An underappreciated but big advantage to leverless designs is the ergonomic differences. I have a metal rod and several pins in my wrist from a motorcycle accident, and it made using stick painful over long sessions for me. Because of the way you use a hitbox design, it has relieved my wrist pain and allowed me to play again without stopping every 30 minutes because I was hurting. A lot of other players with carpal tunnel and similar issues have echoed the sentiment. It's not more comfortable for everyone, but it's a big deal for a lot of us.
That's definitely something to keep in mind. I'd hate to see someone lose a tournament because they had to take a break every 30 minutes because they were in pain.
Ergonomics is the reason I've gone this route, too. I'm a filthy casual at any fighting game I play, but I like the option of being able to use a controller that doesn't hurt me.
Respectfully, while your story is very understandable, you are almost certainly an exceptional case. So should we use the exception and apply it to the majority?
@@willus259 Ok, then I'll ask you this. Across all gaming genres, competitive players will get the equipment or hardware needed (Better Monitor FPS, better Computers, better Internet et,c) to contribute to their gameplay. Why does FGC instead hold back others? Nothing is stopping anyone from getting this controller. The controller doesn't use macros, doesn't play the game for you, doesn't win fundamentals. So just because a niche sector of competitive players refuse to relearn the game using a different controller from what they like/approve, should we hold back the majority from using an option that is better for gameplay and better for players wrists?
This is the kind of content I subscribed for. I understand the need to keep up with the drama but pieces like this are the bread and butter of the channel, in my humble opinion.
yeap dunno why they stick to much with twitch streamers 🤑🤮 same thing why i sub here, fgc content were great and there's a lot of past event in the community and yet no updates
It's not really so crazy. If your inputs are slower by, say, 2-3 frames, that's the same has having 30-50 more ms of ping in a shooter. Let's say you want to do something like dash under a jumping opponent on reaction and hit them as they land from behind. That jump might take something like 1/2 a second, or 30 frames. The limit of reaction speed is generally around 15 frames, but that's only for a really simple reaction like "click your mouse when the screen goes from red to green." Meanwhile in fighting games numerous situations can arise at a moment's notice. So your opponent jumps. If you weren't expecting this jump or ready to react to it, chances are likely that you're not going to counter it and will instead block or try to go for a simpler AA option. But let's assume that you were expecting it, at a base minimum it's going to take you around 15 frames to even register that the jump is happening and to start inputting commands. Then you add the time it takes to actually input those commands, which is one area where the hitbox can have a significant advantage, and the time it takes for your character in the game to actually do the action once you've completed the input. The difference of 2-4 frames can mean the difference between successfully getting under and past the opponent's jump attack, leaving them open to be countered, or reacting too late and getting hit.
@@AirLancer man, i'm not even gonna pretend i understand half of what you're saying, i'm as casual a gamer as they come, i just enjoy watching e-sports... but regarding that 2-3 frames window, asuming that the game is running with 60 FPS animation, that's like 33-50 milliseconds, an average human blinks at 1/10th of a second which is like 2-3 times slower than the window you are talking about, that's not normal in any given metric... but i guess i kinda understand, like playing an FPS game using keyboard/mouse vs controller, you can move significantly faster with the cardinal directions with a keyboard than a controller's analog stick
The idea is very simple lets use F1 racing as an example. In the beginning all F1 cars use manual stick shift, later on semi automatic paddle shift is introduce, now paddle shift is the normal. It still took about 6 years for the entire racing industry to accept that Paddle shift is more effcient than Manual Stick Shift. At it each shift, it only reduces fraction of second reaction time, over the course of whole race that become minutes. If one day mind control input is developed for video game, we will also realize Keyboard and mouse is the less ineffcient way of operation. The community is only angry, because they need to adpot to new ideas and that means what they perfected before is loosing effectiveness. Keyboard/Mouse vs Controller on FPS is a bit different, because the fact most Controller FPS game introduce Aim Assit, it is just simply less accurate on a controller. Some game does not require as much accuracy, that is when controller win.
@@haoye2413 yeah, that'll be very relatable because your average person drive F1 racers on a daily basis... but on that point, while i don't have experience driving F1, i do drive have experience with paddle shifters and manual transmissions... paddle shifters vs manual stick is different though, of course paddle shifters are more efficient since you don't have to clutch and you don't have to take your hands off the wheel to move your hands towards the stick, so the time difference from pulling the paddle to stepping on the clutch while physically moving the gear stick are several seconds, while the controllers have time differences in the milliseconds 2-3x faster than blinking, so you really cannot compare them like that and you really can't make a case with a theoretical mind-control input controllers, since like you said it hasn't been invented and the lateral movement on the keyboard does make a difference, for example there are games like cyberpunk 2077 where you need to double input a direction button on the keyboard to make a quick step vs doing a double input in a joystick or clicking the L3 button first before going to a direction, it's much faster on a keyboard
@@jervey123 See its not that crazy, you are fully aware that milliseconds of control difference actually make a huge difference. You highly underestimate your awareness skill.
From an ergonomic perspective, when you move a joystick, your wrist and even your arm need to coordinate. Additionally, the force exerted on the joystick also affects the entire controller, especially when you operate it on your lap, it's difficult to avoid side effects. The advantage of operating a Hitbox is that you can control the direction solely through finger movement and pressing, which greatly simplifies the control process and avoids the side effects caused by the movement of the wrist, arm, body, and the controller.
That's incredibly wrong. The main difference between pad, stick box and hit box is apm. On pad you are using 2-4 fingers. On stick box you are using wrist + 3-5 fingers On hit box you are using upto 10 fingers depending on model and preferences. Obviously max apm is not even comparable to each other. And the only problem - the more fingers you are using the harder is it to coordinate them - but that solves easily with practice.
This isn't really true. In theory what you said makes sense, but often times good players aren't mashing all the way to the far ends of their sticks. On top of this, because of how sticks are designed, it's more of *either* shoulder or wrist, not necessarily both. On top of that the buttons are so big that even if you do mash your stick into the gate, there's no chance you miss or reduce your timing accuracy
@@bruhmaxxer In terms of technical advantages I agree keyboard matches Hitbox. But WASDing is terrible for your hands in terms of how much you have to “pinch” your hands into a smaller space. This is not as significant an issue in other games where inputs/second on the MOVEMENT controls is far lower (other genres have stuff like high mouse inputs/second so people develop carpal tunnel on their right hand for example). Besides, a mouse isn’t natively on a Hitbox, making that comparison is daft. You CAN remap the keys to be further apart on a keyboard, but even then most keyboards have terrible thickness that make you have to put more effort to press compared to bespoke Hitbox/Hitbox-like controllers and at that point if you have money investing in a controller is better for you.
@@meathir4921 ALSO the reason why PC gamers DONT use a hitbox for the movement in other games is because you need a fuck ton more keys in quick access than just movement. You could get an MMO mouse to compensate, but yeah. You're out you're fucking mind.
I have been playing SF4 on a Keyboard since 2009( WASD+Numpad Layout) and whenever I told people Keyboard is THE MOST OP controller you can have, they all just laugh and now everyone is riding the bandwagon more than a decade later. 😪😪 I've got some combos and matches uploaded, so u can see execution is not the part where I fail much.
To be fair there’s a lot of differences between a keyboard and the box. The main difference here is that The buttons on the box are more responsive and and better for executing frame perfect moves. Also the alignment of keys on a keyboard or less ergonomic then how the buttons are set up on the box. Also since you only need a certain amount of buttons they can be larger than keys and therefore easier to hit in rapid succession.
@@coasterthekid8867 I agree with everything except by the part about hitboxes being more responsive. If you use a mechanical keyboard with linear switches (e.g. Cherry MX red switches) it's going to be very fast as the same level as a sanwa button.
You can either fully restrict the players to the exact same controllers and have them specified, supplied, serviced, secured, and supervised by tournament organizers, or you can leave the input choices completely up to the players use whatever input devices and control schemes they wish. The space between those two extremes will always be filled with players trying to bend and break the rules to their advantage, and the further you go into the murky waters in between, the harder it becomes to consistently and completely enforce whatever rules you have in place, making fair competition impossible This goes not just for fighting games, but for EVERY competitive video game that depends on reflex and skill, including FPS games, racing games, MOBAs, and RTS
Its crazy how many ppl get upset over input devices like hitbox when pads are VERY similar to hitbox. Legit just swipe left thumb over d pad and hit a button. Guess that means ppl should start arguing for a ban against everything except a stick
I've been using ;=up /=down .=left '=right and asd=light-to-heavy punch zxc-light to heavy kick since the mid 90s. It's interesting to me how keyboards have gone from being derided as an inferior input device to arcade sticks to now being labeled as cheating. I'm surprised it took this long for people to figure out the limits of the stick compared to key's/buttons for directional input.
I love how articulate Aris sounds when you catch him at the right moments. Whenever he's educating his chat and not yelling at them the dude lets slip how wise he really is lol.
Based reimu enjoyer. Also, interesting how much more complex the issue became in the Smash scene than in the general FCG. Most fighting games only register 8 directions but Melee cares about the full range and easy access to perfect full length wavedashes or other angle dependent tech could be unfair. Hax basically wrote a freaking PhD thesis to explain the angles he gave the B0XX access to.
Last Input Priority seems to have the most advantage. Hold back button without releasing it and just push the front button + punch button anytime to perform a sonic boom.
That’s why guile is my new fave ever since I got a hitbox. I used to hate charge characters but sonic booms and flash kicks are so easy now. There’s even a unique thing that happens in SF6 on hitbox that when you press up + kick twice after a knee bazooka it will do a lvl 1 super without needing to charge.
It's really interesting how fighting games are a bit like F1 racing where we're trying to optimize as much as humanly possible to where 2-4 frame inputs are a massive advantage due to the inherent nature of stick/pad needing to travel.
Another unspoken advantage is how much better hitboxes are for your wrists compared to a stick. I think that's a good thing though, why should you risk carpal tunnel with a stick that's not as ergonomically sound if you do want to play fgs in the long run?
For me it's always the hand controlling the buttons that starts to hurt first My right hand when using a Fight Stick, and my left when using Mouse and Keyboard I don't think it's better for your wrists at all. I've heard or plenty of people who started to develop carpeltunnel after swapping to HitBox
@@HeavyMetalLink05 It depends on your posture. If you are leaning your hand on the base of the hitbox you'll probably have the same wrist issues as stick. You have to hover your hand over the buttons. Then you should be able to play for hours without pain.
excellent video guys you only missed one point, a hitbox / keayboad is more gentle to the wrist and other joints and ligaments in the hand, that is also a reason why some people choose hitbox even if they are not hardcore competitive players
@@jorge86rodriguez well it's much better than if i use a gamepad.. since i'm a dpad user, the base of my left thumb hurts like a b*tch after 30 minutes of playing 😔. Man, aging sucks..
this is another factor that's overlooked, Daigo is like 40 now, do people really think this mans wrists will last another 15-20 years playing competitively on a standard arcade joystick.
This whole time I could have been playing fighting games on my PC with a keyboard lol. I thought the keyboard was inferior but this hit box is basically a streamlined keyboard.
I'm glad you brought up that some inputs are easier on stick. Goldlewis in strive was entirely designed with stick in mind, playing him on box is very counter intuitive. Not saying its impossible, it's just far less natural.
The problem is though that there are some things that ONLY the Hitbox can do that other types of controllers can't. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom / Flash Kick (from Street Fighter) when done correctly on a Hitbox, will ALWAYS come out faster than on a normal arcade stick (It's one of the reasons Daigo likes using it so much.) So while both a Hitbox and an arcade stick are both physical inputs, the Hitbox just straight up has an advantage that other controllers don't.
@@NoPingAndy you can do the same thing on ps4 controller, in fact the ps4 controller actually has access to way more shortcuts than a hitbox, but no one complains about that because complaining about something that gives only a very slight and marginal advantage is stupid
@Taylor Whiteside Idk about Tekken; movement is so core and so input intensive that I could see Hitbox being either amazingly strong or extremely weak for it (since the movement tech was developed with stick in mind). In most traditional 2D fighters where movement is not as intense as Tekken, most anything a Hitbox player can do a pad player has access to too (I mean, SonicFox is a pad player and is a top competitor in like 4 different modern 2D fighters).
Bro 14:33. Imagine a world where the hitbox is outclassed by the guitar hero controller. EVO 2030, all players have modded their guitars so light is strum down and heavy is up. The finals two players are duking it out by making sick riffs on their guitars as sonic booms and hadoukens fly across the big screen
People who call them cheatboxes are just mad that they are the optimal way to play fighting games and they have to toss aside 20 years of stick memory.
@@lampad4549keyboard and dpad have been around the whole time so why would simply making a better design be so bad? Shouldn't people be developing better ways to play not artificially locking themselves with worse methods?
@@iBlueClovr Technically, the game developers themselves have also tried to simplify the inputs for casual players, like simply pressing a direction and a button can pull off a special move. An argument can be made that continually modding the controllers is just another way of simplifying the inputs even if there's a learning curve.
i think if a controller it self is different enough to define a meta and spark controversy. then a standard should be set for tournaments as easy as that, also it should be standard anyways because tournaments shouldn't have situations where you blame the hardware should be even and putting skill against one another not on who has a better set up or who spent more money.
It's kinda ironic how for decades these games were only made with sticks and gamepads in mind, and noone cared how it would play on a keyboard. Until it turned out that a keyboard is better even in games like these LOL
@@guyfauks2576 I never said "gaming". Actually, I get better executions on my cheap generic membrane keyboard over my much more expensive mechanical one.
If you want to try a new controller, here are the best advantages I found in some of them: - Stick: good for circular (half circle, full circle, 180°, 1080°, etc.) and clean inputs. - d Pad: fast, smooth and silent movement. Personally I think Z motion is easier too. - Hitbox: save your wrist and thumb.
The funny thing is he mentioned cork bats and we now know that cork bats don’t help that much. The weight change may lead to faster swings, but less velocity off the bat. Obviously hit boxes actually give an advantage,
i actually disagree, and they highlighted this in the video as well. You cannot input a half circle input as fast on a hitbox than you can on a joystick. Which means fighting game characters that have inputs close to each cardinal direction will always be better on a joystick. A joystick is used in military fighter jets for this very reason. Additionally to repeat an input means you have to hit the same button twice, while with a joystick you can hold/spin and even roll directionally and it is automatically using multiple inputs. The only major difference outside of the obvious of using opposite cardinal directions for combos on a hitbox, is the level of precision under any circumstance to not miss an input which the hitbox does not punish you for compared to the stick.
@@bipolarminddroppings To be fair, that's potentially down to the fact that Baseball is such a momentary and exact sport at the MLB level that having a bat you're not used to ruins your muscle memory and makes you worse at swinging. A third of your time to react to the pitch is lost to your brains reaction time. You essentially have just enough time to think "yes" or "no" when a fastball is thrown at 98mph. You don't have time to adjust your swing mid pitch. So using a different bat messes up the incredibly precise muscle memory you've built up, meaning any potential advantage from a cork bat is ruined by the fact you're mis hitting most of the time now.
I've literally always used keyboard to play fighters. Keyboards still aren't allowed in any competitions which is why I never go to or care about them. A controller is a controller
What wasn’t explained was that the gafrobox that Daigo got banned with had duplicated buttons. And that most board people use in hitbox especially brook boards have socd cleaning already on the board. No one is using zero delay usb boards for hitbox because of their input delay.
What I think people use more hitbox is because back then arcade stick can be expensive they only can afford keyboard as an alternative but consider that there's a controller called mixbox (which is hitbox with keycaps) people took this more because arcade button has very precise input
I'm pretty big on peripherals and am an Azeron user. I own a mayflash arcade stick with the Sanwa parts. I do recognize that hitbox is clearly superior and would perhaps prefer to use one, but I decided to stick to the stick for the sake of gaining arcade skills. If I'm traveling about and come across an arcade machine I want to be proficient at using it.
hitbox is not superior its broken that's why it exists. keyboards also should never have been a viable peripheral for fighting games even on pc. being able to physically press socd in a fighting game breaks the game and the way the inputs are meant to be received. other wise they would have used all button cabinets from the creation of 1v1 fighting games like streetfighter and others like it but wen they tested it they found they needed to use a stick. and home consoles of the time for sness sega playstation what have you they all have a physical pivot under the d-pad to make it impossible to press socd on the D-pad because it breaks most games that use the d-pad if you can press socd.
@@KaneA87 go try twist someone else words. my stance and what i said is very clear. do what ever mental gymnastics you have too to try convince yourself its not cheating i guess. breaking the game is cheating. hitbox is cheating.
To be fair, the HitBox is more ergonomically sound compared to a bat-top stick on top of the travel time. Also, if you were to remove the stick, you'd find, underneath on the control deck, four dip-switch buttons attached to the base of that stick. I see it as there's room for both control schemes. People should be free to pick which of the two they feel is right for them.
Gonna be interesting to see how fightsticks develop to keep up. We already have the crossup and things such as the antagonist (which i believe is shown at 13:13) help to combat the travel time differences. There's also stuff like the anklegator where you can have physical macros so I'm excited to see how it develops
You forgot to add a very important Aris clip, but let me quote it: "If it were up to me even pads would be banned and everyone will play on arcade sticks". I am also of that opinion, but alienating pad/hitbox/keyboard players is impossible. Hitbox will be the near future unfortunately. I've played on stick for more than 10 years now and the advantage in some games of being able to block much faster than an arcade stick player (ESPECIALLY online) is gigantic. An example would be a Milia player in guilty gear rev 2 running at you and pressing 2K. That thing comes at you so fast that sometimes my boomer hands can't even block on time. All in all I am of the opinion that fighting games should be played on levers, because that's how they were designed, but it sucks when it goes in the different direction of "who will bend the rules the most". Maybe if they made arcade sticks cheaper this wouldn't be such a problem, but it is what it is.
15:30 - Shows what that guy knows. Corked bats are illegal, but they actually make it harder to hit home runs - in spite of what people say. (Mythbusters addressed this)
honestly i think that a hitbox allows for more accessibility for people , like i have wrist problems and controller and arcade stick both hurt my wrist and hand but i am fine using a keyboard so something like a hitbox seems great for me as its just a super simplified keyboard
I play fighting games on keyboard, pretty much for this reason. A lot of inputs are just easier to do, I can just type out my quarter circles and such rather than spinning a stick around wildly. I’m sure if I practiced with stick I’d get decent with it, but why do that when keyboard is just fine
I believe it will come sooner rather than later. The new generation uses gamepad and kb playing games. And without the influence of older people they wouldn't touch a joystick. Look at sonicfox and punk. They use gamepad. And they are now considered Old players.
@@badassgenevideos its a generational thing, oldheads grew up with arcades and sticks, newer gens grew up with consoles and pad, the newest gen is probably growing up with pc and mnk more than pad so i think we'll see people adapting their keybinds to a hitbox style layout if possible, fightsticks will never leave the greater fgc canon but i think we'll start to see more new kids learning on mnk because they dont have the money for a pad or stick, and the pros will slowly move over to hit boxes if they remain legal because of the familiarity of stick style inputs
The older generation of games were all arcade ports, so there was a strong logic behind using a lever. The newer generation games are mostly straight to console(Tekken 7 and the 1st version of SF4 were really the last bastions). They're made with consideration to the fact that most people will be using a Pad, so that makes a huge difference. Sticks won't be going anywhere because they're fun, but I think from a strictly competitive standpoint they'll be going more the way of "The only guy who shows up all Natty at the Mr. Olympia contest" at least at the Elite of Elite level where every single /ms makes a difference.
You could already play the games on keyboards. A Hitbox is just a more ergonomic keyboard, tbh. I moved to a hitbox just because I couldn't do on the arcade stick stuff like hyper-jump, or dashes that required opposite direction swapping, only on a pad, and by flicking it. I'm not a competitive player of fighting games, but it just allows me to actually play with the intended moves while not using a keyboard that is cumbersome. Though I recall playing Mortal Kombat 1/2 on a keyboard way back when :D
@@JayceCH. Many PC players are cheaters, the sphere is rampant with them. Lots of legit players to tho. With that said, until guards for things like multi-directional holding where implemented, playing on Keyboard was cheating, no different then Hitbox. You had access to a controller that let you do things completely unintended by the developers because your input method wasn't ever supposed to be used in the first place.
@@JayceCH. there is a reason why competitions separate keyboard + mouse players from controller players, it is cheating to play with a keyboard and a mouse from a controller perspective, that's just simple fact, nothing stupid about it at all, you should educate yourself better before speaking...
As someone who started playing fighting games on a keyboard, then switching to pad and eventually investing in a traditional stick. I feel like leverless controllers are the perfect evolution as they don't hurt my hands and inputs feel more precise and less unintuitive to new players.
In a fighting game the less mistake you make the more easier to win, by using hitbox you reduce your input error leading you to more easier combos and even greater precision compared to stick. So playing with a hitbox is riding a faster safer bike with training wheels, while playing with a stick is like riding a slower and more inefficient bike.
Not being able to input your controls safely sounds to me like a fundamental issue in itself. Standards of engineering are built upon not letting the user make mistakes.
This is similar to things in speed running (like using an nes controller). Being able to press two buttons is something that is left to TAS, but people aren’t doing it because physically you cannot on the controller.
People refuse to understand that exact point: doing things that you can't on a regular controller like pressing 2 opposite directions at the same time.
If you look at the history of golf, there are tons of "eras" when it comes to the equipment that was used. Almost every generation had an argument whether it was about golf clubs, balls, outside tools, etc being considered "cheating". This feels no different and people and rules will change and adapt accordingly.
But those new technologies are objectively better and don't fundamentally change the mechanics of the game if players are on the same course. The difference between a control stick and buttons might as well be different games entirely.
It’s cheating because the people using levers are mad that you don’t want to spend months building muscles memory with a stick that you’re only ever going to use for fighting games
It's cheating because these games are literally designed around an arcade stick control scheme and you have real competitive advantages using this instead. Stop being dishonest.
@@Ilovevidgames123 How is it designed around an arcade stick? Just because the games used to be released in arcade? Why don’t people who play stick switch to hitbox then?
@@michaeldominy5526 Yes. Many still are released in arcades first. Do you not know anything about the history of fighting games? Lmao They are switching, in droves. Wtf are you talking about? The only sense in which it could be said that they're not switching, is in the sense that the switch has already happened. Pls, ffs, approach this argument honestly. Quit trying to write it off as just snobs wanting to gatekeep people new to fighting games or people with hand-/wrist-/motor skills-related conditions. It's fucking not, and you ought to be honest enough to acknowledge that.
@@Ilovevidgames123It's quite funny since that argument doesn't apply because every fighting game nowadays is officially released on pc and the default control scheme is keyboard. But that and, just because it wasn't designed in mind, doesn't mean it's cheating. People have played on things like guitar hero controllers, wheels, custom arduinos, etc. On top of games like Street Fighter, because they weren't made with Keyboard in mind, you have inputs that are more difficult with precise controls when they expected you to roll your joystick.
@@StaminaLoss And you think release of contemporary fighting games on PC means it's designed for PC? You realize that the inputs commonly used for special moves even in modern fighting games were devised when fighting games only released on arcades, and that many contemporary fighting games still release in arcades before console and PC release, right? Lol, jfc. You people really have no idea what you're talking about. Fighting games weren't designed for the inputs of moves to be as easy as possible. The joystick requiring movement and thus not making directional inputs as easy as they are with buttons is an integral part of the strategy of fighting games, not an arbitrarily-erected obstacle to it. Walking forward is *supposed* to involve that split-second more's commitment and difficulty to go to back or down-back to reaction-block. That's *intentional*, as are many, many more tactical considerations born of the execution requirements of typical fighting game inputs.
i play tekken on controller on the d-pad, and it HURTS my hands after just like 5 minutes, so i swapped to keyboard, and it was much easier but it just felt weird since either the corners of my laptop were constantly stabbing into my arms or i had to raise my hands in a weird way, then i swapped to a hitbox with a keyboard design, and i must say, that was such an amazing swap
Quite frankly, fighting game tournament should be using arcade cabinets instead of monitors and controllers. Major tournaments are sponsered by large developers like Capcom and SNK so having custom made, reusable, cabinets for the players to use would ensure fairness as all players are using the same controllers, ensuring that skill is the deciding factor and not technological advantages.
The "legacy games won't get patched" thing seems so simple to solve, in the same way that anti-cheat software would handle it. If any competitive environment requires software to be installed that interprets the SODC a certain way and this is what is then transmitted to the game, then wouldn't that instantly standardise whatever rule they choose to adopt for all legacy games?
Many long-time stick players are developing health issues with their left hand. Hitbox (and physical therapy) can allow them to play again. Players that replace their stick with a hitbox now may even be preventing future hand injury without ever knowing it.
After many many years on classic lever, I finally bought a hitbox. It takes time to get used to it, but just for hitting those diagonals and shortcuts it's worth it.
I love the cork bar analogy. Well put. As for myself, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get past the inherent “unintuitiveness” of the leverless controllers and I’m a 09er fightstick guy till I die. With that being said, the HB Cross|up completely outclasses the traditional fightstick in every way imaginable. If you play on arcade style controllers there’s 0 reason not to use a crossup. This product (and its layout’s form factor) brings sticks to more even terms with pads and leverless when considering each input method’s perceived advantages over the other.
Coming from a card game background. Just make nostalgic arcade game stick format for those that want to play. And then The regular competitive scene can be dominated by the meta
Everyone is saying they should have different leagues. What they should do is implement new game design. Have some characters who are better and easier to play with a hitbox, and others who are better with a stick (720s and stuff).
Essentially they need to figure out a standard way that commands can be input, period. That means once again going back to side by side identical inputs. No programming button combos( it eliminates an entire layer of possibly incorrect inputs) hit box multiple inputs and instead of 4 directions buttons increase it to 8 doing a dragon punch that’s three button presses, or d,df,f on a dpad ot stick simple. Either Everyone is equal or use whatever the hell you want.
I really hope sticks dont vanish. I played with basically all controller types but stick is by far my favorite one, it feels way too damn satisfying in order for me to give it up. In my opinion nothing can compare to the pure joy of perfectly nailing an input with the stick.
as someone who used a stick for 3 years because every pro was using it i dont get this how does it feel satisying? all your doing is moving the stick would the same apply to dpad on a pad? or what about the new hitbox?
@@deathbringer9893 I wish I could explain it bettee but there is just something about the feel of the stick itself, when I'm using it I really feel "Yes these games where made with this controller in mind". All the motions are very intuitive on the stick. It just feels right to use, and while a Hitbox also has satisfying buttons to push, I really miss the feel a stick provides when I'm using one. D pad just feels kinda weird to use. It is fully functional and was the controller I first played on, but even back then before I ever touched a stick I felt that something felt wrong playing like that. It's kinda like how I wouldn't play something like Devil May Cry on Keyboard and Mouse those games feel right with a controller, or how I would never play first person shooters with a controller, because those feel best with Mouse and Keyboard
Pretty sure that it will vanish soon™, but at least arcade stick boomers and retro gamers will make it alive as long as possible. Have fun while it last!
Spent my post Mortal Kombat Trilogy years playing fighting games on PC, so... "Hit boxes" were always kind of a thing. From my experience though, hit boxes do give more precise directional input but the timing requires more practice than a traditional controller or joystick. You can screw up inputs just as easily on a hit box if your fingers are even a little off.
It depends on where you see the skill of gameplay. Is it on how the stick is waggled or is it on understanding and reacting to what's happening in the game itself? Personally im of the view that simpler and more accessible controls level the playing field externally to raise the level of competition within the game itself.
I think this argument falls apart as soon as you introduce the fact that you can use a keyboard to play these games. A hitbox is functionally not much different from a keyboard with most of its keys ripped out. If you're so convinced that playing on a hitbox gives you a competitive advantage, buy a damn hitbox. If you don't think you should have to change what you're doing to compete, you don't understand competition. I'm not about to go look-up prices but does a hitbox cost considerably more than a fightstick? My gut says they should be about equal. Meaning you aren't being asked to take on any more financial burden based on which one you use, so it doesn't create entry barriers that aren't already there. The people against these things honestly just sound butt hurt that they learned the old way and don't want to have to learn a new way.
Exactly. Every sport is about taking advantage of situations when they are presented, as fair as posible. If the games were not designed to br played with such controllers, its the games fault. Period.
This argument falls apart when you actually know the difference. Equating it to a average keyboard which is still banned in some tournaments is nonsensical. It's a basic fact you can buffer and input moves a controller or stick can't do. Talking about your 5 dollar keyboard to dismiss it ignores the point. A very expensive mechanical keyboard will still be an advantage if it had enlarged and responsive buttons.
@@TheRockemsockm I don't remember saying anything about the quality of keyboard. I didn't know keyboards are sometimes banned, that matters a bit. But the bedrock issue is, if you think it's the best, why aren't you using it? How is that different from a golf pro showing up to a pro tour without a putter then claiming it wasn't fair everyone else was using one?
@@TheRockemsockm The video pretty much explains its not the players' fault for using a hitbox. Its the devs fault because now they decided to work on fixing issues they never forsaw or straight up ignored all these years. But you do you, I guess
Exactly, it's like when rally cars became AWD, the meta changed and to stick to RWD would mean losing. At the end every car company adapted to the change
This video needs a update because the FGC wanted to ban custom fight sticks but the fighting game as of now are useing simple input mechanics for they new fighting game’s basically like the controllers
using the hitbox makes characters created for using joystick like guile with charging moveset is why hitbox is considered cheating. It allows you execute charge attacks without the constraints of the joystick inputs , which the charging ability is based on with said constraints of using joystick. It makes those characters like guile god tier by allowing the execution of charge attacks split second like when the AI is playing as Guile.
There are things you can do with Hitbox that you cant do with Pad and Joystick. Making Fighting Games have another barrier to entry will kill this genre off for good.
you could just code the neutral position between a down and up input, or in other words a basic pause between directional inputs for opposing directions with 2-3 frame time window. would disarm all the advantage the hitbox give and make it fair...it should no problem for future games, and inputs are the bread and butter of fighting games...so a good one, with ambition to competition should have this.
“Why do people think using this controller is cheating? Because it is, you can do things with Hit Box type controllers that you can’t do with a regular stick, like holding back, down, an down back at the same time, this works wonders for charge characters and it guarantees you never miss a dragon punch.
The dude literally says it gives him an advantage to do things that he wouldn't normally be able to do. How is that not seen as cheating? It's like saying a Gameshark isn't cheating just because it's a peripheral doesn't mean that it should be legal
I feel like this conversation needs to include input buffers. I'm mostly familiar with Guilty Gear, and I've used an Odin (basically WASD instead of a lever) but primarily use a lever/joystick. In Strive, the buffer is so large that doing, say a DP or a Flash Kick out of block stun or on wakeup is done instantaneously no matter the controller used. Now in a game like Xrd or other older games with a much tighter buffer window, you might be in a position where you're in neutral instead of holding a direction, but in modern games I think it's more or less a wash with certain exceptions. Other improvements, like a dash macro, also reduce any advantage a button box might have.
I have seen literal hospital beds at FGC tournaments and other interesting folk participating. It is only good to allow as many controllers as we can so not one person is sidelined. I even hear that FGC devs are beginning to take steps to even include the blind. The day when existence is all that is needed to play a fighting game will be a beautiful day.
Y’all think your community is small, go out in public and ask ANY gamer if they like driving games. There’s a lot on TH-cam, but I never actually meet them. Inclusion is bullshit if seemingly no one actually cares about what you like.
Yeah, but there are obviously also limits. You can't just wish your way into a win without skill. Execution will always be a part of fighting games or other E-Sports. If you don't like pressing buttons or moving sticks, play chess.
It's an interesting debate, being able to input more movements within a controllers polling window or eliminate travel time of a stick is a huge is a huge deal at the highest level of play. I don't think they should be banned though, most of us cling to sticks as the games originated in cabinets with the same controls. Three decades later, the vast majority of the FGC will never see the latest games in cabinets, only home consoles/computers. Stands to reason that it's a natural evolution of it's user base.
It gives a bigger advantage for sure but, everyone these days can get one however I think for the pro leagues in these fighting games should only limit to approved controllers/arcade sticks.
it's funny how many people bought gamepads to play fighting games on PC saying keyboard was bad, people doing mods on dualshock controllers using the LPT1 port on pc too, way back in the mid 2000's, then the arcade stick revolution started and everyone was buying those, now everyone is getting button boxes, even building their own since it's so easy, and a hitbox is basically a keyboard, so keyboard was the actual meta in the late 90's early 2000's i didn't have a gamepad so i played a bunch of fighting games on emulators using keyboard (using the arrow keys for movement) and it felt just fine, i played online through kaillera (who's old enough to remember that?), finally people are discovering how efficient an all button controller can be
Games just need to start adding a "hitbox" config in their joystick configs. Have 2 sets of move inputs, one for hitbox, one for joystick. Problem solved. I'm sure the game companies could add different commands to hitbox that make moves more laggy. Imagine if hadouken required a "double button press" for a hitbox controller only. That would solve a lot of issues.
Another factor that I'm coming to grips with now is disability that Hitbox might just be what I'll need to keep playing and enjoying fighting games. I've always been a 6-face button gamepad player for SF and honestly have only been able to perform well on SC2 with a fight stick. It was never a lack of wanting to use it, I just never was able to develop the speed i had on controller with a fight stick. Now that I've developed MS, I'm starting to see a delay in the reaction time for my hands in general. I've become rather curious about the potential of seeing if a hitbox lets me try to regain my speed playing these games. The alternative unfortunately is for me to never be able to play fighting games again...and that's not something I'm ready to do.
It feels weird to me that they would deny the use of hitbox, when pad controller already got the same thing. each button for each input is fine to me. you still have to reach each button 1 by 1, and having to input everything manually Personally, a stick is a relic that's pretty inefficient for sending inputs like 236X or 214X. If you think about it, a stick is just a cluster of 4 directional buttons, making the travel time to each button inefficient, especially inputs like 228: instead of just 228, you must go through 25258, on hit box, you just 2528 hit box just separates that cluster into 4 buttons to reduce the travel time. and if you're concerned about blocking in both direction, there're already solutions for that. What would be cheating is when you have multiple buttons that does the same thing (like 4 buttons for A, but in different layouts), when they could have multiple "shortcuts" for each string of input. like top row for Super #1, and 2nd row for Super #2, etc.
Its like WSAD in keyboard but a little tweak. Its not cheating as long as there is no macro key like an 1 input can make special move. Ex. Back, forward,down forward +AB = 1 input
Hitbox is ok but it can be a doorway to cheating. So official rules should be 1 input = 1 command. 1 button for left, 1 button for right, 1 button for down and so forth.
Very interesting. I'm just an average player of SF and still use a joystick and arcade stick also. But seeing this hotbox got me thinking about the charge characters. Been able to do left and right at the same time sounds great. But yeah it's kinda cheating. Just an opinion.
So this is like using Keyboards for fighting games?? It's kinda hard too when doing circular motions, or semi-circular motions, like: Tekken's Jack "circular motion where he counts" or Akuma's Mesatsu Gohado (qcf,qcf 1+2). Your fingers are gonna hurt or will get tired for the long time. Can you even play a King of Fighters game with it's wierd motion controls?? Why I think I wanna buy a Joystick. Unless this thing isn't like a keyboard??
Yeah its evidently the money talked, especially from these controller companies. 2-3 frame advantage is HUGE, there are characters who become strong even at 1 frame advantage. Just because they can do that poke or fast punch attack and be safe from retaliation. The charge characters, the 360 or 720 degree grab characters, this is HUGE for anyone who wants to play the game in any competive game, they gain FAR more than 3 frame advantage. Another big thing is the jump button on the hitbox, because you can press it with 2nd hand, just thinking the combinations you can do with it. At least the pros accept that its stronger and have no delusions why its stronger. At this point anyone who doesnt use it is in a disadvantage.
@@gintokisan5171 I play on both keyboard and stick and I just can't get the people that say motion inputs are hard on a keyboard. You're literally just typing "SDSD" or "SASA" for 2qcfs if you're playing on a keyboard.
@@nida4602 I do play +R but not SNK. I can do the inputs with a hitbox as consistently as I do in stick, even better at times. But, I learned to play instruments since I was a kid so maybe that factors in when it comes to finger independency? And I play "ASD" and "Space" on a keyboard instead of "WASD" , so maybe that's why it's easier and doesn't feel cramped.
There is a accessibility issue here too. Some people would have an easier time controlling the game over a pad or stick. And communities, particularly niche communities with hard-molded opinions, are afraid of change. The Hitbox is a far more efficient control scheme that can be used by people who have issues with controllers or sticks, but the fear of change is what holds back innovation. The Asteroid is coming. Be the Dinosaur, or the little Rat.
I think sticks are way cooler. But as far as button inputs and having the best tools for the job, making the switch to hitbox seems alot like switching from controller to mouse and keyboard in a shooter game. Its different and the muscle memory needs to be rebuilt but theres ulitmately more room for you to perform better and improve your output.
One of the future techs i am looking forward to is the handless or brain controlled game or controllers. Given that the same technology is available to all, it cannot be an advantage unless i am the only one that can have it. When these new technologies become available, they should be allowed because it introduces a new paradigm and advances technology. Would or should we forbid shoes in an olympic marathon because they wore sandles in the first olympics?
Using your thoughts alone instead of using your hands and fingers in conjunction to play a game is cheating and takes no skill. Games like chest, HOI4 and etc. are the only permissible games in which you shouldn’t be required to manually use your fingers.
Fgc stuff is extremely niche. Like extremely extremely niche, so it’s not surprising that people who got into fgc stuff a few years ago are just finding this out, like me. I got into fgc stuff in 2020.
the intro to the hitbox for some melee players was the only way some were able to play as well. but it is undoubtably better. The corked bat reference is perfect.
Well yeah anytime a tool gives an advantage it edges out player skill. IE; 2 players at the same exact skill, but one is using a tool like hitbox to get efficiency while the other is joystick user . The hitbox player will edge out the joystick user since the hitbox allows them to execute moves and things more efficient so lets say it gives them even 1% efficiency over joystick would make the hitbox player win. In shooting games tournaments they make everyone use same mouse and keyboards. Since some mouses have a poll rate switch on it that allows u to change speed of the mouse cursor, so when they aim down the scope or iron sights, they can click on button on the mouse to slow down the mouse for finer aim for sniping, then when shooting from the hip they increase poll rate of mouse to make the mouse cursor faster and cover more distance with minimal mouse/hand motion/movement. Clearly an advantage of efficiency like the hitbox.
This is nothing new. I've always used a keyboard back in the early 2000's during emulated fighting games on a PC. For me, it was much easier to move directionally than an arcade stick.
This is just an argument to enforce a controller standardizing measure for these tournaments really. The problem is.... there is a critical difference, and to the game it might just be a faster input... but to players it's a far greater difference. The problem is that the controls are ... in different specturms, just like how say for fps.... kb/m skilled players will generally put skilled controller users into the ground most the time & using a controller is a detriment. Just like how with racing games you'd not rank a player using an actual steering wheel with one using a KB, or one using controllers. I think the problem is the organizers don't put in controller standards (Be it KB, or what not) and the advantages of using something that's more robust, contains no risk of system uselessness if broken/damaged, & even more space & separation between keys allowing for faster & cleaner inputs overall, has not been pointed out & yes the lack of foresight after seeing one is the fault of those making the tournaments. Meh, we're a fing problem as a species.. often doing xyz because we can and taking advantage of something knowing that it comes with an overall benefit in what is almost an unregulated manner. Truthfully the line between 'hitboxes' and ones that aid you in your gameplay is several times more blurry than the one between the hitbox & it's joystick companion.
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
An underappreciated but big advantage to leverless designs is the ergonomic differences. I have a metal rod and several pins in my wrist from a motorcycle accident, and it made using stick painful over long sessions for me. Because of the way you use a hitbox design, it has relieved my wrist pain and allowed me to play again without stopping every 30 minutes because I was hurting. A lot of other players with carpal tunnel and similar issues have echoed the sentiment. It's not more comfortable for everyone, but it's a big deal for a lot of us.
That's definitely something to keep in mind. I'd hate to see someone lose a tournament because they had to take a break every 30 minutes because they were in pain.
Ergonomics is the reason I've gone this route, too. I'm a filthy casual at any fighting game I play, but I like the option of being able to use a controller that doesn't hurt me.
Respectfully, while your story is very understandable, you are almost certainly an exceptional case. So should we use the exception and apply it to the majority?
@@willus259 Ok, then I'll ask you this. Across all gaming genres, competitive players will get the equipment or hardware needed (Better Monitor FPS, better Computers, better Internet et,c) to contribute to their gameplay. Why does FGC instead hold back others? Nothing is stopping anyone from getting this controller. The controller doesn't use macros, doesn't play the game for you, doesn't win fundamentals. So just because a niche sector of competitive players refuse to relearn the game using a different controller from what they like/approve, should we hold back the majority from using an option that is better for gameplay and better for players wrists?
@@willus259 They should have the option if they want yes.
Glad you're still making FGC content, I thought those content were long gone
Fr, I was wondering if they're doing content on the previous EVO but it seems kinda too late now so maybe it'll never happen. lol
@@liandryss905 They did a whole freaking livestream for all if Evo, where you been at?
Nah. Its just rare that anything newsworthy happens anymore
YeAh but it’s in a topic that’s been recycled 1000 times so they need to do better to cater to the actual fgc
Their video on knee's championship at evo ain't that old
This is the kind of content I subscribed for. I understand the need to keep up with the drama but pieces like this are the bread and butter of the channel, in my humble opinion.
Truer words have never been spoken
yeap dunno why they stick to much with twitch streamers 🤑🤮 same thing why i sub here, fgc content were great and there's a lot of past event in the community and yet no updates
man, it's crazy to me how these guys are at a level where a few milliseconds of input speed is such a massive advantage
It's not really so crazy. If your inputs are slower by, say, 2-3 frames, that's the same has having 30-50 more ms of ping in a shooter.
Let's say you want to do something like dash under a jumping opponent on reaction and hit them as they land from behind. That jump might take something like 1/2 a second, or 30 frames. The limit of reaction speed is generally around 15 frames, but that's only for a really simple reaction like "click your mouse when the screen goes from red to green." Meanwhile in fighting games numerous situations can arise at a moment's notice.
So your opponent jumps. If you weren't expecting this jump or ready to react to it, chances are likely that you're not going to counter it and will instead block or try to go for a simpler AA option. But let's assume that you were expecting it, at a base minimum it's going to take you around 15 frames to even register that the jump is happening and to start inputting commands. Then you add the time it takes to actually input those commands, which is one area where the hitbox can have a significant advantage, and the time it takes for your character in the game to actually do the action once you've completed the input. The difference of 2-4 frames can mean the difference between successfully getting under and past the opponent's jump attack, leaving them open to be countered, or reacting too late and getting hit.
@@AirLancer man, i'm not even gonna pretend i understand half of what you're saying, i'm as casual a gamer as they come, i just enjoy watching e-sports... but regarding that 2-3 frames window, asuming that the game is running with 60 FPS animation, that's like 33-50 milliseconds, an average human blinks at 1/10th of a second which is like 2-3 times slower than the window you are talking about, that's not normal in any given metric...
but i guess i kinda understand, like playing an FPS game using keyboard/mouse vs controller, you can move significantly faster with the cardinal directions with a keyboard than a controller's analog stick
The idea is very simple lets use F1 racing as an example. In the beginning all F1 cars use manual stick shift, later on semi automatic paddle shift is introduce, now paddle shift is the normal. It still took about 6 years for the entire racing industry to accept that Paddle shift is more effcient than Manual Stick Shift. At it each shift, it only reduces fraction of second reaction time, over the course of whole race that become minutes.
If one day mind control input is developed for video game, we will also realize Keyboard and mouse is the less ineffcient way of operation. The community is only angry, because they need to adpot to new ideas and that means what they perfected before is loosing effectiveness.
Keyboard/Mouse vs Controller on FPS is a bit different, because the fact most Controller FPS game introduce Aim Assit, it is just simply less accurate on a controller. Some game does not require as much accuracy, that is when controller win.
@@haoye2413 yeah, that'll be very relatable because your average person drive F1 racers on a daily basis... but on that point, while i don't have experience driving F1, i do drive have experience with paddle shifters and manual transmissions... paddle shifters vs manual stick is different though, of course paddle shifters are more efficient since you don't have to clutch and you don't have to take your hands off the wheel to move your hands towards the stick, so the time difference from pulling the paddle to stepping on the clutch while physically moving the gear stick are several seconds, while the controllers have time differences in the milliseconds 2-3x faster than blinking, so you really cannot compare them like that
and you really can't make a case with a theoretical mind-control input controllers, since like you said it hasn't been invented
and the lateral movement on the keyboard does make a difference, for example there are games like cyberpunk 2077 where you need to double input a direction button on the keyboard to make a quick step vs doing a double input in a joystick or clicking the L3 button first before going to a direction, it's much faster on a keyboard
@@jervey123 See its not that crazy, you are fully aware that milliseconds of control difference actually make a huge difference. You highly underestimate your awareness skill.
From an ergonomic perspective, when you move a joystick, your wrist and even your arm need to coordinate. Additionally, the force exerted on the joystick also affects the entire controller, especially when you operate it on your lap, it's difficult to avoid side effects. The advantage of operating a Hitbox is that you can control the direction solely through finger movement and pressing, which greatly simplifies the control process and avoids the side effects caused by the movement of the wrist, arm, body, and the controller.
That's incredibly wrong.
The main difference between pad, stick box and hit box is apm.
On pad you are using 2-4 fingers.
On stick box you are using wrist + 3-5 fingers
On hit box you are using upto 10 fingers depending on model and preferences.
Obviously max apm is not even comparable to each other.
And the only problem - the more fingers you are using the harder is it to coordinate them - but that solves easily with practice.
This isn't really true. In theory what you said makes sense, but often times good players aren't mashing all the way to the far ends of their sticks. On top of this, because of how sticks are designed, it's more of *either* shoulder or wrist, not necessarily both.
On top of that the buttons are so big that even if you do mash your stick into the gate, there's no chance you miss or reduce your timing accuracy
Moving the joystick does not shift the entire controller on your lap - most quality arcade sticks are weighted in order to prevent that.
Sounds like a skill issue buddy
Fundamentally, a hitbox has the exact same advantages that a keyboard would.
Except it’s terrible for ergonomics
@@meathir4921 It's not, otherwise people would play FPS games and MOBAs on hitbox
And yes, you can do so.
@@bruhmaxxer In terms of technical advantages I agree keyboard matches Hitbox. But WASDing is terrible for your hands in terms of how much you have to “pinch” your hands into a smaller space. This is not as significant an issue in other games where inputs/second on the MOVEMENT controls is far lower (other genres have stuff like high mouse inputs/second so people develop carpal tunnel on their right hand for example). Besides, a mouse isn’t natively on a Hitbox, making that comparison is daft. You CAN remap the keys to be further apart on a keyboard, but even then most keyboards have terrible thickness that make you have to put more effort to press compared to bespoke Hitbox/Hitbox-like controllers and at that point if you have money investing in a controller is better for you.
@@meathir4921 you're obviously not a PC gamer dude. WASD moving fast, MUCH faster than you do in the FGC, and constantly, is pretty the norm.
@@meathir4921 ALSO the reason why PC gamers DONT use a hitbox for the movement in other games is because you need a fuck ton more keys in quick access than just movement.
You could get an MMO mouse to compensate, but yeah. You're out you're fucking mind.
I have been playing SF4 on a Keyboard since 2009( WASD+Numpad Layout) and whenever I told people Keyboard is THE MOST OP controller you can have, they all just laugh and now everyone is riding the bandwagon more than a decade later. 😪😪
I've got some combos and matches uploaded, so u can see execution is not the part where I fail much.
I was the one laughing on a friend that sayd me the same thing a decade ago
Because keyboards have bad ergonomics compared to Hitboxes or their kin
same!!! keyboards allow me to do complex combos which i cant do on stick
To be fair there’s a lot of differences between a keyboard and the box. The main difference here is that The buttons on the box are more responsive and and better for executing frame perfect moves. Also the alignment of keys on a keyboard or less ergonomic then how the buttons are set up on the box. Also since you only need a certain amount of buttons they can be larger than keys and therefore easier to hit in rapid succession.
@@coasterthekid8867 I agree with everything except by the part about hitboxes being more responsive. If you use a mechanical keyboard with linear switches (e.g. Cherry MX red switches) it's going to be very fast as the same level as a sanwa button.
wish you had brought up the "Optimal Potemkin Hitbox" it is really pushing the limits in interesting ways
would have been perfect during the section with Aris talking about pushing it to the extreme
You can either fully restrict the players to the exact same controllers and have them specified, supplied, serviced, secured, and supervised by tournament organizers, or you can leave the input choices completely up to the players use whatever input devices and control schemes they wish.
The space between those two extremes will always be filled with players trying to bend and break the rules to their advantage, and the further you go into the murky waters in between, the harder it becomes to consistently and completely enforce whatever rules you have in place, making fair competition impossible
This goes not just for fighting games, but for EVERY competitive video game that depends on reflex and skill, including FPS games, racing games, MOBAs, and RTS
Its crazy how many ppl get upset over input devices like hitbox when pads are VERY similar to hitbox. Legit just swipe left thumb over d pad and hit a button. Guess that means ppl should start arguing for a ban against everything except a stick
@@felipejesus4401 D pad and stick can only go one way
@@shvy100 do you know how extremely rare it is that youd need to press back and forward at the same time?
I think uniform sticks should be provided by the tournament. That's how you keep it fair. This way everyone is using the same exact controllers.
I've been using ;=up /=down .=left '=right and asd=light-to-heavy punch zxc-light to heavy kick since the mid 90s. It's interesting to me how keyboards have gone from being derided as an inferior input device to arcade sticks to now being labeled as cheating. I'm surprised it took this long for people to figure out the limits of the stick compared to key's/buttons for directional input.
I love how articulate Aris sounds when you catch him at the right moments. Whenever he's educating his chat and not yelling at them the dude lets slip how wise he really is lol.
hobo Gimli do have esoteric knowledge mere mortals dream of knowing.
He's wise for a 48 year old
Hes still wrong
@@FGirao haHAA so funny
"What was that?." "Don't talk to me."
Based reimu enjoyer.
Also, interesting how much more complex the issue became in the Smash scene than in the general FCG. Most fighting games only register 8 directions but Melee cares about the full range and easy access to perfect full length wavedashes or other angle dependent tech could be unfair. Hax basically wrote a freaking PhD thesis to explain the angles he gave the B0XX access to.
Where is the raymoo in the video
@@wertyxq3468 6:21
and ina poster
@@kraizerxthesimp46 Korean comfort woman
Also 5:41
Enjoying the sassy ghost is pretty based
Last Input Priority seems to have the most advantage. Hold back button without releasing it and just push the front button + punch button anytime to perform a sonic boom.
That’s why guile is my new fave ever since I got a hitbox. I used to hate charge characters but sonic booms and flash kicks are so easy now. There’s even a unique thing that happens in SF6 on hitbox that when you press up + kick twice after a knee bazooka it will do a lvl 1 super without needing to charge.
It's really interesting how fighting games are a bit like F1 racing where we're trying to optimize as much as humanly possible to where 2-4 frame inputs are a massive advantage due to the inherent nature of stick/pad needing to travel.
Great observation.
It's funny how the FGC hated on keyboards for years, then someone invented a glorified keyboard with arcade buttons and now everyone says it's OP
so the fgc still continued hating on keyboard. at least its consistent
@@jamessmurf2929 bro thought he did something 😂
Thats so lame its not like wasd and using mouse or graphic tablet is also consider cheating in shooter games
Well it is OP, it’s not really debatable
@@MerknilashIt's VERY debatable.
Another unspoken advantage is how much better hitboxes are for your wrists compared to a stick. I think that's a good thing though, why should you risk carpal tunnel with a stick that's not as ergonomically sound if you do want to play fgs in the long run?
Meh, play some KOF on keyboard or Hitbox.
You’re gonna want your stick back.
I don't know, many players have switched to HitBox and then gotten carpal tunnel, it's no better for your wrists
Hands get sore af playing hitbox for like 20mins, can play on stick for hours and no pain
For me it's always the hand controlling the buttons that starts to hurt first
My right hand when using a Fight Stick, and my left when using Mouse and Keyboard
I don't think it's better for your wrists at all. I've heard or plenty of people who started to develop carpeltunnel after swapping to HitBox
@@HeavyMetalLink05 It depends on your posture. If you are leaning your hand on the base of the hitbox you'll probably have the same wrist issues as stick. You have to hover your hand over the buttons. Then you should be able to play for hours without pain.
excellent video guys you only missed one point, a hitbox / keayboad is more gentle to the wrist and other joints and ligaments in the hand, that is also a reason why some people choose hitbox even if they are not hardcore competitive players
That's true. Also the reason why some stick players WAYYYY back in the day switched to pad for a while when they had a wrist injury like qudans
Not for me though. My left ring finger hurts after prolonged hitbox usage. And i'm never tired using my fightstick.
It's really depends on the person.
@@MichaelHarto yep it depends where you have tendonitis, sorry to hear that mate
@@jorge86rodriguez well it's much better than if i use a gamepad.. since i'm a dpad user, the base of my left thumb hurts like a b*tch after 30 minutes of playing 😔. Man, aging sucks..
this is another factor that's overlooked, Daigo is like 40 now, do people really think this mans wrists will last another 15-20 years playing competitively on a standard arcade joystick.
Melee is having similar controversies surrounding the hit box. I didn’t realize it was also affecting other FGCs
melee isn't fgc
@@mickaelferri1513
Insert laughing risitas
@@mickaelferri1513it's a fighting game, just a different genre
@@mickaelferri1513it is and one of the most popular.
Gatekeeping at its finest, ill guess you never played melee, i play botg sf3 and smash, and theyre much more simikar than appears
This whole time I could have been playing fighting games on my PC with a keyboard lol. I thought the keyboard was inferior but this hit box is basically a streamlined keyboard.
Same same.. 😂😂😂😂😂
LOL.KB only $10 ++++
it's literally just pushbuttons
I'm glad you brought up that some inputs are easier on stick. Goldlewis in strive was entirely designed with stick in mind, playing him on box is very counter intuitive. Not saying its impossible, it's just far less natural.
As long as they're physical inputs aka not automatic locked in buttons, it's fine
Like a macro?
The problem is though that there are some things that ONLY the Hitbox can do that other types of controllers can't. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom / Flash Kick (from Street Fighter) when done correctly on a Hitbox, will ALWAYS come out faster than on a normal arcade stick (It's one of the reasons Daigo likes using it so much.)
So while both a Hitbox and an arcade stick are both physical inputs, the Hitbox just straight up has an advantage that other controllers don't.
@@NoPingAndy you can do the same thing on ps4 controller, in fact the ps4 controller actually has access to way more shortcuts than a hitbox, but no one complains about that because complaining about something that gives only a very slight and marginal advantage is stupid
@Taylor Whiteside Pad doing charge tricks is done at a top level lol; both pad and Hitbox have always had this advantage
@Taylor Whiteside Idk about Tekken; movement is so core and so input intensive that I could see Hitbox being either amazingly strong or extremely weak for it (since the movement tech was developed with stick in mind). In most traditional 2D fighters where movement is not as intense as Tekken, most anything a Hitbox player can do a pad player has access to too (I mean, SonicFox is a pad player and is a top competitor in like 4 different modern 2D fighters).
Another thing to consider about hitboxes is how much easier they are on your hands and wrists.
This depends on the person. KOF is brutal, and designed around sticks.
Bro 14:33. Imagine a world where the hitbox is outclassed by the guitar hero controller. EVO 2030, all players have modded their guitars so light is strum down and heavy is up. The finals two players are duking it out by making sick riffs on their guitars as sonic booms and hadoukens fly across the big screen
PEAK GAMING first thing I thought of when I read this was the guitar hero episode on south park episode 😂
lol
People who call them cheatboxes are just mad that they are the optimal way to play fighting games and they have to toss aside 20 years of stick memory.
That sounds like a good reason to be mad
I know I'd be displeased if I had to give up two decades of learned skills.
@@lampad4549keyboard and dpad have been around the whole time so why would simply making a better design be so bad? Shouldn't people be developing better ways to play not artificially locking themselves with worse methods?
@@iBlueClovr Technically, the game developers themselves have also tried to simplify the inputs for casual players, like simply pressing a direction and a button can pull off a special move. An argument can be made that continually modding the controllers is just another way of simplifying the inputs even if there's a learning curve.
i think if a controller it self is different enough to define a meta and spark controversy. then a standard should be set for tournaments as easy as that, also it should be standard anyways because tournaments shouldn't have situations where you blame the hardware should be even and putting skill against one another not on who has a better set up or who spent more money.
It's kinda ironic how for decades these games were only made with sticks and gamepads in mind, and noone cared how it would play on a keyboard. Until it turned out that a keyboard is better even in games like these LOL
@@em_the_bee yeah super weird
@@em_the_bee even funnier since everyone has a keyboard, it's much more affordable than a stick or even an official gamepad
@@BortaMaga not everyone has a gaming keyboard
@@guyfauks2576 I never said "gaming". Actually, I get better executions on my cheap generic membrane keyboard over my much more expensive mechanical one.
If you want to try a new controller, here are the best advantages I found in some of them:
- Stick: good for circular (half circle, full circle, 180°, 1080°, etc.) and clean inputs.
- d Pad: fast, smooth and silent movement. Personally I think Z motion is easier too.
- Hitbox: save your wrist and thumb.
Dragon punch is instant on hitbox. You can walk forward dp. I can do dp 8 different ways on a hitbox in sfv.
Hitbox isn’t intuitive at all for KOF.
@@chronology556 I used to play kof with keyboard. It's easier imo, but you need to adapt to certain inputs. Hitbox is the same.
Imo i feel like leverless is good for fighting game like street fighter, though not the case for game like tekken that requires circular input
Imagine saying pressing ASD (half circle) in a semi-chord manner is HARDER than flicking a God Damn stick. It's like light year faster to input, wth?
The funny thing is he mentioned cork bats and we now know that cork bats don’t help that much. The weight change may lead to faster swings, but less velocity off the bat. Obviously hit boxes actually give an advantage,
The latest data on corked bats is that they're actually worse, not by much but still worse.
It's funny, but not shocking that a FGC dude isn't exactly a big sports guy.
i actually disagree, and they highlighted this in the video as well. You cannot input a half circle input as fast on a hitbox than you can on a joystick. Which means fighting game characters that have inputs close to each cardinal direction will always be better on a joystick. A joystick is used in military fighter jets for this very reason. Additionally to repeat an input means you have to hit the same button twice, while with a joystick you can hold/spin and even roll directionally and it is automatically using multiple inputs. The only major difference outside of the obvious of using opposite cardinal directions for combos on a hitbox, is the level of precision under any circumstance to not miss an input which the hitbox does not punish you for compared to the stick.
Aris has mostly bad opinions, I wish they didn't use him as any sort of reference for this video.
@@bipolarminddroppings To be fair, that's potentially down to the fact that Baseball is such a momentary and exact sport at the MLB level that having a bat you're not used to ruins your muscle memory and makes you worse at swinging. A third of your time to react to the pitch is lost to your brains reaction time. You essentially have just enough time to think "yes" or "no" when a fastball is thrown at 98mph. You don't have time to adjust your swing mid pitch. So using a different bat messes up the incredibly precise muscle memory you've built up, meaning any potential advantage from a cork bat is ruined by the fact you're mis hitting most of the time now.
I've literally always used keyboard to play fighters. Keyboards still aren't allowed in any competitions which is why I never go to or care about them. A controller is a controller
Love how the editor had Reimu up behind him. Based
What wasn’t explained was that the gafrobox that Daigo got banned with had duplicated buttons.
And that most board people use in hitbox especially brook boards have socd cleaning already on the board. No one is using zero delay usb boards for hitbox because of their input delay.
What I think people use more hitbox is because back then arcade stick can be expensive they only can afford keyboard as an alternative but consider that there's a controller called mixbox (which is hitbox with keycaps) people took this more because arcade button has very precise input
Sup cuz
Arcade sticks are significantly cheaper though.
@@gregorymirabella1423 everyone already has a keyboard. A pc gamer only buys a separate gear to enter tourneys that play on playstation
I'll stick with my arcade stick because that's what's fun for me
I'm pretty big on peripherals and am an Azeron user.
I own a mayflash arcade stick with the Sanwa parts. I do recognize that hitbox is clearly superior and would perhaps prefer to use one, but I decided to stick to the stick for the sake of gaining arcade skills. If I'm traveling about and come across an arcade machine I want to be proficient at using it.
hitbox is not superior its broken that's why it exists. keyboards also should never have been a viable peripheral for fighting games even on pc. being able to physically press socd in a fighting game breaks the game and the way the inputs are meant to be received. other wise they would have used all button cabinets from the creation of 1v1 fighting games like streetfighter and others like it but wen they tested it they found they needed to use a stick. and home consoles of the time for sness sega playstation what have you they all have a physical pivot under the d-pad to make it impossible to press socd on the D-pad because it breaks most games that use the d-pad if you can press socd.
@roastytoasty8559
Pretty sure that "breaking" the game in your favour makes it superior, by your own definition
@@KaneA87 go try twist someone else words. my stance and what i said is very clear. do what ever mental gymnastics you have too to try convince yourself its not cheating i guess. breaking the game is cheating. hitbox is cheating.
To be fair, the HitBox is more ergonomically sound compared to a bat-top stick on top of the travel time. Also, if you were to remove the stick, you'd find, underneath on the control deck, four dip-switch buttons attached to the base of that stick. I see it as there's room for both control schemes. People should be free to pick which of the two they feel is right for them.
Gonna be interesting to see how fightsticks develop to keep up. We already have the crossup and things such as the antagonist (which i believe is shown at 13:13) help to combat the travel time differences. There's also stuff like the anklegator where you can have physical macros so I'm excited to see how it develops
The antagonist is clearly cheating because it’s a programmed macro to alternate your input.
Macros is definitely cheating tho...
All the fgc coverage makes me happy
You forgot to add a very important Aris clip, but let me quote it:
"If it were up to me even pads would be banned and everyone will play on arcade sticks".
I am also of that opinion, but alienating pad/hitbox/keyboard players is impossible. Hitbox will be the near future unfortunately. I've played on stick for more than 10 years now and the advantage in some games of being able to block much faster than an arcade stick player (ESPECIALLY online) is gigantic. An example would be a Milia player in guilty gear rev 2 running at you and pressing 2K. That thing comes at you so fast that sometimes my boomer hands can't even block on time.
All in all I am of the opinion that fighting games should be played on levers, because that's how they were designed, but it sucks when it goes in the different direction of "who will bend the rules the most". Maybe if they made arcade sticks cheaper this wouldn't be such a problem, but it is what it is.
True
15:30 - Shows what that guy knows. Corked bats are illegal, but they actually make it harder to hit home runs - in spite of what people say. (Mythbusters addressed this)
honestly i think that a hitbox allows for more accessibility for people , like i have wrist problems and controller and arcade stick both hurt my wrist and hand but i am fine using a keyboard so something like a hitbox seems great for me as its just a super simplified keyboard
I play fighting games on keyboard, pretty much for this reason. A lot of inputs are just easier to do, I can just type out my quarter circles and such rather than spinning a stick around wildly. I’m sure if I practiced with stick I’d get decent with it, but why do that when keyboard is just fine
Which switch do you think is the best?
Speed? Silver? Red? Brown?
@@fajaradi1223 keyboard speed, idk. I have a laptop lol
Hitbox is faster than keyboard because it is ergonomical and the jump is on another place, meaning you can hit it with 2nd hand.
Change is often scary, and it's innevitable.
Sticks won't go anywhere immediately anyway lmao
I believe it will come sooner rather than later. The new generation uses gamepad and kb playing games. And without the influence of older people they wouldn't touch a joystick. Look at sonicfox and punk. They use gamepad. And they are now considered Old players.
@@badassgenevideos its a generational thing, oldheads grew up with arcades and sticks, newer gens grew up with consoles and pad, the newest gen is probably growing up with pc and mnk more than pad so i think we'll see people adapting their keybinds to a hitbox style layout if possible, fightsticks will never leave the greater fgc canon but i think we'll start to see more new kids learning on mnk because they dont have the money for a pad or stick, and the pros will slowly move over to hit boxes if they remain legal because of the familiarity of stick style inputs
In other words, some older people (not all of them, even newer can be one) are whining babies who always find an excuse to don't accept something new.
The older generation of games were all arcade ports, so there was a strong logic behind using a lever. The newer generation games are mostly straight to console(Tekken 7 and the 1st version of SF4 were really the last bastions). They're made with consideration to the fact that most people will be using a Pad, so that makes a huge difference. Sticks won't be going anywhere because they're fun, but I think from a strictly competitive standpoint they'll be going more the way of "The only guy who shows up all Natty at the Mr. Olympia contest" at least at the Elite of Elite level where every single /ms makes a difference.
You could already play the games on keyboards. A Hitbox is just a more ergonomic keyboard, tbh.
I moved to a hitbox just because I couldn't do on the arcade stick stuff like hyper-jump, or dashes that required opposite direction swapping, only on a pad, and by flicking it.
I'm not a competitive player of fighting games, but it just allows me to actually play with the intended moves while not using a keyboard that is cumbersome. Though I recall playing Mortal Kombat 1/2 on a keyboard way back when :D
Many argued that keyboard are also cheating for basically all the same reasons Hitbox.
@@aureateseigneur5317 And thats the stupidest argument ever tbh. Its like console players calling pc players cheaters.
@@JayceCH. Many PC players are cheaters, the sphere is rampant with them. Lots of legit players to tho.
With that said, until guards for things like multi-directional holding where implemented, playing on Keyboard was cheating, no different then Hitbox. You had access to a controller that let you do things completely unintended by the developers because your input method wasn't ever supposed to be used in the first place.
@@JayceCH. there is a reason why competitions separate keyboard + mouse players from controller players, it is cheating to play with a keyboard and a mouse from a controller perspective, that's just simple fact, nothing stupid about it at all, you should educate yourself better before speaking...
As someone who started playing fighting games on a keyboard, then switching to pad and eventually investing in a traditional stick. I feel like leverless controllers are the perfect evolution as they don't hurt my hands and inputs feel more precise and less unintuitive to new players.
In a fighting game the less mistake you make the more easier to win, by using hitbox you reduce your input error leading you to more easier combos and even greater precision compared to stick. So playing with a hitbox is riding a faster safer bike with training wheels, while playing with a stick is like riding a slower and more inefficient bike.
It's not really training wheels, knowledge is still a factor
Not being able to input your controls safely sounds to me like a fundamental issue in itself. Standards of engineering are built upon not letting the user make mistakes.
This is similar to things in speed running (like using an nes controller). Being able to press two buttons is something that is left to TAS, but people aren’t doing it because physically you cannot on the controller.
People refuse to understand that exact point: doing things that you can't on a regular controller like pressing 2 opposite directions at the same time.
But that would be a hit box without socd cleaning. Which it has on a hardware and software level.
A Mario 1 speed runner on hitbox would be a god.
If you look at the history of golf, there are tons of "eras" when it comes to the equipment that was used. Almost every generation had an argument whether it was about golf clubs, balls, outside tools, etc being considered "cheating". This feels no different and people and rules will change and adapt accordingly.
yeah, weren't dimpled balls considered cheating at one point? Now, dimpled balls are the standard
bowling is similar with the improvement of ball coverstocks
But those new technologies are objectively better and don't fundamentally change the mechanics of the game if players are on the same course. The difference between a control stick and buttons might as well be different games entirely.
It’s cheating because the people using levers are mad that you don’t want to spend months building muscles memory with a stick that you’re only ever going to use for fighting games
It's cheating because these games are literally designed around an arcade stick control scheme and you have real competitive advantages using this instead. Stop being dishonest.
@@Ilovevidgames123 How is it designed around an arcade stick? Just because the games used to be released in arcade? Why don’t people who play stick switch to hitbox then?
@@michaeldominy5526 Yes. Many still are released in arcades first. Do you not know anything about the history of fighting games? Lmao
They are switching, in droves. Wtf are you talking about? The only sense in which it could be said that they're not switching, is in the sense that the switch has already happened.
Pls, ffs, approach this argument honestly. Quit trying to write it off as just snobs wanting to gatekeep people new to fighting games or people with hand-/wrist-/motor skills-related conditions. It's fucking not, and you ought to be honest enough to acknowledge that.
@@Ilovevidgames123It's quite funny since that argument doesn't apply because every fighting game nowadays is officially released on pc and the default control scheme is keyboard.
But that and, just because it wasn't designed in mind, doesn't mean it's cheating. People have played on things like guitar hero controllers, wheels, custom arduinos, etc.
On top of games like Street Fighter, because they weren't made with Keyboard in mind, you have inputs that are more difficult with precise controls when they expected you to roll your joystick.
@@StaminaLoss And you think release of contemporary fighting games on PC means it's designed for PC? You realize that the inputs commonly used for special moves even in modern fighting games were devised when fighting games only released on arcades, and that many contemporary fighting games still release in arcades before console and PC release, right? Lol, jfc. You people really have no idea what you're talking about.
Fighting games weren't designed for the inputs of moves to be as easy as possible. The joystick requiring movement and thus not making directional inputs as easy as they are with buttons is an integral part of the strategy of fighting games, not an arbitrarily-erected obstacle to it. Walking forward is *supposed* to involve that split-second more's commitment and difficulty to go to back or down-back to reaction-block. That's *intentional*, as are many, many more tactical considerations born of the execution requirements of typical fighting game inputs.
i play tekken on controller on the d-pad, and it HURTS my hands after just like 5 minutes, so i swapped to keyboard, and it was much easier but it just felt weird since either the corners of my laptop were constantly stabbing into my arms or i had to raise my hands in a weird way, then i swapped to a hitbox with a keyboard design, and i must say, that was such an amazing swap
Quite frankly, fighting game tournament should be using arcade cabinets instead of monitors and controllers.
Major tournaments are sponsered by large developers like Capcom and SNK so having custom made, reusable, cabinets for the players to use would ensure fairness as all players are using the same controllers, ensuring that skill is the deciding factor and not technological advantages.
The "legacy games won't get patched" thing seems so simple to solve, in the same way that anti-cheat software would handle it. If any competitive environment requires software to be installed that interprets the SODC a certain way and this is what is then transmitted to the game, then wouldn't that instantly standardise whatever rule they choose to adopt for all legacy games?
@6:25 This dude is a Reimu Endou and Ina fan.
Many long-time stick players are developing health issues with their left hand. Hitbox (and physical therapy) can allow them to play again. Players that replace their stick with a hitbox now may even be preventing future hand injury without ever knowing it.
thats funny coz a lot of people also get bad and weak wrists from resting their wrist in one position all day on a keyboard. eh tomato tomahtoe?
After many many years on classic lever, I finally bought a hitbox. It takes time to get used to it, but just for hitting those diagonals and shortcuts it's worth it.
This is very interesting! I do have an arcade stick, but it is more for nostalgic reasons. I used to be fascinated by the arcade.
Did you even grow up in a arcade
I love the cork bar analogy. Well put.
As for myself, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get past the inherent “unintuitiveness” of the leverless controllers and I’m a 09er fightstick guy till I die.
With that being said, the HB Cross|up completely outclasses the traditional fightstick in every way imaginable. If you play on arcade style controllers there’s 0 reason not to use a crossup.
This product (and its layout’s form factor) brings sticks to more even terms with pads and leverless when considering each input method’s perceived advantages over the other.
If full body VR input get it's edge, fighting game with be a much different thing.
i hope not
Coming from a card game background. Just make nostalgic arcade game stick format for those that want to play. And then The regular competitive scene can be dominated by the meta
Everyone is saying they should have different leagues. What they should do is implement new game design. Have some characters who are better and easier to play with a hitbox, and others who are better with a stick (720s and stuff).
Aris giving a 200 word essay in the video, alright
Essentially they need to figure out a standard way that commands can be input, period. That means once again going back to side by side identical inputs. No programming button combos( it eliminates an entire layer of possibly incorrect inputs) hit box multiple inputs and instead of 4 directions buttons increase it to 8 doing a dragon punch that’s three button presses, or d,df,f on a dpad ot stick simple. Either Everyone is equal or use whatever the hell you want.
I really hope sticks dont vanish. I played with basically all controller types but stick is by far my favorite one, it feels way too damn satisfying in order for me to give it up. In my opinion nothing can compare to the pure joy of perfectly nailing an input with the stick.
as someone who used a stick for 3 years because every pro was using it i dont get this how does it feel satisying? all your doing is moving the stick would the same apply to dpad on a pad? or what about the new hitbox?
@@deathbringer9893 I wish I could explain it bettee but there is just something about the feel of the stick itself, when I'm using it I really feel "Yes these games where made with this controller in mind". All the motions are very intuitive on the stick. It just feels right to use, and while a Hitbox also has satisfying buttons to push, I really miss the feel a stick provides when I'm using one. D pad just feels kinda weird to use. It is fully functional and was the controller I first played on, but even back then before I ever touched a stick I felt that something felt wrong playing like that. It's kinda like how I wouldn't play something like Devil May Cry on Keyboard and Mouse those games feel right with a controller, or how I would never play first person shooters with a controller, because those feel best with Mouse and Keyboard
they wont disappear, retro gamers and old fight boys still love trying to stay as true as possible to the original experience, plus levers are fun.
Pretty sure that it will vanish soon™, but at least arcade stick boomers and retro gamers will make it alive as long as possible. Have fun while it last!
You can always play with your own fight stick I never got why people try to inforce what they like on other people
Insane how cs and fps community in general is now going through the same debate after Razer and Wooting’s Snap Tap/SOCD
Spent my post Mortal Kombat Trilogy years playing fighting games on PC, so... "Hit boxes" were always kind of a thing. From my experience though, hit boxes do give more precise directional input but the timing requires more practice than a traditional controller or joystick. You can screw up inputs just as easily on a hit box if your fingers are even a little off.
It depends on where you see the skill of gameplay. Is it on how the stick is waggled or is it on understanding and reacting to what's happening in the game itself? Personally im of the view that simpler and more accessible controls level the playing field externally to raise the level of competition within the game itself.
Fair Point. I even wonder "why theres no hadoken button" (no sarcasm at all.)
I agree
Reimu and Ina on 5:40 lol
I think this argument falls apart as soon as you introduce the fact that you can use a keyboard to play these games. A hitbox is functionally not much different from a keyboard with most of its keys ripped out. If you're so convinced that playing on a hitbox gives you a competitive advantage, buy a damn hitbox. If you don't think you should have to change what you're doing to compete, you don't understand competition. I'm not about to go look-up prices but does a hitbox cost considerably more than a fightstick? My gut says they should be about equal. Meaning you aren't being asked to take on any more financial burden based on which one you use, so it doesn't create entry barriers that aren't already there.
The people against these things honestly just sound butt hurt that they learned the old way and don't want to have to learn a new way.
Exactly. Every sport is about taking advantage of situations when they are presented, as fair as posible.
If the games were not designed to br played with such controllers, its the games fault. Period.
This argument falls apart when you actually know the difference. Equating it to a average keyboard which is still banned in some tournaments is nonsensical.
It's a basic fact you can buffer and input moves a controller or stick can't do. Talking about your 5 dollar keyboard to dismiss it ignores the point. A very expensive mechanical keyboard will still be an advantage if it had enlarged and responsive buttons.
@@TheRockemsockm I don't remember saying anything about the quality of keyboard. I didn't know keyboards are sometimes banned, that matters a bit.
But the bedrock issue is, if you think it's the best, why aren't you using it? How is that different from a golf pro showing up to a pro tour without a putter then claiming it wasn't fair everyone else was using one?
@@TheRockemsockm The video pretty much explains its not the players' fault for using a hitbox. Its the devs fault because now they decided to work on fixing issues they never forsaw or straight up ignored all these years. But you do you, I guess
Exactly, it's like when rally cars became AWD, the meta changed and to stick to RWD would mean losing. At the end every car company adapted to the change
This video needs a update because the FGC wanted to ban custom fight sticks but the fighting game as of now are useing simple input mechanics for they new fighting game’s basically like the controllers
using the hitbox makes characters created for using joystick like guile with charging moveset is why hitbox is considered cheating. It allows you execute charge attacks without the constraints of the joystick inputs , which the charging ability is based on with said constraints of using joystick. It makes those characters like guile god tier by allowing the execution of charge attacks split second like when the AI is playing as Guile.
There are things you can do with Hitbox that you cant do with Pad and Joystick.
Making Fighting Games have another barrier to entry will kill this genre off for good.
Lmao not even close, that stuff only matters at the highest level
That is incorrect. You can do the same things on pad with the analog stick using claw
@@opssoldier3316 yep Knuckldu did it for years with Guile
you could just code the neutral position between a down and up input, or in other words a basic pause between directional inputs for opposing directions with 2-3 frame time window. would disarm all the advantage the hitbox give and make it fair...it should no problem for future games, and inputs are the bread and butter of fighting games...so a good one, with ambition to competition should have this.
I have no idea why they haven’t done this. This is literally the main reason people are complaining about it.
@@opssoldier3316 Because it goes against what most modern fighting games are trying to achieve when they are making more input leniency.
“Why do people think using this controller is cheating? Because it is, you can do things with Hit Box type controllers that you can’t do with a regular stick, like holding back, down, an down back at the same time, this works wonders for charge characters and it guarantees you never miss a dragon punch.
The dude literally says it gives him an advantage to do things that he wouldn't normally be able to do. How is that not seen as cheating? It's like saying a Gameshark isn't cheating just because it's a peripheral doesn't mean that it should be legal
14:50
Avoiding The Puddle: Talking about how the Hitbox is a cheating controller via the button debate.
Kevin: Nice balls :)
I feel like this conversation needs to include input buffers. I'm mostly familiar with Guilty Gear, and I've used an Odin (basically WASD instead of a lever) but primarily use a lever/joystick. In Strive, the buffer is so large that doing, say a DP or a Flash Kick out of block stun or on wakeup is done instantaneously no matter the controller used. Now in a game like Xrd or other older games with a much tighter buffer window, you might be in a position where you're in neutral instead of holding a direction, but in modern games I think it's more or less a wash with certain exceptions. Other improvements, like a dash macro, also reduce any advantage a button box might have.
Watch this in 1.25x speed.
U changed my life bro
Made it better
I have seen literal hospital beds at FGC tournaments and other interesting folk participating. It is only good to allow as many controllers as we can so not one person is sidelined. I even hear that FGC devs are beginning to take steps to even include the blind. The day when existence is all that is needed to play a fighting game will be a beautiful day.
Y’all think your community is small, go out in public and ask ANY gamer if they like driving games. There’s a lot on TH-cam, but I never actually meet them. Inclusion is bullshit if seemingly no one actually cares about what you like.
Yeah, but there are obviously also limits. You can't just wish your way into a win without skill. Execution will always be a part of fighting games or other E-Sports. If you don't like pressing buttons or moving sticks, play chess.
It's an interesting debate, being able to input more movements within a controllers polling window or eliminate travel time of a stick is a huge is a huge deal at the highest level of play. I don't think they should be banned though, most of us cling to sticks as the games originated in cabinets with the same controls. Three decades later, the vast majority of the FGC will never see the latest games in cabinets, only home consoles/computers. Stands to reason that it's a natural evolution of it's user base.
It gives a bigger advantage for sure but, everyone these days can get one however I think for the pro leagues in these fighting games should only limit to approved controllers/arcade sticks.
it's funny how many people bought gamepads to play fighting games on PC saying keyboard was bad, people doing mods on dualshock controllers using the LPT1 port on pc too, way back in the mid 2000's, then the arcade stick revolution started and everyone was buying those, now everyone is getting button boxes, even building their own since it's so easy, and a hitbox is basically a keyboard, so keyboard was the actual meta
in the late 90's early 2000's i didn't have a gamepad so i played a bunch of fighting games on emulators using keyboard (using the arrow keys for movement) and it felt just fine, i played online through kaillera (who's old enough to remember that?), finally people are discovering how efficient an all button controller can be
Games just need to start adding a "hitbox" config in their joystick configs. Have 2 sets of move inputs, one for hitbox, one for joystick. Problem solved. I'm sure the game companies could add different commands to hitbox that make moves more laggy. Imagine if hadouken required a "double button press" for a hitbox controller only. That would solve a lot of issues.
Another factor that I'm coming to grips with now is disability that Hitbox might just be what I'll need to keep playing and enjoying fighting games. I've always been a 6-face button gamepad player for SF and honestly have only been able to perform well on SC2 with a fight stick. It was never a lack of wanting to use it, I just never was able to develop the speed i had on controller with a fight stick. Now that I've developed MS, I'm starting to see a delay in the reaction time for my hands in general. I've become rather curious about the potential of seeing if a hitbox lets me try to regain my speed playing these games. The alternative unfortunately is for me to never be able to play fighting games again...and that's not something I'm ready to do.
that is also the explanation & reasonings that certain FPS players use when using xim or chronus!
😢
It feels weird to me that they would deny the use of hitbox, when pad controller already got the same thing.
each button for each input is fine to me. you still have to reach each button 1 by 1, and having to input everything manually
Personally, a stick is a relic that's pretty inefficient for sending inputs like 236X or 214X.
If you think about it, a stick is just a cluster of 4 directional buttons, making the travel time to each button inefficient, especially inputs like 228: instead of just 228, you must go through 25258, on hit box, you just 2528
hit box just separates that cluster into 4 buttons to reduce the travel time. and if you're concerned about blocking in both direction, there're already solutions for that.
What would be cheating is when you have multiple buttons that does the same thing (like 4 buttons for A, but in different layouts), when they could have multiple "shortcuts" for each string of input. like top row for Super #1, and 2nd row for Super #2, etc.
Sticks only have 4 levers, when you use diagonals 2 levers are pressed at the same time same as keyboard or hitbox.
reminds me of the whole manual transmission vs. tiptronic debate, eventually everything will go towards better efficiency
Its like WSAD in keyboard but a little tweak. Its not cheating as long as there is no macro key like an 1 input can make special move. Ex. Back, forward,down forward +AB = 1 input
Hitbox is ok but it can be a doorway to cheating. So official rules should be 1 input = 1 command. 1 button for left, 1 button for right, 1 button for down and so forth.
Very interesting.
I'm just an average player of SF and still use a joystick and arcade stick also.
But seeing this hotbox got me thinking about the charge characters.
Been able to do left and right at the same time sounds great.
But yeah it's kinda cheating.
Just an opinion.
So this is like using Keyboards for fighting games??
It's kinda hard too when doing circular motions, or semi-circular motions, like: Tekken's Jack "circular motion where he counts" or Akuma's Mesatsu Gohado (qcf,qcf 1+2). Your fingers are gonna hurt or will get tired for the long time.
Can you even play a King of Fighters game with it's wierd motion controls??
Why I think I wanna buy a Joystick.
Unless this thing isn't like a keyboard??
Yeah its evidently the money talked, especially from these controller companies.
2-3 frame advantage is HUGE, there are characters who become strong even at 1 frame advantage. Just because they can do that poke or fast punch attack and be safe from retaliation.
The charge characters, the 360 or 720 degree grab characters, this is HUGE for anyone who wants to play the game in any competive game, they gain FAR more than 3 frame advantage.
Another big thing is the jump button on the hitbox, because you can press it with 2nd hand, just thinking the combinations you can do with it.
At least the pros accept that its stronger and have no delusions why its stronger. At this point anyone who doesnt use it is in a disadvantage.
@@gintokisan5171 I play on both keyboard and stick and I just can't get the people that say motion inputs are hard on a keyboard. You're literally just typing "SDSD" or "SASA" for 2qcfs if you're playing on a keyboard.
@@JJ-jh4cm Try playing any SNK/GG game on a keyboard/hitbox. Good luck hitting 2141236, 632146 and 1632143s consistently.
@@nida4602 I do play +R but not SNK. I can do the inputs with a hitbox as consistently as I do in stick, even better at times. But, I learned to play instruments since I was a kid so maybe that factors in when it comes to finger independency? And I play "ASD" and "Space" on a keyboard instead of "WASD" , so maybe that's why it's easier and doesn't feel cramped.
love the fgc and smash content keep it up!
There is a accessibility issue here too. Some people would have an easier time controlling the game over a pad or stick.
And communities, particularly niche communities with hard-molded opinions, are afraid of change.
The Hitbox is a far more efficient control scheme that can be used by people who have issues with controllers or sticks, but the fear of change is what holds back innovation.
The Asteroid is coming. Be the Dinosaur, or the little Rat.
Lol the end of this made me laugh
I think sticks are way cooler. But as far as button inputs and having the best tools for the job, making the switch to hitbox seems alot like switching from controller to mouse and keyboard in a shooter game. Its different and the muscle memory needs to be rebuilt but theres ulitmately more room for you to perform better and improve your output.
I got a Hit-Box to play tekken 8 as a Figthing game noob. I wanted the Fight-Stick but they were to expensive.
One of the future techs i am looking forward to is the handless or brain controlled game or controllers. Given that the same technology is available to all, it cannot be an advantage unless i am the only one that can have it. When these new technologies become available, they should be allowed because it introduces a new paradigm and advances technology. Would or should we forbid shoes in an olympic marathon because they wore sandles in the first olympics?
You won’t be alive for that my friend. And either will I
Casual entertainment is never going to be a sufficient reason for me to hook my brain into anything.
@@jessesutton7985 You really think Elon is going to give you a choice?
"you can put that neuralink chip in my brain now elon!" vibes
Using your thoughts alone instead of using your hands and fingers in conjunction to play a game is cheating and takes no skill.
Games like chest, HOI4 and etc. are the only permissible games in which you shouldn’t be required to manually use your fingers.
Curious, couldn't you just customize your keyboard like a hit box and have the same affect?
Yes
Genuinely thinking about removing hella key caps right now lol
Meanwhile, me playing fighting games on keyboard since ever: "only now you realise?!".
Fgc stuff is extremely niche. Like extremely extremely niche, so it’s not surprising that people who got into fgc stuff a few years ago are just finding this out, like me. I got into fgc stuff in 2020.
the intro to the hitbox for some melee players was the only way some were able to play as well.
but it is undoubtably better.
The corked bat reference is perfect.
Well yeah anytime a tool gives an advantage it edges out player skill. IE; 2 players at the same exact skill, but one is using a tool like hitbox to get efficiency while the other is joystick user . The hitbox player will edge out the joystick user since the hitbox allows them to execute moves and things more efficient so lets say it gives them even 1% efficiency over joystick would make the hitbox player win.
In shooting games tournaments they make everyone use same mouse and keyboards. Since some mouses have a poll rate switch on it that allows u to change speed of the mouse cursor, so when they aim down the scope or iron sights, they can click on button on the mouse to slow down the mouse for finer aim for sniping, then when shooting from the hip they increase poll rate of mouse to make the mouse cursor faster and cover more distance with minimal mouse/hand motion/movement. Clearly an advantage of efficiency like the hitbox.
This is nothing new. I've always used a keyboard back in the early 2000's during emulated fighting games on a PC. For me, it was much easier to move directionally than an arcade stick.
If raw input wasn't allowed to improve, we'd all still be cleaning the balls in our mice.
This is just an argument to enforce a controller standardizing measure for these tournaments really. The problem is.... there is a critical difference, and to the game it might just be a faster input... but to players it's a far greater difference.
The problem is that the controls are ... in different specturms, just like how say for fps.... kb/m skilled players will generally put skilled controller users into the ground most the time & using a controller is a detriment. Just like how with racing games you'd not rank a player using an actual steering wheel with one using a KB, or one using controllers.
I think the problem is the organizers don't put in controller standards (Be it KB, or what not) and the advantages of using something that's more robust, contains no risk of system uselessness if broken/damaged, & even more space & separation between keys allowing for faster & cleaner inputs overall, has not been pointed out & yes the lack of foresight after seeing one is the fault of those making the tournaments.
Meh, we're a fing problem as a species.. often doing xyz because we can and taking advantage of something knowing that it comes with an overall benefit in what is almost an unregulated manner.
Truthfully the line between 'hitboxes' and ones that aid you in your gameplay is several times more blurry than the one between the hitbox & it's joystick companion.
Future fighting game should be design around hit box. It healthier for your hands long term.
One problem: most people don't own hitboxes. They own keyboards and controllers. Fighting games should be designed around controllers imo.
@@tenslein8977 that doesn’t change the fact it’s bad for ur hands long term
Bra not eating meat is more healthy, should we all become vegetarian then ?
@@talkingbutt3150 Being a soy boy is unhealthy.
@@Victor-it6bv nothing screams insecurity more than using "soy boy" unironically.
It is a cheat box, you can do things you can't do with a controller or a stick.
What can do on a hitbox that you can't do on a controller?
Its like day and night when I play fighting games on a keyboard v controller. Hitboxes makes sense.
It's on the devs to fix the complaints. Not by banning them, but by making the game in such a way that each are on a level
So if I make a device that enters any combo I want with a single button press, totally legit?
@@Draffut2003 That's already a possibility and that's not allowed.
@@neozon Why shouldn't it be allowed if this is? It should be on the devs to fix the issues, right?