A lot of people didn't seem to like these results, but there are two items that my current protocol has a hard time with; one is .45 ACP 230 gr hollow point ammo, none of it expands ever. Two, is .38 Special JHP in a normal weight range 125-158 gr. The fact that my current protocol had a 130 gr .38 Special expand even from a 4" barrel is pretty impressive. Sure I could have gotten expansion in water jugs, but I went with my stricter testing protocol for a reason. Sure I could blow sunshine with exploding bologna, water or I could use no denim....but I don't do testing that way, I test with a difficult protocol to make sure YOU are all safe. Don't hate me for not setting it up to make better results happen.
Winchester Black Talon in 230 gr .45 ACP, and the SXT version that replaced it, both expanded reliably for me in ballistic putty, clay, water and most soil (no ballistic gelatin back then, about 20-25 years ago, so we improvised). It was impressive, full expansion with the extended "talons." Same expansion with the SXT, but the expanded jacket ended with somewhat blunter, rounded ends rather than pointed claws. That, eliminating the black finish and changing the name appeared to be the extent of the changes. Otherwise, same performance as Black Talon. I recall some other hollow points that didn't expand reliably. Some even pinched shut rather than expanding.
I see no issues with the testing, I think this is near perfect. good choice in variables (barrel length/added medium) only think I could think that could improve it is 1-2 more rounds per variable and perhaps stabilized groupings and measurements on paper to gauge accuracy a bit more scientifically. That’s not criticism that’s just what I think would make it literally perfect. Keep up the good work man.
I ain't trying to be the 45 guy buttttttttttt do a 230 grain projectile have to expand 😯 Take your shoes off and just drop 1on your foot, see how that feels.
I realize that I normally drop videos on Friday, but seeing as there are no videos on the .38 Special+P Hydra-Shok Deep, I wanted to get this out there.
Thank you for all the work that you do on these videos. I'm liking the look of the HSD .38 in a 4" barrel for a HD gun. It always seems to be pissing in the wind with .38 where expansion versus penetration converge a huge portion of the time. Another "avoid" in the 2" .38 though. It's a fascinating phenomena occurring over and over and over again with these companies releasing products such as these that have difficulty performing in a usage I would venture to "guess" a majority percentage of users would be buying this product for; concealed carry using a 2" revolver. These demo's save me a lot of time and coin having to sift through the marketing fluff in order to get to a bottom line. Thank you again for the work, the meticulous work and cost, that you do here.
Great testing.Why is it so important?Your video could save someone paying $50.00 on a box of federal hydroshock deep for a .38 snubby they own.Satisfied with the results for 9mm....kinda a relief as its litterally whats in my pocket carry.
... Hydra shok is an AWESOME self defense round ... HST expand extremely well and they come on various weights ... Years ago ,I used to load a lead Hydo shok bullet by Alberts .. great ,accurate round ..also used to load inverted hollow based wadcutters in .38 special ,, also good accurate round for self defense ..
1 thing I like about the blocks Vs JON box / jugs .. you can see what is going on better . With the jugs you can only guess . I don't fully trust jell or jugs , they are just a yard stick that have different properties from each other . They are able to be done over & over to compare different guns & ammo & get some useful data . Thanks for all your time & hard work !!!!!!!!!
Its just nice getting to see someone enjoying shooting .38s. Not on any shelves yet around here, sometimes finding a box or two of .38 auto in small boxes for outrageous prices. Keep up the good work.
Thumbs up! It'd be interesting to see some old 38/44 loads in action. Made obsolete for safety reasons by the 357 mag, they do eject nicely from short stroke 357s.
Federal hydra shok was State Department issue for embassy security and armed contractors during the time I worked in Iraq and Afghanistan. It certainly made us more confident that the Glock 19 we carried would efficiently get the job done if necessary. Not to say FMJ 9mm is useless, but from what I have witnessed it leaves a lot to be desired. I now carry a.45 ACP with 230 grain hydra shocks or HST when I can find it.
At my first department we issued the 147gr and later the 124gr Hydrashock 9mm for duty ammo, both were horrible. I'd rather carry NATO ball. Thankfully we went to the 124gr +p Gold Dot
in my Taurus g2 c 9 mm compact at around 1050 FPS reloading Remington 110 jhp flat tip expansion is a hair from 1/2 inch across. 115 gr xtp around the same 7/16 inch or better. with hard cast swc 130 gr and 127 gr hard cast for target. I sold this gun to my daughter last year to her for a Christmas present and he loves it as i did it was my favorite carry gun. so I bought another just like it a few days ago new . I have no dought it will perform like the first g2c. I don’t buy or trade for undependable junk only constantly working weapons. Nana and papa and you have a great weekend.
Well done. I love your gel block set-up. It made it easy to see the results quickly. I was disappointed in the snub nose results. Wow. We carried .38 special hydro shock ammo while I was a Marine security guard at the 3 different embassies I was based at. They told us hydro shock was provided so that if we missed the target during a fire fight, we would not go through a wall hitting embassy personnel. I don't know how true that was or not.
Excellent shooting. I think both did a great job and were very close. In the short barrel we do see less , but still protecting the good guy. Thanks for ya hard work on these videos. And they sure do show proof. Have a great day.
I have my snubby .38 spl loaded with Federal HST "short barrel" rounds (they kinda look like backwards loaded wadcutters, but you can see a tiny bit of jacket around the edge). Although I've never seen these rounds actually gel-tested, my 9mm pistols are loaded with HSTs, so I figured, why not! Not sure if you've tested the HST 38s or not, and I would send you my box, but since I bought these, I've seen them absolutely NOWHERE...so I'll just hang on to them for now.😉😂
That’s the first I’ve heard of the Hydra shock deep, and I wasn’t really impressed with the expansion, so it’s a no for me. 😉 I had also caution you about shooting non-bonded bullets at steel targets at short distances. I have two scars on my face from copper jackets that ricocheted back and cut me good. I was wearing safety glasses, but they still hit me right in the head, and ironically both grazed my temple on the right side. Bonded bullets usually don’t do that but unbonded bullets are a different story.
Or my story from about 3 years ago, shooting 2x4's and having an entire bullet exit them, hit a tree then come back at probably 100 FPS and hit my forehead.
@wolverinegnr I usually just use 110gr. Critical Defense. I hear good things about the Federal Punch too, but I've not tried it. I rarely carry .38spl, but Sam has some good videos on here of both of those rounds.
I'm confused which happens a lot but if those rounds are deep penetrators they didn't go very far. I liked the video and really appreciate the work you do.and you make learning fun but I'm not sure what I learned other than I like your videos
Yeah it's a bit weird. Maybe they mean after going through a barrier they go 50% deeper than normal ammo? I don't know, but if I recall the description by Federal they just go 50% deeper, period. Which, I guess if you compared to something super light and fast that penetrates 12", then yes it's 50% deeper than that, however by those standards nearly all ammo is 50% deeper than the 12" penetrating rounds.
@@GunSam yeah I considered the barrier situation but if it had been 9n the box you would've told us "The box says something about barriers"so I can kept looking for the better penetration. Perhaps that meant to say extreme felt recoil reduction. Haha
I had a Taurus 85 bought new back in the 90s and it would keyhole a lot....turned out the cylinder charge-holes were WAY OVER-SIZED. That was the last Taurus I ever bought.
Will buy this as soon as I find it - looks to be perfect for a Sig P365, and curious about a 3" revolver, which is what I have. Superb video Sam, as usual.
Thanks for this video. If possible, I would be interested to see you shoot the .38 deeps through a different snubby to see if it has something to do with the way the round is interacting with that particular gun. I had really high hopes that this round would correct some of the deficiencies that come with shooting 38s out of snub revolvers, but the round’s performance in this test was really sub par. In the write up on RevolverGuy from earlier this year, the author really had a favorable impression of the hydrashok deep
Hard cast wadcutters solved the issues 38 has. 9mm is in ball ammo, because the round nose profile does very little damage. Wadcutters have no such problem
Great testing. Looks like the HST is still a better all around performer. In 9mm these bee and improved work great and in .38 spl if you have a 4 in barrel, or a 6 in .357mag to use to stabilize the rounds will be a winner. ♠️☯️🎩
The bullet being aft-heavy for the length of the bullet (because the hollow-point cavity is mostly jacket material), this bullet is not fully stabilized from the short-barrel revolver -- at that distance. You are shooting almost point-blank into the test medium, and the bullet is hitting nose down. Step back a few yards and the bullet will likely stabilize and hit square on. See if that improves expansion from the short barrel revolver. Of course that will not answer for the scenario where the round must be used at close range.
I shot it all up for this test. But all I will say is that I never had a single round of other ammo perform like this from this snub. I mean, it's a Taurus but with all the mediocre Taurus offers, their barrels are pretty good and shoot most ammo really well.
@@GunSam Yes, the ammo is at fault. I had hoped it would be good. When I saw you get mid 900s from the four-inch barrel, I was hopeful for some upper 800s from the two-inch. The 90 fps spread was a let down. They do advertise the 900 fps as being from a 4-inch test barrel. Apparently, this ammo is not designed to work well from the 2-inch barrel. The stabilization issue is rare, and I have seen it only once before. It would be interesting to know if the bullet could perform if that were corrected.
I occasionally saw keyholing from .38 wadcutters at close range (cast and swaged, factory and handloads), but they appeared to stabilize and I saw few or no keyholed shots on paper at 25 yards.
I've noticed in these videos that for 38's even an inch makes a sizable difference in muzzle velocity. I would love to see how 5 and 3 inch (respectively) revolvers would compare to those 9mm lengths, or out of a Taurus G3 4 inch 9mm. Also for the fun of it, if you do reloading, I've seen some where they used 9mm bullets in 38 cal ammo. So you could get an exact weight 9mm vs 38 comparison... lol just popping out ideas. (Love your channel!)
Good video / test. Another .38 Special self defense round that fails. I'm surprised Federal puts this Ammo out because it's failing miserably here . I'm a Jframe .38 guy and I carry Underwood Gold Dots and old school Golden Sabers , both of those perform well .
Take away for me is in this application and setup the 9mm wins. I know its not what you wanted to see but I appreciate your honesty and input. I've watched lots of your videos lately trying to convince myself a revolver would be better than my current 9 autos. Just still not seeing it. I'll likely get one just to have fun with it.
Thanks Sam, that was a really interesting video. I was asking myself the same question you were about a 3" barrel in the .38 spl. I have revolvers in 1.87, 2, 3, 4 and 4.5 inches. Three out of four of the rounds looked really good.👍👍
Another great video Sam! Maybe the FBI should use your protocol's or have you do all of their testing. Just what you want, a bunch of FBI agent's hanging around your property. ( Lol ). Ruger Rich
Hydra-shok deep rounds appear to be great in the 9mm of any barrel length and great in the longer barrel .38. Testing the .380 load may prove to be interesting…
I found some 129 grain +p Hydra Shok on the GT Distributors website. $41/box of 50. But alas, they will only sell it to law enforcement. A Texas company, WTH.
I really need to pick up some of these 9mm rounds just to pull the bullets and reload them into something that will push them much faster, I'm curious how they will act when overdriven I think they will be ok at 1400 fps, 9x23 Winchester, or 9mm Winchester Magnum. But, out of a 350 Legend, I'm wondering at what speed it will grenade at. Damn, I have a lot of weird Winchester...lol
Many would take the 9mm if they had to carry the 9mm because the semiautos have a better design and carrying the extra ammo in a magazine is better than carrying cylinder speed loaders or the rubber strip speed loaders ♦️
What so disappointing is this proves that Federal doesn't even test their loads, or they do and they just don't care. I'll stick with my Underwood Gold Dots and Golden Saber non bonded . Good video
There aren't a lot of tests done on the Remington GS rounds chambered in 38 Sp. but the tests I've seen (for 2 " snubbies) show good results with no jacket separation... probably due to the less than magnum speeds of the round. However, the GS is rated at a higher speed (975 f.ps.) compared to other rounds in its class. Thoughts??
When the PD went to those 9mm BB guns, abandoning the tried and true .357Mags, they issued 9mm Hydrashok. Our officer involved shootings went from 1 to 2 rounds expended to 5 to 6 rounds per suspect. And the lethality rate dropped considerably. Not a fan I'd say.😒
I don't know where it is that you reside, but, I surely cannot aquire the cool ammunition here in California. Not that it's illegal here (not yet anyway) it's just not on the shelves and importing it to a gun shop here is truly expensive as they all require $25 import fee per shipment, per each manufacturer. So it would be paying an extra $25 for the four boxes you had on the table along with the one dollar I have to pay to run an ammo background check along with paying for the ammo and shipping and handling. I really need to move to a free state.
For 9mm, this appears to be a capable round. For 38Spl, less so. And calling it a +P seems to be a stretch. I’ll stick to Buffalo Bore and Underwood for my 2” snubby.
@@GunSam I’d say they need a better powder charge. In this day and age, there is no reason to keep making underpowered .38 Special cartridges. But a better bullet never hurts either.
Just picked up a box of Cor Bon powerball 38 special. Anyone have experience with those? Tools and Target's chrono test was 1300+ fps with 100 grain bullet
I tested it a long time ago but not in gel. Weak is it's middle name. Something like 250 ft lbs in a 3" barrel or something. Not that this is bad, but i'll have to try to find some again.
Sam have you ever tested federal 38 special +p+ in 147 grain hydra shok not sure if that extra + plus makes a difference thanks for your channel it great.
I have yet to find a truly “acceptable” .38spl HP out of a 2” wheel gun. My employer mandates we carry 135 JHP CCI Gold Dots +P’s out of our 2” revolver back up guns. It doesn’t expand at all. It does poke holes in a target and for back up, it will “work” as a hole puncher, when your in close contact of a bad guy whom just disarmed you of your primary sidearm. It’s better than nothing I guess.
@gbt1776FA So that’s what I thought, the HST’s in .38spl. But…. a PD in my neck of the woods (SoCal) did a test of that round and found that the bullet didn’t stabilize out to 25yds. In fact, the bullets were more like “flyers” and keyholed all over the place like a huge shotgun pattern. The results of those local tests spread like wildfire in the LE weapons community in my part of the state and my department (10,000+ sworn) said “nope,” no HSTs in 38spl. I found it odd because for our 9mm’s and .45’ duty pistols, the HST is our only issued duty round. For .380 back up guns, we can ONLY carry the 99gr HST. But for the .38 back-ups, we can’t carry the HST round. Weird. My department weapons training said the Speer Gold Dot .38 at least shoots straight and deep out of a 2” back-up gun, even though it doesn’t expand for crap. They were more concerned about “flyers” going who knows where and missing the target by a mile. HST’s out of a 2” wheel gun are evidently inherently inaccurate at 25yds. Too much of a liability for LE agencies.
I would recommend underwood Xtreme defender. I think with a snub having such a short barrel it will be hard to get a hollow point to both expand well and penetrate 12 plus inches.
@@justinmeeker1358 You’re absolutely correct about the expansion and (lack of) penetration from a .38spl out of a J-Frame sized revolver. It is interesting to note however that the .38spl, even non +P’s have been κiιιiηg people for decades, even with just plain “round nosed lead.” Proves what we’ve all known for a long long time: shot placement is king.
Our Agency recommended carry ammunition for off duty/backup revolvers was .38 special Remington 158 grain +P SWCHP. It was a softer lead bullet which expanded well. The NYPD has an excellent record involving the 135 grain +P Speer Gold Dots used in snub nosed revolvers. The Federal +P .38 Special 130 HST was tested , it performed well in testing from snubnosed revolvers. Problem was reloading using speedloaders. Many agencies are happy with the 9mm 147 grain HST.
The S&W M&P 9 mm probably the best gun you ever bought...impressive shooting with the snubbie... Glad to see you didn't wear the Alex Baldwin Halloween mask... lol
Have you tried the load out of a different snubby, say a Smith? I really think it may be the gun you are using. I’ve had zero key holing issues with this load out of my J’s.
In .357 Mag it seems that the Gold Dot 135 gr Short Barrel is about as good as it gets. For .38 Special I will carry a Buffalo Bore .38+P. Doesn't really matter if it's an XTP or TAC-XP, just anything Buffalo Bore+P does well.
@@GunSam Have you ever tested the Double Tap .38 +P Barnes Tac XP load? I noticed that the bullet looks different as it has a wider opening than the more narrow profile of the BB and Corbon loads. Velocity seems about the same as the BB load.
That's a nice 9mm cartridge. It's good to know it doesn't perform well in a snubby, which doesn't surprise me as the 605 only has a 2" barrel and not the best forcing cone. I actually have been trying to think of a way to improve its forcing cone, but is it worth it? Or more sensible to just get a longer snubby? Well... Who knows.
@@GunSam I have the opposite problem. Lower velocity than average. Turns out the rear of the barrel isn't cut square and the gap on the worst side is 0.012. Considering sending it back to S&W for service vs having it done locally. I'm leaning towards having it done locally since its probably 15 years old and likely Smith won't do warranty work on it, despite having less than 200 rounds through it.
nice comparison,but. could you go to a higher speed freeze frame so we could see the the diameter/expansion of the wound cavity. i mean whats better 16 inches of pen with quarter size cavity or a 10 inch pen with 2 inch cavity expansion
The issue is that in order to do that i'd have to turn the camera on and off as I use the same one for the side view and then description of the damage. That's a recipe for forgetting to turn it back on and ruining a video.
I am not an expert at online purchasing. I mean, you can try stuff like Bass Pro/Cabela's if you have one near you as you can order online and ship to your local store free.
I would be curious to see these sort of tests being done with a 3" barrel. If 2" proved to be the let off for performance with the Hydra Shok Deep, would 3" still sit in the golden zone?
That key holing issue is very unexpected and never saw that before in a snub even with longer, heavier bullets. I noticed the overall length of these Hydro-shock Deep loads are longer than usual for their weight and have less lead up front causing them to be more back heavy. Wonder if that is what caused the instability. Long and rear heavy so trying to flip around backwards due to insufficient spin in short barrel?
Well...that whose ...depressing. Anemic 38 Spl and anemic 9mm ...like Im watching "New age Man " in our "New World order". Long live 124grs Gold Dot +P in 9mm and 158grs Hydra shok in 357 !!
If I had a short 38 , I would use a SWC-hp , soft enough & fast enough to expand well . You did a test on one that was about 380 +/- Ft/lbs vs this at 225 +/- ft/lbs . Very few rounds tested did well in the short 38 . This will work th-cam.com/video/mPnCWwXHuIY/w-d-xo.html
@@danoneill2846 I am in the market for some more hot .38 ammo. I want to do a funny video with regular 9mm ammo VS really hot .38 ammo and call it "The 9mm is always more Powerful than the .38 Special - Except for when it's not"
It would be great if there was a simple, one line summary in the description for those with low bandwidth. The whole video could have been 1 danged sentence.
From this video and others you have done convinces me that the 9mm is a better cartridge than the .38 or .38+P. It appears that the 9mm rounds are almost always faster than the 38's and with similar size bullets it comes down to velocity. It always amazed me how the 38+P rounds have a poor reputation for getting the job done, while a 357 (exact same bullet) has the best ballistics of any cartridge in history used in law enforcement. Again, it all comes down to velocity. Give me a magnum every time!
Truth be told, a well loaded .38 Special+P and 9mm, often even 9mm+P are about the same power, and if you happened to get one of these hot loaded .38's you would be "better" than the 9mm as the hollow cavity is bigger, bigger expansion and energy dump. But the sad thing is that nearly no normal SAAMI member companies load .38 Special+P that hot because of the really old antique revolvers that can chamber .38 Special.
I know what you are saying Sam. It just seems that on the 38/9mm comparisons you have done, the 9mm usually had more velocity that the 38's and 38+P loads. Your point about the lack of new 38+P loads is true. Everything is about the 9mm and they aren't making better 38 ammo to compete. I will stick with my magnum!
Major disappointment in the snub. I think manufacturers need to only worry about .38 snub loads because if it work, it will always shine in a full size.
I think it wouldn't be that difficult to make a great snub load. Typically about a 110 gr bullet will give the velocity needed to expand by giving up a tad penetration. Pushed just a bit hotter you get everything, like a 110 gr@950 FPS in a snub with a decent bullet (not an XTP or similar) will do it all, it should get over 12" penetration and .55" expansion.
A lot of people didn't seem to like these results, but there are two items that my current protocol has a hard time with; one is .45 ACP 230 gr hollow point ammo, none of it expands ever. Two, is .38 Special JHP in a normal weight range 125-158 gr. The fact that my current protocol had a 130 gr .38 Special expand even from a 4" barrel is pretty impressive. Sure I could have gotten expansion in water jugs, but I went with my stricter testing protocol for a reason. Sure I could blow sunshine with exploding bologna, water or I could use no denim....but I don't do testing that way, I test with a difficult protocol to make sure YOU are all safe. Don't hate me for not setting it up to make better results happen.
Winchester Black Talon in 230 gr .45 ACP, and the SXT version that replaced it, both expanded reliably for me in ballistic putty, clay, water and most soil (no ballistic gelatin back then, about 20-25 years ago, so we improvised). It was impressive, full expansion with the extended "talons." Same expansion with the SXT, but the expanded jacket ended with somewhat blunter, rounded ends rather than pointed claws. That, eliminating the black finish and changing the name appeared to be the extent of the changes. Otherwise, same performance as Black Talon.
I recall some other hollow points that didn't expand reliably. Some even pinched shut rather than expanding.
thanks for the video .230 grain HST is a reliable expander for sure regardless of the test or barrel length . You should give that round a whirl Sam .
I see no issues with the testing, I think this is near perfect. good choice in variables (barrel length/added medium) only think I could think that could improve it is 1-2 more rounds per variable and perhaps stabilized groupings and measurements on paper to gauge accuracy a bit more scientifically. That’s not criticism that’s just what I think would make it literally perfect. Keep up the good work man.
I ain't trying to be the 45 guy buttttttttttt do a 230 grain projectile have to expand 😯 Take your shoes off and just drop 1on your foot, see how that feels.
At 2 feet per second.....
I realize that I normally drop videos on Friday, but seeing as there are no videos on the .38 Special+P Hydra-Shok Deep, I wanted to get this out there.
Check the FPS in the description of the .38 Hydrashok. (Typo alert)
@@chrish.4067 What do you mean? edit, I see it now, thanks
Carried Hydro shock for years, now that wally doesn't carry them, have to order online so I've been using Silvertip and arx.
And once again i stand by my 158Gr. semi wadcutters in my snub .38's
Thank you for all the work that you do on these videos. I'm liking the look of the HSD .38 in a 4" barrel for a HD gun. It always seems to be pissing in the wind with .38 where expansion versus penetration converge a huge portion of the time. Another "avoid" in the 2" .38 though. It's a fascinating phenomena occurring over and over and over again with these companies releasing products such as these that have difficulty performing in a usage I would venture to "guess" a majority percentage of users would be buying this product for; concealed carry using a 2" revolver. These demo's save me a lot of time and coin having to sift through the marketing fluff in order to get to a bottom line. Thank you again for the work, the meticulous work and cost, that you do here.
Great testing.Why is it so important?Your video could save someone paying $50.00 on a box of federal hydroshock deep for a .38 snubby they own.Satisfied with the results for 9mm....kinda a relief as its litterally whats in my pocket carry.
... Hydra shok is an AWESOME self defense round ... HST expand extremely well and they come on various weights ... Years ago ,I used to load a lead Hydo shok bullet by Alberts .. great ,accurate round ..also used to load inverted hollow based wadcutters in .38 special ,, also good accurate round for self defense ..
Re' wad cutters, especially if loaded to +P or +P+ levels in 38 Special. No worries. I shoot them in a 357 Snub.
1 thing I like about the blocks Vs JON box / jugs .. you can see what is going on better . With the jugs you can only guess . I don't fully trust jell or jugs , they are just a yard stick that have different properties from each other . They are able to be done over & over to compare different guns & ammo & get some useful data . Thanks for all your time & hard work !!!!!!!!!
Its just nice getting to see someone enjoying shooting .38s. Not on any shelves yet around here, sometimes finding a box or two of .38 auto in small boxes for outrageous prices. Keep up the good work.
Thumbs up! It'd be interesting to see some old 38/44 loads in action. Made obsolete for safety reasons by the 357 mag, they do eject nicely from short stroke 357s.
Federal hydra shok was State Department issue for embassy security and armed contractors during the time I worked in Iraq and Afghanistan. It certainly made us more confident that the Glock 19 we carried would efficiently get the job done if necessary. Not to say FMJ 9mm is useless, but from what I have witnessed it leaves a lot to be desired. I now carry a.45 ACP with 230 grain hydra shocks or HST when I can find it.
At my first department we issued the 147gr and later the 124gr Hydrashock 9mm for duty ammo, both were horrible. I'd rather carry NATO ball. Thankfully we went to the 124gr +p Gold Dot
in my Taurus g2 c 9 mm compact at around 1050 FPS reloading Remington 110 jhp flat tip expansion is a hair from 1/2 inch across. 115 gr xtp around the same 7/16 inch or better. with hard cast swc 130 gr and 127 gr hard cast for target. I sold this gun to my daughter last year to her for a Christmas present and he loves it as i did it was my favorite carry gun. so I bought another just like it a few days ago new . I have no dought it will perform like the first g2c. I don’t buy or trade for undependable junk only constantly working weapons. Nana and papa and you have a great weekend.
I had high hopes for the 38 out of the snubby based on its performance from the four inch tube. Great video. Informative.
Thanks.
Well done. I love your gel block set-up. It made it easy to see the results quickly. I was disappointed in the snub nose results. Wow. We carried .38 special hydro shock ammo while I was a Marine security guard at the 3 different embassies I was based at. They told us hydro shock was provided so that if we missed the target during a fire fight, we would not go through a wall hitting embassy personnel. I don't know how true that was or not.
That was some good shooting Sam.
Thanks.
Excellent shooting. I think both did a great job and were very close. In the short barrel we do see less , but still protecting the good guy. Thanks for ya hard work on these videos. And they sure do show proof. Have a great day.
Thank you.
Nice shooting as usual. Cool video thanks.
Thanks.
Always the best ammunition reviews. Just another i can't find or afford. Thanks
I have my snubby .38 spl loaded with Federal HST "short barrel" rounds (they kinda look like backwards loaded wadcutters, but you can see a tiny bit of jacket around the edge). Although I've never seen these rounds actually gel-tested, my 9mm pistols are loaded with HSTs, so I figured, why not! Not sure if you've tested the HST 38s or not, and I would send you my box, but since I bought these, I've seen them absolutely NOWHERE...so I'll just hang on to them for now.😉😂
MY FAVORITE AMMO!
Another day of binge watching all your revolver vids. So far, Hornady CD in 38+p still the winner.
I would love to see your tests with 380 hydra-shok deep.
That’s the first I’ve heard of the Hydra shock deep, and I wasn’t really impressed with the expansion, so it’s a no for me. 😉 I had also caution you about shooting non-bonded bullets at steel targets at short distances. I have two scars on my face from copper jackets that ricocheted back and cut me good. I was wearing safety glasses, but they still hit me right in the head, and ironically both grazed my temple on the right side. Bonded bullets usually don’t do that but unbonded bullets are a different story.
I did a test shot 44 sp jhp into a very rocky hill from 25 ft +/- a lead ?? frag hit me in the wrist & gave me a small cut FYI .
Or my story from about 3 years ago, shooting 2x4's and having an entire bullet exit them, hit a tree then come back at probably 100 FPS and hit my forehead.
@@GunSam I have to admit it’s very difficult to not make the obvious joke of you being protected by a hard head. 😉🤣😂🤣
What is the best 38 special round for personal protection. I carry a Ruger LCR 357 Thanks
@wolverinegnr I usually just use 110gr. Critical Defense. I hear good things about the Federal Punch too, but I've not tried it. I rarely carry .38spl, but Sam has some good videos on here of both of those rounds.
Very good results with the 9... Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
I'm confused which happens a lot but if those rounds are deep penetrators they didn't go very far.
I liked the video and really appreciate the work you do.and you make learning fun but I'm not sure what I learned other than I like your videos
Yeah it's a bit weird. Maybe they mean after going through a barrier they go 50% deeper than normal ammo? I don't know, but if I recall the description by Federal they just go 50% deeper, period. Which, I guess if you compared to something super light and fast that penetrates 12", then yes it's 50% deeper than that, however by those standards nearly all ammo is 50% deeper than the 12" penetrating rounds.
@@GunSam yeah I considered the barrier situation but if it had been 9n the box you would've told us "The box says something about barriers"so I can kept looking for the better penetration. Perhaps that meant to say extreme felt recoil reduction. Haha
I had a Taurus 85 bought new back in the 90s and it would keyhole a lot....turned out the cylinder charge-holes were WAY OVER-SIZED. That was the last Taurus I ever bought.
Will buy this as soon as I find it - looks to be perfect for a Sig P365, and curious about a 3" revolver, which is what I have. Superb video Sam, as usual.
Thanks for this video. If possible, I would be interested to see you shoot the .38 deeps through a different snubby to see if it has something to do with the way the round is interacting with that particular gun. I had really high hopes that this round would correct some of the deficiencies that come with shooting 38s out of snub revolvers, but the round’s performance in this test was really sub par. In the write up on RevolverGuy from earlier this year, the author really had a favorable impression of the hydrashok deep
I never had any other ammo shoot weird from this snub.
Hard cast wadcutters solved the issues 38 has. 9mm is in ball ammo, because the round nose profile does very little damage. Wadcutters have no such problem
only thing i took away from this is ytou have a beautiful property and im jealous.
Thank you sir 🙏
This has actually been the design for Federals 32 acp loading for over ten years
Great testing. Looks like the HST is still a better all around performer. In 9mm these bee and improved work great and in .38 spl if you have a 4 in barrel, or a 6 in .357mag to use to stabilize the rounds will be a winner. ♠️☯️🎩
Thanks for the vid. Looks like I m going to stick with the 129 grain +P Hydroshok I have in our 2.5 inch 38 spcl. Seems to be a gold standard.
Great video. Very nice detailed analysis.
The bullet being aft-heavy for the length of the bullet (because the hollow-point cavity is mostly jacket material), this bullet is not fully stabilized from the short-barrel revolver -- at that distance. You are shooting almost point-blank into the test medium, and the bullet is hitting nose down. Step back a few yards and the bullet will likely stabilize and hit square on. See if that improves expansion from the short barrel revolver. Of course that will not answer for the scenario where the round must be used at close range.
I shot it all up for this test. But all I will say is that I never had a single round of other ammo perform like this from this snub. I mean, it's a Taurus but with all the mediocre Taurus offers, their barrels are pretty good and shoot most ammo really well.
@@GunSam Yes, the ammo is at fault. I had hoped it would be good. When I saw you get mid 900s from the four-inch barrel, I was hopeful for some upper 800s from the two-inch. The 90 fps spread was a let down. They do advertise the 900 fps as being from a 4-inch test barrel. Apparently, this ammo is not designed to work well from the 2-inch barrel. The stabilization issue is rare, and I have seen it only once before. It would be interesting to know if the bullet could perform if that were corrected.
I occasionally saw keyholing from .38 wadcutters at close range (cast and swaged, factory and handloads), but they appeared to stabilize and I saw few or no keyholed shots on paper at 25 yards.
I've noticed in these videos that for 38's even an inch makes a sizable difference in muzzle velocity. I would love to see how 5 and 3 inch (respectively) revolvers would compare to those 9mm lengths, or out of a Taurus G3 4 inch 9mm. Also for the fun of it, if you do reloading, I've seen some where they used 9mm bullets in 38 cal ammo. So you could get an exact weight 9mm vs 38 comparison... lol just popping out ideas. (Love your channel!)
Great video best on the web. I always learn something. Thanks Brother
Thanks!
The HS Deep 38 spc. needs about 50 fps more speed for it to be effective from a 2" barrel. I have an LCR 357, so that would be a sweet round for me.
Awesome channel
I learn something good every episode!
Good video / test. Another .38 Special self defense round that fails. I'm surprised Federal puts this Ammo out because it's failing miserably here . I'm a Jframe .38 guy and I carry Underwood Gold Dots and old school Golden Sabers , both of those perform well .
They want to make money on their newest bullet design.
If you want a 38 special to work, get wadcutters.
You should do more ballistic tests with the original 129 grain plus p hydra-shock
Take away for me is in this application and setup the 9mm wins. I know its not what you wanted to see but I appreciate your honesty and input. I've watched lots of your videos lately trying to convince myself a revolver would be better than my current 9 autos. Just still not seeing it. I'll likely get one just to have fun with it.
try underwood ammo he loads them to the max pressure possible and you will see a different result
Thanks Sam, that was a really interesting video. I was asking myself the same question you were about a 3" barrel in the .38 spl. I have revolvers in 1.87, 2, 3, 4 and 4.5 inches. Three out of four of the rounds looked really good.👍👍
I need to pick one up soon. It would compare well to my 4" autos. I think maybe even that Taurus 3" .38 Special only might do okay.
Other than the snubbie the HS deep looks pretty impressive. Still sticking with HST. Thanks for sharing!
Another great video Sam! Maybe the FBI should use your protocol's or have you do all of their testing. Just what you want, a bunch of FBI agent's hanging around your property. ( Lol ). Ruger Rich
Thanks. I have it hard enough if deputies come into my house. They love my reloading and man cave entry way.
@@GunSam boy I would love to see your man cave.
Great video.. been carrying hydra shok 9mm for years ... I’ll have to get those.38+p
Thanks.
darn the .38 didn't have too much penetration and that yucky keyholing, thats what I usually carry too ! At least it has consistency
Cool video thanks
Thanks for watching!
Hydra-shok deep rounds appear to be great in the 9mm of any barrel length and great in the longer barrel .38. Testing the .380 load may prove to be interesting…
Yeah, maybe.
I found some 129 grain +p Hydra Shok on the GT Distributors website. $41/box of 50. But alas, they will only sell it to law enforcement. A Texas company, WTH.
4" .38 MDF 14" .517=2.94 cu in" Tissue Crush Volume of a Cylinder 2" 10.75" .358
I noticed that you have a natural pull to the right.
I really need to pick up some of these 9mm rounds just to pull the bullets and reload them into something that will push them much faster, I'm curious how they will act when overdriven
I think they will be ok at 1400 fps, 9x23 Winchester, or 9mm Winchester Magnum.
But, out of a 350 Legend, I'm wondering at what speed it will grenade at.
Damn, I have a lot of weird Winchester...lol
Many would take the 9mm if they had to carry the 9mm because the semiautos have a better design and carrying the extra ammo in a magazine is better than carrying cylinder speed loaders or the rubber strip speed loaders ♦️
What so disappointing is this proves that Federal doesn't even test their loads, or they do and they just don't care. I'll stick with my Underwood Gold Dots and Golden Saber non bonded . Good video
Nah, these companies design ALL of these bullets specifically for 9mm. Then, they just size it up or down for the other calibers.
There aren't a lot of tests done on the Remington GS rounds chambered in 38 Sp. but the tests I've seen (for 2 " snubbies) show good results with no jacket separation... probably due to the less than magnum speeds of the round. However, the GS is rated at a higher speed (975 f.ps.) compared to other rounds in its class. Thoughts??
Very informative. I carry 38spl not +P and shoot ball ammo. I don't think I will be changing my ammo as my revolver has a 2.5 " barrel.
There can be pretty good ammo for that, you just need to find the right one.
When the PD went to those 9mm BB guns, abandoning the tried and true .357Mags, they issued 9mm Hydrashok. Our officer involved shootings went from 1 to 2 rounds expended to 5 to 6 rounds per suspect. And the lethality rate dropped considerably. Not a fan I'd say.😒
Indeed, sir. Same experience here. Although, when we went with 115 bullets flying at ~1.350 fps out of full sized handguns, things changed a lot.
I don't know where it is that you reside, but, I surely cannot aquire the cool ammunition here in California. Not that it's illegal here (not yet anyway) it's just not on the shelves and importing it to a gun shop here is truly expensive as they all require $25 import fee per shipment, per each manufacturer. So it would be paying an extra $25 for the four boxes you had on the table along with the one dollar I have to pay to run an ammo background check along with paying for the ammo and shipping and handling.
I really need to move to a free state.
For 9mm, this appears to be a capable round.
For 38Spl, less so. And calling it a +P seems to be a stretch.
I’ll stick to Buffalo Bore and Underwood for my 2” snubby.
Compared to other standard companies it did have +P velocity, just barely. But they need a better bullet.
@@GunSam
I’d say they need a better powder charge.
In this day and age, there is no reason to keep making underpowered .38 Special cartridges.
But a better bullet never hurts either.
You might want to test the 380 Federal Hydra Shok deep.
Would be interesting to run that 38 through a different snub; like a S&W
Just picked up a box of Cor Bon powerball 38 special. Anyone have experience with those? Tools and Target's chrono test was 1300+ fps with 100 grain bullet
I have some Hi-Shok 115 gr. 9mm. I bought it real cheap pre pandemic and never shot it. I've always wondered how it would do in a gel test.
I tested it a long time ago but not in gel. Weak is it's middle name. Something like 250 ft lbs in a 3" barrel or something. Not that this is bad, but i'll have to try to find some again.
There was some 147 grain Hi-Shok floating around online recently. Haven't seen any tests with it on TH-cam.
I read your comment wrong. I thought it said Hydrashok. I never ran hishok.
Sam have you ever tested federal 38 special +p+ in 147 grain hydra shok not sure if that extra + plus makes a difference thanks for your channel it great.
I wish Federal still made the expanding full metal jackets..
I was gonna laugh at you, then I remembered them all the sudden lol, like Bulldog or something like that. I've never had an opportunity to test them.
I have yet to find a truly “acceptable” .38spl HP out of a 2” wheel gun. My employer mandates we carry 135 JHP CCI Gold Dots +P’s out of our 2” revolver back up guns. It doesn’t expand at all. It does poke holes in a target and for back up, it will “work” as a hole puncher, when your in close contact of a bad guy whom just disarmed you of your primary sidearm. It’s better than nothing I guess.
@gbt1776FA So that’s what I thought, the HST’s in .38spl. But…. a PD in my neck of the woods (SoCal) did a test of that round and found that the bullet didn’t stabilize out to 25yds. In fact, the bullets were more like “flyers” and keyholed all over the place like a huge shotgun pattern. The results of those local tests spread like wildfire in the LE weapons community in my part of the state and my department (10,000+ sworn) said “nope,” no HSTs in 38spl.
I found it odd because for our 9mm’s and .45’ duty pistols, the HST is our only issued duty round. For .380 back up guns, we can ONLY carry the 99gr HST. But for the .38 back-ups, we can’t carry the HST round. Weird. My department weapons training said the Speer Gold Dot .38 at least shoots straight and deep out of a 2” back-up gun, even though it doesn’t expand for crap. They were more concerned about “flyers” going who knows where and missing the target by a mile. HST’s out of a 2” wheel gun are evidently inherently inaccurate at 25yds. Too much of a liability for LE agencies.
I would recommend underwood Xtreme defender. I think with a snub having such a short barrel it will be hard to get a hollow point to both expand well and penetrate 12 plus inches.
@@justinmeeker1358 You’re absolutely correct about the expansion and (lack of) penetration from a .38spl out of a J-Frame sized revolver. It is interesting to note however that the .38spl, even non +P’s have been κiιιiηg people for decades, even with just plain “round nosed lead.” Proves what we’ve all known for a long long time: shot placement is king.
Our Agency recommended carry ammunition for off duty/backup revolvers was .38 special Remington 158 grain +P SWCHP. It was a softer lead bullet which expanded well. The NYPD has an excellent record involving the 135 grain +P Speer Gold Dots used in snub nosed revolvers.
The Federal +P .38 Special 130 HST was tested , it performed well in testing from snubnosed revolvers. Problem was reloading using speedloaders.
Many agencies are happy with the 9mm 147 grain HST.
The S&W M&P 9 mm probably the best gun you ever bought...impressive shooting with the snubbie... Glad to see you didn't wear the Alex Baldwin Halloween mask... lol
The 686 is probably the best, but maybe it's the second best. I'll let it slide that it's an auto because a revolver company made it.
Yeah that M&P 2.0 5” FDE is an awesome gun indeed. I have two and love them, even though I’m still a Glock fanboy junkie.
Does Keyholing mean the bullet rotates and continues it’s path on it’s side?
What’s the drawback? Less penetration, expansion?
Have you tried the load out of a different snubby, say a Smith? I really think it may be the gun you are using. I’ve had zero key holing issues with this load out of my J’s.
Could you do the new Winchester version of the black talon ?
Exatamente teste.
Good shooting Sam and good info what ammo do you recommend for the 605 in.38 special and.357 mag
In .357 Mag it seems that the Gold Dot 135 gr Short Barrel is about as good as it gets. For .38 Special I will carry a Buffalo Bore .38+P. Doesn't really matter if it's an XTP or TAC-XP, just anything Buffalo Bore+P does well.
@@GunSam Have you ever tested the Double Tap .38 +P Barnes Tac XP load? I noticed that the bullet looks different as it has a wider opening than the more narrow profile of the BB and Corbon loads. Velocity seems about the same as the BB load.
Maybe a try with the jugs to see a different behaviour?
That's a nice 9mm cartridge. It's good to know it doesn't perform well in a snubby, which doesn't surprise me as the 605 only has a 2" barrel and not the best forcing cone. I actually have been trying to think of a way to improve its forcing cone, but is it worth it? Or more sensible to just get a longer snubby? Well... Who knows.
it's not a bad snub and often gets higher than average velocity, but the thing is I think it might just not like some ammo.
@@GunSam I agree. Application is paramount and this ammo is better used in a longer .38spl barrel. Might be powder composition.
Rebarrel with a slightly longer barrel if available.
@@GunSam I have the opposite problem. Lower velocity than average. Turns out the rear of the barrel isn't cut square and the gap on the worst side is 0.012. Considering sending it back to S&W for service vs having it done locally. I'm leaning towards having it done locally since its probably 15 years old and likely Smith won't do warranty work on it, despite having less than 200 rounds through it.
nice comparison,but. could you go to a higher speed freeze frame so we could see the the diameter/expansion of the wound cavity. i mean whats better 16 inches of pen with quarter size cavity or a 10 inch pen with 2 inch cavity expansion
The issue is that in order to do that i'd have to turn the camera on and off as I use the same one for the side view and then description of the damage. That's a recipe for forgetting to turn it back on and ruining a video.
Good video.
Thanks!
3in would be minimum Barrel length I would want for 38sp...
Trying to locate a 66 combat magnum to buy. Any secrete places you know where I can find one in 2.75’’
I am not an expert at online purchasing. I mean, you can try stuff like Bass Pro/Cabela's if you have one near you as you can order online and ship to your local store free.
Love your vids, especially on revolvers, so thanks. Are you able to find any 327 ammo , not costing a buck?
I would be curious to see these sort of tests being done with a 3" barrel. If 2" proved to be the let off for performance with the Hydra Shok Deep, would 3" still sit in the golden zone?
That key holing issue is very unexpected and never saw that before in a snub even with longer, heavier bullets.
I noticed the overall length of these Hydro-shock Deep loads are longer than usual for their weight and have less lead up front causing them to be more back heavy. Wonder if that is what caused the instability. Long and rear heavy so trying to flip around backwards due to insufficient spin in short barrel?
Longer need faster twist to stabilize.
Well...that whose ...depressing. Anemic 38 Spl and anemic 9mm ...like Im watching "New age Man " in our "New World order".
Long live 124grs Gold Dot +P in 9mm and 158grs Hydra shok in 357 !!
This is the best post on the internet. HA! HA! Dad joke!
Love your videos but as much shooting u do im surprised u have to look at your holster to put your gun in the holster.
I probably wouldn't need to. But wearing a coat that might be covering the opening, well I kind of want to know that information.
No one ever really tests any Corbon DPX 110 grain in .38 +p
Sam!'
Where are you finding the hydro deep?
It was at Midwayusa for a few days before it sold out.
These bullets look great in 9mm. No good in 38special.
If I had a short 38 , I would use a SWC-hp , soft enough & fast enough to expand well . You did a test on one that was about 380 +/- Ft/lbs vs this at 225 +/- ft/lbs . Very few rounds tested did well in the short 38 . This will work th-cam.com/video/mPnCWwXHuIY/w-d-xo.html
Any test is a good test , you may not learn what you thought you would learn .
@@danoneill2846 I am in the market for some more hot .38 ammo. I want to do a funny video with regular 9mm ammo VS really hot .38 ammo and call it "The 9mm is always more Powerful than the .38 Special - Except for when it's not"
Federal is making good ammo . Are you still reloading any ?
I haven't reloaded in a long time because I never find primers at my store.
You are not kidding about low recoil. It appears your handguns are only jumping like you're shooting a 22.
Man those new tumble on impact federal 38 special are great . Now more relying on fort Scott! 😅
It would be great if there was a simple, one line summary in the description for those with low bandwidth. The whole video could have been 1 danged sentence.
From this video and others you have done convinces me that the 9mm is a better cartridge than the .38 or .38+P. It appears that the 9mm rounds are almost always faster than the 38's and with similar size bullets it comes down to velocity. It always amazed me how the 38+P rounds have a poor reputation for getting the job done, while a 357 (exact same bullet) has the best ballistics of any cartridge in history used in law enforcement. Again, it all comes down to velocity. Give me a magnum every time!
Truth be told, a well loaded .38 Special+P and 9mm, often even 9mm+P are about the same power, and if you happened to get one of these hot loaded .38's you would be "better" than the 9mm as the hollow cavity is bigger, bigger expansion and energy dump. But the sad thing is that nearly no normal SAAMI member companies load .38 Special+P that hot because of the really old antique revolvers that can chamber .38 Special.
I know what you are saying Sam. It just seems that on the 38/9mm comparisons you have done, the 9mm usually had more velocity that the 38's and 38+P loads. Your point about the lack of new 38+P loads is true. Everything is about the 9mm and they aren't making better 38 ammo to compete. I will stick with my magnum!
I just fking bought 4 boxes of this for my j frame 😭
Don’t feel too bad, I just bought 10! 🤦🏻♂️
Bump
Major disappointment in the snub. I think manufacturers need to only worry about .38 snub loads because if it work, it will always shine in a full size.
I think it wouldn't be that difficult to make a great snub load. Typically about a 110 gr bullet will give the velocity needed to expand by giving up a tad penetration. Pushed just a bit hotter you get everything, like a 110 gr@950 FPS in a snub with a decent bullet (not an XTP or similar) will do it all, it should get over 12" penetration and .55" expansion.
Algorithm
👍🙂
Still not impressed with the .38. If you want some good keyhole action try a 200gr boolit.