In case you guys aren't fully aware of how PS4 pad already breaks all the arcade stick rules, here's a quick video showing how the flood gates have been burst open for years: th-cam.com/video/RFFu351TE60/w-d-xo.html
Couldnt they update modern games to not allow the joystick and dpad to be used for motion on pad (choose one or the other) then ban hitbox to avoid all socd issues?
@@nubesock5231 No because with a PS5 edge pad you can still map directions to the back of it. And with sony owning evo they are not going to ban thier official controllers
HitBoxes were designed to be ergonomic and efficient by nature. You are typing commands VS levering them. Typing being ergonomically advantageous is not even a discussion. I typed this out... the action of typing hasn't changed in nearly 500 years because it's so efficient. Getting used to it for this function and retraining our brain is the issue, it's on the user. The fact Hitboxes were a nothing burger and now the people that have spent time with them, the people that were T8'ing anyway and are still T8'ing with Hitboxes really tells you one thing. There was a reason to change and it was advantageous - otherwise why take the time, they would have hit T8 anyway. Now... IF it was just because sticks are a bitch for causing arthritis - sure. But lets be real. Nobody goes through all that effort just to try stop something that's going to happen anyway, especially not pro's. There's always an endgame play. HitBox in theory, by design and by nature is faster and more accurate. Thems facts. They appear to be sort of a "Win more" device. If you were going to win, that win just became more certain because of consistency with a more accurate tool. Which on it's own isn't bad, but if "Use a box or you're doing it wrong" becomes a thing... Well that would be beyond shit. Should it be banned if that happens? Too early to say anything really.
I learned the game on a hitbox style controller. I tried stick and I couldn't wrap my head (or hand coordination) around it. I tried a pad and my thumbs can't keep up with the motion inputs. The hitbox just resonated with me. If it weren't for hitbox controllers, I wouldn't be playing SF or any fighting game.
Same here. Movement on hitbox actually feels much more intuitive for me since jump is assigned to a button press like most games (or like a spacebar if you're play an FPS on m&kb) rather than up. There is a Round1 near me with Japanese SFV cabs and stick feels so floppy and imprecise for me.
Same here. I come from platformers and a ton of Brawlhalla, and I had a lot of fun jumping into Tekken, thinking that I'd have some fun if I tried it with a stick. I bought one and had a CRAZY adjustment period and still suck as consistently inputting directions while feeling incredibly sluggish. I regret my purchase but I'm glad I got the experience
Im similar in that i find i simple inputs more difficult with my thumbs, and the precision just isnt there. Button style controls just feel way more accessible to me
Not enough people are mentioning keyboards (which are essentially hitboxes) tbh. PC has become much bigger, with some major fighting games like Tekken and GG having bigger playerbases on there. I can guarantee you that way more people are playing fighting games on keyboard nowadays than they do on stick, and banning that would be pretty similar to banning pads back when consoles took over arcades. What I agree with is that the game should be the one to decide what happens when you press 2 opposite inputs simultaneously. In Tekken for example, holding back and forward results in neutral by default.
To me using a keyboard for fighting games is super uncomfortable. Buttons are too small and close together and my wrist starts aching after 5 mins of using the movement inputs
@@Tampontimothy rebind them to be wider apart then, I've seen some folks do QEG, or 2EF. Basically rest your hands comfortably on your keyboard the way people lay their hands on a hitbox, and see where your fingers rest and bind em to those.
I've played fighting games on the side for years on keyboard- one thing I used to do was pull a few keycaps around the buttons I use mainly for extended sessions, so there are no buttons nearby to get in the way, and you can map your buttons to spread out in the appropriate ways for you.
Hitbox resonates very well with a whole generation who's been playing FGs on PC with bare minimum equipment (keyboard). It's unthinkable to Japanese or westerners because they have a strong arcade culture, but there are places like East/Southeast Asia and South Korea, where Internet cafes and PC bangs are more common alternatives to game in. Disregarding hitbox/keyboard also means cutting off these parts of the world and their people out of the FGC. In GGStrive, people from SEA and SKorea having to find games in Japan server is all too common, because their local scene is already tiny.
Thank you for pointing out that the Hitbox's out of box SOCD resolution is neutral input. To many people think you can actually press left/right at the same time, and send that input to the game. You can't without modding your firmware.
Motion inputs are definitely more intuitive on stick, but hit box provides much better feedback. On stick, I often find myself wondering how I messed up a particular input because I can't feel where each switch inside the stick activates/deactivates, where as on hit box I can usually feel what I'm doing wrong because I can see and feel my fingers as they press the buttons.
I remember when I was much younger around 2015 when I first got into fighting games I played skullgirls on my laptop keyboard I ended up having issues going to my friends houses to play because I never used pad. so I ended up purchasing a stick due to me asking another friend who understood way more about fighting games than I did whether I should get a hitbox or a stick since I thought keyboard muscle memory would apply much more easily to hitbox, and they told me to go for a stick so I did. It sucked, I could barely do anything and regretted my purchase for so long, but eventually got used to it. Even then I found that stick still feels unnatural to me but it felt better than pad. Years later I found out that the friend just hated hitbox part of the whole "cheatbox" crowd. I ended up trying out keyboard again and it felt fine still, so I went and purchased a hitbox and while some things were much harder due to the experience on stick I garnered over the years, tons of the inputs I was used to on keyboard were still there and it felt overall better for me to play. It only makes me hate the whole "cheatbox" angle because it's a device that can genuinely feel better for some people and for the people like me who were used to keyboard, not having a good option to play locally on a console would be kinda shitty. Hitbox just makes sense, doing Ranbu's in kof feels odd but getting clean dragon punches feels a lot better and I'm very willing to take that trade. Hell I find quarter circles a lot easier on it too, on stick I'd end up doing half circles when I wanted a quarter circle because It just wasn't my thing. The idea that it's an illegitimate way to play the game and wanting it banned is just goofy, and gatekeeping for the individuals who genuinely just like it, it's also just corny as hell.
You have to take the good and the bad. If it feels good for you, play with it. But accept that people will call it a cheat box because it does things impossible to do on other control scheme.
I hope they never ban Hitbox cuz it’s a perfect OS when losing, I’ll never have to own up to my own shortcomings as long as I can go “GGs cheatbox user”
I love my arcade stick. That said, people need to stop this nonsense. Every single time anything other than an arcade stick comes about, people want to call it “cheating.”
Same here. I own both a stick and a hitbox. The hitbox sure has advantage at certain inputs like dashing, charging or high jumping, but then it's a lot harder to do circle inputs consistently, whereas on the stick such inputs are very intuitive, plus it's always fun to play with the joystick. In the end every controller has pros and cons, and they should all be considered fair.
@@GeminionRay harder doesn't make it acceptable. It's not about what is harder or easier, it's about what's possible. That shortcut input he did on the hit box, is not possible on other devices.
@@jetsettech8804 hitbox is not cheating, it has advantages and a lot disadvantages, and this socd cleaner only makes things more uncomfortable, more conflicting inputs
@@willbm6836 the advantages outweigh the disadvantage of it being difficult. Difficulty means nothing to world class players. Being able to throw a sonic boom while keeping the charge for another? Literally not possible
@@jetsettech8804 if hitbox were better everyone would be on hitbox, in sfv pad is the easiest tool. socd cleaner is stupid ,that just makes things more uncomfortable,which is easily noticeable in older games, the inputs conflict all the time, if you hold down two buttons at the same time, the command does not come out, and this happens accidentally all the time. you never have played on keyboard or hitbox, because if you had you would know
As a keyboard player, I agree that letting the software decide in cases of SOCD should be the solution. It's crazy to me that the CPT rules differ from the game's own engine. I'm a little upset knowing that I could be doing the same inputs as a hitbox player on my keyboard and getting different inputs in game.
That is the part that makes no sense to me. They made the game, they made the CPT rules, what possessed them to work completely at odds with each other.
Thing is the hardware limitations per CPT rules, while they help in some ways, hinder in others. I'm a former keyboard player (who uses stick now) and find hitbox really difficult because of that.
I'd actually argue that you should let the hardware use any SOCD method it wants. Seems a lot more interesting for players and infinitely easier to manage for tournament organizers
It's because the CPT ruling was an emotional response to Daigo's first leverless controller. That controller had "second input" style socd cleaning. It was a foolish ruling based on ignorance instead of logically analyzing what the controller was capable of. Tldr: Daigo's first leverless controller looked weird so people freaked. So, Capcom rushed an emotional ruling and used "L+R must = neutral" to justify it.
Brian is incorrect about the CPT rules. They say "When both Right and Left directional keys are input at the same time, a controller must either maintain both of the inputs or abandon both." Maintain both = what keyboard does = let game decide = forward
As someone who made the change to a leverless controller a couple of months ago, the "posture" of playing on stickless is very important, but if you get it correct it is tremendously less impact on your wrists and forearms. Most of the older folks I know in the FG scene have all gone to stickless for ergonomics.
I'm about to make the transition to leverless, but I'm using keyboard to test it out before making the jump. I get wrist pain and can feel strain not even 10 mins in. What's optimal posture like?
@@Smur95 To some extent it depends on what your arm/wrist health is. Hitbox company insists the best method is to hover your hands like playing piano, but I have nerve damage in my neck/shoulder so I rest my hands with a keyboard wrist rest, and my elbows bowed outwards. Do regular stretches too!
@@barbedwings Funny you mention that because I was thinking about a snackbox build where I attach the snackbox and a palm wrest to a cutting board lol. Sounds like it should work
I have problems with my hand health and as far as my particular condition goes, hitbox/keyboards are by far the most damaging type of devices to my health.
a guile lever player is severely disadvantaged against a guile hitbox player. hitbox can start charging new boom or flash kick 3+ frames faster than what is possible on a lever, also hit box can skip neutral completely when doing special or critical art. eg lever down, neutral, up kick hitbox down up kick. hitbox players should only play other hitbox players. I just bought a sf5 stick and I'm pissed I have to buy a hitbox just to be able to compete with hitbox users, really forced to. I want to buy a snackbox control (wish I didn't have to).
The arguments I can think as to why the SOCD at hardware level works the way it does right now are: 1. Older games don't handle pressing Left + Right at the same time very well (Blocking both ways in vanilla MVC3), so the hardware makes it always be Neutral to have consistency on any game you play. 2. In games where you can't skip any cardinal directions to do Half-Circle motions (Mainly older titles like, Super Turbo, Guilty Gear +R, etc.), it is extremely hard to get the whole motion to register, specially if you want to do it fast. In that case, since L+R = N, you can roll your finger and press L+D+R to get a forced Down input. It helps A LOT with consistency in those games. 3. For Down + Up = Up - It also helps A LOT in games where you need to super jump and do fast inputs (Any Marvel game that has triangle jumping). Since hitbox is also for people who have some sort of physical issues with their hand, wrists, etc. Making things that are inherently difficult on this type of device but are free on any other, seems like a good idea to me. Remember that not every game has charge characters or Flashkick motions and people still use hitbox in those games.
Okay let's stop all future progress because old games can't handle a different controller. Or we can just make it harder for.. reasons? It's just a keyboard with less buttons
It's interesting mentioning the intuitiveness of trying to use a hitbox for the first time and I totally agree, I had to basically memorize the order in which my fingers move up and down and which buttons to press in that sequence which was hard af for me at first, eventually you build those neurons but for complex motions and entire combos, it's a lot of work to wrap your head around it
I think it's actually pretty easy to draw a line here and I think that line ought to be drawn at adding extra ways to input the same thing strictly for the purpose of removing execution barriers, such as with the infamous hitbox crossup stick. You want to use buttons instead of a stick? Cool. Keys or even a full keyboard? Go for it. But when you're adding an *extra* down button above your usual right hand buttons exclusively for the purpose of something like completely nullifying the execution of performing electrics in Tekken, then you've gone too far. The usual argument here is to compare it to a pad which has both an analog stick & a d-pad, but the difference is that it's highly impractical to use both those things on a pad, and it's not designed for you to do so. Whereas with the crossup, the entire point of the design is to design the controller in a way that allows you to completely circumvent intentional execution difficulty.
most extra buttons are used as just extra buttons for shortcuts that are already in the game, like fd in ggst being a button or something, and most people use just an average hitbox, (and styles with both are usually just for specific games) and that’s pretty much why no one cared about the Cross|Up potentially getting banned and i’m also pretty sure it has socd cleaning, and would technically be more legal than pad.
Another thing about hitbox support is that hitbox support is keyboard support, and keyboard support makes fighting games accessible to a lot of people, so they can just pick up a game without having to buy an expensive controller to play it.
The funny thing is that using Hitbox is a lot like driving Standard Transmission. It's easy, unless you EVER think about what you're doing. As soon as you stop to think about the inputs again, you're done.
Nobody should be complaining especially since BrolyLegs is able to compete at the level he is at. It's what you're comfortable with and your skill at the game.
Man, this is almost like if there was a competitive scene with rhythm games, the ones that use dance mats and taiko drum controllers would ban other people from using keyboards and gamepads. After writing that, having all those 4 options in different leagues does make an amount of sense, so that was a bad comparison. But reminds me of how the speedrunning scene does often list what hardware and software version the runner was using. Things like how the PC and console versions can be very different, sometimes different enough to be their own categories on the leaderboards. Sometimes the differences are considered tiny enough that they are on the same leaderboard, but it is noted down if the runner was using an actual NES or a more accessible emulator. I imagine that the different controllers in hypothetical competitive rhythm game tournaments would be placed in different categories, similar to how shooters in most cases probably have different matchmaking for player bases that use mouse+keyboard and the ones that use pad. Anyways, even if one controller is clearly superior to the other, I feel like that it shouldn't be completely alienated from the whole scene. To me it's slightly amusing that the Smash Bros community is still primarily using gamecube controllers, seemingly oddly stuck to their old ways of the Melee version of the series. I think that people are still allowed to use one single wii-mote or joy-con when entering tournaments, although it is sort of considered trolling. Sort of reminds me that Nintendo consoles probably don't have any fightstick support by default. Otherwise I'm not sure what that scene would look like, hahah. Would be a neat little alternate timeline. Anyways, that became a lengthier wall of text than I imagined. Anyways, I believe that the two main controllers discussed in the video are equal enough. And even if one of them was superior, I feel like the community shouldn't maybe go full "reject modernity, embrace tradition" route. Hmm, I guess there's budget reasons too. Which I'm not an expert on, but if my memory serves, the prices of the options are something like keyboard>gamepad>fightstick>hitbox? And as has been brought up, I think that keyboard functions almost similarly to a hitbox, if not exactly so, at least with this SOCD situation. Anyways, I believe that the game/software itself should be the deciding factor on how those are handled. Also makes me wonder if the fight stick could be remapped for the heck of it. Lever for kicks and punches etc, the right side buttons for movement, hahah. Anyways, I've probably ran out of things to scattermindedly list, at least for now. Personally was just surprised to learn that some hardass-elitists consider the thing a big issue.
The reason why Hitbox has hardware SOCD to make back forward into neutral is so that you can't hold back and tap forward punch to throw sonic boom. If it wasn't set to neutral and it used the in game SOCD you could throw sonic booms without ever letting go of the back input. This can still be done on keyboard because it has no hardware SOCD.
i play rhythm games, mostly VSRGs, so leverless controllers and their motions are extremely intuitive for me. also i do agree, that the issue should be solved on the software level, the controller shouldn't need to have special SOCD logic.
To give a bit more clarity on what Aris said, he compared hitbox to a corked baseball bat. A mediocre baseball hitter may not get that much advantage from a corked bat but a great baseball hitter will. So as long as there is an advantage that hitbox has over a stick then it doesn’t the amount of learning curve. Great players will overcome that and will have a competitive advantage. However, despite his belief that hitboxes (and d-pads) are cheating, Aris still feels that competitors should use whatever advantage they have (within the rules).
His rant about people cheating made no sense though. Especially for Tekken. You could mod your stick to use The extra buttons to do directions or whatever you wanted.
I'd say it's definitely cheating in spirit if it allows for inputs you otherwise would not be able to do. The fact that it lets you do something otherwise impossible pretty clearly seems like cheating anyway. Skill requirement is completely irrelevant to the discussion of an "even playing ground", because that skill requirement is subjective and will vary between players. Being able to hold forwards and backwards at the same time creates an irrefutable advantage for a hitbox player, making the competition not an "even playing ground". It is up to the player to be skilled enough to capitalize on this advantage, but it is undeniably there.
@@MrDeathbydying You missed the part where Brian addressed that. Brian points out you can do the same on pad, and before you talk about how awkward that might be, you should see high level Dante Players in the Devil May Cry Games. They use a claw grip to be able to hit the dpad and use the analog stick at the same time at high input rates to perform insane combos. Imagine then one of these players playing fighting games on pad and using that tech. Does that mean we ban pad? The answer is, it's a lot more nuanced than just that.
@@MrDeathbydying Couldn't you argue that stick has an "irrefutable" advantage over hitbox precisely because you CAN'T get SOCDs. You will never get neutral when you want to block because you absentmindedly put your finger on forward. Short throws for sticks muddy the waters of the timing argument as well. How exactly is back+forward an advantage anyways?
I completely agree. Hardware logic here sounds like modding the controller. All logics should be decided by the game. Else it's like hacking by taking a workaround to do stuff
Except that falls apart when you find out WHY the HitBox even introduced the hardware level SOCD. Tldr the Huffer brothers added that *because* they found games that weren't handling this situation and were _allowing_ things like Auto blocking crossups. Notably Marvel 3.
Ignoring the fact that modding a controller is legal if it's not a macro, SOCD is necessary at the hardware level when games could have some funky stuff happen if both inputs are taken in at face value. That or in brawlhalla where a huge player base uses keyboard it just takes the most recent opposite input and ignores the earlier one, but even then the game has evidence that funky shit happens when you hit both buttons on the same frame.
@@harrylane4 except no one SOCDs on pad cause that requires one finger on the dpad and another on the analog, which devs hella did not test. Absolutely an oversight.
Hardware SOCD logic is necessary rn cause games don't exactly handle it properly or consistently yet. In Marvel 3 by holding both directions you'd block on both sides negating crossups with non SOCD cleaning hardware, and that was part of what led to SOCD cleaning become not only standard but required in basically every tournament ruleset. Personally I just think it's fine to have SOCD cleaning on the hardware side if the rules surrounding it are clear, which rn, IMO, they are in most tournaments. People are complaining about this unnecessarily, hitbox is strong and there's all there is to it.
I'm going through the relearning process now! WHY? Im a dpad player and tired of misjumps misinputs. OMG! 3 days in now and it's such a world of difference. I love ALL BUTTON CONTROLLERS!!!
@@wavetime3651 Same, I even posted a comment there that gained traction breaking down the BS he was saying. He jumped from multiple topics in one sentence, it came out like a jumbled mess. His stance on the whole hitbox schtick was ridiculous.
@@SlaineReigns he said both pad and hitbox should be banned which is ridiculous since Stick is a niche item in an already niche genre of gaming. If we restrict the controllers people wanna use, the FG cannot grow
@@wavetime3651 Exactly, it's ridiculous that these people can't get past the lever arcade stick. I for one have played in the arcades and competed in tournaments in TK6:BR. So I understand the whole love to using a lever, but his stance is too extreme. The fact is the hitbox isn't breaking any rules, sure you have better precision and more speed in inputs, but this has been done by the pad for decades now. If we want the FGC to expand, we need to stop this closed-minded nonsense.
I joke about playing on a 'cheatbox' but I honestly was just tired of technical issues playing on stick - microswitches dying on me, balltops coming loose, making sure it didn't fall on the joystick (especially while traveling), etc.; I had a background playing games with WASD/kb+m controls and liked playing charge, so Hitbox just seemed like an obvious choice. As Brian says, some things definitely feel easier, like *cheating*, but you give up on other things. Half-circles in some games can be inconsistent in KOF, a character like Ukyo in SamSho is basically unplayable for me b/c of the Tsubame Gaeshi input, and even with the DP shortcuts in SFV I found I didn't necessarily gravitate towards characters with them (but that's me).
Really the "cheating" inputs like SFV super are quite easy to handle if developers think about hitbox when designing their games. That you can avoid diagonals when doing QCF>QCF supers is what makes that execution much easier on hitbox, but add the diagonals back in and suddenly it's almost easier on stick because it's designed with more fluent motions. All it takes is trying to play KoF on a hitbox to notice that execution wise the only cheat you get in that game is with charge characters and in general the device feels a lot more unintuitive than a stick does.
This is a strange take. Stick is a set of motions that your body straightup doesnt do normally. I was better on hitbox than gamepad within 2 days. I practiced stick for 2 weeks and got nowhere. Hitbox is like a keyboard so its pretty intuitive from playing pc games.
It's funny to me that I have the reverse problem. Playing with mixbox was easy for me because I come from a keyboard background. The transition to stick and pad is hell. I think environment has a bigger role to play in what device is more comfortable than which inputs are easier on which device.
I immediately came in here when I seen that IIDX controller on the thumbnail 🤣. I always like to hear your thoughts and explanations because you always bring good info to the situation. Thanks for the video and keep up the good work!
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As a stickless player myself, I've come to believe that the Hit Box-style U+D=U resolution is indeed a bit unfair. Stick players cannot get that input so clean, skipping neutral, except with a very high level of skill, whereas it's trivial on stickless. I think stickless controllers should do away with U+D=U and instead just make it U+D=N. That still makes perfect flash kicks possible, it just requires you to "earn" it by actually working on your execution (i.e. making sure to release D and hit U on the same frame, just like a stick player has to make sure to slam the lever up as fast as possible). Making your fingers do what your game sense wants is a key part of fighting games, and unfortunately that means we do have to think about how easy things are on different controllers. (And for the record, I think the Antagonist button is equally unfair.)
I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea that the software should determine what form of SODC is used. I think the biggest issue stick players have is that it's physically impossible to hold 2 directions on a stick. Add to that the fact that when you hold left and right on a hitbox and let go of one of them it counts that as pressing the direction you're still holding. What I think the beef here is, is that certain motions in fighters are themselves part of the balance of certain moves, and the devs haven't realized they're not making arcade games anymore. On a keyboard, pad or hitbox, you can do a walkbalk Ryu super, or dp, and still block. This messes with the balancing of the move as you're not supposed to be able to block while doing these things. At the end of the day though, it's on the devs to figure this out. If something can be done on one form of input, you can't really ban other controllers that do the same thing.
Curious what your thoughts are on alternate SOCD options. I have a raspberry pico fight board that offers a "last input wins" option. So if I press and hold these 3 buttons [right, down and then left] the final input would be down left. On one hand I find certain motion controls stupid easy (like Strives ultimates halfcircle-back-forward) but I don't have access to all the "tricks" associated with the traditional SOCD options. It also makes the most intuitive sense, I pressed the button I wanted last (most recently)
I think this is the general argument most people have against hitboxes. It's hard to police what SOCD options, if any, someone is using. Also every game handles it differently.
The CPT rule for SOCD is that the controller should send either both L + R inputs, or no input. So having your Pico device regulate your inputs so that "last input wins" is already currently banned under CPT rules. The weird thing about this situation though is that the game sort of gives you an SOCD advantage by sending both inputs due to how the software handles it. It would make perfect sense if the game also read L + R as "no input". That way the situation becomes, "either your controller sends no input, or the software does it for you - devices that send any other inputs are breaking the rules." I think this is a major failing on Capcom's part - they should have patched this right after the CPT ruling a few years ago after the Daigo Grafbox controversy.
@@soggytoast111 So I understand, you're saying L+R=Forward is legal right? The reason for SOCD is so only one input gets sent whenever two buttons are pressed, right? The last input wins option is the same, it only sends the one input even tho I am pressed opposed directions. I don't understand why that would be banned but L+R=forward isn't. If anything "last input wins" is more like the traditional stick logic. For a half circle motion I start forward and end back.
@@herdinstinct8282 L + R = forward is happening at the software level - that's why it's legal. If you have a macro built inside your controller that does something like this then it's illegal - the controller can only send L + R or nothing. That's the rule. The fact that the game is coded to read L + R as forward is kind of a separate issue. I think it's completely wrong and the developers should patch this to match the CPT rule so that it's always L + R = nothing - either the controller sends nothing, or the game reads the input as nothing when the controller sends both. That would make perfect sense to me.
@@soggytoast111 I'm pretty certain there is a hardware setting on many fight boards that change how SOCD is processed. My brooks board has that option and I'm pretty certain there haven't been any issues with it. Edit: the option to change between L+R= (Neutral or forward)
21:39 I'm one of those. Feels great that a strong player like you understood that. I've switched to hitbox mainly to be able to play multiple games with a single device. I've thrown all my arcade stick dexterity in the bin to start anew. I'm losing with people that i used to wash without even try but i don't care. I just want to learn and achieve one day a par or better performance of the one i had on stick while grinding the experience. Thanks brian
Here's the fundamental question, does the developer intended for super to be executed with only 4 frames? If they do, then hitbox is not cheating. If they don't then it's a cheat or at best an exploit.
did you miss the part where he said the shortcut can be done on pad? #banpad unless youre doing it in neutral it really doesnt matter, even then its a few frames difference at most.
Brian, let me give you a huge heads up: the problem is the ring finger. It is not wired for independent movement the way index, middle, and thumb are. Move jump to your ring finger, and it should be a lot easier. Thumb should be down direction, right should be index finger; left should be middle finger The thumb is your strongest/most independent digit and it is wasted on jump which is the cardinal direction used least.
@@joncliffmckinley5868 I have betrayed something about myself, and you have correctly deduced that I don't play anime fighters. I apologize for making generalized recommendations when I really should have said that for SFV specifically, that is the mapping I would do. Cheers, buddy
This is a unique take on hitbox style play that I haven't seen before. I play anime fighters but my ring finger gets tired VERY fast when doing DP inputs from P2 side, because like you said, it's not wired for independent movement like the index, middle, and thumb. It has not gotten easier or more comfortable over time, so I might actually try your suggestion of using ring finger for jump, middle for left direction, index for right direction, thumb for down direction.
@@Angelo_August Let me know how it goes! I found it almost immediately better, though still made "old layout" mistakes for like 2 weeks. By one month, there was no way I was going back
@@jml235 I tried it and it ended up being not what what I expected. Turns out that doing 623 motions with index and thumb from P1 side (or 421 motions from P2 side) is even harder than just using the default leverless layout. I guess for people playing characters that dont do DP motions it might be OK, but it didn't fit my own needs
It's always good to step out of your comfort zone and try things. I think, ultimately, that the best controller really is whichever one you can best use, so long as it's also a legal one(unless you don't tourney!)
yo mad respect thumbnail with the IIDX controller bro, rhythm game of the gods going forward with fighting games, hitbox / mixbox will have to be considered by devs now and i agree it's hard to jump from stick to hitbox , my left ring finger is weak asf
As a longtime keyboard player, I obviously fully disagree with the Hitbox "cheatbox" thing. What, if you want to ban Hitbox should you ban keyboards too? Keyboard is the most basic gaming peripheral out there that is easier to obtain than a stick and even a pad. I reckon many other Southeast Asian players like me are also accustomed to gaming with the keyboard in general. So by banning these things, it's similar to just alienating a subsection of the community.
Rant or not, this needed to be said. Whether you're on pad, stick or box they all have advantages and disadvantages. I absolutely love things the way they are.
I find the "Let the software decide" premise interesting because SF6 *is* deciding on many of these issues. Fast 4 input supers bother you? Try one direction+ 2 buttons for what used to be a 720° + 3 buttons input. Think blocking left/right is cheating? Try a 2 button, frame 1, omnidirectional parry that not only covers crossups but also high/low mixups as well. We also still don't know how Guile's perfect charge timing works. But it's extremely unlikely they would make it impossible to achieve on stick. And if that's the case, then being able to charge a worse version of a special move a couple of frames faster is irrelevant.
All the unfair advantages of leverless controllers are resolved if the SOCD is set to "First-input Controlled Priority." That eliminates instant blocking (skipping neutral) when walking forward, eliminates fast walking back and forth (skipping neutral), and eliminates crouching Flash Kicks (skipping neutral). For modern fighting games with SOCD, design the software to be set to First-input Controlled Priority and ban any hardware setting that's not set to Natural or No Resolution. For older fighting games with No Resolution SOCD, have the hardware set to First-input Controlled Priority, ban the rest of the settings. Problem solved. Required reading here: www.hitboxarcade.com/blogs/support/what-is-socd
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That's pretty extreme. If I'm reading the blog post correctly, your proposal means: When you hold L then hit R (for example), you get N, and in order to get R you need to both let go of L _and_ re-press R. In other words, if a player doesn't absolutely perfectly release one direction before hitting the other, they get squat. Compare this to how levers behave: It doesn't matter "how" you go from L to R, the lever automatically ensures that L is released before R is hit. There are far less extreme ways to implement SOCD cleaning that does away with neutral-skipping unless the player does frame-perfect inputs - in other words, complete parity with what's possible on lever.
@ No. First-input Controlled Priority is you hold L -> you hold R -> what happens is that you only get a held L. You have to then let go of L and press R again.
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@@Arek_1 right, I understand. My points stand. It's a very extreme approach that makes buttons much, much worse than lever.
@ With Last Input Priority, the change in direction is done through tapping, skipping neutral. In First Input Priority, the change in direction is done through release, skipping neutral. Gotta be First-input Controlled Priority. And letting go of left/right to press right/left or the same for down and up in theory isn't awkward. In those cases, that's the greatest sudden change in movement for your wrist. More akin to a gross motor skill than a fine motor skill.
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@@Arek_1 you're assuming that the only way to prevent "unfair" neutral skipping is to implement the "controlled" style. That's not the case. There are ways to achieve that without making things incredibly clunky. Have you ever played a delay-based game online? The way that those games sometimes just eat your inputs is very similar to how it would feel to use last input controlled priority without perfect execution. You would often hit a button only for absolutely nothing to happen. I challenge you to try a half circle or 360 on buttons and perfectly release left before hitting right every single time. It is nowhere near as easy as you're making it sound.
The statement that socd cleaning where left + right is neutral, is a macro, is false. It is not too different as hold down back. Two buttons giving one action. A macro would be holding down a button to execute a down back. Imagine a button that allow you to charge sonic boom, flash kick, and low block at the same time
me playing fg's with a hitbox-style layout (keyboard), it feels like playing a 2d platformer lmao. idk if that makes sense but it's very intuitive for me as a guy who grew up playing everything on pc with a kb
I've said this a million times this last week. ASD + Spacebar should not be banned. Period. Now, SOCD cleaners should be banned. The games should decide. As it stands now, the game NEVER decides what to do with SOCDs because it NEVER sees the SOCDs. So in my opinion THIS is the solution. Ban the cleaners. Or have a tournament lockout switch that disables it. And I think Brian is the FIRST person to provide the correct answer.
Bro, just had a discussion with a player in the comments on another video. He say players shouldn't even be allowed to compete on a regular keyboard. They are just angry that they aren't winning.
People are just scared of hitbox because it combines the benefits of pad and fightstick. Pad makes motion inputs much faster, but stick makes it much easier to hold multiple buttons and do piano inputs. Hitbox can do all of that, but I don't consider it cheating
I think it's just a matter of what hitbox is capable of doing that sticks are just simply not. Not to mention it's way easier to cheat with the software on hitbox. I'm sort of with Aris when he said he didn't even think pads should be legal. Obviously it's not possible cause that cuts out over 50% probably more, of players, in an already niche group.
also you can't really hold opposing directions on a pad unmodified unless you use the joystick, which a number of games have disabled. Even if you did use it that way it's so cumbersome to do it's not even worth it. End of the day you can hold every direction with one hand on a hitbox and it's not possible to do that on stick or pad.
stick is the only controller that isnt capable of doing what pad and hitbox can. maybe instead of thinking the hitbox gives people an unfair advantage, because it doesnt, you should look at the stick as a handicap. not that it matters outside of professional play.
@@hmad898 you can only hold opposite directions on pad if you use the thumbstick like I said, which is hardly practical. i was saying hitbox is the only controller you can hold all directions simultaneously with a single hand.
If arcade cabinets had originally been built with cardinal direction buttons rather than a stick, and console controllers hadn't adopted analog sticks, these Hitbox-style input devices wouldn't even be a problem right now. They'd literally be the standard.
That's kind of a wild what if to make. Hitbox inputs aren't intuitive at all, so I'm guessing that would have just ended up with less people playing those games all together.
@@Ceasonal Only wild from our perspective knowing how things have developed. But go back to when inputs were revolutionize by turning the diamond gate into the square gate to accommodate the quarter circle motion. If they hadn't made that innovation, we may have had Smash style inputs as a mechanical standard.
@@Ceasonal what is not to get? Left goes left, right goes right. Only up and down are switched. WASD style hitboxes are also a thing. This concept isn't that much different than a dpad.
to fit the pad simultaneous button inputs I have buttons on the back of my controller that I can map to up and down so I can immediately get a flash kick out
Just start making everything half and whole circle inputs rather than double qcf and shoryu inputs /s Though admittedly, I feel like the places where hitbox does have some input jank, it seems like it's predominantly with lightning fast charge inputs, and anything where the stick doesn't continue in one fluid motion around the edge of the gate. Like shoryus, double qcfs, stuff like that
I agree with having the software decide.I can use SOCD on my controller without even touching the analog stick because I opened my controller and separated the Dpad into separate buttons and I also have paddles on my other controller that I use for shooters which can do the same thing(easier too). Input should be just preference, if a players input breaks how the games mechanics function such as SOCD, you develop around it with things like socd cleaning
its not abut speed or whats easier or harder. its what u can and cant do on stick. and im telling u right now u cant do a 4 frame super on stick or pad
I think saying hitbox is not intuitive is BS when i first started playing on stick from pad it took me months to just be comfortable with doing simple things when i try to play on keyboard with asd and spacebar i find it pretty intuitive because i've played games on PC before and i'm used to this layout. Nothing is inherently intuitive it all depends on your past experiences and stickless layout isn't any harder than stick if you have played it as much as stick it has no drawbacks. However i don't think it should be banned the only thing i think that should be ban is anything other than SOCD neutral and i agree that devs should be the ones to put that in the game that way stickless layouts just have to send their raw inputs without any interpretation
You and Aris really helped put some things into perspective. Thanks for the awesome videos, Brian. I don't give af at all about Street Fighter but you're a great content creator and resource for anyone who wants to get better at their games.
@@Jack91790 Yes. Disagreements usually help an outside party (me in this instance) have more clarity because I get to see two different viewpoints and the common ground they might have.
I find it kinda funny that the smash community is way past this conversation even tho leverless does way more ridiculous stuff when it replaces an analog stick. If you know how anal smashers are about good gamecube controllers and even they can embrace leverless controllers then it can't be that big of a deal for all the other fighting games out there.
Gonna chime in. As someone who plays both, I totally agree with your assessment. I feel like playing fighting games with lots of motion inputs are OPTIMAL on stick. It's so much easier to move the lever to do a hadoken than it is to move my index, middle, and ring finger all together. However, 3D fighting games like Tekken and Dead or Alive and Virtua Fighter, where there's not much motion inputs, hitbox is definitely better. Especially since movement matters so much more than execution. Pad is the best of both worlds, but I had to stop playing pad since I would hurt my thumbs. Also, in Tekken, using the stick hurts my wrists, so it's more comfortable to just use my fingers. And in Street Fighter, well, I can't do half-circle inputs as well. All in all, just play whatever is most comfortable for you. Don't listen to the haters.
I think a lot of people are floating around the Hitbox discussion not realizing we had this discussion YEARS ago when pad came out. First Guilty Gear local I ever went to I had people sneering at me when I expressed my surprise at the amount of stick players.
Funny how Melee also suffers from this controller controversy with the B0xx too. People are saying it's cheating and offers alot more than a regular controller but real thing is yeah, it might offer some advantages over a controller but at the same time simple things like angles and something as simple as pivoting is executionally harder. I switched to B0xx to be able to play Strive and Melee all on one controller. Just like with the B0xx in the Melee side, I don't think it should be banned even on the FGC side.
When SFV lets you double-tap down-forward to get a forward > down > down-forward input for DPs, you can't really claim that a controller is letting you "cheat your inputs".
I can see a future where SOCD options are the new turbo buttons. Personally I wish I could get used to Hitbox but personal preference about the button size has been keeping me on the good old stick, its funny how tribal people get about their input devices tho
SLIGHT correction brian. I looked up the rules again and it states for left right simul inputs: "When both Right and Left directional keys are input at the same time, a controller must either maintain both of the inputs or abandon both." didn't know cpt banned last input socd, but they did so while legalizing having NO socd... WHICH IS HILLARIOUS BECAUSE NO SOCD ACTSL LIKE LAST INPUT FOR THE SAKE OF MOST CHARGE MOVES BECAUSE OF HOW THE GAME IS PROGRAMED XD IT MAKES NO SENSE
The only argument I can think of is that you can do charge moves literally a frame faster than on stick/pad since you can skip neutral, but Urien players having been skipping neutral for years and people ain’t say shit
Why is there such a debate around Hitboxes now, while it's been around for several years? Hard to not suspect that iDom's loss to a Hitbox player isn't one of the reasons behind that sudden interest on the matter. And I'm not putting the blame on iDom in case you're wondering, he took the L like the champion he is and didn't blame his opponent's controller. The twitter crowd however...
I just dislike it because half the videos on youtube and twitter boasting about em are directly sponsored and/or funded by them, it doesnt feel like I'm seeing a new advancement in controllers, it feels like I'm being advertised to, like a console comparison being sponsored by microsoft or sony.
i think people from the arcade era do find it more intuitive and games are built around the physical design of a stick which does help but people who grew up with pad find that intuitive and now in poorer countries where pad is the premium option, people find keyboard more intuitive cause that's what they grew up with. it's almost like a funky love triangle of sorts that stick boomers are shitting on hitboxes for unfair advantage, poor pad users are envying stick cause they think that's the intended way to play fgs and the poorest in line, keyboard players in 3rd world countries think anything above is better while arguably using what's considered the most "superior" input option overseas which is all button at the end of the day, similar to hitbox. there is a component of hardware socd cleaning but it's not relevant to the mechanical advantage of shorter actuation time. people should understand there are pros and cons to all of these options and that there really doesn't have to be a financial gear gate for most people, because all button controllers are incredibly easy to build with open source firmware AND hardware nowadays. same goes for shoebox sticks, mechanical keyboards and well, pad is free if you own a console.
@@Tomatonator stick also has a fun factor because of game design intentions targeting stick. i'd probably find it fun to play on as well after getting used to the lack of precision. big buttons and a big ol metal rod to waggle around sure sound inherently fun.
I swear to god there used to be the argument when consoles were starting to see fighting games come on different systems between pads and sticks where people would say a stick allowed you to piano buttons better so it was faster.
"If this is not how the game is meant to be played then the developers will have to develop around this" there are bans stages, bans some costumes, just in this game. in other games, there are character bans, strategies bans, items bans... and etc etc etc. "let the developers decide..." so First to 1 in every tournament about the speed just remember Streetfighter IV in 3ds, very fast to "execute" And also the examples with the control pads are also very weak. You can do it, but is so hard that the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense. The argument doesn't change in a control pad or stick you cannot do the same that you can in a hitbox Also explain that while are you learning you have to think very deeply before executing, that happens to everyone when are learning a new technic, at the begging is hard to execute a dragon punch, but at some point, you just do it. This one is a kind of weak argument but, I guess U.S.A citizens can afford them, but so f*cking expensive. In the U.S.A there are tournaments with prize money that maybe make sense to buy one, in other countries costs millions plus the money to travel to U.S, hotel, food, and Visa.
Let's face it, in every other type of e-sports, people can use modern devices. People don't play counter strike with the same devices in 2004 and in 2022 and that's ... normal. The stick is a very old device, not adapted anymore to the current games and is indeed inferior to the hitbox. It kinda hurts because most of stick players (including myself) are very proud to use this compared to any other objects/controllers. But sadly in a competitive game you can't blame people for using the best tools. So yeah hitbox is crazy good compared to stick but either stick with your current controller or change but do not complain.
Yes they do. The internals of the mouse and keyboard have changed a lot over that time spans but they are still a keyboard and mouse. They do allow tkl keyboards, and yes there’s rgb and stuff but for the most part if you took a Time Machine and gave those current keyboards and mouse to someone in 2004 they would be able to play just as well if not better with those tools. I think the hitbox is a great alternative to the stick don’t get me wrong. I just don’t understand where you’re coming from here.
@@Ryan-go9wcHes coming from the fact many people complain and call a hitbox a "cheat box" because Avoid the Puddle and a couple other boomer fighter players called it cheap because its different from the stick they grew up with. Basically, shut up and adapt, or shut up and leave. Its part of the ecosystem now so stop bitching.
I agree that a lot of the weird techniques that happen on Buttonbox are a software issue rather than a hardware one, and it does probably have something to do with input leniency, as well as more standardization in inputs (we don't often get wonky games with like the pretzel or the plus sign or the pentagram, even a lot of charge character's supers are being simplified to double qcf). Input leniency is good but a lot of the ways it was programmed do seem to have the unintentional effect of advantaging Buttonbox inputs. For instance, how you can get a fireball motion with 2 6 and you can just skip the 3. On any "normal" control scheme the 3 would come out regardless and I believe that being able to miss it would make execution easier on Buttonbox. The "four frame super art" thing is only possible because you can skip the 3, yeah?
As Aris said, I am sure someone out there has Priority directions on their hitbox and is anyone policing them to check it? Im sure somoene's stick out there is Booming while blocking because they can hold two directions at once and no one out there policing and checking your hitbox if it can do it or not.
You do know you can do what your talking about pad??? Pad has no socd cleaning at all If you use a elite pad and ps5 edge pad you can do any hitbox tech and have no socd cleaning
Here's a big brain theory for all the Twitter theory fighters: Every controller gives a specific advantage and disadvantage. And honestly the lack of consideration for accessibility options through control methods in this community is honestly disgusting. Some people simply have physical issues when using certain controllers. I play pad exclusive due to bad hand cramps when playing lever without a leveled surface to rest it on while my friend can't play pad anymore due to on going hand issues so he plays stick.
I agree that it is more of a software(devs dealing with it) problem than the controller itself. Fighting games are technically built around the fight stick, so it does make sense to say that it is the right way to play fighting games. But the thing is, arcades are no longer a thing(unless you're in Japan apparently) and that's not likely to change. So it is only natural that the tournaments/community and games being developed will have to adapt to the fact that the majority of people don't play the game the way they were initially "intended to be played", and that it is not feasible to force/expect people to use arcade sticks. So it is either let the fgc become even a more niche community with time, or adapting to the natural change of paradigm/controller
I love the faces you make when you are debating an argument that you consider borderline dumb hahahaha. Such a clever video, man. I've played on pc keyboard for 2 years now and some stuff like half circles are HARD to do. But still, I just love it haha
People don’t take effort into account. You’re not “entitled to be equal” to the person that put 10000x time more into it than you did. It’s your ego speaking back to you to protect you stating something like: “It’s not you, Jimmy, nor this obviously more skilled person - it must be this inanimate object that cannot speak back”. This type of thinking sunk us into the Dark Ages.
Motion inputs were put in the game by the developers to balance moves. The fact that hitbox shortcuts let you circumvent this to an extent in ways that are both impossible on other input devices and not intended by the developers can be considered "cheating" (don't really like that word here because it's so emotionally charged, but you get the idea). Just because hitbox still requires practice/execuction and doesn't give you free wins doesn't mean this isn't a legitimate concern. I absolutely agree though that it's up do the devs to implement solution within the game rather than banning hitbox (it's actually what I use personally). The most logical solution like Brian mentioned would be to allow the game to handle SOCD in a way that doesn't allow for L+R=N shortcuts. Additionally, they could also tighten up input strictness for SF6 to be more in line with previous games since a lot of the hitbox shortcuts relay high input leniency to work. This would make a lot of sense considering SF6 is already going to have a modern control scheme for those who don't want to deal with motions. Moving forward, devs really need to be taking hitbox in consideration when balancing their games, because we're only going to see their adoption increase.
Except this isn't true. Because EVERYTHING(literally every single thing) that can be done on Hitbox can also be done on pad. So if pad is legal, Hitbox HAS to be legal by this logic. This argument only applies in the direct Hitbox/Stick comparison, but that's not the reality.
@@dooberknob3947 It depends on whether the pad has socd cleaning or not. As far as I know, most of them don't, so it's up to the game you're playing to decide. And either solution is equally strong. Some games default left + right to a neutral input (which most donkeys are complaining about), some default it to the last input. And you people don't even realize how good that would be either
It all boils down to one simple attitude that is dressed up with a plethora of excuses/accusations and that attitude simply is: "I learned to play on stick and it took me X years, so you should have to as well, because i dont like how you can learn execute certain techniques more quickly than it took me to learn on stick".
I don't really care for leverless controls, but I used a Hitbox a few years back and while it made some things downright trivial like Tekken movement, it made something as basic as a HCF/B command grab a challenge to pull off. I also play Soul Calibur and I just wasn't gonna do Ivy's grabs on that thing. Regarding SOCD cleaning, I'd prefer if going forward opposite directions presses don't provide neutral input but rather cancels the input entirely e.g. while holding left and right, if you want a left input you need to let go of both and input left cleanly.
@@joncliffmckinley5868 In the vid itself at around 10 mins Brain_F also shows that a basic Oro combo on stick becomes a challenge on Hitbox because of the HCB Don't have it anymore so I couldn't give you more details than my impressions of using it a couple years back
This guy was brainwashed into thinking hitbox/pad is fair. It's insane that a faster input device is seen as fair just because beginners aren't going to be good with it. That's not the point at all, it's seeing competitors of a high skill level taking an easier route to victory and if the opponent has a different device it can destroy the integrity. The entire gameplay of blocking and moving is totally different with a device that requires less force to input what you want. These games are still clearly developed with an arcade with in mind if they weren't then SF6 would had been a completely different take on the franchise because it cannot survive being a 2D fighter if the arcade stick is not meant to be a main component during development.
But isn't street fighter 6's modern input also faster input. Are you saying that that isn't fair? SF6 has seen multiple tournaments, and a lot of top 8s dont use modern controls.
i know it's kinda irrelevant but it kinda reminds me about Rockets' James Harden and how he draws so many fouls and get free throws. he did that because he knew about the rules of the NBA and he find a way to kinda make it beneficial to his game (lets just say this is the rules for SOCD, and using leverless controller that is not against the rules) Sure everyone called him "cheating" for all of those antics, but why didn't everybody also do what he does? because its not as easy as it looks to pull off what Harden did back then (transitioning from stick to leverless controller is not as easy as it looks) But in the end, he still not win any championship because come playoff time refs start to let defender play more physical so Harden didn't get as many free throws as he did in regular season, and also other team also had better gameplan, better players on their roster, etc. (let's say how Harden get his free throws is the execution in fighting games, but execution alone won't get you far, sure having advantage on that is something, but in the end you still need footsies, mind games, etc to win against your opponent not just your execution) And now NBA had changed the rules for this, and now Harden doesn't get that much free throws nowadays, does this mean the rules for SOCD also gonna change too in the future? who knows sorry for bad english tho lmao
I'm new to the fighting game genre, but I just wanted to say that your discussion here is very thoughtful and nuanced. I appreciate your insistence on objective measurement as a core reason for banning something, your stance on leaving it up to the devs to account for inputs in the software, and the fact that you touched on ergonomics and accessibility. I developed repetitive strain injuries in both of my hands and wrists a few years back that took a long time to recover from, and I had to stop playing games entirely for a while, so the ergonomics of a game are a major concern for me.
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In case you guys aren't fully aware of how PS4 pad already breaks all the arcade stick rules, here's a quick video showing how the flood gates have been burst open for years: th-cam.com/video/RFFu351TE60/w-d-xo.html
Couldnt they update modern games to not allow the joystick and dpad to be used for motion on pad (choose one or the other) then ban hitbox to avoid all socd issues?
@@nubesock5231 No because with a PS5 edge pad you can still map directions to the back of it. And with sony owning evo they are not going to ban thier official controllers
@@nubesock5231 Or we could just stop pretending stick has to be the standard simply because that's what it was 20 years ago.
@@vegta1000 - No but they could make them disconnect the paddles. They're removable.
HitBoxes were designed to be ergonomic and efficient by nature. You are typing commands VS levering them. Typing being ergonomically advantageous is not even a discussion. I typed this out... the action of typing hasn't changed in nearly 500 years because it's so efficient. Getting used to it for this function and retraining our brain is the issue, it's on the user. The fact Hitboxes were a nothing burger and now the people that have spent time with them, the people that were T8'ing anyway and are still T8'ing with Hitboxes really tells you one thing. There was a reason to change and it was advantageous - otherwise why take the time, they would have hit T8 anyway.
Now... IF it was just because sticks are a bitch for causing arthritis - sure. But lets be real. Nobody goes through all that effort just to try stop something that's going to happen anyway, especially not pro's. There's always an endgame play.
HitBox in theory, by design and by nature is faster and more accurate. Thems facts.
They appear to be sort of a "Win more" device. If you were going to win, that win just became more certain because of consistency with a more accurate tool. Which on it's own isn't bad, but if "Use a box or you're doing it wrong" becomes a thing... Well that would be beyond shit.
Should it be banned if that happens? Too early to say anything really.
"So I don't know, man, I don't know, I just feel like, shut the fuck up" ~ Brian_F, 2022
Truly an inspirational quote for the ages. Great rant, 10/10
The moment Boomer_F became Bully_F 💀
@: 19:20
I read this right when he said it haha
I learned the game on a hitbox style controller. I tried stick and I couldn't wrap my head (or hand coordination) around it. I tried a pad and my thumbs can't keep up with the motion inputs. The hitbox just resonated with me. If it weren't for hitbox controllers, I wouldn't be playing SF or any fighting game.
Sure
Same here. Movement on hitbox actually feels much more intuitive for me since jump is assigned to a button press like most games (or like a spacebar if you're play an FPS on m&kb) rather than up. There is a Round1 near me with Japanese SFV cabs and stick feels so floppy and imprecise for me.
Same here. I come from platformers and a ton of Brawlhalla, and I had a lot of fun jumping into Tekken, thinking that I'd have some fun if I tried it with a stick. I bought one and had a CRAZY adjustment period and still suck as consistently inputting directions while feeling incredibly sluggish. I regret my purchase but I'm glad I got the experience
Im similar in that i find i simple inputs more difficult with my thumbs, and the precision just isnt there. Button style controls just feel way more accessible to me
So you bought it first before playing any other fighting game?
Not enough people are mentioning keyboards (which are essentially hitboxes) tbh. PC has become much bigger, with some major fighting games like Tekken and GG having bigger playerbases on there. I can guarantee you that way more people are playing fighting games on keyboard nowadays than they do on stick, and banning that would be pretty similar to banning pads back when consoles took over arcades.
What I agree with is that the game should be the one to decide what happens when you press 2 opposite inputs simultaneously. In Tekken for example, holding back and forward results in neutral by default.
To me using a keyboard for fighting games is super uncomfortable. Buttons are too small and close together and my wrist starts aching after 5 mins of using the movement inputs
@@Tampontimothy rebind them to be wider apart then, I've seen some folks do QEG, or 2EF. Basically rest your hands comfortably on your keyboard the way people lay their hands on a hitbox, and see where your fingers rest and bind em to those.
I've played fighting games on the side for years on keyboard- one thing I used to do was pull a few keycaps around the buttons I use mainly for extended sessions, so there are no buttons nearby to get in the way, and you can map your buttons to spread out in the appropriate ways for you.
"Lets just allow cheating because too many people do it"
@@Wilkins325 so do you have an actual argument or
Hitbox resonates very well with a whole generation who's been playing FGs on PC with bare minimum equipment (keyboard). It's unthinkable to Japanese or westerners because they have a strong arcade culture, but there are places like East/Southeast Asia and South Korea, where Internet cafes and PC bangs are more common alternatives to game in. Disregarding hitbox/keyboard also means cutting off these parts of the world and their people out of the FGC. In GGStrive, people from SEA and SKorea having to find games in Japan server is all too common, because their local scene is already tiny.
Most of the Japanese top sfv players switched to hitbox tokida daigo kawano
@@vegta1000 And Daigo specifically said if Hitbox got banned, he'd switch to pad
@@JoelBurger Yeah well to be fair you can do all hitbox techs on a elite pad with pedals tbh so it isnt a bad move LOL
@@vegta1000 many of those players also has said it is unfair advantage throughout history. While being sponsored by them lol
What an ignorant comment Japanese are flocking to hitbox because it's stronger than any other device.
Thank you for pointing out that the Hitbox's out of box SOCD resolution is neutral input. To many people think you can actually press left/right at the same time, and send that input to the game. You can't without modding your firmware.
Motion inputs are definitely more intuitive on stick, but hit box provides much better feedback. On stick, I often find myself wondering how I messed up a particular input because I can't feel where each switch inside the stick activates/deactivates, where as on hit box I can usually feel what I'm doing wrong because I can see and feel my fingers as they press the buttons.
I remember when I was much younger around 2015 when I first got into fighting games I played skullgirls on my laptop keyboard I ended up having issues going to my friends houses to play because I never used pad. so I ended up purchasing a stick due to me asking another friend who understood way more about fighting games than I did whether I should get a hitbox or a stick since I thought keyboard muscle memory would apply much more easily to hitbox, and they told me to go for a stick so I did. It sucked, I could barely do anything and regretted my purchase for so long, but eventually got used to it. Even then I found that stick still feels unnatural to me but it felt better than pad. Years later I found out that the friend just hated hitbox part of the whole "cheatbox" crowd. I ended up trying out keyboard again and it felt fine still, so I went and purchased a hitbox and while some things were much harder due to the experience on stick I garnered over the years, tons of the inputs I was used to on keyboard were still there and it felt overall better for me to play. It only makes me hate the whole "cheatbox" angle because it's a device that can genuinely feel better for some people and for the people like me who were used to keyboard, not having a good option to play locally on a console would be kinda shitty. Hitbox just makes sense, doing Ranbu's in kof feels odd but getting clean dragon punches feels a lot better and I'm very willing to take that trade. Hell I find quarter circles a lot easier on it too, on stick I'd end up doing half circles when I wanted a quarter circle because It just wasn't my thing. The idea that it's an illegitimate way to play the game and wanting it banned is just goofy, and gatekeeping for the individuals who genuinely just like it, it's also just corny as hell.
You have to take the good and the bad. If it feels good for you, play with it. But accept that people will call it a cheat box because it does things impossible to do on other control scheme.
"i could barely do anything" look at this scrub.
it is absolutely wonderful to know that you will never achieve anything in any game, ever. because of your mindset.
@@kbkksh91 you alright dude? lmao
@@kbkksh91 its great to see that that you will never achieve anything meaningful in life, ever. because of your mindset
I hope they never ban Hitbox cuz it’s a perfect OS when losing, I’ll never have to own up to my own shortcomings as long as I can go “GGs cheatbox user”
I love my arcade stick. That said, people need to stop this nonsense. Every single time anything other than an arcade stick comes about, people want to call it “cheating.”
Same here. I own both a stick and a hitbox. The hitbox sure has advantage at certain inputs like dashing, charging or high jumping, but then it's a lot harder to do circle inputs consistently, whereas on the stick such inputs are very intuitive, plus it's always fun to play with the joystick. In the end every controller has pros and cons, and they should all be considered fair.
@@GeminionRay harder doesn't make it acceptable. It's not about what is harder or easier, it's about what's possible. That shortcut input he did on the hit box, is not possible on other devices.
@@jetsettech8804 hitbox is not cheating, it has advantages and a lot disadvantages, and this socd cleaner only makes things more uncomfortable, more conflicting inputs
@@willbm6836 the advantages outweigh the disadvantage of it being difficult. Difficulty means nothing to world class players. Being able to throw a sonic boom while keeping the charge for another? Literally not possible
@@jetsettech8804 if hitbox were better everyone would be on hitbox, in sfv pad is the easiest tool. socd cleaner is stupid ,that just makes things more uncomfortable,which is easily noticeable in older games, the inputs conflict all the time, if you hold down two buttons at the same time, the command does not come out, and this happens accidentally all the time.
you never have played on keyboard or hitbox, because if you had you would know
As a keyboard player, I agree that letting the software decide in cases of SOCD should be the solution. It's crazy to me that the CPT rules differ from the game's own engine. I'm a little upset knowing that I could be doing the same inputs as a hitbox player on my keyboard and getting different inputs in game.
That is the part that makes no sense to me. They made the game, they made the CPT rules, what possessed them to work completely at odds with each other.
Thing is the hardware limitations per CPT rules, while they help in some ways, hinder in others. I'm a former keyboard player (who uses stick now) and find hitbox really difficult because of that.
I'd actually argue that you should let the hardware use any SOCD method it wants. Seems a lot more interesting for players and infinitely easier to manage for tournament organizers
It's because the CPT ruling was an emotional response to Daigo's first leverless controller. That controller had "second input" style socd cleaning. It was a foolish ruling based on ignorance instead of logically analyzing what the controller was capable of.
Tldr: Daigo's first leverless controller looked weird so people freaked. So, Capcom rushed an emotional ruling and used "L+R must = neutral" to justify it.
Brian is incorrect about the CPT rules. They say "When both Right and Left directional keys are input at the same time, a controller must either maintain both of the inputs or abandon both." Maintain both = what keyboard does = let game decide = forward
As someone who made the change to a leverless controller a couple of months ago, the "posture" of playing on stickless is very important, but if you get it correct it is tremendously less impact on your wrists and forearms. Most of the older folks I know in the FG scene have all gone to stickless for ergonomics.
I'm about to make the transition to leverless, but I'm using keyboard to test it out before making the jump. I get wrist pain and can feel strain not even 10 mins in. What's optimal posture like?
@@Smur95 To some extent it depends on what your arm/wrist health is. Hitbox company insists the best method is to hover your hands like playing piano, but I have nerve damage in my neck/shoulder so I rest my hands with a keyboard wrist rest, and my elbows bowed outwards. Do regular stretches too!
@@barbedwings Funny you mention that because I was thinking about a snackbox build where I attach the snackbox and a palm wrest to a cutting board lol. Sounds like it should work
@@Smur95 Yeah, a lot of folks in FGC Boomers (all in our 30s and 40s) use Snackbox Micros with a wrist rest like a keyboard.
I have problems with my hand health and as far as my particular condition goes, hitbox/keyboards are by far the most damaging type of devices to my health.
a guile lever player is severely disadvantaged against a guile hitbox player. hitbox can start charging new boom or flash kick 3+ frames faster than what is possible on a lever, also hit box can skip neutral completely when doing special or critical art. eg lever down, neutral, up kick
hitbox down up kick.
hitbox players should only play other hitbox players. I just bought a sf5 stick and I'm pissed I have to buy a hitbox just to be able to compete with hitbox users, really forced to. I want to buy a snackbox control (wish I didn't have to).
The arguments I can think as to why the SOCD at hardware level works the way it does right now are:
1. Older games don't handle pressing Left + Right at the same time very well (Blocking both ways in vanilla MVC3), so the hardware makes it always be Neutral to have consistency on any game you play.
2. In games where you can't skip any cardinal directions to do Half-Circle motions (Mainly older titles like, Super Turbo, Guilty Gear +R, etc.), it is extremely hard to get the whole motion to register, specially if you want to do it fast. In that case, since L+R = N, you can roll your finger and press L+D+R to get a forced Down input. It helps A LOT with consistency in those games.
3. For Down + Up = Up - It also helps A LOT in games where you need to super jump and do fast inputs (Any Marvel game that has triangle jumping).
Since hitbox is also for people who have some sort of physical issues with their hand, wrists, etc. Making things that are inherently difficult on this type of device but are free on any other, seems like a good idea to me.
Remember that not every game has charge characters or Flashkick motions and people still use hitbox in those games.
Okay let's stop all future progress because old games can't handle a different controller. Or we can just make it harder for.. reasons? It's just a keyboard with less buttons
He's optimazing his hitbox guys
It's interesting mentioning the intuitiveness of trying to use a hitbox for the first time and I totally agree, I had to basically memorize the order in which my fingers move up and down and which buttons to press in that sequence which was hard af for me at first, eventually you build those neurons but for complex motions and entire combos, it's a lot of work to wrap your head around it
I agree, as a PC player where the spacebar = jump and ASD = left, down, right in many games, it just feels off in fighting games for some reason.
I think it's actually pretty easy to draw a line here and I think that line ought to be drawn at adding extra ways to input the same thing strictly for the purpose of removing execution barriers, such as with the infamous hitbox crossup stick. You want to use buttons instead of a stick? Cool. Keys or even a full keyboard? Go for it. But when you're adding an *extra* down button above your usual right hand buttons exclusively for the purpose of something like completely nullifying the execution of performing electrics in Tekken, then you've gone too far.
The usual argument here is to compare it to a pad which has both an analog stick & a d-pad, but the difference is that it's highly impractical to use both those things on a pad, and it's not designed for you to do so. Whereas with the crossup, the entire point of the design is to design the controller in a way that allows you to completely circumvent intentional execution difficulty.
most extra buttons are used as just extra buttons for shortcuts that are already in the game, like fd in ggst being a button or something, and most people use just an average hitbox, (and styles with both are usually just for specific games) and that’s pretty much why no one cared about the Cross|Up potentially getting banned and i’m also pretty sure it has socd cleaning, and would technically be more legal than pad.
Another thing about hitbox support is that hitbox support is keyboard support, and keyboard support makes fighting games accessible to a lot of people, so they can just pick up a game without having to buy an expensive controller to play it.
The funny thing is that using Hitbox is a lot like driving Standard Transmission. It's easy, unless you EVER think about what you're doing. As soon as you stop to think about the inputs again, you're done.
Nobody should be complaining especially since BrolyLegs is able to compete at the level he is at. It's what you're comfortable with and your skill at the game.
Man, this is almost like if there was a competitive scene with rhythm games, the ones that use dance mats and taiko drum controllers would ban other people from using keyboards and gamepads.
After writing that, having all those 4 options in different leagues does make an amount of sense, so that was a bad comparison.
But reminds me of how the speedrunning scene does often list what hardware and software version the runner was using. Things like how the PC and console versions can be very different, sometimes different enough to be their own categories on the leaderboards. Sometimes the differences are considered tiny enough that they are on the same leaderboard, but it is noted down if the runner was using an actual NES or a more accessible emulator.
I imagine that the different controllers in hypothetical competitive rhythm game tournaments would be placed in different categories, similar to how shooters in most cases probably have different matchmaking for player bases that use mouse+keyboard and the ones that use pad.
Anyways, even if one controller is clearly superior to the other, I feel like that it shouldn't be completely alienated from the whole scene.
To me it's slightly amusing that the Smash Bros community is still primarily using gamecube controllers, seemingly oddly stuck to their old ways of the Melee version of the series. I think that people are still allowed to use one single wii-mote or joy-con when entering tournaments, although it is sort of considered trolling.
Sort of reminds me that Nintendo consoles probably don't have any fightstick support by default. Otherwise I'm not sure what that scene would look like, hahah. Would be a neat little alternate timeline.
Anyways, that became a lengthier wall of text than I imagined.
Anyways, I believe that the two main controllers discussed in the video are equal enough. And even if one of them was superior, I feel like the community shouldn't maybe go full "reject modernity, embrace tradition" route.
Hmm, I guess there's budget reasons too. Which I'm not an expert on, but if my memory serves, the prices of the options are something like keyboard>gamepad>fightstick>hitbox? And as has been brought up, I think that keyboard functions almost similarly to a hitbox, if not exactly so, at least with this SOCD situation. Anyways, I believe that the game/software itself should be the deciding factor on how those are handled.
Also makes me wonder if the fight stick could be remapped for the heck of it. Lever for kicks and punches etc, the right side buttons for movement, hahah.
Anyways, I've probably ran out of things to scattermindedly list, at least for now. Personally was just surprised to learn that some hardass-elitists consider the thing a big issue.
The reason why Hitbox has hardware SOCD to make back forward into neutral is so that you can't hold back and tap forward punch to throw sonic boom. If it wasn't set to neutral and it used the in game SOCD you could throw sonic booms without ever letting go of the back input. This can still be done on keyboard because it has no hardware SOCD.
There was something really weird in one of the sf2's where you could even walk forward and throw booms out since there's no socd
i play rhythm games, mostly VSRGs, so leverless controllers and their motions are extremely intuitive for me. also i do agree, that the issue should be solved on the software level, the controller shouldn't need to have special SOCD logic.
why does the thumbnail have a IIDX controller lmao
To give a bit more clarity on what Aris said, he compared hitbox to a corked baseball bat. A mediocre baseball hitter may not get that much advantage from a corked bat but a great baseball hitter will. So as long as there is an advantage that hitbox has over a stick then it doesn’t the amount of learning curve. Great players will overcome that and will have a competitive advantage. However, despite his belief that hitboxes (and d-pads) are cheating, Aris still feels that competitors should use whatever advantage they have (within the rules).
His rant about people cheating made no sense though. Especially for Tekken. You could mod your stick to use The extra buttons to do directions or whatever you wanted.
I'd say it's definitely cheating in spirit if it allows for inputs you otherwise would not be able to do. The fact that it lets you do something otherwise impossible pretty clearly seems like cheating anyway. Skill requirement is completely irrelevant to the discussion of an "even playing ground", because that skill requirement is subjective and will vary between players.
Being able to hold forwards and backwards at the same time creates an irrefutable advantage for a hitbox player, making the competition not an "even playing ground". It is up to the player to be skilled enough to capitalize on this advantage, but it is undeniably there.
@@MrDeathbydying You missed the part where Brian addressed that. Brian points out you can do the same on pad, and before you talk about how awkward that might be, you should see high level Dante Players in the Devil May Cry Games.
They use a claw grip to be able to hit the dpad and use the analog stick at the same time at high input rates to perform insane combos.
Imagine then one of these players playing fighting games on pad and using that tech. Does that mean we ban pad?
The answer is, it's a lot more nuanced than just that.
@@MrDeathbydying Couldn't you argue that stick has an "irrefutable" advantage over hitbox precisely because you CAN'T get SOCDs. You will never get neutral when you want to block because you absentmindedly put your finger on forward. Short throws for sticks muddy the waters of the timing argument as well. How exactly is back+forward an advantage anyways?
As a small example Guile from street fighter can throw sonic booms while blocking in certain sf title because of back + forward
0:18 excuse me?
I completely agree. Hardware logic here sounds like modding the controller. All logics should be decided by the game. Else it's like hacking by taking a workaround to do stuff
Except that falls apart when you find out WHY the HitBox even introduced the hardware level SOCD.
Tldr the Huffer brothers added that *because* they found games that weren't handling this situation and were _allowing_ things like Auto blocking crossups. Notably Marvel 3.
Ignoring the fact that modding a controller is legal if it's not a macro, SOCD is necessary at the hardware level when games could have some funky stuff happen if both inputs are taken in at face value. That or in brawlhalla where a huge player base uses keyboard it just takes the most recent opposite input and ignores the earlier one, but even then the game has evidence that funky shit happens when you hit both buttons on the same frame.
@@doublevendetta those games are playable on pad, no?
Then the devs knew about it.
@@harrylane4 except no one SOCDs on pad cause that requires one finger on the dpad and another on the analog, which devs hella did not test. Absolutely an oversight.
Hardware SOCD logic is necessary rn cause games don't exactly handle it properly or consistently yet. In Marvel 3 by holding both directions you'd block on both sides negating crossups with non SOCD cleaning hardware, and that was part of what led to SOCD cleaning become not only standard but required in basically every tournament ruleset. Personally I just think it's fine to have SOCD cleaning on the hardware side if the rules surrounding it are clear, which rn, IMO, they are in most tournaments. People are complaining about this unnecessarily, hitbox is strong and there's all there is to it.
I'm going through the relearning process now! WHY? Im a dpad player and tired of misjumps misinputs. OMG! 3 days in now and it's such a world of difference. I love ALL BUTTON CONTROLLERS!!!
This is the only intelligent discussion on this topic I’ve seen thus far
I like stick a bit more but I lost braincells watching Aris’ take on hitbox
@@wavetime3651 Same, I even posted a comment there that gained traction breaking down the BS he was saying. He jumped from multiple topics in one sentence, it came out like a jumbled mess. His stance on the whole hitbox schtick was ridiculous.
@@SlaineReigns he said both pad and hitbox should be banned which is ridiculous since Stick is a niche item in an already niche genre of gaming. If we restrict the controllers people wanna use, the FG cannot grow
@@wavetime3651 Exactly, it's ridiculous that these people can't get past the lever arcade stick. I for one have played in the arcades and competed in tournaments in TK6:BR. So I understand the whole love to using a lever, but his stance is too extreme. The fact is the hitbox isn't breaking any rules, sure you have better precision and more speed in inputs, but this has been done by the pad for decades now. If we want the FGC to expand, we need to stop this closed-minded nonsense.
I like hitbox, but I have to admit that I was schmoovin with Nagoriyuki in ggatrive with those quarter circle teleports when I had the arcade stick
I joke about playing on a 'cheatbox' but I honestly was just tired of technical issues playing on stick - microswitches dying on me, balltops coming loose, making sure it didn't fall on the joystick (especially while traveling), etc.; I had a background playing games with WASD/kb+m controls and liked playing charge, so Hitbox just seemed like an obvious choice. As Brian says, some things definitely feel easier, like *cheating*, but you give up on other things. Half-circles in some games can be inconsistent in KOF, a character like Ukyo in SamSho is basically unplayable for me b/c of the Tsubame Gaeshi input, and even with the DP shortcuts in SFV I found I didn't necessarily gravitate towards characters with them (but that's me).
Really the "cheating" inputs like SFV super are quite easy to handle if developers think about hitbox when designing their games. That you can avoid diagonals when doing QCF>QCF supers is what makes that execution much easier on hitbox, but add the diagonals back in and suddenly it's almost easier on stick because it's designed with more fluent motions. All it takes is trying to play KoF on a hitbox to notice that execution wise the only cheat you get in that game is with charge characters and in general the device feels a lot more unintuitive than a stick does.
This is a strange take. Stick is a set of motions that your body straightup doesnt do normally. I was better on hitbox than gamepad within 2 days. I practiced stick for 2 weeks and got nowhere. Hitbox is like a keyboard so its pretty intuitive from playing pc games.
It's funny to me that I have the reverse problem.
Playing with mixbox was easy for me because I come from a keyboard background. The transition to stick and pad is hell.
I think environment has a bigger role to play in what device is more comfortable than which inputs are easier on which device.
I immediately came in here when I seen that IIDX controller on the thumbnail 🤣. I always like to hear your thoughts and explanations because you always bring good info to the situation. Thanks for the video and keep up the good work!
As a stickless player myself, I've come to believe that the Hit Box-style U+D=U resolution is indeed a bit unfair. Stick players cannot get that input so clean, skipping neutral, except with a very high level of skill, whereas it's trivial on stickless. I think stickless controllers should do away with U+D=U and instead just make it U+D=N. That still makes perfect flash kicks possible, it just requires you to "earn" it by actually working on your execution (i.e. making sure to release D and hit U on the same frame, just like a stick player has to make sure to slam the lever up as fast as possible).
Making your fingers do what your game sense wants is a key part of fighting games, and unfortunately that means we do have to think about how easy things are on different controllers. (And for the record, I think the Antagonist button is equally unfair.)
I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea that the software should determine what form of SODC is used.
I think the biggest issue stick players have is that it's physically impossible to hold 2 directions on a stick.
Add to that the fact that when you hold left and right on a hitbox and let go of one of them it counts that as pressing the direction you're still holding. What I think the beef here is, is that certain motions in fighters are themselves part of the balance of certain moves, and the devs haven't realized they're not making arcade games anymore. On a keyboard, pad or hitbox, you can do a walkbalk Ryu super, or dp, and still block. This messes with the balancing of the move as you're not supposed to be able to block while doing these things.
At the end of the day though, it's on the devs to figure this out. If something can be done on one form of input, you can't really ban other controllers that do the same thing.
Curious what your thoughts are on alternate SOCD options. I have a raspberry pico fight board that offers a "last input wins" option.
So if I press and hold these 3 buttons [right, down and then left] the final input would be down left.
On one hand I find certain motion controls stupid easy (like Strives ultimates halfcircle-back-forward) but I don't have access to all the "tricks" associated with the traditional SOCD options.
It also makes the most intuitive sense, I pressed the button I wanted last (most recently)
I think this is the general argument most people have against hitboxes. It's hard to police what SOCD options, if any, someone is using. Also every game handles it differently.
The CPT rule for SOCD is that the controller should send either both L + R inputs, or no input. So having your Pico device regulate your inputs so that "last input wins" is already currently banned under CPT rules.
The weird thing about this situation though is that the game sort of gives you an SOCD advantage by sending both inputs due to how the software handles it. It would make perfect sense if the game also read L + R as "no input". That way the situation becomes, "either your controller sends no input, or the software does it for you - devices that send any other inputs are breaking the rules." I think this is a major failing on Capcom's part - they should have patched this right after the CPT ruling a few years ago after the Daigo Grafbox controversy.
@@soggytoast111 So I understand, you're saying L+R=Forward is legal right? The reason for SOCD is so only one input gets sent whenever two buttons are pressed, right? The last input wins option is the same, it only sends the one input even tho I am pressed opposed directions.
I don't understand why that would be banned but L+R=forward isn't.
If anything "last input wins" is more like the traditional stick logic. For a half circle motion I start forward and end back.
@@herdinstinct8282 L + R = forward is happening at the software level - that's why it's legal. If you have a macro built inside your controller that does something like this then it's illegal - the controller can only send L + R or nothing. That's the rule.
The fact that the game is coded to read L + R as forward is kind of a separate issue. I think it's completely wrong and the developers should patch this to match the CPT rule so that it's always L + R = nothing - either the controller sends nothing, or the game reads the input as nothing when the controller sends both. That would make perfect sense to me.
@@soggytoast111 I'm pretty certain there is a hardware setting on many fight boards that change how SOCD is processed. My brooks board has that option and I'm pretty certain there haven't been any issues with it.
Edit: the option to change between L+R= (Neutral or forward)
21:39 I'm one of those. Feels great that a strong player like you understood that. I've switched to hitbox mainly to be able to play multiple games with a single device. I've thrown all my arcade stick dexterity in the bin to start anew. I'm losing with people that i used to wash without even try but i don't care. I just want to learn and achieve one day a par or better performance of the one i had on stick while grinding the experience. Thanks brian
Here's the fundamental question, does the developer intended for super to be executed with only 4 frames? If they do, then hitbox is not cheating. If they don't then it's a cheat or at best an exploit.
Agreed. And I dont like the idea of having to buy special equipment to be at an equal playing field
@@tongpoo8985 it only really matters in professional play. just use what you want.
did you miss the part where he said the shortcut can be done on pad? #banpad
unless youre doing it in neutral it really doesnt matter, even then its a few frames difference at most.
@@hmad898 I know you can also do it on pad, but doing it on pad is not practical at all and it's not usable in a real fight.
@@tongpoo8985 You didn't pay for your first controller or stick?
Brian, let me give you a huge heads up: the problem is the ring finger. It is not wired for independent movement the way index, middle, and thumb are. Move jump to your ring finger, and it should be a lot easier.
Thumb should be down direction, right should be index finger; left should be middle finger
The thumb is your strongest/most independent digit and it is wasted on jump which is the cardinal direction used least.
except in anime fighters. you need up a lot in anime fighters
@@joncliffmckinley5868
I have betrayed something about myself, and you have correctly deduced that I don't play anime fighters. I apologize for making generalized recommendations when I really should have said that for SFV specifically, that is the mapping I would do. Cheers, buddy
This is a unique take on hitbox style play that I haven't seen before. I play anime fighters but my ring finger gets tired VERY fast when doing DP inputs from P2 side, because like you said, it's not wired for independent movement like the index, middle, and thumb. It has not gotten easier or more comfortable over time, so I might actually try your suggestion of using ring finger for jump, middle for left direction, index for right direction, thumb for down direction.
@@Angelo_August
Let me know how it goes! I found it almost immediately better, though still made "old layout" mistakes for like 2 weeks. By one month, there was no way I was going back
@@jml235 I tried it and it ended up being not what what I expected. Turns out that doing 623 motions with index and thumb from P1 side (or 421 motions from P2 side) is even harder than just using the default leverless layout. I guess for people playing characters that dont do DP motions it might be OK, but it didn't fit my own needs
It's always good to step out of your comfort zone and try things. I think, ultimately, that the best controller really is whichever one you can best use, so long as it's also a legal one(unless you don't tourney!)
yo mad respect thumbnail with the IIDX controller bro, rhythm game of the gods
going forward with fighting games, hitbox / mixbox will have to be considered by devs now
and i agree it's hard to jump from stick to hitbox , my left ring finger is weak asf
"hitbox is not intuitive" meanwhile, me , a keyboard warrior.
damn hitbox getting some good publicity over this controversy
As a longtime keyboard player, I obviously fully disagree with the Hitbox "cheatbox" thing. What, if you want to ban Hitbox should you ban keyboards too? Keyboard is the most basic gaming peripheral out there that is easier to obtain than a stick and even a pad. I reckon many other Southeast Asian players like me are also accustomed to gaming with the keyboard in general. So by banning these things, it's similar to just alienating a subsection of the community.
Exactly!
Rant or not, this needed to be said. Whether you're on pad, stick or box they all have advantages and disadvantages. I absolutely love things the way they are.
I find the "Let the software decide" premise interesting because SF6 *is* deciding on many of these issues.
Fast 4 input supers bother you? Try one direction+ 2 buttons for what used to be a 720° + 3 buttons input.
Think blocking left/right is cheating? Try a 2 button, frame 1, omnidirectional parry that not only covers crossups but also high/low mixups as well.
We also still don't know how Guile's perfect charge timing works. But it's extremely unlikely they would make it impossible to achieve on stick.
And if that's the case, then being able to charge a worse version of a special move a couple of frames faster is irrelevant.
of course Hitbox motions have geomotry:
simply imagine a curved non euclidian space
All the unfair advantages of leverless controllers are resolved if the SOCD is set to "First-input Controlled Priority." That eliminates instant blocking (skipping neutral) when walking forward, eliminates fast walking back and forth (skipping neutral), and eliminates crouching Flash Kicks (skipping neutral). For modern fighting games with SOCD, design the software to be set to First-input Controlled Priority and ban any hardware setting that's not set to Natural or No Resolution. For older fighting games with No Resolution SOCD, have the hardware set to First-input Controlled Priority, ban the rest of the settings. Problem solved.
Required reading here:
www.hitboxarcade.com/blogs/support/what-is-socd
That's pretty extreme. If I'm reading the blog post correctly, your proposal means: When you hold L then hit R (for example), you get N, and in order to get R you need to both let go of L _and_ re-press R. In other words, if a player doesn't absolutely perfectly release one direction before hitting the other, they get squat. Compare this to how levers behave: It doesn't matter "how" you go from L to R, the lever automatically ensures that L is released before R is hit.
There are far less extreme ways to implement SOCD cleaning that does away with neutral-skipping unless the player does frame-perfect inputs - in other words, complete parity with what's possible on lever.
@ No. First-input Controlled Priority is you hold L -> you hold R -> what happens is that you only get a held L. You have to then let go of L and press R again.
@@Arek_1 right, I understand. My points stand. It's a very extreme approach that makes buttons much, much worse than lever.
@ With Last Input Priority, the change in direction is done through tapping, skipping neutral. In First Input Priority, the change in direction is done through release, skipping neutral. Gotta be First-input Controlled Priority.
And letting go of left/right to press right/left or the same for down and up in theory isn't awkward. In those cases, that's the greatest sudden change in movement for your wrist. More akin to a gross motor skill than a fine motor skill.
@@Arek_1 you're assuming that the only way to prevent "unfair" neutral skipping is to implement the "controlled" style. That's not the case. There are ways to achieve that without making things incredibly clunky. Have you ever played a delay-based game online? The way that those games sometimes just eat your inputs is very similar to how it would feel to use last input controlled priority without perfect execution. You would often hit a button only for absolutely nothing to happen.
I challenge you to try a half circle or 360 on buttons and perfectly release left before hitting right every single time. It is nowhere near as easy as you're making it sound.
The statement that socd cleaning where left + right is neutral, is a macro, is false. It is not too different as hold down back. Two buttons giving one action. A macro would be holding down a button to execute a down back. Imagine a button that allow you to charge sonic boom, flash kick, and low block at the same time
me playing fg's with a hitbox-style layout (keyboard), it feels like playing a 2d platformer lmao. idk if that makes sense but it's very intuitive for me as a guy who grew up playing everything on pc with a kb
I've said this a million times this last week. ASD + Spacebar should not be banned. Period.
Now, SOCD cleaners should be banned. The games should decide. As it stands now, the game NEVER decides what to do with SOCDs because it NEVER sees the SOCDs.
So in my opinion THIS is the solution. Ban the cleaners. Or have a tournament lockout switch that disables it.
And I think Brian is the FIRST person to provide the correct answer.
ok bro when you cant stop Guile from doing walking back/forward instant flashkicks, remember that logic
@@egg64 Remember to read next time when he says the game should decide. If Guile is able to do that then that's on Capcom.
@@vaudou_ Capcom also failed to make a game where half the stages don't have to be banned from competitive. What's your point?
@@mechadeka The point is obvious to people who aren't idiots looking to argue
@@vaudou_ so fuck those old games or should we hope capcom updates these games to be hitbox legal??
Bro, just had a discussion with a player in the comments on another video. He say players shouldn't even be allowed to compete on a regular keyboard. They are just angry that they aren't winning.
People are just scared of hitbox because it combines the benefits of pad and fightstick. Pad makes motion inputs much faster, but stick makes it much easier to hold multiple buttons and do piano inputs. Hitbox can do all of that, but I don't consider it cheating
@@KyleTBelmont ikr? Using pads I have tired left thumb
@@KyleTBelmont pad has less travel time than stick
I think it's just a matter of what hitbox is capable of doing that sticks are just simply not. Not to mention it's way easier to cheat with the software on hitbox. I'm sort of with Aris when he said he didn't even think pads should be legal. Obviously it's not possible cause that cuts out over 50% probably more, of players, in an already niche group.
also you can't really hold opposing directions on a pad unmodified unless you use the joystick, which a number of games have disabled. Even if you did use it that way it's so cumbersome to do it's not even worth it. End of the day you can hold every direction with one hand on a hitbox and it's not possible to do that on stick or pad.
stick is the only controller that isnt capable of doing what pad and hitbox can. maybe instead of thinking the hitbox gives people an unfair advantage, because it doesnt, you should look at the stick as a handicap. not that it matters outside of professional play.
@@hmad898 you can only hold opposite directions on pad if you use the thumbstick like I said, which is hardly practical. i was saying hitbox is the only controller you can hold all directions simultaneously with a single hand.
If arcade cabinets had originally been built with cardinal direction buttons rather than a stick, and console controllers hadn't adopted analog sticks, these Hitbox-style input devices wouldn't even be a problem right now. They'd literally be the standard.
That's kind of a wild what if to make. Hitbox inputs aren't intuitive at all, so I'm guessing that would have just ended up with less people playing those games all together.
@@Ceasonal Only wild from our perspective knowing how things have developed. But go back to when inputs were revolutionize by turning the diamond gate into the square gate to accommodate the quarter circle motion. If they hadn't made that innovation, we may have had Smash style inputs as a mechanical standard.
"if this contentious thing was never contentious it wouldn't be a problem"
@@ameersher fr wtf is this guy even saying lmao
@@Ceasonal what is not to get? Left goes left, right goes right. Only up and down are switched.
WASD style hitboxes are also a thing.
This concept isn't that much different than a dpad.
to fit the pad simultaneous button inputs I have buttons on the back of my controller that I can map to up and down so I can immediately get a flash kick out
Just start making everything half and whole circle inputs rather than double qcf and shoryu inputs /s
Though admittedly, I feel like the places where hitbox does have some input jank, it seems like it's predominantly with lightning fast charge inputs, and anything where the stick doesn't continue in one fluid motion around the edge of the gate. Like shoryus, double qcfs, stuff like that
I agree with having the software decide.I can use SOCD on my controller without even touching the analog stick because I opened my controller and separated the Dpad into separate buttons and I also have paddles on my other controller that I use for shooters which can do the same thing(easier too). Input should be just preference, if a players input breaks how the games mechanics function such as SOCD, you develop around it with things like socd cleaning
WASD out here being the best of both worlds
its not abut speed or whats easier or harder. its what u can and cant do on stick. and im telling u right now u cant do a 4 frame super on stick or pad
you can though. you can do that shortcut on pad. stick is the one that's falling behind.
I think saying hitbox is not intuitive is BS when i first started playing on stick from pad it took me months to just be comfortable with doing simple things when i try to play on keyboard with asd and spacebar i find it pretty intuitive because i've played games on PC before and i'm used to this layout. Nothing is inherently intuitive it all depends on your past experiences and stickless layout isn't any harder than stick if you have played it as much as stick it has no drawbacks. However i don't think it should be banned the only thing i think that should be ban is anything other than SOCD neutral and i agree that devs should be the ones to put that in the game that way stickless layouts just have to send their raw inputs without any interpretation
You could ban use of whatever control you don't use on pad, ex if you use d pad then analog use isn't allowed I guess.
You and Aris really helped put some things into perspective. Thanks for the awesome videos, Brian. I don't give af at all about Street Fighter but you're a great content creator and resource for anyone who wants to get better at their games.
Don't they completely disagree?
@@Jack91790 Yes. Disagreements usually help an outside party (me in this instance) have more clarity because I get to see two different viewpoints and the common ground they might have.
SOCD stands for Simultaneous Opposing Cardinal Directions.
I find it kinda funny that the smash community is way past this conversation even tho leverless does way more ridiculous stuff when it replaces an analog stick. If you know how anal smashers are about good gamecube controllers and even they can embrace leverless controllers then it can't be that big of a deal for all the other fighting games out there.
Uhhh if you think the melee community is embracing boxes you’re wrong. People whine about it constantly.
It feels intuitive for people that have been playing games with wasd for all their lifes.
Gonna chime in. As someone who plays both, I totally agree with your assessment. I feel like playing fighting games with lots of motion inputs are OPTIMAL on stick. It's so much easier to move the lever to do a hadoken than it is to move my index, middle, and ring finger all together.
However, 3D fighting games like Tekken and Dead or Alive and Virtua Fighter, where there's not much motion inputs, hitbox is definitely better. Especially since movement matters so much more than execution.
Pad is the best of both worlds, but I had to stop playing pad since I would hurt my thumbs. Also, in Tekken, using the stick hurts my wrists, so it's more comfortable to just use my fingers. And in Street Fighter, well, I can't do half-circle inputs as well.
All in all, just play whatever is most comfortable for you. Don't listen to the haters.
I think a lot of people are floating around the Hitbox discussion not realizing we had this discussion YEARS ago when pad came out. First Guilty Gear local I ever went to I had people sneering at me when I expressed my surprise at the amount of stick players.
Funny how Melee also suffers from this controller controversy with the B0xx too. People are saying it's cheating and offers alot more than a regular controller but real thing is yeah, it might offer some advantages over a controller but at the same time simple things like angles and something as simple as pivoting is executionally harder. I switched to B0xx to be able to play Strive and Melee all on one controller. Just like with the B0xx in the Melee side, I don't think it should be banned even on the FGC side.
it honestly depends, ive seen people mod thier hitbox so they can move forward but still be charging back for charge characters
When SFV lets you double-tap down-forward to get a forward > down > down-forward input for DPs, you can't really claim that a controller is letting you "cheat your inputs".
I can see a future where SOCD options are the new turbo buttons. Personally I wish I could get used to Hitbox but personal preference about the button size has been keeping me on the good old stick, its funny how tribal people get about their input devices tho
SLIGHT correction brian. I looked up the rules again and it states for left right simul inputs:
"When both Right and Left directional keys are input at the same time, a controller must either maintain both of the inputs or abandon both."
didn't know cpt banned last input socd, but they did so while legalizing having NO socd...
WHICH IS HILLARIOUS BECAUSE NO SOCD ACTSL LIKE LAST INPUT FOR THE SAKE OF MOST CHARGE MOVES BECAUSE OF HOW THE GAME IS PROGRAMED XD IT MAKES NO SENSE
The only argument I can think of is that you can do charge moves literally a frame faster than on stick/pad since you can skip neutral, but Urien players having been skipping neutral for years and people ain’t say shit
Why is there such a debate around Hitboxes now, while it's been around for several years? Hard to not suspect that iDom's loss to a Hitbox player isn't one of the reasons behind that sudden interest on the matter. And I'm not putting the blame on iDom in case you're wondering, he took the L like the champion he is and didn't blame his opponent's controller. The twitter crowd however...
Its because its gaining popularity so people make more noise about it.
I just dislike it because half the videos on youtube and twitter boasting about em are directly sponsored and/or funded by them, it doesnt feel like I'm seeing a new advancement in controllers, it feels like I'm being advertised to, like a console comparison being sponsored by microsoft or sony.
Jokes on you Brine. Im a keyboard player. It was very intuitive to play hitbox. Greetings from EU
Brian, what made you choose the Hitbox over the Snack Box Micro? With the release of the Snack Box Micro XL would you still choose the Hitbox over it?
i think people from the arcade era do find it more intuitive and games are built around the physical design of a stick which does help but people who grew up with pad find that intuitive and now in poorer countries where pad is the premium option, people find keyboard more intuitive cause that's what they grew up with. it's almost like a funky love triangle of sorts that stick boomers are shitting on hitboxes for unfair advantage, poor pad users are envying stick cause they think that's the intended way to play fgs and the poorest in line, keyboard players in 3rd world countries think anything above is better while arguably using what's considered the most "superior" input option overseas which is all button at the end of the day, similar to hitbox. there is a component of hardware socd cleaning but it's not relevant to the mechanical advantage of shorter actuation time. people should understand there are pros and cons to all of these options and that there really doesn't have to be a financial gear gate for most people, because all button controllers are incredibly easy to build with open source firmware AND hardware nowadays. same goes for shoebox sticks, mechanical keyboards and well, pad is free if you own a console.
Idk, I’m a zoomer that started with pad and has tried hitbox as well, I just like stick the most 🤷♀️
@@Tomatonator stick also has a fun factor because of game design intentions targeting stick. i'd probably find it fun to play on as well after getting used to the lack of precision. big buttons and a big ol metal rod to waggle around sure sound inherently fun.
I swear to god there used to be the argument when consoles were starting to see fighting games come on different systems between pads and sticks where people would say a stick allowed you to piano buttons better so it was faster.
Cope this post was made by the keyboard clan
I made a hacked hit box some 10 years ago and I never even knew about all the stuff you could do with it until hitbox got big.
"If this is not how the game is meant to be played then the developers will have to develop around this" there are bans stages, bans some costumes, just in this game. in other games, there are character bans, strategies bans, items bans... and etc etc etc. "let the developers decide..." so First to 1 in every tournament
about the speed just remember Streetfighter IV in 3ds, very fast to "execute"
And also the examples with the control pads are also very weak. You can do it, but is so hard that the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense. The argument doesn't change in a control pad or stick you cannot do the same that you can in a hitbox
Also explain that while are you learning you have to think very deeply before executing, that happens to everyone when are learning a new technic, at the begging is hard to execute a dragon punch, but at some point, you just do it.
This one is a kind of weak argument but, I guess U.S.A citizens can afford them, but so f*cking expensive. In the U.S.A there are tournaments with prize money that maybe make sense to buy one, in other countries costs millions plus the money to travel to U.S, hotel, food, and Visa.
You can build one same as an arcade stick
Honestly if you haven’t been using your fingers like that from a young age, it’s very difficult. As a pianist you have a slight advantage
Let's face it, in every other type of e-sports, people can use modern devices. People don't play counter strike with the same devices in 2004 and in 2022 and that's ... normal. The stick is a very old device, not adapted anymore to the current games and is indeed inferior to the hitbox. It kinda hurts because most of stick players (including myself) are very proud to use this compared to any other objects/controllers. But sadly in a competitive game you can't blame people for using the best tools. So yeah hitbox is crazy good compared to stick but either stick with your current controller or change but do not complain.
Yes they do. The internals of the mouse and keyboard have changed a lot over that time spans but they are still a keyboard and mouse. They do allow tkl keyboards, and yes there’s rgb and stuff but for the most part if you took a Time Machine and gave those current keyboards and mouse to someone in 2004 they would be able to play just as well if not better with those tools.
I think the hitbox is a great alternative to the stick don’t get me wrong. I just don’t understand where you’re coming from here.
@@Ryan-go9wcHes coming from the fact many people complain and call a hitbox a "cheat box" because Avoid the Puddle and a couple other boomer fighter players called it cheap because its different from the stick they grew up with.
Basically, shut up and adapt, or shut up and leave. Its part of the ecosystem now so stop bitching.
I agree that a lot of the weird techniques that happen on Buttonbox are a software issue rather than a hardware one, and it does probably have something to do with input leniency, as well as more standardization in inputs (we don't often get wonky games with like the pretzel or the plus sign or the pentagram, even a lot of charge character's supers are being simplified to double qcf).
Input leniency is good but a lot of the ways it was programmed do seem to have the unintentional effect of advantaging Buttonbox inputs. For instance, how you can get a fireball motion with 2 6 and you can just skip the 3. On any "normal" control scheme the 3 would come out regardless and I believe that being able to miss it would make execution easier on Buttonbox. The "four frame super art" thing is only possible because you can skip the 3, yeah?
As Aris said, I am sure someone out there has Priority directions on their hitbox and is anyone policing them to check it? Im sure somoene's stick out there is Booming while blocking because they can hold two directions at once and no one out there policing and checking your hitbox if it can do it or not.
No. This is a boogeyman argument that is nigh impossible to actually achieve.
You do know you can do what your talking about pad???
Pad has no socd cleaning at all
If you use a elite pad and ps5 edge pad you can do any hitbox tech and have no socd cleaning
And also by that logic you can modify you stick to abuse socd
Well then you are going to have check sticks and pads too then. Modding controllers is not exclusive to leverless controllers.
Hitbox is a blessing to the FGC. Banning it would be insanity. Hitbox is basically a more comfortable keyboard.
Here's a big brain theory for all the Twitter theory fighters: Every controller gives a specific advantage and disadvantage.
And honestly the lack of consideration for accessibility options through control methods in this community is honestly disgusting. Some people simply have physical issues when using certain controllers. I play pad exclusive due to bad hand cramps when playing lever without a leveled surface to rest it on while my friend can't play pad anymore due to on going hand issues so he plays stick.
I agree that it is more of a software(devs dealing with it) problem than the controller itself. Fighting games are technically built around the fight stick, so it does make sense to say that it is the right way to play fighting games. But the thing is, arcades are no longer a thing(unless you're in Japan apparently) and that's not likely to change. So it is only natural that the tournaments/community and games being developed will have to adapt to the fact that the majority of people don't play the game the way they were initially "intended to be played", and that it is not feasible to force/expect people to use arcade sticks. So it is either let the fgc become even a more niche community with time, or adapting to the natural change of paradigm/controller
I love the faces you make when you are debating an argument that you consider borderline dumb hahahaha. Such a clever video, man.
I've played on pc keyboard for 2 years now and some stuff like half circles are HARD to do. But still, I just love it haha
People don’t take effort into account. You’re not “entitled to be equal” to the person that put 10000x time more into it than you did. It’s your ego speaking back to you to protect you stating something like: “It’s not you, Jimmy, nor this obviously more skilled person - it must be this inanimate object that cannot speak back”. This type of thinking sunk us into the Dark Ages.
Motion inputs were put in the game by the developers to balance moves. The fact that hitbox shortcuts let you circumvent this to an extent in ways that are both impossible on other input devices and not intended by the developers can be considered "cheating" (don't really like that word here because it's so emotionally charged, but you get the idea). Just because hitbox still requires practice/execuction and doesn't give you free wins doesn't mean this isn't a legitimate concern. I absolutely agree though that it's up do the devs to implement solution within the game rather than banning hitbox (it's actually what I use personally). The most logical solution like Brian mentioned would be to allow the game to handle SOCD in a way that doesn't allow for L+R=N shortcuts. Additionally, they could also tighten up input strictness for SF6 to be more in line with previous games since a lot of the hitbox shortcuts relay high input leniency to work. This would make a lot of sense considering SF6 is already going to have a modern control scheme for those who don't want to deal with motions. Moving forward, devs really need to be taking hitbox in consideration when balancing their games, because we're only going to see their adoption increase.
Except this isn't true. Because EVERYTHING(literally every single thing) that can be done on Hitbox can also be done on pad. So if pad is legal, Hitbox HAS to be legal by this logic. This argument only applies in the direct Hitbox/Stick comparison, but that's not the reality.
@@NessOnett8 Pad doesn't give you a neutral position when you input left and right at the same time.
@@dooberknob3947 It depends on whether the pad has socd cleaning or not. As far as I know, most of them don't, so it's up to the game you're playing to decide.
And either solution is equally strong. Some games default left + right to a neutral input (which most donkeys are complaining about), some default it to the last input. And you people don't even realize how good that would be either
It all boils down to one simple attitude that is dressed up with a plethora of excuses/accusations and that attitude simply is:
"I learned to play on stick and it took me X years, so you should have to as well, because i dont like how you can learn execute certain techniques more quickly than it took me to learn on stick".
People who cry about your controller should be banned 😎
Im a if your controller inputs 1 input per button you're good kinda guy
I don't really care for leverless controls, but I used a Hitbox a few years back and while it made some things downright trivial like Tekken movement, it made something as basic as a HCF/B command grab a challenge to pull off. I also play Soul Calibur and I just wasn't gonna do Ivy's grabs on that thing.
Regarding SOCD cleaning, I'd prefer if going forward opposite directions presses don't provide neutral input but rather cancels the input entirely e.g. while holding left and right, if you want a left input you need to let go of both and input left cleanly.
how is hcf/hcb hard? have you ever done a piano input?
@@joncliffmckinley5868 In the vid itself at around 10 mins Brain_F also shows that a basic Oro combo on stick becomes a challenge on Hitbox because of the HCB
Don't have it anymore so I couldn't give you more details than my impressions of using it a couple years back
This guy was brainwashed into thinking hitbox/pad is fair. It's insane that a faster input device is seen as fair just because beginners aren't going to be good with it. That's not the point at all, it's seeing competitors of a high skill level taking an easier route to victory and if the opponent has a different device it can destroy the integrity. The entire gameplay of blocking and moving is totally different with a device that requires less force to input what you want. These games are still clearly developed with an arcade with in mind if they weren't then SF6 would had been a completely different take on the franchise because it cannot survive being a 2D fighter if the arcade stick is not meant to be a main component during development.
But isn't street fighter 6's modern input also faster input. Are you saying that that isn't fair? SF6 has seen multiple tournaments, and a lot of top 8s dont use modern controls.
i know it's kinda irrelevant but it kinda reminds me about Rockets' James Harden and how he draws so many fouls and get free throws. he did that because he knew about the rules of the NBA and he find a way to kinda make it beneficial to his game (lets just say this is the rules for SOCD, and using leverless controller that is not against the rules)
Sure everyone called him "cheating" for all of those antics, but why didn't everybody also do what he does? because its not as easy as it looks to pull off what Harden did back then (transitioning from stick to leverless controller is not as easy as it looks)
But in the end, he still not win any championship because come playoff time refs start to let defender play more physical so Harden didn't get as many free throws as he did in regular season, and also other team also had better gameplan, better players on their roster, etc. (let's say how Harden get his free throws is the execution in fighting games, but execution alone won't get you far, sure having advantage on that is something, but in the end you still need footsies, mind games, etc to win against your opponent not just your execution)
And now NBA had changed the rules for this, and now Harden doesn't get that much free throws nowadays, does this mean the rules for SOCD also gonna change too in the future? who knows
sorry for bad english tho lmao
I'm new to the fighting game genre, but I just wanted to say that your discussion here is very thoughtful and nuanced. I appreciate your insistence on objective measurement as a core reason for banning something, your stance on leaving it up to the devs to account for inputs in the software, and the fact that you touched on ergonomics and accessibility. I developed repetitive strain injuries in both of my hands and wrists a few years back that took a long time to recover from, and I had to stop playing games entirely for a while, so the ergonomics of a game are a major concern for me.