GREAT EXPLANATION! THANK YOU for making this so simple to understand. I've watched more videos than I care to admit. Copper is my first attempt at working with metal and your input certainly helped.
A lot of what I know is just a combination of what you did, too many videos and research just with added in with thousands of hours of application and just experience with it. So I try to regurgitate the way I would like to have been told it thousands of hours ago xD
Thanks for the video! Prior to seeing this I had annealed some copper crush washers for brake banjos prior to lapping them flat for reuse. I had quenched them with water to speed the process and was worried after the fact that my quench had screwed up the annealing. Glad to hear that was not the case. In any case my brake lines remain nicely sealed.
I've had a few mentors but I get a lot of what I know from TH-cam first, then deep dive forums that are hard to find, then thousanda of hours of both work and testing xD When I make a vid I try including all I wish I knew when first looking xD if you have more questions in going to be doing some more vids coming up :) just let me know
@@vanguardsmithing7501 awesome! I’m making copper bracelets now, and the video I’m using, the guy uses ZERO words, so I’ve just been following his steps of heating and dipping, but I have no idea WHY. Ya know? Lol. So I’ve been just trying to get a feel for how the metal reacts to different conditions, but this explains everything perfectly. I’m gonna have to watch the rest of your vids, but I’m about to start working bronze and another video explain the properties of that metal would be awesome
Thank you I've been working with silver for a while but not too long and I wanted to know about copper. Silver's just gotten so expensive so I thought I might play around with all the copper I have! I didn't know how long to heat it and the color that you just showed was great information! Thank you again
Haha I'm happy it helped! :D I love to know what is happening, what to look for, and how to change it, combining research and experience to teach the information the way I would want it :D And after I edit it down I'm happy to have helped so many :)
You want to aneal it fully usually for wear, as if it's stiff bending it to get it on and off can tear the metal, if it just slips on then it can be harder tho
Currently, not presently. Presently means pretty soon, or in a little while. Currently means now. You could also say "at present" to mean now. This is where a lot of people get mixed up.
Your main issue while bending pipe is to keep it from collapsing the pipe itself, just make sure you use a pipe bender as well to keep from kicking the pipe
Yes it does, though you may have to worry about the solder on your lantern, the annealing is 600-800°F and solder typically around 400°F, the solder can typically be seen near joints and can be subtle. You can put a damp rag on the area with solder to keep it from heating up (I so it with blades all the time) but it will keep up to an 1" of material from heating up to the right temp. Be careful though the rag will be hot but if soaking wet won't catch on fire quickly- I'll see if I can do a video for you this week on it
Thanks for this! I suppose to harden copper tubing in place…the only way to really do it would be to insert some kind of steel rod and hammer around the exterior or something…? I was hoping I could get away with using it for weird art installation curtain tracking, due to the narrow diameter & ubiquity but it’s just TOO soft, there are places the curtains were tugged on naturally where it just bends. I guess in the future I could try filling it with resin or something but it’s been a bit of a bummer, was hoping to find a way to salvage what I already have up longevity wise. Thanks for any tips!
Hammering it like they can work, or if fill the inside of the tube with a wooden dowel to keep the look but reinforce it, you could also get a thicker walled pipe, or add more supports for the curtain
Thank you for all of this! I’m back at your vid again on another rod project, bc the web just brings me back to u. Youve been wildly more helpful even just w this short vid than what has been weeks of entire work days trolling the internet in the mainstream / plumbing world 🙃 Anachronistic/traditional trades seem to be the only way to go for me with the materials & goals I have. I’m still surprised how hard it is in mainstream search engines to find info on copper. I’m addicted to it, & design / grid out interiors in a practical way with salvaged & repurposed parts. It’s expensive so I keep running into materials issues when something experimental doesn’t work. Finally reached my limit I think on not using heat (my workshop is…very flammable, but I’m tapped out now on what I can accomplish without it). definitely going to keep closer tabs on your channel. I was hoping to get to smithing in reenactment recently but got stuck on the shave horse 😅 Time for some fire. Re: the tubing/piping- I’m always running into these issues bc even 1/2” type M is tricky & weak, & I abhor tracking with support stops everywhere. A partial solution is switching to conduit & perfecting my painting process, but it’s not the same as the solid stuff esp in depth of patina. Im looking into traditional still making, but willing to wager from topical research that traditional bending was all sand filler, heat, & finesse vs specific tools. I am wildly curious if sand filling, then keeping it packed while heating to bend etc & never removing it- would solve some of my issues. Gonna have to experiment with fillers. Cost is always a priority & I might try spray foam for the weaker/softer tubing. (The project I mentioned was for a canopy bed so I tried to go as narrow as possible wo the cost of solid copper or brass, & with as little support stops as possible). Current project is a custom double curved shower curtain rod. Thanks again for your insight / energy / vids! (Just blows my mind how uncommon it’s become for natural material crafts & know how in this age, seems unwise as a society to me 😬)
Good video bro, We have once meet at IMS, You told me an my friends a tip to never forge anything that is shiny an if you are, make sure to clean it right an let it soak in vinegar for a good while. Thanks bro good luck on the blacksmith.
That case I was warning about plated steel, which is coated with Zinc oxide, zinc oxide begins to form around 1400°F and is deadly poisonous, here I'm heating up up only 800°F and while there is zinc in the copper it wouldn't gas out unless I smelted it. But good job remembering! :D Always good to err on the side of caution, and if you are unsure be in a ventilated area or soak skinny steel in vinegar if you are unsure. And nice to hear from you again I remember that conversation! :D
Rapid quenching effects carbon steel with the formation of martensite crystals, but with copper, brass, aluminium rapid quenching does not effect the softening effects, you do need to hit that critical range of heat but don't need to wait the 10- 15 minutes for it to air cool
Thank you for the video! My friend suggested putting sheets of copper in the oven to soften it... Any idea what temperature and for how long I should heat it? It's only a few MM thick. I'm kind of wondering if a toaster oven would be even more viable since I just have little pieces :D
Your home oven can only really get to around 550 at most, you need to get to around 750-800 to soften and aneal the copper fully so I'd recommend a torch. Once the copper oxidizes (turns blackish as soon as you move the torch to let air get to it) hold the torch over the area for a few more secs, or when it just starts to glow red move on to heat the other areas, you can let brass and copper reach the red glow, but never aluminum- if you get aluminium that hot it usually ruins the grain structure or it melts like tissue paper
I use propane and maap gas, both can be found at the hardware store- the propane is blue and the maap is yellow, they work relatively the same and both work but the maap burns a little bit hotter
Amazing trick! Thanks for that. When i hammer the copper its edges become verry sharp..how can i make them rounded and soft again so i dont cut my wrists and fingers :-)
If you can't hammer it out smooth you can and the edges with either sandpaper 120-220 to start, higher if you need it more polished. If you have trouble holding the piece while sanding hold it in a pastor of pliers or a vice. For a nice round edge it's best to file both sides at a 45° angle going back and forth from one side to the other, then along the piece lengthwise along the edge
Before adding lacquer, I was cleaning a copper weaved bracelet. To make sure it was bone dry I placed it in a small toaster oven. When I pulled it out it had turned a goldish tint. I did not pay any attention to the time or temperature. I have yet to duplicate it. I was told it was “heat patina” to me. Any help on this technique?
I know nothing bout copper, if it can helps you what you said looks like anodizing to me, works for steel titanium and alluminum usually, you can do it by heat or electricity, idk if copper works with electricity as it is usually used for plating that is the opposite idea. if i were you i'll get some spare copper pieces of the same volume and try, you can work on heat and oxygen as parameters, if you wanna try with a blowtorch keep in mind that you see it getting colour with a delay (at least for the metals i know), so if you keep heating you skip to the next colours. it is a superficial process, so if you get something you dont like you can sand it off and try again. Hope it helps a bit :)
Yes it will! :D Brass won't anneal as soft as copper but they are similar enough with this method. With some alloys quenching can have different effects so experiment on snow scrap pieces. To check if oxides (that dull dark when it's heated up) are forming move the torch or great off the piece every few seconds. The gas from the torch displaces oxygen and won't let it react with the material visually. A few seconds of heat after oxides- not bubbles but that dark sheen- is usually enough to soften the piece
Nope it will either get harder with use, additional work, or if it's too hard and being flexed it can crack, but the only way too soften it is will heating but good question!
@@vanguardsmithing7501 So basically if I pound a copper sheet/spring and leave it on the table forever without applying any load/work towards it anymore, it will retain the same hardness/tension forever? (I am guessing this is a yes based on your response). Thank you so much for replying!
Does annealed copper self-harden after a certain time lapse? I seem to remember a Science Experiment 60 years ago when an annealed (real copper) penny could be bent with your fingers but after a minute or so; could Not.
I work a LOT with copper, and non ferrous metals and I have only seen the materials work harden after experiencing stress, load, or compression. The oxide layer that forms after and over time may so something as metal oxides are harder than the base material but that outer layer is initially brittle after annealing. So besides hardening occuring from long periods of oxidation or UV exposure, the grains structure wouldn't harden quickly without large changes in temperature, or being worked
@@vanguardsmithing7501 Thanks for Reply. Kinda remembered something Special about Copper but wasn't sure of the details. p.s., Good Video; again, Thanks
@@conjoeadams899 Your welcome! And to clarify I'm not saying you are wrong or it's not possible- just that from my research and personal experience I can't confirm it :) I know a lot of things- but there is a vast amount I don't know lol
I have not watched seven videos on how to soften copper supposably Anne hardnett most of them say heat it up but they never say what to do after that let it cool slowly let it cool fast throw it on the cold water nothing would someone please put some details in here so I can make my copper as soft as possible and we can all have fun
I heat it up to where you move the torch away and the copper turns darker with oxides, maybe soak it a few secs past that then quench in water. You can let air cool as well but it's not necessary. You can get a but if red glow in the copper of you are really paranoid about it being annealed as far as it can but that risks melting it as well so a few seconds after the darker oxides appear in the surface, then dunk into room temp water.
@@vanguardsmithing7501 It was grade 12 IB chemistry. We watched this for material science, where we had to learn about the molecular structure of metals
@@doughnutfeel6199 I did a lot of research on it myself because although I knew the cause and effect of annealing, I think a deeper understanding of what's going on when blacksmithing helps a lot! And while this information might be overkill for an artist, it helps to understand the why and what the material is doing. How to make the work, easier, and how to form the material vs split and shear it. I haven't had much time to do videos recently but I make them to help others learn what I didn't know but once I did I found it useful! And should pass it on in another format :)
Videos are hard to make xD and I actually have the problem of speaking too fast so I might over compensate when recording lol but hopefully it was helpful
Good video. Im a material science student, and it was very nice to see the theoretical concepts I learn used in a practical application
It makes me so happy when my videos help like this xD Glad to help!
GREAT EXPLANATION! THANK YOU for making this so simple to understand. I've watched more videos than I care to admit. Copper is my first attempt at working with metal and your input certainly helped.
A lot of what I know is just a combination of what you did, too many videos and research just with added in with thousands of hours of application and just experience with it. So I try to regurgitate the way I would like to have been told it thousands of hours ago xD
Thanks for the video! Prior to seeing this I had annealed some copper crush washers for brake banjos prior to lapping them flat for reuse. I had quenched them with water to speed the process and was worried after the fact that my quench had screwed up the annealing. Glad to hear that was not the case. In any case my brake lines remain nicely sealed.
Thank you for the information you shared it taken me awhile to figure out what to ask didn't know why you heat copper up before hammering it
Finally a vid that I was looking for
Haha that's why I made the video xD tried to make the video I needed as I was researching it myself
Exactly what I was looking for. I’ve been working copper, learning from yt blacksmiths but this explains it so well
I've had a few mentors but I get a lot of what I know from TH-cam first, then deep dive forums that are hard to find, then thousanda of hours of both work and testing xD When I make a vid I try including all I wish I knew when first looking xD if you have more questions in going to be doing some more vids coming up :) just let me know
@@vanguardsmithing7501 awesome! I’m making copper bracelets now, and the video I’m using, the guy uses ZERO words, so I’ve just been following his steps of heating and dipping, but I have no idea WHY. Ya know? Lol.
So I’ve been just trying to get a feel for how the metal reacts to different conditions, but this explains everything perfectly. I’m gonna have to watch the rest of your vids, but I’m about to start working bronze and another video explain the properties of that metal would be awesome
Thank you I've been working with silver for a while but not too long and I wanted to know about copper. Silver's just gotten so expensive so I thought I might play around with all the copper I have! I didn't know how long to heat it and the color that you just showed was great information! Thank you again
My college professor failed to explain this. Thank you for the demonstration.
You're welcome :D
Typical of most schools
Exactly the information I was looking for thank you.
Glad to have helped! It's frustrating when you are working with metal and it cracks on you as you try to form it
Finally! A helpful video! I needed this thank you!
Haha I'm happy it helped! :D I love to know what is happening, what to look for, and how to change it, combining research and experience to teach the information the way I would want it :D And after I edit it down I'm happy to have helped so many :)
really helpful still in 2023 bro thanks
Np! Glad it helped! 😀
This is great, I learned a lot. Thank you.
You're welcome! :D A little information saves a lot of headaches! :D
Great tutorial, thank you!
Interesting and good to know.
Thank you I'm working on a copper bracelet presently
You want to aneal it fully usually for wear, as if it's stiff bending it to get it on and off can tear the metal, if it just slips on then it can be harder tho
Currently, not presently. Presently means pretty soon, or in a little while. Currently means now. You could also say "at present" to mean now. This is where a lot of people get mixed up.
Thanks. I have some hard copper pipe I would like to soften to make malleable. Nice to know all I have to do is heat it with a torch.
Your main issue while bending pipe is to keep it from collapsing the pipe itself, just make sure you use a pipe bender as well to keep from kicking the pipe
Is there a way to harden copper without spreading it or marking it in any way?
Does the same apply to brass? Thin sheet repousse decoration on a lantern I want to straighten.
Yes it does, though you may have to worry about the solder on your lantern, the annealing is 600-800°F and solder typically around 400°F, the solder can typically be seen near joints and can be subtle. You can put a damp rag on the area with solder to keep it from heating up (I so it with blades all the time) but it will keep up to an 1" of material from heating up to the right temp. Be careful though the rag will be hot but if soaking wet won't catch on fire quickly- I'll see if I can do a video for you this week on it
@@vanguardsmithing7501 Thank you kindly I was thinking about that this afternoon!
Thanks for this! I suppose to harden copper tubing in place…the only way to really do it would be to insert some kind of steel rod and hammer around the exterior or something…? I was hoping I could get away with using it for weird art installation curtain tracking, due to the narrow diameter & ubiquity but it’s just TOO soft, there are places the curtains were tugged on naturally where it just bends. I guess in the future I could try filling it with resin or something but it’s been a bit of a bummer, was hoping to find a way to salvage what I already have up longevity wise. Thanks for any tips!
Hammering it like they can work, or if fill the inside of the tube with a wooden dowel to keep the look but reinforce it, you could also get a thicker walled pipe, or add more supports for the curtain
Also another method of all those don't work is to carefully hammer it into an oval shape, which will give it more lateral strength
Thank you for all of this! I’m back at your vid again on another rod project, bc the web just brings me back to u. Youve been wildly more helpful even just w this short vid than what has been weeks of entire work days trolling the internet in the mainstream / plumbing world 🙃 Anachronistic/traditional trades seem to be the only way to go for me with the materials & goals I have. I’m still surprised how hard it is in mainstream search engines to find info on copper. I’m addicted to it, & design / grid out interiors in a practical way with salvaged & repurposed parts. It’s expensive so I keep running into materials issues when something experimental doesn’t work. Finally reached my limit I think on not using heat (my workshop is…very flammable, but I’m tapped out now on what I can accomplish without it). definitely going to keep closer tabs on your channel. I was hoping to get to smithing in reenactment recently but got stuck on the shave horse 😅 Time for some fire.
Re: the tubing/piping- I’m always running into these issues bc even 1/2” type M is tricky & weak, & I abhor tracking with support stops everywhere. A partial solution is switching to conduit & perfecting my painting process, but it’s not the same as the solid stuff esp in depth of patina.
Im looking into traditional still making, but willing to wager from topical research that traditional bending was all sand filler, heat, & finesse vs specific tools. I am wildly curious if sand filling, then keeping it packed while heating to bend etc & never removing it- would solve some of my issues. Gonna have to experiment with fillers. Cost is always a priority & I might try spray foam for the weaker/softer tubing. (The project I mentioned was for a canopy bed so I tried to go as narrow as possible wo the cost of solid copper or brass, & with as little support stops as possible). Current project is a custom double curved shower curtain rod.
Thanks again for your insight / energy / vids! (Just blows my mind how uncommon it’s become for natural material crafts & know how in this age, seems unwise as a society to me 😬)
Good video bro, We have once meet at IMS, You told me an my friends a tip to never forge anything that is shiny an if you are, make sure to clean it right an let it soak in vinegar for a good while. Thanks bro good luck on the blacksmith.
That case I was warning about plated steel, which is coated with Zinc oxide, zinc oxide begins to form around 1400°F and is deadly poisonous, here I'm heating up up only 800°F and while there is zinc in the copper it wouldn't gas out unless I smelted it. But good job remembering! :D Always good to err on the side of caution, and if you are unsure be in a ventilated area or soak skinny steel in vinegar if you are unsure. And nice to hear from you again I remember that conversation! :D
I found out that (quickly) quenching very hot copper makes it soft.However if I heat it up red hot and then let it cool down slowly it becomes hard.
right. he knows nothing about cooper
Sure thing, idiots...
I thought that cooling it rapidly (quenching) actually HARDENS the material, no? Shouldn't you let it cool slowly in order to keep it soft?
Rapid quenching effects carbon steel with the formation of martensite crystals, but with copper, brass, aluminium rapid quenching does not effect the softening effects, you do need to hit that critical range of heat but don't need to wait the 10- 15 minutes for it to air cool
Thank you for the video! My friend suggested putting sheets of copper in the oven to soften it... Any idea what temperature and for how long I should heat it? It's only a few MM thick. I'm kind of wondering if a toaster oven would be even more viable since I just have little pieces :D
Your home oven can only really get to around 550 at most, you need to get to around 750-800 to soften and aneal the copper fully so I'd recommend a torch. Once the copper oxidizes (turns blackish as soon as you move the torch to let air get to it) hold the torch over the area for a few more secs, or when it just starts to glow red move on to heat the other areas, you can let brass and copper reach the red glow, but never aluminum- if you get aluminium that hot it usually ruins the grain structure or it melts like tissue paper
I haven't tried it but if it's thin enough over the burner on the oven might help? I usually use my torch or forge for annealing my metals
@@vanguardsmithing7501 thank thee :-)
is that propane/oxygen or just propane alone?
I use propane and maap gas, both can be found at the hardware store- the propane is blue and the maap is yellow, they work relatively the same and both work but the maap burns a little bit hotter
And it's just propane/maap alone, no oxy set up though it would speed up the heat process
Amazing trick! Thanks for that. When i hammer the copper its edges become verry sharp..how can i make them rounded and soft again so i dont cut my wrists and fingers :-)
If you can't hammer it out smooth you can and the edges with either sandpaper 120-220 to start, higher if you need it more polished. If you have trouble holding the piece while sanding hold it in a pastor of pliers or a vice. For a nice round edge it's best to file both sides at a 45° angle going back and forth from one side to the other, then along the piece lengthwise along the edge
Before adding lacquer, I was cleaning a copper weaved bracelet. To make sure it was bone dry I placed it in a small toaster oven. When I pulled it out it had turned a goldish tint. I did not pay any attention to the time or temperature. I have yet to duplicate it. I was told it was “heat patina” to me. Any help on this technique?
I know nothing bout copper, if it can helps you what you said looks like anodizing to me, works for steel titanium and alluminum usually, you can do it by heat or electricity, idk if copper works with electricity as it is usually used for plating that is the opposite idea. if i were you i'll get some spare copper pieces of the same volume and try, you can work on heat and oxygen as parameters, if you wanna try with a blowtorch keep in mind that you see it getting colour with a delay (at least for the metals i know), so if you keep heating you skip to the next colours. it is a superficial process, so if you get something you dont like you can sand it off and try again. Hope it helps a bit :)
Will the same principal work with brass?
Yes it will! :D Brass won't anneal as soft as copper but they are similar enough with this method. With some alloys quenching can have different effects so experiment on snow scrap pieces. To check if oxides (that dull dark when it's heated up) are forming move the torch or great off the piece every few seconds. The gas from the torch displaces oxygen and won't let it react with the material visually. A few seconds of heat after oxides- not bubbles but that dark sheen- is usually enough to soften the piece
@@vanguardsmithing7501 Awesome thank you!
How long does copper stay hard after hitting it? Does it get looser slowly with time?
Nope it will either get harder with use, additional work, or if it's too hard and being flexed it can crack, but the only way too soften it is will heating but good question!
@@vanguardsmithing7501 So basically if I pound a copper sheet/spring and leave it on the table forever without applying any load/work towards it anymore, it will retain the same hardness/tension forever? (I am guessing this is a yes based on your response). Thank you so much for replying!
Does annealed copper self-harden after a certain time lapse? I seem to remember a Science Experiment 60 years ago when an annealed (real copper) penny could be bent with your fingers but after a minute or so; could Not.
I work a LOT with copper, and non ferrous metals and I have only seen the materials work harden after experiencing stress, load, or compression. The oxide layer that forms after and over time may so something as metal oxides are harder than the base material but that outer layer is initially brittle after annealing. So besides hardening occuring from long periods of oxidation or UV exposure, the grains structure wouldn't harden quickly without large changes in temperature, or being worked
@@vanguardsmithing7501 Thanks for Reply. Kinda remembered something Special about Copper but wasn't sure of the details. p.s., Good Video; again, Thanks
@@conjoeadams899 Your welcome! And to clarify I'm not saying you are wrong or it's not possible- just that from my research and personal experience I can't confirm it :) I know a lot of things- but there is a vast amount I don't know lol
Pennies are no longer made with 100% copper. It may be that the alloy caused it to behave that way.
I have not watched seven videos on how to soften copper supposably Anne hardnett most of them say heat it up but they never say what to do after that let it cool slowly let it cool fast throw it on the cold water nothing would someone please put some details in here so I can make my copper as soft as possible and we can all have fun
I heat it up to where you move the torch away and the copper turns darker with oxides, maybe soak it a few secs past that then quench in water. You can let air cool as well but it's not necessary. You can get a but if red glow in the copper of you are really paranoid about it being annealed as far as it can but that risks melting it as well so a few seconds after the darker oxides appear in the surface, then dunk into room temp water.
Our chemistry teacher told us to watch this
Haha you have no idea xD this made my day :D What grade level? And are you currently studying crystalline chemistry?
@@vanguardsmithing7501 It was grade 12 IB chemistry. We watched this for material science, where we had to learn about the molecular structure of metals
@@doughnutfeel6199 I did a lot of research on it myself because although I knew the cause and effect of annealing, I think a deeper understanding of what's going on when blacksmithing helps a lot! And while this information might be overkill for an artist, it helps to understand the why and what the material is doing. How to make the work, easier, and how to form the material vs split and shear it. I haven't had much time to do videos recently but I make them to help others learn what I didn't know but once I did I found it useful! And should pass it on in another format :)
Do you have a contact number or email I have some questions I'm not sure how to ask the right questions properly
You can send me more on your question to me via email if that works for you (uploading images etc) @ Leonvanguard@gmail.com
@@vanguardsmithing7501 ok thank you very much I will be emailing you this afternoon and appreciate any advice and tips
No lie... I had to speed the video up by 1.5 just to listen bro lol
Videos are hard to make xD and I actually have the problem of speaking too fast so I might over compensate when recording lol but hopefully it was helpful
@@vanguardsmithing7501 it was very much. Thank you.
Omg 🙏 ! I’ve been furious with my attempt to make wire earrings cause that piece of sh”””” always breaks . 😂🫶🏼🫶🏼🫶🏼
😂😂😂😂😂