I appreciate you taking the time to make a video and admitting to your mistakes. It could really help someone in the future. Someone else may have given up thinking they weren't cut out for it or good enough to create things like that. But seeing that other people may make the same mistake will help them continue with whatever they're pursuing.
This is just a quick tip, mill scals is a biproduct of hotrolling steel. So if you got 11 gauge sheet cold rolled it wouldn't have mill scale, and then you don't have to polish the scale off.
On occasion I'll use the cold rolled however the desk I often sell is sold with the mill scale as the finish as opposed to adding an additional patina which is what led to this disaster. I made a poor attempt at trying to match the mill scale with a dark patina...failed and so ended removing mill scale with the acid...another fail but a delayed fail either not something I want to repeat
Your are not the only one who did this. I’m restoring a triumph tr6, used some muratic acid to clean off some rust, forgot to put acid back in container, came back a day or two later and noticed some of my nice metal shaping tools now had a nice coat of rust! We should start of club. The “things not to do” club. Haha. Thanks for video, wings look great, especially the polished ones.
I have been welding for a long time (1985) and I never knew this. it is not a rookie mistake THANK-YOU-for sharing what happens when the humidity, airflow, or lack of it, and temperature make a perfect storm.
WOW! I got educated on a good tip to do with using Muriatic Acid. Thanks! I'll be using Muriatic Acid on my headers, and I'll be sure to take serious steps to use it!
It aggravates me that people write " read the label" like he didn't know. He dose know, and like every single person reading this made a mistake. The humility to put this up so we can learn from his mistake rather than to do likewise, is generous. The mistake was being in a hurry. The reason why I left paint in a bucket to dry. Small things, but what if they had a dog there? Or what if it was lacquer and they had a gas stove (Pilate light).
@@ArtfullyRogue I was really taken by the Angel wings. On one hand the 2 halves make for a stark contrast. But I know from autobody work, the hours that go into getting it just right. Then... It was not the intent.
I already happened to my wood shop, which was an Amish weld shop. It was a concrete floor and a tin roof ceiling with cement block walls. I covered the tin ceiling, insulated the walls and covered them with OSB board, painted the walls. I put a layer of plastic on the cement floor, lathed it out and put in a plywood floor and varnished it. After nearly 30 years, my tools still developed a fine film of rust. So most every time I use a plane or chisel I have to clean the rust. I built cabinets for my tools a few years ago rather than having them conveniently hanging on a tool board. I live in the woods so it is far worse in the summer with humidity here in south eastern Pa. A dehumidifier is going to be purchased soon. I also do some metal work, welding and sculpting. I could never understand why this was happening and my previous home my shop never created such a rusty mess. So now I know and I Thank You kindly. So all this covering up, 30 years ago, painting and moisture barriers and still, traces of muriatic acid. Perhaps I should fill my shop with baking soda for the summer,,,,,,,might foam up though. Sorry for all the extra work you will have to endure. I have spent many hours with steel wool and wire wheels cleaning, which has become part of my summer fair for years. The good thing is that my molding planes sit on the shelf with the cutting edges down and don't rust,,,,,,except for just a little of the cutting edge. So lots of sharpening stones used as well. Mystery solved for me. I feel your pain Brother, believe me! Here's to a fast and speedy and efficient cleaning of wings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
This happened to me with some humidifier lime scale cleaner that I used to clean the rust off a gong. Worked like a charm. I even washed everything off. But I left the acid-soaked rags in the open garbage in the kitchen. I woke up to russssst all over the place.
I like to use gun bluing fallowed up With wire wheel polishing to get the black luster... The level of initial polish before treatment will determine if the bluing looks brushed or mirrored...
I just had to use fine sandpaper and scuff pads to clean rust off my table saw table, mill, and bandsaw because I used an open container to remove mill scale and zinc from some parts I want to weld.
I did the same thing except the shuff in my garage was mostly just scrap for forging but i did have some finished knives and tools that got real rusted from leaving it open.
Very useful information regarding the impact on metal items from just the fumes from Muratic acid. I also learned this the hard way after placing a tightly sealed one gallon jug of muratic acid in a metal cabinet only to open it a week later to find a rusty interior of the cabinet and rust on the power tools stored inside. Best to use in a very well ventilated space or best outdoors and store the jug of muratic acid in a secondary container outside and away from anything metal.
i had stainless steel pdr picks in a plastic box in the back of my truck in the summer. there was a bottle of windex in there that leaked. my tools were completely rusted. i had to wire wheel them and wax coat them.
Sorry for the late response. Sadly the wings have gone to the scrap pile but not before appearing at a sculpture show where people could take pictures of themselves in front of them. On the trailer ride back home, the wind was too much and they nearly "flew" away on the highway. They are in need of much repair.
We use a diluted muriatic acid for tile cleaning. Someone used a heavy mixed on a restaurant kitchen floor after the stainless equipment was installed. They were careful about splashing but the fumes blackened some of the equipment.
Thanks Nancy, As they say, things happen for a reason. Hopefully this reason was so I could share with others so they don't have the same thing happen.
I'm not sure I know the best sealer but I know that I use a two automotive clear coat to seal my projects. The brand varies and I'm watching how they last long term
@@ArtfullyRogue i also use automotive clear coating, some times rust spots beggin to form underneath, i hate it when that happens, thanks for your tips
Happened to me too! Rusted all the raw parts of several machines overnight... The following couple of days was spent scotchbrighing and oiling! Nice desk.. I've done a couple similar ones and a 24 foot bar.. I now use phosphoric acid..
my son and i were doing a project the muratic acid spilled on work bench . 5 days later every thing within 2 feet away was ruined with rust. many tools. keep your acid outside at all times.
Yeah, that's what he's talking about. The dark mill scale. It's a pain to remove or grind off. Especially on thicker plate. Cold rolled has the oil. Hot rolled has the mill scale. If one does not want to remove the mill scale, buy cold rolled. I believe the cost may be a little higher though on some stuff.
Correct. The last thing a factory wants is a rusty surface going through a rolling mill because it abrades to surface of the pinch rollers. Sheets are pickled in HCL or nitric to remove rust between rollings.
Done it myself! It's especially brutal on anything galvanized. It's really aggressive on zinc. We had a gallon on a shelf against a corrugated steel wall and the cap wasn't 100% tight, and after a few weeks, the wall had a dark tornado looking stain starting just above the top of the jug that went clear up the wall to the ceiling 10' above it. Guess where it rusted after that. All my chisels, punches, files dopping tools and drill bits got rusty...anything high carbon took it right in the nuts. All acid projects are now done in open air, and the acid is stored outside until winter, then it gets stored in the basement and is double bagged inside a big ziplock bag.
Love your work. I am not a metal worker, but some of the work you have demonstrated, motivated me to do some metal rusting for effect in my small brewery. I have a drop ceiling where I replaced the tiles with rusted corrugated using the muriatic + copper sulfate trick you demo'd. This I did outdoors. Looks great! Next, I have old galvanized metal bar tops. I experimented with a small side table where I rusted then sealed the top and it looks amazing. But, this I had to do indoors, so for the short period of time, I noticed a bit of surface rusting on a other metal surfaces, nearby. So, now, I am going to run all the ventilation and fans, open every door and roll-up and plastic cover every important surface before I start. Have you continued to use this technique indoors and found ways to avoid unwanted rusting?
After you get the desired look, if possible rinse off the surface, let dry and seal with either a spray lacquer or in your case where it will probably get a lot of use, I would do a paint on or pour on laquer to seal it and cut off the oxygen which keeps the process active.
@@ArtfullyRogue Yep, I think I found a decent product that, so far, seems to do the job of sealing. I have only sealed surfaces that have rusted a week or so. But, I sure love some of the intriguing colors that surface early after adding the copper sulfate. I tried capturing a few early, but rinsing washes away too much of the patina at that stage. And, if leave the muratic and copper sulfate, while I do get some great looking results, there appears to be some salt-like leaching that can occur under the surface, adding some white blotching to the result. Anyway, thanks for all your videos. Our brewery may reach out to you, soon, about adding some of those kick ass doors in our brewery after we get rolling and get a few dollars in.
Ive been doing electro plating in my garage, i used muriatic acid to descale the metal etc, i had left the container on my work bench and about two days later my soldering iron, rolls of solder, everything in my garage was rusty this explains it. Thanks for the video. i feel stupid now😂
In the future dustless blasting would work like a charm, and capping your acid before you jump ship lol hope you were able to save that piece it’s beautiful!!
I'll have to check out dustless blasting for sure. Closing up the acid has been a double check I do every day I leave the shop even if I didn't use it that day :)
Look at the company Texas green blast. It’s a mixture is fine particles and high blast of water that doesn’t leave a cloud and requires less cleanup. In your trade it would be invaluable ;)
If you live in a place with high humidity that can experience temperature swings you will eventually run into an instance where it is cold for a long while making everything in your shop cold followed by a warm humid breeze passing through and that situation will result in condensation on every metal surface and flash rust setting in on anything not protected. I set up this exact situation in my shop sometimes to accelerate patina rust formation on old car body panels and other objects where that look is desirable.
Thanks for posting WHAT NOT TO DO WITH this dangerous chem. If I ever use it, it will be kept outside and used outside. Great wings! Super artistry.....
I had a jug of muriatic acid with the cap ON rust everything within 6 feet, a barstool, a cherry picker ram, some yard tools.... ruined in a few weeks just by being close to the sealed jug of acid nearby.
Completely agreed!! I thought he was going to explain how the muriatic acid gave him a new piece of art for the show...the surprisingly, unexpected beauty of how artistic pieces get completed that truly makes them unique!
If you want to give raw sheet steel that black patina, mill scale look, then you can use phosphoric acid. This will turn that brown rust black. I've used Klean strip metal and concrete prep for this - it works very well since it contains a surfactant it is easy to wipe on and off, and is about a 30% or more concentrate. It's not nearly as agressive as HCL, and in a solutions with a surfactant, it is less likely to evaporate quickly.
I know that pain. I'm having a terrible time coping with what it did to my little Studio shop. Its like being kicked in the gut, i get sick just thinking about it. I'm sorry to hear anyone else went through it.
How can you stop the rust once you have done this? It's been 3 years and everything in my shop still rusts. I cleaned the millscal off of 4 -5*10 welding tables at different times. I would spray it on my tables and leave on for over night sometimes after using a whole gallon. And to top it all off I live in Washington the pacific northwest. I don't even shut my shop doors anymore because everything rust regardless. Help
Fighting rust is an uphill battle. With the wings, I gave up and just powder coated them. Other than keeping everything covered in an oil or some kind of spray on clear coat, I'm not sure eliminate it totally. You have it extra hard being on the coast with so much moisture already in the air.
Thanks dude! Putting all of my solutions outside for now I used Klean GREEN which says 90% less fumes, but still don’t trust it. I’m getting steel down to bare metal then polishing, what do you recommend the best product is to seal/protect it? Thanks!
It helps give a blackened finish to normal carbon steel. It is used to give damascus steel especially in knives a nice pop between the carbon and nickel steel. I think it'd would be awesome on some things you've made, especially those wings in the background!
Great tip! I work with an arrogant tinsmith occasionally. I've been looking for a way to mess with him. I would never have thought of this in a million years. Actually I wouldn't. But knowing you could ....
Very interesting. I've seen a few videos of people using muriatic acid to remove mill scale but no one mentions this. I always need to remove mill scale before welding with my everlast flux core welder.
it's amazing stuff for sure. And if the fumes along rust metal, you have to wonder how the lungs are affected...I wear a mask now anytime I work with it
You should check out Acid Magic Doug. Makes awesome patinas and its user friendly. Ive been using itvfor tye past 2 weeks and this stuff is just as powerful as boric acid. Designed for septic tanks.
I did the exact same thing, rusted my tools and all my steel used for projects. To fix I soaked tools (that could be soaked) in vinegar over night, wiped off with fine steel wool. Rinsed in solution of baking soda and water (to neutralize the vinegar) then rinsed with water. To seal the steel I then sprayed it with WD40 which leaves a finish that won't rust. Lesson learned.
NICE PAGE !!! here is and old trick I use when the mill scale is bad............20 bucks a can, smells like hell, but gives a real nice finish, PS I don't know if it's good in the sun, but I have used this stuff for years inside, I love it
I learned this decades ago when I was in the floor coatings business. Before the advent of mechanically prepping concrete, the preferred method was acid etching. We were doing an auto shop facility at a local school. Without really thinking about it, we etched the floor and proceeded to rust all of the hydraulic lift posts. LUCKILY, it was only cosmetic, and we were able to clean them. But initially, it was horrifying. Lesson learned.
Years ago when we etched the concrete with muriatic acid before tiling we used to put vaseline on any metal in the room to protect it from the acid. Worked well.
I’m a knife maker and I put a billet if Damascus in a tub of muriatic acid. Took it out the next day. Totally forgot bout the tub. Went back to my shop a week later. Drill bits, drill press, knives, knives steel, yep, everything rusted. 😬
many of my tools get that same layer of rust however as I use them I give them a quick buffing and they shine right up, so luckily its only a surface rust
Yes sir, once the mil scale or cladding as we refer to it, is scuffed all you can do is remove the clad and then treat w muriatic acid or salted vinegar, to blacken the steel
I learned my lesson hearing about a dude in metal work class who was grinding some job, then the instructors pulled him aside to warn him that the metal he was grinding gave off mutagenic and poisonous fumes at high temperatures. Since then I ventilate and assume everything is potentially going to rot my property or my body. I feel your pain though dude. For the record its nice to see someone leave mill scale on metal work. Scandinavian knife makers leave it on because its practical.
I doubt it. HCL itself doesn't react with steel; it only attacks rust so I think something else happened involving the breakdown of the HCL fumes. I'm no chemist but wonder if the chlorine dissociated from the HCL and formed FeCl3?
Oh no the wings, that sux Doug so sorry. That is one of my favorite pieces. That's crazy I've never saw that happen. Thanks for the info I'll remember this tip.*Chris*
Yeah it does suck but sometimes we have to re-learn lessons learned before haha...on a positive note though, the back side of the wings now have a nice consistent rust that actually looks good.
Sorry to view it; that was a lot of work you did on those wings. Would like to see the finished project assuming you removed the rust. Thanks for sharing.
For me, it was a novice mistake as I knew the vapors could cause rust to the surrounding area but I was lazy and didn't fully clean the area where I was working. I never expected the vapors to get to the entire shop which is 1100 sq ft.
It was a nice little kick in the pants, however the back of the wings rusted consistently and actually finishes it nicely so I'll take that and just put a little elbow grease on the front.
There is a show in Scottsdale I thought of trying to get into however I just can't sit at a booth for 10 weeks without getting work done in the shop so they'll probably just stay in the shop for a while
I appreciate you taking the time to make a video and admitting to your mistakes. It could really help someone in the future. Someone else may have given up thinking they weren't cut out for it or good enough to create things like that. But seeing that other people may make the same mistake will help them continue with whatever they're pursuing.
Thank you for sharing your awesomeness and also the things NOT to do!
Thank you very much Doni
Thank you for the PSA, I could see myself in the same situation!
This is just a quick tip, mill scals is a biproduct of hotrolling steel. So if you got 11 gauge sheet cold rolled it wouldn't have mill scale, and then you don't have to polish the scale off.
On occasion I'll use the cold rolled however the desk I often sell is sold with the mill scale as the finish as opposed to adding an additional patina which is what led to this disaster. I made a poor attempt at trying to match the mill scale with a dark patina...failed and so ended removing mill scale with the acid...another fail but a delayed fail either not something I want to repeat
Thank you for the information. Very good to be able to learn from your mistakes.
Glad it was helpful!
I can imagine how surprising and shocking this discovery was... omg, how much work this caused. Thank you for this video!
Yeah it was a huge OH NO! moment for sure.
Your are not the only one who did this. I’m restoring a triumph tr6, used some muratic acid to clean off some rust, forgot to put acid back in container, came back a day or two later and noticed some of my nice metal shaping tools now had a nice coat of rust! We should start of club. The “things not to do” club. Haha. Thanks for video, wings look great, especially the polished ones.
Thank you for this knowledge . The lessons we learn the best, are the ones that cost us the most.
Absolutely!
I have been welding for a long time (1985) and I never knew this. it is not a rookie mistake THANK-YOU-for sharing what happens when the humidity, airflow, or lack of it, and temperature make a perfect storm.
it was a valuable lesson, I won't make again
Wow beautiful work, very sorry that happened to you brother. I also appreciate your great attitude that you didn't let it bring you down.
live and learn. Mistakes happen just keep moving forward :)
Great videos and gorgeous work. Thanks!
Thanks Jina
WOW! I got educated on a good tip to do with using Muriatic Acid. Thanks! I'll be using Muriatic Acid on my headers, and I'll be sure to take serious steps to use it!
Thanks for the precious advice
It aggravates me that people write " read the label" like he didn't know. He dose know, and like every single person reading this made a mistake. The humility to put this up so we can learn from his mistake rather than to do likewise, is generous. The mistake was being in a hurry. The reason why I left paint in a bucket to dry. Small things, but what if they had a dog there? Or what if it was lacquer and they had a gas stove (Pilate light).
I agree. The first words he said were "I made a huge novice mistake".
Live and learn...if it's something you have to learn all over again haha :D
How does something that cleans rust create rust?
Right! That question use to keep me up at night. And sadly I still don't have the answer
Thank you sir for explaining this issue!
My pleasure, thanks for watching
I had no idea. Wow and thanks.
Wow, I‘m so sorry, I feel for you!!! Thanks a lot for sharing this!! I just used some the other day and did not know this.
Thank you - Subscribed now. I really appreciate your sharing your work and tips. Cheers
Thanks for watching and the sub!
@@ArtfullyRogue I was really taken by the Angel wings. On one hand the 2 halves make for a stark contrast. But I know from autobody work, the hours that go into getting it just right. Then... It was not the intent.
thanks for the advice and as my old man told me "learn from others mistakes, you don't have time to do all of them your self" ;)
That is so spot on. Now if I can just get my daughter to understand that concept haha
Holy shit!!!!! I had no idea! Thanks for the heads up man.
hope it helps
Thanks for posting this , This was for me great information , I had no idea the fumes hung around like that , Potentially life saving information .
Its all about live, learn and share it
Thanks for sharing its appreciated.
those wings are stunning!!
Thank you!! I'm really proud of them and I love having them hang in my shop. It reminds me that anything is possible if you try.
I already happened to my wood shop, which was an Amish weld shop. It was a concrete floor and a tin roof ceiling with cement block walls. I covered the tin ceiling, insulated the walls and covered them with OSB board, painted the walls. I put a layer of plastic on the cement floor, lathed it out and put in a plywood floor and varnished it. After nearly 30 years, my tools still developed a fine film of rust. So most every time I use a plane or chisel I have to clean the rust. I built cabinets for my tools a few years ago rather than having them conveniently hanging on a tool board. I live in the woods so it is far worse in the summer with humidity here in south eastern Pa. A dehumidifier is going to be purchased soon. I also do some metal work, welding and sculpting. I could never understand why this was happening and my previous home my shop never created such a rusty mess. So now I know and I Thank You kindly. So all this covering up, 30 years ago, painting and moisture barriers and still, traces of muriatic acid. Perhaps I should fill my shop with baking soda for the summer,,,,,,,might foam up though. Sorry for all the extra work you will have to endure. I have spent many hours with steel wool and wire wheels cleaning, which has become part of my summer fair for years. The good thing is that my molding planes sit on the shelf with the cutting edges down and don't rust,,,,,,except for just a little of the cutting edge. So lots of sharpening stones used as well. Mystery solved for me. I feel your pain Brother, believe me! Here's to a fast and speedy and efficient cleaning of wings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Sounds like you have amazing shop!
This happened to me with some humidifier lime scale cleaner that I used to clean the rust off a gong. Worked like a charm. I even washed everything off. But I left the acid-soaked rags in the open garbage in the kitchen. I woke up to russssst all over the place.
Ouch, it's not the kind of surprise you want when you walk back into your shop for sure
Oh man !!!!! So sorry, thanks for sharing
Sadly we live and learn. Hopefully it will help someone else from not making the same mistake.
I like to use gun bluing fallowed up
With wire wheel polishing to get the black luster... The level of initial polish before treatment will determine if the bluing looks brushed or mirrored...
I just had to use fine sandpaper and scuff pads to clean rust off my table saw table, mill, and bandsaw because I used an open container to remove mill scale and zinc from some parts I want to weld.
Yep, that stuff can screw up a shop quick
I did the same thing except the shuff in my garage was mostly just scrap for forging but i did have some finished knives and tools that got real rusted from leaving it open.
yeah it sucks for sure
4:31 WOOOAH, I had no idea that could happen just from the fumes, that right wing is crazy, I kinda like the effect though.
Very useful information regarding the impact on metal items from just the fumes from Muratic acid. I also learned this the hard way after placing a tightly sealed one gallon jug of muratic acid in a metal cabinet only to open it a week later to find a rusty interior of the cabinet and rust on the power tools stored inside. Best to use in a very well ventilated space or best outdoors and store the jug of muratic acid in a secondary container outside and away from anything metal.
Yep it can be a tough lesson but one you'll never forget
I did same thing in my kitchen. Have a stainless steel stove and microwave that I need to restore the finish....any idea
Still kind of working on a solution for stainless
Sorry to see the mess. Wow Thanks for the tip.
i had stainless steel pdr picks in a plastic box in the back of my truck in the summer. there was a bottle of windex in there that leaked. my tools were completely rusted. i had to wire wheel them and wax coat them.
yeah there's nothing good about it
Wings still look amazing with the contrast!
Thanks!
No dont start over that looks killer, Call it Sad wings of destiny, Good & Evil Prevails!! Awesome look!!
Sorry for the late response. Sadly the wings have gone to the scrap pile but not before appearing at a sculpture show where people could take pictures of themselves in front of them. On the trailer ride back home, the wind was too much and they nearly "flew" away on the highway. They are in need of much repair.
Thank you . I've learned from your hardship
Man I'm so sorry about this. But thank you for sharing. I'm starting a project with muratic acid. You saved me from the same mistake.
Glad to help Jeff
Thank you very much.
You are welcome!
We use a diluted muriatic acid for tile cleaning. Someone used a heavy mixed on a restaurant kitchen floor after the stainless equipment was installed. They were careful about splashing but the fumes blackened some of the equipment.
Yeah not fun
How you seal them . with what?
Automotive clear coat
Wow...I feel for ya...beautiful work
Thanks Nancy, As they say, things happen for a reason. Hopefully this reason was so I could share with others so they don't have the same thing happen.
@@ArtfullyRogue believe me, I am taking all precautions! My washer, dryer, leaf blower, etc. are in here too!0
I had the same problem using Acetic acid in a large container removing heavy rust from old axes. Stupid mistake.
Lesson learned quick.
Lesson learned for sure
Yeah, those fumes are the worse, what is the best sealer for polished metal?
I'm not sure I know the best sealer but I know that I use a two automotive clear coat to seal my projects. The brand varies and I'm watching how they last long term
@@ArtfullyRogue i also use automotive clear coating, some times rust spots beggin to form underneath, i hate it when that happens, thanks for your tips
Happened to me too! Rusted all the raw parts of several machines overnight... The following couple of days was spent scotchbrighing and oiling! Nice desk.. I've done a couple similar ones and a 24 foot bar.. I now use phosphoric acid..
I keep meaning to try phosphoric acid...
my son and i were doing a project the muratic acid spilled on work bench . 5 days later every thing within 2 feet away was ruined with rust. many tools. keep your acid outside at all times.
yeah its a hard lesson to learn for sure
It's not mill scale,it's some form of fish oil as a rust inhibitor.Mill scale is just that-carbonized metal that remains after the milling process.
Yeah, that's what he's talking about. The dark mill scale. It's a pain to remove or grind off. Especially on thicker plate. Cold rolled has the oil. Hot rolled has the mill scale. If one does not want to remove the mill scale, buy cold rolled. I believe the cost may be a little higher though on some stuff.
Correct. The last thing a factory wants is a rusty surface going through a rolling mill because it abrades to surface of the pinch rollers. Sheets are pickled in HCL or nitric to remove rust between rollings.
Done it myself! It's especially brutal on anything galvanized. It's really aggressive on zinc. We had a gallon on a shelf against a corrugated steel wall and the cap wasn't 100% tight, and after a few weeks, the wall had a dark tornado looking stain starting just above the top of the jug that went clear up the wall to the ceiling 10' above it. Guess where it rusted after that. All my chisels, punches, files dopping tools and drill bits got rusty...anything high carbon took it right in the nuts. All acid projects are now done in open air, and the acid is stored outside until winter, then it gets stored in the basement and is double bagged inside a big ziplock bag.
Yeah its a nightmare. Sounds like you are taking no more chances.
Sorry for your losses. 😫
Thanks for passing on the information. I'm sure it will help many..!
Would a sandblasting help clean up the piece?
Love your work. I am not a metal worker, but some of the work you have demonstrated, motivated me to do some metal rusting for effect in my small brewery. I have a drop ceiling where I replaced the tiles with rusted corrugated using the muriatic + copper sulfate trick you demo'd. This I did outdoors. Looks great! Next, I have old galvanized metal bar tops. I experimented with a small side table where I rusted then sealed the top and it looks amazing. But, this I had to do indoors, so for the short period of time, I noticed a bit of surface rusting on a other metal surfaces, nearby. So, now, I am going to run all the ventilation and fans, open every door and roll-up and plastic cover every important surface before I start. Have you continued to use this technique indoors and found ways to avoid unwanted rusting?
After you get the desired look, if possible rinse off the surface, let dry and seal with either a spray lacquer or in your case where it will probably get a lot of use, I would do a paint on or pour on laquer to seal it and cut off the oxygen which keeps the process active.
@@ArtfullyRogue Yep, I think I found a decent product that, so far, seems to do the job of sealing. I have only sealed surfaces that have rusted a week or so. But, I sure love some of the intriguing colors that surface early after adding the copper sulfate. I tried capturing a few early, but rinsing washes away too much of the patina at that stage. And, if leave the muratic and copper sulfate, while I do get some great looking results, there appears to be some salt-like leaching that can occur under the surface, adding some white blotching to the result. Anyway, thanks for all your videos. Our brewery may reach out to you, soon, about adding some of those kick ass doors in our brewery after we get rolling and get a few dollars in.
Ive been doing electro plating in my garage, i used muriatic acid to descale the metal etc, i had left the container on my work bench and about two days later my soldering iron, rolls of solder, everything in my garage was rusty this explains it. Thanks for the video.
i feel stupid now😂
it happens to the best of us. Sometimes we know better but just forget what it can do
In the future dustless blasting would work like a charm, and capping your acid before you jump ship lol hope you were able to save that piece it’s beautiful!!
I'll have to check out dustless blasting for sure. Closing up the acid has been a double check I do every day I leave the shop even if I didn't use it that day :)
Look at the company Texas green blast. It’s a mixture is fine particles and high blast of water that doesn’t leave a cloud and requires less cleanup. In your trade it would be invaluable ;)
Thanks for the heads up, sorry for you're pieces!
Ah well, you live and learn.
If you live in a place with high humidity that can experience temperature swings you will eventually run into an instance where it is cold for a long while making everything in your shop cold followed by a warm humid breeze passing through and that situation will result in condensation on every metal surface and flash rust setting in on anything not protected.
I set up this exact situation in my shop sometimes to accelerate patina rust formation on old car body panels and other objects where that look is desirable.
Thanks for posting WHAT NOT TO DO WITH this dangerous chem. If I ever use it, it will be kept outside and used outside. Great wings! Super artistry.....
I had a jug of muriatic acid with the cap ON rust everything within 6 feet, a barstool, a cherry picker ram, some yard tools.... ruined in a few weeks just by being close to the sealed jug of acid nearby.
It's crazy stuff for sure
It gives the wings a pretty cool contrast if you ask me, polished angel side and rusted demon side.
Jesus is Salvation thats a very interesting perception, i hadnt really thought about that👍
I felt the same way the instant I saw it. I really like the look of it.
Completely agreed!! I thought he was going to explain how the muriatic acid gave him a new piece of art for the show...the surprisingly, unexpected beauty of how artistic pieces get completed that truly makes them unique!
Angel wings are WHITE
@@timthomas9105 racist
Great infor...Thanks
If you want to give raw sheet steel that black patina, mill scale look, then you can use phosphoric acid. This will turn that brown rust black. I've used Klean strip metal and concrete prep for this - it works very well since it contains a surfactant it is easy to wipe on and off, and is about a 30% or more concentrate. It's not nearly as agressive as HCL, and in a solutions with a surfactant, it is less likely to evaporate quickly.
Thanks for the info James
Wow good info to know! Im about to etch some aluninum using muriatic acid and peroxide. Sorry that happened to you
lesson learned for sure
Great tip, thank you
Thanks for watching Luke!
Daaaamn. That's too bad man. I was just using muriatic acid the other day. I'm sorry you had to make this video, but I'm glad you told us
Lesson learned for sure :)
I just had this happen and figured out the problem before this video. Thanks for sharing, 8 hours late for me and now I am cleaning woodworking tools.
I know that pain. I'm having a terrible time coping with what it did to my little Studio shop. Its like being kicked in the gut, i get sick just thinking about it. I'm sorry to hear anyone else went through it.
we live and learn. Share what we learn hoping to help others. Sorry it happened to you as well
How can you stop the rust once you have done this? It's been 3 years and everything in my shop still rusts. I cleaned the millscal off of 4 -5*10 welding tables at different times. I would spray it on my tables and leave on for over night sometimes after using a whole gallon. And to top it all off I live in Washington the pacific northwest. I don't even shut my shop doors anymore because everything rust regardless. Help
Fighting rust is an uphill battle. With the wings, I gave up and just powder coated them. Other than keeping everything covered in an oil or some kind of spray on clear coat, I'm not sure eliminate it totally. You have it extra hard being on the coast with so much moisture already in the air.
Can liquid chlorine do the same or is it only MA that does this?
I haven't used chlorine in my shop but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to set up a test environment to try it out.
Thanks for the advice, but man, I feel for you! I bet you let a few expletives fly when you got back to the shop!
haha yeah...just a few
Thanks dude! Putting all of my solutions outside for now I used Klean GREEN which says 90% less fumes, but still don’t trust it. I’m getting steel down to bare metal then polishing, what do you recommend the best product is to seal/protect it? Thanks!
Glad I could help! Penetrol is a good brush on product and I also use Deft which is a spray on product
Same thing with me but I just left the cap off the jug, been polishing and sanding rust for weeks
Yeah it sucks for sure
Why didn't you use ferric chloride to get the black patina?
Good question...probably because I had no idea what ferric chloride is :) but thanks I'll check it out for sure
It helps give a blackened finish to normal carbon steel. It is used to give damascus steel especially in knives a nice pop between the carbon and nickel steel.
I think it'd would be awesome on some things you've made, especially those wings in the background!
Great tip! I work with an arrogant tinsmith occasionally. I've been looking for a way to mess with him. I would never have thought of this in a million years. Actually I wouldn't. But knowing you could ....
Thats sinister but a good way to mess with any metal worker for sure
Very interesting. I've seen a few videos of people using muriatic acid to remove mill scale but no one mentions this. I always need to remove mill scale before welding with my everlast flux core welder.
Yeah it's crazy that it also removes rust. Same thing with vinegar. It also removes rust but I use it on a regular basis to actually rust metal
I left a bowl out one day as i was cleaning some copper and it ruined all my tools almost , rusted every thing in a few days
it's amazing stuff for sure. And if the fumes along rust metal, you have to wonder how the lungs are affected...I wear a mask now anytime I work with it
You should check out Acid Magic Doug. Makes awesome patinas and its user friendly. Ive been using itvfor tye past 2 weeks and this stuff is just as powerful as boric acid. Designed for septic tanks.
I did the exact same thing, rusted my tools and all my steel used for projects. To fix I soaked tools (that could be soaked) in vinegar over night, wiped off with fine steel wool. Rinsed in solution of baking soda and water (to neutralize the vinegar) then rinsed with water. To seal the steel I then sprayed it with WD40 which leaves a finish that won't rust. Lesson learned.
Life is about learning...I won't let that happen again :)
Thanks. I'm starting to stripp some floor panels . WD40 will do the sealing!
Hello, can you tell me what kind of seal you used please?? Ohhh and wings look awesome
Depends on the project but usually a spray on clear coat from Deft
Does phosphoric acid do this too?
Not really sure Frankie
It doesnt i tested it out
I think it looks cool as a two tone.
It was pretty cool but just not what I had planned at the time however it's a cool look for sure
NICE PAGE !!! here is and old trick I use when the mill scale is bad............20 bucks a can, smells like hell, but gives a real nice finish, PS I don't know if it's good in the sun, but I have used this stuff for years inside, I love it
What is the name of the stuff you use?
@@ArtfullyRogue sorry about that !!! I forgot to send the link.............here it is www.semproducts.com/product/self-etching-primer/39673
OMG...I love those wings...so sorry that happened to you...i know you put alot of time into those.
Thanks JDavid! yeah man it was a bit of a gut punch however it was a good learning experience
It helps if you read the labels on the container.
And honestly the dark wing tarnish make it look more legendary.
Cool Thanks UFO
I learned this decades ago when I was in the floor coatings business. Before the advent of mechanically prepping concrete, the preferred method was acid etching. We were doing an auto shop facility at a local school. Without really thinking about it, we etched the floor and proceeded to rust all of the hydraulic lift posts. LUCKILY, it was only cosmetic, and we were able to clean them. But initially, it was horrifying. Lesson learned.
Years ago when we etched the concrete with muriatic acid before tiling we used to put vaseline on any metal in the room to protect it from the acid. Worked well.
I’m a knife maker and I put a billet if Damascus in a tub of muriatic acid. Took it out the next day. Totally forgot bout the tub. Went back to my shop a week later. Drill bits, drill press, knives, knives steel, yep, everything rusted. 😬
I manufacture this stuff daily and man the fumes irritate skin when hot out. Long summer ahead....ouch....
mate that is such a shame - I would be gutted. How did your tools handle it?
many of my tools get that same layer of rust however as I use them I give them a quick buffing and they shine right up, so luckily its only a surface rust
Some age away through a plastic container in my shed.....and same thing. All my tools. Anything with metal....rusted lol....
yeah it'll drive you crazy if you don't know the reason
I was just going to use it tomorrow.... thank you!!! Sorry for your lesson.
Man, I feel for you dude.
Yeah, it did suck but I learned a valuable lesson. And ironically I'm actually getting the wings ready for their first sculpture expo
Wow, now vou have "The Good" and "The Bad" Angels watching your shop 🤣
So true 😁
Yes sir, once the mil scale or cladding as we refer to it, is scuffed all you can do is remove the clad and then treat w muriatic acid or salted vinegar, to blacken the steel
I learned my lesson hearing about a dude in metal work class who was grinding some job, then the instructors pulled him aside to warn him that the metal he was grinding gave off mutagenic and poisonous fumes at high temperatures. Since then I ventilate and assume everything is potentially going to rot my property or my body. I feel your pain though dude.
For the record its nice to see someone leave mill scale on metal work. Scandinavian knife makers leave it on because its practical.
Yeah I wish had wore more ppe earlier in my life. It's second nature now
I doubt it. HCL itself doesn't react with steel; it only attacks rust so I think something else happened involving the breakdown of the HCL fumes. I'm no chemist but wonder if the chlorine dissociated from the HCL and formed FeCl3?
Hmm good question. I just assumed since I used only used muriatic acid that that was the issue
buruuuuuuuhhh, those wings still look magnificent though
thank you very much
Oh no the wings, that sux Doug so sorry. That is one of my favorite pieces. That's crazy I've never saw that happen. Thanks for the info I'll remember this tip.*Chris*
Yeah it does suck but sometimes we have to re-learn lessons learned before haha...on a positive note though, the back side of the wings now have a nice consistent rust that actually looks good.
Sorry to view it; that was a lot of work you did on those wings. Would like to see the finished project assuming you removed the rust. Thanks for sharing.
Actually I ended up having the wings powder coated white
Strange... Thought this removed rust (direct contact)? Guess vapor just ate through enough to leave it more exposed?
For me, it was a novice mistake as I knew the vapors could cause rust to the surrounding area but I was lazy and didn't fully clean the area where I was working. I never expected the vapors to get to the entire shop which is 1100 sq ft.
Thank you for the chemistry lesson but so sorry it had to come at the cost of those beautiful wings!
It was a nice little kick in the pants, however the back of the wings rusted consistently and actually finishes it nicely so I'll take that and just put a little elbow grease on the front.
Are these going to be in a show in Scottdale in the future? I would love to see them!
There is a show in Scottsdale I thought of trying to get into however I just can't sit at a booth for 10 weeks without getting work done in the shop so they'll probably just stay in the shop for a while
@@ArtfullyRogue That's why you need an art student intern! LOL
Hmmm that sounds like a possibility :)
Good video to have out there.
Thanks Nicholas