Answers the initial question in the first 30 seconds, elaborates on testing methods and results for the bulk of the video, summarizes with a concise and actionable conclusion, and provides additional sources with more detailed data. This is just a good SciTube video by any metric.
The best way to give information to people in a way they will remember, is to get to your point right away, then spend time explaining the process afterwards.
To make it clear, it's not the length, 30 mins of content would have been just fine. It's the directly getting into the content instead of 10 minutes of babbling teasing, and promoting. Don't worry about the length, the compliment is about the beginning :) at least for me, good job
Seriously dude! As soon as I started the video I had to check because I thought I accidentally jumped partway into it. Nope, just STRAIGHT to the point hahaha
that yapping shit is real probably on social media. people need to get to the point and let off on the need to over talk without saying anything pertinent to the topic or video title.
Hi, this is Mark from Siraya Tech. I found your video really interesting, and I agree with the results. These exact properties are what led us to develop PET-CF for our product line. We sell it on Amazon, and many people use it for 2A prints due to its stiffness, high-temperature resistance, lack of creep, and lower moisture absorption compared to Nylon.
Hi Mark! Couple of questions - 1.) what can I do to make removing brims/skirts easier using your PET-CF on the Bambu Labs X1C PEI textured plate? I've had the biggest troubles removing the smaller printed parts, like small supports, or brims, skirts, etc. It becomes very very tedious removing this material from the PEI textured sheet on the X1C. And 2.) is your PAHT-CF better than your PET-CF for 2A prints? Any caveats in using PAHT-CF? Thanks!
If I were actually printing, I don't have the time for another time consuming hobby, I'd be throwing money at your company for openly supporting the scene.
I read your documentation on mechanical test results of filled pa and pet filaments. Wanted to say thank you for putting this knowledge out there. This really taught me a lot, and I keep the copy on my desk since the day of the initial release.
We've dealt with fiber & nylon based plastics for years in the RC community; it may not work specifically for your scenario... but if you're worried about moisture ingress, try soaking your nylon pieces in WD-40 overnight. Works wonders ;)
@@HoffmanTactical which oils did you try? so far I've only tried olive oil and WD 40 some people use whatever concuction they have. I think this would be an interesting route to expolre as we RC guys only tend to listen to what others have tried because the hobby is also expensive then we have 3D printing on the side which is extra $$$$
What do You mean by soaking it? Will spraying it all over pieces work? Or do I have to open a can pour it into some glass and then put it completly soaked for a night?
@@j-kbt284 I've done both methods, a light spray will be absorbed fairly quickly but may not give you the protection/flexibility you desire. I often soak (submerge) parts that take *heavy* abuse, they bend never break.
@andrews.7754 i heard Bear Creek had issues... I recommend faxon + aero. Psa on a strict budget, but that's me. Just quoting the video. They could be decent uppers,idk. Haven't checked in a bit
That was funny but both my BCA guns 450 bushmaster and 50 Beowulf stack bullets at 100 yards. But I don’t use BCA for other calibers. I bought them to try out and I have no complaints. But I was like “oh man why the poopoo on BCA?”. Your videos are great thanks
For anyone still wanting to use nylon, Dry print like you would filament, coat with epoxy or cerakote to seal in the nylon and seal out the moiture. not only sealing but also taking astetics up a few notches.
@David-ou2rm I mean you don't even really have to if you use some sort of modified version like paht-cf for example. But you would coat the entire print inside and out. If using epoxy get stuff that's on the thin side or heat it up a bit before applying to get a nice thin coat that won't effect fitment. Honestly any kind of paint will work, epoxy and cerakote(and clones) are just the best options as they add durability
@@3dp_edc I’ve been trying to do as much re search on filaments I go with one but then I read cons I haven’t yet purchased filament but I was planning to go with poly maker fiberon pa612-Cf
The biggest issue with many filaments, in my opinion, is that once their moisture content is increased, they become brittle in sub 0 (Celsius) temperatures. Making 3d printed firearm components more prone to catastrophic failures the more they age (collect moisture).
@@HoffmanTactical I mean, it makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Layer lines might even be little pockets of moisture and we all know that water is a bitch that expands when it freezes.
Its a classic "the material HAS TO survive the climate it'll be used in. You don't see gasoline engines in Antarctica, only Diesel (last i checked). In upper midwest were temps can be 105F in summer but reach -20F regularly (few yrs ago, 100x days of subzero)...You WILL NOT see electric vehicles become ppl's only vehicle: they don't do well in such cold temps. Same goes for gun parts: oils have to be able to withstand the cold/high temps; even the materials have to. IF it was a glock frame: it'll prob be OK if its not outside for long periods: AR/rifle receiver...I'd just get billet aluminum for stuff that is STHF/EDC.
@@WolfofnoStreet That kind of "if you think about it until it makes sense" is very effective way to pull you arse first into a wrong rabbit hole that you can't climb out of anymore by yourself. But let me pull you out of there before you get fully succumbed to it. The comment is about material property called brittleness. It is not about the mechanical strength of the structure itself. While pockets of foreign objects and gases or liquids will make any structure weaker regardless of what material it is made from, it doesn't affect the material itself to make it brittle. Some materials have a property to diffuse outside substances into the material itself in molecular level. This is what it means when a material's moisture content is increased. Essentially, the moisture becomes part of the material in molecular level changing its properties in certain conditions, in this case, making it brittle in cold temperature.
Hoffman coming in with a scientific banger... I've literally only used Polymaker PLA Pro (except when I got my first Ender, using the included filament to print the Bunny) and love it so damn much. I'm a Polymaker stan fo SHO.
Dang that PPA-CF from bambu labs is crazy! Twice the dry stiffness of pa6-cf and 50% more strenght than dry pa6-cf! Very impressive... Almost as impressive as that price tag! Yikes! 😬
PPA-CF from bambu has even less creep than PET-CF. Very expensive, but it seems to be the best Nylon. I also think that you gave up on PAHT-CF too soon in your tests, even if the stifness is not up there it makes up for it with the better impact resistance, layer adhesion and very low creep. I read the whole paper, it has very good information and I am grateful for the work you put into it!
Thank you for this video!! I was planning on making a lower out of carbon fiber PETG now I think I'll make it out of pla pro. Keep up the awesome work!!
Where can we find the paper you wrote? Also, Ulitimaker has a page up on annealing PET-CF: Increased strength 30% increased stiffness 10% Increased heat resistance 80 C to 180 C decreased layer adhesion -15% Shrinkage
Bambu PPA-CF is amazing. I printed a Form 1 .22 suppressor core from PPA-CF and it is very, very hard. I mag dumped 100rds through it from a .22 pistol and barely saw any blast baffle erosion.
@@HoffmanTacticalI know someone who is using PA612-CF for the cam and lever. I believe over 500 rounds on them both, though it is in a super safe macdaddy build, not an AR15 (beta on DD).
@@_Livefreeordie_ I was just going to ask @HoffmanTactical if PA12-CF works, does that mean PA612-CF would work (slightly higher Young's modulus, slightly lower yield stress, significantly higher bending modulus). Good to hear there is someone with success.
@@HoffmanTactical .4 or .6 nozzle 300C bed temp 110C speed 15mm/s 30mm brim (a bit overkill but works) If you have overhang issues just increase part cooling a bit. i’m running it on a P1S and P1P so this works for me until I decide to buy a hotter end or wire some resistors onto it to trick the temp… I find they say 320+ but printing slow seems to just work for us.
I took a less scientific approach to come to pretty much the same conclusion you did about pa612cf only I never annealed. Squirted out 3 glock lowers one in pa6gf, pa12cf, and PA612cf. Build them with PSA slides then full sent them into the concrete as hard as I can about 5 times each. Only the 612cf survived so thats what ive been using ever since lmao
Just printed one with polymaker pa12-cf, and i annealed it as well. I tried to break the front off with my hands and could not. What area did you have and issue with on yours?
Besides the other variables you mentioned, I think you'll find that layer adhesion is especially sensitive to extrusion multiplier. Underextrusion decimates layer adhesion.
@@HoffmanTactical Besides PPA, PPS would also be interesting to try. Could you elaborate on the issues with PC (cracking, impact resistance)? I've never heard that before, but I don't have much experience printing it. Was it was thoroughly dried before printing? Like some other polymers, I've heard that it's susceptible to hydrolysis at high temperatures. I'm wondering if a degree of hydrolysis could even occur during drying. Vacuum might be useful to reduce drying temperatures.
@@AwestrikeFearofGods Cracking in parts that are held under constant stress for long periods of time. All filament was dried. I used to use PC blends for production, given enough time parts always failed. But it can take a few months.
@@HoffmanTactical Disappointing results, but very interesting. If you demonstrate this in one of your videos, do you remember the title, or roughly when you posted it? Thanks for your patience.
Imagine the first guy to make a wooden stock then someone says "don't use wood, it will absorb water!" Seal the nylon cf after you print it and it won't absorb moisture. I seal my nylon prints in 2 coats of ceramic, 1 or 2 coats paint, 2 coats clear matte. All my nylon cf prints are rock hard and will last years if not decades. The ceramic also increases heat resistance.
But the parts you typically print are sub mm precise, adding an extra layer of material over the surface as a coating can throw off precision. How exactly do you cover the internal surfaces without disrupting mechanical precision?
Polypropylene with glass/carbon fibers might be a good candidate. It's a highly impact resistant material that is very stiff with the added fibers. I haven't been able to test it
Have you tried Siraya PET-CF? It's often available for about 50USD/KG and feels very strong and stiff, but I don't have equipment for detailed testing. Based on the destructive tests I do with all filament as part of dialing settings in, it holds up to a lot. Even if it ends up being no good for this stuff. For outdoor, automotive, and similar areas, it could be a good option.
Annealing is like super critical for PET-CFs and PAXXX-CF materials. Otherwise you will never ever reach the TDS values. Problem with that is, that you really need a very good annealing oven. Temperatures are around 100 - 120 degrees for these materials and the process improves the mechanical and temperature properties partly significantly. PA6-CF does not suffer so much from annealing in dimensions, but PET can (can, not will, depends on your part). Annealing is very worth giving a try and experimenting with.
I'm definitely going to give it a try. Higher annealing temp is actually better as for as oven availability goes, because a lot of ovens don't get low enough for Nylon / PLA.
The thing with nylon is not necessarily that it becomes softer if it absorbs moisture, it is supposed to do that- both because dry nylon is too brittle, and because nylon is hygroscopic and you physically can't stop it from absorbing moisture once it's out in the air. There's no such thing as dry nylon, dry nylon part is an unfinished part. If finished part that was designed for PLA (or, worse, shamelessly ripped off a part injection molded part) is too soft when printed in nylon- redesign it to be thicker where needed, now it's stiff enough. The problem with nylon in precision applications is that it warps not just as it's printed but also as it absorbs moisture, and that warping has to be accounted for in the part design to have the right tolerances when it gets to operating moisture, regardless of how it's manufactured. Glock's frame is nylon, and if you take one hot off the press and assemble into a gun, I'm sure it will either not shoot or shoot once. They have to sit for a while and take in the water first, and as they do, they get closer to their final shape. PET really is a wonderous material, and it's good to see shine with the advent of 3D printing. It was held back by poor properties for injection molding of large parts, but 3D printing's slow, layered process opened it up for many new applications. Also shoutouts to PLA, the king of "what you design is what you get". After nylon's "we heard you like warping so we made it warp twice", it's nice to have somethng that just gives you precise parts off the build plate. Well, as precise as FDM printing gets.
I think i ran into you at a gun show years ago. I couldn’t figure out where or if it was you. You said Tennessee so I’m sure it was you. That was back in the good ole days of legal solvent traps
PA66 would be more ideal.. but it has a higher melting point, so I'm not even sure it can be used in 3D printing. This is typically what is used in most of our motor driven hand tools like drills and impacts and saws, etc.. I'm not sure how it would show in the creep test though
This is why you cerakote it. I think you will find it will weaken to temperature before moisture. I'm a big fan of finishing parts. I see a lot of youtubers, and random people create fantastic projects. But in most cases they're never finished. Printing and fine tuning, maybe sanding the areas over the supports, is not actually finishing. That's (part of) why people "finish" wood with some kind of "finishing compound" like linseed to protect the wood. Why not do the same with printed parts? The painted projects tend to last longer.
EXACTLY. As soon as I finished prints in Nylon I've contacted a caerakote supplier. I'm planning on getting prints cerakoted. It only adds up to a half thousandth to a thousandth worth of growth over the material which is tiny and shouldn't impede function.
it's a waste of money to finish something that will never be reliable for use. it's mostly for fun. if you want a serious use weapon, get a real lower, it costs way less than all the material you'll be investing into a 3d set up plus cerakote, etc, etc
@@cagneybillingsley2165 Its never a waste to finish a project you started by yourself : ) Doesn't matter if it's quad copters, miniatures, cosplay, or literally anything. Finishing a project gives that feeling of completion in addition to a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction knowing you made the project yourself. Besides AR lowers can be as expensive as 3,000 dollars by themselves.
Your annealing might be affecting, positively, the crystallinity of the PA6. Increasing hardness and geometric stability in our environment. Ordinarily thick walled injection molding PA is very tough due to the high crystallinity of the inner walls curing at a much slower rate. Printing PA has a minimal crystallinity affect because the very small inner area of the melt stream gets cooler much faster ceasing the crystallinity affect of slow cooling. Love your stuff Hoffman!
@@HoffmanTacticali commented this already but im really curious to what u think, have you ever considered pouring low melt metals inside hollow 3d prints, pewter and zinc can be cast in silicone molds in air so some 3d filiments can certainly withstand the heat too, aluminum and zamak might not melt though if the hollow 3d mold is submerged in water while metal is poured in the mold. The idea being metal filled 3d parts which stay together
As always, i really appreciate your thorough, scientific approach to this testing. I look forward to reading your documentation. With that said, I've never been fully convinced that the water-in-a-plastic-bag conditioning is a realistic representation of the kind of moisture a dry-use nylon part will absorb from the environment in the real world.
Well, if it absorbs moisture, it will absorb other liquids, so just stabilize it like they do for weak but pretty wood. Put it in a vacuum chamber in an epoxy resin, suck the air out, then take it out and let it cure. No more absorbing moisture and it will be harder and stiffer!
It's not entirely the same as it's not just air pockets that you can easily access from the outside but water working its way in between the molecular strains over time due to the hydrogen bridge bonds and strong polarity
Hoffman is the "Young's Modulus version of Paul Harrell" in the 3D2A space. Fantastic video. Let's see some Saraya Tech Pet-cf comparative testing next. Ty!
Perhaps you have heard this before, but I would love to see you discuss/get into investment casting. Even Zamak might not be half bad compared to 3DP parts?
OOH YES this is something I have been diving into recently (thanks @Shake the Future) dude is melting iron (and stainless steel in small quantities apparently???) in a 900w microwave with lost PLA casting. it needs some stuff up front to work, but its by far the most accessible and cheap way to melt metal at home as far as I could find.
If that’s what you’re thinking about doing move towards resin printing parts. The ashless resins are much more ashless than ashless filaments, as far as fdm casting filaments go I’ve tried everything but the wax stuff and it’s all pretty dirty to try and investment cast with
@@mrrooter601just go get a fish fryer, wrap it in fiberglass and put your crucible straight in there. Build a furnace out of mud bricks and use bbq charcoal and a blow dryer, there’s way easier ways than trying to Jerry rig a microwave man, way safer too
PPS-CF might be worth a look as well. I know not many consumer printers can print with it right now, but the Qidi Plus4 can and is at a very attainable price point.
Yes, 3ish coats of ceramic and some clear matte after printing will seal it. All my lowers are made this way, all are rock hard. This is like saying "don't make a wood stock, it absorbs moisture". The ceramic also increases heat resistance.
@@TerminalM193 colt hasn't been premium since 2005. Bca furniture is the worst. The mlok handguards are heavy af, the barrel nuts are flimsy and the hardware rusts ridiculously fast. My particular 22lr bca upper has an ejector that flops around in the upper and looks like it was machined with a chisel. The extractor snapped off God knows when which hasn't seemed to affect the function (about 50/50). That being said I have a $800 4-16x on it. Bca does not deserve it.
@@KretinD I never said I liked BCA, I think their practice and products are actually taking advantage of customers with very small budgets. They've made barrel, lower part kits, furniture and a few other things for knights, early days of DD, BCM to name a few. I think a ton of customers would be shocked to know where their specialty BCGs come from as well.
Thanks for taking the time to do all these tests.I have a request: can you test injection-molded nylon as well and compare it with the filaments? I expect it to perform better than the filament, but how much better is the real question!
PLA is strong enough, the only reason its printed in nylon is to withstand the barrel heat. apparently it warps the shroud or whatever if its not nylon
very interested on a video on it. it seems like it would work a little better than a non bull-pup gun because of the way the receiver locks into the stock. same with the p90. actually the p90 would work even better because that barrel is free-float.
Be careful with Bambu CF filaments (and half the others out there). For lowers and hand held stuff it’s fine - but caution around any stocks or prints you plan on putting on your face or near mouth. Their CF flakes off very easy and gets in your skin and becomes airborne.
@@HoffmanTactical right1. I should have added that. I designed a few cheek rests for my 45-70 lever action... then saw the video. I have a beard and having that CF scrubbing on my face when I'm breathing heavy was a huge scare. I sprayed them down with clear coat and now with microscope I cannot see any fibers flaking off anymore. BTW... ProtoPasta filament in CF doesn't leave flakes at all. I've tested a few. (after printing. beforehand it does). I'm sure there's others, but that's one I tested, and prints fine with bambu default CF settings.
I checked if Bambulab PET-CF requires a 0.6mm nozzle and this is the answer I got, "No, Bambu Lab PET-CF does not need a 0.6 mm nozzle: Recommended nozzle Bambu Lab recommends using a hardened steel 0.4 mm nozzle for printing PET-CF. This nozzle size is proven to reduce the risk of clogging and produce higher quality prints. Cautions for Use: 0.2 mm Nozzle Not Compatible Stainless Steel Nozzle Not Recommended Dry before Use for the Highest Print Quality" Quick price comparison: 1KG Black Polymaker PLA Pro - 31.99 CAD 1KG Black Bambulab PET-CF - 98.09 CAD Given that the price of PET-CF is 3x the cost of PLA Pro, I'd suggest people only get PET-CF if they properly made successful prototypes of whatever they wanted to build in PLA/PLA Pro first.
@@HoffmanTactical I use an enclosure with manual preheat and temperature regulation. I have had zero warping issues. I do not anneal, and I have used it for components mounted directly to an air cooled engine (motorcycle)
Oh, man! I'm livin' in the 19th century! I've literally only ever printed with PLA and a tiny bit of PETG. So far so good, but then I'm not doing anything fancy like you. :) Thanks for the great info!!
Could you clarify the importance of density? In these tests we are comparing strength / volume, as the applications in question are space constrained rather than weight constrained.
I've been saying this for years, and not only does it get "flexible" when absorbing moisture BUT potentially WORSE is that it becomes brittle when too dry. GF Nylon is better, but still not optimal. Most composite guns are a mix of ABS/PC with Glass Fiber, same with any good power tool or generally any tool that uses plastic like hammer handles. ASA Glass Fiber IMO should be a great candidate in my 10+ years of 3D printing everything that prints under 320c, IMO would be best. PET-CF is great, but may be too stiff and could possibly crack/shatter. ASA has very little to no creep and excellent shock property's, along with Glass Fiber would make it even better and prevent water absorption issues. With that said, apples and oranges when comparing the "same" filament from different manufactures. Millage WILL very For critical parts used for this type of printing you seriously need to print under 35mm/s, and 15mm/s with minimal cooling will get you near mold like strength. Excessive part cooling WILL temper the plastic, i.e. why annealing is necessary afterwards. Enclosed, heated enclosure is best. Generally when printing that slow you can have your part cooling fan off and about %15 (different for every machine) for overhangs and bridging/support.
I'll second the part about slow printing. As to ABS / ASA GF, I should try some. Only used carbon and kevlar filled ABS so far, and was not very impressed.
I have to try fiber ASA but imo ASA and ABS are basically the same durability wise. I made a mag grip extension to put a g17 mag in a g26 frame and the ASA seems to rub away more quickly than whatever my lower is made out of just being in my pocket. Seems like soft stuff.
This is also why larger industrial 3D printing manufacturers recommend hydrating nylon based prints immediately after printing. The parts need to be designed based on the dimensions they'll grow to post hydration. The carbon fiber should increase the rigidity of the material substantially. If this material doesn't behave in this manner, it is not being utilized to the maximum capability for the given raw material ingredients.
@@Nerfherder-oo7iv yes, so his long term shear strength will be poor but I'd be curious to see if this is presenting as a flexibility issue or if there are 2 critical problems.
Please test PPA-CF from Qidi tech! Its similar to the bambu PPA-CF but has significantly better layer adhesion. Its also supposed to handle moisture significantly better than other nylons including PA12. Its also supposed to have nearly no creep like PET-CF.
Glock polymer2, or nylon 6. P80's are made from glass filled nylon. As a material, by the processes used by major manufacturers, it is very suitable. If your theory is true, it would indicate that nylon is deficient due to the printing work flow/process, more than the material being an issue.
I would say it is an issue with the blends used to make filaments, as well as a lack of the longer fibers of IM. Definitely worth investigating further.
Surprised to see your thoughts on PETG. It is a hard material to get the settings just right and work with I'll admit that, but prints seem to be fine with .8 mm nozzle for these applications. I do add additional reinforcement to the stl models in blender also though where needed. Thanks for all your work on the SL9, the lrbho you implemented was exceptional. Cheers from VA!
Goo video, appreciate you making this video before i purchase any nylon with how expensive it is. Ive read through your experiment and discussed it online but hesring you explain your reasoning helped I think we all love pla pro, but its temperature resistance is a huge problem. I ruined a bunch of followers by leaving them in my car
Sorry for the rapid fire … haha … you want layer adhesion , try PCT instead of PET, it has layer adhesion so good it has yield strength equivalence between layer and perpendicular, find a PCT-CF
@@HoffmanTactical personally PC-CF Priline, they have a hard/superhard, also polymaker/prusia have good pc blends, much better than pa-12. Ive considered trying ASA-CF but havent yet. This stuff is tough and hard. Use magigoo PC for bed adhesion, i use powder coated pei
@@riba2233 I didnt mean to confuse the conversation, @HoffmanTactical was suggesting using PETG-CF but commented on layer adhesion. PCTG is isotropic meaning equal strength in all axises and if they made a PCTG-CF that would be better than PETG-CF. I was then asked what I use, I use Polycarponate PC with carbon fiber. PETG/PCTG is tougher than PLA but much weaker, it does not have the hygroscopic issues that Polyamide (Nylon) has which is true but simply isnt strong enough for for long-lived upper and lowers and although it has a higher Heat deflection temp will still soften under 100C. polycarbonate on the other hand is also hygroscopic but not even as much as PA-12. Nylon 6 or 6-6 should never be used in this application with or without CF because of what happens when it reverts back to its “wet” state. Polymax PC, Priline Hard and Super-hard PC-CF are suitable options as they are superior in heat deflection, tensile strength to PETG/PCTG and its quite tough too.cNC kitchen has quiet good material tests that are worth watching on youtube … It also is as affordable as PA-12 CF. I have successfully printed lowers in this and I recomend it. I would still be mindful to orient the model so that layers to minimize shear across layer lines but that is for any material
One last clarification, this is all for the best material at PA-12 CF prices and below … the next series of materials would be PPS/PSU/PPSU then PEIs PEEK and PEKK I could print with my printer but not willing to shell out that kind of $$$ PEKK or PEKK CF if price was no object … check out vision miners tier list video
Polymer scientist here: The number 1 advantage of CF nylon is the water absorption of the nylon: It makes the nylon more ductile and significantly íncreases impact strength of the material. Of course the high volume change and the creep of the material is an issue, i.e. you cannot screw PA6 - CF; PA46-CF, PA11-CF, PA12-CF or PA66-CF materials together as the material will creep away from the screws loosening them, you need steel bushings for that. And you defenetly should not print any high precision machines from this material, it just is not suitable for that. In case of guns you can print the bodywork of the Gun, as the high impact strength and wear resistance will keep it alive even under heavy abuse, you can print bumpers for remote controlled cars, etc. from this material. For anything else there is PPA-CF or PC-CF. Also Glasfiber materials have better impact srength, while Carbonfiber materials have better fatigue strength and higher overall strength.
Have you tried any 3DX tech blends? They advertise "Very low moisture absorption yielding improved retention of mechanical properties even when exposed to humid environments" with their nylons. I've been happy with their products and they're made in the USA so I wish they got more love.
I've not actually. Should check some of their stuff out. In general though, the US filament companies tend to oversell and underperform. Not saying 3DXtech is guilty of this, just probably why I've not considered their products more.
You should do a video like this specifically for the best filaments to use with super safety type applications. Working on my AUG SS shortly and it would be really helpful knowing what filaments we could get the most out of.
I've been using Overture PLA PRO, but just switched over to filacube HTPLA+ for my UMP 9/11 build. Hoping I get all the strength of PLA plus with a little higher temp resistance
Yeah, I think IDEX is important. Really three materials. Use a 1 dissolvable for supports, use a 2 lattice inside of glass filled or carbon fiber 3 nylon. But I could be wrong.
Brother you are a genius on the 3d printing stuff, I applaud your research! I found this video because I'm Printing a 5" Nylon Carbon intake for my drift car. I would love to hear your thoughts on what the best material for engine bay prints would be! Temps in the engine bay get up to 240 degrees F. Occasional oil will be spilled on it, lots of rain water will be splashed up from tires at wet events, and if the radiator overheats that could lead to 250 degree F coolant being sprayed on it. It wont have impacts and the intake itself only weighs 2 lbs so there wont be many forces pulling it apart. What would your best recommendation be for filament holding up in these oddball variables?
CF Nylon is probably a good option, as it sounds like high stiffness is not a priority. 240 F is pretty hot, it might start creeping at that point. Annealed Bambu PAHT-CF claims to have a HDT over 300 F, so that's is probably your best bet. It also is reasonably stiff and performed better than many of the Nylons in this test.
I'm sticking with PA6-CF right now, simply because I can anneal it, I like 2kg spools, and Bambu PET-CF is roughly twice as expensive. I'll keep an eye out for Bambu sales, though. I see what you mean about not needing to anneal PET-CF, but it's probably best to do it anyway for anything exposed to operational heat, like barrel mounts or even handguards. Unannealed, the HDT is closer to 80C than the >200C you see on the stat sheet.
Nice work👍 Did you ever had the chance to investigate in PCTG/PCTG-GF/PCTG-CF prints parameters regarding the subject of this video? Especially the UV resistance and enhanced thermal stability compated to PLA based filaments seems appealing
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
Answers the initial question in the first 30 seconds, elaborates on testing methods and results for the bulk of the video, summarizes with a concise and actionable conclusion, and provides additional sources with more detailed data. This is just a good SciTube video by any metric.
Thanks man.
The best way to give information to people in a way they will remember, is to get to your point right away, then spend time explaining the process afterwards.
Yes I appreciate it enormously!! You got my subscribe
Yep, this fact got my sub
It's refreshing to see a TH-camr get into the real content so quickly instead of waffling around for ten minutes before answering the title
LOL. Actually got the time down from 30 minutes with these aggressive cuts.
To make it clear, it's not the length, 30 mins of content would have been just fine. It's the directly getting into the content instead of 10 minutes of babbling teasing, and promoting. Don't worry about the length, the compliment is about the beginning :) at least for me, good job
Seriously dude! As soon as I started the video I had to check because I thought I accidentally jumped partway into it. Nope, just STRAIGHT to the point hahaha
@@HoffmanTactical I think he means leading with the problem, not making us wait for it.
that yapping shit is real probably on social media. people need to get to the point and let off on the need to over talk without saying anything pertinent to the topic or video title.
Hi, this is Mark from Siraya Tech. I found your video really interesting, and I agree with the results. These exact properties are what led us to develop PET-CF for our product line. We sell it on Amazon, and many people use it for 2A prints due to its stiffness, high-temperature resistance, lack of creep, and lower moisture absorption compared to Nylon.
I have used your pet-cf filament. Has performed beautifully for me
Hi Mark! Couple of questions - 1.) what can I do to make removing brims/skirts easier using your PET-CF on the Bambu Labs X1C PEI textured plate? I've had the biggest troubles removing the smaller printed parts, like small supports, or brims, skirts, etc. It becomes very very tedious removing this material from the PEI textured sheet on the X1C. And 2.) is your PAHT-CF better than your PET-CF for 2A prints? Any caveats in using PAHT-CF? Thanks!
@@nextlvlroy I like to ajust the distance of the brim from the print itself, it works beautifully
@@InternetUser-lj7um what do you mean? like make it much closer to the print that way it removes along with it?
If I were actually printing, I don't have the time for another time consuming hobby, I'd be throwing money at your company for openly supporting the scene.
I read your documentation on mechanical test results of filled pa and pet filaments. Wanted to say thank you for putting this knowledge out there. This really taught me a lot, and I keep the copy on my desk since the day of the initial release.
We've dealt with fiber & nylon based plastics for years in the RC community; it may not work specifically for your scenario... but if you're worried about moisture ingress, try soaking your nylon pieces in WD-40 overnight. Works wonders ;)
Agree. Although wd40 is only the tip of the iceberg. Other oils work as well
I played with using oil a while back, which did not work. But an actual WD may. Interesting.
@@HoffmanTactical which oils did you try? so far I've only tried olive oil and WD 40 some people use whatever concuction they have. I think this would be an interesting route to expolre as we RC guys only tend to listen to what others have tried because the hobby is also expensive then we have 3D printing on the side which is extra $$$$
What do You mean by soaking it? Will spraying it all over pieces work? Or do I have to open a can pour it into some glass and then put it completly soaked for a night?
@@j-kbt284 I've done both methods, a light spray will be absorbed fairly quickly but may not give you the protection/flexibility you desire. I often soak (submerge) parts that take *heavy* abuse, they bend never break.
"That's because Bear Creek uppers don't deserve them"
Shots fired.
also, true.
Why the hate? Consider me a poverty-tier upper enjoyer
@andrews.7754 i heard Bear Creek had issues... I recommend faxon + aero. Psa on a strict budget, but that's me.
Just quoting the video. They could be decent uppers,idk. Haven't checked in a bit
Haha I got a good laugh out of that one too. Seems like their uppers and barrels are ok but their bcgs, firing pins, and bolts just fall apart.
That was funny but both my BCA guns 450 bushmaster and 50 Beowulf stack bullets at 100 yards. But I don’t use BCA for other calibers. I bought them to try out and I have no complaints. But I was like “oh man why the poopoo on BCA?”. Your videos are great thanks
@@andrews.7754 several ppl have had issues. Just get PSA, better company & product, same price
Factual, fast paced, and not without some humor. 10/10
Video starts at 0:00 you’re welcome
Love the real world testing of filaments and am looking forward to your full results on PPA-CF.
For anyone still wanting to use nylon,
Dry print like you would filament, coat with epoxy or cerakote to seal in the nylon and seal out the moiture. not only sealing but also taking astetics up a few notches.
Should we coat just the outside frame? i plan to use pa612 filament
@David-ou2rm I mean you don't even really have to if you use some sort of modified version like paht-cf for example. But you would coat the entire print inside and out. If using epoxy get stuff that's on the thin side or heat it up a bit before applying to get a nice thin coat that won't effect fitment. Honestly any kind of paint will work, epoxy and cerakote(and clones) are just the best options as they add durability
@@3dp_edc I’ve been trying to do as much re search on filaments I go with one but then I read cons I haven’t yet purchased filament but I was planning to go with poly maker fiberon pa612-Cf
The biggest issue with many filaments, in my opinion, is that once their moisture content is increased, they become brittle in sub 0 (Celsius) temperatures. Making 3d printed firearm components more prone to catastrophic failures the more they age (collect moisture).
I've never heard of this, will have to check it out. Yet another reason to stay from PA I guess.
@@HoffmanTactical I mean, it makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Layer lines might even be little pockets of moisture and we all know that water is a bitch that expands when it freezes.
Its a classic "the material HAS TO survive the climate it'll be used in. You don't see gasoline engines in Antarctica, only Diesel (last i checked). In upper midwest were temps can be 105F in summer but reach -20F regularly (few yrs ago, 100x days of subzero)...You WILL NOT see electric vehicles become ppl's only vehicle: they don't do well in such cold temps.
Same goes for gun parts: oils have to be able to withstand the cold/high temps; even the materials have to. IF it was a glock frame: it'll prob be OK if its not outside for long periods: AR/rifle receiver...I'd just get billet aluminum for stuff that is STHF/EDC.
@@WolfofnoStreet That kind of "if you think about it until it makes sense" is very effective way to pull you arse first into a wrong rabbit hole that you can't climb out of anymore by yourself. But let me pull you out of there before you get fully succumbed to it.
The comment is about material property called brittleness. It is not about the mechanical strength of the structure itself. While pockets of foreign objects and gases or liquids will make any structure weaker regardless of what material it is made from, it doesn't affect the material itself to make it brittle.
Some materials have a property to diffuse outside substances into the material itself in molecular level. This is what it means when a material's moisture content is increased. Essentially, the moisture becomes part of the material in molecular level changing its properties in certain conditions, in this case, making it brittle in cold temperature.
I did not expect this quality, no slowed down speech, no bs video.
So don't, uh, make a submarine out of it?
Humidity unfortunately exists.
FUCK im halfway through printing my submarine out of pa12 cf
@@HoffmanTactical "bUt it'S wAteR aNnEaLeD"
@@th600mike3 "After a certain point safety is pure waste." - Stockton Rush
Life, uh, finds a way..
Nice info. In my experience BambuLab PA6-CF is strong even without annealing (very minimal creeping). BL PPA-CF looks very strong in specs.
Great work dude, got straight to the point super quickly. I love it
Props for going into the details to this level. This is the kind of intelligent analysis and thinking I like to see in videos!
Hoffman coming in with a scientific banger... I've literally only used Polymaker PLA Pro (except when I got my first Ender, using the included filament to print the Bunny) and love it so damn much. I'm a Polymaker stan fo SHO.
Love me some Polymaker.
*Checks my inventory for PET-CF* Damn, don’t have a roll! Placing order now. Great video - appreciate all of this info!
Dang that PPA-CF from bambu labs is crazy! Twice the dry stiffness of pa6-cf and 50% more strenght than dry pa6-cf! Very impressive... Almost as impressive as that price tag! Yikes! 😬
It is. Just waiting on it to come back into stock.
Polymaker has one. And they basically made it for us.
@@paintballercali pps-cf? or ppa-cf?
I would have a hard time supporting anyone else they rock
@@InternetUser-lj7um”the promotional code you entered is not valid” do you need a url to get it?
PPA-CF from bambu has even less creep than PET-CF. Very expensive, but it seems to be the best Nylon. I also think that you gave up on PAHT-CF too soon in your tests, even if the stifness is not up there it makes up for it with the better impact resistance, layer adhesion and very low creep. I read the whole paper, it has very good information and I am grateful for the work you put into it!
I agree, PAHT-CF was actually pretty good.
And yet again another reason why in the end I just end back up on PLA-Pro for 2A stuff and just concentrate on temperature mitigation on the parts.
Wow man, this video is excellent. No fluff, just DATA DATA DATA. Very good, thank you!
Missed your content! Glad to see your back to making amazing tools
Thank you for this video!! I was planning on making a lower out of carbon fiber PETG now I think I'll make it out of pla pro. Keep up the awesome work!!
Some CF PETG is actually OK. Just depends on the brand. The Polymaker was not that good, but the Push Plastic had similar impact resistance to PET-CF.
Where can we find the paper you wrote?
Also, Ulitimaker has a page up on annealing PET-CF:
Increased strength 30%
increased stiffness 10%
Increased heat resistance 80 C to 180 C
decreased layer adhesion -15%
Shrinkage
The layer adhesion part is interesting.
can find the paper on odyssey, go there and search hoffman tactical
@@HoffmanTactical Yeah, I wasn't expecting that
Love how he gets straight to the point
Bambu PPA-CF is amazing. I printed a Form 1 .22 suppressor core from PPA-CF and it is very, very hard. I mag dumped 100rds through it from a .22 pistol and barely saw any blast baffle erosion.
.22
Awesome! Though to be fair, ABS will actually hold up to this as well.
Finally, Hoff, I need your notifications. Welcome back, sir, to the grid. Excellent recoil pull with your decimal creation, sir.
Do a super safe torture test with different filaments to determine the most reliable material for the application
THIS!
Already did. PA12-CF from Polymaker is the only one that meets the requirements.
@@HoffmanTacticalI know someone who is using PA612-CF for the cam and lever. I believe over 500 rounds on them both, though it is in a super safe macdaddy build, not an AR15 (beta on DD).
@@_Livefreeordie_ I was just going to ask @HoffmanTactical if PA12-CF works, does that mean PA612-CF would work (slightly higher Young's modulus, slightly lower yield stress, significantly higher bending modulus). Good to hear there is someone with success.
@@_Livefreeordie_ As long as you can print with enough detail, the PA612 should do better than the PA12. It just won't print with a 0.25.
Happy to see you back doing videos
The “intro” was like a shotgun, wasn’t expecting the info so quickly, great video
PPS-CF10 💅🏼
What nozzle temp are you running? I still need to try my roll of PPS, but Polymaker recommended 320+ C.
@@HoffmanTactical .4 or .6 nozzle 300C
bed temp 110C
speed 15mm/s
30mm brim (a bit overkill but works)
If you have overhang issues just increase part cooling a bit.
i’m running it on a P1S and P1P so this works for me until I decide to buy a hotter end or wire some resistors onto it to trick the temp…
I find they say 320+ but printing slow seems to just work for us.
@@HoffmanTacticalWe need annealed pa612-cf vs annealed pet-cf.
I also picked up some pet-gf at 3dPrintopia to test as well
@@DeskPop Omg deskpop! hype!
@@HoffmanTactical Can DM you or anyone else the filament settings too; just let me know on the gram if you want em.
Most test the material for breaking point which I hate. The creap is so important in tight tolerance prints. Great graph
I took a less scientific approach to come to pretty much the same conclusion you did about pa612cf only I never annealed.
Squirted out 3 glock lowers one in pa6gf, pa12cf, and PA612cf. Build them with PSA slides then full sent them into the concrete as hard as I can about 5 times each. Only the 612cf survived so thats what ive been using ever since lmao
Just printed one with polymaker pa12-cf, and i annealed it as well. I tried to break the front off with my hands and could not. What area did you have and issue with on yours?
@@Turbolious after a few days it absorbs moisture and gets soft and weak
@@stopminingmydata Did you anneal the pa12-cf?
@@Turbolious Nop
Besides the other variables you mentioned, I think you'll find that layer adhesion is especially sensitive to extrusion multiplier. Underextrusion decimates layer adhesion.
Correct.
@@HoffmanTactical Besides PPA, PPS would also be interesting to try. Could you elaborate on the issues with PC (cracking, impact resistance)? I've never heard that before, but I don't have much experience printing it. Was it was thoroughly dried before printing? Like some other polymers, I've heard that it's susceptible to hydrolysis at high temperatures. I'm wondering if a degree of hydrolysis could even occur during drying. Vacuum might be useful to reduce drying temperatures.
@@AwestrikeFearofGods Cracking in parts that are held under constant stress for long periods of time. All filament was dried. I used to use PC blends for production, given enough time parts always failed. But it can take a few months.
@@HoffmanTactical Disappointing results, but very interesting. If you demonstrate this in one of your videos, do you remember the title, or roughly when you posted it? Thanks for your patience.
@@AwestrikeFearofGods Not done any videos on it, but I'll try and post some more pics on Instagram.
Imagine the first guy to make a wooden stock then someone says "don't use wood, it will absorb water!" Seal the nylon cf after you print it and it won't absorb moisture. I seal my nylon prints in 2 coats of ceramic, 1 or 2 coats paint, 2 coats clear matte. All my nylon cf prints are rock hard and will last years if not decades. The ceramic also increases heat resistance.
But the parts you typically print are sub mm precise, adding an extra layer of material over the surface as a coating can throw off precision. How exactly do you cover the internal surfaces without disrupting mechanical precision?
@@TheSquizzlethe doesn't protect the insides. He's operating on sunk cost fallacy. It is cope.
Awesome comment! This was my first thought during the video - glad to hear it works 😊
@@acmhfmggruasa-gf has worked for me.
@@acmhfmggru I'll speak for myself thanks. You're also wrong, I do coat the inside.
Polypropylene with glass/carbon fibers might be a good candidate. It's a highly impact resistant material that is very stiff with the added fibers. I haven't been able to test it
Have you tried Siraya PET-CF? It's often available for about 50USD/KG and feels very strong and stiff, but I don't have equipment for detailed testing.
Based on the destructive tests I do with all filament as part of dialing settings in, it holds up to a lot.
Even if it ends up being no good for this stuff. For outdoor, automotive, and similar areas, it could be a good option.
Not yet, but it looks solid.
Annealing is like super critical for PET-CFs and PAXXX-CF materials. Otherwise you will never ever reach the TDS values. Problem with that is, that you really need a very good annealing oven. Temperatures are around 100 - 120 degrees for these materials and the process improves the mechanical and temperature properties partly significantly. PA6-CF does not suffer so much from annealing in dimensions, but PET can (can, not will, depends on your part).
Annealing is very worth giving a try and experimenting with.
I'm definitely going to give it a try. Higher annealing temp is actually better as for as oven availability goes, because a lot of ovens don't get low enough for Nylon / PLA.
That spool has a really handsome face on it
Sure does.
The thing with nylon is not necessarily that it becomes softer if it absorbs moisture, it is supposed to do that- both because dry nylon is too brittle, and because nylon is hygroscopic and you physically can't stop it from absorbing moisture once it's out in the air. There's no such thing as dry nylon, dry nylon part is an unfinished part. If finished part that was designed for PLA (or, worse, shamelessly ripped off a part injection molded part) is too soft when printed in nylon- redesign it to be thicker where needed, now it's stiff enough.
The problem with nylon in precision applications is that it warps not just as it's printed but also as it absorbs moisture, and that warping has to be accounted for in the part design to have the right tolerances when it gets to operating moisture, regardless of how it's manufactured. Glock's frame is nylon, and if you take one hot off the press and assemble into a gun, I'm sure it will either not shoot or shoot once. They have to sit for a while and take in the water first, and as they do, they get closer to their final shape.
PET really is a wonderous material, and it's good to see shine with the advent of 3D printing. It was held back by poor properties for injection molding of large parts, but 3D printing's slow, layered process opened it up for many new applications.
Also shoutouts to PLA, the king of "what you design is what you get". After nylon's "we heard you like warping so we made it warp twice", it's nice to have somethng that just gives you precise parts off the build plate. Well, as precise as FDM printing gets.
I think i ran into you at a gun show years ago. I couldn’t figure out where or if it was you. You said Tennessee so I’m sure it was you. That was back in the good ole days of legal solvent traps
LOL.
@@HoffmanTactical I don't want to parasocial but east middle or west?
PA66 would be more ideal.. but it has a higher melting point, so I'm not even sure it can be used in 3D printing. This is typically what is used in most of our motor driven hand tools like drills and impacts and saws, etc.. I'm not sure how it would show in the creep test though
This is why you cerakote it. I think you will find it will weaken to temperature before moisture.
I'm a big fan of finishing parts. I see a lot of youtubers, and random people create fantastic projects. But in most cases they're never finished.
Printing and fine tuning, maybe sanding the areas over the supports, is not actually finishing.
That's (part of) why people "finish" wood with some kind of "finishing compound" like linseed to protect the wood.
Why not do the same with printed parts? The painted projects tend to last longer.
EXACTLY. As soon as I finished prints in Nylon I've contacted a caerakote supplier. I'm planning on getting prints cerakoted. It only adds up to a half thousandth to a thousandth worth of growth over the material which is tiny and shouldn't impede function.
it's a waste of money to finish something that will never be reliable for use. it's mostly for fun. if you want a serious use weapon, get a real lower, it costs way less than all the material you'll be investing into a 3d set up plus cerakote, etc, etc
That’s very smart actually, is it worth it to cerakote PLA+ or PETG? Or should this be done with Nylon?
@@lucrativelucas2655
Anything that can hold its shape at 300° F (148.9°C).
Just be **CERTAIN** the part is completely dry once printed.
@@cagneybillingsley2165
Its never a waste to finish a project you started by yourself : )
Doesn't matter if it's quad copters, miniatures, cosplay, or literally anything. Finishing a project gives that feeling of completion in addition to a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction knowing you made the project yourself.
Besides AR lowers can be as expensive as 3,000 dollars by themselves.
Your annealing might be affecting, positively, the crystallinity of the PA6. Increasing hardness and geometric stability in our environment. Ordinarily thick walled injection molding PA is very tough due to the high crystallinity of the inner walls curing at a much slower rate. Printing PA has a minimal crystallinity affect because the very small inner area of the melt stream gets cooler much faster ceasing the crystallinity affect of slow cooling.
Love your stuff Hoffman!
Way to go. This kinda info is hard to get. I was a pa6 gf advocate for years..... I mean it worked for injection molding
Yes. I've seen this a lot, the Nylons and fills used in filament are just not the same.
I got myself some PA612-CF that I really like, but didn't realize the importance of annealing. Thank you, I'll check that out.
I think PPA-CF is gunna make people shit bricks, certainly promising and cant wait for you to tell us how it performs
Yes, it does look good. Wondering if it might have impact or adhesion issues. Only one way to find out.
Bambu PPA-CF is next level. Incredibly easy to print and unbelievably rigid. The only problem is now I want to print everything out of it.
@@HoffmanTacticali commented this already but im really curious to what u think, have you ever considered pouring low melt metals inside hollow 3d prints, pewter and zinc can be cast in silicone molds in air so some 3d filiments can certainly withstand the heat too, aluminum and zamak might not melt though if the hollow 3d mold is submerged in water while metal is poured in the mold. The idea being metal filled 3d parts which stay together
yeah, $150 for 0.75kg, hell no.
As always, i really appreciate your thorough, scientific approach to this testing. I look forward to reading your documentation. With that said, I've never been fully convinced that the water-in-a-plastic-bag conditioning is a realistic representation of the kind of moisture a dry-use nylon part will absorb from the environment in the real world.
It's basically 100% humidity. Not everywhere get's that, so in dry areas you are better off. But here in TN, it's WET.
And the king of 2A freedom string remains undefeated. All hail PLA Pro/PLA + :D
Always an amazing amount of information. Thank you for sharing and all the hard work.
Well, if it absorbs moisture, it will absorb other liquids, so just stabilize it like they do for weak but pretty wood.
Put it in a vacuum chamber in an epoxy resin, suck the air out, then take it out and let it cure.
No more absorbing moisture and it will be harder and stiffer!
It's not entirely the same as it's not just air pockets that you can easily access from the outside but water working its way in between the molecular strains over time due to the hydrogen bridge bonds and strong polarity
@@Pluap 🤓
Cool test. Now please do it again with heated chamber prints. I'd love to see what the changes are .
With these filaments it probably would not have a huge effect, layer adhesion primarily.
wait, u said at 4:18 to check description for the data, am i blind? i dont see it there
Decided to leave it out due to our friends at TH-cam. They don't like that type of thing. It's not hard to find if you look at my Odd Sea page.
@@HoffmanTactical ah! i was thinking i would find it there as well then forgot about it LOL thank you!
Hoffman is the "Young's Modulus version of Paul Harrell" in the 3D2A space. Fantastic video. Let's see some Saraya Tech Pet-cf comparative testing next. Ty!
Perhaps you have heard this before, but I would love to see you discuss/get into investment casting. Even Zamak might not be half bad compared to 3DP parts?
Would be fun.
OOH YES this is something I have been diving into recently (thanks @Shake the Future) dude is melting iron (and stainless steel in small quantities apparently???) in a 900w microwave with lost PLA casting. it needs some stuff up front to work, but its by far the most accessible and cheap way to melt metal at home as far as I could find.
If that’s what you’re thinking about doing move towards resin printing parts. The ashless resins are much more ashless than ashless filaments, as far as fdm casting filaments go I’ve tried everything but the wax stuff and it’s all pretty dirty to try and investment cast with
@@mrrooter601just go get a fish fryer, wrap it in fiberglass and put your crucible straight in there. Build a furnace out of mud bricks and use bbq charcoal and a blow dryer, there’s way easier ways than trying to Jerry rig a microwave man, way safer too
@@Najsnwjsbdn Yes. This is the one thing that would get me to drag out the resin machines.
PPS-CF might be worth a look as well. I know not many consumer printers can print with it right now, but the Qidi Plus4 can and is at a very attainable price point.
Just updated my firmware to print PPS. Looking forward to it.
Could this problem be solved with some kind of coating or lacquer?
No. Use PET.
Sounds good
Yes, 3ish coats of ceramic and some clear matte after printing will seal it. All my lowers are made this way, all are rock hard. This is like saying "don't make a wood stock, it absorbs moisture". The ceramic also increases heat resistance.
I absolutely confirm, thanks for the video
Facts bca dont deserve optics
You'd be absolutely SHOCKED at how many premium tier AR companies use BCA barrels and furniture.... Colt being one of MANY.
@@TerminalM193 colt hasn't been premium since 2005. Bca furniture is the worst. The mlok handguards are heavy af, the barrel nuts are flimsy and the hardware rusts ridiculously fast.
My particular 22lr bca upper has an ejector that flops around in the upper and looks like it was machined with a chisel. The extractor snapped off God knows when which hasn't seemed to affect the function (about 50/50).
That being said I have a $800 4-16x on it. Bca does not deserve it.
@@KretinD I never said I liked BCA, I think their practice and products are actually taking advantage of customers with very small budgets. They've made barrel, lower part kits, furniture and a few other things for knights, early days of DD, BCM to name a few. I think a ton of customers would be shocked to know where their specialty BCGs come from as well.
Thanks for taking the time to do all these tests.I have a request: can you test injection-molded nylon as well and compare it with the filaments? I expect it to perform better than the filament, but how much better is the real question!
This would actually be really interesting, but not sure how I'd do it fairly without having parts actually molded ;)
great video and was a pleasure to bump into you at iv8888 rangeday this year!
Have you tried the NylAug project yet? Would that even be possible in any other filament?
I've not, though I'm sure it would work with PLA Pro, heat aside.
PLA is strong enough, the only reason its printed in nylon is to withstand the barrel heat. apparently it warps the shroud or whatever if its not nylon
very interested on a video on it. it seems like it would work a little better than a non bull-pup gun because of the way the receiver locks into the stock. same with the p90. actually the p90 would work even better because that barrel is free-float.
@@HoffmanTactical thanks for the reply man, love your content!
definitely; i want to get into the heated enclosures; seems like a big up in quality.
Be careful with Bambu CF filaments (and half the others out there). For lowers and hand held stuff it’s fine - but caution around any stocks or prints you plan on putting on your face or near mouth. Their CF flakes off very easy and gets in your skin and becomes airborne.
That video had so much influence. I find that a light wax (think hard shoe polish) helps prevent fiber contact.
@@HoffmanTactical right1. I should have added that. I designed a few cheek rests for my 45-70 lever action... then saw the video. I have a beard and having that CF scrubbing on my face when I'm breathing heavy was a huge scare. I sprayed them down with clear coat and now with microscope I cannot see any fibers flaking off anymore.
BTW... ProtoPasta filament in CF doesn't leave flakes at all. I've tested a few. (after printing. beforehand it does). I'm sure there's others, but that's one I tested, and prints fine with bambu default CF settings.
Love the time you put into the work. And you share!
It's been a while nice to see you back and sharing. 👍👍👍
I checked if Bambulab PET-CF requires a 0.6mm nozzle and this is the answer I got,
"No, Bambu Lab PET-CF does not need a 0.6 mm nozzle:
Recommended nozzle
Bambu Lab recommends using a hardened steel 0.4 mm nozzle for printing PET-CF. This nozzle size is proven to reduce the risk of clogging and produce higher quality prints.
Cautions for Use:
0.2 mm Nozzle Not Compatible
Stainless Steel Nozzle Not Recommended
Dry before Use for the Highest Print Quality"
Quick price comparison:
1KG Black Polymaker PLA Pro - 31.99 CAD
1KG Black Bambulab PET-CF - 98.09 CAD
Given that the price of PET-CF is 3x the cost of PLA Pro, I'd suggest people only get PET-CF if they properly made successful prototypes of whatever they wanted to build in PLA/PLA Pro first.
Yes, for single prints 0.4 is fine. But it will clog after enough time. And 100% agree on using PLA+ first.
Excellent work, thank you for what you do man.
I couldn’t get this data on my own so it’s so very appreciated
Nice shouts out to the FBI agent. Than was Good One.😂😂😂😂😂
Gota love those guys.
I feel like merely clicking this thumbnail has gained me a spot on at least one government watch list, probably three
I use primarily Prusament PA11-CF. MUCH lower moisture retention, and decently stiff. I'd love to see that added to your testing.
Yes, never got a chance to test that one. How badly does it warp?
@@HoffmanTactical I use an enclosure with manual preheat and temperature regulation. I have had zero warping issues. I do not anneal, and I have used it for components mounted directly to an air cooled engine (motorcycle)
I’ve been using polymaker pla pro for a minute now and love it. I’ve not printed anything 2a related but I’m glad to know it’s a good choice.
Nice video. Good update. Thanks for the work you do man.
Videos like this make me happy I bought an FLsun v400.
Oh, man! I'm livin' in the 19th century! I've literally only ever printed with PLA and a tiny bit of PETG. So far so good, but then I'm not doing anything fancy like you. :) Thanks for the great info!!
Interesting values, but you forgot to take into consideration the material density, it’s like comparing metals to plastics.
Could you clarify the importance of density? In these tests we are comparing strength / volume, as the applications in question are space constrained rather than weight constrained.
I've been saying this for years, and not only does it get "flexible" when absorbing moisture BUT potentially WORSE is that it becomes brittle when too dry. GF Nylon is better, but still not optimal. Most composite guns are a mix of ABS/PC with Glass Fiber, same with any good power tool or generally any tool that uses plastic like hammer handles.
ASA Glass Fiber IMO should be a great candidate in my 10+ years of 3D printing everything that prints under 320c, IMO would be best. PET-CF is great, but may be too stiff and could possibly crack/shatter. ASA has very little to no creep and excellent shock property's, along with Glass Fiber would make it even better and prevent water absorption issues. With that said, apples and oranges when comparing the "same" filament from different manufactures. Millage WILL very
For critical parts used for this type of printing you seriously need to print under 35mm/s, and 15mm/s with minimal cooling will get you near mold like strength. Excessive part cooling WILL temper the plastic, i.e. why annealing is necessary afterwards. Enclosed, heated enclosure is best. Generally when printing that slow you can have your part cooling fan off and about %15 (different for every machine) for overhangs and bridging/support.
I'll second the part about slow printing. As to ABS / ASA GF, I should try some. Only used carbon and kevlar filled ABS so far, and was not very impressed.
I have to try fiber ASA but imo ASA and ABS are basically the same durability wise. I made a mag grip extension to put a g17 mag in a g26 frame and the ASA seems to rub away more quickly than whatever my lower is made out of just being in my pocket. Seems like soft stuff.
Funny enough Ive had much better layer adhesion with Polymakers PETCF compared to PA6CF.
This is also why larger industrial 3D printing manufacturers recommend hydrating nylon based prints immediately after printing. The parts need to be designed based on the dimensions they'll grow to post hydration. The carbon fiber should increase the rigidity of the material substantially. If this material doesn't behave in this manner, it is not being utilized to the maximum capability for the given raw material ingredients.
He also used Taulman nylon printed at 260 which is way too cold for any layer adhesion. So his results are not reliable given that factor.
@@Nerfherder-oo7iv yes, so his long term shear strength will be poor but I'd be curious to see if this is presenting as a flexibility issue or if there are 2 critical problems.
The issues with Alloy 910 were not related to layer adhesion.
Please test PPA-CF from Qidi tech! Its similar to the bambu PPA-CF but has significantly better layer adhesion. Its also supposed to handle moisture significantly better than other nylons including PA12. Its also supposed to have nearly no creep like PET-CF.
Great tests! helps me with picking filament for my prop projects
Glock polymer2, or nylon 6. P80's are made from glass filled nylon. As a material, by the processes used by major manufacturers, it is very suitable. If your theory is true, it would indicate that nylon is deficient due to the printing work flow/process, more than the material being an issue.
I would say it is an issue with the blends used to make filaments, as well as a lack of the longer fibers of IM. Definitely worth investigating further.
Surprised to see your thoughts on PETG. It is a hard material to get the settings just right and work with I'll admit that, but prints seem to be fine with .8 mm nozzle for these applications. I do add additional reinforcement to the stl models in blender also though where needed. Thanks for all your work on the SL9, the lrbho you implemented was exceptional. Cheers from VA!
Under the right loading PETG will shatter. Seen it happen many times with lowers as well as in testing.
This is really valuable content, even if you don't print guns.
Goo video, appreciate you making this video before i purchase any nylon with how expensive it is. Ive read through your experiment and discussed it online but hesring you explain your reasoning helped
I think we all love pla pro, but its temperature resistance is a huge problem. I ruined a bunch of followers by leaving them in my car
Yes. Testing + learning only for PLA Pro. But to be fair, that's most of what we do.
Sorry for the rapid fire … haha … you want layer adhesion , try PCT instead of PET, it has layer adhesion so good it has yield strength equivalence between layer and perpendicular, find a PCT-CF
Not seeing any with a quick search, who do you use?
@@HoffmanTactical personally PC-CF Priline, they have a hard/superhard, also polymaker/prusia have good pc blends, much better than pa-12.
Ive considered trying ASA-CF but havent yet. This stuff is tough and hard. Use magigoo PC for bed adhesion, i use powder coated pei
@@cryosagthat is polycarbonate, it has nothing to do with pct. There are no pct filaments out there unfortunately, only pctg
@@riba2233 I didnt mean to confuse the conversation, @HoffmanTactical was suggesting using PETG-CF but commented on layer adhesion. PCTG is isotropic meaning equal strength in all axises and if they made a PCTG-CF that would be better than PETG-CF. I was then asked what I use, I use Polycarponate PC with carbon fiber.
PETG/PCTG is tougher than PLA but much weaker, it does not have the hygroscopic issues that Polyamide (Nylon) has which is true but simply isnt strong enough for for long-lived upper and lowers and although it has a higher Heat deflection temp will still soften under 100C. polycarbonate on the other hand is also hygroscopic but not even as much as PA-12. Nylon 6 or 6-6 should never be used in this application with or without CF because of what happens when it reverts back to its “wet” state.
Polymax PC, Priline Hard and Super-hard PC-CF are suitable options as they are superior in heat deflection, tensile strength to PETG/PCTG and its quite tough too.cNC kitchen has quiet good material tests that are worth watching on youtube … It also is as affordable as PA-12 CF. I have successfully printed lowers in this and I recomend it. I would still be mindful to orient the model so that layers to minimize shear across layer lines but that is for any material
One last clarification, this is all for the best material at PA-12 CF prices and below … the next series of materials would be PPS/PSU/PPSU then PEIs PEEK and PEKK
I could print with my printer but not willing to shell out that kind of $$$ PEKK or PEKK CF if price was no object … check out vision miners tier list video
This man is a legend
Polymer scientist here: The number 1 advantage of CF nylon is the water absorption of the nylon: It makes the nylon more ductile and significantly íncreases impact strength of the material. Of course the high volume change and the creep of the material is an issue, i.e. you cannot screw PA6 - CF; PA46-CF, PA11-CF, PA12-CF or PA66-CF materials together as the material will creep away from the screws loosening them, you need steel bushings for that. And you defenetly should not print any high precision machines from this material, it just is not suitable for that. In case of guns you can print the bodywork of the Gun, as the high impact strength and wear resistance will keep it alive even under heavy abuse, you can print bumpers for remote controlled cars, etc. from this material. For anything else there is PPA-CF or PC-CF. Also Glasfiber materials have better impact srength, while Carbonfiber materials have better fatigue strength and higher overall strength.
Well summarized.
love your work Hoff! keep up the amazing content.
Have you tried any 3DX tech blends? They advertise "Very low moisture absorption yielding improved retention of mechanical properties even when exposed to humid environments" with their nylons. I've been happy with their products and they're made in the USA so I wish they got more love.
I've not actually. Should check some of their stuff out. In general though, the US filament companies tend to oversell and underperform. Not saying 3DXtech is guilty of this, just probably why I've not considered their products more.
Straight to the point! Thank you
Very nice, Tim. 😊 👍
You should do a video like this specifically for the best filaments to use with super safety type applications. Working on my AUG SS shortly and it would be really helpful knowing what filaments we could get the most out of.
I've been using Overture PLA PRO, but just switched over to filacube HTPLA+ for my UMP 9/11 build. Hoping I get all the strength of PLA plus with a little higher temp resistance
Yeah, I think IDEX is important. Really three materials. Use a 1 dissolvable for supports, use a 2 lattice inside of glass filled or carbon fiber 3 nylon. But I could be wrong.
Please test bambu ppa-cf!! Would love to see the data. Keep it up !
Brother you are a genius on the 3d printing stuff, I applaud your research! I found this video because I'm Printing a 5" Nylon Carbon intake for my drift car. I would love to hear your thoughts on what the best material for engine bay prints would be! Temps in the engine bay get up to 240 degrees F. Occasional oil will be spilled on it, lots of rain water will be splashed up from tires at wet events, and if the radiator overheats that could lead to 250 degree F coolant being sprayed on it. It wont have impacts and the intake itself only weighs 2 lbs so there wont be many forces pulling it apart. What would your best recommendation be for filament holding up in these oddball variables?
CF Nylon is probably a good option, as it sounds like high stiffness is not a priority. 240 F is pretty hot, it might start creeping at that point. Annealed Bambu PAHT-CF claims to have a HDT over 300 F, so that's is probably your best bet. It also is reasonably stiff and performed better than many of the Nylons in this test.
@@HoffmanTactical Thank you so much brother🙏 I’ll grab a spool and update you how testing goes here in a week or so!
I'm sticking with PA6-CF right now, simply because I can anneal it, I like 2kg spools, and Bambu PET-CF is roughly twice as expensive. I'll keep an eye out for Bambu sales, though.
I see what you mean about not needing to anneal PET-CF, but it's probably best to do it anyway for anything exposed to operational heat, like barrel mounts or even handguards. Unannealed, the HDT is closer to 80C than the >200C you see on the stat sheet.
The Polymaker PET-CF is a lot lower cost and worth a try.
Nice work👍
Did you ever had the chance to investigate in PCTG/PCTG-GF/PCTG-CF prints parameters regarding the subject of this video? Especially the UV resistance and enhanced thermal stability compated to PLA based filaments seems appealing
I tried unfilled PCTG. Unfortunately it randomly shatters under impact.