I only learned about the word "anneal" within the last hour and do very little handy work. I much prefer to learn from men like you that have experience and give several helpful details, especially for people like me that know almost nothing. Thank you.
See immediately below: this is a follow-up. I also like to watch Proper DIY for the reason given below. This guy is so much more professional than most.
Great video and tutorial Rod, thank you. I wasn't aware that you could just let the copper slowly cool off. The plumbing shop I worked for taught us to anneal copper by heating it to a cherry red, then quickly quenching it in water. It did make for a very soft and easily worked copper.
@@RODsDIY The data suggests there isn't much difference in either quenching or air cooling. It's getting it up to the right temp that causing the annealing. However a longer cooling process, such as in air, will allow a thicker oxide layer to build, as well as slowing down the speed of work (you gotta wait for it). So water quenching means faster work cycles, less oxide build, as well as the thermal shock causing what oxide has built up to flake off. I should also note that cherry red is a bit too hot and can place you on the other side of annealed and cause excessive grain growth. You want what barely shows up as a dull, faint red in a dim room. A well lit space or bright daylight makes it hard to see this dull red. This detail is minor, and you are still getting the benefits of annealing by going to cherry red but are losing some integrity in the material. Copper anneals between 370C and 650C (700F to 1200F). The dullest "black" red is 500C(932F) which is more than enough to anneal. A bright "cherry" red is 800-1000C (1650F). That's 300C (572F) over temp!! You're just wasting fuel, building thick oxides, and damaging the microstructures. **TL;DR heat to the dullest faintest red as seen in a dark space, cooling doesn't affect softness but there are additional benefits to quenching such as speed and reduced oxides.**
@@SolarMillUSA Interesting info and I must assume that might be useful for some precision tasks, although I must doubt any plumber can see the difference in colours of copper while annealing, usually in quite lit up places and with equipment that will heat up a pipe with a flame that varies from blue to yellow along its surface, that is, a variety of temperatures playing all at the same time. How do you differentiate when the pipe is dull red or cherry red when all colours can happen at the same time along the length of a pipe, while you mover the flame along it? I must disagree this info is of any use in pipe work and similar tasks.
I have some 22mm copper tube bending to do and I'm seeing different advice about whether to quench afterwards or not. I think your approach to just let it cool in air is best, but do you know about this? I'll be using a spring bender of course! Thanks
In my experience I have found no noticeable difference in slow or fast cooling of copper. However, I must say that in my years as a gas fitter I didn't do much bending, I never owned a bending machine (I used my knee and sand), and in this context I never had any issue either with slow or fast cooling.
Tubing is softer than copper pipe. You may not need to anneal at all. @@esuohdica But if all the working steps harden the tubing excessively, then you need to anneal at some midpoint in the work. I recommend that you practice using the briefest amount of heat needed to reach 500°C, and promptly quench the outside with water to stop oxidation.
Thank you 😊 for refreshing my memory, I was thinking just heat , don't quench it , natural cooling, Great useful 👍 tips also 👌 Now I just have to master my soldering skills as seems not to want to "take " to the Cooper, Baker's soldering + flux paste seems useless😢 Baker's soldering Fluid I've always used for brasing Flux solder I just bought ,grwwwwww still as useful as a ashtray on a motor bike Even after phosphoric clean ends to be soldered😢
Have you practiced these various soldering and braising on fresh copper? Even shiny fresh copper has a thin layer of oxide, *_which must be abraded away_* just before applying flux. Solder flux doesn't work well at [removing] oxidized copper, it just prevents further oxidation during the brief soldering. @@geoffgeoff38 Annealing creates a hard thick layer of copper oxide, which has to be removed with even more abrasion. That's why nitrogen gas is used to keep away oxygen during factory annealing processes.
Thanks for your comment Joe. I don't know if there is any other way, but stretching copper and squashing it (like hitting it with a hammer), hardens it.
Thanks for your comment Minty. One anneals hard copper to soften it, turn it into soft copper. But soft copper hardens if you squash it, beat it or curve it, so even soft copper will need annealing after it hardens, if you want to keep on curving, beating or squashing it.
Thanks for the Demo! Just tried annealing a copper lugs for 4/0 this morning before I bent them. Probably didn't do it correctly, but I wanted to make sure they were as soft as possible to reduce the chances they weaken after I install them on the batteries. Any thoughts?
Below you will find some comments that might help. Some suggest dropping in water for a fast cool and better anneal. I haven't noticed any difference with slow cooling, but it won't harm you to try. Others say the colour of the copper can show you the optimal annealing temperature. I don't see that is useful with copper pipes, but with lugs it might be possible to stop at the right point. One thing is clear, with small or thin bits of copper it's easy to overdo the heat to the point of melting the copper and making it brittle.
@@RODsDIY thanks for the information. I have found they are fairly easy to bend even slightly hot. I think it's perhaps they are sent soft knowing that they will be crimped.
When it comes to bending copper pipes or forming copper sheets I have seen no difference in fast or slow cooling, and I have done some really thin forming in copper sheets (artistic forms). With steel maybe it's different, due to how the molecules behave, but I don't work with steel and I have never tried both methods. If copper, at a molecular level has different behaviours, and one method is better than the other, I really can't say.
Thank you very much sir. That was excellent!
Thanks for your comment Harold.
Thank you for these tips. Straightforward and easy to understand!
Thanks for your comment Joey.
Spanner, I like it. Old school advice. thank you.
Thanks for your comment dRats.
I only learned about the word "anneal" within the last hour and do very little handy work. I much prefer to learn from men like you that have experience and give several helpful details, especially for people like me that know almost nothing. Thank you.
Thanks for your comment Bobbie.
See immediately below: this is a follow-up. I also like to watch Proper DIY for the reason given below. This guy is so much more professional than most.
Thanks for your comment Bobbie.
Nice tips. I ❤ the knee trick.
Thanks for your comment KBMblizz. It helps if you have a fatter knee 😂😂😂
Great video. I don't have knowledge about the annealing of Copper pipe but after your video I Learned.
Thanks for your comment Arsalan.
I love this video. So clear and helpful. Thanks Rod!
Thanks for your comment Bower Bird.
Cheers Rod good well explained video keep it up m8
Thanks for your comment Boggy.
Liked and subscribed. I appreciate you posting this informative video.
Thanks for your comment Scott
Great video and tutorial Rod, thank you.
I wasn't aware that you could just let the copper slowly cool off.
The plumbing shop I worked for taught us to anneal copper by heating it to a cherry red, then quickly quenching it in water. It did make for a very soft and easily worked copper.
Well, maybe there is some degree of "softerness" in dropping it in water, but I've never noticed any significant difference.
@@RODsDIY The data suggests there isn't much difference in either quenching or air cooling. It's getting it up to the right temp that causing the annealing. However a longer cooling process, such as in air, will allow a thicker oxide layer to build, as well as slowing down the speed of work (you gotta wait for it). So water quenching means faster work cycles, less oxide build, as well as the thermal shock causing what oxide has built up to flake off. I should also note that cherry red is a bit too hot and can place you on the other side of annealed and cause excessive grain growth. You want what barely shows up as a dull, faint red in a dim room. A well lit space or bright daylight makes it hard to see this dull red. This detail is minor, and you are still getting the benefits of annealing by going to cherry red but are losing some integrity in the material. Copper anneals between 370C and 650C (700F to 1200F). The dullest "black" red is 500C(932F) which is more than enough to anneal. A bright "cherry" red is 800-1000C (1650F). That's 300C (572F) over temp!! You're just wasting fuel, building thick oxides, and damaging the microstructures. **TL;DR heat to the dullest faintest red as seen in a dark space, cooling doesn't affect softness but there are additional benefits to quenching such as speed and reduced oxides.**
@@SolarMillUSA Interesting info and I must assume that might be useful for some precision tasks, although I must doubt any plumber can see the difference in colours of copper while annealing, usually in quite lit up places and with equipment that will heat up a pipe with a flame that varies from blue to yellow along its surface, that is, a variety of temperatures playing all at the same time. How do you differentiate when the pipe is dull red or cherry red when all colours can happen at the same time along the length of a pipe, while you mover the flame along it?
I must disagree this info is of any use in pipe work and similar tasks.
Ahh, so that is why so many flakes were shed from the 45° sweep elbows. The surface was more oxidized due to getting hotter than needed.
I have some 22mm copper tube bending to do and I'm seeing different advice about whether to quench afterwards or not. I think your approach to just let it cool in air is best, but do you know about this? I'll be using a spring bender of course! Thanks
In my experience I have found no noticeable difference in slow or fast cooling of copper. However, I must say that in my years as a gas fitter I didn't do much bending, I never owned a bending machine (I used my knee and sand), and in this context I never had any issue either with slow or fast cooling.
Tubing is softer than copper pipe. You may not need to anneal at all.
@@esuohdica
But if all the working steps harden the tubing excessively, then you need to anneal at some midpoint in the work.
I recommend that you practice using the briefest amount of heat needed to reach 500°C, and promptly quench the outside with water to stop oxidation.
Thank you 😊 for refreshing my memory, I was thinking just heat , don't quench it , natural cooling,
Great useful 👍 tips also 👌
Now I just have to master my soldering skills as seems not to want to "take " to the Cooper,
Baker's soldering + flux paste seems useless😢
Baker's soldering Fluid I've always used for brasing
Flux solder I just bought ,grwwwwww still as useful as a ashtray on a motor bike
Even after phosphoric clean ends to be soldered😢
Thanks for your comment Geoff.
Have you practiced these various soldering and braising on fresh copper? Even shiny fresh copper has a thin layer of oxide, *_which must be abraded away_* just before applying flux. Solder flux doesn't work well at [removing] oxidized copper, it just prevents further oxidation during the brief soldering.
@@geoffgeoff38
Annealing creates a hard thick layer of copper oxide, which has to be removed with even more abrasion. That's why nitrogen gas is used to keep away oxygen during factory annealing processes.
Great. Thank you.
Thanks for your comment Oswald.
Is there any way to re-harden copper pipes?
Thank you sir for this awesome video!
Thanks for your comment Joe. I don't know if there is any other way, but stretching copper and squashing it (like hitting it with a hammer), hardens it.
Thanks! ™
You're welcome, and thanks for leaving a comment.
Great video. Was this hard copper or soft copper tubing?
Thanks for your comment Minty. One anneals hard copper to soften it, turn it into soft copper. But soft copper hardens if you squash it, beat it or curve it, so even soft copper will need annealing after it hardens, if you want to keep on curving, beating or squashing it.
Thanks for the Demo! Just tried annealing a copper lugs for 4/0 this morning before I bent them. Probably didn't do it correctly, but I wanted to make sure they were as soft as possible to reduce the chances they weaken after I install them on the batteries. Any thoughts?
Below you will find some comments that might help. Some suggest dropping in water for a fast cool and better anneal. I haven't noticed any difference with slow cooling, but it won't harm you to try. Others say the colour of the copper can show you the optimal annealing temperature. I don't see that is useful with copper pipes, but with lugs it might be possible to stop at the right point. One thing is clear, with small or thin bits of copper it's easy to overdo the heat to the point of melting the copper and making it brittle.
@@RODsDIY thanks for the information. I have found they are fairly easy to bend even slightly hot. I think it's perhaps they are sent soft knowing that they will be crimped.
If annealing hard copper pipe, do you quench it in water or just let it cool at room temperature. Would the two produce different results?
When it comes to bending copper pipes or forming copper sheets I have seen no difference in fast or slow cooling, and I have done some really thin forming in copper sheets (artistic forms). With steel maybe it's different, due to how the molecules behave, but I don't work with steel and I have never tried both methods. If copper, at a molecular level has different behaviours, and one method is better than the other, I really can't say.