CLARA: But you don't die. You change. You pop right back up with a new face. DOCTOR: No, not for ever. I can change twelve times. Thirteen versions of me. Thirteen silly Doctors. CLARA: Okay, so you're number eleven, so DOCTOR: Ha. Are we forgetting Captain Grumpy, eh? I didn't call myself the Doctor during the Time War, but it was still a regeneration. CLARA: Okay, so you're number twelve. DOCTOR: Well, number ten once regenerated and kept the same face. I had vanity issues at the time. Twelve regenerations, Clara. I can't ever do it again. This is where I end up. This face, this version of me. We saw this planet in the future, remember? All those graves, one of them mine. The 11th doctor clearly say David was number 10 So he numbering him self in some order
Yup! Came here to say this! And he also referred to himself as "eleventh" in The Lodger, iirc. Even if the other Doctors don't refer to their incarnations with numbers, Eleven definitely did.
Doctor had been a Scientific Advisor for UNIT for a long time and knows all their paperwork - in "The 3 Doctors" the Brigadier learns that "his 2 Doctors" have a predecessor in the William Hartnell version. AND he had to whitness 3rd turning into 4th "Oh well, here we go again!" - Because of all the memory wipes on the 50th anniversary, UNIT never really noticed the War Doctor and the 10.2 version of a "half regeneration" while loading up the hand with enough energy to develop into a full person, happened inside the TARDIS with noone left to tell: Donna forgot, Rose was returned to the other universe and Captain Jack left Earth soon after (he can keep any secret, if necessary)... The 14th Doctor had to set up this meeting with his weelchair collegue, just to inform UNIT that he is someone NEW and not an aged verson of 10th - don't keep secrets from me, I know all the stuff - I was even there, two hours ago! The Master had noone to keep track of his regenerations and is quite unsure who he was at any given point in his timeline. Being dead for some time or incarcerated inside something else, does not help your mental health eighter...
Slight correction Ellie: the 11th Doctor actually did refer to himself as "11th". He did it in The Lodger, AND he knew the 11th Door in The God Complex was for him, so for a time, he did follow along too.
@@BrianMcallister-k6gbut that’s I suppose just because of an amount of TARDISes in atmosphere. If there have been 170 doctors general might’ve said: “ALL 170!”
@@BrianMcallister-k6g but then again the "all thirteen" line was an officer correcting the general when he said "all twelve", so I don't think we can take it as anything more than him pointing out there's another one.
I wish we could have some more of that creepiness when they enter the ballroom,and all the dummies laughing, stops and turn the heads following the gang as they walk thru!!BY THE GODS I LOVE THAT CREEPY WHO STUFF!!😂 Whats dude say?Gottle a Gill!! GOTTLE A GILL!!🤣😂🤪✌️🍻
19:24 I’d heard someone else say The Doctor declares Ruby as his best friend to signal his availability to Rogue, and that made sense to me. Like he’s letting Rogue know, “Oh, that girl I’m with? I’m not WITH her with her, she’s just my best friend.”
Yeah agree. And in fairness, saying "she's just my friend" would feel really diminishing to us, so of the two "best friend" is the better phrase. I also found it jarring at first, but on reflection it's fine.
i think it'll grow to be fitting, they just really need to hammer in these 2's relationship more, boom did it a little bit but then 73 yards, dot n bubble, and this most recent episode have given us practically nothing for their relationship
Richard Grant also played the Great Intelligence, and in one of his appearances he used “Intelligent Snow” which has a tied motif to Ruby Sunday who snows when she’s in danger or emotionally vulnerable
It would be brilliant if the Shalka Doctor is an addition created by the Great Intelligence when it bumped into the Doctors timeline. Who knows, maybe it hijacked the War Doctor's body as the Master did with Thirteen, until the process was reversed and we got Eccleston instead after a proper regeneration. When Thirteen got her body back, she didn't remember what the Master did while in her body... So maybe the Shalka Doctor is just ignored or forgotten by the Doctor.
What I’m liking is that the Doctor has gone through therapy, annnnnd is still going through rehab. Anytime Ruby has been dead/in danger, or the idiots on finetime refused to be saved, he freezes. It’s almost as though he’s healed from all his trauma, but still gets PTSD triggers.
I think it's clear now he definitely didn't go through therapy. What we saw was what we got. 14 split into 14 and 15, 14 stayed to actually heal and 15 just moved forward like always. No loop, 15 is still as damaged as always.
@@lostmonkey He specifically said that 14 was doing the therapy and 15 had benefited it because they were doing everything out of order. wibbly wobbly timey whimey
Jack is openly attracted to everyone and anyone, we only see rogue attracted to the doctor. One is just horny the other is a gay man. I really hope this is just a new character not a new face of Jack or River.
can't be Captain Jack because isn't he gonna be the Face of Boe? also I think it's been firmly established that River lived her life backwards, where her DEATH was the START of the Doctor meeting her for the first time. .... unless of course this is where the Grand Moff whispers to RTD to bring River back this way so her can work on something in the next seasons 😅👀
@@steelsheen River's arc could only reasonably be extended by 1. Showing more of her childhood before she met the Ponds (which would require a convincing child actress, I doubt they would go that route) or 2. Alex Kingston returning as a database projection, like she did at Trenzalore (which wouldn't make sense because she shouldn't age as she's essentially sophisticated computer programming). I love River but I think it's time to let her rest.
Yeah did they forget that there was a whole long plot about how Clara negotiated with the Time Lords to get the Doctor more regenerations, when his allotment was supposedly up?
Yup and the only time he verbally says it too!they have shown other faces/incarnations,but actually saying what position he is,yes 11is the only 1..😁✌️🍻
The 12 since Hartnell still may not have been the first incarnations/cycle of regenerations. If the timelords can arbitrarily add to generations who’s to say it hasn’t happened before.
Smith's Doctor numbers the ones he remembers, and still believes he has a limit, because at that time(no pun intended) he didn't know about the timeless child shenanigans, because of the memory wipe from the Time Lords. I feel like Rassilon and the Time Lords knew he would regenerate regardless and pulled out the jumper cables to trigger the regeneration, so he wouldnt suspect anything. The Doctor then interprets this as them giving him a "whole new regeneration cycle"
The original curator has to been a doctor who has regenerated many times cause he just hints to things and makes jokes about old faces returning to matt smiths 11ths doctor so he has to have lived for a very long time. @@SWHEWAEW
Well, yes he did say "the original you might say" but he didn't say it as in "I am the first face of the doctor" but instead meant it as "I'm the Doctor the word doctor is based on"
I think as long as the romance isn't tredding the same ground as before, then I'm open to it for the Doc. We've had a wife with River, we've had unrequited companion love with Martha, danger enduced temporary feelings with Amy, and we've had a companion romance with Rose, so if Rogue ends up a longterm longdistance boyfriend that eventually ends in mutual breakup (preferably not tragic death!) I'd be down for exploring this romance angle for the Doctor!
Russel Davies said that Ruth Madeley had a scheduling conflict which is why she isn't in the finale. They liked Lenny Rush in Space Babies and brought him back when Ruth wasn't available. The character of Shirley will be back in the next series.
It makes sense that an organisation like UNIT would have multiple scientific advisors, with varying specialities, so I have no issue with the idea that Shirley was off on assignment somewhere when whatever happens in the finale started happening.
I think the way that 'find me' scene played out, it was unilateral. Basically both knew that there are countless dimensions and that it's next to impossible to find someone there but then rogue still said 'find me' and pushed the button. I don't think the doctor even had the time to promise this, so it would be a stretch for rogue to actually wait and expect to be found
While I agree I also think that bc of the intense passion we saw between the 2 I think the doctor will still look for him but finds him by accident in a way ykwim?
I have had a head canon theory since the Great Intelligence episode. When he walks into the time stream, he is everywhere in the Doctors timeline. Who is to say he stole the Doctors identity and his Tardis and pretended to be him. As the Shalka Doc was canon briefly... that is where we get a REG 9th... BUT as soon as Clara steps in reverses all of that and takes the Shalka/REG out of canon. Briefly he was the Doc and had his two adventures and then not. Has RTD put it back in due to the Toymakers 'Jigsaw' comment?
Idk, I felt Rogue was closest to Madame de Pompadour and the episode had similar vibes to Girl in the Fireplace (the non-Moffat TM elements). The Doctor was instantly taken with them the course of an episode, and then lost them in the end after offering to take them away with him.
I literally haven't been able to fault an episode in this series (Except Space Babies, sorry, that one is being repressed). But I just realised something that I really miss... I miss those moments in the Tardis at the beginning and end of each episode, the warm up to the adventure to come, the cooldown at the end - The whirling and roaring of the Tardis and the excitement of the companion to open those doors. The banter and laughing between the Doctor and Companion. I love this season, but I just realised how wonderful those little moments were.
Yes, definitely But, not gonna lie Judging by the fact that, Toymaker and Maestro have been messing with the laws of the universe, maybe the singing is part of the things they added
He will definitely be known as the dancing doctor. I suppose he's also the singing doctor. I'm sure this is something that Gatwa was happy to include as part of his character.
When they introduced the War Doctor however, 11 does mention that he's one of his 13 regenerations so it still fit neatly into the idea of the Doctor being limited to so many faces. And then of course immediately after he says that, the Time Lords give him more regenerations so that clearly opened the door to maybe he had more before. It works. My issue with TTC is not that there were more doctors before Hartnell, it's that it made the doctor more special than they needed to be. I personally fancy the idea of the Doctor just being another Time Lord who happened to step up when the call was made. I'm also okay with the idea of the Other from the extended universe where there was a progenitor of the society that just got reincarnated as the Doctor. But then to do what they did with TTC and give the Doctor this even more fantastical origin and basically essentially just give him infinite incarnations that his entire planet abused, tortured, brainwashed, and took advantage of for millennia.... I just don't gel with that. I don't think it's complicated to grasp, but I think it just messes with the lore too much and also went in a completely different direction from where they were going with the 12th's relationship with Gallifrey. I also don't like how they didn't really go further with the Master's beef over it. The Master got upset that he wasn't special and killed Gallifrey as a result, but I wish they spent more time with the two characters actually sussing out their relationship and how this new information changes it rather than the Master just throwing a temper tantrum well the Doctor stood in shock completely useless for the rest of the episode. Also Flux completely ruined whatever momentum they could have built up by just muddying that origin story even further. I had no idea what was going on and they don't explain it and I don't like it.
right?? 😁 I was shocked 🤯 but pleasantly so because he's such an excellent actor. I want some more behind the scenes stories specially with makeup and wardrobe because there are hilarious stories from other works he's done about his over zealous sweat pores 😅😅😅
The way the Doctor/Ruby relationship went from meeting to friends for 6 months so quickly again makes me think of the way time jumped for Donna in The Library. I still wouldn’t be surprised if this whole season will be some sort of simulated reality with River or Doctor Moon being the one who waits.
I like that idea but I highly doubt it will be previous characters from a Moffat story. I think more likely a new powerful being, but what do I know 🤷🏽♂️ only time will tell
In the Five Doctors, when the 1st Doctor meets the Fifth, he enquires “Regeneration?” (As the process is still in his personal future and something he has not yet experienced) and the Fifth Doctor acknowledges this and says “fourth!” And the first Doctor says “Goodness me, so there are 5 of me around!”. Incidentally, I’ve actually seen some fans criticize this statement and say “but the fourth Doctor was Tom Baker!” yes, dense creatures, but it was the THIRD Regeneration, the actual process, that led to the Fourth Doctor, just as the fourth regeneration was fourth Doctor turning into the Fifth Doctor. So even that shows the Doctors referred to themselves on some level as the fifth incarnation of the first Doctor (who has been thru four regenerations, etc). So however RetconFans want to play it, the Doctor definitely thought he began with the 1st Doctor/WIlliam Hartnell/Richard Hurndall/etc etc etc. It may have been something that the earlier production teams had played loose with such as the faces in “Brain of Morbius” but by the Deadly Assassin the Regeneration Limit has been set at a hard 12 (12 regenerations for 13 Doctors or 13 different incarnations of the TimeLords at that time, as confusing as regular language is to describe this all! :-) And by The Five Doctors they certainly referred to the Doctors as First Doctor, second Doctor, etc. Still not a fan of the Timeless Child, tho it may be more the way it was portrayed onscreen than the base idea itself. But the inclusion of the Richard Grant Doctor is just ludicrous and confusing and ultimately pointless just as things were starting to calm down. It’s like even RTD is saying screw history, we can throw in any rando we want, and we dont feel any obligation to explain it to fans or give any background or reason for it. And it further seems they simply write off anyone who finds this fluid history diconcerting as taking it all “too seriously” and that we should lighten up, yet if it’s something they find upsetting then how can fans be so lax in their fandom and devotion to Who? It’s driving me a bit crazy atm and turning Who on its head. Or someone’s head, because who can be sure whose heads are even Who’s at this point! :-)
@@yusufgazi7don't say things you have no clue about. Capaldi never said "all 13" it was the gallifreyan general who said that because he saw 13 different faces. While Matt Smith acknowledged at his last day that he technically is 13.
It was a fun episode, and yes, I'd also call it Classic New Who. There was one scene where Indira blinked, and although it was vertical (as we do blink) vs horizontal, which could only be achieved via cgi, the way she did it was *really* bird-like. Amazing!
On the numbering: Pre-Timeless Children, the Doctor seemed to genuinely believe in the numbering system, having no knowledge of the previous incarnations eg. Fugitive. They WERE aware of War, but actively chose to exclude War from the count because they felt he was "not the Doctor". We hear 11 refer to himself as the Eleventh mutliple times, as well as 10 as "10" once, so at this time they still believed in those numbers. As for the Shalka Doctor... We never saw what face War finished regenerating into on screen. It's possible there were more regenerations in between War and 9, which the Doctor ALSO chose not to count as numbered Doctors for whatever reason, or it's possible the memory of those faces could've been wiped from the Doctor somehow. Or it's possible that the Toymaker HAS re-written the Doctor's personal timeline, adding in Shalka or any other additional incarnations, anywhere in the list he feels like. Ultimately... The time has long passed for us to stop caring about numbering, or even what order these faces occured in. The Doctor has had a massive number of faces, mostly off-screen and the numbers are just lingering nicknames based on now defunct information.
In-universe the numbering did matter, because of the limited number of regenerations, which came up several times. Nevermind when the Time Lords themselves called out "all THIRTEEN Doctors!" with Capaldi's first appearance on the show. Emphasis on the word "all."
"Some of the faces look weirder than others"... I think that's because they didn't have the actor to pose and had to pull a still where they're looking in the right direction, correct profile... but maybe was in mid conversation, or just in a completely different mood of the scene. Never take a picture while talking.
I feel like when they entered Rogues ship and the doctor said how dirty it was, he immediately asked who he'd lost. Showing us what it would look like if the doctor himself traveled alone
Matt Smith absolutely called himself the eleventh in The Lodger after the head-bonk info dump, and he also (IIRC) had a football kit with an 11 as a little cutesy hat-tip.
The only time I can remember where the numbering system is mentioned in canon was in the Five Doctors, where 'one' says to 'five' "So there are five of me now."
The 5th Doctor describes himself to the First Doctor as being the fourth regeneration and then the First Doctor cheerfully reacts with the "So there are five of me now" :-)
Those of us who have not watched Bridgerton, have it seems seen or heard or read enough Austen etc to be able to follow the story quite well. I agree that Rogue has a lot of "Captain Jack" vibes.
My theory: doctor has been in some sort of dream/story state and the reason so many characters are reminiscent of others is because of this. Rogue - jack, Susan twist - Clara/Me, Mrs. Flood speech patterns remind me of Tallulah (daleks take manhattan), h. Arpenger/ she is a herold of mad max/ mad max is the worst prime minister ever - harold Saxon. almost dream changed versions. The storylines have reminded me of dream memories of different genres or stories. The labyrinth, a musical, scary, historical romance… like changing channels or reading books.
Plus the whole season starts “once upon a time…” in the church on ruby road. And ruby Sunday, cherry Sunday they are story book names… meeting another person named Monday?
Good Theory ..... I have seen one that I really like .... That the Doctor is stuck inside in a TV Show and knows it .... Hence the number of fourth wall breaks and his sonic looking like a remote. There is a video about it that also points out that the Doctor hears the incidental music at one point and references it and its what lets him know Ruby is in danger.
Yea I’ve been thinking for a very long time that they aren’t always in reality. It’s been reminding me of like story books kinda like when the doctor went into the pandorica and the Roman’s/ Pandora’s box was based on Amy’s favorite stories as a kid. But it might tie into Ruby because the maestro says she has the same power that “he” does. Or something like that. So maybe she can alter reality somehow or induce dream states. The movement in the episodes don’t always make sense and we hardly ever see the tardis take off or land in any of the episodes, they’re just there suddenly. When we do see the tardis moving it’s inconsistent like either flying like a space ship or fading in and out like normal but it’s not the same every time. And there’s tons of references to “playing games” and magic tricks throughout the whole season.
The thing is we only assume the Shalka Doctor is an alternative 9th Doctor because of when Scream of the Shalka came out (he would have been 9th assuming he was after Paul McGann) but now we have whole acres of timeline real estate up for grabs he could be anywhere... And given that someone is Clearly giving the Shalka Doctor orders I am going to suggest he is a Division Doctor. Sure the Tardis is a police box but so is the Fugitive Doctor's and sure you have the robot-master but I am sure timey-wimey shenanigans can explain that.
That shot of Jodie. I do miss her. Ncuti is great btw. I wanted more of Jodie (episodes )during her time I hope she comes back in a future episode or something.
Every episode we get keeps making me think that the season finale will reveal that they are within a TV show (in universe). The way they mentioned plot twist this episode drove that further
I dont like it when people say "the doctor is/isnt this" re; romance in this case but thats a general rule We all know every doctor has their own personalities and with Ncuti being as naturally flirty as he is, it is a required component but i also wouldnt buy him being flirty with everyone. He gives the vibe of someone who is flirty but only to one person he really likes Whereas Matt Smiths portrayal felt so naturally sexless and asexual. I think its all down to the actors own strengths and weaknesses
The way I see it is that Richard E. Grant's regeneration is just another example of the Toymaker making a jigsaw out of the Doctor's history. I wouldn't be surprised if this is just the beginning and Russell winds up making other non-canon and/or contradictory things canon.
I think we have to say that The Toymaker's line "I made a jigsaw out of your life" can explain a lot of this. That could explain both the Timeless Child Jo Martin Doctor AND the Richard Grant Shalka Doctor suddenly appearing when they never appeared in similar scenes before. I must confess, being a HUGE Peter Cushing fan, even though his Doctor Who can only be an "alternate universe" Doctor, I still would have squealed like a tiny Japanese schoolgirl if they had shown that Doctor with the others.
The numbering surely begins in 'The Three Doctors'. Pretty sure the Chancellor or President or whoever it is starts talking about them like that. It never used to be such a thing because there were fewer of them. And the past was pretty much done and dusted, rather than constantly available.
I look at statements like "all 11 of them" as technically true at the time, but because things are timey-wimey, could have retroactively changed for there to be more. We now have three un-numbered Doctors plus a reused face with two numbers, so we've got to be flexible in our thinking.
The Doctor refers to Sarah Jane Smith in the episode “Seeds Of Doom” as his “best friend”, but in a later season refers to a companion as his “second best friend”. I wish I could remember the episode but I can’t at the moment but it stood out to me that when he referred to someone as his “second best friend “ he was referring to Sarah Jane as the first.
Richard Grant is also the Great Intelligence, who jumped into the Doctors timeline. Maybe he wasn't the ninth but that got rewritten after Name of the Doctor? Or maybe he was the ninth doctor but of a different cycle as granted in the Time of the Doctor or from the Timeless Child?
I think the 'six months passing' thing is due to episode re-ordering? There's been talk that this should have been the episode after Space Babies, and The Devil's Chord was moved from here to tie in with Eurovision and a strong character on that first double bill. That would also explain why Ruby only mentioned their first trip when she tries to convince the Doctor that she's really Ruby.
Theory: The sound in the trailer for “The Legend of Ruby Sunday” where Mel says, “Doctor, there’s something wrong” and Kate says, “Whatever it is, here it comes…” is the same sound the TARDIS made when the Doctor plugs the transport device in and Rogue asks what that was, to which the Doctor replies, “Nothing… indigestion. She gets upset by bounty hunters….”. So, perhaps S TRIAD Technology really is derived from TARDIS technology… and the TARDIS is none too happy about it.
I look at the Doctor telling Rogue Ruby is his best friend as him letting Rogue know he showed up to the dance with her but was not *with her. Contextually, that's how it played, in my opinion.
12:50 But the whole point of the Eleventh Doctor's regeneration was the fact he was at the end of the cycle He even said he was the Eleventh and that the "Tenth had vanity issues"
I only managed to get round to watching the episode today and I was blown away! They captured so much of what reminded me of a ‘classic episode’ (I told me friend it took me back to the Tennant era). This episode played with my emotions in the best way and I really hope Rogue returns in season 2 (based on his last line, I’m going to assume this to be the case). Definitely my number one episode so far.
what if Richard E Grant as the doctor is a red herring and the great intelligence is making a return???? The snow would make sense and could be controlling Susan Twist's character. Both from the classic era and NewWho
After watching this episode I went back and watched Human Nature/The Family Of blood. There are some incredibly interesting comparrisons to be made, I will let you find them for yourself, but it almost feels like to make Rouge they (at least in part) took elements from Family Of blood (Doctor becoming human via a magic watch excluded) and repurposed them.
The fate of the Angry Birds is so close to the fate of the Family of Blood... Plus Rogue's cloaked ship was like theirs. Unless you want to remember the cloaked Klingon ship parked in San Francisco in Star Trek The Voyage Home. Definite echoes.
I know he is there because of Shalka but I think it could be interesting if Richard E Grant's face has something to do with the great intelligence jumping into the doctor's time stream. It would be cool if Richard E Grant came back to play the Valyard (or just the great intelligence again.)
I think the reason why we feel all of this is too fast and we missed a lot with the characters is because a Season is only 8 episodes. We just got episode 6 which wouldn't even be half of the previous runs at total 13 episodes each season
this is unsourced, i saw it on reddit, but reportedly, richard e. grant's inclusion was an easter egg put there by the vfx artists and the specific artist who signed off on it hadn't even heard of scream of the shalka, that's the very handsome doctor from curse of fatal death
Ellie, yay welcome back. Missed you. Hope you enjoyed a fantastic holiday Rogue. So so good. I lost my mind hearing "Can't get you out of my head" & "Poker Face" I'm wondering, maybe there is more to this bi-regeneration that there seems to be. Maybe we might revisit some old friends?
There's been several In-Universe references to the Numbers of The Doctor. Both subtle and not to subtle. There's a mention in Journey's End, as other comments have pointed out, “Number ten once regenerated and kept the same face. I had vanity issues at the time.” There's "All 13" in the 50th Anniversary special (Slight reach there, though). There's the cheeky nod Clara gives in The Bells of St. John, where we see Artie reading a book. "Summer Falls," by Amelia Williams (which we know is an Amy Pond reference). He tells her he's on chapter 10 (meaning, the 10th doctors story). She says that "eleven is the best... you'll cry your eyes out." A clear reference to the 11th Doctor, and.. well, everything he went through before meeting Clara... which results in that book existing.
Re: Rogue. Loved it, tbh. Big improvement over dot and bubble. Re: panic about gay Doctor, kissing another man. On BBC. I think the new management are trying to change the Doctor into a more normal guy: lonely, looking for more than hanging around with dotty friends he has to babysit. He's growing up! Call it "About a Time Traveler" but without the good luck to cast Hugh Grant. For 60 years we assumed he was a sex-less humanish alien who took an interest in travelling with his pet humans. Think of him as a British school instructor without the home life because fate seems to have condemned him to be on never-ending school outings. He doesn't sleep apparently, or have a dining area, or any hobbies. Or a library or a bathroom. To say he is a bit thin in representation at this point is an understatement. This is a fairly limited palette to work with -- barely above a travel show, certainly not Harry Potter level. But they made it into an adventure show thanks to campy villains and the occasional thoughtful moment -- pretty impressive. Throw in the regeneration gimmick -- absolute genius if you want to replace your star when it is convenient -- and you have the makings of a sustainable, albeit gimmicky show. Would Who have done as well over the years if he fell in love and showed it more explicitly? I don't know. But we are about to find out. It's worth remembering that the Doctor did have River Song in his life. It's just that it wasn't presented very explicitly. A "sort of wife" is how Davies referred to her, or was it Moffat who said this, can't remember -- but certainly not like any wife I've ever had (I was lucky enough to have had 2, both pretty impressive -- not the stuff of vague memories I can tell you.) And of course the River relationship was heterosexual, so not controversial to many. I think homophobia and change in the show in general are the issue here for some of the traditional viewers of the show. And I think the BBC/and now Disney? are having a hard time figuring out whether Who is supposed to be for children. If BBC wants the show to remain British and be as sustainable as it has been, it will have to think about some of these issues. Regardless, I'm a long-time fan -- a man in my late 60s -- and not wilting in the face of a gay Doctor who happens to be able to look okay dancing. And who seems able to appreciate another man looking good in a jacket. It's kind of fun, actually.
The numbering does matter though, just like there was the War doctor during the time war, its more of a mental state id say. On the timeless child, i think the doctor is either the se being as the toymaker but he is the physical embodiment of time in the main universe, somehow banished as a child. The "Lord Temporal" line said by maestro could easliy have been what they were called eons ago. It also works that the galifreyans would abuse the power of the doctor for themselves. The One Who Waits, is prolly gonna be revieled in season 2 or 3, would be a waste otherwise. They would destroy earth by cosplaying as politicians or royalty or something along those lines, leading to war everywhere, most likely.
When? Never heard him do that. First time his eyes popped up the gallifreyan general was saying "all 12 of them" and then his guy left to him (not the doctor) says "no sir all 13". So no capaldi never announced the number. The only one who actually said the number was 5. He said he regenerated 4 times. And then smith who acknowledges that he is on his last life and he technically is 13. Because of war doctor and metacrisis. Only now it gets worried with fugitive and Grant's
I think we can easyly solve the lineage (since christopher eccelston did appear as one of the faces) to say that Richard E. Grant could be a face from his time on the division or even the one after the fugitive doctor, since we don't know where to put Fugitive before Hartnell. I always thought that maybe the Jo Martin Doctor was the first to call herself the doctor after she split from the division. Grant could be a face after or before her... And still have the adventures as we know it. It would be the story we know with slight changes, like Russel did with the Star Beast. Maybe he was the real 9th doctor after the timeless child became the doctor...
I don't know if any one has mentioned this before but the music playing whilst the Doctor and Rogue dance is by the legendary Grace Jones. It's called "I've seen that face before".
Welcome back, Ellie, hope you had an amazing birthday break. I just watched the making of this episode, and when they talk of the interior or of Rogue's ship, they talk about the, 'Assarian' (spelling via the subtitles) ship ! Personally, I get the strange feeling that given that Rogue could actually be a different incarnation of The Doctor. My basis for this theory are : they instantly understand each other's 'traveler saving the universe' lifestyle, the hexagonal control section of a time traveling ship that can disguise itself. It would actually be very on-brand for RTD that the one person The Doctor relates to and falls for is actually another incarnation of himself ! Anyone else think that could be the case ? :)
I noticed the similarities between the ships/sheds, but I think Rogue's console was octagonal. My eyesight is rubbish, though, so I could be wrong! The Master and Missy hit it off back in the day, and I found that icky. Personally I hope that the Doctor wasn't snogging himself! However, Rogue could be a Time Lord, or someone from wherever the Timeless Child came from.
@@Michelle-cz3kz I was just wondering if Rogue maybe went through a dimensional porthole, landed on some planet, let's say... Gallifrey, but did not survive the fall and regenerated into The Timeless Child .... literally a child ? BTW... just for info, I just watched the 'making of' the episode and it referred to Rogue's ship as the ' Assarian ship' (spelling via the subtitles) ?!? :)
@@LeFouGallois You could be right: someone fell through that wormhole, after all. But I have hopes for the romance with Rogue so I hope he's not an earlier incarnation of the Doctor!
Also see River Song's cheat sheet (wallet of cards) of pictures of all incarnations of the Doctor she was aware of. It;s all up in the air now .. especially post Toymaker. I wouldn't be surprised to see more incarnations appear randomly in future.
My head cannon is all of the doctors that aren’t numbered (minus the war doctor) are pre Hartnel while the Doctor was apart of the division. Once the doctor got kicked out of division, the time lords locked there memories away/ put a limit on there regeneration to 12. This would make Clara begging the time lords for there help in giving the doctor a new batch of regenerations still meaningful and solve that plot hole
I May believe a connection could be with The Five Doctors, Triangle is a symbol of the Dark Tower, death zone, during the time when Timelords abuse the powers to be God, This has also shown The Master relieve of his Regenerations by the Time Council which can explain Doctor Many Faces, Rassilon was forced back in time by the 10th Doctor, Susan, Doctors Grand daughter had a bad ending as Doctor felt that Susan was Grown up and closed the tardis door locked leaving Susan behind, Susan Surname was the same name as the old Scrap yard name, so we don't know the real name, Susan did got called to fight the Time War against the Doctor Orders, Twist or Mrs Flood could be Leela as she was rescued by the Fourth Doctor before the Daleks taken control
THANKS for this!!!!!!! Interesting point about the six months!!! And The One Who Waits...hmm.... I, too, was not impressed with the baddies. The Daleks would take them out in five minutes :) And yes, where's Ruth/"Shirley?" That was my fav..... !!!! Rose looks like a UNIT intern! The wait for Friday night at 7 p.m. EST continues!!!!
12:54 welll "UMACKSTUALLY" in Time And The Rani. The Doctor does say that that is his 7th body but whatever lol And on the note of the Seventh, whilst I agree that I don't particularly like the treating The Doctor as a god, there was a thing unnofficially dubbed "The Cartmel Master Plan" from the late 80s that the Timeless Child seems pretty compatible with. Just ofc the show was cancelled before it went anywhere definitive.
I feel that the Big Bad involving Susan Twist is Hecuba. As part of the Lost Stories collection, there was The Queen Of Time (Big Finish 2012), she battled the 2nd Doctor, Jamie & Zoe. She is the sister of the Toymaker and likes to also play games, but with time. She also has an association with sand & dust, as in the Sands Of Time. In the storyline, she sits outside the realms of the universe and time.. waiting for her time of revenge & also likes to use her Time Cube to manipulate past & future events for fun
100% agreed that the Doctor shouldn't be romantically involved with their companion, especially with so many being them teenagers when they meet the ancient Doctor. I'm also totally ok with the Doctor saying "I've had my romantic stage of life, and I'm ready to go back to just having friendships." I'm not personally a fan of the one-off romantic episodes, but love the River Song marriage because it was drawn out and had room to breathe, not rushed. Speaking of which, I feel like this new era is not giving River much respect. The Doctor spends a moment in episode 2 to talk about Susan (which he rarely does), but there were two moments here where he could have at least said her name or mention he had a wife - the "who did you lose" conversation and the moment with the ring (Twelve's the only one who wore a wedding ring, and it was in honor of River). In the novelization of the Giggle, in that final scene with Fifteen and Fourteen, Adric gets a paragraph. Sarah Jane gets a paragraph. Rose gets a paragraph. River gets her name drop and that's it. I don't know, after Eleven waiting to tell Clara about River until Clara met her, after Thirteen not telling Yaz about River until their time together was nearly over, and after Fourteen not even mentioning River to Donna (who's met River and would actually appreciate the information), I'm a little sick of the Doctor holding River and the memories of her so close to their chest.
The thing is that the Doctor never actually has had a romantic relationship with a companion. Rose and the Doctor never actually got romantic until the metacrisis. I did check on 4 and Romana, because I couldn't remember if they were married in the show (in addition to being married in real life), and it seems not, but there was apparently a series of tv commercials in which they got engaged! (In Australia, the PR1ME Computer ads in 1980.)
Russell has laid all the groundwork for the Shalka Doctor reintroduction (and he touches every script that crosses his desk, so he will have added this, as fun as it is to think Kate may have been responsible). So - The Toymaker, (a being who is able to manipulate matter with thought and to whom time and space is nothing but an illusion, lest we forget), told us in the Giggle that he had made a jigsaw out of the Doctor's past. RTD has stated in many interviews that the purpose of this was to create wiggle room in whatever this show counts as canon (ie nothing, but some fans insist that it must have it, so here is the get-out clause). In doing this, he has pulled Richard E Grant's unofficial 9th Doctor into the main continuity. But it gets even better than that! Tales From The TARDIS introduced the Memory TARDIS. Dialogue presented within those short pieces states out right that multiple timelines now exist - most notably from the 7th Doctor, who says that in some of those he regenerates, in others he doesn't. RTD has stated that the effects of the Bi-generation reverberated throughout the Doctor's entire timeline, meaning that every past Doctor both regenerated and also stayed the same. But it gets even better than that! If Grants alternative 9th Doctor can be pulled in, so can other alternatives, including the "Unbound" Doctor's from Big Finish. But BEST OF ALL Rowan Atkinson is now an official incarnation of the Doctor, which I think is borderline joygasmic. But even more even more than that, in The Curse of the Fatal Death, Atkinson's Doctor is shown to regenerate multiple times. One of those times is Richard E Grant. So thanks to the Toymaker messing with the Doctors past, entwining multiverses and mashing it all together, AND the process of Bi-generation, Grant's Shalka Doctor is now not just a stand alone Doctor, but a continuation of his Curse of the Fatal Death incarnation. And people thought the Timeless Child retcon was confusing! I FECKING LOVE THE AUDACITY OF IT Oh - and the Doctor HAS numbered himself a few times - notably the 5th (who openly states on screen that he is the fourth regeneration) and the 11th, more than once. But of course it's all irrelevant and everything depends on the showrunner/production team! The show has never really had anything resembling an official cannon, and long may that continue
The numbering system for Classic Who was established in Canon in the 5th Doctor serial Mawdryn Undead. But it conflicts with the 4th Doctor serial Brain of Morbius. It was further solidified in The Time of The Doctor. He was at the end of his 12th regeneration. If we accept as authoritative show runner and director commentary as to what something in their show meant, then we've known since the Tom Baker era that there were at least 5 pre-Hartnel incarnations. So, the 5th Doctor specified that he had 8 regenerations remaining. And, because of Brain of Morbius, we know that he was at least the 10th incarnation, not the 5th. That creates a problem until we later learn that the Timelords can grant additional regeneration cycles. Therefore, even before Timeless Child, we could reasonably infer that The Doctor was on AT LEAST his second set of regenerations. Thus making Matt Smith the 25th Doctor - at the absolute youngest the character could possibly be. And all of this is established, or can be reasonably inferred, before the conclusion of Matt Smith's run. And much of it before the conclusion of McCoy's era. The flip side of that is we don't accept such statements from show runners and directors as definitive. In which case nothing that RTD has said about his episodes matters. It isn't Canon until it is explained on screen.
I love you guys. Not just the obvious two faces. ALL OF YOU. I would love to see a video in your voices about how many people The Doctor has killed, and why.
I really hope this is done better than I can explain it, but could the line about Ruby being the Doctors best friend link back to Ruby being a part of the Tardis (their real best friend)? We know the Tardis isn’t well. We know this twist has something to do with the Tardis. We know the Tardis was born and is a living thing. We know that Ruby can bring not only snow, but also music from her birth. It’s almost as if she’s materializing her birth setting around the people near her, much like what would happen if the Tardis transported you to that spot and left you there. Ruby as an old lady had a perception filter; the Tardis has a perception filter. Blah, blah, it’s not great evidence but there’s a little there. The Tardis, when in a body, said she chose the Doctor. There’s definitely not enough to go on yet, but it would be a pretty fun way to explore the birth of the Tardis; a little bit of magic in the universe mixed with a bootstrap paradox. The Tardis creates itself. It might be having issues because it’s carrying itself inside when Ruby travels.
No that's not correct some Doctors have referred to themselves as number. Here are the quotes 1. The First Doctor: As it happens I am the Doctor. The original you might say (The Five Doctors) 2. The Seventh Doctor: It doesn't bode well for my seventh persona (Time and the Rani) 3. The Eighth Doctor: (narrating) In all my travels through space and time nearing the end of my seventh life referring to the dying Seventh Doctor (The TV Movie) 4. The Fifth Doctor: I have 13 lives I already had four times (Mawdryn Undead) 5. A Timelord reference to the Doctor's and 2nd and 3rd (The Three Doctors) 6. The Eleventh Doctor referring to himself as "Eleven" (The Lodger) 7. The Doctor referring to the Tenth Doctor ad number ten: Well number 10 once regenerated twice I had vanity issues at the time. 8. In one of the Big Finish audio dramas the Doctor told Susan he was in his Eighth incarnation. Steven Moffat who is one of my least favourite showrunners has really screwed up the numbers since the War Doctor was created which I still think to this day retconning in a Doctor was a very stupid and most convoluted things to do and I wish they would erase the War and Fugitive Doctors out of existence. The Timeless Child is a lie by the Master end of story.
Enjoying this series more each episode. I'm sure after finale and all make sense filling in the jigsaw. I think this will be looked at 1 of the best series fr 2005. Only issue as we all agree. Just now 2 episodes left. Just when full interested. Long wait till Xmas. #bringback13episodes
Re: Doctor numbering. It's not necessarily an in-universe thing but it also kind of is. 12 regenerations.....you know....like the hours on a clock......Time Lords. It fit perfectly. You can argue "oh Gallifrey has a different scale of time per day" but the idea of each Time Lord getting a max of 12 regenerations after their first incarnation.....it just makes sense. War was easy to accept because it just shifted the numbering by 1 while still respecting and not affecting the original Classic Who numbering. Timeless Child went way further and just obliterated the numbering for the entire show, which made it much more difficult to swallow and much more frustrating in general, and that's not to mention how the concept kind of turns the Doctor into a chosen-one as opposed to a rebel Time Lord.
Given the unpleasant terms on which Christopher Eccleston left the show, Russell T Davies was playing a dangerous game by canonising an alternate 9th Doctor
I'm glad you picked up on the 6 month time jump. It almost feels like we've missed something. If we're rapping up Ruby's story now it feels a bit rushed. I've enjoyed the new season. Looking forward to the next 2 episodes. It looks like it's going to be epic.
Probably already said, however the Doctor does reference the number of regenerations he has (left) based on the original 12 allowed within the TV series.
I just recently rewatched 12's final three episodes. In Twice Upon a Time he explicitly referred to the Hartnell regeneration as the first time it happened. Then we can confirm the number of regenerations based on the need for him to get a new cycle of regenerations in 11's last episode. So while it's now canon that the are pre-Doctor versions of this character that they don't remember, I think the established numbering should be considered confirmed canon, with the caveat that 11 is the 11th Doctor, 12th incarnation (due to War Doctor), and 13th regeneration (due to 10 regenerating into himself). Edit: If RTD is going to sort out the Timeless Child story thread (which is really should) maybe we can hope for an episode where we see the regeneration INTO Hartnell/Bradley. I'd love to see more of him as The Doctor!
Yeah it would have sense to have someone who's already established like Ruth, and actually embed her more into the storyline. I need to brush up on Morbius, haven't watched it in years but it seems to be coming up a lot at the moment and seems like it could be relevant!
My take on the Timeless Child revelation is that Hartnell’s Doctor was the incarnation who chose to steal the TARDIS and leave Gallifrey, and it was when that decision was made that the Doctor became the Doctor. The Fugitive Doctor fits in between 2 and 3 (has to be post-Hartnell because her TARDIS was a police box). The Shalke Doctor could fit before the Fugitive Doctor?
Something I noticed about Rouge is he's sent to another dimension and told The Doctor to find (and there for is waiting for The Doctor) What if he's like River getting referenced/meeting The Doctor out of order, and he's actually the big bad, The One Who Waits... an interdimensional being out for The Doctor. And that plot point will be the focus of season 2
To me, "She's my best friend" meant "She's *not* my girlfriend, so we're OK to have that sort of relationship."
CLARA: But you don't die. You change. You pop right back up with a new face.
DOCTOR: No, not for ever. I can change twelve times. Thirteen versions of me. Thirteen silly Doctors.
CLARA: Okay, so you're number eleven, so
DOCTOR: Ha. Are we forgetting Captain Grumpy, eh? I didn't call myself the Doctor during the Time War, but it was still a regeneration.
CLARA: Okay, so you're number twelve.
DOCTOR: Well, number ten once regenerated and kept the same face. I had vanity issues at the time. Twelve regenerations, Clara. I can't ever do it again. This is where I end up. This face, this version of me. We saw this planet in the future, remember? All those graves, one of them mine.
The 11th doctor clearly say David was number 10
So he numbering him self in some order
Yup! Came here to say this! And he also referred to himself as "eleventh" in The Lodger, iirc. Even if the other Doctors don't refer to their incarnations with numbers, Eleven definitely did.
Grant is the Great intelligenz. The Show is dead
I'd say that was counting rather than naming... It's just that the counting had to start with our numbering to reduce confusion.
Doctor had been a Scientific Advisor for UNIT for a long time and knows all their paperwork - in "The 3 Doctors" the Brigadier learns that "his 2 Doctors" have a predecessor in the William Hartnell version. AND he had to whitness 3rd turning into 4th "Oh well, here we go again!" - Because of all the memory wipes on the 50th anniversary, UNIT never really noticed the War Doctor and the 10.2 version of a "half regeneration" while loading up the hand with enough energy to develop into a full person, happened inside the TARDIS with noone left to tell: Donna forgot, Rose was returned to the other universe and Captain Jack left Earth soon after (he can keep any secret, if necessary)...
The 14th Doctor had to set up this meeting with his weelchair collegue, just to inform UNIT that he is someone NEW and not an aged verson of 10th - don't keep secrets from me, I know all the stuff - I was even there, two hours ago! The Master had noone to keep track of his regenerations and is quite unsure who he was at any given point in his timeline. Being dead for some time or incarcerated inside something else, does not help your mental health eighter...
The Doctor obviously keeps count, since knowing when you were going to run out of lives was kinda important. XD
No one has yet referred to this as the 'Angry Birds' episode.
Hahaha
Well done...!
Slight correction Ellie: the 11th Doctor actually did refer to himself as "11th". He did it in The Lodger, AND he knew the 11th Door in The God Complex was for him, so for a time, he did follow along too.
And when all the doctors came together to save gallifrey.. even the time Lords say all 13..
@@BrianMcallister-k6gbut that’s I suppose just because of an amount of TARDISes in atmosphere. If there have been 170 doctors general might’ve said: “ALL 170!”
@kranitoko what you said, and the fact that 11 once said, "Well 10 regenerated twice and kept the same face."
@@BrianMcallister-k6g but then again the "all thirteen" line was an officer correcting the general when he said "all twelve", so I don't think we can take it as anything more than him pointing out there's another one.
I wish we could have some more of that creepiness when they enter the ballroom,and all the dummies laughing, stops and turn the heads following the gang as they walk thru!!BY THE GODS I LOVE THAT CREEPY WHO STUFF!!😂
Whats dude say?Gottle a Gill!! GOTTLE A GILL!!🤣😂🤪✌️🍻
19:24 I’d heard someone else say The Doctor declares Ruby as his best friend to signal his availability to Rogue, and that made sense to me. Like he’s letting Rogue know, “Oh, that girl I’m with? I’m not WITH her with her, she’s just my best friend.”
Yeah agree. And in fairness, saying "she's just my friend" would feel really diminishing to us, so of the two "best friend" is the better phrase. I also found it jarring at first, but on reflection it's fine.
Agreed. I have said this more than a few times about my female besties :) x
i think it'll grow to be fitting, they just really need to hammer in these 2's relationship more, boom did it a little bit but then 73 yards, dot n bubble, and this most recent episode have given us practically nothing for their relationship
Richard Grant also played the Great Intelligence, and in one of his appearances he used “Intelligent Snow” which has a tied motif to Ruby Sunday who snows when she’s in danger or emotionally vulnerable
It would be brilliant if the Shalka Doctor is an addition created by the Great Intelligence when it bumped into the Doctors timeline. Who knows, maybe it hijacked the War Doctor's body as the Master did with Thirteen, until the process was reversed and we got Eccleston instead after a proper regeneration.
When Thirteen got her body back, she didn't remember what the Master did while in her body... So maybe the Shalka Doctor is just ignored or forgotten by the Doctor.
What I’m liking is that the Doctor has gone through therapy, annnnnd is still going through rehab. Anytime Ruby has been dead/in danger, or the idiots on finetime refused to be saved, he freezes. It’s almost as though he’s healed from all his trauma, but still gets PTSD triggers.
I think it's clear now he definitely didn't go through therapy. What we saw was what we got. 14 split into 14 and 15, 14 stayed to actually heal and 15 just moved forward like always. No loop, 15 is still as damaged as always.
@@lostmonkeyAs they say, Rule 1: the doctor lies.
@@lostmonkey He specifically said that 14 was doing the therapy and 15 had benefited it because they were doing everything out of order. wibbly wobbly timey whimey
@@eshbena he very much did not say that although a lot of people wanted to hear it.
@@lostmonkeyyes he did the line is “I’m fine because you fix yourself. We’re timelords. We’re doing rehab out of order.”
Jack is openly attracted to everyone and anyone, we only see rogue attracted to the doctor. One is just horny the other is a gay man. I really hope this is just a new character not a new face of Jack or River.
episode was g@y asf tho
i agree , hands off jack
@@davie941yeah! Jack off hands!
Wait..
can't be Captain Jack because isn't he gonna be the Face of Boe?
also I think it's been firmly established that River lived her life backwards, where her DEATH was the START of the Doctor meeting her for the first time.
.... unless of course this is where the Grand Moff whispers to RTD to bring River back this way so her can work on something in the next seasons 😅👀
@@steelsheen River's arc could only reasonably be extended by 1. Showing more of her childhood before she met the Ponds (which would require a convincing child actress, I doubt they would go that route) or 2. Alex Kingston returning as a database projection, like she did at Trenzalore (which wouldn't make sense because she shouldn't age as she's essentially sophisticated computer programming). I love River but I think it's time to let her rest.
Doesn't Matt Smith essentially number the Doctors in 'The Name of the Doctor' when he explains to Clara that he's run out of regenerations?
Bingo, indeed he does
Yeah did they forget that there was a whole long plot about how Clara negotiated with the Time Lords to get the Doctor more regenerations, when his allotment was supposedly up?
Yup and the only time he verbally says it too!they have shown other faces/incarnations,but actually saying what position he is,yes 11is the only 1..😁✌️🍻
The 12 since Hartnell still may not have been the first incarnations/cycle of regenerations. If the timelords can arbitrarily add to generations who’s to say it hasn’t happened before.
Smith's Doctor numbers the ones he remembers, and still believes he has a limit, because at that time(no pun intended) he didn't know about the timeless child shenanigans, because of the memory wipe from the Time Lords.
I feel like Rassilon and the Time Lords knew he would regenerate regardless and pulled out the jumper cables to trigger the regeneration, so he wouldnt suspect anything. The Doctor then interprets this as them giving him a "whole new regeneration cycle"
William Hartnell once said as the Doctor, "I am the original".
The original you might say
Very true. But, it does not stop the splintering after him. Who is the original Curator?
The original curator has to been a doctor who has regenerated many times cause he just hints to things and makes jokes about old faces returning to matt smiths 11ths doctor so he has to have lived for a very long time. @@SWHEWAEW
I know
Well, yes he did say "the original you might say" but he didn't say it as in "I am the first face of the doctor" but instead meant it as "I'm the Doctor the word doctor is based on"
I think as long as the romance isn't tredding the same ground as before, then I'm open to it for the Doc.
We've had a wife with River, we've had unrequited companion love with Martha, danger enduced temporary feelings with Amy, and we've had a companion romance with Rose, so if Rogue ends up a longterm longdistance boyfriend that eventually ends in mutual breakup (preferably not tragic death!) I'd be down for exploring this romance angle for the Doctor!
Russel Davies said that Ruth Madeley had a scheduling conflict which is why she isn't in the finale. They liked Lenny Rush in Space Babies and brought him back when Ruth wasn't available. The character of Shirley will be back in the next series.
It makes sense that an organisation like UNIT would have multiple scientific advisors, with varying specialities, so I have no issue with the idea that Shirley was off on assignment somewhere when whatever happens in the finale started happening.
I like to imagine Shirley was either on some other assignment or on holiday
I think the way that 'find me' scene played out, it was unilateral. Basically both knew that there are countless dimensions and that it's next to impossible to find someone there but then rogue still said 'find me' and pushed the button. I don't think the doctor even had the time to promise this, so it would be a stretch for rogue to actually wait and expect to be found
While I agree I also think that bc of the intense passion we saw between the 2 I think the doctor will still look for him but finds him by accident in a way ykwim?
I have had a head canon theory since the Great Intelligence episode. When he walks into the time stream, he is everywhere in the Doctors timeline. Who is to say he stole the Doctors identity and his Tardis and pretended to be him. As the Shalka Doc was canon briefly... that is where we get a REG 9th... BUT as soon as Clara steps in reverses all of that and takes the Shalka/REG out of canon. Briefly he was the Doc and had his two adventures and then not.
Has RTD put it back in due to the Toymakers 'Jigsaw' comment?
Love it! Gonna use that myself
There was also the save gallifrey scene in day of the doctor when capaldi pops up pre-regeneration and says "all 13".
Yes capaldi pops up. But the gallifreyan general says "all 13" because he saw a 13th face popping up.
Idk, I felt Rogue was closest to Madame de Pompadour and the episode had similar vibes to Girl in the Fireplace (the non-Moffat TM elements). The Doctor was instantly taken with them the course of an episode, and then lost them in the end after offering to take them away with him.
I think this episode may of used piano music from the Girl in the Fireplace.
I literally haven't been able to fault an episode in this series (Except Space Babies, sorry, that one is being repressed). But I just realised something that I really miss...
I miss those moments in the Tardis at the beginning and end of each episode, the warm up to the adventure to come, the cooldown at the end - The whirling and roaring of the Tardis and the excitement of the companion to open those doors. The banter and laughing between the Doctor and Companion. I love this season, but I just realised how wonderful those little moments were.
Anyone else noticing how many episodes this season has had a scene where the Doctor sings?
And cries
Yes, definitely
But, not gonna lie
Judging by the fact that, Toymaker and Maestro have been messing with the laws of the universe, maybe the singing is part of the things they added
He will definitely be known as the dancing doctor. I suppose he's also the singing doctor. I'm sure this is something that Gatwa was happy to include as part of his character.
True
Yeah it's a lot of fun! This Doctor is so full of life!
Welcome back Ellie
welcome back ELLIE! episode was g@y asf tho
@@THISISNOTREAL33 Hell yeah it was! 🥳
@@elliesteele2027🥱🤡
When they introduced the War Doctor however, 11 does mention that he's one of his 13 regenerations so it still fit neatly into the idea of the Doctor being limited to so many faces. And then of course immediately after he says that, the Time Lords give him more regenerations so that clearly opened the door to maybe he had more before. It works.
My issue with TTC is not that there were more doctors before Hartnell, it's that it made the doctor more special than they needed to be. I personally fancy the idea of the Doctor just being another Time Lord who happened to step up when the call was made. I'm also okay with the idea of the Other from the extended universe where there was a progenitor of the society that just got reincarnated as the Doctor. But then to do what they did with TTC and give the Doctor this even more fantastical origin and basically essentially just give him infinite incarnations that his entire planet abused, tortured, brainwashed, and took advantage of for millennia.... I just don't gel with that. I don't think it's complicated to grasp, but I think it just messes with the lore too much and also went in a completely different direction from where they were going with the 12th's relationship with Gallifrey. I also don't like how they didn't really go further with the Master's beef over it. The Master got upset that he wasn't special and killed Gallifrey as a result, but I wish they spent more time with the two characters actually sussing out their relationship and how this new information changes it rather than the Master just throwing a temper tantrum well the Doctor stood in shock completely useless for the rest of the episode.
Also Flux completely ruined whatever momentum they could have built up by just muddying that origin story even further. I had no idea what was going on and they don't explain it and I don't like it.
Agreed. I thought the Doctor was plenty "special"
as he was. I do not like those changes to the lore.
Something I didn't have on my 2024 bingo card was having Jonathan Groff in Doctor Who
right?? 😁 I was shocked 🤯 but pleasantly so because he's such an excellent actor.
I want some more behind the scenes stories specially with makeup and wardrobe because there are hilarious stories from other works he's done about his over zealous sweat pores 😅😅😅
The Doctor was RIVER’S conpanion in Husbands of River Song
"Sorry. I've always wanted to see that done properly."
She did hear that, but it didn’t register.
The way the Doctor/Ruby relationship went from meeting to friends for 6 months so quickly again makes me think of the way time jumped for Donna in The Library. I still wouldn’t be surprised if this whole season will be some sort of simulated reality with River or Doctor Moon being the one who waits.
I like that idea but I highly doubt it will be previous characters from a Moffat story. I think more likely a new powerful being, but what do I know 🤷🏽♂️ only time will tell
In the Five Doctors, when the 1st Doctor meets the Fifth, he enquires “Regeneration?” (As the process is still in his personal future and something he has not yet experienced) and the Fifth Doctor acknowledges this and says “fourth!” And the first Doctor says “Goodness me, so there are 5 of me around!”. Incidentally, I’ve actually seen some fans criticize this statement and say “but the fourth Doctor was Tom Baker!” yes, dense creatures, but it was the THIRD Regeneration, the actual process, that led to the Fourth Doctor, just as the fourth regeneration was fourth Doctor turning into the Fifth Doctor. So even that shows the Doctors referred to themselves on some level as the fifth incarnation of the first Doctor (who has been thru four regenerations, etc). So however RetconFans want to play it, the Doctor definitely thought he began with the 1st Doctor/WIlliam Hartnell/Richard Hurndall/etc etc etc. It may have been something that the earlier production teams had played loose with such as the faces in “Brain of Morbius” but by the Deadly Assassin the Regeneration Limit has been set at a hard 12 (12 regenerations for 13 Doctors or 13 different incarnations of the TimeLords at that time, as confusing as regular language is to describe this all! :-) And by The Five Doctors they certainly referred to the Doctors as First Doctor, second Doctor, etc. Still not a fan of the Timeless Child, tho it may be more the way it was portrayed onscreen than the base idea itself. But the inclusion of the Richard Grant Doctor is just ludicrous and confusing and ultimately pointless just as things were starting to calm down. It’s like even RTD is saying screw history, we can throw in any rando we want, and we dont feel any obligation to explain it to fans or give any background or reason for it. And it further seems they simply write off anyone who finds this fluid history diconcerting as taking it all “too seriously” and that we should lighten up, yet if it’s something they find upsetting then how can fans be so lax in their fandom and devotion to Who? It’s driving me a bit crazy atm and turning Who on its head. Or someone’s head, because who can be sure whose heads are even Who’s at this point! :-)
Hartnel refered to himself as the first dr. “The original you might say”
The Eleventh Doctor said he was the 12th in the cycle,
And the “Tenth had vanity issues”
Also the Twelth Doctor said “NO SIR, ALL 13!”
The fifth doctor said he had regenerated four times.
@@yusufgazi7don't say things you have no clue about. Capaldi never said "all 13" it was the gallifreyan general who said that because he saw 13 different faces. While Matt Smith acknowledged at his last day that he technically is 13.
It was a fun episode, and yes, I'd also call it Classic New Who. There was one scene where Indira blinked, and although it was vertical (as we do blink) vs horizontal, which could only be achieved via cgi, the way she did it was *really* bird-like. Amazing!
This was a quick turn around for the spoiler discussion!!! Thanks for the content
episode was g@y asf tho
On the numbering:
Pre-Timeless Children, the Doctor seemed to genuinely believe in the numbering system, having no knowledge of the previous incarnations eg. Fugitive. They WERE aware of War, but actively chose to exclude War from the count because they felt he was "not the Doctor". We hear 11 refer to himself as the Eleventh mutliple times, as well as 10 as "10" once, so at this time they still believed in those numbers.
As for the Shalka Doctor... We never saw what face War finished regenerating into on screen. It's possible there were more regenerations in between War and 9, which the Doctor ALSO chose not to count as numbered Doctors for whatever reason, or it's possible the memory of those faces could've been wiped from the Doctor somehow.
Or it's possible that the Toymaker HAS re-written the Doctor's personal timeline, adding in Shalka or any other additional incarnations, anywhere in the list he feels like.
Ultimately... The time has long passed for us to stop caring about numbering, or even what order these faces occured in. The Doctor has had a massive number of faces, mostly off-screen and the numbers are just lingering nicknames based on now defunct information.
One great thing about being an Aussie is midnight = 9am for me, so it's a lovely Saturday morning treat.
**Gets Painted Into A Corner**
Most People: Ugh, this is impossible
RTD: OOH, PAINT!
In-universe the numbering did matter, because of the limited number of regenerations, which came up several times.
Nevermind when the Time Lords themselves called out "all THIRTEEN Doctors!" with Capaldi's first appearance on the show. Emphasis on the word "all."
"Some of the faces look weirder than others"... I think that's because they didn't have the actor to pose and had to pull a still where they're looking in the right direction, correct profile... but maybe was in mid conversation, or just in a completely different mood of the scene. Never take a picture while talking.
I feel like when they entered Rogues ship and the doctor said how dirty it was, he immediately asked who he'd lost. Showing us what it would look like if the doctor himself traveled alone
Well, did you see 9's TARDIS in the start? XD
Matt Smith absolutely called himself the eleventh in The Lodger after the head-bonk info dump, and he also (IIRC) had a football kit with an 11 as a little cutesy hat-tip.
The only time I can remember where the numbering system is mentioned in canon was in the Five Doctors, where 'one' says to 'five' "So there are five of me now."
Matt Smith had a whole convo about Tenant being the 10th doctor.
One to five would then know there is at least five drs if he met five
The 5th Doctor describes himself to the First Doctor as being the fourth regeneration and then the First Doctor cheerfully reacts with the "So there are five of me now" :-)
I’d love to see Jo come back 1 day she was such a good doctor
Those of us who have not watched Bridgerton, have it seems seen or heard or read enough Austen etc to be able to follow the story quite well. I agree that Rogue has a lot of "Captain Jack" vibes.
My theory: doctor has been in some sort of dream/story state and the reason so many characters are reminiscent of others is because of this. Rogue - jack, Susan twist - Clara/Me, Mrs. Flood speech patterns remind me of Tallulah (daleks take manhattan), h. Arpenger/ she is a herold of mad max/ mad max is the worst prime minister ever - harold Saxon. almost dream changed versions. The storylines have reminded me of dream memories of different genres or stories. The labyrinth, a musical, scary, historical romance… like changing channels or reading books.
Plus the whole season starts “once upon a time…” in the church on ruby road. And ruby Sunday, cherry Sunday they are story book names… meeting another person named Monday?
Good Theory ..... I have seen one that I really like .... That the Doctor is stuck inside in a TV Show and knows it .... Hence the number of fourth wall breaks and his sonic looking like a remote. There is a video about it that also points out that the Doctor hears the incidental music at one point and references it and its what lets him know Ruby is in danger.
Yea I’ve been thinking for a very long time that they aren’t always in reality. It’s been reminding me of like story books kinda like when the doctor went into the pandorica and the Roman’s/ Pandora’s box was based on Amy’s favorite stories as a kid. But it might tie into Ruby because the maestro says she has the same power that “he” does. Or something like that. So maybe she can alter reality somehow or induce dream states. The movement in the episodes don’t always make sense and we hardly ever see the tardis take off or land in any of the episodes, they’re just there suddenly. When we do see the tardis moving it’s inconsistent like either flying like a space ship or fading in and out like normal but it’s not the same every time. And there’s tons of references to “playing games” and magic tricks throughout the whole season.
The thing is we only assume the Shalka Doctor is an alternative 9th Doctor because of when Scream of the Shalka came out (he would have been 9th assuming he was after Paul McGann) but now we have whole acres of timeline real estate up for grabs he could be anywhere...
And given that someone is Clearly giving the Shalka Doctor orders I am going to suggest he is a Division Doctor. Sure the Tardis is a police box but so is the Fugitive Doctor's and sure you have the robot-master but I am sure timey-wimey shenanigans can explain that.
That shot of Jodie. I do miss her. Ncuti is great btw. I wanted more of Jodie (episodes )during her time I hope she comes back in a future episode or something.
I think the "drama" the birds were going to be attracted to would be war and they'd get the humans to kill each other. I'm fairly sure they said that.
Every episode we get keeps making me think that the season finale will reveal that they are within a TV show (in universe). The way they mentioned plot twist this episode drove that further
Rogue (the character) is what you get when you ask someone to draw Captain Jack from memory. I loved him but it's a very funny way to describe him.
I dont like it when people say "the doctor is/isnt this" re; romance in this case but thats a general rule
We all know every doctor has their own personalities and with Ncuti being as naturally flirty as he is, it is a required component but i also wouldnt buy him being flirty with everyone. He gives the vibe of someone who is flirty but only to one person he really likes
Whereas Matt Smiths portrayal felt so naturally sexless and asexual.
I think its all down to the actors own strengths and weaknesses
The way I see it is that Richard E. Grant's regeneration is just another example of the Toymaker making a jigsaw out of the Doctor's history. I wouldn't be surprised if this is just the beginning and Russell winds up making other non-canon and/or contradictory things canon.
I think we have to say that The Toymaker's line "I made a jigsaw out of your life" can explain a lot of this. That could explain both the Timeless Child Jo Martin Doctor AND the Richard Grant Shalka Doctor suddenly appearing when they never appeared in similar scenes before. I must confess, being a HUGE Peter Cushing fan, even though his Doctor Who can only be an "alternate universe" Doctor, I still would have squealed like a tiny Japanese schoolgirl if they had shown that Doctor with the others.
The numbering surely begins in 'The Three Doctors'. Pretty sure the Chancellor or President or whoever it is starts talking about them like that. It never used to be such a thing because there were fewer of them. And the past was pretty much done and dusted, rather than constantly available.
I look at statements like "all 11 of them" as technically true at the time, but because things are timey-wimey, could have retroactively changed for there to be more. We now have three un-numbered Doctors plus a reused face with two numbers, so we've got to be flexible in our thinking.
The Doctor refers to Sarah Jane Smith in the episode “Seeds Of Doom” as his “best friend”, but in a later season refers to a companion as his “second best friend”. I wish I could remember the episode but I can’t at the moment but it stood out to me that when he referred to someone as his “second best friend “ he was referring to Sarah Jane as the first.
Richard Grant is also the Great Intelligence, who jumped into the Doctors timeline. Maybe he wasn't the ninth but that got rewritten after Name of the Doctor? Or maybe he was the ninth doctor but of a different cycle as granted in the Time of the Doctor or from the Timeless Child?
I think the 'six months passing' thing is due to episode re-ordering? There's been talk that this should have been the episode after Space Babies, and The Devil's Chord was moved from here to tie in with Eurovision and a strong character on that first double bill. That would also explain why Ruby only mentioned their first trip when she tries to convince the Doctor that she's really Ruby.
Makes sense too given that Ruby also nearly died in “Boom”
Confirmed, there has been no re-ordering. In fact, the episodes only make sense in their aired order.
It's winter again by the time of 47 yards as Susan Twist is dressed for winter hiking.
@@EwanDavidson-xs5fg To be honest, that's often the clothing required for a British spring/summer!
About the holographic faces, what you both seemed to not have caught: it very much seemed to me that Rogue recognized the 10th Doctor's face.
Theory: The sound in the trailer for “The Legend of Ruby Sunday” where Mel says, “Doctor, there’s something wrong” and Kate says, “Whatever it is, here it comes…” is the same sound the TARDIS made when the Doctor plugs the transport device in and Rogue asks what that was, to which the Doctor replies, “Nothing… indigestion. She gets upset by bounty hunters….”. So, perhaps S TRIAD Technology really is derived from TARDIS technology… and the TARDIS is none too happy about it.
Ruth still about, saw her literally in town filming a scene with doctor and Ruby for S2 😊
I look at the Doctor telling Rogue Ruby is his best friend as him letting Rogue know he showed up to the dance with her but was not *with her. Contextually, that's how it played, in my opinion.
12:50
But the whole point of the Eleventh Doctor's regeneration was the fact he was at the end of the cycle
He even said he was the Eleventh and that the "Tenth had vanity issues"
"NO SIR, ALL THIRTEEN"
Now you've done it! I'm hearing Rogue singing "Reindeer are better than people." 😅😂
I only managed to get round to watching the episode today and I was blown away! They captured so much of what reminded me of a ‘classic episode’ (I told me friend it took me back to the Tennant era).
This episode played with my emotions in the best way and I really hope Rogue returns in season 2 (based on his last line, I’m going to assume this to be the case). Definitely my number one episode so far.
episode was g@y asf tho
Would be cool if it was a thread through our one or two seasons, then maybe season 3 he's the companion.
@@Deliverance253 episode was g@y asf tho
@@Deliverance253would be even cooler if Disney didn’t buy it and ruined it. Show died the day capladi left
@@THISISNOTREAL33 agreed this romance is terrible totally ruined the doctor
what if Richard E Grant as the doctor is a red herring and the great intelligence is making a return???? The snow would make sense and could be controlling Susan Twist's character. Both from the classic era and NewWho
i don’t think that’s what’s going on but that would be SO genius
The new memory tardis episode could be 15 giving backstory to ruby from all the past meetings with the great intelligence
U cracked it with the snow
😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮
But the TGI is a Moffat character not RTD
After watching this episode I went back and watched Human Nature/The Family Of blood. There are some incredibly interesting comparrisons to be made, I will let you find them for yourself, but it almost feels like to make Rouge they (at least in part) took elements from Family Of blood (Doctor becoming human via a magic watch excluded) and repurposed them.
The fate of the Angry Birds is so close to the fate of the Family of Blood... Plus Rogue's cloaked ship was like theirs. Unless you want to remember the cloaked Klingon ship parked in San Francisco in Star Trek The Voyage Home. Definite echoes.
I know he is there because of Shalka but I think it could be interesting if Richard E Grant's face has something to do with the great intelligence jumping into the doctor's time stream. It would be cool if Richard E Grant came back to play the Valyard (or just the great intelligence again.)
I think the reason why we feel all of this is too fast and we missed a lot with the characters is because a Season is only 8 episodes. We just got episode 6 which wouldn't even be half of the previous runs at total 13 episodes each season
“You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain” 😂😂 25:08
this is unsourced, i saw it on reddit, but reportedly, richard e. grant's inclusion was an easter egg put there by the vfx artists and the specific artist who signed off on it hadn't even heard of scream of the shalka, that's the very handsome doctor from curse of fatal death
Ellie, yay welcome back. Missed you. Hope you enjoyed a fantastic holiday
Rogue. So so good.
I lost my mind hearing "Can't get you out of my head"
& "Poker Face"
I'm wondering, maybe there is more to this bi-regeneration that there seems to be. Maybe we might revisit some old friends?
There's been several In-Universe references to the Numbers of The Doctor. Both subtle and not to subtle. There's a mention in Journey's End, as other comments have pointed out, “Number ten once regenerated and kept the same face. I had vanity issues at the time.” There's "All 13" in the 50th Anniversary special (Slight reach there, though). There's the cheeky nod Clara gives in The Bells of St. John, where we see Artie reading a book. "Summer Falls," by Amelia Williams (which we know is an Amy Pond reference). He tells her he's on chapter 10 (meaning, the 10th doctors story). She says that "eleven is the best... you'll cry your eyes out." A clear reference to the 11th Doctor, and.. well, everything he went through before meeting Clara... which results in that book existing.
Re: Rogue. Loved it, tbh. Big improvement over dot and bubble.
Re: panic about gay Doctor, kissing another man. On BBC.
I think the new management are trying to change the Doctor into a more normal guy: lonely, looking for more than hanging around with dotty friends he has to babysit. He's growing up! Call it "About a Time Traveler" but without the good luck to cast Hugh Grant.
For 60 years we assumed he was a sex-less humanish alien who took an interest in travelling with his pet humans. Think of him as a British school instructor without the home life because fate seems to have condemned him to be on never-ending school outings. He doesn't sleep apparently, or have a dining area, or any hobbies. Or a library or a bathroom. To say he is a bit thin in representation at this point is an understatement.
This is a fairly limited palette to work with -- barely above a travel show, certainly not Harry Potter level. But they made it into an adventure show thanks to campy villains and the occasional thoughtful moment -- pretty impressive. Throw in the regeneration gimmick -- absolute genius if you want to replace your star when it is convenient -- and you have the makings of a sustainable, albeit gimmicky show. Would Who have done as well over the years if he fell in love and showed it more explicitly? I don't know. But we are about to find out. It's worth remembering that the Doctor did have River Song in his life. It's just that it wasn't presented very explicitly. A "sort of wife" is how Davies referred to her, or was it Moffat who said this, can't remember -- but certainly not like any wife I've ever had (I was lucky enough to have had 2, both pretty impressive -- not the stuff of vague memories I can tell you.) And of course the River relationship was heterosexual, so not controversial to many.
I think homophobia and change in the show in general are the issue here for some of the traditional viewers of the show. And I think the BBC/and now Disney? are having a hard time figuring out whether Who is supposed to be for children. If BBC wants the show to remain British and be as sustainable as it has been, it will have to think about some of these issues. Regardless, I'm a long-time fan -- a man in my late 60s -- and not wilting in the face of a gay Doctor who happens to be able to look okay dancing. And who seems able to appreciate another man looking good in a jacket. It's kind of fun, actually.
The numbering does matter though, just like there was the War doctor during the time war, its more of a mental state id say.
On the timeless child, i think the doctor is either the se being as the toymaker but he is the physical embodiment of time in the main universe, somehow banished as a child. The "Lord Temporal" line said by maestro could easliy have been what they were called eons ago. It also works that the galifreyans would abuse the power of the doctor for themselves. The One Who Waits, is prolly gonna be revieled in season 2 or 3, would be a waste otherwise. They would destroy earth by cosplaying as politicians or royalty or something along those lines, leading to war everywhere, most likely.
Yeaaahhh, about that
@ 13:00. Capaldi actually announces the numbers total. (Known) by adding himself to the group.
When?
Never heard him do that.
First time his eyes popped up the gallifreyan general was saying "all 12 of them" and then his guy left to him (not the doctor) says "no sir all 13".
So no capaldi never announced the number.
The only one who actually said the number was 5. He said he regenerated 4 times. And then smith who acknowledges that he is on his last life and he technically is 13. Because of war doctor and metacrisis.
Only now it gets worried with fugitive and Grant's
I think we can easyly solve the lineage (since christopher eccelston did appear as one of the faces) to say that Richard E. Grant could be a face from his time on the division or even the one after the fugitive doctor, since we don't know where to put Fugitive before Hartnell. I always thought that maybe the Jo Martin Doctor was the first to call herself the doctor after she split from the division. Grant could be a face after or before her... And still have the adventures as we know it. It would be the story we know with slight changes, like Russel did with the Star Beast. Maybe he was the real 9th doctor after the timeless child became the doctor...
I don't know if any one has mentioned this before but the music playing whilst the Doctor and Rogue dance is by the legendary Grace Jones. It's called "I've seen that face before".
Welcome back, Ellie, hope you had an amazing birthday break. I just watched the making of this episode, and when they talk of the interior or of Rogue's ship, they talk about the, 'Assarian' (spelling via the subtitles) ship ! Personally, I get the strange feeling that given that Rogue could actually be a different incarnation of The Doctor. My basis for this theory are : they instantly understand each other's 'traveler saving the universe' lifestyle, the hexagonal control section of a time traveling ship that can disguise itself. It would actually be very on-brand for RTD that the one person The Doctor relates to and falls for is actually another incarnation of himself ! Anyone else think that could be the case ? :)
I noticed the similarities between the ships/sheds, but I think Rogue's console was octagonal. My eyesight is rubbish, though, so I could be wrong! The Master and Missy hit it off back in the day, and I found that icky. Personally I hope that the Doctor wasn't snogging himself! However, Rogue could be a Time Lord, or someone from wherever the Timeless Child came from.
@@Michelle-cz3kz I was just wondering if Rogue maybe went through a dimensional porthole, landed on some planet, let's say... Gallifrey, but did not survive the fall and regenerated into The Timeless Child .... literally a child ? BTW... just for info, I just watched the 'making of' the episode and it referred to Rogue's ship as the ' Assarian ship' (spelling via the subtitles) ?!? :)
@@LeFouGallois You could be right: someone fell through that wormhole, after all. But I have hopes for the romance with Rogue so I hope he's not an earlier incarnation of the Doctor!
Also see River Song's cheat sheet (wallet of cards) of pictures of all incarnations of the Doctor she was aware of. It;s all up in the air now .. especially post Toymaker. I wouldn't be surprised to see more incarnations appear randomly in future.
My head cannon is all of the doctors that aren’t numbered (minus the war doctor) are pre Hartnel while the Doctor was apart of the division. Once the doctor got kicked out of division, the time lords locked there memories away/ put a limit on there regeneration to 12. This would make Clara begging the time lords for there help in giving the doctor a new batch of regenerations still meaningful and solve that plot hole
Lmao Ellie still messed up and said "Tardis HQ". Too excited!
This has to be my favourite episode yet on so many levels.
I May believe a connection could be with The Five Doctors, Triangle is a symbol of the Dark Tower, death zone, during the time when Timelords abuse the powers to be God, This has also shown The Master relieve of his Regenerations by the Time Council which can explain Doctor Many Faces, Rassilon was forced back in time by the 10th Doctor, Susan, Doctors Grand daughter had a bad ending as Doctor felt that Susan was Grown up and closed the tardis door locked leaving Susan behind, Susan Surname was the same name as the old Scrap yard name, so we don't know the real name, Susan did got called to fight the Time War against the Doctor Orders, Twist or Mrs Flood could be Leela as she was rescued by the Fourth Doctor before the Daleks taken control
THANKS for this!!!!!!! Interesting point about the six months!!! And The One Who Waits...hmm....
I, too, was not impressed with the baddies. The Daleks would take them out in five minutes :)
And yes, where's Ruth/"Shirley?" That was my fav..... !!!!
Rose looks like a UNIT intern!
The wait for Friday night at 7 p.m. EST continues!!!!
episode was g@y asf tho
12:54 welll "UMACKSTUALLY" in Time And The Rani. The Doctor does say that that is his 7th body but whatever lol
And on the note of the Seventh, whilst I agree that I don't particularly like the treating The Doctor as a god, there was a thing unnofficially dubbed "The Cartmel Master Plan" from the late 80s that the Timeless Child seems pretty compatible with. Just ofc the show was cancelled before it went anywhere definitive.
I feel that the Big Bad involving Susan Twist is Hecuba. As part of the Lost Stories collection, there was The Queen Of Time (Big Finish 2012), she battled the 2nd Doctor, Jamie & Zoe. She is the sister of the Toymaker and likes to also play games, but with time. She also has an association with sand & dust, as in the Sands Of Time. In the storyline, she sits outside the realms of the universe and time.. waiting for her time of revenge & also likes to use her Time Cube to manipulate past & future events for fun
100% agreed that the Doctor shouldn't be romantically involved with their companion, especially with so many being them teenagers when they meet the ancient Doctor. I'm also totally ok with the Doctor saying "I've had my romantic stage of life, and I'm ready to go back to just having friendships." I'm not personally a fan of the one-off romantic episodes, but love the River Song marriage because it was drawn out and had room to breathe, not rushed. Speaking of which, I feel like this new era is not giving River much respect. The Doctor spends a moment in episode 2 to talk about Susan (which he rarely does), but there were two moments here where he could have at least said her name or mention he had a wife - the "who did you lose" conversation and the moment with the ring (Twelve's the only one who wore a wedding ring, and it was in honor of River). In the novelization of the Giggle, in that final scene with Fifteen and Fourteen, Adric gets a paragraph. Sarah Jane gets a paragraph. Rose gets a paragraph. River gets her name drop and that's it. I don't know, after Eleven waiting to tell Clara about River until Clara met her, after Thirteen not telling Yaz about River until their time together was nearly over, and after Fourteen not even mentioning River to Donna (who's met River and would actually appreciate the information), I'm a little sick of the Doctor holding River and the memories of her so close to their chest.
Whittaker: we're just friends... and also I don't want to hear about your cancer.
Capaldi: I'm not your boyfriend.
Gatwa: I'm everybody's boyfriend!
The thing is that the Doctor never actually has had a romantic relationship with a companion. Rose and the Doctor never actually got romantic until the metacrisis. I did check on 4 and Romana, because I couldn't remember if they were married in the show (in addition to being married in real life), and it seems not, but there was apparently a series of tv commercials in which they got engaged! (In Australia, the PR1ME Computer ads in 1980.)
Russell has laid all the groundwork for the Shalka Doctor reintroduction (and he touches every script that crosses his desk, so he will have added this, as fun as it is to think Kate may have been responsible). So - The Toymaker, (a being who is able to manipulate matter with thought and to whom time and space is nothing but an illusion, lest we forget), told us in the Giggle that he had made a jigsaw out of the Doctor's past. RTD has stated in many interviews that the purpose of this was to create wiggle room in whatever this show counts as canon (ie nothing, but some fans insist that it must have it, so here is the get-out clause). In doing this, he has pulled Richard E Grant's unofficial 9th Doctor into the main continuity.
But it gets even better than that!
Tales From The TARDIS introduced the Memory TARDIS. Dialogue presented within those short pieces states out right that multiple timelines now exist - most notably from the 7th Doctor, who says that in some of those he regenerates, in others he doesn't. RTD has stated that the effects of the Bi-generation reverberated throughout the Doctor's entire timeline, meaning that every past Doctor both regenerated and also stayed the same.
But it gets even better than that!
If Grants alternative 9th Doctor can be pulled in, so can other alternatives, including the "Unbound" Doctor's from Big Finish. But BEST OF ALL Rowan Atkinson is now an official incarnation of the Doctor, which I think is borderline joygasmic. But even more even more than that, in The Curse of the Fatal Death, Atkinson's Doctor is shown to regenerate multiple times. One of those times is Richard E Grant. So thanks to the Toymaker messing with the Doctors past, entwining multiverses and mashing it all together, AND the process of Bi-generation, Grant's Shalka Doctor is now not just a stand alone Doctor, but a continuation of his Curse of the Fatal Death incarnation.
And people thought the Timeless Child retcon was confusing! I FECKING LOVE THE AUDACITY OF IT
Oh - and the Doctor HAS numbered himself a few times - notably the 5th (who openly states on screen that he is the fourth regeneration) and the 11th, more than once. But of course it's all irrelevant and everything depends on the showrunner/production team! The show has never really had anything resembling an official cannon, and long may that continue
The numbering system for Classic Who was established in Canon in the 5th Doctor serial Mawdryn Undead. But it conflicts with the 4th Doctor serial Brain of Morbius.
It was further solidified in The Time of The Doctor. He was at the end of his 12th regeneration.
If we accept as authoritative show runner and director commentary as to what something in their show meant, then we've known since the Tom Baker era that there were at least 5 pre-Hartnel incarnations.
So, the 5th Doctor specified that he had 8 regenerations remaining. And, because of Brain of Morbius, we know that he was at least the 10th incarnation, not the 5th.
That creates a problem until we later learn that the Timelords can grant additional regeneration cycles.
Therefore, even before Timeless Child, we could reasonably infer that The Doctor was on AT LEAST his second set of regenerations. Thus making Matt Smith the 25th Doctor - at the absolute youngest the character could possibly be.
And all of this is established, or can be reasonably inferred, before the conclusion of Matt Smith's run. And much of it before the conclusion of McCoy's era.
The flip side of that is we don't accept such statements from show runners and directors as definitive. In which case nothing that RTD has said about his episodes matters. It isn't Canon until it is explained on screen.
I love you guys. Not just the obvious two faces. ALL OF YOU. I would love to see a video in your voices about how many people The Doctor has killed, and why.
I really hope this is done better than I can explain it, but could the line about Ruby being the Doctors best friend link back to Ruby being a part of the Tardis (their real best friend)?
We know the Tardis isn’t well. We know this twist has something to do with the Tardis. We know the Tardis was born and is a living thing. We know that Ruby can bring not only snow, but also music from her birth. It’s almost as if she’s materializing her birth setting around the people near her, much like what would happen if the Tardis transported you to that spot and left you there. Ruby as an old lady had a perception filter; the Tardis has a perception filter. Blah, blah, it’s not great evidence but there’s a little there.
The Tardis, when in a body, said she chose the Doctor. There’s definitely not enough to go on yet, but it would be a pretty fun way to explore the birth of the Tardis; a little bit of magic in the universe mixed with a bootstrap paradox. The Tardis creates itself. It might be having issues because it’s carrying itself inside when Ruby travels.
No that's not correct some Doctors have referred to themselves as number.
Here are the quotes
1. The First Doctor: As it happens I am the Doctor. The original you might say (The Five Doctors)
2. The Seventh Doctor: It doesn't bode well for my seventh persona (Time and the Rani)
3. The Eighth Doctor: (narrating) In all my travels through space and time nearing the end of my seventh life referring to the dying Seventh Doctor (The TV Movie)
4. The Fifth Doctor: I have 13 lives I already had four times (Mawdryn Undead)
5. A Timelord reference to the Doctor's and 2nd and 3rd (The Three Doctors)
6. The Eleventh Doctor referring to himself as "Eleven" (The Lodger)
7. The Doctor referring to the Tenth Doctor ad number ten: Well number 10 once regenerated twice I had vanity issues at the time.
8. In one of the Big Finish audio dramas the Doctor told Susan he was in his Eighth incarnation.
Steven Moffat who is one of my least favourite showrunners has really screwed up the numbers since the War Doctor was created which I still think to this day retconning in a Doctor was a very stupid and most convoluted things to do and I wish they would erase the War and Fugitive Doctors out of existence.
The Timeless Child is a lie by the Master end of story.
Enjoying this series more each episode. I'm sure after finale and all make sense filling in the jigsaw. I think this will be looked at 1 of the best series fr 2005. Only issue as we all agree. Just now 2 episodes left. Just when full interested. Long wait till Xmas. #bringback13episodes
I need Joanna Lumley cameo as a past doctor so much.
Re: Doctor numbering.
It's not necessarily an in-universe thing but it also kind of is. 12 regenerations.....you know....like the hours on a clock......Time Lords. It fit perfectly. You can argue "oh Gallifrey has a different scale of time per day" but the idea of each Time Lord getting a max of 12 regenerations after their first incarnation.....it just makes sense.
War was easy to accept because it just shifted the numbering by 1 while still respecting and not affecting the original Classic Who numbering. Timeless Child went way further and just obliterated the numbering for the entire show, which made it much more difficult to swallow and much more frustrating in general, and that's not to mention how the concept kind of turns the Doctor into a chosen-one as opposed to a rebel Time Lord.
Given the unpleasant terms on which Christopher Eccleston left the show, Russell T Davies was playing a dangerous game by canonising an alternate 9th Doctor
I'm glad you picked up on the 6 month time jump. It almost feels like we've missed something. If we're rapping up Ruby's story now it feels a bit rushed. I've enjoyed the new season. Looking forward to the next 2 episodes. It looks like it's going to be epic.
I would wonder if, due to the Great Intelligence in Matt Smith era, maybe creates darkest aspects of the Doctor and therefore creates The Valyard?
I WANT TO SEE OSGOOD AGAIN
Probably already said, however the Doctor does reference the number of regenerations he has (left) based on the original 12 allowed within the TV series.
Did you discuss the mention from rogue about his new boss?
I just recently rewatched 12's final three episodes. In Twice Upon a Time he explicitly referred to the Hartnell regeneration as the first time it happened. Then we can confirm the number of regenerations based on the need for him to get a new cycle of regenerations in 11's last episode. So while it's now canon that the are pre-Doctor versions of this character that they don't remember, I think the established numbering should be considered confirmed canon, with the caveat that 11 is the 11th Doctor, 12th incarnation (due to War Doctor), and 13th regeneration (due to 10 regenerating into himself).
Edit: If RTD is going to sort out the Timeless Child story thread (which is really should) maybe we can hope for an episode where we see the regeneration INTO Hartnell/Bradley. I'd love to see more of him as The Doctor!
EITHER one of the Morbius DOCTOR faces (they need someone who fits) or Ruth is directly before HARTNELL
Yeah it would have sense to have someone who's already established like Ruth, and actually embed her more into the storyline. I need to brush up on Morbius, haven't watched it in years but it seems to be coming up a lot at the moment and seems like it could be relevant!
Jack is rogues lost companion
Sorry, I don't see Rogue as being a character striking fear in the Toymaker...
My take on the Timeless Child revelation is that Hartnell’s Doctor was the incarnation who chose to steal the TARDIS and leave Gallifrey, and it was when that decision was made that the Doctor became the Doctor. The Fugitive Doctor fits in between 2 and 3 (has to be post-Hartnell because her TARDIS was a police box). The Shalke Doctor could fit before the Fugitive Doctor?
Something I noticed about Rouge is he's sent to another dimension and told The Doctor to find (and there for is waiting for The Doctor)
What if he's like River getting referenced/meeting The Doctor out of order, and he's actually the big bad, The One Who Waits... an interdimensional being out for The Doctor. And that plot point will be the focus of season 2