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Yes, All Coaches Should Be Banned On Tournament Stages
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- Today we discuss coaches in fighting games tournaments and if they should be banned. You already know my take, but I'd love to hear from you!
Join my channel if you'd like to support me:
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#fgc #fightinggames #discussion
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yeah but Tekken 8 is trash so who cares?
Bro is here every day lmao. I respect it 😂
you know what....he has point lol😂
even you care! you come here and bash on the game every video he puts out! if you didn't care you wouldn't be here
if you didn't care why are you here every single time
dude has no purpose in life otherthan be on watch to comment "this game is trash" as soon as mike drops a video
In the words of my older brother, "Let him lose on his own."
That's a good older brother.
Exactly. In tournaments, where you fail is where you fall. Don't know the matchup? Then lab up. Cheese not working? Get rekt.
Another player coming up on stage of their own volition is basically saying "here's how I would be trying to win if I was in your position"... But you're not in their position, so get the fugg off the stage.
Yeah, let him lose so that he can learn on the spot.
Got eliminated from my first EVO from the very scenario you described. Guy pulled up, sponsored with his team jersey and coach. Lost the first set and immediately got informed of the solution to my setups. Shouldn't have another person on the side lines fixing their mistakes. The main appeal of fighting games is the fact that you lose on your own, not your opponent and his friend blowing your momentum snitching on your plans with the frame data on his phone. Stage needs to be off limits.
Just use the same rules as real life boxing and mma. Coaches are beforehand registered and nobody else can come up to the player. 1min between matches and if you go over that you get penalized.
How would they get penalized? Giving away one round?
Yeah was about to say it's something like boxing coaches
@@ivanesquivel7740yes.
@@ivanesquivel7740probably work like baseball, three strikes and you’re out, maybe down to two strikes, but still.
We've had a rule like this on meele for years now, coaching mid set is extremely powerful unfair and destructive to the flow of the tournament
No 3rd party should be allowed to talk to players during a game. Knowledge is a huge part of fighting games and if you need to be told something to get the W, then you dont deserve that W. Its also not fair to anyone who cant get a coach to help them.
What a stupid comment, so we can say the exact same shit to every sport/eSports
Really hard to ban this since people can just use tiny earpiece and receive coaching remotely. If the main problem is match interruption then put a limit on time and number of time coaching are allowed in a set. With the penalty being that the coach get kicked out of the venue, or dev added a new feature to auto start next match after the timer's up.
Agreed, if live coaching gets banned everyone is just gonna switch to using their headset for coaching comms similar to a quarterback. If that is the aim then let that be allowed, you get this flow you want with no interruptions. The tournament org should be in control when the match starts. One the allotted time ends the round starts regardless of where the player is at mentally or coach wise.
I've always assumed that's why so many players are still wearing facemasks
I feel completely the opposite. Everytime in ranked, i always am sharing my screen with my friend while he helps me keep a fresh mind. And when I watch tournaments, I love seeing how coaching affects a players playstyle. I think every player should have access to a coach, so in situations where a player doesn't, it definitely is unfair. But seeing a players adaptations and gameplan change from match to match is so satisfying and really fun comebacks are made possible by it.
Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, Kickboxing, Tennis, Golfing, etc. are all 1V1 sports that have coaching in between rounds/sets. This does not hurt the quality of the sport if the time limits are met.
This is an L stance on this topic for me. Rare to see on this channel.
It because most of those situations involve where individuals can lose their life this is a really bad take on what you think about this Coaching thing, most sports where you can get severely injured, die, or worse require
Communication because both players/Fighters need to communicate back to their team and coach wether or not they can continue sorry but you don’t understand the difference and fundamentals when it’s comes to real life consequences and a Damn Video game L take ON YOUR SIDE
@@wheezingplace02ggamer15 Saying coaching should only exist if there's a risk of dying is WILD. You think a football coach is going "Hey do whatever you want but watch your left foot so you don't trip and fall yeah?" Hell no, their telling them to hook a left to throw to their WR.
Also I don't recall someone dying during a game of Tennis or Golfing. Learn what coaching means first and how it's applied. I agree with this guys take that if rules are meet and it's kept to a minimum then it's all cool.
@@NrettG yea I can tell you didn’t read the entire thing and your reading comprehension is really low so let me slow it down for you so you can understand stand better
1. I said Most Sports not all sports.
2. I never said “it should only exist if there’s a threat of life to an individual”.
3. I never stated nor have I said what should and shouldn’t be said during those situations of Coaching ( I was simply stating it’s a clear cut difference between life or death & a VIDEO GAME communication is key if you don’t want to wind up as a vegetable.
4. I really want to get this out of the way again I NEVER said it should only exist if there’s life or death I’m simply stating there’s a difference & pointing out why that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
5. I’ve participated in my fair share of Competitive Fighting game tournaments along with a number of Boxing matches myself and I will tell you one thing the intense stress and anxiety filled gap between fighting someone on a video game and a boxing match is Vastly to much for anyone who’s never thrown a punch in their life to comprehend.
I have experience after experience on what’s important to do as a coach both in and out of ring fights, Wrestling, video games, so I know what coaching is and what it means to an experienced individual
@@NrettG and I’ll give it even more insight on why I agree it should be banned you’re not under Life threading stress or for that matter, as many of you have said Casuals or Competitive at the end of the day you’re walking away your life and an L just move on and keep it pushing
You’re already less stressed than the average Fighter or football player a second of hesitation can mean your down fall
Combine that with being relieved that you’re being told hey that move is -15 on block don’t fall for it just punish already your flow has been restored and you are now locked in meanwhile the other player is still mildly anxious and is starting cave in it’s unfair and it’s corny.
But this also puts in a lot perspective of another ideology many competitive players have and it directly contradicts that mindset
-If an L is simply an L in any fighting game and you should keep it pushing, you lost because of your lack of knowledge and fundamentals cope and move on
If that’s really the case and an L isn’t a big deal and we should all move on why is it so important to desperately receive coaching when you’re caving in just to earn a W if winning isn’t everything and losing is what should teach you.
Why is it that so many FGC players have this fundamental flaw in their backwards ideology tell me that?
@@wheezingplace02ggamer15 lol
I've always felt this way. Fighting games are 1v1. Plain and simple. Both players are bringing the best of the skills they've cultivated to the table. And it's up to the player to use their own wits to adapt to and overcome whatever they're struggling against. Come ready and adapt as you go. Coaching simply interrupts and throws off the pace and flow of the competition. And can be unfair if one player receives coaching but the other doesn't.
Get the hell off the stage.
They have coaches talking to boxers mid match in between rounds and that's 1v1, same with UFC. That's not an argument.
Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, Kickboxing Tennis, Golfing, etc. are all 1V1 sports, FGC wants to be considered a real sport then they must adhear to what most sports do. maybe just have a time out after a set once so they can't run on stage every set. or just have that for top 16
@@YiddishDancingClown Not even the same thing. The coaches in their corners have literally spent months, if not years building that fighter up. They spent months developing strategies and gameplans. The fighters need rest between rounds, so the coaches use that time to help refocus the fighter after they just got concussed for a few minutes. Fighting is way more physically demanding and It's part of the institution to allow for that.
Fighting games are more mental. It's mind against mind. If you don't know a matchup it's because you didn't lab up. It's incumbent upon each competitor to know what their weaknesses are and do their best to develop the knowledge, skills and execution necessary to be a force to be reckoned with in the international tournament scene. It's the best in the world against the best in the world. The players on stage are the only ones who matter in that moment. And where you don't make the cut is where you fall. Plain and simple.
@@TheTrueNarthumpulous so you are saying it is okay to coach the players as long as they are registered, yeah?
I know this reads like a gotcha moment, but it is, isn't it?
1. If you're worried about coaches taking over 30 secounds you can simply have someone on stage to escort the coaches off the stage when thier time is up.
2. Everyone is allowed to have a coach so it's not unfair at all. If you choose to go in on your own then that's on you.
3. Seeing a player make a adjustment throughout a set keeps things more intriguing, like why would I want to see a set where only one thing is happening. If a player only has one technique they can rely on to win and can't win once it taken away that player should hit the lab.
4. That example you showed of a coach distracting a player is a huge cherry pick. That situation could've been prevented by simply communication between the coach and player. Most times at least in mk tournaments players will return to the character selection screen to get time to talk and adjust. That player and coach had communication and it costed them. Thing is you'll rarely see that happen.
Nah, fgc tournaments are vastly faster than like a MOBA tournament. I like that it slows down the tournaments. I like the coaching, I just think it should be broadcasted so we can hear what they're saying like during UFC fights.
That'd actually be pretty funny. I bet some people are talking absolute waffle 😂
@@RealMikeHollow thats the spirit lol I'm sure some would start trolling with their advice, would be some comic relief xd
If you guys want fgc esports to be taken more serious then consider keeping coaching. Pro athletes in sports have coaches why not in the fgc?
maybe because we're not like sports and to even be trying to try to act like them is just gonna detriment us further than if we just stuck to our own lane? sports do not operate like esports, we have our differences.
@@xaevius5319 How are we not like sports when we say things like Evo is the super bowl of the fgc? Why then do we model our events after sporting events? What really is the difference then? Are we not trying to elevate the people who dedicate themselves to their craft like they do in sports? In fact we should be treating our pro players better than we do.
@@jamesfosterjr9515 "we say things like Evo is the super bowl of the fgc?" you guys not me. "the way we model our events"? just coincidence or that's just how any competitive event is modeled. that doesn't mean the culture, the things we look forward to, the way we celebrate, how our games function, what we appreciate about our pros compared to pros in real sports is the same. look at how ow league tried to do a "city team" when one of the best advantages of having your sport be online is that you can literally base yourself anywhere. wasn't a good idea. how bout how our players move around from team to team? our free agency isn't the same as in sports leagues/clubs. the professionalism of our casters are certainly worlds apart in what can be said and cannot as well as their general vibe. if u ain't seeing this i don't think you know both worlds enough to see them.
@@xaevius5319 And this is why I think fgc will stay niche because alot of the people would rather have fgc cater to their personal tastes than actually build a structure that would let pro players thrive.
@@jamesfosterjr9515 wth are you talking about video games and esports have ALWAYS been niche. it has always been a thing that caters to only a select group of people. plus wdym "personal taste"? me recognizing that video games work differently from sports is a "personal taste"? the hell are you even talking about dude. instead of trying to appeal to people who don't even like games to begin with, people who have no clue whatsoever how games work or how our communities work just stick with ourselves. gamers and even developers are trying so hard to try to get accepted by the mainstream when you know they won't even pick up a controller or a pc and they'll be forever be in a place of ignorance when it comes to games. non gamers might respect the money but not anything else because they ignorant, they don't know anything about what we do, why we're passionate about it. minecraft ain't any different to street fighter to them. i do not know why y'all love to try to appeal to people like that. look at how blizzard with ow league as well as heroes of the storm tried to artificially create an esports scene and died because of it. idk why gamers can't be happy that our competitions can now bear fruit in the form of monetary prize and just leave it at that.
I do think it is kinda unfair in the sense that fighting games have basically no entrance requirments so not everyone is expected to have a coach.
Like if John jones who just showed up to his random tornament was kicking the teeth in of a signed pro and then the pro gets coaching mid match and uses that to beat him, he would feel robbed of a win.
So for purley equity's sake it should be banned.
as a complete casual im having a hard time believing that coaching actually has any meaningful impact on the competing players. i mean they are the ones who see everything whats going on first hand. why do they need someone else to chime in and tell them what to do? i guess its a "cant see the forest for the trees kind" of situation sometimes when competitors get stressed but like you said this is a 1v1 scenario when the match is going on.
maybe there could be a middle ground where its allowed as long as theyre keeping it really short. like no longer than 10 seconds. and course this would have to be enforced somehow
You definitely can see a lot more when you are only watching
@@phaus5815 yeah i bet you can. they are doing it for a reason after all
i definitely have the sentiment and while i can imagine that coaching does have benefits at the same time i'm still skeptical of it. like for the longest time us gamers have just been on our own, we are our own teacher or maybe a friend or someone else that's better. we never needed coaching to be good at the game why now you know?
As someone that has a very Janky Knowledge Checking playstyle I should be against coaching.....
But personally I think its fine as most pros know all the frames. The coaching going on is prob more like ..... "Calm Down, You got this, do more of this, and less of that"
I don't mind as a spectator either ..... I personally like seeing someone helping the very same person that knocked them out the round before .... I find that really wholesome, and makes me proud to be part of the FGC.
I also like the odd funny looks or shenanigans that happen on stage due to coaching.
That being said I do agree that strict time limits should be in place and enforced.
I am ok with coaching, but there needs to be consistent rules. Only one coach per player and an enforced time limit so that the top 16 or top 8 does not run too long
Team format tourneys for FGs do exist actually. They're not common but they do happen and teams do share info between themselves.
if you think their gonna remove coaching from tourneys where millions of dollars are on the line then idk what to tell you. Also, saying because it’s a 1 on 1 that coaching shouldn’t be needed is ridiculous given that almost every other 1 on 1 sport has coaches. It just needs to be regulated better. You don’t deserve to win if your game plan can be deconstructed by some advice from an outsider.
At no point did I say I think they're going to remove it. I was joining in on the conversation being had on other channels and twitter.
If picking up a stick in a fighting game tournament isn't comparable to the UFC or Boxing, how are shooting games comparable to war? It doesn't hurt to play a shooter the same way it doesn't hurt to play a fighter :(
Because shooting games are constructed in a way to push you to get on Comms. Fighting games aren't. This seems more artificial cos the FGC is adopting all of the E-Sports main stays, but I don't think all things transfer over.
I'd call for a tweak. Personally I do have someone sitting with me when I'm on ranked sometimes and an extra pair of eyes can make a huge difference, whether it's in Tekken or on the mat. Which brings me to the fact that these games are based around martial arts. Sure, you might not need a coach to save your life but that's a false equivalence. Let's not pretend the coaches are there to stop fights in the corner because fighters will not listen if they are told to quit. They're there to point out things that the fighter may not have noticed in order to get the win.That's why coaches can throw in the towel: because their fighters lack that self-preservation instinct for the most part. Victory above all.
Yes, it's abused right now. In particular I've seen it being used as a stalling tactic to break someone's flow and that's dirty. I'd have it look like this:
15 seconds only, strictly timed with a round penalty to the player being coached if it overruns
A single designated coach and coaching interruption per set (with a reset being considered a fresh set)
As far as some players not having coaches, that's unfortunate but it's their problem. Chances are anyone who's onstage could ask someone else beforehand to help them out and return the favour.
Game knowledge and mind games are a huge part of fighting games, especially in a game like Tekken. The excitement/hype of overcoming those challenges and knowledge checks mid-match is gone with coaching
Yeah I agree with you Mike and I hate that I thought I was the only one who thinks of that ryu quote when shit ain’t working in fighting games 🔥🔥🔥
I remember how mad I was seeing Menard getting coached thru out his fight vs angrybird last year Evo was actually satisfying to see angrybird win without a coach. It makes you look weak to the spectators even if we know your great the visual doesn't helps so I agreed coaches should not be on or give penalty if they last longer then expected then the player should be personalize or forfeit the round
Agreed, being able to get the job at a tournament should be no different from taking a test. Your calculus teacher ain't gonna stroll by your desk and help you figure out your proof, he already gave you the materials you need to take that test on. That's why it's called a TEST. Tournaments should operate in that same spirit. Now, sometimes I see Japanese players whip out their phones between matches to look up some sort of knowledge check. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, cause they're still using their reasoning skills to figure out the answer on their own, and they do this knowing they got a very small time frame till they need to ready up again. Honestly I think calling the teams 'teams' is a bit misleading - should be more like pods or something. Each player is operating on their own individual abilities for each match. The others should just sit back and watch.
I'm on the fence regarding coaching, I have points for and against it and I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.
In Favor of Coaching:
1. I do think coaches should be pre-registered and there should be a set amount of time between rounds allowed for coaching. I also think coaching should be limited to the top cut and not allowed in pools, just to keep things speedy. Not just anyone should be able to hop in and give advice, only your registered coach, and you should only have, lets say, a total of 60 seconds to use for coaching time over the course of a set, which assuming a 3-0 happens in a best of 5, 20 seconds per round.
2. Coaching is used in 1v1 competition all the time, not just team based competition. Boxing is a prime example, especially since its quite comparable to fighting games. It's just fighting games is mostly mental whereas boxing places a great emphasis on mental and physical capabilities. But, they are both 1v1 forms of competition. If you're against coaching in 1v1 fighting games, are you against coaching in boxing? Why/why not?
3. Coaches are an influence on the game, but they don't determine the outcome. It is still up to the player to ultimately perform the suggested strategy or use the knowledge that was given to them. In fact, coaches might create a much more optimized future for Tekken, where many adjustments are being made on the fly and overtime with further analysis on the game, we'll see a more optimized version of tournament play much quicker. It could also open up more jobs in the FGC.
Against Coaching:
1. The existence of coaching could create a "the rich get richer" type of environment. If you can't afford a coach, or are new to the scene and don't have the same connections as others, you could be at a disadvantage.
2. The existence of coaching blurs the lines between who your opponent really is. Am I facing my opponent or am I facing my opponent and their coach? A simple example, if my opponent doesn't know Hwoarang's grabs in RFF are always 1+2 breaks and I'm abusing that, and his coach tells him the break, did my opponent earn that, or did I lose to their coach who isn't even on the sticks? It's not like he experimented with the breaks mid match and figured out it was 1+2. He was just given the answer. That certainly doesn't feel great, and might just result in the community overall feeling worse about tournament results, possibly coaches just becoming matchup bots, and overall more salt.
I do like the last point, at least to me it feels like when you get the drop on someone in cod then his team mate on the other side of the map screams you were behind him.
The fgc isn’t meant to have coaches I would argue for set leagues like SFL for example coaching is fine because it’s a team tournament and every player participating has access to the same resources but in a community run event or open bracket it shouldn’t be allowed. Imagine half of your opponents in a combat sport didn’t have a corner like you had your cut man working and coach pepping you up while he’s just sitting there on a stool alone.
“Fighting games are not played in a team format, likely never will”
2XKO says hi, and that game will be one of the biggest fighting games ever
1 game that's not even out yet. It's not the own you think it is.
@@espurrseyes42 wasnt trying to own, i fw Mike lol plus he said “ever” which is what i was replying to.
It'll die within a year. Look at how uninterested streamers were when they got to play it live. Look at their face lol. On the other hand city of the wolve feels like a next big thing.
@@ohpeep3723 I wish this were true.
Sadly, Fatal Fury will not be 1/10th as popular tournament wise and 1/100th sales wise as any Fighting Game Riot produces.
I honestly wish this weren’t the case, but that is the likely scenario given the impact Riot has in the EU, U.S , and East Asia.
@@ohpeep3723 its a riot game, their prize pools will rival Capcoms. Money talks, even if the game is shit its gonna be huge.
I think it should be allowed, but with strict rules and time limits etc..
When i saw the coaches come up i felt like the person who won that round lost their momentum and lost the round after because of that pause. It was very apparent and seemed annoying to the players.
Personally I dont mind coaching as an element but unregulated coaching is a huge no from me.
A time limit that, if exceeded, removes coaching priveledges. If only one person has a coach, no coaching. Coaching should be a *mutual opt-in by both players to be legal* and should only be allowed in top 8 to avoid the event going over time. The coaches should be predesignated and mic'd up - or have a mic in their "corner" so the audience isnt watching two people silently huddled for 30-60 seconds and can hear the coaching. One instance of coaching per set.
Coaching isnt an OP tool in my mind as it comes with serious drawbacks - its very easy to tunnel vision on advice and lose your own ganeplsn trying to force an adaotation, or get overloaded with info to the same effect as examples. It is an advantage for sure though, and thats why ut needs to be mutually accessible and opted into imho.
Fighting games were used to be described as a chess/backgammon kind of... you know what I mean. Playing fighting games is all about skill, reflexes, knowledge but also adjustments, reading enemy patterns... but all these ON YOUR OWN. Idk... maybe in the future will see four member teams working as an F1 just to eliminate high skill enemies from other teams in order to guide their Top tier player to the final rank. Unfortunately Esports are becoming something bigger and more complex... but that just me😕
I agree with this 100% another thing I thought of is the fact that being able to deduce what an opponent is doing and find a way to overcome it (IMO) is a skill in of itself. I feel like having someone sitting in the ground in a non-pressure situation and being able to just watch and analyze might be a bit unfair especially if the opponent doesn't have a coach.
That part of coaching is anti-competitive in nature imo. Realistically coaches have no place on a stage, I would say depending on bracket size and turnout once a tournament hits top 32 or less, coaches are required to be in the crowd or waiting rooms or their car, anywhere but the stage. It takes away from the point of people training beforehand if you have some outside source of information drip feeding you in between sets.
I also think steps should be taken to separate players from crowds a bit as well but that’s a whole different discussion
I agree with coaches being a thing. It's esports, people are competing for money, reputation and sponsors. Regular sports do it for the same reason.
That said, I do feel it needs to be regulated. Nobody should be going on stage midset and interrupting everything or distracting the opposing player.
Regular sports allow it during intermission, time outs etc.
I see no reason esports shouldn't apply the same regulation policies.
Coaching should definitely be banned in fighting games should only be for fps games
Honestly I’d be heated if lost finals just because his homie gave him advice he couldn’t figure out on own
@diomarius7445 that's how every single competitive event operates, why are fighting games different?
@@YiddishDancingClown yeaa that’s corny…that footage must be funny
@@YiddishDancingClown because you actually see everything happening on screen versus something like an FPS where the camera doesnt go behind you, there is crucial information missed, like what your teammates were doing (cs go)
You should only get one per set there is a lot mental mind games at the highest level almost all 1v1 sports have coaches and I do see a point for why cod needs coaches there like 6 -;Ayer’s on one they can’t come up with a strategy them selves
They banned it before SSBU came out because it was controversial on Smash 4. Play styles changed, flow of matches etc. like you could tell it had an impact and not every player had their own Coach carter, who were also pro players, its not like every player is sponsored by TSM or something either. Like coaching should be for before and after matches not during matches. Irl is different. Imagine fighting Jon Jones with no break or coaching moment, good luck.
I was playing volleyball, so it probably affected my perspective. The coach there plays quite a significant role (they can take breaks when the other team is on a roll, etc.), and I never find it problematic. The issue is when it is unlimited. If you exceed your time, banned or coaching allowed 1 time, pick when you want it type of thing
Imagine playing fighting games because you like people backseatting you from afar.
Not having a team and depending only on me to win is the reason why I stay away from team based games nowadays.
Aight guy, Imma bite.
Coaching should be allowed PROVIDED they give a set time limit to coach AND specify who the coach is.
One minute should be plenty, and when someone wants to coach, they signal the ref for a timeout. Usually between rounds where it is the safest to do so.
This is a competition, and real money are in line. If people wants to bring their plus one to coach them, let them, provided they ALSO split the mlney between them.
I think for general events run by the community it shouldn’t be allowed for respect of time, but I would be fine with it in a pro circuit sanctioned by the developer like TWT world tour finals. I know you don’t want to use boxing as a reference, but there’s still a heavy financial burden players face even without putting their physical body on the line, that’s serious enough to them.
I am a big advocate against during tournament coaching. FGC would be against me everytime I speak of it.
I you want this dam game to be a little more serius then coaching is a must, i don't see any problem, but they need to add certain rules in order to make it official
Ill tell you this
Years ago i was in a small local mkx tourney i was hat tricks lao and my opponent was cybernetic kano the set was a ft3 and it was finals
I won 2-0 and needed one more win
Coach came in the guy swept me 3 games
So in my biased opinion...no coaches shouldn't be allowed lol
YES!! I've got second place!!
I could not finish watching the stream, but I feel I need to clarify a point Im almost sure got me a -1
The extreme gore
I mean
Employees from MK11 had PTSD from working at that and watching the reference material.
in MK1 the fatalities are mostly fun, stylish, fast
In MKX they are gross, gruesome and morbid, and uncomfortably realistic
I know MK is suppossed to be violent, but I just personally believe the violence should be used to convey the character's powers, traits, skills. Not for sadism.
yup i agree, mainly with the point about not labbing stuff. personally i think its just cheating if someone can just walk up and tell you the answer on how to deal with certain attacks/playstyles etc, as fighting games are predominantly 1v1. its on you if you don't know how to deal with it. especially as like you said some people don't even have coaches whilst others do, so only a select amount of players will have access to this. really unfair advantage imo. maybe if everyone was required to have a coach it would be ok, not sure if it would complicate things tho😅
Any form of coaching in ANY FG while in a match should be banned. It doesn't matter how it's done. And yes this includes getting even text messages (AFAIK Mena has done this in the past, where he looks at his phone while the set is still being played. He's being coached).
I especially dont like it in Tekken. Every time a match in a set finishes someone goes up there to coach. It delays the tournament and im pretty sure nobody likes it. IF you are to allow coaching keep it once in the whole set, That's it.
EDIT: To the people defending it, this aint Combat Sports. Athletes need to rest in between rounds and their life is on the line. The fact that people are comparing this to combat sports is shambolic.
Mena is such a rat
Sorry I just think this distinction without a difference for FGs, if team games and real life fighting matches can have coaches I don't see why FGs shouldn't be given the same benefits. I think some of the best tournaments I've seen for Tekken have been team tournaments and I think Tekken should do more of those to be honest. Sponsored players I wouldn't consider alone, they represent their sponsor along with the other players sponsored by the same entity. Also to the people saying it's unfair to the players without a coach, speaking as a guy with no coach or regular training partners even that's mostly on me. That is on par to me as someone's controller going faulty during a tournament set, should've got a backup controller but either gut it out or forfeit. Which I remember people were running defense for Sonicfox when I said this shit when he loss that exhibition set against I think Goichi in DBFZ. Dude was coping with plausible deniability so hard, "I had a faulty controller. I somehow forgot to bring my backup controller today of all days and I can't be fucked to ask a friend or colleague to fetch my good controller in my room so I can switch between matches." I think 30-60 seconds coaching rule should stand as is and spectators that hate it need to suck it up, I actually enjoy seeing the downtime and speculating on the coaching/downtime between matches. One additional rule or caveat I think could be added to mitigate the annoyance for people who hate it unlike me however I'd be down for is adding 1 use per set rule which would particularly help keep the grandfinals tighter on time or any of the longer sets for that matter as well. Coaching between sets can be a loophole that people accept like you said earlier. If the 30-60 seconds coaching rule isn't being enforced it's the player(s) and audience' job (to a lesser extent) to point it out to the TOs, it's a pretty enforceable rule especially on stream so I don't see it as a valid criticism why coaching should be banned.
I didn't even know about there being Coaches in the FGC/tournaments. I'm glad I fell out of the scene and retired decades ago. (MvC Collection is the only thing I'm looking forward to nowadays)
As bad as the nfl is, the fgc could learn from them. If fgc coach's had a set amount of timeouts, then it's an added layer to the coach's role in the fgc. Their player might be losing, but are they losing bad enough for a coach to use 1 of your 2 timeouts to give them advice or do you let them persevere and save those timeouts for later in the competition. It's worth a thought, at least
By fgc I meant tournament participants
Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, Kickboxing Tennis, Golfing, etc. are all 1V1 sports, FGC wants to be considered a real sport then they must adhere to what most sports do. maybe just have a time out after a set once so they can't run on stage every set. or just have that for top 16
1:16 true but why hasn’t Bandai Namco brought back team battle it make sense now more than ever. EU vs NA would’ve definitely benefited from it.
Eating fish and shambolic chips. In regards to coaches, you don’t get coached in anything else.
They should limit it to one coaching per set and uts capped at 15 seconds
Quake Champions don't have coaches on LAN if memory serves. It depends on how they set up the culture.
The only time coaching really bothers me is when it's the player that leaves their seat. I have noticed it's becoming way more common though, and with anything, you give people and inch they'll take a mile; it's only a matter of time before coaching is abused if it hasn't been already.
Right now I'm indifferent towards it, but if I could choose I'd say get rid of it. Let the players adapt on their own, and it's one less thing to slow the momentum of a tournament (I know we all groan when someone doesn't back out for stage select!).
100% should be banned, as soon as you get one guy with a coach and the other attended on his own it becomes unfair. Some just take the piss also like 2 or 3 minutes.
2:10 Absolutely. It’s that thrill of 1v1 that makes fighting games so fun in the first place.
I feel fighting games have an issue with getting on top of issues quickly and implementing rules effectively, coaching should be banned yes. Hitboxes should also be illegal but its probably to late to stop any of this now.
I say keep it like boxing or MMA.. instead of 1 minute just give them 30 seconds...
30 seconds is about the time it would take for somebody to go back to the character select screen to take a breather anyways
It would be up to the coach to get there within those 30 seconds to coach it up..
It's only a problem now because they take too long.. just said a strong boundary.. and if they go over to 30 seconds they lose around or something like that..idk..
Mike I fight mma I boxed I feel like coaching should be better regulated because in real life combat sport coaches can coach between rounds I understand you feel like real life is different but the purpose of a coach is to provide guidance and another perspective
Whaaaat! Coaching is amazing! Don't be such stiffs. I love that crap.
I can't stand it 😂 BAN THEM ALL 🗣️🗣️🗣️
@@RealMikeHollow ok so why do you want to ban coaching idk nothing about tournaments I never been to FGC tournaments never been to Evo or any fighting game tournaments but don’t you think you people are complaining that you want coaching to be banned in tournaments when coaching have always been part of fighting games tournaments since 2017 back in tekken 7 at Evo
@@Jasonbowgaming You're asking him why he wants to ban coaching in the comment section of the video where he talks about why he wants to ban coaching?
@@Shade84 why do you guys want to ban coaching I want to know cause it sounds like to me you guys are completely complaining about coaching in the FGC plus I am not part of the FGC I only play fighting games for fun plus coaching is part of sports same with basketball mma or any type of sports so why the world isn’t coaching a part of fighting games that’s your guys opinion but not mine I am saying that there is nothing wrong with coaching in the FGC unless a player is a troll of course they gonna spam troll or worst teabag I get it you guys want to ban coaching is annoying but that guy coaching shouldn’t have got involved when he won the round in MK1 and give him advice and like I said guys that’s your opinion guys and your theories if you guys want to banned coaching or not some people don’t want it to be banned some people do but people have every right to do they opinion and not judge others
@@Shade84 is because I didn’t wanna watch the video or care about it when I am not like other TH-camrs who are judging and wants to ban coaching
This reminds me when Julio Fuentes made a phone call during grand finals to get coaching to defeat pr balrog I think. Literally stopped pr balrogs momentum it was ridiculous.
That is insane behaviour 😭 I'd DQ him for that.
Just going off title this take might be crazy. Update after video
I wouldn't mind coaching, but FGs are too short to and it interrupts too much. The ratio of watching vs downtime is too skewed
I think coaching is silly and pointless, but not an actual threat to the integrity of fighting game tournaments.
Agreed. Nothing else to add.
I think only grand finals should have coaches so we can increase the probability of really good matches, even real fighters (i.e UFC, boxing, and wrestling)are professionals but they also have coaches too
Yeah man coaching is long
Especially if there is a scenario where its an independent player vs a player sponsored by an organisation that has a structure around him.
Problem solving is part of the game
Might as well have the coach cuddle you and move your hands for you like this is happy gilmore telling man its all in the wrist
Coaching is actually dumb, In tournaments the players already have so much to focus on and their not gonna be able to adapt based on words and if they do they'll just hyperfocus on what the coaches say and that won't help... its the equivelent of backseat driving lol
yes i agree like its a tournament and fighting at that like it makes it lame asf let people just fight them two between each other exactly its not a team game like its a no no
Long time league of legends player here. They're a lot of things I have noticed while getting into Tekken 8 and how everything is ran/how the player base reacts to certain aspects of ranked/exports. All I'm going to say as a response to this video is that if you want people to take your game seriously from a professional aspect, you NEED coaches.
Next tournament someone should just pull up a TH-cam video real quick between games 😂
Boxing and UFC has coaching between rounds
Yet coaches are allowed to be at real fights(boxing,mma,etc). They’re literally there for the same reason at both fighting game tournaments or at real fights so why ban it?
Yea this is a hot take
I respect the opinion but unless we are at that level playing , as spectators it's wild to tell yhe pros to not use their time in-between matches to get some assistance . Boxing has coaches ........ checkmate.
I addressed the boxing at the end of the video. Reverse check mate.
@@RealMikeHollownah bro u didn’t reverse check mate shit 😂
@RealMikeHollow this won't end it but sure I guess . The problem I noticing is folks who isn't pros speaking on what pros and tournament organishluld do instead of what they will do . After a point it's like why should anyone take it into consideration.? And will they?
@@ImarBenIsrael From what I understand, Tekken 8's entire design was due to the outcry of spectators saying Tekken 7 matches were boring to watch. People are listening to what fans/spectators say. They're just as important in this day and age as the competitors.
@Shade84 inhear you and Mike . Let's see if this bear fruit then .
I never understood why coaching is ok how can you say you beat someone if you were losing until a coach spoke to you
I cant disagree plus is not like the only tournament that you really need a coach for tekken for example was tekken world tour because it was sort of a team representing a different of the world in that situation makes sense. Otherwise arguement is very sound.
I gotta disagree. The FGC wants to be esports. In every sport, there is coaching, even in combat sports where there are no teammates.
Just have the coaches registered and put a timer on them. Regulate them. Simple.
That's the problem. The FGC wants to be E-Sports so bad that they're willing to sacrifice aspects of the FGC to be E-Sports. I hear what you're saying, but I don't think everything translates over well.
Totally agree, reset only.
At the end of the day it’s your hands on that stick. No one can play the game for you. Knowing something doesn’t mean you can execute on it. And no coach can read the other guys mind.
Sounds like another thing to blame outcomes on to me. You’re either carried by your character or your carried by your coach now?
SF6 is the first game I tried to take seriously. Can I get into top 8 just because I’m coached by J Wong, Punk, and SonicFox? They cant do anything for me I can’t do on my own. If anything it would just happen faster. If people are breaking time limit rules than there needs to be stronger enforcement.
I’m willing to hear people out on this one but as someone who’s had to rethink some scrubby mentalities it sounds scrubby to me.
Having read everything you just said, what is it that you think coaches do because it seems like you're saying they're totally irrelevant anyway and won't make a difference.
Mike since I’m not a big content creator you can’t holla at yo boy 😂🙏🏽💯👊🏽
Message me on IG fam 😂 there's too many comments on here.
@@RealMikeHollow bro don’t ever mind me I’m a shit talker lol but naw I wanted to join your podcast as a casual player about your mk video cuz I’m a die mk head you be doing it with Tom and em but I want to speak as a casual I know since I’m not a big name or a TH-camr it’s no love my way 😂😞😂😂💯
1:18 , 2XKO may change that
Don't stop doing these thumbnails they are kinda funny lol
This is real hot take.
Isn’t BurritoVoorhees a pro player for MK ? I think he’s ForeverKing’s brother or something
Yeah, PL told me on the live stream.
Feng Wei Detected. Opinion Rejected
Again? 😂
This ain't team sports. You don't need a coach in the middle of the game. Win and lose by your own merit.
I agree with you fam.
Nah just use the same rules that combat sports like boxing or MMA use when it comes to coaching and problem solved .
1:45 this hit too deep
My apologies 😂
Personally, I don’t mind it. Fighting in real life and fighting in games is obviously different lol, but you can still draw the analogy between team sports and a singular sport. Boxers still sit down and listen to coaches in between rounds. Again, my personal opinion, but I think it is kind of cool to see high level players collaborating. Yes, it seems unfair to someone who does not have a coach on their side, but there are a lot of pro player privileges that most of us do not enjoy. Being able to play more hours per day, sponsored travel, high-level sparring, partners, etc.… I just think it is part of earning clout in the scene. I can definitely see why people dislike it, though. Maybe if it were done with an earpiece that cuts out at the 32nd mark, so we don’t have people pushing the limits? Something could be done to keep it a factor, and also keep it bearable for the spectator. But, if the majority of people want to see it banned, I would also be OK with that. Anything to keep the scene healthy
Banning coaching is inherently impossible as people in the crowd will cheer and yell things to either hype up or advise the people they're cheering for. Where's the line we draw between someone sitting down with you and "coaching", as opposed to someone from the crowd yelling something like "hes gonna overhead you!" At this point we should just limit it to 10 seconds kind of like a boxing round
Hello Mike Hollow
Hello, sir ☝🏾
@RealMikeHollow I was at a party the other day when y'all were doing that live stream for the MK1 thing, were there any winners?
Is it me or do we see Bison flip kick every 5 seconds smh
It's his trademark move called Scissors kick. It's what he's known for.
@@RealMikeHollow I’m fully aware, I’m old enough that I was playing SF2 in arcades not knowing what I was doing and dying quick lol. I just meant it as everyone does it like 15 times every round. I understand the advantage and pressure it gives I’m not trying to say anything about you personally or anything at all, I meant it as an overall thing.
I think someone with better neutral, better defense and better offense shouldn’t lose because they didn’t know/forgot something about the matchup
3:36
The One Piece?!
Ahh a man of culture.
@@RealMikeHollow Yup. I'm in the middle of Wano, right now. It's peak fiction.
Coaching isn't bad but how much can I tell you in 30 seconds? Will I effectively overwrite your tendency with my insight? It's one of those things where it can work...but this isn't really the game for it. (Active coaching) If it happens before or after a set it's fine.
Coaches is corny, lose like a man, everybody dont need their hand held...MAN UP
I feel conflicted on this because all spots have coaches but for some reason fighting games are the one where people draw the line lol cgl and other epsorts have coaching but I understand why it's a problem my brother was playing smash I pointed out the dudes habit instantly he started beating him but that shouldn't be a problem I think it's cause fighting games are seen as individuals but then look at boxing I don't know if we can keep calling fighting games an esport if there's no coaching
At least to me the main difference is that in boxing, coaches are the standard. The quality may vary but if everyone has a coach it evens out. In the fgc tho it's just a "rich get richer" type of situation. The people who always win will continue to win purely because the have the finances most lower level pros dont.