It seems as most discrepancies are empathy driven, I would argue that the empathy driven narrative has actually caused more harm to disparate communities than racial ones have in the last 50 years; ie welfare, and fatherless homes as an incentive for single mothers; the precedent of child support(also predatory for women)((empathy driven)) Are disparate communities harmed more under empathy driven policies? (examples above) How expansive can empathy be? As a benefit for a family(?) a community(?) a society(?) a State(?) a Nation(?) Globally? Empathy can only extend to familial benefit's as far as i can see it: we would call that communisms; also that is as far as it works. Anything beyond would be considered cooperation, cooperation is a negotiated reciprocal benefit.
It’s hard not to respect Destiny. So many political streamers just stay in their lane, posturing to ‘their crowd’ - if you watch a Destiny video, more often than not he’s debating someone he disagrees with & often with an audience who wouldn’t ordinarily be friendly to him. These conversations are how we can move forward & find common ground.
@@braedonwilk Mismatched blues with black shoes was kinda painful. Some might say that he just doesn't care, but flagrantly breaking all the rules almost seems like he's intentionally messing with the people that give him a hard time about it.
I find it funny how this is already the second time destiny tries to guess a postition and is way too fact minded, the the other guy just uses conspiracy terms.
I feel like destiny guessed his first thing in the first try? But the other guy said no? It was basically the same idea of "the institutions are too corrupt"
Regardless of what Destiny said Peter would have said no because he seems to view his opposition being able to clearly state his pov a form of loss or concession.
Good point. I started getting annoyed that Reid had to run back and forth between them, and was wondering why they don't just have two (or three) mikes. Your answer is great. I should have realised that myself.
@@jacobstall1588 Can't flesh out ideas when your opponent is constantly interrupting you. This isn't perfect, but it's the best format if we want to allow each sides to "flesh out" their ideas without interruption.
LOL, it is one of my favorite parks downtown and the science museum on the other side is not too bad; really cool aquarium. There's a good documentary about one of the buildings in the background on youtube(wish I could remember the name of it, its about the building with the X frame looking thing). The building was designed so that the inside doesnt have major supports and the "exoskeleton" support system allowed for interior condos/units to have much more open floor plans. Its the first(maybe only) building like it and sadly the architect died just a few months before it was complete because a hurricane delayed the construction and she died before they wrapped it all up - sad story but cool story and design.
@@vitaminKsGood4u Nice, sounds fascinating. What I really love though is the way the paved path lined with palm trees bisects the shot directly into the horizon during the straight on shots, it looks really expertly done. Thanks brother, peace.
Love seeing you participate in the epistemology game, Peter! It's good to hear you formulate your ideas and opinions with data to back up your reasoning. Whatever people think about Destiny, he's got more balls than Matt Walsh and is willing to engage in conversations, instead of just judging others from the comfort of his office. 👍
Destiny didn't say that Nazis don't change their minds. He was talking about a specific person they talked to before (but he was trying to point out a archetype of person) and he meant when you hold specific views such as a Nazi and you say that there isn't any single piece of evidence out there that could change your mind, what do you expect besides the fact that people will call you a Nazi in this case. He was trying to say that it's good to keep in mind what views can change your mind such that people could provide you that evidence and engage in conversation with you vs you saying there is no such evidence and the only option left is for people to call you a Nazi and move on.
I like this format. It gives you a lot of extra information about the knowledge both parties have about the opposite side with that intro and gives clear information on the arguments instead of it just being a shouting match.
The SAT was designed to identify students with excellent grades from inferior high schools who are indeed capable of succeeding at previously high-performing universities like the Ivies. Students who got high grades at inferior high schools and scored low on the SAT were very likely to wash out of demanding university programs. Students who got high grades at inferior high schools and scored high on the SAT were very likely to do well in demanding university programs. This was very important in ending racial discrimination in university admissions during the 1960s. High SAT scores are a great help to students from poor economic backgrounds fighting against racial discrimination.
This was the theory, but the statistics ended up disagreeing with this. The graduation rates of students from “inferior schools” was higher for those with lower SAT scores compared with those with lower SAT scores from “better schools.” The low testing students from “inferior schools” did better than those from “better” schools.
@@francisgg7046 This is likely because you need a higher IQ to score a 1400 on the SAT if you went to an inferior school than you do going to a better school. A high IQ individual will not get an average SAT score if then went to a great high school. How good your High school is inflates your SAT score. When the student who went to a poor high school gets an SAT score of 1400, they obtained the score through self drive and or high IQ. Self drive and high IQ are the most important factors for success/graduation rates in college.
I find it hilarious that Destiny tried so hard to steelman what he thought Peter's argument was gonna be, when in reality it was literally just "burn them down because they're woke" lmfao 😂
There's something about the idea of being "figured out" or "pinned down" in a debate or argument that can feel unappealing to the particularly obstinate, even if it's what the intellectually-honest participant should be striving for. I've definitely felt it myself many times, but it's not a good impulse.
@TheBlackDeath3 (un)fortunately for Peter, intellectually honest and he have never been in the same room before. In an open space like this, it was on the first plane out.
I really respect destiny more and more. I am amazed how quick he is with his articulate responses. Kind of funny how he says stuff that I’m disagreeing with and then he’s like but I don’t know if I agree with that. “I’m neutral”. Love it.
I really appreciated how Destiny broke down the racial harms have to be dealt with racially when Peter asked for more precision. Takes a smart cookie to do that upon request in the moment.
Yeah, he's good at breaking down arguments in good faith for all sides, that's probably his biggest appeal to me (apart from his willingness to deep-dive into research).
@@AnthonyL0401 One of his rules is typically have really strong/good examples for positions he has. He most likely has a few to a dozen in the bag for a lot of his arguments. Ive seen him do debates and I've personally never really seen him fail to bring examples when asked for.
I love how egotistical one must be to think they truly know, or would even openly admit, exactly what they need “to change” ❤ I can appreciate the sentiment but good god, growing up, I didn’t know what events in my life were going to impact me and how.
@@Macheako The extent to which our opinions can be changed by evidence is the extent to which our opinions are based on evidence. it's not about ego, or perfectly understanding every position. Its about reflection and honesty with yourself to the best of your ability so you can have positions based on evidence and logic rather than emotion and/or assumption. Experiences inform evidence and logic, so this does not discount experience. But we need to be honest with the relative weight of our experiences to the evidence and logic.
@@helnkellrfresh2deaf bruh I gotta stop ya before ya start. Evidence or not, we are creatures who, quite often put our emotions BEFORE evidence to the contrary. Even people who have opinions based solely on evidence. When your wife is on the surgeons table….your “evidence based opinions” go out the window….again, I’m not saying you can’t be “open to change”, I’m just saying that you more than likely have less than no idea on what would actually change you 🙌❤️
@@Macheako I feel like we are talking past each other. I agree that we are first emotional. I agree that experiences can change your life in drastic and small ways. I agree that when we are emotional, we can behave differently than when we are not. What I'm trying to communicate is that when it comes to debate/conversation, we need to see the extent to which we are able to change and where we aren't. If we have opinions based on evidence, then our opinions can be changed with new evidence. If we have opinions based on emotion or assumptions, then there is no point debating those opinions at that time. Again, I agree we are emotional first. I don't see any direct contradiction between your point and mine. I may be wrong, so please correct me. From what you have written, I understand your point to be about the initial formation of opinions and how we behave when we are in emotional situations. I don't mean to imply that we are supposed to be robots and emotionless in our lives. Rather, I'm speaking about one of the important pieces in a productive debate/conversation. If during a debate/conversation we are presented with new evidence that contradicts our opinions, and we do not at least consider changing or modifying our opinions, then we know about ourselves that we won't have a productive debate/conversation about these opinions.
i appreciate the clarification of Peter's name right off bat, I thought that was v wholesome. Also the pure joy and fascination on Reid's face being the speaker with these two is priceless the collective nod and hate for the word "equittable" is hilarious towards the end of the exercise
How does destiny's first guess on universities not match what Peter said? Peter said it wasn't toxic social and financial incentives and that it was corruption, but then goes on to list a bunch of toxic social and financial incentives to describe the corruption.
Toxic means they are doing poorly. Corruption means they don't care how well they perform they care about ideology. University gives you a math test, the teachers are inept and sometimes teach poorly or grade wrong. You say 2+2=4. They say wrong. They made a mistake due to being incompetent. Or they mark 2+2=5, right. They are bad teachers. That's toxic, but you can either replace the teachers or retrain them. Thus solving the issue. Corruption is, they say 2+2=white ppl bad. They don't care about doing their job correctly they care about pushing ideology. Thus replacing a single teacher when the entire staff agrees with this is swapping a gear. Their bias will only lead to hiring another ideologically teacher. Thus it's no longer a bad apple in a bunch the entire bunch is rotten. Which is completely different.
What is even the point of making the other person guess? lol it’s so dumb. Just say what you think instead of playing this “you’re getting warmer” game
@TJ-ml4oy lol it's a gimmick. It's fun and sets you apart. Not everyone likes to just watch ppl talk. Especially because D man has done exactly that like 50 times this year. Everytime he goes on a podcast he's kind of just repeating himself
@TJ-ml4oy I think the idea is that we should see who is better at understanding the other side and their arguments. If you are just partisan hack running through prepared talking points without actually understanding the topic, you wouldn't be able to do this exercise. I think it's good concept, just poorly executed in this case
@@filipfroster9619 thats The great question my friend... Id say we need to reform our education institutes and Begin some extended pré School hours (basically ALL day with extra disciplines and so on) so we can shield children from acquiring some of The BAD behaviors that maybe present in their daily lifes. Just my 2 cents...
I probably said the word culture several times while listening to this. It is down to culture. Nigerians that immigrate to America do rather well. Also, many times Jewish people had been oppressed throughout the Middle East, Russia, and Europe, and yet they rose above it generally speaking. Of course all of this is very nuanced and not easy to fix per se.
Oh WOW, I can see my home in the background! I need to pay more attention to your schedule so I know when you will be here. I wish they would have turned the camera around towards the bay; Mark Cubans yacht has been there for almost a month now - real pretty boat And, yes, it is "warm" here :) And its just starting to get warm, try again in July/August.
@@lukemclellan2141 I don't live right off the park, you can see my building when they point behind the Arena more south down US1 at Vizcayne and Loft I. Edit: like at &t=140s and &t=184s
@@lukemclellan2141 Odd, I replied but I don't see it anymore, maybe because its "private info" it got removed or something? Anyway, its in the background of some shots, I don't live right off the park.
I don't agree with this neccesarily but i think what destiny meant was equality of opportunity is neutral, and to counterbalance a past negative you need a positive not a neutral
Yeah, I think the argument is that something constructive needs to be done, as opposed to something destructive, like taking away opportunities from someone else otherwise.
@@MarkHWillson are either of them suggesting something destructive? I thought it was about monetary reparations for all black people not just poor black people
This is a beautifully brilliant idea to have debate oppoinites attempt to guess the oppositions opinions...10/10 idea. This will show who is being honest and who is strawmanning or being intellectually dishonest.
@@TheBlackDeath3 Question 1 Peter guess his opinion spot on and Destiny guessed 3 times and missed all 3...I don't remember him really accurately perceiving Peter's positions...but Maybe I'm miss remembering its been a few days.
@@MarkHWillson "What do you think your opponents reason was for assaulting that woman or child?"... As much as debate reform for presidential candidates would be great, its already a loss for the country by the time we get to that stage.
21:25 can’t resist. I think the competing claims are “we broke it we bought it” and “using economics to measure harm”. In the former, the idea is if we could know with certainty that certain people had been handicapped by past institutional policies, we might feel they were entitled to compensation in spite of their achievements since then. For example if somebody defrauds me out of a million dollars and I can prove it in court, it doesn’t matter if I’m wealthy; they still owe me that money. In the latter argument, we acknowledge that *measurement* of harm is part of the problem - i.e. that not every contemporary black person was equally harmed by Jim Crow or redlining, and that treating all as such would both be a waste of resources and maybe racist - and that economics are a pretty good proxy to measure that harm, which is why we’d tend to favor more economic based affirmative action, for instance. I’m probably more sympathetic to the second argument.
I’m black, and I’m a biologist, given what I know about the genetic basis of many traits a human being can have, their mostly going to be polygenic. There’s no one height gene for instance, this would very very likely be the same for intelligence, in fact, there are studies which already claim as much. There are also different kinds of intelligence as well, it is not the case that two people with a 145 IQ will be able to equally grasp and perform research in quantum mechanics, one might be a music Virtuoso that is bad at math, whereas the other is a top physics professor who writes terribly. All this to say that intelligence is incredibly, incredibly complex. We only really know that it is very heritable, but couldn’t name all of the genes associated with it, and we know that there must be epigenetic factors which influence it, but we only have clues as to what those are (lead being one of them as Destiny mentioned , nutrition being another) but we don’t know how much those factors influence the expression of those “intelligence” genes. And even the way IQ is tested now doesn’t really account for people who would rank high im social intelligence who despite having a lower IQ, even lower than average, can be the leader or linchpin of whole communities because of their charisma and sociability. I believe that I agree more with destiny that in a society where all environmental factors are controlled for, we’d see out comes between racial groups that are MORE even but are not exactly the same. But with the amount of environmental factors present including the after effects of past discrimination, culture (you have to remember that even plenty of white cultures throughout history had brutal, violent, anti-intellectual features to them), living conditions including food, housing, water quality air quality and whatever else. The question of intelligence is one that is so confounded by many other variables that any scientific study done that does not focus on heritability or maybe specific genes influencing intelligence, but rather looks at population-wide distribution of intelligence, is not possible to produce results of any real value that speaks to fundamental racial differences. But I’d be very uncomfortable saying that it is impossible that genetic differences in intelligence exist between races, as a scientist, knowing that that work has not been vigorously done yet and it would take a lot of work do get a clear answer on it, I can’t rule out that some races, in average, poses genetic factors predisposing them for higher IQ than other races.
@@jesselunger8866the pituitary releases some hormones and hormones are not these magic entities that make things happen in isolation. Hormones such as human growth hormone (hgh) can be under produced or functionally compromised, it’s receptor could also be mutated as well, not only that but other cellular signals (again you must realize that biological pathways are often complex and include multiple signals) which are going to occur either up or downstream of hgf stimulation can also be either compromised or down regulated due to genetic mutation. Not only that, still using height as an example, there could be mutations effecting the function or general health of the cells of the epiphyseal growth plate which effects the growth of long bones (one such genetic condition is Multiple epiphyseal dysplasia, look it up). Now all of that to say that the brain, being comprised of neurons, requires the interactions between so so so many more biological systems and supporting cells to function properly that bones don’t really compare to its complexity we’ve known how bones work for a very long time now, and are still trying to figure the brain out. I can see intelligence being a perfect combination of all of these factors, for instance: what if one person has more dense white matter (oligodendrocytes) than another and that oligodendrocyte density turns out to be heritable (I’m not sure how heritable it is). A hypothesis would be that transmission of neural signals would be much faster in the person with more oligodendrocytes. Or if a person carries a gain-of-function mutation in one of their genes controlling the expression of one of their neural voltage-gated channel making it less effective then I can see that also making neural signals fire less rapidly. There’s also a bunch of neurotransmitters that your neurons produce in the cell body and are transported in vesicles to the terminal at the end of neuronal axons via motor proteins and many proteins are involved in all of that meaning that many genes can potentially have different alleles across the human population, between races of different effectiveness. And I don’t even think we know about all of the genes involved in neuro-plasticity but we do know that it decreases over time as one ages suggesting that early childhood stimuli would be important for determining overall intelligence over life. Meaning that however genetic intelligence is anyways, there’s a healthy component of it that is going to be based on stimuli, what a kid is exposed to, that we already know about. And realize here that I only very briefly mentioned epigenetic factors as it related to neuro plasticity at the end. This is why in my original comment I said there are going to be sooooo many factors effecting intelligence that a broad view at distribution of intelligence across races would be shot to pieces by reviewers because of the amount of confounding variables it would present. Full disclosure: I was very frustrated as a biologist (a very young biologist who’s planning on going to medical school anyways at that) watching this conversation about the musings of two non biologically or scientifically educated men who know nothing about the biological basis of intelligence at least far less than I do and I’m not even a neurologist, throw in their two-cents. Intelligence is a very important mystery for humanity to unravel, and it’s implications are so severe for how we organize society that we don’t need people who truly have no clue what they are talking about throwing their hat in the ring and insinuating that entire racial groups may be less intelligent genetically than others as Peter and Destiny have. There’s so much for scientists to discover here before anyone can comfortably say anything.
I guess you’re walking with the layman definition of race, but isn’t there hardly any basis for such in humans? Certainly not stuck to skin colour. Ethnicities though probably have varied genetic dispositions geographically, there may be more or less the distribution randomly for intelligence genes, where would intelligence genes be lesser chosen? I think while they may provide greater capacity for thought what matters for most is the structure for obtaining memetics, you may have intelligent parents but does that mean they are passing on heritability via genes or epigenetics? Could well be they intelligently guide their child to be intelligently educated, the culture is required for such a thing. A secular critical upbringing, who by and large are scientists these days? Correlation may not be causation but given probability you’d stand a better chance correlated with success than not.
@@jesselunger8866 I’d remind you that epiphyseal plate fusion happens around the end of puberty, before then the epiphyseal plate is being stimulated by human growth hormone directly. I wouldn’t talk to destiny or Peter, like I said I’m no neurologist and the only thing I’d stress is that intelligence is not only a complex question of philosophy and ethics, but also an incredibly complex biological question which we’re not close to unraveling yet. Also always remember Peter and Destiny are elites. They’ve both shown a penchant for academic studies and all I’m saying is they should discuss intelligence when they’re ready to have a complete biological and philosophical discussion on it. In this discussion it didn’t really seem like they appreciated the complexity of intelligence, and that much was obvious when they didn’t even spend time defining what intelligence is because tons of scholars go back and forth on even that question.
"That type of diversity has only been done in the United States" - clearly someone who has never been to Europe. What a wild comment to make. Very valuable and interesting conversation. These videos are superb.
Hello Peter, for this type of format, what do you think of the name "Stone Skipping Epistemology" ? I think it's a cool metaphor, because you explore quickly many topics without digging too deep, it requires skill and experience to be good at it, and although you act only in a small part of a still, unquestioned lake, it creates ripples that impact everything. Bonus : You keep the same acronym : SSE
Attaching a 100% weight or close to a 100% rate of culture to financial/educational success is really just turning a blind eye to the issue that can be more accurately addressed with a more holistic approach. Putting 'culture' behind all that puts yourself in a infinite regress problem - if 'culture' is the only issue, that if we change the culture, every single problem would go away. The question then becomes: so how do we change that culture externally? How did that culture come into existence in the first place? What if this culture re-emerges after you change it?
Throughout my years of schooling, the most extremist political views I've encountered have never come from my teachers or textbooks, but from my family or friends, and if we're being honest, people are pressured way more by parents or there immediate friend circle than the random feminist social studies teacher they had in high school. If anything, I always wished my teachers were *more* ideological and political during class, because I loved to argue with them and show my peers just how intellectual I was. I'm of the opinion that most people who are concerned about teachers brainwashing students are actually upset that they couldn't brainwash their kids themselves. They may also be projecting their lack of ability for critical thought to their children. Lastly, it's just kind of insulting to students. Young people may be more radicalist or adhere to obscure ideologies, but what do you expect? That's a tale as old as time. Kids are only getting smarter; the only thing they lack is experience and wisdom. You would be less concerned and more optimistic if you just had patience.
3:37 Ngl, his answer was a let down, I mean kudos on him for getting Destiny take correct first try but his arguement was so broad Destiny probably didn't say it cuz he didn't expect it to be as simple as "everything corrupt"
one of the best conversations on youtube. I used to listen to Reid, started to listen to Destiny this year, now I found another person to follow: you Peter! Great conversations
I dont think the loan comparison works because it is literally in their lifetimes, and having a discriminatory policy will only breed more racial animosity the same way it is apparently happening with the loans, except to a more extreme degree since the people being punished would be generations who had done nothing wrong.
@@stevereed2472 I know, I'm saying it's a really bad comparison for him to make for his own defense. He should look for one that goes with his point, not against it
@DrBocks I mean, the animosity he described that people have who payed off their loans is a perfect example of black peoples animosity for having been held back for 400 years. It's bot all in their lifetime but it's muuuuuuuuuch longer
@stevereed2472 so the solution would be to build that animosity from a much larger group towards black people? That sounds like a recipe for recreating the worst time period of the US. As much as it sucks and feels bad, I don't think this is the solution to "fix" the problem. Worst case scenario, there is no fix, but culture happens in a whole and the current dominant left-wing thought is white people (even those born today) have wronged black people and need to pay up.
I think part of the "past discrimination/present discrimination" problem on the other side that also makes me lean more neutral is that it's not just about equality. For example, in Destiny's hypothetical of a historically-mistreated group working hard and achieving parity with the other, I'm not sure if it's part of what he meant or not but because they had to work harder to catch up, who's to say that other group wouldn't have got even further than they did after that hard work if they didn't have a handicapped starting position? I'm not trying to virtue signal saying minorities are better or something, I just mean in the hypothetical. If group A mistreated B in a way which slowed down their educational and societal advancements and they were able to overcome it through a long time of hard work, then we don't know if that same hard work could have led to further advancements that would help out the whole of both groups. If someone in group B worked his ass off and became a successful businessman making $200k/year , that's awesome. _However,_ if in an alternate universe where he wasn't starting from behind, we see that his unhindered-potential was actually that he would have been a Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, then he still got fucked. Or say he worked hard enough to become a medical research assistant, but in the alternate reality his effort would have been enough to get better funding/education and he would have cured cancer. It's more about the principle than anything to me. If you steal $50 from Bill Gates, it's still wrong, even if it's negligible to him. So to me it doesn't matter if group B makes it on their own, because the wrong that was done was still wrong. I do still lean pretty heavily neutral though, because there are obviously lots of problems with that which complicate things. All the things like "the modern person wasn't the person wronged, the other modern person wasn't the one who wronged them, how do you determine who gets it, could the resources be better used another way, _what_ means of restitution is fair/effective and how much is the right amount", etc etc etc.
Listening to Destiny reminds me of when I was in college and overhearing people at 3am, whacked out on ritalin or coke, solving the world's problems. A more productive conversation about meritocracy would move away from groups, & to individuals. Parents properly raising their children and giving them the tools to succeed will always be more effective than abstract notions of society lifting up or pushing down groups defined by immutable or arbitrary characteristics.
There is no “corrective discrimination” to compensate for past discrimination. That is actually just revenge. The reciprocal of discrimination is a lack of discrimination because what ppl do not understand is discrimination is viewed through the lens of consequentialism, and it creates consequences those being discriminated against and those that it ostensibly favors. Those consequences are somewhat subjective, believe it or not, and for those who preach relativism those consequences could be argued to be good or bad simply depending on what you believe defines good and bad, subjectively. So in other words, you cannot cancel out discrimination with reverse discrimination-that just introduces a new set of consequences. If you are not a consequentialist then you can only really correct for discrimination by moving towards non-discrimination
annoying definition fetishism. how about actually listening to what's being said instead of zooming in on a single word and imposing some irrelevant hyper-specific definition on it
25:55 The example Destiny gave ironically illustrates how fair treatment and time can erase a past bad treatment. If you starve a group of people for a while, they will massively underperform, but if you start feeding both group equally after that, at the start the first group will have figurative scars due to the recent starvation, but eventually, they will have entirely recovered and perform as well as the second group, yet they were never compensated for their mistreatment.
Probably commenting on this too late for Peter to see, but he used the word "epitaph" when he meant "epithet". (May have just been a simple misspeak, but I'm just pointing it out in the hoooope he reads this comment, because if it's a regular error, he may prefer to know rather than continue having the words mixed up in his head.)
We will never have a perfect society. That’s because people will never be perfect. Equity of outcome may sound righteous & it certainly does in the rear view mirror of history. But at best, it is a fast track to a two tiered society where everyone must stay in the same fishbowl while the all powerful government manages every aspect of our lives. Destiny reminds me of the intellectuals of last century who admired the socialism experiment in USSR. He should do a deep dive into what happened to only every single group, one group at a time including the enthusiast communists. We can never ever give our government the power to divide us by our descriptions
That's not his position at all; in the broadest sense, he wants historical influences and social pressures to be minimized so that people can do what they are best at. He has never purported to want equity of outcome (which is why he disagrees at 13:31 and is neutral at 15:47). His neutral stance is that there may be an argument that some inequity in outcomes might warrant compensation if it is unjust, but he isn't sure that it is that compelling. This is clearly a position of equal opportunities rather than equal outcomes.
I don’t think trans-generational punishment towards those with privileged past or reward for those with unprivileged past should be considered in any sense. It’s unfair and the idea should not be group retaliation or rewarding, especially not in the hand of a centralized authority, partly because how subjective it is.
I still stand that there’s non-corruptive, non-punishing methods of corrective action to get people on the same playing field. To me, it would be limited to _outreach_ to inherently disaffected and underrepresented populations - not preference during application considerations. That limitation would apply to the universities themselves. I wouldn’t be opposed to organizations that also identify and then offer support to the underrepresented populations. Notably, these change with time, and already won’t fall along lines such as race, which do not effectively capture the issue. (E.g. racial considerations resulting in wealthy black Nigerian first generation students getting assistance and preference, while impoverished Asian Americans get essentially penalized compared to the mean student)
It does create a strange incentive structure, where if I work hard to earn money to send my kids to a good school, those efforts are then used to justify effectively penalizing my child’s college application.
Peter Boghassian is a breath of fresh air. He encourages open debate about differing opinions and tries to get them to justify and question their opinion. We need more of this type of discussion.
I love to see you two take these questions to bigger depts and talk about the actual problems and realistic solutions rather than the usual "education bad because I know a guy who's in debt" bullshit on the internet
The average viewer won't engage with that though. All things being equal, you will always get more clicks from sensational content versus rational content.
23:14 The addition of led paint chips here is actually a super interesting association here... were there cereals or food products sold in regions that didn't get phased out as fast as say, rich suburban areas? How long did Led poisoning persist, I'm assuming 90s, but maybe early 2000s too?
@@TubeWusel it’s not hurt feelings you dress for the job you want not the job you have. Destiny wants the job he has so it works for him but he is dooming his impressionable audience to a life of an unsuccessful in-cell
Would somebody remind Destiny that since he said he hasn’t done “a deep dive into DEI” that he should do that first before attempting to have an informed conversation on the subject?
Maybe he’s using this discussion to inform himself more? Seems weird that you would want him to just not have a discussion with someone who has the knowledge.
@@ediewyseI think he would have seen some of his wordy opinions as unexamined assumptions had he done the deep dive into the subject as he qualified he didn’t do. This would be a more constructive discussion in my opinion
@@nancykisich3263 Why are you pretending as if he's clueless, he's even interviewed Dr Peter Arcidiacono... Maybe someone should remind you to try being less biased and use a little bit of your brain when writing comments.
At 5:16 Steven says "the contrapositive" but then actually talks about the inverse (which is not logically equivalent), the contrapositive would be something like "if they are not corrupt, they most likely do not have a diversity department"
Wait I clicked on this for destiny, what is with the extremely weird framing/need for outside shouting and the first intro line up? Like I get the positioning thing, but like once they've indicated their spots why make the mic guy walk back and forth, why not then scooch back together???
I get that Destiny is a “rebel” but you gotta admit, his clothing looks like he wears the same stuff to go work out, take a shit and appear in front of thousands of people. Kinda weird lol
The education system has become dangerous. People with extreme political views should never be allowed to teach young adults. The Ivy League schools should be shut down
Shut down and replaced with what restrictions? Curious what the rebuilding of education would be that doesn’t re-create the issue or worse… … or if we decide to no longer collectively aim for universal truths anymore
Maybe it's covered, but he didn't do the contrapositive at 5:10. He did the inverse, which is not equivalent to the original proposition. The contrapositive would be that if an institution is not corrupt, it probably doesn't have a DEI department.
Yucky first time I heard Peter he sounded reasonable. Unfortunately he's got some major brain worms surrounding academics. I would suggest reconsidering your entire mindset regarding the education system Peter. Why attribute malice what could easily be explained with incompetence? It's clear that people want what's best for the country people just have different ideas what that is and that's where living in a Liberal democracy allows us to debate this. To insist there's such massive corruption modern academia should be burned to the ground is untenable and not reflective of the reality in which the US is still the best when it comes to higher education and it's not close. Perhaps there are issues but advocate to fix those don't be weird.
In general, you're correct but you're ignoring the people who have literally said it was intentionally done. For your version to be correct, you would also have to assume those individuals are lying. Those claiming it is done deliberately are not the majority but they have disproportionate influence.
I've hated Destiny to date because when he appears on Lex Fridman he 1) isn't a STEM gem and 2) doesn't say anything that makes me think it's worth the opportunity cost to have him there. This is the first thing I've seen that made me appreciate the guy. I think his choices and arguments were very level-headed here and more fair than Peter's. LOVE the debate format and hoping people respect it and don't break it. Respect to those who respect the spirit of the format, and respect to Peter for implementing this. If I see more of this from Destiny, I may even venture to his channel one day.
I’m still pretty young, and currently working on a PhD in a STEM field so maybe my mix of ignorance and relative seclusion from humanities insanity let’s me feel this way, but making the statement that it is broken beyond repair is very extreme and not connected to reality at all. In my entire college education which spanned from 2019 to 2023, I remember one instance of a class being taken up to mention things about race or diversity, and one class where things like colonialism were mentioned, but that was an English class about science fiction when we were discussing War of the Worlds by HG Wells. I think that a relatively level-headed student, like I would like to think I am, can go through college collecting very valuable knowledge while also seeing and not taking extremely seriously the crazy woke stuff.
@@parkerlincoln49 feel free to review this comment in a few years when you are in industry. As your doing your doctorate, that may never be the case of course, as you may become a teacher. If you are following an academic career path obviously academia is the right course for you - but I would direct you to look at how much legitimate scientific breakthroughs come from academia, how much from industry, and how much from individuals with private backing or no backing. The brokenness, isn't just DEI related.. its the simple fact that schools and universities are not teaching people the skills needed by industry! Further more they ARE teaching students an attitude problem, one which most employers are recognizing and becoming more cautious about hiring graduates - knowing that they will A: have to train them anyway B: have to 'untrain' them in certain ideas. Industry apprenticeships are coming back in a big way... hence I'm confident in saying yes. Academia IS indeed broken.
What do you think of the notion that everyone is born with the same level of intellectual potential (except the outliers at both ends)? The key factors in reaching potential being opportunity, belief in one's self and desire/passion.
@@lukemclellan2141 thats not even remotely the case the differences between groups is immense on average sub saharan Africa in particular fall far short. The same also applies within the US when it comes to academic performance. Charles Murray has some great interviews on this subject.
@@svenhaheim haha, yeah right?! I'm only asking questions, not trying to convince you of anything... Does IQ deserve to be held as the standard that it is/has been? Would/could peoples from parts of the world without a structured education system meaure acceptable IQ levels if they were exposed to it?
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Watch Destiny's appearance on Conversations with Peter Boghossian: th-cam.com/video/Zld2MxA9-xw/w-d-xo.html
It seems as most discrepancies are empathy driven, I would argue that the empathy driven narrative has actually caused more harm to disparate communities than racial ones have in the last 50 years; ie welfare, and fatherless homes as an incentive for single mothers; the precedent of child support(also predatory for women)((empathy driven))
Are disparate communities harmed more under empathy driven policies? (examples above)
How expansive can empathy be? As a benefit for a family(?) a community(?) a society(?) a State(?) a Nation(?) Globally?
Empathy can only extend to familial benefit's as far as i can see it: we would call that communisms; also that is as far as it works. Anything beyond would be considered cooperation, cooperation is a negotiated reciprocal benefit.
I watched him make a complete fool of himself attempting to debate Jordan Peterson.
if college was free/open to all, none of this would matter
when british laws bacckfired own white race.
@@brianmo2611 i think, in this age of AI, chatgpt, etc Education should be free for all.
It’s hard not to respect Destiny. So many political streamers just stay in their lane, posturing to ‘their crowd’ - if you watch a Destiny video, more often than not he’s debating someone he disagrees with & often with an audience who wouldn’t ordinarily be friendly to him.
These conversations are how we can move forward & find common ground.
yeah but have you seen how butt-ugly his outfit looks?
yeah but have you seen his outfit?
I find it pretty easy, actually.
@@braedonwilk Mismatched blues with black shoes was kinda painful. Some might say that he just doesn't care, but flagrantly breaking all the rules almost seems like he's intentionally messing with the people that give him a hard time about it.
I cannot take destiknee seriously. Not at all. Poseur, twit. Self absobed boy brain.
Props to whoever handled their audio because that looks windy af but the recording sounds great
AI basically will take care of all of that nowadays
Couldn't agree more
Destiny starting to leave his computer to do content but forgets to change his clothes.
Hes got a shirt pants socks and shoes and still got that hair.... what else does he need...
@@mandeepsuj1 a tan
Right? The cheapest ass millionaire there is! Lol
Any other pants but those@@mandeepsuj1
Destiny is rich so he can wear whatever he wants
I like how Steven looks like he's doing his daily exercises in a prison yard.
Great description lol
He’s a coomer who jerks off 15 times a day to feet pics from 5/10s hahahah and a terrible dad
I was thinking the same, looks like he just escaped from lesbian prison
Minimal gains.
@@rihhard1072 Lesbian prison? 🤣🤣🤣
I respect both Destiny's and Peter's perspectives and love seeing these 2 talk about issues together! More please!
What you said
I don't
This is the best push back I’ve seen Peter get. I think these two would work so well together.
This feels less like a debate, and more like AI learning. I love it. So respectful. Just information flowing. No stupidity to be detected.
I find it funny how this is already the second time destiny tries to guess a postition and is way too fact minded, the the other guy just uses conspiracy terms.
I feel like destiny guessed his first thing in the first try? But the other guy said no? It was basically the same idea of "the institutions are too corrupt"
Yeah definitely
Yeah its pretty strange
Yes, The institution is destroyed by incentives = the institution is corrupt.
Yeah, agree. I think it's pretty telling that Destiny was willing to engage more faithfully with the format than the other guy.
Regardless of what Destiny said Peter would have said no because he seems to view his opposition being able to clearly state his pov a form of loss or concession.
Every debate should be like this, one mic, so they can’t interrupt eachother
Good point. I started getting annoyed that Reid had to run back and forth between them, and was wondering why they don't just have two (or three) mikes. Your answer is great. I should have realised that myself.
Same boat as you. But tbh when im working the chaos makes it awesome
Yeah the issue becomes the format, this isn't a good format to "flesh out" ideas. It is good for understanding each other's ideas though.
Boring
@@jacobstall1588 Can't flesh out ideas when your opponent is constantly interrupting you. This isn't perfect, but it's the best format if we want to allow each sides to "flesh out" their ideas without interruption.
Whoever chose this location to shoot and framed this shot knocked it out of the park
LOL, it is one of my favorite parks downtown and the science museum on the other side is not too bad; really cool aquarium. There's a good documentary about one of the buildings in the background on youtube(wish I could remember the name of it, its about the building with the X frame looking thing). The building was designed so that the inside doesnt have major supports and the "exoskeleton" support system allowed for interior condos/units to have much more open floor plans. Its the first(maybe only) building like it and sadly the architect died just a few months before it was complete because a hurricane delayed the construction and she died before they wrapped it all up - sad story but cool story and design.
@@vitaminKsGood4u Nice, sounds fascinating. What I really love though is the way the paved path lined with palm trees bisects the shot directly into the horizon during the straight on shots, it looks really expertly done. Thanks brother, peace.
Reid was massively into film and photography when he was younger. It’s likely down to him.
I appreciate that both interlocutors wore mismatched shades of blue.
Of course they were mismatched. You want to wear a top and bottom with the same shade of color? That would look weird.
@@marfin4325What till you hear about these things called "suits".
@@marfin4325Slightly different shades also look weird. It’s called clashing.
Love seeing you participate in the epistemology game, Peter!
It's good to hear you formulate your ideas and opinions with data to back up your reasoning.
Whatever people think about Destiny, he's got more balls than Matt Walsh and is willing to engage in conversations, instead of just judging others from the comfort of his office.
👍
Thank you. I offered to have a conversation with Matt Walsh after he put out the “hit video” on me, but of course he did not respond.
@@drpeterboghossian That's what I was referring to.
Contrary to him you contribute to the betterment of humanity! 🖖
Totally agreed, Destiny has balls, Matt Walsh got bodied even by a few of the college kids so he's totally dropped his nuts and refuses to debate
@@drpeterboghossianhe is too busy still evaluating the epistemology of what it means to be a woman lmfao
"Rhymes with Explosion" lol bruh
🤣
Not in the Armenian original. But there we go again with integration, assimilation, not exceptionalism.
The ocean, erosion.
Look if its stupid but it works
I've never said his last name out loud and finally I can. That question was Destiny's biggest contribution to society so far
Peter “Nazis don’t change their minds”
Daryl Davis “hold my beer!” 🍺
There might be some overlap between the kkk and nazis, but i dont think we could stop Hitler with anything else than incredible violence.
Nice!
He converted KKK members. Nazis are far more politically entrenched.
Destiny didn't say that Nazis don't change their minds. He was talking about a specific person they talked to before (but he was trying to point out a archetype of person) and he meant when you hold specific views such as a Nazi and you say that there isn't any single piece of evidence out there that could change your mind, what do you expect besides the fact that people will call you a Nazi in this case.
He was trying to say that it's good to keep in mind what views can change your mind such that people could provide you that evidence and engage in conversation with you vs you saying there is no such evidence and the only option left is for people to call you a Nazi and move on.
Daryl Davis, one of my favorite people!
I like this format. It gives you a lot of extra information about the knowledge both parties have about the opposite side with that intro and gives clear information on the arguments instead of it just being a shouting match.
i really like the format with walking the mic back and forth so you physically can't interrupt each other or talk over the other person
They are 3 meters away lol the mic isn’t “physically” stopping anything it’s more symbolic and they are both respectful
The SAT was designed to identify students with excellent grades from inferior high schools who are indeed capable of succeeding at previously high-performing universities like the Ivies. Students who got high grades at inferior high schools and scored low on the SAT were very likely to wash out of demanding university programs. Students who got high grades at inferior high schools and scored high on the SAT were very likely to do well in demanding university programs. This was very important in ending racial discrimination in university admissions during the 1960s. High SAT scores are a great help to students from poor economic backgrounds fighting against racial discrimination.
This was the theory, but the statistics ended up disagreeing with this. The graduation rates of students from “inferior schools” was higher for those with lower SAT scores compared with those with lower SAT scores from “better schools.” The low testing students from “inferior schools” did better than those from “better” schools.
@@dwil0311 What?
@@francisgg7046 This is likely because you need a higher IQ to score a 1400 on the SAT if you went to an inferior school than you do going to a better school. A high IQ individual will not get an average SAT score if then went to a great high school. How good your High school is inflates your SAT score.
When the student who went to a poor high school gets an SAT score of 1400, they obtained the score through self drive and or high IQ. Self drive and high IQ are the most important factors for success/graduation rates in college.
I find it hilarious that Destiny tried so hard to steelman what he thought Peter's argument was gonna be, when in reality it was literally just "burn them down because they're woke" lmfao 😂
His first guess was as close as Peter's was, I think Peter was just playing an optics game to try to make Destiny look less intelligent comparatively.
There's something about the idea of being "figured out" or "pinned down" in a debate or argument that can feel unappealing to the particularly obstinate, even if it's what the intellectually-honest participant should be striving for. I've definitely felt it myself many times, but it's not a good impulse.
His first guess was essentially what Peter was saying.
That's because Destiny believes in good faith differences.
@TheBlackDeath3 (un)fortunately for Peter, intellectually honest and he have never been in the same room before.
In an open space like this, it was on the first plane out.
I really respect destiny more and more. I am amazed how quick he is with his articulate responses. Kind of funny how he says stuff that I’m disagreeing with and then he’s like but I don’t know if I agree with that. “I’m neutral”. Love it.
I really appreciated how Destiny broke down the racial harms have to be dealt with racially when Peter asked for more precision. Takes a smart cookie to do that upon request in the moment.
Yeah, he's good at breaking down arguments in good faith for all sides, that's probably his biggest appeal to me (apart from his willingness to deep-dive into research).
@@AnthonyL0401 One of his rules is typically have really strong/good examples for positions he has. He most likely has a few to a dozen in the bag for a lot of his arguments. Ive seen him do debates and I've personally never really seen him fail to bring examples when asked for.
It was nice of Peter Dinklage to fill in for my girl Destiny in today's debate
💀
I bet you post "Destiny is a girls name" in a bunch of other comment sections since its banned in Destinys one now for being cringe and played out.
@@Gordo525 Destiny is only a girl's name if she didn't get enough hugs from her father by the time she's 18.
Savage lol
@@Gordo525 Yes
Awesome. Looking forward to the rest of the episode in Miami.
Destiny is Steven Bonnell II not III. Posting this in hopes someone sees it to fix the description (not that it really matters).
They fixed it
Imagine if he had another child named like that
We making a difference with this one 🗣🗣🔥🔥
Nebraska Steven
It's a prophecy for the future....The chosen one will rise.
Mismatched blue is a brutal outfit choice 😂
Only people who are not truly free care about such things 😂
If you look closely you can see Peter stole Destinys shoes
Can we make the semi circle larger? Please? I want to see mic guy run for 4-5 seconds between takes. Thanks 🙏
I love the conversation about the conditionality of positions.
"What evidence would you need to see to change your mind?"
This is possibly the most important and core question of assessing one’s epistemological framework
I love how egotistical one must be to think they truly know, or would even openly admit, exactly what they need “to change” ❤
I can appreciate the sentiment but good god, growing up, I didn’t know what events in my life were going to impact me and how.
@@Macheako The extent to which our opinions can be changed by evidence is the extent to which our opinions are based on evidence.
it's not about ego, or perfectly understanding every position. Its about reflection and honesty with yourself to the best of your ability so you can have positions based on evidence and logic rather than emotion and/or assumption.
Experiences inform evidence and logic, so this does not discount experience. But we need to be honest with the relative weight of our experiences to the evidence and logic.
@@helnkellrfresh2deaf bruh I gotta stop ya before ya start. Evidence or not, we are creatures who, quite often put our emotions BEFORE evidence to the contrary. Even people who have opinions based solely on evidence.
When your wife is on the surgeons table….your “evidence based opinions” go out the window….again, I’m not saying you can’t be “open to change”, I’m just saying that you more than likely have less than no idea on what would actually change you 🙌❤️
@@Macheako I feel like we are talking past each other.
I agree that we are first emotional. I agree that experiences can change your life in drastic and small ways. I agree that when we are emotional, we can behave differently than when we are not.
What I'm trying to communicate is that when it comes to debate/conversation, we need to see the extent to which we are able to change and where we aren't. If we have opinions based on evidence, then our opinions can be changed with new evidence.
If we have opinions based on emotion or assumptions, then there is no point debating those opinions at that time.
Again, I agree we are emotional first. I don't see any direct contradiction between your point and mine. I may be wrong, so please correct me. From what you have written, I understand your point to be about the initial formation of opinions and how we behave when we are in emotional situations.
I don't mean to imply that we are supposed to be robots and emotionless in our lives. Rather, I'm speaking about one of the important pieces in a productive debate/conversation.
If during a debate/conversation we are presented with new evidence that contradicts our opinions, and we do not at least consider changing or modifying our opinions, then we know about ourselves that we won't have a productive debate/conversation about these opinions.
i appreciate the clarification of Peter's name right off bat, I thought that was v wholesome.
Also the pure joy and fascination on Reid's face being the speaker with these two is priceless
the collective nod and hate for the word "equittable" is hilarious towards the end of the exercise
How does destiny's first guess on universities not match what Peter said? Peter said it wasn't toxic social and financial incentives and that it was corruption, but then goes on to list a bunch of toxic social and financial incentives to describe the corruption.
Toxic means they are doing poorly. Corruption means they don't care how well they perform they care about ideology.
University gives you a math test, the teachers are inept and sometimes teach poorly or grade wrong. You say 2+2=4. They say wrong. They made a mistake due to being incompetent. Or they mark 2+2=5, right. They are bad teachers. That's toxic, but you can either replace the teachers or retrain them. Thus solving the issue.
Corruption is, they say 2+2=white ppl bad. They don't care about doing their job correctly they care about pushing ideology. Thus replacing a single teacher when the entire staff agrees with this is swapping a gear. Their bias will only lead to hiring another ideologically teacher. Thus it's no longer a bad apple in a bunch the entire bunch is rotten. Which is completely different.
What is even the point of making the other person guess? lol it’s so dumb. Just say what you think instead of playing this “you’re getting warmer” game
@TJ-ml4oy lol it's a gimmick. It's fun and sets you apart. Not everyone likes to just watch ppl talk. Especially because D man has done exactly that like 50 times this year. Everytime he goes on a podcast he's kind of just repeating himself
I think the idea of saying it wasn't the same is Peter's claim is far more broad. Though Destiny's was also more broad than Peter's guess.
@TJ-ml4oy I think the idea is that we should see who is better at understanding the other side and their arguments. If you are just partisan hack running through prepared talking points without actually understanding the topic, you wouldn't be able to do this exercise. I think it's good concept, just poorly executed in this case
They forgot about culture of races/groups. Thats were the real differences about outcomes lives, not in DNA, not in melanin, CULTURE is KEY.
but how do you fix the culture?
@@filipfroster9619 thats The great question my friend... Id say we need to reform our education institutes and Begin some extended pré School hours (basically ALL day with extra disciplines and so on) so we can shield children from acquiring some of The BAD behaviors that maybe present in their daily lifes. Just my 2 cents...
I probably said the word culture several times while listening to this. It is down to culture. Nigerians that immigrate to America do rather well. Also, many times Jewish people had been oppressed throughout the Middle East, Russia, and Europe, and yet they rose above it generally speaking. Of course all of this is very nuanced and not easy to fix per se.
Then why does Peter appear to be wearing Jordan’s?
@@filipfroster9619id start with the media.
Hoping you upload the Destiny vs Random passerby segment that he mentioned!
Wait until you see it... If it's posted...
Great convo!!!
Thank you!
Oh WOW, I can see my home in the background! I need to pay more attention to your schedule so I know when you will be here. I wish they would have turned the camera around towards the bay; Mark Cubans yacht has been there for almost a month now - real pretty boat
And, yes, it is "warm" here :) And its just starting to get warm, try again in July/August.
Which corner of the park do you live?
@@lukemclellan2141 I don't live right off the park, you can see my building when they point behind the Arena more south down US1 at Vizcayne and Loft I.
Edit: like at &t=140s and &t=184s
@@lukemclellan2141 Odd, I replied but I don't see it anymore, maybe because its "private info" it got removed or something? Anyway, its in the background of some shots, I don't live right off the park.
@@vitaminKsGood4u cool. I was just being silly trying to make jokes on the internet. Do you live in one of the high rises?
@@lukemclellan2141 Yeah, but I think saying it gets the post removed. Probably for the better.
Impressed with Peter Explosions performance
literally laughed out loud lmao
It was an explosive performance by Explossian
Cool to see Mr. Boghossian and Mr Bareli have more conversations like this.
Dont you mean Mr. Explosion
Ms. Barelli*
Mr. Divorcelli - hamasabi
His name is Mr Tortellini thank you very much
I really enjoy two of my favourite brains talking to each other. He should go on the podcast.
Street epistemology with destiny! Looking forward to this.
dont even need to watch, he takes the turbolib position on everything
@@beansdestroyer and what position do you take on everything? he seems to think critically and take each issue separately.
@@canyonsand you're right, he was right about blm and rittenhouse
Bro got that Adam Sandler drip
It was such a power move for Peter to steal Destiny's shoes before the video started.
I don't agree with this neccesarily but i think what destiny meant was equality of opportunity is neutral, and to counterbalance a past negative you need a positive not a neutral
Yeah, I think the argument is that something constructive needs to be done, as opposed to something destructive, like taking away opportunities from someone else otherwise.
@@MarkHWillson are either of them suggesting something destructive? I thought it was about monetary reparations for all black people not just poor black people
As Ven Shapiro would say, 'The mental gymnastics you perform to get to that place is astonishing'!
Equal opportunity is neutral???????? How you figure? Do people just OWE you a fair shot? 🤔
@@Macheako if you want broad buy in from the citizens of a society then yes, we should strive to maintain equal opportunity
This is a beautifully brilliant idea to have debate oppoinites attempt to guess the oppositions opinions...10/10 idea. This will show who is being honest and who is strawmanning or being intellectually dishonest.
Imagine if we got a presidential debate with that. 😂
@@MarkHWillson that would go CRAZY
It is a good idea, and it's interesting that Destiny probably passed that test better than Peter did on his own show.
@@TheBlackDeath3 Question 1 Peter guess his opinion spot on and Destiny guessed 3 times and missed all 3...I don't remember him really accurately perceiving Peter's positions...but Maybe I'm miss remembering its been a few days.
@@MarkHWillson "What do you think your opponents reason was for assaulting that woman or child?"... As much as debate reform for presidential candidates would be great, its already a loss for the country by the time we get to that stage.
21:25 can’t resist. I think the competing claims are “we broke it we bought it” and “using economics to measure harm”. In the former, the idea is if we could know with certainty that certain people had been handicapped by past institutional policies, we might feel they were entitled to compensation in spite of their achievements since then. For example if somebody defrauds me out of a million dollars and I can prove it in court, it doesn’t matter if I’m wealthy; they still owe me that money. In the latter argument, we acknowledge that *measurement* of harm is part of the problem - i.e. that not every contemporary black person was equally harmed by Jim Crow or redlining, and that treating all as such would both be a waste of resources and maybe racist - and that economics are a pretty good proxy to measure that harm, which is why we’d tend to favor more economic based affirmative action, for instance. I’m probably more sympathetic to the second argument.
Very interesting. Hope to see more of these two together, especially about DEI and the culture war.
I’m black, and I’m a biologist, given what I know about the genetic basis of many traits a human being can have, their mostly going to be polygenic. There’s no one height gene for instance, this would very very likely be the same for intelligence, in fact, there are studies which already claim as much. There are also different kinds of intelligence as well, it is not the case that two people with a 145 IQ will be able to equally grasp and perform research in quantum mechanics, one might be a music Virtuoso that is bad at math, whereas the other is a top physics professor who writes terribly. All this to say that intelligence is incredibly, incredibly complex. We only really know that it is very heritable, but couldn’t name all of the genes associated with it, and we know that there must be epigenetic factors which influence it, but we only have clues as to what those are (lead being one of them as Destiny mentioned , nutrition being another) but we don’t know how much those factors influence the expression of those “intelligence” genes. And even the way IQ is tested now doesn’t really account for people who would rank high im social intelligence who despite having a lower IQ, even lower than average, can be the leader or linchpin of whole communities because of their charisma and sociability. I believe that I agree more with destiny that in a society where all environmental factors are controlled for, we’d see out comes between racial groups that are MORE even but are not exactly the same. But with the amount of environmental factors present including the after effects of past discrimination, culture (you have to remember that even plenty of white cultures throughout history had brutal, violent, anti-intellectual features to them), living conditions including food, housing, water quality air quality and whatever else. The question of intelligence is one that is so confounded by many other variables that any scientific study done that does not focus on heritability or maybe specific genes influencing intelligence, but rather looks at population-wide distribution of intelligence, is not possible to produce results of any real value that speaks to fundamental racial differences. But I’d be very uncomfortable saying that it is impossible that genetic differences in intelligence exist between races, as a scientist, knowing that that work has not been vigorously done yet and it would take a lot of work do get a clear answer on it, I can’t rule out that some races, in average, poses genetic factors predisposing them for higher IQ than other races.
@@jesselunger8866the pituitary releases some hormones and hormones are not these magic entities that make things happen in isolation. Hormones such as human growth hormone (hgh) can be under produced or functionally compromised, it’s receptor could also be mutated as well, not only that but other cellular signals (again you must realize that biological pathways are often complex and include multiple signals) which are going to occur either up or downstream of hgf stimulation can also be either compromised or down regulated due to genetic mutation. Not only that, still using height as an example, there could be mutations effecting the function or general health of the cells of the epiphyseal growth plate which effects the growth of long bones (one such genetic condition is Multiple epiphyseal dysplasia, look it up). Now all of that to say that the brain, being comprised of neurons, requires the interactions between so so so many more biological systems and supporting cells to function properly that bones don’t really compare to its complexity we’ve known how bones work for a very long time now, and are still trying to figure the brain out. I can see intelligence being a perfect combination of all of these factors, for instance: what if one person has more dense white matter (oligodendrocytes) than another and that oligodendrocyte density turns out to be heritable (I’m not sure how heritable it is). A hypothesis would be that transmission of neural signals would be much faster in the person with more oligodendrocytes. Or if a person carries a gain-of-function mutation in one of their genes controlling the expression of one of their neural voltage-gated channel making it less effective then I can see that also making neural signals fire less rapidly. There’s also a bunch of neurotransmitters that your neurons produce in the cell body and are transported in vesicles to the terminal at the end of neuronal axons via motor proteins and many proteins are involved in all of that meaning that many genes can potentially have different alleles across the human population, between races of different effectiveness. And I don’t even think we know about all of the genes involved in neuro-plasticity but we do know that it decreases over time as one ages suggesting that early childhood stimuli would be important for determining overall intelligence over life. Meaning that however genetic intelligence is anyways, there’s a healthy component of it that is going to be based on stimuli, what a kid is exposed to, that we already know about.
And realize here that I only very briefly mentioned epigenetic factors as it related to neuro plasticity at the end. This is why in my original comment I said there are going to be sooooo many factors effecting intelligence that a broad view at distribution of intelligence across races would be shot to pieces by reviewers because of the amount of confounding variables it would present.
Full disclosure: I was very frustrated as a biologist (a very young biologist who’s planning on going to medical school anyways at that) watching this conversation about the musings of two non biologically or scientifically educated men who know nothing about the biological basis of intelligence at least far less than I do and I’m not even a neurologist, throw in their two-cents. Intelligence is a very important mystery for humanity to unravel, and it’s implications are so severe for how we organize society that we don’t need people who truly have no clue what they are talking about throwing their hat in the ring and insinuating that entire racial groups may be less intelligent genetically than others as Peter and Destiny have. There’s so much for scientists to discover here before anyone can comfortably say anything.
I guess you’re walking with the layman definition of race, but isn’t there hardly any basis for such in humans? Certainly not stuck to skin colour. Ethnicities though probably have varied genetic dispositions geographically, there may be more or less the distribution randomly for intelligence genes, where would intelligence genes be lesser chosen? I think while they may provide greater capacity for thought what matters for most is the structure for obtaining memetics, you may have intelligent parents but does that mean they are passing on heritability via genes or epigenetics? Could well be they intelligently guide their child to be intelligently educated, the culture is required for such a thing. A secular critical upbringing, who by and large are scientists these days? Correlation may not be causation but given probability you’d stand a better chance correlated with success than not.
@@jesselunger8866 I’d remind you that epiphyseal plate fusion happens around the end of puberty, before then the epiphyseal plate is being stimulated by human growth hormone directly.
I wouldn’t talk to destiny or Peter, like I said I’m no neurologist and the only thing I’d stress is that intelligence is not only a complex question of philosophy and ethics, but also an incredibly complex biological question which we’re not close to unraveling yet.
Also always remember Peter and Destiny are elites. They’ve both shown a penchant for academic studies and all I’m saying is they should discuss intelligence when they’re ready to have a complete biological and philosophical discussion on it. In this discussion it didn’t really seem like they appreciated the complexity of intelligence, and that much was obvious when they didn’t even spend time defining what intelligence is because tons of scholars go back and forth on even that question.
Hope to see more collabs with Mr. Borelli and Mr. Explosion
"That type of diversity has only been done in the United States" - clearly someone who has never been to Europe. What a wild comment to make.
Very valuable and interesting conversation. These videos are superb.
I love seeing these two amazing communicators interact.
It seems impossible to eliminate disparities among different groups, not without hurting others.
Not the blue sweatpants💀
Peter Explosion! This episode is your magnum opus. No joke. Both you & Destiny were at your most eloquent.
Why is he standing behind him like that 🤣
Hello Peter, for this type of format, what do you think of the name "Stone Skipping Epistemology" ? I think it's a cool metaphor, because you explore quickly many topics without digging too deep, it requires skill and experience to be good at it, and although you act only in a small part of a still, unquestioned lake, it creates ripples that impact everything. Bonus : You keep the same acronym : SSE
Thanks Peter! I love Mick Foley!
💀💀💀💀
Attaching a 100% weight or close to a 100% rate of culture to financial/educational success is really just turning a blind eye to the issue that can be more accurately addressed with a more holistic approach.
Putting 'culture' behind all that puts yourself in a infinite regress problem - if 'culture' is the only issue, that if we change the culture, every single problem would go away. The question then becomes: so how do we change that culture externally? How did that culture come into existence in the first place? What if this culture re-emerges after you change it?
At first glance, I thought it was a vid of Destiny w/ Rick Beato.
THAT'S who he reminded me of. Thx
super cool debate format
Throughout my years of schooling, the most extremist political views I've encountered have never come from my teachers or textbooks, but from my family or friends, and if we're being honest, people are pressured way more by parents or there immediate friend circle than the random feminist social studies teacher they had in high school.
If anything, I always wished my teachers were *more* ideological and political during class, because I loved to argue with them and show my peers just how intellectual I was.
I'm of the opinion that most people who are concerned about teachers brainwashing students are actually upset that they couldn't brainwash their kids themselves. They may also be projecting their lack of ability for critical thought to their children. Lastly, it's just kind of insulting to students. Young people may be more radicalist or adhere to obscure ideologies, but what do you expect? That's a tale as old as time. Kids are only getting smarter; the only thing they lack is experience and wisdom. You would be less concerned and more optimistic if you just had patience.
One of my favorite show formats on youtube. Keep it up!
3:37 Ngl, his answer was a let down, I mean kudos on him for getting Destiny take correct first try but his arguement was so broad Destiny probably didn't say it cuz he didn't expect it to be as simple as "everything corrupt"
Yeah, the denial felt a bit performative.
one of the best conversations on youtube. I used to listen to Reid, started to listen to Destiny this year, now I found another person to follow: you Peter! Great conversations
I dont think the loan comparison works because it is literally in their lifetimes, and having a discriminatory policy will only breed more racial animosity the same way it is apparently happening with the loans, except to a more extreme degree since the people being punished would be generations who had done nothing wrong.
"Will only"
It doesn't have to 100% the same in oder to compare something, in fact it can't be. It's just a node for understanding perspective
@@stevereed2472 I know, I'm saying it's a really bad comparison for him to make for his own defense. He should look for one that goes with his point, not against it
@DrBocks I mean, the animosity he described that people have who payed off their loans is a perfect example of black peoples animosity for having been held back for 400 years. It's bot all in their lifetime but it's muuuuuuuuuch longer
@stevereed2472 so the solution would be to build that animosity from a much larger group towards black people? That sounds like a recipe for recreating the worst time period of the US.
As much as it sucks and feels bad, I don't think this is the solution to "fix" the problem. Worst case scenario, there is no fix, but culture happens in a whole and the current dominant left-wing thought is white people (even those born today) have wronged black people and need to pay up.
I think part of the "past discrimination/present discrimination" problem on the other side that also makes me lean more neutral is that it's not just about equality. For example, in Destiny's hypothetical of a historically-mistreated group working hard and achieving parity with the other, I'm not sure if it's part of what he meant or not but because they had to work harder to catch up, who's to say that other group wouldn't have got even further than they did after that hard work if they didn't have a handicapped starting position? I'm not trying to virtue signal saying minorities are better or something, I just mean in the hypothetical. If group A mistreated B in a way which slowed down their educational and societal advancements and they were able to overcome it through a long time of hard work, then we don't know if that same hard work could have led to further advancements that would help out the whole of both groups. If someone in group B worked his ass off and became a successful businessman making $200k/year , that's awesome. _However,_ if in an alternate universe where he wasn't starting from behind, we see that his unhindered-potential was actually that he would have been a Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, then he still got fucked. Or say he worked hard enough to become a medical research assistant, but in the alternate reality his effort would have been enough to get better funding/education and he would have cured cancer. It's more about the principle than anything to me. If you steal $50 from Bill Gates, it's still wrong, even if it's negligible to him. So to me it doesn't matter if group B makes it on their own, because the wrong that was done was still wrong.
I do still lean pretty heavily neutral though, because there are obviously lots of problems with that which complicate things. All the things like "the modern person wasn't the person wronged, the other modern person wasn't the one who wronged them, how do you determine who gets it, could the resources be better used another way, _what_ means of restitution is fair/effective and how much is the right amount", etc etc etc.
Listening to Destiny reminds me of when I was in college and overhearing people at 3am, whacked out on ritalin or coke, solving the world's problems. A more productive conversation about meritocracy would move away from groups, & to individuals. Parents properly raising their children and giving them the tools to succeed will always be more effective than abstract notions of society lifting up or pushing down groups defined by immutable or arbitrary characteristics.
Your solution is the equivalent of saying that if people stopped being mean then everyone would be happy. Good job
There is no “corrective discrimination” to compensate for past discrimination. That is actually just revenge. The reciprocal of discrimination is a lack of discrimination because what ppl do not understand is discrimination is viewed through the lens of consequentialism, and it creates consequences those being discriminated against and those that it ostensibly favors. Those consequences are somewhat subjective, believe it or not, and for those who preach relativism those consequences could be argued to be good or bad simply depending on what you believe defines good and bad, subjectively. So in other words, you cannot cancel out discrimination with reverse discrimination-that just introduces a new set of consequences. If you are not a consequentialist then you can only really correct for discrimination by moving towards non-discrimination
16:15 Equitable and equality are not the same thing...
Yep.
Equity: equal outcome
Equality: equal opportunity
It isn't that important of a distinction in this context, since he says " i think there are ways that you can remedy outcomes" right before this.
If you look at 31:20 it seems pretty clear that it's a slip of the tongue and he's meaning to allude to equality in these cases.
wow, you watched that one jordan peterson video. now you're an expert on the meaning of words.
annoying definition fetishism. how about actually listening to what's being said instead of zooming in on a single word and imposing some irrelevant hyper-specific definition on it
25:55 The example Destiny gave ironically illustrates how fair treatment and time can erase a past bad treatment. If you starve a group of people for a while, they will massively underperform, but if you start feeding both group equally after that, at the start the first group will have figurative scars due to the recent starvation, but eventually, they will have entirely recovered and perform as well as the second group, yet they were never compensated for their mistreatment.
2 intelligent minds working through topics with logic and respect. This was good
Probably commenting on this too late for Peter to see, but he used the word "epitaph" when he meant "epithet". (May have just been a simple misspeak, but I'm just pointing it out in the hoooope he reads this comment, because if it's a regular error, he may prefer to know rather than continue having the words mixed up in his head.)
I STRONGLY AGREE that destiny is a woman's name
We will never have a perfect society. That’s because people will never be perfect. Equity of outcome may sound righteous & it certainly does in the rear view mirror of history. But at best, it is a fast track to a two tiered society where everyone must stay in the same fishbowl while the all powerful government manages every aspect of our lives.
Destiny reminds me of the intellectuals of last century who admired the socialism experiment in USSR. He should do a deep dive into what happened to only every single group, one group at a time including the enthusiast communists.
We can never ever give our government the power to divide us by our descriptions
That's not his position at all; in the broadest sense, he wants historical influences and social pressures to be minimized so that people can do what they are best at.
He has never purported to want equity of outcome (which is why he disagrees at 13:31 and is neutral at 15:47). His neutral stance is that there may be an argument that some inequity in outcomes might warrant compensation if it is unjust, but he isn't sure that it is that compelling. This is clearly a position of equal opportunities rather than equal outcomes.
@@KkernelSanders I’ve listened to him in enough interviews and I think he’s splitting hairs.
Came from the Douglas Murray speech at 1.5x 😳🤣
I don’t think trans-generational punishment towards those with privileged past or reward for those with unprivileged past should be considered in any sense. It’s unfair and the idea should not be group retaliation or rewarding, especially not in the hand of a centralized authority, partly because how subjective it is.
I still stand that there’s non-corruptive, non-punishing methods of corrective action to get people on the same playing field. To me, it would be limited to _outreach_ to inherently disaffected and underrepresented populations - not preference during application considerations. That limitation would apply to the universities themselves. I wouldn’t be opposed to organizations that also identify and then offer support to the underrepresented populations.
Notably, these change with time, and already won’t fall along lines such as race, which do not effectively capture the issue. (E.g. racial considerations resulting in wealthy black Nigerian first generation students getting assistance and preference, while impoverished Asian Americans get essentially penalized compared to the mean student)
It does create a strange incentive structure, where if I work hard to earn money to send my kids to a good school, those efforts are then used to justify effectively penalizing my child’s college application.
It’s opinions like this that confirm people genuinely don’t care about merit or justice
I have been pronouncing your last name wrong for years... till now.
Great video!
Why does destiny look different in every video she's in.
Peter Boghassian is a breath of fresh air. He encourages open debate about differing opinions and tries to get them to justify and question their opinion. We need more of this type of discussion.
Destiny got some beautiful pants!
He really likes blue.
I love to see you two take these questions to bigger depts and talk about the actual problems and realistic solutions rather than the usual "education bad because I know a guy who's in debt" bullshit on the internet
The average viewer won't engage with that though. All things being equal, you will always get more clicks from sensational content versus rational content.
Destiny can you please stop wearing sweatpants all the time 😭
Jeans aren't always the most confortable.
@@lb_anth0ny240comfort isn't always of utmost importance
@@adamsmith307 for you
23:14 The addition of led paint chips here is actually a super interesting association here... were there cereals or food products sold in regions that didn't get phased out as fast as say, rich suburban areas? How long did Led poisoning persist, I'm assuming 90s, but maybe early 2000s too?
“Destiny a black woman’s name”
Short answer, yes.
Dayum… destiny come on with the clothes brotha…. People look up to you please at least wear jeans when in public
its so embarrassing tbh
Why? He's wearing his good pajamas.
@@TubeWusel ok loser
@@TubeWusel it’s not hurt feelings you dress for the job you want not the job you have. Destiny wants the job he has so it works for him but he is dooming his impressionable audience to a life of an unsuccessful in-cell
@@TubeWusel ok, so you’re under 18 😂❤
This style of conversation is pretty interesting
Would somebody remind Destiny that since he said he hasn’t done “a deep dive into DEI” that he should do that first before attempting to have an informed conversation on the subject?
Maybe he’s using this discussion to inform himself more? Seems weird that you would want him to just not have a discussion with someone who has the knowledge.
@@ediewyseI think he would have seen some of his wordy opinions as unexamined assumptions had he done the deep dive into the subject as he qualified he didn’t do. This would be a more constructive discussion in my opinion
@@nancykisich3263 Why are you pretending as if he's clueless, he's even interviewed Dr Peter Arcidiacono... Maybe someone should remind you to try being less biased and use a little bit of your brain when writing comments.
@@ediewyse god I can’t stand his blind followers….
@@Macheako how am I a blind follower? Did my comment lead you to believe I'm blind to any facts?
Great discourse! 👏 Happy to hear these two put their thoughts into words in a productive manner.
At 5:16 Steven says "the contrapositive" but then actually talks about the inverse (which is not logically equivalent), the contrapositive would be something like "if they are not corrupt, they most likely do not have a diversity department"
Yea the dude is always pretending to be smarter than he is
if you ever hear destiny preface something with "well then you could also just say ..." brace yourself for a logical fallacy
What Destiny lacks in coherence he more than makes up for in rapid speaking and fidgety body language.
@@bigbonker9864 he just misspoke but continue assuming mal intent and you’ll only further stunt yourself intellectually.
@bawbdmo2611 can you name a progressive stance destiny has that aged well?
Wait I clicked on this for destiny, what is with the extremely weird framing/need for outside shouting and the first intro line up? Like I get the positioning thing, but like once they've indicated their spots why make the mic guy walk back and forth, why not then scooch back together???
I get that Destiny is a “rebel” but you gotta admit, his clothing looks like he wears the same stuff to go work out, take a shit and appear in front of thousands of people. Kinda weird lol
he isnt a rebel. He basically is aligned with cnn on 100% of the issues
He really needs a stylist.
If you're wearing a suit, do you change out of it to take a shit and then put it back on?
@@zack49 People will do so many vain and pointless fucking things just to convince themselves they are better than animals
@@zack49 I just might!
Why film outside on a windy beach?
The education system has become dangerous. People with extreme political views should never be allowed to teach young adults. The Ivy League schools should be shut down
Why?
@@TubeWusel Be a lunatic elsewhere thank you
Shut down and replaced with what restrictions? Curious what the rebuilding of education would be that doesn’t re-create the issue or worse…
… or if we decide to no longer collectively aim for universal truths anymore
Maybe it's covered, but he didn't do the contrapositive at 5:10. He did the inverse, which is not equivalent to the original proposition. The contrapositive would be that if an institution is not corrupt, it probably doesn't have a DEI department.
Disinclusion, Egocentrism, and Idiocracy
"im14andthisisdeep"
youre the kid in the 5th grade going "wow real eyes, realise, real lies :OOO "
shut up
Very interesting and productive from both parties!
The Setup is so awkward lol
Very civil, guys. Nicely done.
Why does this mf love those blue pants so much
Worse they're sweatpants
It's the Lululemon's!
On the podcast you had with destiny, I was going to comment that you needed to follow this format with "debators".
Yucky first time I heard Peter he sounded reasonable. Unfortunately he's got some major brain worms surrounding academics. I would suggest reconsidering your entire mindset regarding the education system Peter. Why attribute malice what could easily be explained with incompetence? It's clear that people want what's best for the country people just have different ideas what that is and that's where living in a Liberal democracy allows us to debate this. To insist there's such massive corruption modern academia should be burned to the ground is untenable and not reflective of the reality in which the US is still the best when it comes to higher education and it's not close. Perhaps there are issues but advocate to fix those don't be weird.
Maybe "corruption" isn't a malicious and intentional thing in his belief? IDK, just spitballin' for an explanation
In general, you're correct but you're ignoring the people who have literally said it was intentionally done. For your version to be correct, you would also have to assume those individuals are lying. Those claiming it is done deliberately are not the majority but they have disproportionate influence.
@polarized3358
You are clearly still indoctrinated, yucky.
I've hated Destiny to date because when he appears on Lex Fridman he 1) isn't a STEM gem and 2) doesn't say anything that makes me think it's worth the opportunity cost to have him there. This is the first thing I've seen that made me appreciate the guy. I think his choices and arguments were very level-headed here and more fair than Peter's. LOVE the debate format and hoping people respect it and don't break it. Respect to those who respect the spirit of the format, and respect to Peter for implementing this. If I see more of this from Destiny, I may even venture to his channel one day.
This feels like a cute bro date for some reason
9:20 This is the view I held when I was in college in the early 00s.
agreed with peter - academia is broken - beyond repair.
in my opinion its not just higher learning either - its education in general.
I’m still pretty young, and currently working on a PhD in a STEM field so maybe my mix of ignorance and relative seclusion from humanities insanity let’s me feel this way, but making the statement that it is broken beyond repair is very extreme and not connected to reality at all. In my entire college education which spanned from 2019 to 2023, I remember one instance of a class being taken up to mention things about race or diversity, and one class where things like colonialism were mentioned, but that was an English class about science fiction when we were discussing War of the Worlds by HG Wells. I think that a relatively level-headed student, like I would like to think I am, can go through college collecting very valuable knowledge while also seeing and not taking extremely seriously the crazy woke stuff.
@@parkerlincoln49 feel free to review this comment in a few years when you are in industry. As your doing your doctorate, that may never be the case of course, as you may become a teacher.
If you are following an academic career path obviously academia is the right course for you - but I would direct you to look at how much legitimate scientific breakthroughs come from academia, how much from industry, and how much from individuals with private backing or no backing.
The brokenness, isn't just DEI related.. its the simple fact that schools and universities are not teaching people the skills needed by industry! Further more they ARE teaching students an attitude problem, one which most employers are recognizing and becoming more cautious about hiring graduates - knowing that they will
A: have to train them anyway
B: have to 'untrain' them in certain ideas.
Industry apprenticeships are coming back in a big way... hence I'm confident in saying yes. Academia IS indeed broken.
@@parkerlincoln49sweetheart….youre young…..
Don’t ever lose that 😂❤
Great work. This stuff is so important.
Destiny is a dreamer, and no all groups are not equal in ability.
What do you think of the notion that everyone is born with the same level of intellectual potential (except the outliers at both ends)?
The key factors in reaching potential being opportunity, belief in one's self and desire/passion.
@@lukemclellan2141 thats not even remotely the case the differences between groups is immense on average sub saharan Africa in particular fall far short. The same also applies within the US when it comes to academic performance. Charles Murray has some great interviews on this subject.
@@svenhaheim far short of what?
Whatever it is, could it be explained by the opportunity factor I mentioned?
@@lukemclellan2141 A term google dislike being used in the comments section but Ill try... IQ.
@@svenhaheim haha, yeah right?!
I'm only asking questions, not trying to convince you of anything... Does IQ deserve to be held as the standard that it is/has been? Would/could peoples from parts of the world without a structured education system meaure acceptable IQ levels if they were exposed to it?