HOTD S2 - Episode 3 is Really Conflicting
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- A review of House of the Dragon Episode 3 - The Burning Mill. This episode was pretty flawed, especially in the area of the writing for the ending of the episode. I do a deep dive into what I think is wrong with it and how it could be better.
Patreon: www.patreon.com/user/membersh...
Discord link: / discord
Letterboxd: letterboxd.com/SupercutDelight/
Thank you to my Patrons: Logan Farmer and Jernej
Music:
Assassins Creed 2 OST - Sanctuary
![The Green Council & The Black Queen FINALE! [HOTD 1x9 1x10] HOUSE OF THE DRAGON REACTION [1x9 1x10]](/img/n.gif)
There's some more discourse surrounding the end of the episode that I want to address in this comment so:
1. “It’s ok for characters to make bad decisions. That doesn’t mean it’s bad writing.” This isn’t a blanket statement that fits everything. An example of a well-written mistake is Daemon initiating Blood and Cheese. Daemon as a character genuinely thought this was a good idea for multiple reasons and him making this blunder essentially falls in line with his character. He’s reckless, craves revenge, and wants to rush into conflict. So him making this blunder stays true to his character. For Rhaenyra, there are more conflicting elements about this decision that makes her character seem inconsistent. She carefully considers her actions, but when it comes to meeting Allicent she immediately launches herself on this mission with no deliberation. She knows for a fact that Allicent will treat her kindly even though she personally knows how revenge can cloud your mind. She wants to prevent the war by going there, but she also should know Allicent doesn’t hold any true power. There’s enough here and more I haven’t list to make this a pretty head-scratching decision from Rhaenyra because it doesn’t make sense from her perspective. This is a mistake she makes that she probably shouldn’t make.
2. “Allicent has too much respect for Rhaenyra to betray her.” This is probably the most debatable one and I’d argue that Allicent by this point would most likely value her family over not betraying Rhaenyra. Given that their “friendship” has been on a massive decline since like episode 5 of season 1. They make up a bit in episode 8, but that’s a far cry from still being really close to each other. Out of all the issues though, this one doesn’t bother me as much because it’s a plausible thing that Allicent may do.
3. “Rhaenyra is acting irrationally.” Sure, I guess? But if she’s always wanted to prevent a war then her past actions have clearly contradicted that sentiment. You can argue that it has “gotten out of hand” but it’s literally war. If she didn’t think people would get their hands dirty then that would make her pretty dense. She has always been pretty smart and sharp in the past so her being blindsided by this fact seems a little silly to me.
ok
I disagree with the idea that Rhaenyra has been pretty sharp and smart in the past. In fact, she has always struggled to understand how power and diplomacy worked, which led her to making mistakes like leaving Kings Landing (and allowing Alicent to rule unopposed) and sending Luke to Storms End (because she expected Borros would just fall in line because of his father's oath). She is not a very shrewd queen
In this episode, she is effectively delusional, she refuses to accept the reality she lives in, created by Daemon's actions, and is engaging in magical thinking, trying to undo what can't be undone. This is nicely illustrated by her younger self in Daemon's vision: trying to sew a decapitated head back on, as if that can make the boy return to life again. A completely pointless action by someone who refuses to accept that she can't change what happened.
Also, it doesn't help that she's currently being advised by Rhaenys, who's just trying to vicariously rule through Rhaenyra to live out her own queen fantasy. She constantly gives horrible advice to Rhaenyra, mainly to indulge in the fantasy she has of herself as the wise, patient, restrained queen who knows it all so much better than all those "men who just want war". This leads Rhaenys to effectively sabotage Rhaenyra's council and convince Rhaenyra to not listen to the (wise and sensible) advice of her councillors.
As for her recklessness, she has always been reckless, but also wants peace which leads her to be indecisive in council, but easily go on a reckless and foolish mission, if she believes that mission can accomplish peace.
I do agree there are several flaws in this episode, but I do think Rhaenyra's character is consistent (although she's a completely different person than in the books, obviously, much more than can ever be explained by the 'unreliable narrator' excuse).
I don't think Rhaenyra carefully considers her actions, she carefully considers launching dragons into war, she doesn't want to get to that point. She feels the weight of the responsibility that her father passed on to her. And in a moment of desperation she does something stupid, but I don't think it's out of character. She is Viserys' successor in his ideas and philosophies as well and she knows that this war could be the end of House Targaryen. It's not a trivial thing for her to make this decision.
I think there's another angle you may not have considered regarding Rhaenyra's motives here. I believe Rhaenyra is selfish and basically a narcissist. She made this risky, grand gesture to try to prove to herself that she did everything possible to prevent this war, and now she will be able to murder a shitload of people guilt free. She will tell herself, "look at the lengths I went to stop this from happening. There is nothing else I could do."
But she wasn't willing to sacrifice anything new in the negotiation. Alicent asks if she had come to surrender. Not only would she not give up, she didn't have any wiggle room anywhere. I've seen this in real life quite a bit where people do something big, appeal to emotion, but when you break it down they aren't actually willing to give any important ground. They are saying the same thing they've been saying the whole time.
The reason I think I'm right about this is because you can hear her telling, probably Jace in the Next Ep preview that she needed to know for sure that there was no way to avoid this, now she'll send the Dragons to war.
So she needed to unburden herself, and she'll now feel like she is justified to fuck shit up. I just hope the audience doesn't view her act of fake desperation as a noble one. It should be remembered that she wasn't actually willing to offer anything up there - she only did it so she can lie to / comfort herself about how she tried. This is what will help her sleep at night. And she needed that.
Still that opening scene between Blackwood’s and brackens
I understand people criticising teleporting around and things happening too quickly, but I do think people forget how close Dragonstone is to Kings landing geographically.
And nearly every travel has taken place within the riverlands
They’re a days ride away by dragon, not by boat. Rhaenyra told her counselors she would think about it, then spent like a week traveling to and from Kings Landing by boat.
I read a review a couple days ago it felt like that reviewer has clearly never looked at the map. Aegon even refers to Dragonstone being "across the bay" IN THIS EPISODE. Dragonstone's is near Kingslanding, it is a secondary castle for the royal family within the Crownlands. The Greens have to keep an active dragon in KL at all times because they at any moment Rhaenyra could easily go nuclear and launch a dragon attack on them.
Hotd established back in S1 that Kingslanding is a day away from Dragonstone, as well as in S2
@@rinmathews9337 Where does it say that Dragonstone is a days ride by dragon away? Many Targs in the book do quick travels between Dragonstone and Kings Landing.
The main problem is how rhaenyra and so many others are still "anti war" when the s1 finales whole point was that lukes death is the breaking point of war and there is no turning back now
Right? Everyone at the end of Season 1 was like “oh it’s on now” and in full support of Rhaenyra, but now we are supporting her hesitation? I don’t want Rhaenyra to be a cruel monarch but in moments of war, she needs to be as ruthless as the worse one in order to win, and I want her to win, because only then will she be able to rule as a fair monarch.
@@aileenpi73 HOTD has a huge problem with making all the women in it kind and innocent...when they were the opposite in the book..even cold and grey at moments...just hope they learn their lesson for season 3
@@rohaankhan7523 Right, that's why they came up with the silly contrived scene with the dying king speaking Aegon's name, which is why Alicent put him on the throne. That was so corny and silly, and Alicent putting her son on the throne for her own interests or families' interest is much more realistic. They just did that to give her an out.
@@rohaankhan7523like I get it generally men are more prone to violence but that doesn't mean that Rhaenyra has to be so inert, like at least give us a plan. Like I was just annoyed with Rhaenys the entire episode. I know that the black council were on edge but they are kinda right. I honestly found Aegon's scene with the green council because it shows his flaws but is still entertaining. Rhaenyra is definitely her father's daughter with how indecisive she is.
@@rohaankhan7523ah yes kind and innocent, like when Alicent tried to mutilate Luke.
Rhaenyra’s been written into a hole that it feels like it’s gonna be REALLLYYY hard to get out of. What happened to her rage at the end of season 1? The writers are so concerned with making Rhaenyra seem “good” that they’re making her inactive and have barely her own autonomy in her own camp. It’s bizarre.
Yeah, S1 literally ends with her making a determined face but I guess immediately after the camera cut she went into shock and was paralyzed?
@@secondeye1574 you know what she probably just “kinda forgot” about it 😌
She’s mad at Aemond not at everyone. She just wanted Aemond, not a war
Agreed. Season 2 is really just committing to everyone being pro war like it’s some force of nature and they’re making hasty decisions everywhere. There’s a great quote from Rhys Ifans where he says in his mind there’s no heroes and it’s just a bunch of entitled bloodthirsty villains on the front lines.
Between this show and other fan channels talking about how terrible the reigns of all the subsequent Aegons after the Dance were, the whole story is really about how the Targaryens and the world of Westeros continually regressed all the way until GOT season 8 when Dany decides to burn it all down and start over. Ultimately, I wonder how long I'm even going to keep watching series based in this world. HOTD is interesting for now, but it's a story that we all know the ending to already. Then HBO is doing yet another two spinoffs of the same Targaryen storyline after that, also stories we already know the ending to. It's not like any of this ever gets better. The Targaryens are a dumpster fire from start to finish. Personally, I'd rather have shows about Essos. It's a far more interesting continent with even cooler magic. With material like Asshai-by-the-Shadow, Qarth, Yeen and Yi Ti, it really seems like a missed opportunity that HBO isn't directing its resources to more robust storylines, including more than just one family, and that don't all just end in disaster. Or at least give us something about The Long Night or the Children of the Forest. I may check out after season 2 ends.
Otto was the most competent councillor, but aren't Tyland, Ironrod and Orwyle reasonably intelligent characters as well? I don't think they're supposed to be completely lost without Otto, although it is a blow.
Tyland is a bit of a goof but yeah Ironrod and Orwyle broadly speaking have given sound enough advice. They aren't Varys or Otto, but they aren't useless councilors who can't function without a big boy.
Otto seemed to be the only man who could actually influence Aegon as seen in ep1 throne scene. The other councillors aren't dumb, but if the king won't listen, it's meaningless.
@@bruhmcmoment196 But now Aegon wouldn't listen to Otto because of his soon to be new councilor, Larys.
Otto was the one everyone looked to for the final decision and his insight. All three were the ones speaking the most during the meeting, but like I said. Could not decide on what to do without Otto, which created bickering.
@@edd4131 They deferred to him as a veteran hand of the king, not because they can't think when he's not there to defer to.
For me it's the constant infiltration in each other's camp. Episode 1: Daemon infiltrates King's Landing. Episode 2: Erryk infiltrates Dragonstone. Episode 3: Rhaenyra literally sits by Alicent... I'm starting to see a certain pattern that I'm guessing will become a very serious problem for the show. As the characters are divided into two factions, we have two sets of characters that barely interact with each other. Therefore, is quite complicate to have arguments moving in a dynamic way without turning it into something too stale. Dear lord, I hope they realize how to fix it soon or, otherwise, in a couple of seasons, we'll have a secret corridor connecting Rahernyra and Alicent's chambers and they sleeping side by side every night. Girl, bye.
Great observation, the scenes you mentioned are plain crazy. It's like there's no guards or security at all, like all security is flawed in both sides.
It's not stale though. The character interactions within the factions have been fantastic this season. The Greens have a very great multi-layered family conflict, and the Blacks, well they're pretty boring but Daemon and Rhaenyra had a great argument. They had no reason to force these bizarre infiltrations, and the fact that they did it 3 episodes in a row is laughable
@@nassorm5634 Exactly. In a situation of war, one would expect both armies to be en full defensive modes. And here, it looks like you can go in and go out in both of them like nothing happened.
Wars is literally about to break out so I don't think that's a big issue
@@jo_jo_jo You would expect that with more competent people in charge. There's a saying that goes, "hard times produce strong men, strong men produce good times, good times produce weak men, weak men produce hard times." Or something like that. The Targs have been dominating for so long, that they've gotten lazy. They've shown this in quite a few ways this season. They haven't dealt with any real threat in a hundred years or so. They probably would have been removed from power earlier if they didn't have dragons. The dragons allow them to cover up for their lack of fundamentals. Tywin would have never allowed a low born knight to ascend to be hand. He wouldn't allow some random creep to be in charge of hiring the entire castle staff. He wouldn't allow a single royal door to be left unguarded. When you are watching Game of Thrones, you have this vision of the Targ dynasty being a well-oiled machine and the height of competency, but it makes perfect sense that after a couple of generations, it is anything but that. They are hiring frat bros to the kingsguard now. They allow rat catchers to get all up in their personal space. These people are sloppy and even moreso now that Otto is gone.
On top of that, they didn't have security cameras and shit. It isn't that crazy to think that someone who they clearly built up as one of the most well-connected people in Kings Landing (Mysaria) could sneak people into its boarders. Or that a literal identical twin could get by guards that are obviously not going to question their superior every single time he passes them.
These guys are cocky and sloppy because they didn't have to build or earn the position that their great grandparents got for them.
The whole idea of rhaenyra going to kings landing feels like a plan from season 7 of got
Yup, make it make sense
It weak, but not that weak for me.
Lmfao, it's like season 7 jon going beyound the wall to catch a withe walker with his crew of 7 people.
@@ikram-258and Daenerys dragons magically flying pass the wall even though in the books they can't which led to one of her dragons dying and being resurrected lmaoo it was this bad
@@jada9401Wait! You’re saying something happened in the dramatized TV series that didn’t occur in the books? Wild! Never knew that was possible.
The Harrenhall part is so good, the dark feel of it was spot on, the rest was meh
As long as daemon is on the screen it is good
Really? I was hoping he would cut down a few men, the cinematic feeling was there but him wearing that sick armor had me hoping it would be like a horror film almost when the guards attack knowing caraxes was there.
@@Spida_Chapplliinnwhy would he had to cut down some men. He takes harrenhall without spilling blood. And castle's castlean is just some weak men who actually despise larys.
Can't wait for Jace's turn to sneak into the red keep next episode
He will meet up with Helaena to apologize for Blood & Cheese and she will be like "To be honest I never really cared much for him, innocent or otherwise" and then they dance.
@@f_f_f_8142 "You are muh queeeen"
@@hamzamahmood9565 “I don wannit. I neva av.”
You’re absolutely right. This episode was disappointing. They’re trying too hard to make Rhaenyra the good guy of the story, which leads to bs scenes like the one at the end.
U are 100% correct shxt getting ridiculous
Fr. They're trying too hard that they don't realize that what we as fans want is a bloodthirsty Rhaenyra who wants to avenge her children and take her throne by fire and blood, not a goodie one who wants to avoid war at all costs.
why are people saying that. A person who is willingly to use 2 young people as shield for her own children is not potrayed as good person. Why people forget that she uses both children of daemon either as surrogate mother for her children and the other one basically as cannonfodder. I my books that is not a heroic deed.
They've been doing that since season one
Next they'll show Alicent in a brothel
The destruction of ones entire house and the dissolution of a prophecy that Targaryans have been warning each other about since the conquest are both good reasons to stamp out war by any means, no matter how idiotic it seems. That’s my opinion though. Maybe Rhaenyra should’ve read the books?
Trying so hard to make it black and white is what would ruin this show
Is it because that's all the writers understand or is it because they think that's all the audience is capable of understanding?
I'm realy starting to be annoyed by how hard they are trying to withewash Rheanyra, i liked the younger version better
@@ikram-258 To play devil's advocate, these last few episodes have given Alicent and even Otto a sympathetic side too.
@@seto_kaiba_ it did but at the same time they are butchering cole's character for no reason other than to make Rhaenyra look good, and i don't like that at all. It's taking the nuance of this conflict which made it intresting to beggin with. I can only hope they will fix that and make Rheanyra fall into tyrany over time as she is supposed to
The scene at the end made Luke's death feel pointless. Luke's death was meant to be a turning point, the start of the Dance, the thing that enraged Rhaenyra. But I guess she just kinda forgot about that and now doesn't want war?
It's so obvious at this point in the story that we're at a point of no return. Having Rhaenyra go on a reckless side quest to meet up with Alicent in an attempt to prevent war just makes her look incredibly stupid
Jahaerys’ death probably helped her realize how grave the situation is going to be
Luke's death literally has ZERO impact on Rhaenyra's character. Blood and Cheese also almost has no imapct on Alicent's character, like it does a little bit but not enough to change anything about her motivations. Such wastes of potential
Becoz she was deeply affected and guilt ridden with the horrific death of baby jahaerys. Doesnt matter if she did not ordered the assasination. Every Westerosi, including her council believes she did so. So much that she almost believed she had a hand on it herself.
@@EmceeMOTH Yeah, I did think about this, and I think it is a good counter-argument. She was furious after the death of Luke but then after B&C, she snapped back to reality and fully realised the horrors & cost of war. So I do kinda get it
I do still think that her meeting up with Alicent was a stupid plan though, and it felt forced from a writing POV. If they wanted another Alicent and Rhaenyra scene, surely they could have done it later in the season/next season at a more natural time?
@@DonkeyFrost129MC I don't know. It kind of reminded me of Rudolf Hess. For those who don't know, Rudolf Hess was a leading member of the Nazi Party in Nazi Germany. He was appointed Deputy Führer to Adolf Hitler. In 1941 he flew solo to Scotland in an attempt to negotiate with the United Kingdom to get them to pull out of the Second World War. Of course, he was taken prisoner and convicted of various crimes against peace. He got a life sentence, and eventually took his own life in prison in 1987.
Was it a stupid plan? Sure. Yet he did it. The difference was that Rhaenyra didn't suffer any consequences for her risky plan.
The only reason the redundant scenes even bother me is bc 90% of Jace's Winterfell story was cut, and this season was paired down from 10 episodes to 8. If we're on such a tight time budget, every scene has to count.
I hate this 8 episode season crap. Amazon started this and hbo is following it. Granted, these hotd episodes are actually significantly longer than they would be with seasons with 10 episodes.
Why is everyone so cleverly analyzing this show are under the delusion that killing Rheneara instantly ends the war? She has multiple heirs, Daemon and many dragons. Her side can continue with most of its power after her death.
Having her as an hostage would have been beneficial… a lot…
Also half of her children are bastards (everyone know it).
Spoilers
Plus if you read the books you know rhaeneyras death didn’t end the war anyway and that was after even all the major players were dead anyway
This. Amazing comment bro, people still have that GOT season 8 taste in their mouth lmao. Like relax bruh
Bro having a hostage of this stature gives them major bargaing rights and if alicent was well and truly otto's daughter she would have known it, this was a pretty dumb move and was purely for the drama
Yeah that's like saying killing Aemond doesn't end the war so if you get a chance to capture him without losing anything on your own side, let him go.
Just as with GoT, the worst parts of HotD are when the show deviates from the books
and it deviates so much
Mored red flags than the Lannisters
But why is no one discussing the killer theme song when Cole and his mates march out of Kings Landing??
I know! I was trying to figure out if it had a name so I could find it somewhere! I had to rewind to hear it again! So good!
Can't wait for the OST to come out 🔥
@@MetalGamer666you're just going to have to wait until august when the OST comes out
I thought it sounded very generic, maybe it's because a play a lot of games with similar tracks, CIV6, CKII, etc.
The last 15 minutes fanfic scene really felt like we were back in GoT season 7-8. Yep this episode was really weak, probably one of the worst of the show. Some cool scenes though, mainly Daemon (as usual) and Baela chasing Criston and co off with her dragon.
Don’t get how people didn’t like the scene
@@Gopackgoinfinity Because its terrible and makes no sense? In order to arrange the scene to play out, the writers had to betray both Rhaenyra and Alicent characters, and undermine the terrible stakes they are in. Realistically, either Rhaenyra would never go with such a reckless plan, or if she did for whatever reason (no, being friends in the past doesn't cut it) then Alicent would arrest her right there to prevent war. Rhaenyra doing such a crazy plan and having zero repercussion makes this feel a lot less serious and more like a comedy show. Exactly like Season 07-08.
@@fratystuff6737 she’s a reckless character with a sisterly bond, most smallfolk don’t know what the royal family look like especially when dressed as a nun.
I think it more written to for the actors to show their skills!!!! and Characters have some lines on show.
@@Gopackgoinfinity But their shouldnt be any bond left. Alicent thinks Rhaenyra is behind B&C she has every reason to despise her.
The thing that doesn't really help is that on one side sending the twin of a bodyguard to kill the queen is treated as the dumbest plan ever but somehow Rhaenyra going alone in Kings'Landing without protection for a doomed diplomatic mission is supposed to a wise and deep decision
who exactly is treating it as a wise decision? literally not a single soul knows about her plan except Mysaria and the guy who was paid to escort her into the sept
do you even watch the show?
@@nikolascsgo Yeah exactly, even in the scene Rhaenyra pulls out a knife and alicent almost freaks out and gives the whole plan away, Rhaenyra in her own defence just said she'd kill allicent if discovered and that is all she has to protect herself, with her kingsguard outsite the sept. I think we will see Rhaenyra get torn appart by her war council for this plan.
@@nikolascsgo the showruners does, if you watch the inside the episode they describe it as a courageous act to save the kingdom without pointing out the flaws
@@liolio4945 courage and wisdom arent the same thing. It clearly is a courageous thing to do but not very wise. Rhaenyra is desperate and makes one last hail mary attempt to stop the enevitable. May not be a good plan, but its natural writing
No, it's not natural writing. It was extremely unrealistic and shattered the authenticity of itself in that moment.
I do agree with what you say. The changes after Otto is removed from the council wasn't looked into very much.
I mostly agree but you can see that things out getting out of control with Cole and Amond on the council both pushing things to be more violent, and the other council members were more outspoken without Otto being there.
The last 10 minutes in this episode are the worst things i witnessed in a very long time
We witnessed something similar 5 to 6 years ago
I was like wtf is she doing everyone IN the show and the entire audience OUTSIDE the show are telling her there’s no turning back ITS WAR
I hated this episode. The moment when Rhaenyra decided that she would go to King's Landing, I felt like turning off the show because I hate seeing another Game of Thrones scenario where all the characters do dumb things while having plot armor just to create "a cool scene." If you don't know how to write, don't! You have a massive source of dialogue from the book-just use it!
But they obviously thought they could do better than RR Martin. You see, what that original MALE author missed was the fact that Rhaenyra and Alicent are good, kind, smart, strong women that just want to avoid war but can't because the bloodthirsty, lying, deceitful, immature and not very smart MEN won't let them. The brilliant writers for HotD needed to really hammer that home for the audience.
@@DavidGravesExists
GRRM is a secondhand writer for the show lmao
GRRM isn’t a writer for hotd, what little he knows it’s because they allow him to know. HBO bought his ip so he doesn’t get to sign off on shit pertaining hotd. STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION TO COPE WITH SHIT WRITING!!!
And IF George is writing behind the scenes there’s no way we get half the contrived bs the writers keep spewing out, so put some respect on GRRM name
I really dislike what they're doing with Raenyra. Does she want the throne and to remove the usurper or does she want peace? She can, at any moment, choose to stop the bloodshed by simply accepting Aegon as the king. But she's like "nah I want the throne but please don't do war". So stupid. I hope the rest of the season doesn't follow that writing becasue this is S7 of GoT level garbage.
Also she took into consideration that Aliscent wouldn't want to talk to her which is why she brought the blade and threatened her with it, but then Aliscent just leaves and is free to alert the guards. Why wouldn't she have Rea at least arrested is beyond stupid.
My greatest complain is that this should be a war between Alicent and Rhaenyra, both leaders of the two factions. Instead both of them feel so passive (because the writers want to make them sympathetic) and all the other characters do the dirty work
It’s because they aren’t Rivals in a normal sense. Their families are the ones truly doing all of the bloodshed and vengeance shit. Not them. Like are we watching the same show?
It sucks. With both S1 and even S2 trailers, they show them as the two leaders of each side and make it a feud between two ambitious women. But in the episodes it's just them whining about how they're the only ones that understand peace. And it's only ever weird weak misunderstandings that cause a "feud"
your complaint is garbage since the queen dowager historically in the material (especially on TV) had zero real power throughout anyone's reign
the fact joffrey was an idiot who could've been molded by cersei and tywin isn't applicable to hotd since alicent isn't cersei and there is no tywin
@secondeye1574 I mean alicent literally isn't in charge, the whole point is it started with them and they passed the division onto theor children who will carry it on regardelss
Well I’d say the first season didn’t do a great job setting them up as being rivals since Alicent was only committing to the green faction based on a lousy misconception. Maybe they will now be committed to the war.
Poor Jaehaerys. Between his mother seemingly moving on (focusing on forgiving Alicent), and Alicent having apparently zero bloodlust towards Rhaenyra, it surprisingly seems like only Aegon is appropriately distraught over his son's horrific murder.
His mother is autistic. She is confused by her grief, and rationalizes it. The portrayal is perfect. She's obviously in agony.
@@SuperStella1111 I’m neurodivergent myself, and I think Phia did a great job in the last two episodes, but something about the forgiving Alicent thing in this episode didn’t really sit with me. 🤷🏻♂️
@karmaplace I think it Heleana's way of saying goodbye to her mother.If you look at the scene you can see the open window in the background and also the light shining on her when she's talking to Alicent
@@karmaplace Did Alicent murder him? Was Alicent meant to be on guard duty? Is Cole the only kingsguard? Was Cole even assigned to Halaena (forgetting the fact that he wasn't even on duty)? Maybe she blames the actual murderers and Daemon and not her mother who is clearly grieving as well.
So you support Daemon’s actions with Blood and Cheese, because that is the appropriate response to a child’s death. Or do you forget Rheanyra lost a child too, due to the irresponsibility and greed of the greens. Actually, she lost two babies.
Rhaenyra meeting Alicent is so stupid. For all Alicent knows, Rhaenyra killed her grandson and traumatized her daughter. In the books Rhaenyra blames the greens for the death of his son and also stillborn daughter. They should have cut this scene entirely. Instead as you said, the small council scene should have been longer. They should have shown us Cole marching onto Duskendale, killing it's lord and having his men join the royal army and then onto Rivers Rook where he laid siege for 9 days before raven arrived to Dragonstone asking for help.
alicent know that Rhaenerya didn’t do blood and cheese . they Just blamed her
I disagree that the hastiness of Rhaenyra's plan goes against her character. She has so far been hesitant to act on war. She basically explains Westeros MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) Doctrine to her council. She has spent the season avoiding the sanctioning of bloodshed, and the only time we see her act she is rather hastily putting herself in harms way to try and avoid bloodshed. I think this is just a way of the show cementing Rhaenyra as an apologetic character, and even Alicent to a lesser degree, since the feud is now well and truly between their children who have adopted the feud.
Edit: Yes, she stated "I want Aemond Targaryen" after her son was murdered, but considering she is a grief-stricken mother who is also a Queen she still didn't sanction anything.
Partially related to this: I think it's pretty neat on the writing front how the thematic throughline of generational war being lost to time was consistently portrayed throughout the episode. From the beginning where we see the Blackwoods vs. Brackens, the lord of Harrenhal's take on the matter, and now it happening in real time with the Blacks vs. The Greens. While I may disagree with some of the details and executions of specific scenes, I still think Ryan Condal is doing a great job in executing the overall story.
her wanting aemond's head was preventing bloodshed?
@@SupercutsDelight Absolutely agree! Generational trauma is a theme throughout, highlighted perfectly with the last supper scene in the last season where Rhaenyra and Alicent had put aside their differences but even by then it was too late for their kids.
Not a criticism of your criticisms at all by the way, I agree things can often be better, but just had to share my opinion on that one specific point! :D
@@roddur1000 A grief-stricken mother stated that she 'wants Aemond Targaryen.' She sanctioned nothing and was appalled with the death of the child. She is not perfect and since she is a Queen she needed to be more measured, but generally speaking she has attempted to avoid bloodshed.
Also serving towards that move being "in character" for her is the stunt she pulled in s1e2 when she flew to Dragonstone without Vizzie's leave to prevent Otto and the company from getting vaemonded. Again, an impulsive action, endangering herself in order to prevent more blood being spilled needlessly
I was surprised nobody was dissatisfied with the way this episode ended. I liked the scenes in harrenhal, and some of the scenes in dragonstone. But things really felt strange to me by the end. It felt so contrived and unlikely in that universe for something like that to happen. That scene seem to have been added for dramatic effect. In the end of the day it won't achieve anything. I'm also not liking the portrayal of women characters are the moral compass of the show, the true image of benevolence, while the men are evil and want war. Daemon in the books is more grey and Aegon also did not wish to usurpe his sister's throne. Some of the agency of these female characters is being taken by simply saying them men are the ones who want war. We should have a story where we question the morality of both sides. When the show tries to frame this side or the other as moraly good, it becomes less interesting. I like the show and I'm still excited for the rest of the season, but they need to do better. And the key is following the source material.
110%. Sick of Cole, Daemon and Aegon being the entire reason for the war while Rhaenys and Rhaenyra and, to a lesser degree, Allicent, are the whole voice of reason.
daemon is in fact gray and aegon did not in fact want to usurp the throne though. one subpar episode doesn’t negate the rest of the good writing lmao y’all need to relax
I am the only one happy that Criston Cole finally has great scenes? The man is showing his battle talents, which he was famous for in the books. I like that for his character, he is pretty competent in fighting. Also, Alicent's brother is fine as well, interesting dynamic these two have.
i heard they ruining coles character next ep and making the rooks rest trap gwaynes plan and not his
@@roddur1000 oh jesus christ can they give Criston smth to be good at... oh well, let's see how it goes
Yeah that and Harrenhal was the only good thing
@@roddur1000brother you better be lying. Why establish in Season 1 Cole being the only knight with actual battle experience if they're not gonna utilize it? Their doing my boy Cole too dirty, he needs SOME good qualities. He's the easiest character to hate rn and that feels so lazy
@@nothanks71 it's insane to me how he was revered was one of the best knights by Jaime if this is what they decide to turn him into
Daemon on the cursed castle during the rain was the only good thing, the rest felt like season 5 of GOT, and having her facing the sea in that little boat with two guys to meet the mother of the king that could kill her or take her as prisoner is just ridiculous for me, "madness", like Tywin would say. EDITED
You do realize DragonStone isn’t far from KL right?? It wasn’t the ocean lmao
@@edd4131bro the problem is with her going and expecting anything positive to come out of it at all, not the method of travel 😅
@@edd4131 No LMAO, I thought was in the extreme south, idk why. Thank you, I found a great map to check out now, site "quartermaester". But my point still stands IMO. She founds out that had a very small chance to her be able to meet her "old friend", and she just takes it like that? Get in a small boat with two guys and face the ocean and all the way to the church and back? Man, for sure she would be sold by someone, somehow, no way she would be able to do it LMAO "cloak mode activated" LMAO, they do it all the time in the hole series, even in GOT, just sucks, again, IMO.
I actually was liking the whole episode up until the ending that shxt was stupid asf but the rest of the show I thought was good
I agree also the part where they mentioned dearon. The rest was just boring
Idk, i disagree a bit as it is a weak episode. Overarching to what they are trying to achieve that with hidnsight aside has been well done. Sure, she met in secrecy but you missed how she has KNOWN Alicent closely for many years and the letter she recieved from Alicent that she finally read more likely than not convinced her that Alicent DOES NOT want war and that others do. Sure, Rhanerya move was very risky, but in the context of what ive seen, it isnt too far-fetched. And while Rhanerya knows Alicent is not in control, she is focusing on HER BEST chance to stop war and that is through Alicent a fellow mother. Albeit, a bad choice.
Do you really think Alicent could or would do anything to stop the war? What was she gonna do say oh yeah my mistake and dethrone her own son who is now king? Rhaneyra still wants her other sons head for killing hers so do you think she would give up Aemond as well? Of course not, peace was not an option which should have been obvious to Rhaneyra.
@@mist7879it’s more about Rhaenyra knowing that she has no choice but war. She has the RIGHT to war
@@mist7879 did rhaenyra say she still wants her son's head?
They don't know each other that well. This is like having a friend that you stopped being friends with after high-school, and now you're in your late 30s with a huge family who are in danger because of hte other one's actions
@@edd4131having a right to war is crazy, Rhaenyra is a big hypocrite, she wants peace but still wants the throne. Like she can’t have it both ways lol
I get that the writers want to make Blacks seem like the side to root for, but I feel like we're approaching a point where its happening to the fault of the characters. I dont mind that Rhaenyra wants to go alone if they showed how she planned to get out of King's Landing if things went south. Just going there with no plans just paints her as a naive idiot and you dont really wanna root for a naive idiot.
It’s disappointing. Having both sides be grey and weighing the pros and cons of both is what makes it so interesting if they are trying to make people choose sides anyway. I’ve always been for the blacks, but having that choice essentially be made for me leaves me feeling so unfulfilled
this show was cooked the moment someone greenlit that rhaenys scene
It is impossible for peace. If Rhaenyra gives up her claim, she and Daemon's children are vulnerable. They would have no serious military forces, but they would always be potential claimants to the throne. Even if she does not press the claim herself, perhaps other nobles who are discontent with the Greens may decide to replace Aegon and use the Blacks as a banner to rally behind. Even if the Blacks receive a pardon, they may still be subject to covert assassinations. Otto literally demanded Daemon and Rhaenyra's children as hostages even if Rhaenyra relented her crown. The Blacks cannot trust the Greens, and vice versa.
War was inevitable the moment they both claimed the throne after King Viserys died. I am so sick of Rhaenyra, and the other foolish women trying to seek a peaceful compromise. There is no compromise. There wasn't one in the aftermath of Rhaenyra's death, and there certainly isn't one now with the deaths of the two princes. Daemon may be hotheaded, but he is absolutely correct that the war had already begun the moment they crowned Aegon as King.
The writers want to make the women seem peaceful and wise unlike the foolish warmongering men, but it is the women who have had the best chances to save the realm, and have failed repeatedly. Rhaenys had the entire Green Council (except Daeron) at her mercy, and she did absolutely nothing even though ALL HER GRANDCHILDREN are betrothed to the Blacks. Alicent had Rhaenyra in her grasps, and also did nothing. This is getting irritating.
I guess HBO didn't learn their lesson about changing source material for the sake of having epic girl boss moments.
The men are also the reason the war is happening. Because they could not accept a female heir and usurped the throne
@@Ghiscari Sadly that seems to be true. I was hoping that stupid scene in season one at Aegon's coronation with Rhaenys showing up with her dragon would be a one off, but seems like they are headed in that direction. They are setting up Alicent and Rhaenyra to be basically blameless for the war lol
Agree with all of that. Not to mention, the silly contrived writing where Alicent misunderstood the dying king. Of course, in the book Alicent puts Aegon on the throne for her own self interest/the interest of her family which is actually realistic and believable. The storline they went with in this show is very corny, and I cringed hard at the scene where Alcient came to the realization (Oh wait he meant Aegon the conqueror, not my son?!?!) Not looking good!
its not only that....Rhaenyra claims the throne because of the prophecy...what else can she do? Tell prophecy to Aegon?C'mon , let me laugh, Aegon or any of the greens would never take the prophecy seriously....and yes long night doesnt happen for sometime but Rhaenyra doesnt know that , all she knows is that none of the greens would care about the prophecy
the worst part of this episode for me was when
rahneys says "hotter heads have prevailed" and that otto wouldn't order assassination of rahneyra when in season 1 ep 9 thats exactly what otto asked the lord commander of kings guard to do lmao 😭
either rahneys is stupid af or the writters forgot
Except Otto wanted to send several knights to Dragonstone, Aegon only sent one lmao.
@@baron6588and that one assassin got so close to his target that if he had only 20 seconds more rhaenyra would’ve been slain, at least Aegon plan almost worked as “stupid” as it was🤷🏾♂️🤣
@@youngveteran6368 It was due to sheer luck that Erryk wasn’t defending Rhaenyra during that term, how he got so far was pretty lucky, and even then he failed. Sending one guy? To kill a Queen, that is stupid, there is no excuse for that.
@@baron6588 so what? One was pretending to be his brother and actually almost killed Rhaenyra. A bunch of knights (led by the one who raised Rhaenyra and was obviously on her side) would not kill Rhaenyra and her whole family, as Otto wanted. At best, they would kill Rhaenyra and maybe 2 more people - but they all still would get killed
@@yasmina3999
You do realize how silly it is for someone to infiltrate a castle to kill someone completely betting in the fact you have an identical twin, Arryk only got so far because Erryk wasn’t assigned to defend Rhaenyra at her quarters that point as it was Morbrand, or Erryk just accidentally stumbling upon him without Arryk noticing him. You forget that Arryk isn’t an assassin like a faceless man or a sell sword, he is a knight, trained to be a knight, knights are trained for both open battle and one-on-one confrontation, not intrigue, even Arryk says it himself, the Kingsguard weren’t made to dabble in deceitful schemes, just to defend the royal family or lead their armies. Also let’s do the math here, Arryk is one dude, Otto had 6 dudes, 6 is more than one, thus 5 dudes have a better chance. Also their not just Knights, their the damn Kingsguard, the highest Knights in the realm, Rhaenyra only had 2 with her, they could easily cut down her household guard and overwhelm her Kingsguard to get to her. You also forget that Otto had surprise on his side, the war had not yet started, so Dragonstone has not mobilized her defenses yet, so while the Kingsguard are not meant for stealth, they would have had a much easier time sneaking on Rhaenyra compared to just Arryk who did it when it was already wartime and when the castle’s defenses were already at high alert. Yes they would possibly all get killed, but Kingsguard have been sent on suicide missions in the past, so it’s not like they are unready to deal with orders like this. Yes, Otto was probably expecting Harrold to quit, so to root out any disloyalty among the ranks, that was Otto’s main goal, but if he didn’t, Otto’s plan would have succeeded as I have already explained why. Besides, you do realize Criston’s main goal in sending Ser Arryk to kill Rhaenyra wasn’t actually to kill Rhaenyra, but to get Ser Arryk killed. Criston knew full well how dumb the plan was, but he purely did it to absolve himself of guilt, and get favor with King Aegon, who was stupid enough to think the plan was brilliant, which explains Otto being livid lol. (I know it’s supposed to be only 7 Kingsguard and I basically mentioned 8 Kingsguard, but it seems they made an exception for the Cargyll twins by letting both of them serve one slot of the Kingsguard, as they are one soul two bodies after all)
Feels weird that she would go to kings landing now. Both sides have already raised armies and lost kids. Seems super late and dragged out
As much as I would love a 1-on-1 between Rhaenyra and Alicent who are my absolute fave characters and dynamic in the show, the way they executed that was *dumb as hell* Could they not have thought of a more realistic means of bringing them together? At this point, even Rhaenyra sending a distraction for Aemond then ambushing KL and literally plucking Alicent off a balcony would have made slightly more sense.
what doesnt make sense about how it happened?
Dude did you pay attention what Mysaria told Rhaenyra? That it was easier to kill Allicent rather than just meeting with her? She just did not wanted that
Yeah even the way Daemon orchestrated blood and cheese was more covert. He did it at night, and made sure not to actually go anywhere where he would be noticed. Meanwhile Rhaenyra goes to a highly populated church surrounded by guards who probably know what her face looks like in broad daylight with only one guy to defend her. If the writers wanted them to meet they could have figured out a better way of doing it.
People talking about teleporting arent listening to the dialogue. Gwayne states hes been on the road for three months, so it has likely been a good while since Viserys' death and minimum a couple of months since Lucerys was eaten.
I think Jace got back too quickly from the wall, but everything else makes sense in terms of expected timeframes for travel
It's only been a couple weeks since Viserys died, that much was said in the last episode iirc. Besides you can't just speak something into being, you have to show the passage of time. Dialogue isn't enough, other chess pieces on the board have to have moved aswell to give the illusion that the time has past.
I think everyone is forgetting that they are riding dragons! In GOT they didn’t have dragons
@@JosueHernandez-jg3uf I agree, but the distances are extremely vast in some cases. Kings Landing to Dragonstone is a day and a half of sailing, so it is at least a few hours of dragon riding. It would likely have taken Jace a couple of weeks to get to Winterfell after also treating with Lady Arryn, where he was likely hosted for a few days.
And that's saying nothing of the distance from The Eyrie to Winterfell, or Winterfell to the Wall (approx 600 miles on it's own), both of which would need pit stops over at other castles while Jace and Vermax rested.
@@JustAnotherAccount8 You actually don't have to show the passage of time, and that's how a 2-hour movie can cover more than 2 hours of a story. Seems like you may be confusing the common GoT "teleporting" criticism, which was to point out that humans were traversing at a speed that would have been impossible based on evidence we had from the show. IIIRC this happened in the Beyond the Wall ep and in s834. And maybe when Braun showed up at Winterfell but I can't rewatch that shit. IN this case, there is no reason to doubt that the appropriate amount of time has passed for R to make it to Kings Landing from Dragonstone by boat. Now - they could mess that up in the next episode, but at this moment, it's completely normal storytelling.
not true, its been a few weeks since the passing of Viserys
It's crazy to me that there is a different writer for each episode, I think there should be true consistency
This is normal.
Isn't that normal for most shows tho?
Major major S7 vibes with the ending scene. It was just plain stupid. It feels like it was shoehorned in to only get Alicent to understand Viserys was talking about Aegon I. And it all is for nothing because it doesn’t change Alicents mind
Maybe with all the meetings in S7? But the dialogue in that scene wasn't awful, just the acting was stilted because it was out of character. I would say like Jaime and Bronn S5 going to Dorne levels of contrived storytelling
This was exactly what I said during that scene. This wasn’t becuase it’s a good plot point for Intrigue and it makes no sense plot wise but they had to find a way to shoehorn in Alicent knowing about the song of ice and fire
I wonder if they realized how hated that plot point was after the reception to S1 so they put this in to get rid of it and then move forward. The only issue is it makes no fucking sense and now Alicent's character is a mess, and Rhaenyra's character is even more boring
I mean what can she do tell aegon there's been a mistake and that he should step down and let rhaenyra take the throne.
Changing Alicent's mind doesn't matter. Alicent has no power at this point - the episode really emphasizes that. If anything, the dawning horror both women have that neither of them can control the men around them (shades of war of the roses by the way - look up Marguerite of Anjou! surrounded by unstable, irresponsible nobles begging for war) is really interesting.
rhaenyra’s character has regressed, when she learned that her son was murdered she looked ready to go to war, when she said i want aemond i was like good ur pissed, daemon sent assassins to kill aemond to please her it ended badly, she knew that there was no going back this time, then the greens tried to play the same by sending arryk, was this not a final confirmation that a chance of a peace offer didn’t exist anymore? and then they did this… reunion, i am a firm believer this reunion should’ve been a confrontation after rhaenyra takes king’s landing, with the war having hardened both rhaenyra and alicent’s hearts, it would’ve been sm better omg; what were the writers thinking? i just don’t like it if i think too much abt it, let’s see how the war and show does from now on ig
YES AGREED 100000%!!!! They were gonna meet up again eventually so just wait until Rhaenyra takes King's Landing where they could air out their grievances then!
The meeting at the Sept was just too much for me to suspend my belief. The Harrenhall stuff was good and there were some funny bits with Aegon and his Kingsguard. Moreover, the dialogue this episode came off as very wooden. The actors tried their best, but I just couldn't get immersed in the setting. So far, I have only really liked episode two. The first episode I would rate a six and this one a five. I just hope this isn't a sign of things to come and the season is more episode two than episodes one and three.
THIS
NGL, whenever I saw Rhaenyra walk across King’s Landing with only one disguised “guard” I really told myself “this is not a well thought out plan at all, something has to go wrong”, but oh well, I guess she was lucky or something
Definitely one of the dumber things to happen in any episode of GoT or HoTD. A completely hare-brained scheme, worse than s7's wight kidnapping. It's so dumb, I now look at this show differently. The queen delivered herself to the enemy, a perfect way to end the war bloodlessly, and wasn't taken prisoner because... I don't know. I really don't.
Luck or rather plot armor. Rhaenyra is literally in the city where there are fights among the smallfolk and riots every other day (see the riots in season 2 of GOT). She could've been discovered by gold cloaks or being caught up in a brawl at any time with just one knight to protect her.
They want Rhaeynra to be Dany so badly that they are ruining everyone else
And they forgot that Rhaenrya is just cersei with dragons but less batshit insane
For me I never saw Rhaenyra as Cersei. Sure, they had a couple similarities but isn't close enough. I do however not like how dragged out Rhaenyra's plight for trying to resolve this conflict before the war starts. For me it makes Rhaenyra look weak and ignorant. Like she doesn't understand that people were murdered amd imprisoned for supporting her claim with Otto, Criston, and Larys murdering her supporters in the capital and crownlands, and Alicent becoming an obsolete political figure and somehow Rhaenyra doesn't understand or think about that.
@@Argos-xb8ek bro ikr like give me some ambition some anger and don't make it all about "men want war and women want to knit sweaters for each other" Is that too much to ask? Blood and cheese was the point where no hope of reconciliation should have left. Idk wtf writers are doing
@@Argos-xb8ek it feels like the writers are reluctant to have her do anything “bad” or even morally grey on her own, to the point of straight up denying reality
They are trying too hard to make her look as good as possible
Gotta disagree with you GreatClips Delight. Episode had me on the edge of my seat the whole hour
For what payoff though?
A tv show doesn't need payoff every episode
Who the fuck is GreatClips Delight lmao. That's not even a typo, you got the entire name wrong lol.
@@TheForkOnTheLeftist Well all the Green Council stuff and the scenes with Cole and Baela and the council meeting with Rhaenyra about it is building up to Rook's Rest in episode 4.
I thought it felt like a classic GOT episode. Focusing on characters and politics, instead of spectacle. It’s the calm before the storm even.
I think where this episode shines was Daemon confronting the supernatural forces that he so despises and in Harrenhal no less. An him facing his past mistakes in the form of Young Rhaenyra as well as seeing her sow the head of Young Jaehaerys you can see the look in his eyes and you know he regrets it.
Alys just saying "you will die here" and leaving is personally my favourite part. Very strong introduction.
A good episode but please STOP REMINDING ME about the prophecy of The Song of Ice and Fire.
😂, how everything happens, it feels pointless
Eh, more of like a, oh shit moment, not a reminder.
It's so pointless i honestly don't understand why they even bothered to include it in the first place😅
@@ikram-258 Maybe they will make a sequel that will fix GOTs ending so the prophecy won't be so pointless, who knows
This is what happens to good writing when you force your own politics into it. You sacrifice common sense to promote THE MESSAGE. In this case The Message is "men violent and bad. Women peaceful and good". If this isn't a one off mistake this series viewership may fall off a cliff before season 2 even ends. The whole episode was full of modern feminist cringe. It wasn't limited to this scene alone.
no it wasn't, screw off
Exactly. They have more focus on male nudity rather than logic. Imagine being at war and anyone can sneak into each other's territories without having noticed, that too multiple times. And King and prince are casually spending their time in brothels where they could be slashed by anyone. Everything is so casual about this show.
@@elcapitan8769 Your complaint is stupid
@@voluntarism335 stupid to you. I don't care what you think. FO
@@voluntarism335 I don't care about your opinion.
Rhaenyra in KL was just objectively a bad scene, the rest was pretty decent. I really enjoyed Daemon in harrenhal especially
I missed Otto in this episode 😢
I think I have to face the facts, I gave credit to this series because I love the Westeros universe so much. In reality this season 2 makes me realize that this series is very average.
At least someone is objective. People are starving for season 1-4 writing quality so they'll praise every non mistake this show makes. In all honesty, there have been multiple dud nonsensical episodes and plot contrivances already. Some of it is season 7-8 level
@@TheForkOnTheLeftist Season 8 I don't think any season of any series will ever reach this level again. But season 7 maybe indeed. This pointless desperate discussion between Rhaenyra and Alicent really made me think about the expedition beyond the Wall to bring a White Walker back to Cersei a little less ridiculous.
I was thinking the same thing, convincing Alicent is pointless as she has no power it’s Aegon on the throne. Rhaenrya was offering herself on a silver platter
This show is trying too hard to make Alicent and Rheanyra-and every other female character, beacons of wisdom and virtue while the men run around like blood thirsty idiots
I thought this was a pretty good episode, actually. And I don't agree with all the suggested changes mentioned in the video. For one, if Rhaenyra were to propose an official meeting outside the city with dragons present, it would be King Aegon's decision, and he would never allow Rhaenyra to show up with a bunch of dragons right outside the city unopposed. Alternatively, he would plan an ambush.
Yes! Aegon is distraught over his son, and can’t control his impulses. Which is why this would never work.
@@edd4131 It's also why the scene doesn't make any sense. How is Alcient supposed to stop the war when she has no power to do so? There's no way Aegon would listen to that advice, even if Alicent was somehow convinced
@@David-sl6xf I'm pretty sure the whole point of that scene is to show that it was a futile effort and Rhaenyra is grasping at straws at this point to prevent the inevitable. It also was a device to show that going forward, Alicent is aware of the illegitimacy of her son's rule and how that will impact the decisions she makes in the future. It's not supposed to be a rational, wise bit of negotiation. It's a girl appealing to her childhood best friend in the face of heightening war.
Also they have scorpions in King's Landing. A discussion outside the Walls of KL would be as stupid and risky as when Daenerys brought Drogon to KL on 8x04.
@@David-sl6xf But Rhaenyra *does not know that*
From Alicent's letters and from 1x10, Rhaenyra has plenty reasons to believe that Alicent has an active role among her family.
Rhaenyra teleporting to kings landing while a supposed army marches on Harrenhal is the kind of bad mix of poor character decision making / writing I really rather they didn't bring over from season 7-8 of GoT. You'd think at the very least Rhaenyra would be held captive for such a stunt, I miss the old GoT where really bad decisions get punished.
She didn't really teleport though? She took a boat and wore a disguise. I think you overestimate people's ability to recognize a person they've never met nor seen before.
I'm sure she could just fly cyrax nearby and change from there.
Captive? Catching her literally ends the war lol it's essentially checkmate
@@rollsafterdark2171 She couldn't have enough time to stop Cole and his forces peacefully because he's closer to Harrenhal than she is to King's landing, and they would have to send a message and that would take time too. It's a plan requiring teleporting basically... He should already be at Harrenhal by the time she is half way to King's landing.
@@TheForkOnTheLeftist Not quite with Daemon out and about, he'd take command and carry on in her stead.
4:30 "Technically not as bad as Season 7" is a good way to describe this episode.
Rhaenyra was mostly listening to Rhaenys, whoes only council has been to wait, and I feel it has been detrimental. Rhaenys claims that Otto wouldn’t have approved the attempt to Rhaenyra’s life, when we all know that was his actual first command right after Viserys’ death, and his issue was that Sir Aryk was sent alone. So Rhaenys is way off in her opinion of Otto, which I found interesting because when she brought the news of the death of Viserys, she told Rhaenyra then, that the greens were coming for her and her kids. The Greens were never loving kins of Rhaenyra that all of the sudden turned on her. Their animosity has existed from day one and treating them as good faith actors is a mistake. I am not saying that Rhaenyra needs to act overly irrational, like Aegon, but she is hesitant and it will cost her. Rhaenys’ advice to speak to Alicent is dumb, when she herself failed at convincing her right when everything was happening. Rhaenys claims the younger tempers are in charge and that Alicent possibly only permits things because they are out of her control, yet tells Rhaenyra the way to achieve peace is to reach out to Alicent? The scene was fantastic, but to get it we were given very dumb rationals
Thank you. People keept pretending that Rhaenys is some wise counselor and the voice of reason, but in reality the only thing she's doing is using Rhaenyra as a way to be queen vicariously and pretending she is the second coming of Jaehaerys I. Her "advice" has literally been to completely ignore the sensible strategies that her war council were proposing Rhaenyra and instead stall and stall and do nothing at all while the greens are already moving armies. It's literally Rgaenys' fault that Rhaenyra still holds to the mindset that "war is avoidable" when the reality is that war is already here and the only one doing something about it is Daemon.
"He changed his mind." 😅 The righting of that line was painful, xdd
Cant wait for Jace to sneak into kings landing to talk to Aemond
Spoiler:
Maybe the Aegon/Aemond stuff is gonna lead to Aemond hesitating ever so slightly at Rook's Rest and that's how Aegon gets messed up before Aemond takes out Rhaenys?
yep
The last time Rhaenyra met Alicent was before her father died. At that time, Alicent and Otto basically ruled King's landing. It makes sense for her to still assume that now. Why doesn't Alicent call the guards? Two reasons- one, is just the simple threat of death. Rhaenyra would die, but she would take Alicent with her. And two, I think this is point of the scene, Alicent realizes that she's been wrong about Viserys's wish, and is very embarrassed that she was in the wrong. At the point, she probably couldn't make the decision to kill her once friend who was her husband's chosen heir.
I agree the plan was reckless and sloppy, but Imo not any more than Blood and Cheese, Erryk and Arryk. I think the issue is that you have three episodes with the same consequence free infiltration.
This, your take at the end is perfect. Too many infiltrators.
Thank you for your analysis. I agree 100% with all you said. Very underwhelming, anticlimatic and disappointing episode. I'm afraid the writers are taking the direction of "inclusive writing" that failed more or less everywhere it has been tried. They are making Rhaenyra look only weaker and undecided by insisting on her will to avoid bloodshed. Their intent I'm sure is to show how morally superior she is compared to the ugly and stupid men, but the result isn't there. From the point the actress changed the core of her character changed too shifting from strong, reckless and strong willed to a weak confused passive woman.
Thanks for not being a sucker for this show, don't get me wrong, I enjoy HOTD but I don't think it's some kind of masterpiece like some people want to pretend that it is.
I rlly want it to be a masterpiece 😭 but it’s getting harder to pretend
I felt they didn’t need to moon the entire audience with Aemond being nude, like he’s already an alpha male, you don’t need to prove that even more!😅
"Rhaenyra was very considering and hesitant to carry out any plan," is just straight up wrong. She is hesitant to carry out plans that involves DRAGONS.
Indeed, when we see Aemond, Daemon and Aegon so eager to just straight up hop on dragons and burn their enemies. Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, in some way Alicent - they seem to understand that if they fight each other with dragons used like a toy - it will end badly for everyone. But at this point - everything leads to war, as we see Blackwoods and Brackens use Green vs Black to just fight off their thousand year squabble.
Also I find it really funny and naive that some people think that if Alicent catched Rhaenyra in the Sept that war would be avoided. I mean, not with Daemon who will easily use their children or even his claim to fight with Aegon. It would just take away someone (Rhaenyra) who as a Queen stops her supporters a bit, but even then Daemon just got rough and is in Harrenhall, probably with his own plans.
I stronglly disagree with that scenes the showrunners add are only bad. Take for example throne room scene where Daemon beheades Vaemond Vearyon, its not like that ind the book and its probably the best scene int the whole show.
I feel Rhynearas motivation for meeting with Alicent makes sense. She knows she needs to act soon in the upcoming war, but she also feels a duty to do everything in her power to prevent it. It was hasty and would never have worked, but it was also her final option before fully committing to the war.
I hated the on the nose dialogue. The opening scene is so cringy
bro ppl call anything cringy now days😂
@@jrmusic06 like your mom
the could bing back millie as much as the f*cking like. 7 hells, they could put her to play every single character and i will have no problem!
The distance between dragon stone and King's landing is too short, the way people travel back and forth so easily
Flying on Dragons, takes 1 hour
It's literally right across the black water
You have no idea how much time passed when the scene changed.
I fell like her hasty decision to go to kings landing made sense, her whole counsel was telling her to make a move now, except Rhaenys who basically told her to speak to Alicent before starting the war because Rhaenyra and Alicent having a convo about the whole situation could put an end to it, which Rhaenyra seemingly got confirmed when she read Alicents letter. So she didn't have time to go over the plan all that much, because her counsel was growing impatient and wanted action or they probably would have left.
It really has become a drama about how men and women feel, act, and behave differently. Rhaenys tells Rhaenyra to try and talk with Alicent face to face. Rhaenyra, with the help of Mysera, moves ahead to do just that, without her council being advised, because Rhaenyra knew that the men on that council would not agree to her plan. So, she meets with Alicent who is, to some extent, receiving of Rhaenyra, but who ultimately retreats to the damsel in distress excuse of "I don't know how to stop all the men who are now thirsting for war."
The whole drama of House of Dragons ... is really about what happens when a society consistently resists the counsel of its women, ... and proceeds along patriarchal lines. Westeros had a chance to advance societally under Rhaenys, but they wouldn't have it, now they are repeating the same with Rhaenyra, and it will ultimately end with the fall of great houses.
@@TheAegis1000 Beautifully said!!
The main problem is the Rheanyra/team black bias being kicked into overdrive. Its unbearible at this point.
Reminder in both Fire and Blood and the World of Ice and fire Rhaenyra and alicent have age gap, where never friends, and it was depicted as much more of a Wicked Stepmother usurping her step daughters claim.
In fact the books are more sympathetic to Aegon II than Alicent, having him not want the throne and bein forced into it and only truly being all in for the conflict after Blood and Cheese and the death of his son.
But because it's a show made in the 2020s, the men have to be portrayed as dumb,bloodthirsty warmongers to fit modern narratives
I was screaming at my TV when they started talking about going incognito into Kings Landing. That was so stupid, so similar to ideas in S7, S8 of GoT. It seems like there are no stakes, Daemon gets into Kings Landing no problem, Arryk gets into Dragon Stone no problem, Rhaenyra gets into AND out of Kings Landing no problem. The whole "badass ninja women" is so stupid - from the start she is more calculating, strategic. It's just all making me so mad... too close to GoT ideas.
“Arryk gets to dragon stone no problem”
He was immediately discovered which led to him and his brother killing each other…
@@Jdjdjdujakzgsha true true... it was more a criticism of the trope "let's solve it by sneaking somewhere in secret" .... feels like they're using this too much for a show which is more about grand strategy, politics and diplomacy
This is the first time I disagree with the majority of the video
Same. While I don't think the Rhaenyra and Allicent scene was necessary, it was set up well enough to be believable. Plus, the scene itself was great.
On the other hand, I didn't care much for the scene of Daemon entering Harrenhall. I realise the anti climax was intentional, but it dragged on a bit too long for that. All the other Harrenhall scenes were great though. I don't see how Milly Alcock only having a few lines is a bad thing, she's literally a hallucination.
I don't get how people can remotely like the last scene.
If the rest of the season is like this last episode, gods help me, we're doomed.
@@Winter-Alpha-OmegaI just won't watch lol let hbo waste their money
@@jada9401 I'll keep watching, because episodes 1 and 2 were pretty great.
I just hope whoever made or directed this episode gets canned.
In the books Alicent is described as selfish and ruthless and so is Rheanyera.
I mean, the book is also pretty much chronicle about what happened written by maester after the events. So kind of hard to argue who was Alicent or Rhaenyra.
It's like with Maegor the Cruel - some things might be bias, becouse he was hardcore against Faith and also didn't trust Maesters - look at historical person like Caligula. He is described as mad, but one who wrote about him was closer to people bullied by Caligula, so it can be propaganda.
So if you have a POV or omnipresent and all knowing narrator in books about Dance of Dragons - then I would doubt that reader knew Alicent and Rhaenyra that well.
Rhaenyra barely knows adult Aegon so there's no way she would know Alicent has no control over him.
100% agree. This episode is just average. I REALLY hope they drop the "The women can do no wrong, it's the men that are the irrational war hungry people" and also the "Blacks vs. Greens, all must choose" storytelling because it's not at all what the source material is about. Rhaenyra is just as morally grey as the rest of them in the book, and yet every morally grey decision in the books has been taken away from her and given to the men around her.
They're making it way too "good vs. evil" for my taste, which sucks because the story in the book is sooooo much more compelling. It's not about factionalism or routing for one side over the other; it's about the human heart in conflict with itself and also about the tragedy of a family ripping itself apart (The whole damn point of Erryk vs. Arryk, which was lost in the show)
This was my favorite episode actually. Apart from the Rhaenyra going to Kingslanding bit (which they still handled better than I was expecting and I wasn't expecting much), I loved the rest. Common folks, random characters giving you pieces of information, foreshadows.
Honestly, I completely agree with the negatives mentioned. The Targaryen bastard admitting to being Viserys' half-brother felt so stupid and unreasonable, just like Rhaenyra's logic for getting to the surprise meeting with Alicent.
When I see Rhaenyra decided try to talk with Alicent even wearing that Nun disguise, I got a PTSD for Season 8 of Game of Thrones again
I bet u, this seasons is just about the turmoil on each factions. How they manage not to do war, mistake on each sides, want to war but not to 🤷♂️. we wont have a great battle between dragons on this season. Season 3 were we see it.
Yeah I agree that there better be a point to that long brothel scene and showing Aegon teasing Aemond because if not it’ll go down as probably the dumbest scene in the show for me. It felt like something out of The Boys.
So? The boys is great
The whole point was to show Rhaenyra exhausting all other options before all out war because, as she has also stated, it could (and eventually would) bring their house to extinction. Along with the fact that she wasn't certain if Viserys really did change his mind at the end and replaced her as heir which was also a factor in her being reluctant to go to war.
RIP HotD, was fun while it lasted.
Yeah, I'm getting that feeling too. Yeesh.
They’re trying to make this drag out so long to make it multiple seasons. There’s been so much filler and if I have to see rhaenys RBF one more time I’m going to lose it. She just sits there looking pissed and talks about how dumb men are all the time.
Well, I got news for you 😂😂😂😂😂
Ngl I think the first season may have had some extremely jarring time jumps that hurt the overall pacing BUT this has felt like season 7-8 of GOT levels of uneven pacing and useless scenes of dialogue. Each ep I’ve been bored and then in the last third I’m engaged.
Otto really emphasized that he is the Tywin of HotD. Take him out of the story and the quality just drops off a cliff. The power of Game of Thrones was never its flashy action scenes, it was always the dialogue. When that fell away the show crashed, and the same can already be felt in HotD. They're rushing the politics and the story to get to the big and grand dragon battles, which in a way is understandable, but it makes you wonder if they should've either taken it far slower or started further ahead in the timeline, instead of taking a path down the middle and kinda failing on both sides.
7:45 - I want to point out that this is not true. Alicent getting Rhaenyra here would not necessarily end the war. It COULD but it wouldn't necessarily.
If Rhaenyra is just killed, then Jacerys would be king or Daemon would claim the throne himself or Jacerys would become king on paper and Daemon would be the de facto king or Daemon would put one of his own sons from Rhaenyra on the throne. But none of these circumstances gets rid of the war, it'd just become a war lead entirely by Daemon. Which is probably worse for the Greens. Though maybe beneficial in that MAYBE they could get some houses to switch sides in that case. Then again, since Daemon is male, maybe some Green houses would be willing to switch to him.
Point being that killing Rhaenyra does not necessarily end the war, it most likely just changes the war.
This, in my opinion, is part of why Aegon and Criston's plan was stupid. Not only because it was put together pretty clumsily, but because the plan's outcome doesn't even end the war. Only killing Rhaenyra, Daemon and all of her children would end the war. Just killing Rhaenyra likely does not.
Capturing Rhaenyra is more complicated. She would still be queen to the Blacks, technically, however Daemon would probably take control of their war efforts in this case. And it seems very unlikely to me that Daemon would be willing to negotiate just for Rhaenyra's life. Maybe Rhaenyra would be willing to abdicate and acknowledge Aegon at the threat of death but... idk, personally I don't think so.
So, I actually think that either killing or capturing Rhaenyra would have Daemon seize power of the Blacks as the most likely outcome, not the end of the war.
Btw, for the record, I also thought it was kind of contrived that Rhaenyra would put herself at such risk by going into King's Landing just to talk to Alicent. I just disagree with the idea that Alicent had a genuine chance to end the war here. I don't think she did at all. She just had a chance to put Daemon in charge of the Blacks.
I'm really struggling with the season as a whole. There's barely a single character with any redeeming features. My reading of Daemon wasn't a sulky tosser yet this is what we're getting. Think the younger cast members are doing a lot of good work but, well. Yeah.
Some moments in HOTD really give off S5-8 of GOT vibes: Raenys escaping the dragonpit, Criston killing Joffery at a wedding, Laenor and Daemyra staging his death, Daeron's existence being ignored up until S2ep2, Alisent mishearing Viserys' words on his deathbed and now this Scooby Doo sneaking into KL in disguise BS 😂 I pray to Gods, old and new, that Ryan Condal and current team of writers stay away from future ASOIAF projects
Definitely! I still think it's a great show but I'm worried for some of the important future scenes. Hopefully they won't sacrifice cohesion and character's sensibility for shock and fan service moments.
Too late. Ryan Condal is one of the producers of Dunc and Egg😔
@@Targussysussy but he wont be a showrunner (probably too busy with HOTD) nor will he direct a single episode
Honestly i know nothing of the books and my favorite dynamic in the show is Alicent and Rhaenyra, so I’ve been dying for them to have a 1 on 1. However, i was prepared to wait one or two seasons because the tension would’ve been insane. Having them meet up in this way was disappointing since it seemed like it happened way too recklessly. And yes, Rhaenys mentioned to Rhaenyra that she should speak with Alicent in the beginning of the episode so there was a set up, but it still felt rushed and dumb.
Also idk why they aren’t giving Jace any lines. His appearance in Winterfell was way too brief, nothing of substance was said in his dialogue over there and ever since he came back to Dragonstone he hasn’t gotten a word in.
3 episodes and 3 infiltrations lmao who the hell are guarding the gates on this show? Stevie Wonder
This show is amazing. Feel free to find issues though lol
Finally someone called it what it was.
This episode only makes Rhemyra look dumb and incompetent. I understand that 'point of no return' and some character moments are essential to show. But, this was just GOT season 7 level stuff.
This ep was whiplash from ep 2...
The problem w/ this one is how Rhaenyra was portrayed
If the writers wanted Rhaenyra to be seen as a conciliator, she instead came across as an idiot and incompetent leader
Why would Alicent think Killing Rhanyeera would end the war? It would just put Jeice in power. Maybe kidnapping her would work though
the difference between episode 2 and 3 is incredible, I kinda wish the writter of the 2.2 was the only one
My biggest problem is so little happened. I was really hoping the majority of this episode aside from Daemon in Harrenhal would be build up to Rook's Rest in episode 4. All the stuff with the Green Council and Cole was good at moving this forward, but everything else, especially the slow-ass shit with Rhaena which should have taken less then half the time it did, was pretty pointless. I was hoping this episode would end shortly before Rook's Rest and we'd have almost an entire episode for what is one of the most epic battles in the Dance of Dragons. I was hoping it would be like the Blackwater episode or The Watchers on the Wall, but after seeing where this episode left off, and how much other random shit is going on in the episode 4 teaser, it seems like only a small portion of the episode will be the battle, which is really sad and a huge wasted opportunity. So much of episode 3 could have been shortened, I honestly think most of the Rhaena stuff should have been cut or at least condensed, giving more room for build up, so that Rook's Rest would have this huge payoff. But there's been so little build up for Rook's Rest that I can't imagine the payoff having as big an impact as it should. But I'm still hopeful for some epic visuals and dragon battles next week.
Sometimes we have to accept that characters just as humans will not always act smart or rational
Did anyone else find the cut from the opening dialogue scene to the wide shot of the battlefield jarring? I feel like we should have seen the first real battle of this war, especially given how often it was brought up later in the episode. Not a deal breaker, just a missed opportunity imo.
nah i undertand, the showrunners want the "first" battle in the show be with people that we actualy know like the one the next ep