Why Do People Think Using This Controller is Cheating?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2022
- For years, the greatest fighting game masters cut their teeth in arcades and at home with joysticks and six-button setups.
But for more than a decade, a challenger has waited in the shadows. It has widened its influence, drawn in new followers, and spread throughout the fighting game community.
The Hitbox - and a number of other leverless controllers - are rapidly picking up steam, and some of the best players in the world are throwing away their sticks and picking one up.
The problem is that, well… some people think that using one is cheating.
Written by: Josh Bury (@thrown_gauntlet)
Edited by: Brendan Fahey (@Drillbit_)
Hosted by: Dimitri Pascaluta (@DPascaluta) and Colten Gowan (@theonlyzoltan)
Produced by: Niall McCrossan (@niallmccrossan), Colten Gowan (@theonlyzoltan) and Danielle Rosen (@Daniel_Rosen)
Footage courtesy of: pastebin.com/5RJXv4qx
Music used under license from Associated Production Music LLC (”APM”).
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Fundamentally, a hitbox has the exact same advantages that a keyboard would.
Except it’s terrible for ergonomics
@@meathir4921 It's not, otherwise people would play FPS games and MOBAs on hitbox
And yes, you can do so.
@@bruhificationfetish In terms of technical advantages I agree keyboard matches Hitbox. But WASDing is terrible for your hands in terms of how much you have to “pinch” your hands into a smaller space. This is not as significant an issue in other games where inputs/second on the MOVEMENT controls is far lower (other genres have stuff like high mouse inputs/second so people develop carpal tunnel on their right hand for example). Besides, a mouse isn’t natively on a Hitbox, making that comparison is daft. You CAN remap the keys to be further apart on a keyboard, but even then most keyboards have terrible thickness that make you have to put more effort to press compared to bespoke Hitbox/Hitbox-like controllers and at that point if you have money investing in a controller is better for you.
@@meathir4921 you're obviously not a PC gamer dude. WASD moving fast, MUCH faster than you do in the FGC, and constantly, is pretty the norm.
@@meathir4921 ALSO the reason why PC gamers DONT use a hitbox for the movement in other games is because you need a fuck ton more keys in quick access than just movement.
You could get an MMO mouse to compensate, but yeah. You're out you're fucking mind.
An underappreciated but big advantage to leverless designs is the ergonomic differences. I have a metal rod and several pins in my wrist from a motorcycle accident, and it made using stick painful over long sessions for me. Because of the way you use a hitbox design, it has relieved my wrist pain and allowed me to play again without stopping every 30 minutes because I was hurting. A lot of other players with carpal tunnel and similar issues have echoed the sentiment. It's not more comfortable for everyone, but it's a big deal for a lot of us.
That's definitely something to keep in mind. I'd hate to see someone lose a tournament because they had to take a break every 30 minutes because they were in pain.
Ergonomics is the reason I've gone this route, too. I'm a filthy casual at any fighting game I play, but I like the option of being able to use a controller that doesn't hurt me.
Respectfully, while your story is very understandable, you are almost certainly an exceptional case. So should we use the exception and apply it to the majority?
@@willus259 Ok, then I'll ask you this. Across all gaming genres, competitive players will get the equipment or hardware needed (Better Monitor FPS, better Computers, better Internet et,c) to contribute to their gameplay. Why does FGC instead hold back others? Nothing is stopping anyone from getting this controller. The controller doesn't use macros, doesn't play the game for you, doesn't win fundamentals. So just because a niche sector of competitive players refuse to relearn the game using a different controller from what they like/approve, should we hold back the majority from using an option that is better for gameplay and better for players wrists?
@@willus259 They should have the option if they want yes.
man, it's crazy to me how these guys are at a level where a few milliseconds of input speed is such a massive advantage
It's not really so crazy. If your inputs are slower by, say, 2-3 frames, that's the same has having 30-50 more ms of ping in a shooter.
Let's say you want to do something like dash under a jumping opponent on reaction and hit them as they land from behind. That jump might take something like 1/2 a second, or 30 frames. The limit of reaction speed is generally around 15 frames, but that's only for a really simple reaction like "click your mouse when the screen goes from red to green." Meanwhile in fighting games numerous situations can arise at a moment's notice.
So your opponent jumps. If you weren't expecting this jump or ready to react to it, chances are likely that you're not going to counter it and will instead block or try to go for a simpler AA option. But let's assume that you were expecting it, at a base minimum it's going to take you around 15 frames to even register that the jump is happening and to start inputting commands. Then you add the time it takes to actually input those commands, which is one area where the hitbox can have a significant advantage, and the time it takes for your character in the game to actually do the action once you've completed the input. The difference of 2-4 frames can mean the difference between successfully getting under and past the opponent's jump attack, leaving them open to be countered, or reacting too late and getting hit.
@@AirLancer man, i'm not even gonna pretend i understand half of what you're saying, i'm as casual a gamer as they come, i just enjoy watching e-sports... but regarding that 2-3 frames window, asuming that the game is running with 60 FPS animation, that's like 33-50 milliseconds, an average human blinks at 1/10th of a second which is like 2-3 times slower than the window you are talking about, that's not normal in any given metric...
but i guess i kinda understand, like playing an FPS game using keyboard/mouse vs controller, you can move significantly faster with the cardinal directions with a keyboard than a controller's analog stick
The idea is very simple lets use F1 racing as an example. In the beginning all F1 cars use manual stick shift, later on semi automatic paddle shift is introduce, now paddle shift is the normal. It still took about 6 years for the entire racing industry to accept that Paddle shift is more effcient than Manual Stick Shift. At it each shift, it only reduces fraction of second reaction time, over the course of whole race that become minutes.
If one day mind control input is developed for video game, we will also realize Keyboard and mouse is the less ineffcient way of operation. The community is only angry, because they need to adpot to new ideas and that means what they perfected before is loosing effectiveness.
Keyboard/Mouse vs Controller on FPS is a bit different, because the fact most Controller FPS game introduce Aim Assit, it is just simply less accurate on a controller. Some game does not require as much accuracy, that is when controller win.
@@haoye2413 yeah, that'll be very relatable because your average person drive F1 racers on a daily basis... but on that point, while i don't have experience driving F1, i do drive have experience with paddle shifters and manual transmissions... paddle shifters vs manual stick is different though, of course paddle shifters are more efficient since you don't have to clutch and you don't have to take your hands off the wheel to move your hands towards the stick, so the time difference from pulling the paddle to stepping on the clutch while physically moving the gear stick are several seconds, while the controllers have time differences in the milliseconds 2-3x faster than blinking, so you really cannot compare them like that
and you really can't make a case with a theoretical mind-control input controllers, since like you said it hasn't been invented
and the lateral movement on the keyboard does make a difference, for example there are games like cyberpunk 2077 where you need to double input a direction button on the keyboard to make a quick step vs doing a double input in a joystick or clicking the L3 button first before going to a direction, it's much faster on a keyboard
@@jervey123 See its not that crazy, you are fully aware that milliseconds of control difference actually make a huge difference. You highly underestimate your awareness skill.
It's funny how the FGC hated on keyboards for years, then someone invented a glorified keyboard with arcade buttons and now everyone says it's OP
so the fgc still continued hating on keyboard. at least its consistent
Glad you're still making FGC content, I thought those content were long gone
Fr, I was wondering if they're doing content on the previous EVO but it seems kinda too late now so maybe it'll never happen. lol
@@liandryss905 They did a whole freaking livestream for all if Evo, where you been at?
Nah. Its just rare that anything newsworthy happens anymore
YeAh but it’s in a topic that’s been recycled 1000 times so they need to do better to cater to the actual fgc
Their video on knee's championship at evo ain't that old
This is the kind of content I subscribed for. I understand the need to keep up with the drama but pieces like this are the bread and butter of the channel, in my humble opinion.
Truer words have never been spoken
yeap dunno why they stick to much with twitch streamers 🤑🤮 same thing why i sub here, fgc content were great and there's a lot of past event in the community and yet no updates
From an ergonomic perspective, when you move a joystick, your wrist and even your arm need to coordinate. Additionally, the force exerted on the joystick also affects the entire controller, especially when you operate it on your lap, it's difficult to avoid side effects. The advantage of operating a Hitbox is that you can control the direction solely through finger movement and pressing, which greatly simplifies the control process and avoids the side effects caused by the movement of the wrist, arm, body, and the controller.
That's incredibly wrong.
The main difference between pad, stick box and hit box is apm.
On pad you are using 2-4 fingers.
On stick box you are using wrist + 3-5 fingers
On hit box you are using upto 10 fingers depending on model and preferences.
Obviously max apm is not even comparable to each other.
And the only problem - the more fingers you are using the harder is it to coordinate them - but that solves easily with practice.
This isn't really true. In theory what you said makes sense, but often times good players aren't mashing all the way to the far ends of their sticks. On top of this, because of how sticks are designed, it's more of *either* shoulder or wrist, not necessarily both.
On top of that the buttons are so big that even if you do mash your stick into the gate, there's no chance you miss or reduce your timing accuracy
Moving the joystick does not shift the entire controller on your lap - most quality arcade sticks are weighted in order to prevent that.
Melee is having similar controversies surrounding the hit box. I didn’t realize it was also affecting other FGCs
melee isn't fgc
@@mickaelferri1513
Insert laughing risitas
@@mickaelferri1513it's a fighting game, just a different genre
@@mickaelferri1513it is and one of the most popular.
Gatekeeping at its finest, ill guess you never played melee, i play botg sf3 and smash, and theyre much more simikar than appears
I have been playing SF4 on a Keyboard since 2009( WASD+Numpad Layout) and whenever I told people Keyboard is THE MOST OP controller you can have, they all just laugh and now everyone is riding the bandwagon more than a decade later. 😪😪
I've got some combos and matches uploaded, so u can see execution is not the part where I fail much.
I was the one laughing on a friend that sayd me the same thing a decade ago
Because keyboards have bad ergonomics compared to Hitboxes or their kin
same!!! keyboards allow me to do complex combos which i cant do on stick
To be fair there’s a lot of differences between a keyboard and the box. The main difference here is that The buttons on the box are more responsive and and better for executing frame perfect moves. Also the alignment of keys on a keyboard or less ergonomic then how the buttons are set up on the box. Also since you only need a certain amount of buttons they can be larger than keys and therefore easier to hit in rapid succession.
@@coasterthekid8867 I agree with everything except by the part about hitboxes being more responsive. If you use a mechanical keyboard with linear switches (e.g. Cherry MX red switches) it's going to be very fast as the same level as a sanwa button.
wish you had brought up the "Optimal Potemkin Hitbox" it is really pushing the limits in interesting ways
would have been perfect during the section with Aris talking about pushing it to the extreme
You can either fully restrict the players to the exact same controllers and have them specified, supplied, serviced, secured, and supervised by tournament organizers, or you can leave the input choices completely up to the players use whatever input devices and control schemes they wish.
The space between those two extremes will always be filled with players trying to bend and break the rules to their advantage, and the further you go into the murky waters in between, the harder it becomes to consistently and completely enforce whatever rules you have in place, making fair competition impossible
This goes not just for fighting games, but for EVERY competitive video game that depends on reflex and skill, including FPS games, racing games, MOBAs, and RTS
Its crazy how many ppl get upset over input devices like hitbox when pads are VERY similar to hitbox. Legit just swipe left thumb over d pad and hit a button. Guess that means ppl should start arguing for a ban against everything except a stick
It's really interesting how fighting games are a bit like F1 racing where we're trying to optimize as much as humanly possible to where 2-4 frame inputs are a massive advantage due to the inherent nature of stick/pad needing to travel.
Based reimu enjoyer.
Also, interesting how much more complex the issue became in the Smash scene than in the general FCG. Most fighting games only register 8 directions but Melee cares about the full range and easy access to perfect full length wavedashes or other angle dependent tech could be unfair. Hax basically wrote a freaking PhD thesis to explain the angles he gave the B0XX access to.
Where is the raymoo in the video
@@wertyxq3468 6:21
and ina poster
@@kraizerxthesimp46 Korean comfort woman
Also 5:41
Enjoying the sassy ghost is pretty based
I love how articulate Aris sounds when you catch him at the right moments. Whenever he's educating his chat and not yelling at them the dude lets slip how wise he really is lol.
hobo Gimli do have esoteric knowledge mere mortals dream of knowing.
He's wise for a 48 year old
Hes still wrong
@@FGirao haHAA so funny
"What was that?." "Don't talk to me."
I've been using ;=up /=down .=left '=right and asd=light-to-heavy punch zxc-light to heavy kick since the mid 90s. It's interesting to me how keyboards have gone from being derided as an inferior input device to arcade sticks to now being labeled as cheating. I'm surprised it took this long for people to figure out the limits of the stick compared to key's/buttons for directional input.
I'm pretty big on peripherals and am an Azeron user.
I own a mayflash arcade stick with the Sanwa parts. I do recognize that hitbox is clearly superior and would perhaps prefer to use one, but I decided to stick to the stick for the sake of gaining arcade skills. If I'm traveling about and come across an arcade machine I want to be proficient at using it.
hitbox is not superior its broken that's why it exists. keyboards also should never have been a viable peripheral for fighting games even on pc. being able to physically press socd in a fighting game breaks the game and the way the inputs are meant to be received. other wise they would have used all button cabinets from the creation of 1v1 fighting games like streetfighter and others like it but wen they tested it they found they needed to use a stick. and home consoles of the time for sness sega playstation what have you they all have a physical pivot under the d-pad to make it impossible to press socd on the D-pad because it breaks most games that use the d-pad if you can press socd.
Bro 14:33. Imagine a world where the hitbox is outclassed by the guitar hero controller. EVO 2030, all players have modded their guitars so light is strum down and heavy is up. The finals two players are duking it out by making sick riffs on their guitars as sonic booms and hadoukens fly across the big screen
PEAK GAMING first thing I thought of when I read this was the guitar hero episode on south park episode 😂
lol
Another unspoken advantage is how much better hitboxes are for your wrists compared to a stick. I think that's a good thing though, why should you risk carpal tunnel with a stick that's not as ergonomically sound if you do want to play fgs in the long run?
Meh, play some KOF on keyboard or Hitbox.
You’re gonna want your stick back.
I don't know, many players have switched to HitBox and then gotten carpal tunnel, it's no better for your wrists
Hands get sore af playing hitbox for like 20mins, can play on stick for hours and no pain
For me it's always the hand controlling the buttons that starts to hurt first
My right hand when using a Fight Stick, and my left when using Mouse and Keyboard
I don't think it's better for your wrists at all. I've heard or plenty of people who started to develop carpeltunnel after swapping to HitBox
@@HeavyMetalLink05 It depends on your posture. If you are leaning your hand on the base of the hitbox you'll probably have the same wrist issues as stick. You have to hover your hand over the buttons. Then you should be able to play for hours without pain.
This whole time I could have been playing fighting games on my PC with a keyboard lol. I thought the keyboard was inferior but this hit box is basically a streamlined keyboard.
Same same.. 😂😂😂😂😂
LOL.KB only $10 ++++
it's literally just pushbuttons
I'm glad you brought up that some inputs are easier on stick. Goldlewis in strive was entirely designed with stick in mind, playing him on box is very counter intuitive. Not saying its impossible, it's just far less natural.
excellent video guys you only missed one point, a hitbox / keayboad is more gentle to the wrist and other joints and ligaments in the hand, that is also a reason why some people choose hitbox even if they are not hardcore competitive players
That's true. Also the reason why some stick players WAYYYY back in the day switched to pad for a while when they had a wrist injury like qudans
Not for me though. My left ring finger hurts after prolonged hitbox usage. And i'm never tired using my fightstick.
It's really depends on the person.
@@MichaelHarto yep it depends where you have tendonitis, sorry to hear that mate
@@jorge86rodriguez well it's much better than if i use a gamepad.. since i'm a dpad user, the base of my left thumb hurts like a b*tch after 30 minutes of playing 😔. Man, aging sucks..
this is another factor that's overlooked, Daigo is like 40 now, do people really think this mans wrists will last another 15-20 years playing competitively on a standard arcade joystick.
As long as they're physical inputs aka not automatic locked in buttons, it's fine
Like a macro?
The problem is though that there are some things that ONLY the Hitbox can do that other types of controllers can't. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom / Flash Kick (from Street Fighter) when done correctly on a Hitbox, will ALWAYS come out faster than on a normal arcade stick (It's one of the reasons Daigo likes using it so much.)
So while both a Hitbox and an arcade stick are both physical inputs, the Hitbox just straight up has an advantage that other controllers don't.
@@zaidansaid1516 you can do the same thing on ps4 controller, in fact the ps4 controller actually has access to way more shortcuts than a hitbox, but no one complains about that because complaining about something that gives only a very slight and marginal advantage is stupid
@@roadyrock the biggest problem is practicality. There is a reason we are not seeing pad players doing these inputs. Its to hard on pad. Additionally just look at execution or even movement in some games like Tekken. It is a clear advantage to play hitbox to anyone paying attention. There is a reason the pros are moving to it since it gives a clear advantage. So the whole "technically pad can do it to" argument just holds zero water to me.
@@TaylorThought Pad doing charge tricks is done at a top level lol; both pad and Hitbox have always had this advantage
People who call them cheatboxes are just mad that they are the optimal way to play fighting games and they have to toss aside 20 years of stick memory.
To be fair, the HitBox is more ergonomically sound compared to a bat-top stick on top of the travel time. Also, if you were to remove the stick, you'd find, underneath on the control deck, four dip-switch buttons attached to the base of that stick. I see it as there's room for both control schemes. People should be free to pick which of the two they feel is right for them.
Last Input Priority seems to have the most advantage. Hold back button without releasing it and just push the front button + punch button anytime to perform a sonic boom.
That’s why guile is my new fave ever since I got a hitbox. I used to hate charge characters but sonic booms and flash kicks are so easy now. There’s even a unique thing that happens in SF6 on hitbox that when you press up + kick twice after a knee bazooka it will do a lvl 1 super without needing to charge.
Gonna be interesting to see how fightsticks develop to keep up. We already have the crossup and things such as the antagonist (which i believe is shown at 13:13) help to combat the travel time differences. There's also stuff like the anklegator where you can have physical macros so I'm excited to see how it develops
The antagonist is clearly cheating because it’s a programmed macro to alternate your input.
Macros is definitely cheating tho...
i think if a controller it self is different enough to define a meta and spark controversy. then a standard should be set for tournaments as easy as that, also it should be standard anyways because tournaments shouldn't have situations where you blame the hardware should be even and putting skill against one another not on who has a better set up or who spent more money.
It's kinda ironic how for decades these games were only made with sticks and gamepads in mind, and noone cared how it would play on a keyboard. Until it turned out that a keyboard is better even in games like these LOL
@@em_the_bee yeah super weird
@@em_the_bee even funnier since everyone has a keyboard, it's much more affordable than a stick or even an official gamepad
@@BortaMaga not everyone has a gaming keyboard
@@guyfauks2576 I never said "gaming". Actually, I get better executions on my cheap generic membrane keyboard over my much more expensive mechanical one.
This is very interesting! I do have an arcade stick, but it is more for nostalgic reasons. I used to be fascinated by the arcade.
Did you even grow up in a arcade
I started playing fighting games late 2017 coming from FPS genre.
Started with an arcade stick and it was fine. In 2019 I got to try out a demo unit at Combo Breaker. I was sold instantly. To me, Hitbox is just more comfortable and ergonomic. If it were to be banned, I would just stop playing offline and only play online with it.
being able to physically press socd in fighting games breaks the way fighting games directional inputs work even with tournament legal socd cleaning... it is and always will be cheating : (
What I think people use more hitbox is because back then arcade stick can be expensive they only can afford keyboard as an alternative but consider that there's a controller called mixbox (which is hitbox with keycaps) people took this more because arcade button has very precise input
Sup cuz
Arcade sticks are significantly cheaper though.
@@gregorymirabella1423 everyone already has a keyboard. A pc gamer only buys a separate gear to enter tourneys that play on playstation
Is there mods that help with sensitivity of the stick or other mods in fight sticks? Because to me hitbox would just be a logical continuation to that and given those FGC games take place in a 2D plane at least control wise wouldn’t it would make the most sense to have it laid out in buttons to avoid mid-inputs and other decrease movement. It could be the same thing as in melee and other smash games where if you don’t have a controller that would help your character by fixing things like Snapback other things that would help specific character mains it makes sense to do that to avoid errors and give players advantages.
Love how the editor had Reimu up behind him. Based
Another thing to consider about hitboxes is how much easier they are on your hands and wrists.
This depends on the person. KOF is brutal, and designed around sticks.
The funny thing is he mentioned cork bats and we now know that cork bats don’t help that much. The weight change may lead to faster swings, but less velocity off the bat. Obviously hit boxes actually give an advantage,
The latest data on corked bats is that they're actually worse, not by much but still worse.
It's funny, but not shocking that a FGC dude isn't exactly a big sports guy.
i actually disagree, and they highlighted this in the video as well. You cannot input a half circle input as fast on a hitbox than you can on a joystick. Which means fighting game characters that have inputs close to each cardinal direction will always be better on a joystick. A joystick is used in military fighter jets for this very reason. Additionally to repeat an input means you have to hit the same button twice, while with a joystick you can hold/spin and even roll directionally and it is automatically using multiple inputs. The only major difference outside of the obvious of using opposite cardinal directions for combos on a hitbox, is the level of precision under any circumstance to not miss an input which the hitbox does not punish you for compared to the stick.
Aris has mostly bad opinions, I wish they didn't use him as any sort of reference for this video.
@@bipolarminddroppings To be fair, that's potentially down to the fact that Baseball is such a momentary and exact sport at the MLB level that having a bat you're not used to ruins your muscle memory and makes you worse at swinging. A third of your time to react to the pitch is lost to your brains reaction time. You essentially have just enough time to think "yes" or "no" when a fastball is thrown at 98mph. You don't have time to adjust your swing mid pitch. So using a different bat messes up the incredibly precise muscle memory you've built up, meaning any potential advantage from a cork bat is ruined by the fact you're mis hitting most of the time now.
You could already play the games on keyboards. A Hitbox is just a more ergonomic keyboard, tbh.
I moved to a hitbox just because I couldn't do on the arcade stick stuff like hyper-jump, or dashes that required opposite direction swapping, only on a pad, and by flicking it.
I'm not a competitive player of fighting games, but it just allows me to actually play with the intended moves while not using a keyboard that is cumbersome. Though I recall playing Mortal Kombat 1/2 on a keyboard way back when :D
Many argued that keyboard are also cheating for basically all the same reasons Hitbox.
@@aureateseigneur5317 And thats the stupidest argument ever tbh. Its like console players calling pc players cheaters.
@@JayceCH. Many PC players are cheaters, the sphere is rampant with them. Lots of legit players to tho.
With that said, until guards for things like multi-directional holding where implemented, playing on Keyboard was cheating, no different then Hitbox. You had access to a controller that let you do things completely unintended by the developers because your input method wasn't ever supposed to be used in the first place.
@@JayceCH. there is a reason why competitions separate keyboard + mouse players from controller players, it is cheating to play with a keyboard and a mouse from a controller perspective, that's just simple fact, nothing stupid about it at all, you should educate yourself better before speaking...
Honestly like Hit Boxes from an Accessibility standpoint, Gamepads can get really cramped after long sessions and Sticks while significantly better can still have their issues comparative to Box. I think as long as everyone has the option its fair game, SOCD Cleaning on a Hardware and Software level is only gonna get better and other controllers will still have their fans despite it.
All the fgc coverage makes me happy
What wasn’t explained was that the gafrobox that Daigo got banned with had duplicated buttons.
And that most board people use in hitbox especially brook boards have socd cleaning already on the board. No one is using zero delay usb boards for hitbox because of their input delay.
I'm planning on building myself one just to see if it will reduce the wrist pain that inevitably comes with spending too much time in the lab around a game launch. and building stuff is fun
I'll stick with my arcade stick because that's what's fun for me
im always surprised about the socd system cuz they talk about the option they use for opposite cardinal directions are the only one that can be implemented. I thought that prioritizing the initial cardinal direction and disabling the opposite direction if inputted after would emulate the lever stick feel as you still need to let go of the initial direction to input the opposite, like how a lever would have to go to neutral first before hitting the opposite direction. Is there something im missing with this idea, or is it difficult to program this?
The way you've said is more expensive to do because inputs on console-compatible controllers are all analogue, so for any precise temporal logic you need a tiny CPU while L+R=N/U+D=U is just $1 logic gate chip.
@@chupasaurus that's just… entirely wrong, on every axis. What they are suggesting is just as easy to implement as anything else.
What you're missing is mostly cultural. Hit Box Arcade popularised U+D=U/L+R=N so well that most players now accept that without question. However I don't love your proposal, because it still allows you to do an instant transition from e.g. L to R with no N frame in between, without any difficulty. In my opinion U+D=U is the big offender here, because it makes things possible that literally cannot be done on stick, e.g. sidestepping from crouch in Tekken. Personally I'm interested in trying a system where going from e.g. L to R without perfect timing forces one frame of N in between, to better emulate the behaviour of a lever, which is hard (but not impossible) to force from one extreme to the other with no neutral frame.
@@chupasaurus games already do what chu suggested, maybe not for socd inputs. Like in guilty gear rev 2. if you press two buttons at the same time, the lighter input is priorized unless it interferes with a system mechanic like Fautless defence or something along those lines. Heck, strive does this with every input aside from the dust button which will just prioritize dust if your burst is spent.
If you want to try a new controller, here are the best advantages I found in some of them:
- Stick: good for circular (half circle, full circle, 180°, 1080°, etc.) and clean inputs.
- d Pad: fast, smooth and silent movement. Personally I think Z motion is easier too.
- Hitbox: save your wrist and thumb.
Dragon punch is instant on hitbox. You can walk forward dp. I can do dp 8 different ways on a hitbox in sfv.
Hitbox isn’t intuitive at all for KOF.
@@chronology556 I used to play kof with keyboard. It's easier imo, but you need to adapt to certain inputs. Hitbox is the same.
Imo i feel like leverless is good for fighting game like street fighter, though not the case for game like tekken that requires circular input
Imagine saying pressing ASD (half circle) in a semi-chord manner is HARDER than flicking a God Damn stick. It's like light year faster to input, wth?
Didn't realize new video was up. Thanks for the FGC video.
And diago wanted to use his own version of a hitbox, wich allowed him to throw a sonic boom while walking forward 🤣
It didnt do that but yeah it was the gafrobox. You cant do a literal walk boom because thats not how charge and input reading works in recebt games.
I found the concept of the hitboxes easier I even tried to map SFV and IV with my keyboard but always ran into problems or the config would get wiped out after every use... so I stopped trying to customize my keyboard like a hitbox.
You forgot to add a very important Aris clip, but let me quote it:
"If it were up to me even pads would be banned and everyone will play on arcade sticks".
I am also of that opinion, but alienating pad/hitbox/keyboard players is impossible. Hitbox will be the near future unfortunately. I've played on stick for more than 10 years now and the advantage in some games of being able to block much faster than an arcade stick player (ESPECIALLY online) is gigantic. An example would be a Milia player in guilty gear rev 2 running at you and pressing 2K. That thing comes at you so fast that sometimes my boomer hands can't even block on time.
All in all I am of the opinion that fighting games should be played on levers, because that's how they were designed, but it sucks when it goes in the different direction of "who will bend the rules the most". Maybe if they made arcade sticks cheaper this wouldn't be such a problem, but it is what it is.
True
@6:25 This dude is a Reimu Endou and Ina fan.
After many many years on classic lever, I finally bought a hitbox. It takes time to get used to it, but just for hitting those diagonals and shortcuts it's worth it.
I think sticks are way cooler. But as far as button inputs and having the best tools for the job, making the switch to hitbox seems alot like switching from controller to mouse and keyboard in a shooter game. Its different and the muscle memory needs to be rebuilt but theres ulitmately more room for you to perform better and improve your output.
It depends on where you see the skill of gameplay. Is it on how the stick is waggled or is it on understanding and reacting to what's happening in the game itself? Personally im of the view that simpler and more accessible controls level the playing field externally to raise the level of competition within the game itself.
Fair Point. I even wonder "why theres no hadoken button" (no sarcasm at all.)
I agree
I play fighting games on keyboard, pretty much for this reason. A lot of inputs are just easier to do, I can just type out my quarter circles and such rather than spinning a stick around wildly. I’m sure if I practiced with stick I’d get decent with it, but why do that when keyboard is just fine
Which switch do you think is the best?
Speed? Silver? Red? Brown?
@@fajaradi1223 keyboard speed, idk. I have a laptop lol
Hitbox is faster than keyboard because it is ergonomical and the jump is on another place, meaning you can hit it with 2nd hand.
Spent my post Mortal Kombat Trilogy years playing fighting games on PC, so... "Hit boxes" were always kind of a thing. From my experience though, hit boxes do give more precise directional input but the timing requires more practice than a traditional controller or joystick. You can screw up inputs just as easily on a hit box if your fingers are even a little off.
When I first got a hitbox a few years ago (which arose because of an injury to both wrists from boxing) for the ergonomic standpoint. It was a huge learning curve for a few months but I liked it because I could play for longer than an hour without that searing stiffness.
At my local gaming lounge, I did get some hate but that mostly came from people who didn't know how the HB worked. And from the people who got curious and tried it, they said they hated the feeling or it was difficult to gage the timing of thier inputs. Others said it was awesome. I think it depends on preference.
Though I worry about people going in and changing the SOCD in the board. It should be anything else but neutral.
Change is often scary, and it's innevitable.
Sticks won't go anywhere immediately anyway lmao
I believe it will come sooner rather than later. The new generation uses gamepad and kb playing games. And without the influence of older people they wouldn't touch a joystick. Look at sonicfox and punk. They use gamepad. And they are now considered Old players.
@@badassgenevideos its a generational thing, oldheads grew up with arcades and sticks, newer gens grew up with consoles and pad, the newest gen is probably growing up with pc and mnk more than pad so i think we'll see people adapting their keybinds to a hitbox style layout if possible, fightsticks will never leave the greater fgc canon but i think we'll start to see more new kids learning on mnk because they dont have the money for a pad or stick, and the pros will slowly move over to hit boxes if they remain legal because of the familiarity of stick style inputs
In other words, some older people (not all of them, even newer can be one) are whining babies who always find an excuse to don't accept something new.
The older generation of games were all arcade ports, so there was a strong logic behind using a lever. The newer generation games are mostly straight to console(Tekken 7 and the 1st version of SF4 were really the last bastions). They're made with consideration to the fact that most people will be using a Pad, so that makes a huge difference. Sticks won't be going anywhere because they're fun, but I think from a strictly competitive standpoint they'll be going more the way of "The only guy who shows up all Natty at the Mr. Olympia contest" at least at the Elite of Elite level where every single /ms makes a difference.
Reimu and Ina on 5:40 lol
Coming from a card game background. Just make nostalgic arcade game stick format for those that want to play. And then The regular competitive scene can be dominated by the meta
I personally use a pad but have considered getting a stick (just cuz it seems fun), but I have tried playing with a friend's traditional fightstick multiple times and it starts hurting my wrist with only minutes of playing, which I feel like wouldnt be the issue with a leverless/hitbox.
Obviously Im a casual and it's clear that hitbox does give advantages at top level where it's a different situation and it's a hard question to answer.
Interesting video, love the fg coverage as always!
so because your wrist cant hack it might as well let them cheat with these hack sticks?
Hurting your wrist means the lever is too stiff for you. If it was your own stick, you should have bought a softer grommet. The first thing to do when getting into stick is customizing the lever bc it's all about the feel and no two hands are the same and we all have our own tolerance. Playing on a stiffer lever than your hand can handle will slow your learning by five times from my own experience
A small correction, the controller Daigo wanted to use in Combo Breaker was a much more devious thing than a regular hitbox. From what I remember, it had multiple jump, right, and left buttons which allowed Daigo to dash and charge at incredible speeds.
Overall, while I think upholding a standard like allowing a single button for each input should be there to prevent thing from escalating to ridiculous levels, banning a controller whose only difference is using 4 buttons instead of a lever is kinda stupid.
They should be banned in the older games because they couldn't be designed accordingly but nowadays all we need is the games to handle things properly. After all, it isn't like a secret technology provided by aliens to select few individuals and doesn't require a secret technique that requires a 6th finger. Anyone who is a serious competitor can buy and use one.
Agreed
Due the attention he got from that version of the controller being banned everyone just assumed all stickless setups were made with extra buttons and shortcuts and shit when it cant be further from the truth. A standard setup is just left+right=neutral, up+down=up the rest is standard 6-8 attack buttons layouts there are No extra buttons specifically for diagonal inputs or extra directional inputs those are typically options things on custom builds or the hitbox crossup for example those buttons are specifically for doing cheeky shit and if anything that's the real issue imo.
Yea his gafrobox had duplicate input which was against tournament rules.
@@RetroPillowcase Ban Pads then... All the guile tech you can do on a hitbox is legitimately doable on a ps4 pad.
@@oussamaokbi for sfv they specifically couldn't ban pads because it's the default controller for the ps4. Idk if Sony had a say in that. Actually the ds4 isn't socd cleaned if you use pad and analog, afaik
Basically the hitbox is a keyboard with the minimum amount of buttons needed, it just means fighting games started out with an inefficient controller design and took decades to finally settle on the most efficient one.
Yep, I honestly love playing fighting games with movements mapped to keyboard. I don’t really like joysticks as they tend to wiggle too much and give inputs that I don’t intend.
There have been controllers with stick and buttons for decades. Why isn’t anyone using a controller that has both options? I dont understand why people are picking one or the other
@@MrDCbro Well it basically boils down to legacy skill. For decades arcades are the main battle and training ground for pros so they are trained and used to arcade sticks which are mainly designed to be heavy duty and can take alot of abuse from customers and not exactly for maximum playing efficiency.
Because fighting games are a genre that builds on legacy skill, arcade trained pros end up winning in tournaments for decades with their stick skills, causing a logical assumption as well as bias that sticks are supposedly the way to play fighting games.
Only until the mid 2000s when fighting games start shifting towards home consoles and PCs with online play that people start realising that controls and keyboards are also not just viable and can be more efficient in some ways.
So hitbox was developed from then onwards.
@@GuyWithAnAmazingHat thank you for your detailed explanation, but I don't see how you can't go from playing stick to playing a controller that still has a stick BUT /AND also has buttons that you can just avoid and never use. My understanding from this video is that stick players think other controllers are easier to use and therefore cheating. I think it just makes sense to have a controller with both options, and if someone feels like showing off, they can use the stick exclusively for bragging rights. It would be a sad world to live in if there was no innovation to gaming.
Another good reason to add a stick above the 3 arrow keys on the hitbox would be the flexibility it would have for various tournaments and different fighting games. For example a tournament that decides to only allow stick, anyone caught using the buttons instead of stick can be called a cheater, Or if a specific game developer has specified what control type their game was designed for, anyone using another controller for the game can be called a cheater.
My opinion on stick players "Arguments" are, they're really just complaints. If it's not specified in the rules to use one type of controller than it's not cheating, you stick players just wish it was so you can feel better about getting sh*t on
That or the "inefficiency" is a core part of the game mechanics and removing it will reduce fighting games to an exercise in rote memorization. It would be much easier to win at tennis with a cannon, so I guess the racket is just "inefficient".
honestly i think that a hitbox allows for more accessibility for people , like i have wrist problems and controller and arcade stick both hurt my wrist and hand but i am fine using a keyboard so something like a hitbox seems great for me as its just a super simplified keyboard
This is similar to things in speed running (like using an nes controller). Being able to press two buttons is something that is left to TAS, but people aren’t doing it because physically you cannot on the controller.
People refuse to understand that exact point: doing things that you can't on a regular controller like pressing 2 opposite directions at the same time.
But that would be a hit box without socd cleaning. Which it has on a hardware and software level.
A Mario 1 speed runner on hitbox would be a god.
crazy mind-blowing news on how the fighting community just learned keyboard exists and it is superior
right 😂 i figured that out back in 2006.
It's almost as if a lever that sistematically destroys your wrist over time and that's burdened by a high travel time in a genre where 1/60th of a second could make the difference between winning or losing is an inefficient way to play fighting games.
God, this community is so full of donkeys. I can't believe this topic is an actual controversy
If the game is designed for a controller that allows only one directional input at a time then that is part of the game's design. Using an input device that allows multiple directions to be inputted will give you an advantage because it is subverting the game's design. I predict that going forward, fighting games will have code that prevents unintended input patterns, and hitbox/keyboard will lose it's edge.
@@silverywingsagain games already have sodc lol and hitboxes have them mechanically built in
Hitbox is a joystick-shaped keyboard, thats a big distinction. Keyboard is not good ergonomically, its designed for typing.
using the hitbox makes characters created for using joystick like guile with charging moveset is why hitbox is considered cheating. It allows you execute charge attacks without the constraints of the joystick inputs , which the charging ability is based on with said constraints of using joystick. It makes those characters like guile god tier by allowing the execution of charge attacks split second like when the AI is playing as Guile.
Seen hit box since like 2011 in scv and in that game 236236 a+b+k was super.
Hit box changed that cause the input leniency was so huge, you could hold 2 and double tap 6 and the super would come out lol
Another factor that I'm coming to grips with now is disability that Hitbox might just be what I'll need to keep playing and enjoying fighting games. I've always been a 6-face button gamepad player for SF and honestly have only been able to perform well on SC2 with a fight stick. It was never a lack of wanting to use it, I just never was able to develop the speed i had on controller with a fight stick. Now that I've developed MS, I'm starting to see a delay in the reaction time for my hands in general. I've become rather curious about the potential of seeing if a hitbox lets me try to regain my speed playing these games. The alternative unfortunately is for me to never be able to play fighting games again...and that's not something I'm ready to do.
that is also the explanation & reasonings that certain FPS players use when using xim or chronus!
😢
The "legacy games won't get patched" thing seems so simple to solve, in the same way that anti-cheat software would handle it. If any competitive environment requires software to be installed that interprets the SODC a certain way and this is what is then transmitted to the game, then wouldn't that instantly standardise whatever rule they choose to adopt for all legacy games?
Very nicely put together and thorough video. As a PC player, this discussion seems a bit ridiculous to me, because Hitbox is essentially dumbed down keyboard, so of course it should be allowed, if keyboards already are, given that Street Figther is multiplatform game. Hell, even motion controls and steering wheels should be allowed, so players can use, whatever they have at hand.
But I understand, that competitive gaming complicates things and there is a lot of legacy and tradition involved as well, with all of those Arcade machines and their history. Another thing is how intuitive controls are for new player, the stick definitely has an advantage there imo.
I had a taste of the hitbox advantages with the loss of my stick (sold it due to poverty) and having to use my keyboard for SFIV, the layout on a keyboard is not as ergo but its really good and once youre used to it it is so much more satisfying
Essentially they need to figure out a standard way that commands can be input, period. That means once again going back to side by side identical inputs. No programming button combos( it eliminates an entire layer of possibly incorrect inputs) hit box multiple inputs and instead of 4 directions buttons increase it to 8 doing a dragon punch that’s three button presses, or d,df,f on a dpad ot stick simple. Either Everyone is equal or use whatever the hell you want.
The main question is if they are able to hook up the brain to the controller, would that be cheating, as you'd have basically no latency between brain to finger?
I think if developers should build fighting games with analog sticks in mind where you can sneak > walk > run will make normal joypad controllers the norm again unless arcade sticks use analog joysticks light flight sticks, I guess Smash does this, but other fighters could do this as well, however it would be a pain to QA.
the corked bat analogy is PERFECT
the intro to the hitbox for some melee players was the only way some were able to play as well.
but it is undoubtably better.
The corked bat reference is perfect.
Well yeah anytime a tool gives an advantage it edges out player skill. IE; 2 players at the same exact skill, but one is using a tool like hitbox to get efficiency while the other is joystick user . The hitbox player will edge out the joystick user since the hitbox allows them to execute moves and things more efficient so lets say it gives them even 1% efficiency over joystick would make the hitbox player win.
In shooting games tournaments they make everyone use same mouse and keyboards. Since some mouses have a poll rate switch on it that allows u to change speed of the mouse cursor, so when they aim down the scope or iron sights, they can click on button on the mouse to slow down the mouse for finer aim for sniping, then when shooting from the hip they increase poll rate of mouse to make the mouse cursor faster and cover more distance with minimal mouse/hand motion/movement. Clearly an advantage of efficiency like the hitbox.
love the fgc and smash content keep it up!
if people say hitbox controller is cheating than nobody talk about how a pc/gaming keyboard is actually cheating in fighting games because you have almost the same input funtion as the hitbox and except you can add hotkeys and macros
it's not even almost it literally 1:1 is the same function as a hitbox full stop, just the form factor of your buttons is different and yeah there's macros too, which can let you do a whole combo with the press of a key
Any function on an input device of any kind that allows the user to perform multiple actions with one button press (scripted combos, turbo, or multiple buttons macros not inherently in the game) are universally banned in tournament play at virtually every level.
@@Audriolen well the thing with keyboards is that the macros are stored on software in the user's pc so like they can't use macros unless they're playing in an online bracket but it can still ruin the integrity of online brackets
Yep, honestly I doubt many online games and tournaments don’t have Keyboard players constantly. Any game that’s on PC has to have keyboard options and most consoles accept keyboards now.
Not all keyboards have socd. Most hitbox do. Also most keyboards don’t allow any simultaneous input.
I watched a video ages ago and I remember seeing something similar but was designed by a guy who hurt his wrists and couldn’t play properly anymore, he worked with a company that didn’t listen to any input he said they just wanted to use his name and so he went off and made it his own..
This could all be avoided if they used magnetic sticks over analog pot ones…
You could reset on release, the input upon a single magnetic potentiometer increment increase or decrease aka minuscule microscopic movement in the opposite direction it can change the input rather than the stick having to return to centre and then trigger the opposite pot on in the opposing direction
I was hoping the whole video if you will talk about ergonomic does the hitbox is better for the hands and wrist?
Aris giving a 200 word essay in the video, alright
In a fighting game the less mistake you make the more easier to win, by using hitbox you reduce your input error leading you to more easier combos and even greater precision compared to stick. So playing with a hitbox is riding a faster safer bike with training wheels, while playing with a stick is like riding a slower and more inefficient bike.
It's not really training wheels, knowledge is still a factor
Not being able to input your controls safely sounds to me like a fundamental issue in itself. Standards of engineering are built upon not letting the user make mistakes.
I'm a keyboard 😅 user it's easy to use from street fighter, marvel vs Capcom, king of fighters, Tekken, guilty gear it has faster input than joystick less delay in movement ☺️ especially zangief move in street fighter 3
If the program can deny L&R (U&D) simultaneous input, and modify it to the point that the previous input must be removed before the subsequent input can take effect, it can maintain fairness and prevent the spinning piledriver from being abused.
I feel like this conversation needs to include input buffers. I'm mostly familiar with Guilty Gear, and I've used an Odin (basically WASD instead of a lever) but primarily use a lever/joystick. In Strive, the buffer is so large that doing, say a DP or a Flash Kick out of block stun or on wakeup is done instantaneously no matter the controller used. Now in a game like Xrd or other older games with a much tighter buffer window, you might be in a position where you're in neutral instead of holding a direction, but in modern games I think it's more or less a wash with certain exceptions. Other improvements, like a dash macro, also reduce any advantage a button box might have.
As someone who started playing fighting games on a keyboard, then switching to pad and eventually investing in a traditional stick. I feel like leverless controllers are the perfect evolution as they don't hurt my hands and inputs feel more precise and less unintuitive to new players.
i play tekken on controller on the d-pad, and it HURTS my hands after just like 5 minutes, so i swapped to keyboard, and it was much easier but it just felt weird since either the corners of my laptop were constantly stabbing into my arms or i had to raise my hands in a weird way, then i swapped to a hitbox with a keyboard design, and i must say, that was such an amazing swap
It’s cheating because the people using levers are mad that you don’t want to spend months building muscles memory with a stick that you’re only ever going to use for fighting games
Watch this in 1.25x speed.
U changed my life bro
Made it better
I think this argument falls apart as soon as you introduce the fact that you can use a keyboard to play these games. A hitbox is functionally not much different from a keyboard with most of its keys ripped out. If you're so convinced that playing on a hitbox gives you a competitive advantage, buy a damn hitbox. If you don't think you should have to change what you're doing to compete, you don't understand competition. I'm not about to go look-up prices but does a hitbox cost considerably more than a fightstick? My gut says they should be about equal. Meaning you aren't being asked to take on any more financial burden based on which one you use, so it doesn't create entry barriers that aren't already there.
The people against these things honestly just sound butt hurt that they learned the old way and don't want to have to learn a new way.
Exactly. Every sport is about taking advantage of situations when they are presented, as fair as posible.
If the games were not designed to br played with such controllers, its the games fault. Period.
This argument falls apart when you actually know the difference. Equating it to a average keyboard which is still banned in some tournaments is nonsensical.
It's a basic fact you can buffer and input moves a controller or stick can't do. Talking about your 5 dollar keyboard to dismiss it ignores the point. A very expensive mechanical keyboard will still be an advantage if it had enlarged and responsive buttons.
@@TheRockemsockm I don't remember saying anything about the quality of keyboard. I didn't know keyboards are sometimes banned, that matters a bit.
But the bedrock issue is, if you think it's the best, why aren't you using it? How is that different from a golf pro showing up to a pro tour without a putter then claiming it wasn't fair everyone else was using one?
@@TheRockemsockm The video pretty much explains its not the players' fault for using a hitbox. Its the devs fault because now they decided to work on fixing issues they never forsaw or straight up ignored all these years. But you do you, I guess
Exactly, it's like when rally cars became AWD, the meta changed and to stick to RWD would mean losing. At the end every car company adapted to the change
I look at it the same way I do traditional manual transmission with a stick and clutch vs paddle shifters. The traditional is what makes a sports car a sports car; the physicality of the movements, the master of the movements until you feel you're one with the car. It's the way a sports car should be and what I prefer. But paddle shifters are way fucking faster and more precise. It's an immediate huge increase in speed, and it's the way forward in performance sports cars. I don't like it, but that's the way it's going and I might as well get used to it.
Since you can press the directions separately that's a great advantage for example in ultimate mk3 you can do instant airballs using a keyboard is a Lil bit easy since you can hold up and either be pressing forwad or backwards but I manage to find the same effect in a stick example you are kabal you have to hold block and do backwards 2 times then release hold and then you have to roll the stick in between backwards and up backwards not the whole way to up backwards like a reverse tiger knee if you do tiger knee it won't come out so once you roll the stick following the outline of the circumference to in between backwards and up backwards and press High punch and it will come out it takes some practice to be consistent don hit backwards twice and the hit in between backwards and up backwards use the momentum of the second backwards to roll the stick to in between
I love the cork bar analogy. Well put.
As for myself, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get past the inherent “unintuitiveness” of the leverless controllers and I’m a 09er fightstick guy till I die.
With that being said, the HB Cross|up completely outclasses the traditional fightstick in every way imaginable. If you play on arcade style controllers there’s 0 reason not to use a crossup.
This product (and its layout’s form factor) brings sticks to more even terms with pads and leverless when considering each input method’s perceived advantages over the other.
One of the future techs i am looking forward to is the handless or brain controlled game or controllers. Given that the same technology is available to all, it cannot be an advantage unless i am the only one that can have it. When these new technologies become available, they should be allowed because it introduces a new paradigm and advances technology. Would or should we forbid shoes in an olympic marathon because they wore sandles in the first olympics?
You won’t be alive for that my friend. And either will I
Casual entertainment is never going to be a sufficient reason for me to hook my brain into anything.
@@jessesutton7985 You really think Elon is going to give you a choice?
"you can put that neuralink chip in my brain now elon!" vibes
Using your thoughts alone instead of using your hands and fingers in conjunction to play a game is cheating and takes no skill.
Games like chest, HOI4 and etc. are the only permissible games in which you shouldn’t be required to manually use your fingers.
this is the esport version of motorsports switching from 3 pedal + lever to paddle shifts
reminds me of the whole manual transmission vs. tiptronic debate, eventually everything will go towards better efficiency
Hitbox style controllers are also far cheaper to DIY, lowering the barrier of entry for a lot of people.
I built my first one out of a shoe box and some wires been a big fan of the diy scene ever since lol.
@@Holesale00 hell yeah! I made mine out of an old tupperware lid haha
I agree, I first played on my ps4 pad then to my fight stick and finally my mixbox. I let friends who don't even play fighting games try my mixbox and it made it so much easier for them to play. I do want to try a hitbox soon just to see how I would like it compare to my mixbox.
sure its cheaper so let the cheating contiinue with these dumb things?
@@gamersplaygroundliquidm3th526 HURAAAAYYYYYY i never see comments like this thank you thank you so much.
I like to use the mixbox, I work best using a keybaord
People said the same thing about paddles in the shooter genre and now theyre a staple for professionals.
Many long-time stick players are developing health issues with their left hand. Hitbox (and physical therapy) can allow them to play again. Players that replace their stick with a hitbox now may even be preventing future hand injury without ever knowing it.
thats funny coz a lot of people also get bad and weak wrists from resting their wrist in one position all day on a keyboard. eh tomato tomahtoe?
"Is pressing buttons cheating?": the debate.
Yep, you have to consider the game for 'console' was designed entirely around the joysticks as part of it's control. It would be cheating there.
Though, for PC, the argument comes down to remapable buttons & if custom (non aiding buttons) is illegal & just how far we flex the design of the button layout between setups.
I'm going to argue ... that if you're using a game designed for KB &/or Controller, (default x360, or ps design) that these are cheating in that having what amounts to a reinforced & very friendly smashing surface for mashing the correct button & excess space to prevent/remove any precision on hitting only the correct input is a form of cheating, or is at the very least a place to demand standardizing control layouts to flaten out any advantages & expectations.
Not all KB are the same, not all 3rd party controllers at the same, and the fact is some designs are just worse than others for fast response & choas environments.
Also, This is why tournaments need to standardize inputs across the board. Be it, official Brand controller, XYZ branded/model KB/M, or and official special kb for the event, way ahead of the event so getting the right one is possible, along with using it.
@@DePhoegonIsle it's the devs' job to make sure that using different controllers doesn't break the game. It's one of the few technical things that Tekken 7 does extremely well - sure, most inputs are simpler, but there is only one mechanic that's broken by button controllers - you can step to the foreground after blocking a move that forces crouch (which is arguably something that there needs to be an option for lever controllers as well, so for me it's rather a general design flaw, not an actual mechanic). b,f inputs require a neutral input in between, so you can't get those out a frame faster. It has built-in SOCD cleaning. That should just be how every fighting game works.
For me, deciding whether a controller should be considered legal for a game is very simple. There is one very simple baseline for a legal controller - the pad for the console it was released for. If I can perfectly replicate a controller's inputs by taking the PCB out of that controller and wiring buttons and levers up to it, while only soldering each wire to exactly one contact on each end - that controller is just a physical space remap of the original pad, and is therefore legal. Since basically every pad for every console has a D-pad and 6 buttons - Hitboxes are legal.
That isn't even that far stretched of a definition - a lot of people that build custom sticks/hitboxes use PCBs harvested from gamepads, and the "every wire goes to exactly one contact on each end" is from Evo's rules on custom controllers.
As for standardizing the hardware - that also mostly exists already. Evo has a list of PCBs that are allowed for custom controllers, and the overwhelming majority of players use the Brook UFB, even in prebuilt controllers, because of its great response times and compatibility with every console under the sun.
@@DePhoegonIsle Cheaterbox? Big words coming from people who has auto aim built in for their shooter games.
Im screaming
Does hitbox make execution easier: Yes
Does easier execution mean a free win?: No
Daigo is one of the best in the world and has amazing execution skills. Still lost to IDom who was using a pad.
Does this mean Pad is better that hitbox? No
Does this mean Daigo is so bad he couldn't beat IDom with hitbox? Also no
Hitbox does not "break" fighting games it's just a different means of input.
Use whatever makes you comfortable. Get comfortable with whatever you have.
I see a lot of these guys are certified STONERS adding all those clips from that "professioller" streamer.
These are like the simplified editions of me using keyboards during my high school ages.
If full body VR input get it's edge, fighting game with be a much different thing.
i hope not