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thiourea and sulfamic acid? Two good suspects for the Evaporust secret recipe. Edit: /salute from another 'technically homeless' guy living at work. This economy sucks.
Youre not homeless! Homeless guys have nasty beards, youre just a pair of Adam's Family extra's & a disembodied voice - your "home" could just be a pair of gloves! 😉
I tried this method to de-rust the rear end of my car in a large tub (didn't want to buy $600 worth of evaporust). What I found was that after soaking for a day, there was no visible difference--but I did notice I could more easily scratch rust off with my fingernail. So I decided to try taking it out and power washing it. Except for the very heaviest rust spots, the rust just washed away like dirt! It was miraculous! Hope that helps someone. Many thanks to ElementalMaker.
I de rusted body panels on my car by using Hydrochloric Acid, and ordinary sand (as the scrubber). Wearing safety gloves, I soaked a rag with hydrochloric acid, then dipped this in dry sand, and started to scrub away. This really worked for me, and then I rinsed with plain water, because the rusting is immediate. Then treated the scrubbed surface with a Phosporic Acid. Washed this off the next day, and primed the bodywork with paint. Obviously, you must not breathe the Hydrochloric Acid Fumes, so please wear the appropriate Mask.
That is what I used to do too. But, the evaporust seems to keep the part from rusting after rinsing a little better - especially things like gas tanks. Also, some items I use zinc-chromate primer, and that keeps the metal from rerusting. @@peterduxbury927
I've never tried Evaporust myself, but I love trying to solve puzzle videos like this. My quick analysis is that the green color is an important clue. It's showing that there is iron in solution, but it's starved for oxygen. You can test this by taking some of the green liquid and putting a little hydrogen peroxide in it, and seeing if it flashes to brown. If it does, but then turns green again, then there is another layer of buffering. To make your version better (I know it's already cheap as is, but better is better), it needs something to deplete the oxygen in the partially-used solution. The green iron oxidation state means it is ready to steal oxygen from rust, but the new fluid is supposedly clear to yellowish, so it must start with a first layer of oxygen remover to preserve it until initial uses, and to verify its freshness upon receipt. Based on the assumption that one of the ingredients is ferrous hydroxide, which is clear, but turns green when contaminated by oxygen, but you're assuming it contains soap, and watching a video of new liquid being poured... I suspect that one of the pH/oxygen buffers is glycerine. You stated that it smelled a little like burned sugar too, and the MSDS says it's pretty much harmless to everything. I therefore suspect that the ingredients include ferrous hydroxide, from ferrous sulfate and sodium hydroxide, and glycerine, which may smell sweet in a chemical reaction, but will form a useful soap with the excess hydroxide, while helping to buffer the pH, along with something like citric acid to get the pH down enough without using an excess of glycerine.
@@pappaflammyboi5799 That makes sense. It would occupy dissolved rust and keep it from doing much chemically. Those kind of things would be behind making the solution last over multiple uses.
Hey Buck, have a look at what I have just posted and let us know what you think. I found and downloaded a US Military spec. "Corrosion Removing Compound, Sodium Hydroxide Base; For Electrolytic Or Immersion Application" They state also "without causing material change in the dimensional characteristics of the treated article." Hydroxide conc. is pretty low.
I found some patents for rust removers that use sodium EDTA and thiourea dioxide. Thiourea dioxide is a relatively stable reducing agent that (apparently) assists in converting rust to a more-soluble form. As can be deduced from its name, it contains sulfur. A paper by some Japanese researchers indicated that the best rust removal is obtained when the solution pH is close to neutral. Thiourea dioxide is used in the textile industry so should be readily available. An alternative to it might be sodium bisulfite. This also according to the Japanese research.
Saw something like this on a different channel. (can't remember which one) but he had a similar approach and his solution was AWESOME! I keep it in my notes app. I'll paste it below here if you want to try it. You take 1 liter of water, 100 grams of citric acid, 40 grams of sodium carbonate (washing soda), and add an arbitrary amount of liquid dish soap. Mix together (Rust removal solution Is reusable)
NO thank god!!!! lol i love that channel but the speaking or lines or whatever u call the style he delivers he lines is soo distracting n hard to listen to, it would absolutely b one of my favorite channels if it wasnt for that, i guess it just seems kinda lazy with just reading off cards with no context its messes up the flow of the video n again is distracting. hell have cards or points written on stuff he wants to cover in the video but he reads them verbatim, like "evaporust is a great product. i use evaporust any chance i get. Evaporust wont damage the metal. Evaporust also hurt your skin and evaporust is non toxic" after a few times u can just say it!!!! lol that drives me so crazy i cant even watch the videos lol i write and its just lazy writing, u need to combine your thoughts at the end and let them flow without repetition or youll bore the reader
Mass Spec Everything has confirmed Evaporust's chelating agent is Triethanolamine. It also has aluminum sulphate in it. The sulphur helps self recharge the chelating action. I wonder if adding that to the EDTA solution would improve it's performance.
Interesting! Did you run the mass spec yourself? Per an old German msds sheet, the main listed ingredient was diammonium polyphosphonate with a small added amount of sodium oleum sulphonate to, but I could never find a source for the diammonium polyphosphonate. If it really is triethanolamine that's great news! Way more easy to source. Thank you very much for this info, I will definitely try it!
@@ElementalMaker do you have an inexpensive source of triethanolamine? I've been looking and seem like I could make generic Evaporust for maybe 1/2 what it costs, but it's not nearly as inexpensive as your EDTA solution.
A small nitpick: Citric acid is not a "buffer" and you are not "buffering" the solution back to neutral. It is just an acid, and you are adjusting the pH back to a neutral value using an appropriate amount of the acid. A buffer is actually something different. A buffer contains a balance of particular chemicals which work together in such a way that they _maintain and resist changes to_ a particular pH level _even when other acids or bases are added._ That is, buffers will not change their pH even if you add acids or bases to them (up to the limit of their buffering capacity). None of the stuff you are using here is actually a pH buffer in the standard chemistry sense...
@@suprememasteroftheuniverse "Adjusting the pH to a neutral value" is _literally the definition_ of what "neutralizing" means (in this context). Just because you chose to use different terms which mean exactly the same thing does not make anything I said actually wrong.
If you have any EDTA left over after you are done, remember to keep it handy in case of vampire attack. It explodes on contact with vampire blood. (source: "Blade" 1998)
*I use this in a large bath to repurpose large rusted parts (radiators, compressors, transmissions etc etc) and have found that agitation is key to reducing the times.* If I can I simply place large totes inside my work vehicles, and the vibrations do all the work. But if the parts are too big, then I use a solar bubbler to keep the fluid moving. A "wiffle ball" is great for tumbling around and knocking into objects gently enough to work times down significantly. I just finished a car radiator and a HVAC evaporator in 3 hours. Shine like they are brand new!
For the last 50 years or so, I have been using a solution of approx. 15 to 1 water to molasses to remove rust ! It takes a while, (a week or two) but it is the least expensive and most effective and safest method I know of !
Interesting that EvapoRust smells sweet and you've found molasses capable of removing rust. Maybe adding a surfactant to your molasses solution would help speed it up a bit? I *think* (I could be wrong on this) that molasses also contains a bit of sulfur, too.
It destroys alloys and certain other metals. I use molasses and then after washing, dip it in phosphoric acid to give a protective coating until ready to paint.
@ElementalMaker: I used to work in a cheese factory where we used citric acid to remove rust stains from the concrete floors. We just sprinkled granulated citric acid on the stains and got them damp with a hose. After about 5 minutes we''d hose it off and the stains would wash away. I always wondered why it seemed to pull the rust out of the concrete. It being a chelating agent makes it obvious why. Thanks for this video.
In New Zealand Evaporust is $85.00NZD for 5 liters, $54.00USD for 1.3 gallons. I found it very hard to find a company that sells EDTA to the public But I will keep trying because I am eager to try your solution (No pun intended). Thanks for the information.
So I have been obsessed with cloning evaporust for a while and this video pushed me to get started. I have been working and tweaking and finally came up with something that I think gets as close you can to the original formula while still being cheap and easy to get ingredients. Total cost is about $5.35/gal The rustlick has the benefit of also helping prevent flash rusting when you remove the parts from solution just like evaporust. To make ~4L (approx 1 gal) 4L liters water (ideally distilled or R/O water) 200g EDTA 4NA 200ml Rustlick B (73011) ~30 ml sulfuric acid drain cleaner to buffer to approx 7pH ******* Use eye protection, gloves, all the usual gear when working with strong acids/bases******** Dissolve water and EDTA until completely dissolved then mix in the Rustlick B Add the sulfuric acid slowly, I would suggest adding 15ml at first, take a pH reading and then add 5ml at time until you hit the mark. You can use another acid to buffer such as citric acid but the sulfur is supposed to be beneficial.
if you are still interested: the european SDS of evaporust lists "Diammonium Phosphonatbuilder" and "Natriumpetroleumsulfonat" as the additional ingredients. No clue if it's the same mixture as overseas tho. See: kunden.tda.at/pumpkin/images/news/Sicherheitsdatenblatt_Evapo-Rust.pdf
@@ChriFux Translated from German to English it says: Composition / information on ingredients - Substances / mixtures: List of ingredients according to CLP (EC) Regulation No. 1272/2008 CAS component EC no: water 70-90%, diammonium phosphonate builder 2-12 %, Sodium Petroleum Sulfonate 3-10% Diammonium phosphate is one of a series of water-soluble ammonium phosphate salts that can be produced when ammonia reacts with phosphoric acid. Sodium Petroleum Sulphonate may be used at concentrations of 10% to 22% by weight in selected industrial and metalworking applications. Sodium sulfonates have had a long history of use in metalworking fluids. It function as emulsifiers and corrosion inhibitors.
@@AEON. - only the fancy beers... Just bought a 5 litre container for $A70, on special. $A425 for a 5kilo concentrated form that makes 30 litres (about 7.5 US gallons). Since Tetrasodium EDTA is about $25/kg, this is so much cheaper. Now to buy a small plunge pool and a crane...
Dear god, that's insane! I see a business opportunity. Start getting people to carry a couple liters in their checked luggage when they go to visit and we've got ourselves a nice little racket! Is that $100 in Australian monopoly money or American dollars?
Apparently it contains water, a chelating agent, and a detergent. The FAQ says that "once the chelating agent has removed the iron, a sulfur bearing organic molecule pulls the iron away from the chelator and forms a ferric sulfate complex which remains water soluble. This frees the chelating agent to remove more iron from rust." So the chelating agent isn't the one that has the sulfur atom - it's probably the detergent.
Having a lot of chelating power in solution increases the effective solubility of Fe3+ ions. There is no oxidizer in solution, O2 will not be bubbling out, the oxygen in Fe2O3 (real rust is not exactly that, but that does not mater for this point) will go into solution as oxide ions (O with 2- charge) and that immediately rips off a proton from a water molecule, forming two hydroxide ions. So the solution will get more basic as you dissolve more rust. But due to the low amount of rust its probably not noticeable.
Here in Aus, a gallon (actually 5 litres) costs at least $60, and most places are asking $90, so it is expensive here. I had a look at the MSDS for evaporust, and it appears to be 15-20% sodium bisulfate (metabisulfate in solution), 80% water and a small amount of a surfactant. A DIY version would be 150-200g sodium metabisulfate, 800ml water and a couple of drops of dish soap.
Apparently sodium bisulfate is a strong acid used as a buffering agent. If you don't have a alkaline solution already, sodium bisulfate will make your solution very acidic. Do you know of a base used on evaporust to take the acid or vice/versa?
Metabisulfate doesn't exist, you are confusing with metabisulfite, used in homebrewing. Sodium bisulfite NaHSO3 only exists in solution (Na+ HSO3- aq.), it precipitates as sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5. But that is unrelated to this process, which used sodium bisulfate NaHSO4, which does exist as a solid. It is basically partially neutralised sulfuric acid H2SO4, and still pretty damn acidic.
Thats interesting litres here in NZ 5 litres cost me NZD 50 at $10 a litre its cheaper than any other rust converter available. Including the CRC tantic acid based converter.
@@1978garfield I can't get my hands on any Evaorust to read the Haz or Active ingredients, but "I Have" OJT for Passivation in pharma, aero, electronics, and industrial. short of this my "go to" is Citric acid(vitimin C) @ about 180f after cleaning solvent of TSP at same temp for iron oxide rust removal.
In Australia they have to make the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) readily available to everyone. The MSDS for Evaporust indicates the active ingredient is Sodium Bi-Sulphate at 3% concentration (also known as Sodium Acid Sulphate or NaHSO4). NaHSO4 is commonly used as a pH decreaser for spas and dissolved in water would be an acidic solution, requiring buffering but perhaps Evaporust is just a mix of 3% Sodium Bi-Sulphate and a small amount of Tetra Sodium EDTA? May be worth another experiment?
@@theaussienurseflipper.8113 Everything is made of chemicals. Coke is a food product and as such must have all the ingredients (ie. chemicals) listed on the label and in some countries it will also need an MSDS. The label indicates that Coke contains Food Acid 338 which is phosphoric acid, very definitely considered a "chemical" by the government. Phosphoric acid (and to some extent the dissolved carbon dioxide) is what gives Coke it's slightly prickly (ie. acidic) feel. Phosphoric acid is a key ingredient in a number of commercial rust converter solutions and this is why people will say that Coke can be used to remove rust but it isn't very effective because the concentration is low.
We must consider the temperature in the evaluation. Vinegar can go from just sitting there like water to visible bubbling just by placing the container in the sun or other warming. Probably goes for the other rust removers as well. Also degreasing is so important, as the chems must reach the rust. And wire brushing away thick rust first saves time and the acid doesn't get used up as fast.
I was wondering the same thing about temperature. I had a piece of aluminum that I had broken a steel tap off in while trying to tap a thread. I had read that soaking it in a solution of alum would dissolve the broken tap. Nothing much seemed to happen until I heated the solution and then it worked amazingly quickly.
When I use Evaporust, I definitely heat the solution (not too hot to touch) first and will continue to reheat it often. There is a dramatic difference between room temp (70-75°F) and warm solution. Warm/hot solution works much faster. Of course, this is true for most chemical reactions.
I've used phosphoric acid as a rust removal agent for decades. There are certain grades of steel that it attacks, including most springs. The application where I liked it best was in restoring old motorcycle and classic car gas tanks. I also had no qualms about using it on cast iron. The big challenge is that finding a surfactant to improve the wetting of the solution is not easy; acid-stable candidates can be had in the industrial chemical market, but usually you have to buy them in unrealistic quantities. (I did that in the past, and ran out of what I had about a decade back.)
Am i the only person who just breaks off tiny little pieces of ph paper rather than using whole strips? Its quite cost effective. Also. A great rust solution is sodium sulfate, i usually have ALOT in my boiling flask from the fuming nitric acid distillation process. Its usually a big rick hard mass at the bottom that requires using water to dissolve it in order to remove it. Put it in a bucket and add in your rusty steel.. it makes hardened high carbon steel look very nice.. and if antool or blade is differentially hardened then you can see a really great contrasting demarkation between soft and hard steel. Really cool.
When I needed to clean out an old motorcycle gas tank phosphoric acid in the form of Milk Stone Remover was recommended. After seeing the price of almost $30gal I considered other sources. While drinking a cold coca cola I read the ingredients and, lo and behold, there it was. The old tank was plugged and topped off with a couple 2ltrs of coke. A week later the tank was clean and free of gas smell. I proceeded to safely weld the pin holes without blowing myself up. BTW works well with aluminum tanks also.
For small parts, I have found that a warm solution of citric acid(as shown here, approx 80-100F, if you want warmer, best to test) in an ultrasonic tank works very well, and the ultrasonic motion helps to agitate the loose particulate away from the parts. Of course, using a proper dilution is helpful. But its insanely cheap, can be dumped on the backyard garden/grass without issue, unlike heavier chemicals. Plus, citric acid is cheap cheap cheap. R/O water from the local water store, my local also offers RO/DI. With an ultrasonic, make sure to use a secondary container to hold your working solution in the tank of water. I use the same process for cleaning parts with solvents, things like small engine carbs and parts when rebuilding engines. Ultrasonic really speeds up the time, plus using a heated/warm solution vs room temperature.
It's safe for your grass, but be careful around bushes: I spend way to much on chelated iron as a safe herbicide to take out various broadleaf weeds. Seems I should have been using citric acid/edta and junk parts the whole time!
Also, notice how the citric acid solution went a lot more yellowish-green instead of brown. That is due to base metal corrosion, the Fe3+ ions and the acidic environment together dissolve some Fe metal and form Fe2+ ions, which are green.
I've used Evaporust for years, tried a bunch of other stuff and by far is the best. Yeah I wish it was a bit more affordable. I'm usually doing small parts and have found a soaked paper towel around the part in a zip type plastic bag with the air pressed out is a good way to economize that stuff.
Another great test is to see if the rust removal product attacks zinc coated bolts, aluminium or chrome plated metals. Most acids do get rid of rust but also destroy other metals pretty fast.
I realize this is an older video. Thing I have to offer using vinegar is it woeks 10× better when it is hot! Not boiling, maybe coffee temp or slightly below. Changes its ability to remove rust dramatically. Not sure if the motility of the solution being hot/super warm is the key, but, works way better.
I've used plenty of phosphoric, and it doesn't clean rust off surfaces - it's great at converting what rust remains after you've cleaned a part up, leaving a finish similar to the Evaporust, but it's not really any good at getting the surface rust off in the first place.
Good job on trying for evaporust. On old radios what is used as well as evaporust is naval jelly. Use a tiny brush to put on the Naval jelly and it makes old rusty radio metal look new.
I put evaporust in my 1931 model A , filled the cooling system and left it for days . Some say they drive it around with it in there . It definitely gets some crud out !
@@jerrypeal653 ok so do you using a mix of you plan on still driving it or??? Sorry if the question is stupid I'm still trying to learn more about working on my own cars. ☺️
Thanks for doing this !!! I actually tried your experiment using Disodium EDTA and Citric Acid powders. I put a piece of lightly rusted 2x2 tubing that would sit inside the container I used and in about 9 hours the rust was all taken off. The steel tube was rusted more inside than out but it was also clean. I had no ph paper, so I guessed whether I was putting enough in of any of the two main content items. I used approximately one tbsp of the EDTA and perhaps just shy of 1/2 tsp of the Citric Acid in filtered water from a BRITA pitcher and about 10 drops of dish detergent as a surfactant. It worked better than I expected and I will try more in a larger container as I have a few old horseshoes to try it on that have been out in the weather for a few decades. I have used Evaporust for quite some time now but the price has gone astronomical for 5 gallons and this will help as an option.
If you can wait a week and want a 55 gallon tank, you can not beat molasses. Two gallons of molasses in 55 gallons of water turns the rust into a black silt that washes off under a tap. Get the molasses from an animal feed suppliers, people feed it to horses. It's about $11 a gallon although I think it is sold by weight so it's maybe 10lbs that looks about the size of a gallon. I have left stuff in for weeks and it forms some kind of a passivation layer that is resistant to rust flashing after the black silt is washed off.
Although I'm sure you're way past this experiment I just came across your video and appreciated the idea trying to replicate the evapo-rust formula. I use gallons of the stuff so I can actually personally benefit from trying to make it. Your mention of the somewhat sweet, sulfur smell in the original product made me think about possible additional ingredients which might account for that and actually balance the formula. They may actually be using either cane or beet molasses which has a relatively stable pH 5-7 or nuetral for beet molasses. And since they also promote the product as environmentally safe to handle this ingredient makes sense . What do you think?
I loved your video because I'm starting to restore to restore a 1996 Ford Ranger that's in pretty good shape for it's age,except for small areas on the engine compartment and mounting hardware! Your video was an answer from heaven. GREAT VIDEO I HOPE YOU KEEP MAKING MORE! Thank you.
From the Evaporust site: When finished, rinse item with water. If deep rust remains in pits, re-immerse item until all the rust is gone. Un-rusted metal will not be affected. *NOTE: This stage is VERY important in getting the best results*
I have tried many of these to remove rust over the last few decades including reverse electrolysis. Each has their pros and cons. Yes, Citric acid does a great job but as he stated... it WILL remove good metal too if you leave it in the solution too long. Just like vinegar. You really should neutralize the acid after (rinse or soak it with 1 cup baking soda to 1 gallon of water). Try citric acid or vinegar on a part you don't care about just to get an idea of what it might do if left too long. I accidentally left a part with a MIG welded joint in citric acid for over a week. The weld almost disappeared. It looked like a piece of wood that wood worms attacked. Way back when, racers would dip their car bodies in acids like vinegar or stronger to lighten them.
@@Joe.Doucette "I accidentally left a part with a MIG welded joint in citric acid for over a week. The weld almost disappeared. It looked like a piece of wood that wood worms attacked. " Yeah right. FOS.
Maybe the acids (vinegar and bare citric) would also benefit from some surfactant. My guess the "easy to peel" rust residues in the vinegar is actually a rust soaked in some grease, so not allowing sufficient penetration...
The citric acid sounds like it might be one of the best alternatives to evaporust just because of the accessibility. You can buy citric acid everywhere, so you don't have to order it.
I just found a very old and rusty roofing hatchet head. Citric Acid made it look almost media blasted. I do spray parts with silicone or Barricade because nothing rusts faster in the humidity than etched metal. Both products come off easy with brake cleaner when you want to add paint or urethane to parts.
Thank you for figuring this out and validating it! If the citric acid or vinegar don't seem to be getting to all the rust, perhaps adding some dish soap to those chemicals as well. Also, I've found that putting the container of solution in an ultrasonic machine filled with water speeds up the process significantly.
@@MichaelT-ft3cz 5% EDTA and then bring the Ph to near 7 with the tannic acid. I believe that was the ratio I found. It's been a while. Make a small test batch before you make 3,000 gallons....
It appears that the edta is a lot more expensive now. Any ideas which one I should go with that’s still reasonably priced I want to make sure I get the correct stuff. Any assistance would help
another YT channel says the home made he made works just as fast / faster than evaporust and lasts much longer (can be used 10 times more than evapo rust ) , but he added sodium bicarbonate to the citric acid and of course dish water soap to avoid metal etching
Hi I started using molasses and water 9:1 mix after watching an Australian fellow dipping an entire car in the stuff for rust removal. the stuff really works, much slower than Evaporust and the upside🤣 if you have some molasses left over you can make some cookies. Rich
Great video and result i know i am super late to the party , any ways i was browsing around and checking alternatives and found this recipe : Tetrasodium EDTA: 5% by weight Citric Acid: 1-2% by weight Sodium Metabisulfite: 1-2% by weight Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH): To adjust pH Water: Balance to 100% don't actually know if it works , would love to try this my self but cant get ahold of EDTA here where i live . if i understand it correctly the diferencie is the Sodium Metabisulfite that acts as a catalyst to let the EDTA work (like aqua regia solution) and the Sodium Hydroxide is mostly just for balance PH .
Cool, thanks. I live in Michigan and work on cars a lot so I know all about rust. I've also been amazed by the effectiveness of Evapo Rust. The price isn't terrible but it can add up if you need to buy a lot, I'll look into giving this a try next time I need to de-rust something big.
A comparison with oxalic acid would have been interesting, as it seems to have a good reputation for rust conversion. (Serendipity! I was _just_ looking for information on evapo-rust.) Very good, thank you.
Could not find a cheap source for the EDTA unless I bought a 55 lb bag. A one pound bag of EDTA from Ebay was $23/lb and a 55 lb bag was $7/lb. I bought the one pound bag and made two gallons. Didn't save a lot of money, but the stuff works and I have no complaints. It will be hard to tell if it is cheaper in the long way, because I don't have a good way to determine longevity. Thanks for the formula.
Yeah I'm bummed, the supplier I used in this video ran out of stock and so far hasn't gotten any more in. Every other source is pretty expensive as you noted. Glad it works well for you though!
A few commenters noted that the German sds actually lists the full ingredients. Unfortunately I can't obtain the main one outside of buying in metric tons from China. Big fan of your channel! Thanks for dropping a comment!
The sweet smell of the ER is ethylene glycol the wetting agent in it , also try oxalic acid next time and try it in your own concoction in place of the citric
@@kwaj177 Oxalic acid is superior to other acids for rust removal because it forms complexes with iron ions much better. The oxalic acid can pull the oxidized iron out of the rust and into solution where it can be washed away. Anyone who has seen a pale green color in the oxalic acid bath after soaking parts for a while has seen the iron-oxalate complex ([Fe(III)(C_2O_4)_3]^{3+}) in solution. Other chemicals will do this, including acetic and citric acids, but because of its structure oxalic acid is the optimal choice.
3y old vid so hoping this is seen, but since citric acid is cheap and does well, why not try buffering it back toward neutral? Perhaps add a bit of borax or some weak base? Ammonia might be nice too. Either would give some added cleaning power.
The abnormal component of the chelating agent used would be the high selectivity they claim, saying it "bonds to iron exclusively" this is not true for EDTA which has quite a strong affinity to zinc (just to pick one of many), One other odd component is that they say it has no effect on hematite.
I believe that Evaporust chelating agent is HEBD-CC not EDTA. It also contains TEOA. Most of the product is some kind of bark juice stabilized with sulfite. Basically bog water sold at 40$ per gallon.
There has to be some chelator simmilar to EDTA, if not it. But on top of that, it also contains a sulfur compund which reacts with iron bonded on chelator molecule. It can liberate used chelator molecule, making it reactive again. Sulfur molecule probably has to create some sort of iron complex in the reaction.
@@Joe-bm4wx Haven't found a english-speaking video but according to this one it works: th-cam.com/video/f2DUJl6cCqg/w-d-xo.html (he said that vinegar + salt in electrolysis is much better, but it has to be in a ventilated area and the object has to be submerged)
Ya but I don't want to be smelling vinegar for any amount of time but ya he said in the description about$0.75 a gallon you are going to pay that for distilled water so get a container big enough and should be good
Good thing about phosphoric acid is that it takes very short time.In about 5- 10 min it eats the rust away,it wont eat deep rust but if you use a wire wheel and reapply it ,its very fast.When it comes with a contact with rust it starts to bubble with a white foam.If you wash it with water it wont leave it thou.I buy it in a hardware store ,its sold in a 75% solution as a rust remover.I used to use a vinegar but its not that cheaper compared to acid and its painfuly slow and you have to use a wire brush.Great thing with acid is that you can submerge the part in it or simply use a brush.Oh you can just wipe it with a rag and paint over it in no time.
One thing I've noticed with Evapo rust, is that when it dries out when some is left in a dish, you end up with something that looks like molasses and Sulphured molasses would give you the sulphur content that you find in evaporust. so I was thinking that your ingredients with the molasses added might be the key.
I have heard you can actually use molasses itself to remove rust... Given the molasses residue left behind (I also noticed this) when it dries I think you are definitely on to something,
@@grumpycat_1 I'm using 1part feed grade molasses to 10parts water for rust removal of some hand planes. It's slower than evaporust but works just as well and doesn't do as much damage to any paint on the metal as I've heard evaporust does. Project farm on youtube did a comparison. It seems from their video it also doesn't darken the metal as badly as evaporust but I can't confirm that from experience.
@@steveh8724 Yeah I think the Evapo Rust = Oxalic acid + Chelating agent + soap of some kind, has been theroized since I posted this. Im still not sure that's all there is to Evapo Rust but this is a likely formula. I like Evapo Rust and use it almost exclusively on parts that I dont want to "etch" like tools etc... I have about 20 gallons of it and its still going strong after about a year of use. I have also run evaporust in a ultrasonic cleaner and it works really well.
Here is your missing ingredients - Another way of getting iron dissolving ions to the rust is to use salts instead of acids. Sodium phosphate or sodium sulphate ferric sulphate can be used
I have some WD-40 Rust Remover Soak and whatever it is, it acts similar to Evapo-Rust, but it really does not seem to work as quickly or thoroughly. Evapo-Rust is still the best product I've found for straight rust removal.
I used ascorbic acid in an electrochemical cell with a carbon anode electrode to free up some rusted solid steel, did do a good job on the rust, but of course nothing it could do about the pitting it had gotten. Ascorbic acid as I had a bag that was a few years expired, so not classed as edible, but still good as an organic acid. Also works well to anodise aluminium parts, again with the carbon cathode. Took a few seconds to anodise aluminium nicely, and a few hours with a 12V battery and a 50W lamp in series to get the rust away. Not that I see Evaporust here, only things for rust removal are acids, and then passivate with phosphoric acid, or use rust remover gels that are acid based.
vinegar needs some table salt, like couple teaspoons for 1l of 10% vinegar, works much more effectively, but the part obviously will develop flash rust much quicker when cleaned, so there is that...
Nice video . I prefer Citric Acid myself for cost , However for some grades of Cast Iron Do NOT use Citric acid , Hydrochloric , Acetic or Phosphoric acid as it rips out the carbon molecules and softens the surface of the cast iron. For cast iron probably stick with Vaporust or fermented Mollasses. For Steel , definitely use Citric or your 4Na -EDTA
Where I live I have to order Evapo rust, and the total comes out to $80 a gallon, its absolutely ridiculous, I now will try this, should save me an incredible amount, thanks!
I wonder if instead of Citric acid that they might be using methylsulfonic acid. You had mentioned a sulfur compound and methylsulfonic acid is used in the recovery of metal salts like iron oxides and zinc. Combined with a chelating agent like EDTA I think it would be pretty effective.
I have a very rusty antique manure spreader I will try this on. Taking it apart, the majority (not all at once) will fit in the lower half of a 300 gallon IBC. Soaking to clean the massive rust issues up will actually be worth trying at 75 cents a gallon.
Sodium Bisulphite, commonly known as baking soda is a very useful Industrial Chemical, with numerous applications. It's actually a blend of salts that dissolve in water to produce sodium and bisulfite ion solutions. In Australia they have to make the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) readily available to everyone. The MSDS for Evaporust indicates the active ingredient is Sodium Bi-Sulphate at 3% concentration (also known as Sodium Acid Sulphate or NaHSO4). NaHSO4 is commonly used as a pH decreaser for spas and dissolved in water would be an acidic solution, requiring buffering but perhaps Evaporust is just a mix of 3% Sodium Bi-Sulphate and a small amount of Tetra Sodium EDTA? May be worth another experiment?
So the Australian msds that shows sodium bisulfite is for a different product in the evaporust product line, I think it an aluminum related cleaner. Someone found an old German msds for real evaporust, which it turns out is diammonium polyphosphonate, and sodium oleum sulphonate. Sadly the ammonium compound is impossible to find in quantities less than metric ton orders
@@ElementalMakerI can buy the diammonium over here in Europe, but the sodium oleum sulfonate is impossible to find. It might be my lack of chemistry knowledge, as I can only find US or Chinese sites. Feels rather frustrating, so close, yet so far away by missing one ingredient.
Your used white vinegar . I have had better results with Apple cider vinegar. I did my fuel tank that was scale rust on the inside. I put a gallon in it, every hour i turned the 5 gallon tank . To get all surfaces . After 6 hrs all surfaces treated. Flushed it out wit a hose to get the remaining loose scale out. The inside surface was bright clean metal. Nearly 10 years later it still looks almost new inside the diesel tank.
It will eventually attack the underlying metal if the item is left in it for months or a year+. I had some items left in evaporust for like a year and the spring dissolved and the metal files fell apart.
The sulphur pulls the iron atoms away from the chelating agent converting it to a sulphur compound allowing the chelating agent to then remove more rust.
Turning machine guys tested EDTA 4Na and EDTA 2Na solutions for rusted drill bits/nozzles/files/nuts/bolts without adding citric acid. 2Na worked almost 4 times faster than 4Na, just like EvapoRust. Solutions were exactly like yours (except citric acid): 100g warm water (~50-60°C), 13-15g EDTA, 1-2g surfactant. Water was warm because EDTA 2Na dissolves harder in cold water. But what surfactant was used i don`t know (pretty sure it was cheap one like liquid soap or dishwashing detergent). p.s. In my country 1gal of EvapoRust costs ~100$ if you can find it. And 1gal of homemade solution with EDTA 2Na costs ~10$.
Wouldn't it perhaps be better to use Sodium Sulfate to titrate the edta back to neutral? This would leave some free sulfur available to form the soluble Ferrous Sulfate compound that may contribute to the fast action of evaporust?
A 5 lb bag of Tetrasodium EDTA now cost at least twice what it did when this video was done but Evaporust in our area costs about $36 a gallon. So, $1.50 to $2 a gallon isn't bad. Thanks
What about a DMSO mix? From Wikipedia: "It is an important polar aprotic solvent that dissolves both polar and nonpolar compounds and is miscible in a wide range of organic solvents as well as water. It has a relatively high boiling point. DMSO has the unusual property that many individuals perceive a garlic-like taste in the mouth after DMSO makes contact with their skin.[5]"
@@ElementalMaker correct. As I stated its for their gel. But I think its mostly the same components used. Triethanolamine is often used as a rust inhibinator, fx metal cutting fluid. Aluminium foil is said to be able to recharge evaporust which makes sense because the Aluminium sulphate possible is used up. You also talked about sulfur. When adding AlSO4 to water it becomes aluminium hydroxide which makes the water more gel’ly (this is the GEL SDS after all). Anyways. I think a lot of DIY research has happend since this video came out. Edd China also talks about it in one of his videos where he explaines how it works. Anyways. Thanks for answering on a 3 year old video. 💪🏻
@@gamingkingXholy smokes I think your right! I'm shocked that on the standard msds they list it as a trade secret, but on the gel it's listed. That plus the mass spec seems to confirm it. The reason I doubted is because an old German msds listed diammonium polyphosphonate and sodium oleum sulphonate as the ingredients, but maybe the formula changed to a more available chemical or was different for the European market. Either way time to do some more experiments! Thank you bigtime, if I do another video on it I'll be sure to credit you and the mass spec video.
So after all the helpful international investigating over the past two years have we been able do decide on a suitable "organic sulfur compound". Also do you have a recipe using fluid ounces and tablespoons for those of us who don't have scales? Thanks
@ElementalMaker tried your recipe, absolutely fantastic! I am derusting a radiator front panel off a LandRover, one of the few steel parts on the body. This has been sitting in a paddock for who knows how long but a lot of rust. Used a stripper to remove the paint, then created a bath using your recipe. The bath holds just under 20litres. I have left it in for a week and give the reducing rust spots a light wirebrush scrub before returining to the bath. The underlying metal looks like brand new, and this is off a part that is at least 60 years old! My question to you, whether you know or not, or some other reader might, is do I simply dry off and apply an expoxy primer, or do I need to treat with something else before applying the epoxy primer to properly seal and protect the metal?
Thank you for your comment. I will be cleaning some rusted motorcycle parts soon--including the tank. I hope you got your answer. If memory serves me correctly, sometimes steel processors will pickle their parts in a phorsphoric acid solution after derusting in order to prevent flash rust.
This comment is old but I like to etch bare metal with POR15 metal prep etch, which is essentially a zinc phosphor etch. Spray, leave for 30 mins, rinse off with water, heatgun to dry it quickly.
Muriatic acid works really well, usually in a few minutes. You need to rinse and heat dry the part FAST. and then coat the part with oil or it will rust again in ten minutes.. I use Fluid Film.
I'm guessing it's a lignosulfonate of some kind from what I found while searching. It's an organic byproduct of paper making, a chelating agent, and is listed as smelling like molasses.
Try 50mM EDTA 4Na and 100mM sodium hydrosulfite at pH 7.0 (titrate with citric acid) or you can use 50mM HIDS (biodegradable) and 100mM hydrosulfite at pH 7.0 (titrate with citric acid). You can heat these solutions to 40C to dissolve the components then you can dip rusty iron into it. Taken from a research paper. Hope this helps.
If you sent a sample to an analytical chemistry lab, they could use things like a TGA, FTIR, ICP-OES, to work out what's in it. It would be unlikely to give you the exact composition, but the ICP would probably be able to say "these elements in this ratio" from which you can do some further tests with the FTIR to work out if there's a hydrocarbon in there, which one.
legal trade laws would have to come into play there right? because its a protected formula, once the computer realized what it was, would it just say its private? or would the problem just come in if u attempted to manufacture it?
@@4dirt2racer0 For it to be a protected formula, it would have to be patented, which would legally protect the inventor from others reproducing his solution, as invention takes time, effort, and often money, and we want to reward this investment and allow them to recoup their costs and make a little profit. But the patent is a guide on how to make it, so once that patent is up, anyone can legally sell a cheap knock off. That's why they didn't patent Dr Pepper or the Coca-Cola recipe. They are trade secrets instead. Which means anyone who has information on how it's made is under NDA, but there is nothing you can do to stop someone investing the time and effort into reverse engineering it, hence Pepsi-Cola and the other numerous knock offs. There's nothing to stop you breaking a patent at home, personally. It's intended to stop people commercially producing your product and taking a cut of your profits before you've recouped your investment. A lot of the equipment I mentioned works off a data base of "fingerprints" of materials. So it would give a list of potential matches with a percentage match to each. Something like pure ethanol would be easy to identify from boiling point and density, or maybe a gas chromatograph- mass spectrometer (GC-MS). That could also identify combinations of solvents. I used a GC-MS to analyse what compounds were comprising an odor and it told us a list of the composing compounds. The university I worked with on the project were using similar technology to reverse engineer whisky, they can detect a fake with high quantitative certainty. They were also doing something on the decomposition of a corpse.
@@Leo99929 - doesn't a patent 'just' protect the owner from people profitiing from the patent? If you were to make some equivalent solution entirely for your own use, not sell any on, then are you breaking the law?
@@thosdot6497 Totally! You can make as much for personal use as you like. You just can't sell it. The cost of prosecuting individuals for patent infringement makes it infeasible .
Fascinating! For an old axe or similar tool, I do 24 hours in vinegar (don’t leave it in until it eats the metal), then hit it with a wire wheel. At this point I can usually see the temper line. Then I do a day or two of electrolysis, wire wheel, then a few days in Evaporust, and final wire wheel. I don’t mind spending a few more days, if my Evaporust is a lot cheaper. 👍
Home made kombucha tea!! Seriously. It's practically free and it works and is not toxic till you dump rusty metal into it. It has a mix of acids that seem to work better than vinegar. It is slow like vinegar.
Nice! I know I'm alte to comment but that's gone right into my Maker Tips playlist. Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) is in a lot of soft drinks to make them a bit tart, coca cola I think for one - and I've had a phosphoric acid based "rust passivator" which you use to turn the metal black and not rust again. But a bit got through my rubber glove into a fresh cut and it was DEFIINITELY acidic (ask me how I know...) and so I immediately went to wash off and look up phosphoric acid and found out it's a food ingredient so wasn't likely to end in my slow agonising death. But I'd though it was s rust remover when in fact it converts rust so the best way I found to finish was to roughly wirebrush back thick rust and then apply the H3PO4, give it time to do its thing, and then wash down afterwards. It was also good to wirebrush bare new metal, spray salt and vinegar water over it and let it rust, then hit it with H3PO4 and - black surface that didn't rust again.
One important detail: phosphoric acid DOES NOT attack the underlying base metal. That’s the magic of it: although acid (I think ph of 2?), it reacts with iron OXYDE, not with iron. Hence the fact it is used a lot to protect metal in factories, for instance to make sure base metal isn’t rusting while in stock, before shipping. It also leaves a clean surface that will not rust (while most acids will just cook the surface, leaving pure iron to the surface, which will rust pretty quickly). Very interesting video though!
Ive got more experience with por-15 metal ready, a similar product. The joy i had when i found out it can be used on bare clean metal to protect it. Now my stock in the shop stays rust free.
We’ve always used phosphoric acid to clean the inside of carbon steel pipework. It really does a great job, but it’s nasty stuff. What the citric acid did in 8 hours, phosphoric does in 5 minutes...
Anywhere I can find it, Evaporust in Australia is between $60 & $90 per gallon. Gotta love the Australia tax. Probably also answers why people in the US treat aluminium like a throw away material and down here I can't bring myself to use the tiny amount I bought because it cost so much.
Sponsored by YOU! No seriously I couldn't do this without your support, so a big thanks to my patrons at www.patreon.com/elementalmaker. Please consider throwing a dime at this homeless guy you call ElementalMaker. Hes' homeless because he lives in his workshop. Not really. But Maybe.
Are you actually autistic? Me too.
thiourea and sulfamic acid? Two good suspects for the Evaporust secret recipe.
Edit: /salute from another 'technically homeless' guy living at work. This economy sucks.
Youre not homeless! Homeless guys have nasty beards, youre just a pair of Adam's Family extra's & a disembodied voice - your "home" could just be a pair of gloves! 😉
can make a vid on brewing and distilling alcohol?
You remind me of mr wizard from the late 70s- late 80s
I tried this method to de-rust the rear end of my car in a large tub (didn't want to buy $600 worth of evaporust). What I found was that after soaking for a day, there was no visible difference--but I did notice I could more easily scratch rust off with my fingernail. So I decided to try taking it out and power washing it. Except for the very heaviest rust spots, the rust just washed away like dirt! It was miraculous! Hope that helps someone. Many thanks to ElementalMaker.
Thanks for posting !
Could you share the recipe on that large concoction?
I de rusted body panels on my car by using Hydrochloric Acid, and ordinary sand (as the scrubber). Wearing safety gloves, I soaked a rag with hydrochloric acid, then dipped this in dry sand, and started to scrub away. This really worked for me, and then I rinsed with plain water, because the rusting is immediate. Then treated the scrubbed surface with a Phosporic Acid. Washed this off the next day, and primed the bodywork with paint. Obviously, you must not breathe the Hydrochloric Acid Fumes, so please wear the appropriate Mask.
When I evaporust, I take the part out a few times a day and brush it.
That is what I used to do too. But, the evaporust seems to keep the part from rusting after rinsing a little better - especially things like gas tanks. Also, some items I use zinc-chromate primer, and that keeps the metal from rerusting. @@peterduxbury927
I've never tried Evaporust myself, but I love trying to solve puzzle videos like this.
My quick analysis is that the green color is an important clue. It's showing that there is iron in solution, but it's starved for oxygen. You can test this by taking some of the green liquid and putting a little hydrogen peroxide in it, and seeing if it flashes to brown. If it does, but then turns green again, then there is another layer of buffering. To make your version better (I know it's already cheap as is, but better is better), it needs something to deplete the oxygen in the partially-used solution. The green iron oxidation state means it is ready to steal oxygen from rust, but the new fluid is supposedly clear to yellowish, so it must start with a first layer of oxygen remover to preserve it until initial uses, and to verify its freshness upon receipt. Based on the assumption that one of the ingredients is ferrous hydroxide, which is clear, but turns green when contaminated by oxygen, but you're assuming it contains soap, and watching a video of new liquid being poured... I suspect that one of the pH/oxygen buffers is glycerine.
You stated that it smelled a little like burned sugar too, and the MSDS says it's pretty much harmless to everything.
I therefore suspect that the ingredients include ferrous hydroxide, from ferrous sulfate and sodium hydroxide, and glycerine, which may smell sweet in a chemical reaction, but will form a useful soap with the excess hydroxide, while helping to buffer the pH, along with something like citric acid to get the pH down enough without using an excess of glycerine.
Wow. Look at that. Lots of useful information here. Anyone try this? I need a lot for a gas tank.
methanesulfonic acid
Chelating agents like phosphonates (>5%), possibly NTMP, EDTMP and DTPMP, are mentioned in their compound list.
@@pappaflammyboi5799 That makes sense. It would occupy dissolved rust and keep it from doing much chemically. Those kind of things would be behind making the solution last over multiple uses.
Hey Buck, have a look at what I have just posted and let us know what you think. I found and downloaded a US Military spec. "Corrosion Removing Compound, Sodium Hydroxide Base;
For Electrolytic Or Immersion Application" They state also "without causing material change in the dimensional characteristics of the treated article." Hydroxide conc. is pretty low.
The big advantage of Evaporust is you can flood the surface using an aquarium pump. Run that overnight and rust is gone.
That's a great tip! Never thought to do that
and it's reusable. filter out particles and put back in to a clean container. keep used Evaporust separate from new Evap'st.
That, one can do with vinegar or other acids to.
I found some patents for rust removers that use sodium EDTA and thiourea dioxide. Thiourea dioxide is a relatively stable reducing agent that (apparently) assists in converting rust to a more-soluble form. As can be deduced from its name, it contains sulfur. A paper by some Japanese researchers indicated that the best rust removal is obtained when the solution pH is close to neutral. Thiourea dioxide is used in the textile industry so should be readily available. An alternative to it might be sodium bisulfite. This also according to the Japanese research.
Saw something like this on a different channel. (can't remember which one) but he had a similar approach and his solution was AWESOME! I keep it in my notes app. I'll paste it below here if you want to try it.
You take
1 liter of water,
100 grams of citric acid,
40 grams of sodium carbonate (washing soda),
and add an arbitrary amount of liquid dish soap.
Mix together
(Rust removal solution Is reusable)
Yeah that's what I'm trying next time
Wait, this isn’t ProjectFarm! :)
Hahaha I was thinking the se thing!!!
NO thank god!!!! lol i love that channel but the speaking or lines or whatever u call the style he delivers he lines is soo distracting n hard to listen to, it would absolutely b one of my favorite channels if it wasnt for that, i guess it just seems kinda lazy with just reading off cards with no context its messes up the flow of the video n again is distracting. hell have cards or points written on stuff he wants to cover in the video but he reads them verbatim, like "evaporust is a great product. i use evaporust any chance i get. Evaporust wont damage the metal. Evaporust also hurt your skin and evaporust is non toxic" after a few times u can just say it!!!! lol that drives me so crazy i cant even watch the videos lol i write and its just lazy writing, u need to combine your thoughts at the end and let them flow without repetition or youll bore the reader
This is FrojectParm
I wasn't the only on thinking it, lol! I don't know what it is about that thumbnail/title combo that makes it look so ProjectFarm.
Evaporust at my local Advance Auto Parts is about $28 a gallon.
Mass Spec Everything has confirmed Evaporust's chelating agent is Triethanolamine. It also has aluminum sulphate in it. The sulphur helps self recharge the chelating action. I wonder if adding that to the EDTA solution would improve it's performance.
Interesting! Did you run the mass spec yourself? Per an old German msds sheet, the main listed ingredient was diammonium polyphosphonate with a small added amount of sodium oleum sulphonate to, but I could never find a source for the diammonium polyphosphonate. If it really is triethanolamine that's great news! Way more easy to source. Thank you very much for this info, I will definitely try it!
@@ElementalMaker no I wasn't the one running the test. Another youtuber: th-cam.com/video/X6-uxmwn43Y/w-d-xo.html
@@ElementalMaker do you have an inexpensive source of triethanolamine? I've been looking and seem like I could make generic Evaporust for maybe 1/2 what it costs, but it's not nearly as inexpensive as your EDTA solution.
A small nitpick: Citric acid is not a "buffer" and you are not "buffering" the solution back to neutral. It is just an acid, and you are adjusting the pH back to a neutral value using an appropriate amount of the acid.
A buffer is actually something different. A buffer contains a balance of particular chemicals which work together in such a way that they _maintain and resist changes to_ a particular pH level _even when other acids or bases are added._ That is, buffers will not change their pH even if you add acids or bases to them (up to the limit of their buffering capacity).
None of the stuff you are using here is actually a pH buffer in the standard chemistry sense...
Great to know, I had no idea
Neat. Thank you
He's not "adjusting the pH". This is called neutralization reaction. He's neutralizing the solution, Mr chemist.
yep and NaHCO3 is good, cheap and available every where, it keep the PH at aprox 7.5-8
@@suprememasteroftheuniverse "Adjusting the pH to a neutral value" is _literally the definition_ of what "neutralizing" means (in this context). Just because you chose to use different terms which mean exactly the same thing does not make anything I said actually wrong.
If you have any EDTA left over after you are done, remember to keep it handy in case of vampire attack. It explodes on contact with vampire blood. (source: "Blade" 1998)
The *EXACT* moment he said EDTA, I immediately thought of Wesley Snipes saying that 😄
*I use this in a large bath to repurpose large rusted parts (radiators, compressors, transmissions etc etc) and have found that agitation is key to reducing the times.* If I can I simply place large totes inside my work vehicles, and the vibrations do all the work. But if the parts are too big, then I use a solar bubbler to keep the fluid moving. A "wiffle ball" is great for tumbling around and knocking into objects gently enough to work times down significantly. I just finished a car radiator and a HVAC evaporator in 3 hours. Shine like they are brand new!
For the last 50 years or so, I have been using a solution of approx. 15 to 1 water to molasses to remove rust ! It takes a while, (a week or two) but it is the least expensive and most effective and safest method I know of !
Interesting that EvapoRust smells sweet and you've found molasses capable of removing rust. Maybe adding a surfactant to your molasses solution would help speed it up a bit? I *think* (I could be wrong on this) that molasses also contains a bit of sulfur, too.
@@floorpizza8074Molasses create weak vinegar so nothing extra.
It destroys alloys and certain other metals.
I use molasses and then after washing, dip it in phosphoric acid to give a protective coating until ready to paint.
@@lazyj4732 what destroys?
@@otofoto Molasses
Here's two chelants with sulfur atoms (softer electron density): dimercaprol, and succimer.
Dimercaprol and succimer both smell terrible. They might work, but your family might not be thrilled with you when you are using it.
@ElementalMaker: I used to work in a cheese factory where we used citric acid to remove rust stains from the concrete floors. We just sprinkled granulated citric acid on the stains and got them damp with a hose. After about 5 minutes we''d hose it off and the stains would wash away. I always wondered why it seemed to pull the rust out of the concrete. It being a chelating agent makes it obvious why. Thanks for this video.
In New Zealand Evaporust is $85.00NZD for 5 liters, $54.00USD for 1.3 gallons. I found it very hard to find a company that sells EDTA to the public But I will keep trying because I am eager to try your solution (No pun intended). Thanks for the information.
Pure nature sells the Tetrasodium EDTA, price was reasonable & service was great :)
So I have been obsessed with cloning evaporust for a while and this video pushed me to get started. I have been working and tweaking and finally came up with something that I think gets as close you can to the original formula while still being cheap and easy to get ingredients. Total cost is about $5.35/gal The rustlick has the benefit of also helping prevent flash rusting when you remove the parts from solution just like evaporust.
To make ~4L (approx 1 gal)
4L liters water (ideally distilled or R/O water)
200g EDTA 4NA
200ml Rustlick B (73011)
~30 ml sulfuric acid drain cleaner to buffer to approx 7pH
******* Use eye protection, gloves, all the usual gear when working with strong acids/bases********
Dissolve water and EDTA until completely dissolved then mix in the Rustlick B
Add the sulfuric acid slowly, I would suggest adding 15ml at first, take a pH reading and then add 5ml at time until you hit the mark.
You can use another acid to buffer such as citric acid but the sulfur is supposed to be beneficial.
if you are still interested:
the european SDS of evaporust lists "Diammonium
Phosphonatbuilder" and "Natriumpetroleumsulfonat" as the additional ingredients.
No clue if it's the same mixture as overseas tho.
See: kunden.tda.at/pumpkin/images/news/Sicherheitsdatenblatt_Evapo-Rust.pdf
Whats wrong with citric acid instead of sulfuric acid?
@@meocats it doesn't have sulfur.. The bond to iron must be better. But I'm no chemist
@@_mylastname "Sulfonat" sounds awfully like sulfur :)
@@ChriFux Translated from German to English it says: Composition / information on ingredients - Substances / mixtures: List of ingredients according to CLP (EC) Regulation No. 1272/2008 CAS component EC no: water 70-90%, diammonium phosphonate builder 2-12
%, Sodium Petroleum Sulfonate 3-10%
Diammonium phosphate is one of a series of water-soluble ammonium phosphate salts that can be produced when ammonia reacts with phosphoric acid.
Sodium Petroleum Sulphonate may be used at concentrations of 10% to 22% by weight in selected industrial and metalworking applications. Sodium sulfonates have had a long history of use in metalworking fluids. It function as emulsifiers and corrosion inhibitors.
In Australia evaporust is $100 per gallon so this helps me a lot 😁
@@AEON. - only the fancy beers... Just bought a 5 litre container for $A70, on special. $A425 for a 5kilo concentrated form that makes 30 litres (about 7.5 US gallons). Since Tetrasodium EDTA is about $25/kg, this is so much cheaper. Now to buy a small plunge pool and a crane...
Dear god, that's insane! I see a business opportunity. Start getting people to carry a couple liters in their checked luggage when they go to visit and we've got ourselves a nice little racket! Is that $100 in Australian monopoly money or American dollars?
Yeah $100 fuck that Vinegar or citric acid is cheap
Same in Canada
@WmSrite-pi8ck funny you call australian money monopoly money when american money is still made of paper lol :)
Apparently it contains water, a chelating agent, and a detergent.
The FAQ says that "once the chelating agent has removed the iron, a sulfur bearing organic molecule pulls the iron away from the chelator and forms a ferric sulfate complex which remains water soluble. This frees the chelating agent to remove more iron from rust."
So the chelating agent isn't the one that has the sulfur atom - it's probably the detergent.
A sulphur based surfactant then.
@@bitTorrenter SLSA maybe? first thing that comes to mind from when I made soap back in the day
Perhaps the chelating agents such as the phosphonates NTMP, EDTMP and DTPMP? It is mentioned in their compounds list.
sodium petroleum sulfonate
Thioglycolic acid or sodium thiosulfate with Propylene glycol, PEG 400
Having a lot of chelating power in solution increases the effective solubility of Fe3+ ions. There is no oxidizer in solution, O2 will not be bubbling out, the oxygen in Fe2O3 (real rust is not exactly that, but that does not mater for this point) will go into solution as oxide ions (O with 2- charge) and that immediately rips off a proton from a water molecule, forming two hydroxide ions. So the solution will get more basic as you dissolve more rust. But due to the low amount of rust its probably not noticeable.
Here in Aus, a gallon (actually 5 litres) costs at least $60, and most places are asking $90, so it is expensive here. I had a look at the MSDS for evaporust, and it appears to be 15-20% sodium bisulfate (metabisulfate in solution), 80% water and a small amount of a surfactant. A DIY version would be 150-200g sodium metabisulfate, 800ml water and a couple of drops of dish soap.
Did your MSDS also said something about diammonium phosphonate?
Apparently sodium bisulfate is a strong acid used as a buffering agent. If you don't have a alkaline solution already, sodium bisulfate will make your solution very acidic. Do you know of a base used on evaporust to take the acid or vice/versa?
Metabisulfate doesn't exist, you are confusing with metabisulfite, used in homebrewing. Sodium bisulfite NaHSO3 only exists in solution (Na+ HSO3- aq.), it precipitates as sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5. But that is unrelated to this process, which used sodium bisulfate NaHSO4, which does exist as a solid. It is basically partially neutralised sulfuric acid H2SO4, and still pretty damn acidic.
Thats interesting litres here in NZ 5 litres cost me NZD 50 at $10 a litre its cheaper than any other rust converter available. Including the CRC tantic acid based converter.
Seven dislikes are from evaporust's patent lawyers sweating nervously
It's at 14 dislikes now
When I reverse engineer, I go STREIGHT for the SDS or MSDS! sometimes one gets lucky
@@davefellhoelter1343 No help in this case, unless you can tell me what "Trade Secret" is.
@@1978garfield I can't get my hands on any Evaorust to read the Haz or Active ingredients, but "I Have" OJT for Passivation in pharma, aero, electronics, and industrial. short of this my "go to" is Citric acid(vitimin C) @ about 180f after cleaning solvent of TSP at same temp for iron oxide rust removal.
@@davefellhoelter1343 vitamin C is ascorbic acid
In Australia they have to make the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) readily available to everyone. The MSDS for Evaporust indicates the active ingredient is Sodium Bi-Sulphate at 3% concentration (also known as Sodium Acid Sulphate or NaHSO4). NaHSO4 is commonly used as a pH decreaser for spas and dissolved in water would be an acidic solution, requiring buffering but perhaps Evaporust is just a mix of 3% Sodium Bi-Sulphate and a small amount of Tetra Sodium EDTA? May be worth another experiment?
Oops, I think the MSDS actually said Sodium Bisulphite (NaHSO3)
@@jimmylastname5321 How in the world is this off-topic?!? More info is good. Calm down and top trying to play gatekeeper.
According to the government, cola Coke is not chemical.
@@theaussienurseflipper.8113 Everything is made of chemicals. Coke is a food product and as such must have all the ingredients (ie. chemicals) listed on the label and in some countries it will also need an MSDS. The label indicates that Coke contains Food Acid 338 which is phosphoric acid, very definitely considered a "chemical" by the government. Phosphoric acid (and to some extent the dissolved carbon dioxide) is what gives Coke it's slightly prickly (ie. acidic) feel. Phosphoric acid is a key ingredient in a number of commercial rust converter solutions and this is why people will say that Coke can be used to remove rust but it isn't very effective because the concentration is low.
@@emilebarrett1167 it's on the label, I don't believe safety data sheet for coke.
We must consider the temperature in the evaluation. Vinegar can go from just sitting there like water to visible bubbling just by placing the container in the sun or other warming. Probably goes for the other rust removers as well. Also degreasing is so important, as the chems must reach the rust. And wire brushing away thick rust first saves time and the acid doesn't get used up as fast.
I was wondering the same thing about temperature. I had a piece of aluminum that I had broken a steel tap off in while trying to tap a thread. I had read that soaking it in a solution of alum would dissolve the broken tap. Nothing much seemed to happen until I heated the solution and then it worked amazingly quickly.
When I use Evaporust, I definitely heat the solution (not too hot to touch) first and will continue to reheat it often. There is a dramatic difference between room temp (70-75°F) and warm solution. Warm/hot solution works much faster. Of course, this is true for most chemical reactions.
I've used phosphoric acid as a rust removal agent for decades. There are certain grades of steel that it attacks, including most springs. The application where I liked it best was in restoring old motorcycle and classic car gas tanks. I also had no qualms about using it on cast iron. The big challenge is that finding a surfactant to improve the wetting of the solution is not easy; acid-stable candidates can be had in the industrial chemical market, but usually you have to buy them in unrealistic quantities. (I did that in the past, and ran out of what I had about a decade back.)
Am i the only person who just breaks off tiny little pieces of ph paper rather than using whole strips? Its quite cost effective. Also. A great rust solution is sodium sulfate, i usually have ALOT in my boiling flask from the fuming nitric acid distillation process. Its usually a big rick hard mass at the bottom that requires using water to dissolve it in order to remove it. Put it in a bucket and add in your rusty steel.. it makes hardened high carbon steel look very nice.. and if antool or blade is differentially hardened then you can see a really great contrasting demarkation between soft and hard steel. Really cool.
a little video about this process and effects won't hurt
I get 3 tests from each of my strips, I use tweezers to avoid getting it on me.
When I needed to clean out an old motorcycle gas tank phosphoric acid in the form of Milk Stone Remover was recommended. After seeing the price of almost $30gal I considered other sources. While drinking a cold coca cola I read the ingredients and, lo and behold, there it was. The old tank was plugged and topped off with a couple 2ltrs of coke. A week later the tank was clean and free of gas smell. I proceeded to safely weld the pin holes without blowing myself up.
BTW works well with aluminum tanks also.
If evaporust finishes better maybe go with the diy mix for heavy intial removal and switch over for finishing. Then the evaporust lasts much longer.
For small parts, I have found that a warm solution of citric acid(as shown here, approx 80-100F, if you want warmer, best to test) in an ultrasonic tank works very well, and the ultrasonic motion helps to agitate the loose particulate away from the parts. Of course, using a proper dilution is helpful. But its insanely cheap, can be dumped on the backyard garden/grass without issue, unlike heavier chemicals. Plus, citric acid is cheap cheap cheap. R/O water from the local water store, my local also offers RO/DI. With an ultrasonic, make sure to use a secondary container to hold your working solution in the tank of water. I use the same process for cleaning parts with solvents, things like small engine carbs and parts when rebuilding engines. Ultrasonic really speeds up the time, plus using a heated/warm solution vs room temperature.
It's safe for your grass, but be careful around bushes: I spend way to much on chelated iron as a safe herbicide to take out various broadleaf weeds. Seems I should have been using citric acid/edta and junk parts the whole time!
Also, notice how the citric acid solution went a lot more yellowish-green instead of brown. That is due to base metal corrosion, the Fe3+ ions and the acidic environment together dissolve some Fe metal and form Fe2+ ions, which are green.
You remove a lot more iron sanding them with citric acid and I'm not seeing anybody complaining.
I've used Evaporust for years, tried a bunch of other stuff and by far is the best. Yeah I wish it was a bit more affordable. I'm usually doing small parts and have found a soaked paper towel around the part in a zip type plastic bag with the air pressed out is a good way to economize that stuff.
Another great test is to see if the rust removal product attacks zinc coated bolts, aluminium or chrome plated metals. Most acids do get rid of rust but also destroy other metals pretty fast.
I realize this is an older video. Thing I have to offer using vinegar is it woeks 10× better when it is hot! Not boiling, maybe coffee temp or slightly below. Changes its ability to remove rust dramatically. Not sure if the motility of the solution being hot/super warm is the key, but, works way better.
Great tip thank you!
and, afterward you can drink it. I hear it cures cancer, lol.
I've used plenty of phosphoric, and it doesn't clean rust off surfaces - it's great at converting what rust remains after you've cleaned a part up, leaving a finish similar to the Evaporust, but it's not really any good at getting the surface rust off in the first place.
Good job on trying for evaporust. On old radios what is used as well as evaporust is naval jelly. Use a tiny brush to put on the Naval jelly and it makes old rusty radio metal look new.
I put evaporust in my 1931 model A , filled the cooling system and left it for days . Some say they drive it around with it in there . It definitely gets some crud out !
Couldn't that damage it to drive it?
@@WolfJinx7 , worked just fine for me and no damage I’ve ever heard of from anyone.
@@jerrypeal653 ok so do you using a mix of you plan on still driving it or??? Sorry if the question is stupid I'm still trying to learn more about working on my own cars. ☺️
Thanks for doing this !!!
I actually tried your experiment using Disodium EDTA and Citric Acid powders. I put a piece of lightly rusted 2x2 tubing that would sit inside the container I used and in about 9 hours the rust was all taken off. The steel tube was rusted more inside than out but it was also clean. I had no ph paper, so I guessed whether I was putting enough in of any of the two main content items. I used approximately one tbsp of the EDTA and perhaps just shy of 1/2 tsp of the Citric Acid in filtered water from a BRITA pitcher and about 10 drops of dish detergent as a surfactant.
It worked better than I expected and I will try more in a larger container as I have a few old horseshoes to try it on that have been out in the weather for a few decades. I have used Evaporust for quite some time now but the price has gone astronomical for 5 gallons and this will help as an option.
how much water did you use along with these ingredients?
@@ericbencina2048 Pint Jar 95% fill (Mason)
If you can wait a week and want a 55 gallon tank, you can not beat molasses. Two gallons of molasses in 55 gallons of water turns the rust into a black silt that washes off under a tap. Get the molasses from an animal feed suppliers, people feed it to horses. It's about $11 a gallon although I think it is sold by weight so it's maybe 10lbs that looks about the size of a gallon. I have left stuff in for weeks and it forms some kind of a passivation layer that is resistant to rust flashing after the black silt is washed off.
Although I'm sure you're way past this experiment I just came across your video and appreciated the idea trying to replicate the evapo-rust formula. I use gallons of the stuff so I can actually personally benefit from trying to make it. Your mention of the somewhat sweet, sulfur smell in the original product made me think about possible additional ingredients which might account for that and actually balance the formula. They may actually be using either cane or beet molasses which has a relatively stable pH 5-7 or nuetral for beet molasses. And since they also promote the product as environmentally safe to handle this ingredient makes sense . What do you think?
I loved your video because I'm starting to restore to restore a 1996 Ford Ranger that's in pretty good shape for it's age,except for small areas on the engine compartment and mounting hardware!
Your video was an answer from heaven.
GREAT VIDEO I HOPE YOU KEEP MAKING MORE!
Thank you.
From the Evaporust site: When finished, rinse item with water. If deep rust remains in pits, re-immerse item until all the rust is gone. Un-rusted metal will not be affected. *NOTE: This stage is VERY important in getting the best results*
I'd rather just do the citric acid... Probably the same steps, you think?
I have tried many of these to remove rust over the last few decades including reverse electrolysis. Each has their pros and cons.
Yes, Citric acid does a great job but as he stated... it WILL remove good metal too if you leave it in the solution too long. Just like vinegar.
You really should neutralize the acid after (rinse or soak it with 1 cup baking soda to 1 gallon of water).
Try citric acid or vinegar on a part you don't care about just to get an idea of what it might do if left too long.
I accidentally left a part with a MIG welded joint in citric acid for over a week. The weld almost disappeared. It looked like a piece of wood that wood worms attacked.
Way back when, racers would dip their car bodies in acids like vinegar or stronger to lighten them.
@@Joe.Doucette "I accidentally left a part with a MIG welded joint in citric acid for over a week. The weld almost disappeared. It looked like a piece of wood that wood worms attacked. " Yeah right. FOS.
@@teebosaurusyou FOS? Really? Well bless your little heart.
What's BS about that? If the weld wire was softer and more reactive it would become a sacrificial anode and get eaten up quickly.
Maybe the acids (vinegar and bare citric) would also benefit from some surfactant. My guess the "easy to peel" rust residues in the vinegar is actually a rust soaked in some grease, so not allowing sufficient penetration...
The citric acid sounds like it might be one of the best alternatives to evaporust just because of the accessibility. You can buy citric acid everywhere, so you don't have to order it.
It also doesn't require a hazmat charge for shipping, which also helps reduce shipping costs(if you need to have it shipped).
I just found a very old and rusty roofing hatchet head. Citric Acid made it look almost media blasted. I do spray parts with silicone or Barricade because nothing rusts faster in the humidity than etched metal. Both products come off easy with brake cleaner when you want to add paint or urethane to parts.
I wonder what you can find if you send evaporust to a chemical analyzer
Thank you for figuring this out and validating it!
If the citric acid or vinegar don't seem to be getting to all the rust, perhaps adding some dish soap to those chemicals as well.
Also, I've found that putting the container of solution in an ultrasonic machine filled with water speeds up the process significantly.
Wow you almost nailed it. Evaporust uses Tannic acid and Ca EDTA. Very cool video my friend.
How did you find what they used?
@@jackgriffiths6366 I am a chemical engineer.
@@Biokemist-o3k do you know the ratios? I need to soak some very large car parts.
@@MichaelT-ft3cz 5% EDTA and then bring the Ph to near 7 with the tannic acid. I believe that was the ratio I found. It's been a while. Make a small test batch before you make 3,000 gallons....
It appears that the edta is a lot more expensive now.
Any ideas which one I should go with that’s still reasonably priced I want to make sure I get the correct stuff. Any assistance would help
another YT channel says the home made he made works just as fast / faster than evaporust and lasts much longer (can be used 10 times more than evapo rust ) ,
but he added sodium bicarbonate to the citric acid and of course dish water soap to avoid metal etching
@@truenorth3010 yes Carlos recipe is great, highly recommended
Hi I started using molasses and water 9:1 mix after watching an Australian fellow dipping an entire car in the stuff for rust removal. the stuff really works, much slower than Evaporust and the upside🤣 if you have some molasses left over you can make some cookies.
Rich
Great video and result i know i am super late to the party , any ways i was browsing around and checking alternatives and found this recipe :
Tetrasodium EDTA: 5% by weight
Citric Acid: 1-2% by weight
Sodium Metabisulfite: 1-2% by weight
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH): To adjust pH
Water: Balance to 100%
don't actually know if it works , would love to try this my self but cant get ahold of EDTA here where i live .
if i understand it correctly the diferencie is the Sodium Metabisulfite that acts as a catalyst to let the EDTA work (like aqua regia solution)
and the Sodium Hydroxide is mostly just for balance PH .
It would be interesting to compare each of them with occasional agitation vs being in an ultrasonic cleaner.
Cool, thanks. I live in Michigan and work on cars a lot so I know all about rust. I've also been amazed by the effectiveness of Evapo Rust. The price isn't terrible but it can add up if you need to buy a lot, I'll look into giving this a try next time I need to de-rust something big.
A comparison with oxalic acid would have been interesting, as it seems to have a good reputation for rust conversion. (Serendipity! I was _just_ looking for information on evapo-rust.) Very good, thank you.
Could not find a cheap source for the EDTA unless I bought a 55 lb bag. A one pound bag of EDTA from Ebay was $23/lb and a 55 lb bag was $7/lb. I bought the one pound bag and made two gallons. Didn't save a lot of money, but the stuff works and I have no complaints. It will be hard to tell if it is cheaper in the long way, because I don't have a good way to determine longevity. Thanks for the formula.
Yeah I'm bummed, the supplier I used in this video ran out of stock and so far hasn't gotten any more in. Every other source is pretty expensive as you noted. Glad it works well for you though!
Neat! I know for a fact that it's not EDTA in Evapo-Rust.
A few commenters noted that the German sds actually lists the full ingredients. Unfortunately I can't obtain the main one outside of buying in metric tons from China. Big fan of your channel! Thanks for dropping a comment!
@@ElementalMaker So, what is the "main one" that you cannot buy ... ??
@@ElementalMaker Can you guys steer us in the right direction?
So what is it then?
……we all “know for a fact” you’re not going to share your “knowledge”……pity.
Molasses has been used for years have you tested it against evaporust?
The sweet smell of the ER is ethylene glycol the wetting agent in it , also try oxalic acid next time and try it in your own concoction in place of the citric
What's the benefit of oxalic over citric?
@@kwaj177
Oxalic acid is superior to other acids for rust removal because it forms complexes with iron ions much better. The oxalic acid can pull the oxidized iron out of the rust and into solution where it can be washed away. Anyone who has seen a pale green color in the oxalic acid bath after soaking parts for a while has seen the iron-oxalate complex ([Fe(III)(C_2O_4)_3]^{3+}) in solution. Other chemicals will do this, including acetic and citric acids, but because of its structure oxalic acid is the optimal choice.
3y old vid so hoping this is seen, but since citric acid is cheap and does well, why not try buffering it back toward neutral? Perhaps add a bit of borax or some weak base? Ammonia might be nice too. Either would give some added cleaning power.
The abnormal component of the chelating agent used would be the high selectivity they claim, saying it "bonds to iron exclusively" this is not true for EDTA which has quite a strong affinity to zinc (just to pick one of many), One other odd component is that they say it has no effect on hematite.
It does mention that 'Evapo-rust will remove "sacrificial coatings" such as bluing, browning, zinc, or other oxides'.
I believe that Evaporust chelating agent is HEBD-CC not EDTA. It also contains TEOA.
Most of the product is some kind of bark juice stabilized with sulfite.
Basically bog water sold at 40$ per gallon.
There has to be some chelator simmilar to EDTA, if not it. But on top of that, it also contains a sulfur compund which reacts with iron bonded on chelator molecule. It can liberate used chelator molecule, making it reactive again. Sulfur molecule probably has to create some sort of iron complex in the reaction.
Now I can afford to soak engine blocks! Thanks!
Cook a cornstarch + vinegar goo then apply like paint
@@mamupelu565 this works?
@@Joe-bm4wx
Haven't found a english-speaking video but according to this one it works:
th-cam.com/video/f2DUJl6cCqg/w-d-xo.html
(he said that vinegar + salt in electrolysis is much better, but it has to be in a ventilated area and the object has to be submerged)
@@mamupelu565 yeah salt gives off chlorine gas under electrolysis
Ya but I don't want to be smelling vinegar for any amount of time but ya he said in the description about$0.75 a gallon you are going to pay that for distilled water so get a container big enough and should be good
Good thing about phosphoric acid is that it takes very short time.In about 5- 10 min it eats the rust away,it wont eat deep rust but if you use a wire wheel and reapply it ,its very fast.When it comes with a contact with rust it starts to bubble with a white foam.If you wash it with water it wont leave it thou.I buy it in a hardware store ,its sold in a 75% solution as a rust remover.I used to use a vinegar but its not that cheaper compared to acid and its painfuly slow and you have to use a wire brush.Great thing with acid is that you can submerge the part in it or simply use a brush.Oh you can just wipe it with a rag and paint over it in no time.
One thing I've noticed with Evapo rust, is that when it dries out when some is left in a dish, you end up with something that looks like molasses and Sulphured molasses would give you the sulphur content that you find in evaporust. so I was thinking that your ingredients with the molasses added might be the key.
I have heard you can actually use molasses itself to remove rust... Given the molasses residue left behind (I also noticed this) when it dries I think you are definitely on to something,
@@grumpycat_1 th-cam.com/video/_dzlE9-9DVE/w-d-xo.html
@@grumpycat_1 Molasses works because it naturally contains a low concentration of oxalic acid.
@@grumpycat_1 I'm using 1part feed grade molasses to 10parts water for rust removal of some hand planes. It's slower than evaporust but works just as well and doesn't do as much damage to any paint on the metal as I've heard evaporust does. Project farm on youtube did a comparison. It seems from their video it also doesn't darken the metal as badly as evaporust but I can't confirm that from experience.
@@steveh8724 Yeah I think the Evapo Rust = Oxalic acid + Chelating agent + soap of some kind, has been theroized since I posted this. Im still not sure that's all there is to Evapo Rust but this is a likely formula.
I like Evapo Rust and use it almost exclusively on parts that I dont want to "etch" like tools etc... I have about 20 gallons of it and its still going strong after about a year of use. I have also run evaporust in a ultrasonic cleaner and it works really well.
Here is your missing ingredients - Another way of getting iron dissolving ions to the rust is to use salts instead of acids. Sodium phosphate or sodium sulphate ferric sulphate can be used
Always a good day when Elemental Maker uploads. Love the videos! I'm always checking the channel to see if I missed an upload
I have some WD-40 Rust Remover Soak and whatever it is, it acts similar to Evapo-Rust, but it really does not seem to work as quickly or thoroughly. Evapo-Rust is still the best product I've found for straight rust removal.
I used ascorbic acid in an electrochemical cell with a carbon anode electrode to free up some rusted solid steel, did do a good job on the rust, but of course nothing it could do about the pitting it had gotten. Ascorbic acid as I had a bag that was a few years expired, so not classed as edible, but still good as an organic acid. Also works well to anodise aluminium parts, again with the carbon cathode. Took a few seconds to anodise aluminium nicely, and a few hours with a 12V battery and a 50W lamp in series to get the rust away.
Not that I see Evaporust here, only things for rust removal are acids, and then passivate with phosphoric acid, or use rust remover gels that are acid based.
vinegar needs some table salt, like couple teaspoons for 1l of 10% vinegar, works much more effectively, but the part obviously will develop flash rust much quicker when cleaned, so there is that...
Nice video .
I prefer Citric Acid myself for cost , However for some grades of Cast Iron Do NOT use Citric acid , Hydrochloric , Acetic or Phosphoric acid as it rips out the carbon molecules and softens the surface of the cast iron.
For cast iron probably stick with Vaporust or fermented Mollasses.
For Steel , definitely use Citric or your 4Na -EDTA
Where I live I have to order Evapo rust, and the total comes out to $80 a gallon, its absolutely ridiculous, I now will try this, should save me an incredible amount, thanks!
I wonder if instead of Citric acid that they might be using methylsulfonic acid. You had mentioned a sulfur compound and methylsulfonic acid is used in the recovery of metal salts like iron oxides and zinc. Combined with a chelating agent like EDTA I think it would be pretty effective.
I have a very rusty antique manure spreader I will try this on.
Taking it apart, the majority (not all at once) will fit in the lower half of a 300 gallon IBC.
Soaking to clean the massive rust issues up will actually be worth trying at 75 cents a gallon.
Sodium Bisulphite, commonly known as baking soda is a very useful Industrial Chemical, with numerous applications. It's actually a blend of salts that dissolve in water to produce sodium and bisulfite ion solutions. In Australia they have to make the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) readily available to everyone. The MSDS for Evaporust indicates the active ingredient is Sodium Bi-Sulphate at 3% concentration (also known as Sodium Acid Sulphate or NaHSO4). NaHSO4 is commonly used as a pH decreaser for spas and dissolved in water would be an acidic solution, requiring buffering but perhaps Evaporust is just a mix of 3% Sodium Bi-Sulphate and a small amount of Tetra Sodium EDTA? May be worth another experiment?
So the Australian msds that shows sodium bisulfite is for a different product in the evaporust product line, I think it an aluminum related cleaner. Someone found an old German msds for real evaporust, which it turns out is diammonium polyphosphonate, and sodium oleum sulphonate. Sadly the ammonium compound is impossible to find in quantities less than metric ton orders
@@ElementalMakerI can buy the diammonium over here in Europe, but the sodium oleum sulfonate is impossible to find. It might be my lack of chemistry knowledge, as I can only find US or Chinese sites.
Feels rather frustrating, so close, yet so far away by missing one ingredient.
Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.
Your used white vinegar . I have had better results with Apple cider vinegar. I did my fuel tank that was scale rust on the inside. I put a gallon in it, every hour i turned the 5 gallon tank . To get all surfaces . After 6 hrs all surfaces treated. Flushed it out wit a hose to get the remaining loose scale out. The inside surface was bright clean metal. Nearly 10 years later it still looks almost new inside the diesel tank.
It will eventually attack the underlying metal if the item is left in it for months or a year+. I had some items left in evaporust for like a year and the spring dissolved and the metal files fell apart.
The sulphur pulls the iron atoms away from the chelating agent converting it to a sulphur compound allowing the chelating agent to then remove more rust.
I used to work at Evaporust, and I can tell you that it is made simply of distilled unicorn tears.
Turning machine guys tested EDTA 4Na and EDTA 2Na solutions for rusted drill bits/nozzles/files/nuts/bolts without adding citric acid. 2Na worked almost 4 times faster than 4Na, just like EvapoRust. Solutions were exactly like yours (except citric acid): 100g warm water (~50-60°C), 13-15g EDTA, 1-2g surfactant. Water was warm because EDTA 2Na dissolves harder in cold water. But what surfactant was used i don`t know (pretty sure it was cheap one like liquid soap or dishwashing detergent).
p.s. In my country 1gal of EvapoRust costs ~100$ if you can find it. And 1gal of homemade solution with EDTA 2Na costs ~10$.
I have been wondering if 2Na was effective. How do you find "turning machine guys"?
Wouldn't it perhaps be better to use Sodium Sulfate to titrate the edta back to neutral? This would leave some free sulfur available to form the soluble Ferrous Sulfate compound that may contribute to the fast action of evaporust?
Definitely worth a try!
A 5 lb bag of Tetrasodium EDTA now cost at least twice what it did when this video was done but Evaporust in our area costs about $36 a gallon. So, $1.50 to $2 a gallon isn't bad. Thanks
I recently started cast iron restoration, Great video!
Thank you!
What about a DMSO mix? From Wikipedia: "It is an important polar aprotic solvent that dissolves both polar and nonpolar compounds and is miscible in a wide range of organic solvents as well as water. It has a relatively high boiling point. DMSO has the unusual property that many individuals perceive a garlic-like taste in the mouth after DMSO makes contact with their skin.[5]"
Evaporust GEL TDS:
- 55-65% water
- 20-30% triethanolamine phosphate
- 1-5% aluminium sulphate
- 1-5% citric acid
- 1-5% dipropylene glycol methyl ether
I believe that's a different product from the original evaporust.
@@ElementalMaker correct. As I stated its for their gel. But I think its mostly the same components used. Triethanolamine is often used as a rust inhibinator, fx metal cutting fluid.
Aluminium foil is said to be able to recharge evaporust which makes sense because the Aluminium sulphate possible is used up. You also talked about sulfur.
When adding AlSO4 to water it becomes aluminium hydroxide which makes the water more gel’ly (this is the GEL SDS after all).
Anyways. I think a lot of DIY research has happend since this video came out. Edd China also talks about it in one of his videos where he explaines how it works.
Anyways. Thanks for answering on a 3 year old video. 💪🏻
@@ElementalMaker th-cam.com/video/X6-uxmwn43Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=G9kAmWUrcW7suwl0
@@ElementalMaker th-cam.com/video/mwxwABnAsRU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=SL_Vr7VQHGUkUpnO
@@gamingkingXholy smokes I think your right! I'm shocked that on the standard msds they list it as a trade secret, but on the gel it's listed. That plus the mass spec seems to confirm it. The reason I doubted is because an old German msds listed diammonium polyphosphonate and sodium oleum sulphonate as the ingredients, but maybe the formula changed to a more available chemical or was different for the European market. Either way time to do some more experiments! Thank you bigtime, if I do another video on it I'll be sure to credit you and the mass spec video.
So after all the helpful international investigating over the past two years have we been able do decide on a suitable "organic sulfur compound". Also do you have a recipe using fluid ounces and tablespoons for those of us who don't have scales? Thanks
@ElementalMaker tried your recipe, absolutely fantastic! I am derusting a radiator front panel off a LandRover, one of the few steel parts on the body. This has been sitting in a paddock for who knows how long but a lot of rust. Used a stripper to remove the paint, then created a bath using your recipe. The bath holds just under 20litres. I have left it in for a week and give the reducing rust spots a light wirebrush scrub before returining to the bath. The underlying metal looks like brand new, and this is off a part that is at least 60 years old!
My question to you, whether you know or not, or some other reader might, is do I simply dry off and apply an expoxy primer, or do I need to treat with something else before applying the epoxy primer to properly seal and protect the metal?
Thank you for your comment. I will be cleaning some rusted motorcycle parts soon--including the tank. I hope you got your answer. If memory serves me correctly, sometimes steel processors will pickle their parts in a phorsphoric acid solution after derusting in order to prevent flash rust.
This comment is old but I like to etch bare metal with POR15 metal prep etch, which is essentially a zinc phosphor etch. Spray, leave for 30 mins, rinse off with water, heatgun to dry it quickly.
Muriatic acid works really well, usually in a few minutes. You need to rinse and heat dry the part FAST. and then coat the part with oil or it will rust again in ten minutes.. I use Fluid Film.
I'm guessing it's a lignosulfonate of some kind from what I found while searching. It's an organic byproduct of paper making, a chelating agent, and is listed as smelling like molasses.
Try 50mM EDTA 4Na and 100mM sodium hydrosulfite at pH 7.0 (titrate with citric acid) or you can use 50mM HIDS (biodegradable) and 100mM hydrosulfite at pH 7.0 (titrate with citric acid). You can heat these solutions to 40C to dissolve the components then you can dip rusty iron into it. Taken from a research paper. Hope this helps.
If you sent a sample to an analytical chemistry lab, they could use things like a TGA, FTIR, ICP-OES, to work out what's in it. It would be unlikely to give you the exact composition, but the ICP would probably be able to say "these elements in this ratio" from which you can do some further tests with the FTIR to work out if there's a hydrocarbon in there, which one.
legal trade laws would have to come into play there right? because its a protected formula, once the computer realized what it was, would it just say its private? or would the problem just come in if u attempted to manufacture it?
@@4dirt2racer0 For it to be a protected formula, it would have to be patented, which would legally protect the inventor from others reproducing his solution, as invention takes time, effort, and often money, and we want to reward this investment and allow them to recoup their costs and make a little profit. But the patent is a guide on how to make it, so once that patent is up, anyone can legally sell a cheap knock off. That's why they didn't patent Dr Pepper or the Coca-Cola recipe. They are trade secrets instead. Which means anyone who has information on how it's made is under NDA, but there is nothing you can do to stop someone investing the time and effort into reverse engineering it, hence Pepsi-Cola and the other numerous knock offs.
There's nothing to stop you breaking a patent at home, personally. It's intended to stop people commercially producing your product and taking a cut of your profits before you've recouped your investment.
A lot of the equipment I mentioned works off a data base of "fingerprints" of materials. So it would give a list of potential matches with a percentage match to each. Something like pure ethanol would be easy to identify from boiling point and density, or maybe a gas chromatograph- mass spectrometer (GC-MS). That could also identify combinations of solvents.
I used a GC-MS to analyse what compounds were comprising an odor and it told us a list of the composing compounds. The university I worked with on the project were using similar technology to reverse engineer whisky, they can detect a fake with high quantitative certainty. They were also doing something on the decomposition of a corpse.
@@Leo99929 - doesn't a patent 'just' protect the owner from people profitiing from the patent? If you were to make some equivalent solution entirely for your own use, not sell any on, then are you breaking the law?
@@thosdot6497 Totally! You can make as much for personal use as you like. You just can't sell it. The cost of prosecuting individuals for patent infringement makes it infeasible .
@@Leo99929 - I see that completely as a win-win! Evaporust don't have to bother making the stuff, and I don't have to bother buying it from them!
Fascinating! For an old axe or similar tool, I do 24 hours in vinegar (don’t leave it in until it eats the metal), then hit it with a wire wheel. At this point I can usually see the temper line. Then I do a day or two of electrolysis, wire wheel, then a few days in Evaporust, and final wire wheel. I don’t mind spending a few more days, if my Evaporust is a lot cheaper. 👍
This is excellent! Evaporust is super expensive and weirdly hard to find by me.
Here in Japan, a quart of Evapo-Rust is like >$200 USD!
How does HEAT improve the reaction speed? Also try Oxalic Acid (C2H2O4) and Sulfamic Acid (H3NSO3)
Look up the patent application?
Home made kombucha tea!! Seriously. It's practically free and it works and is not toxic till you dump rusty metal into it. It has a mix of acids that seem to work better than vinegar. It is slow like vinegar.
That's a pretty neat idea to try!
Nice! I know I'm alte to comment but that's gone right into my Maker Tips playlist. Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) is in a lot of soft drinks to make them a bit tart, coca cola I think for one - and I've had a phosphoric acid based "rust passivator" which you use to turn the metal black and not rust again. But a bit got through my rubber glove into a fresh cut and it was DEFIINITELY acidic (ask me how I know...) and so I immediately went to wash off and look up phosphoric acid and found out it's a food ingredient so wasn't likely to end in my slow agonising death. But I'd though it was s rust remover when in fact it converts rust so the best way I found to finish was to roughly wirebrush back thick rust and then apply the H3PO4, give it time to do its thing, and then wash down afterwards. It was also good to wirebrush bare new metal, spray salt and vinegar water over it and let it rust, then hit it with H3PO4 and - black surface that didn't rust again.
One important detail: phosphoric acid DOES NOT attack the underlying base metal. That’s the magic of it: although acid (I think ph of 2?), it reacts with iron OXYDE, not with iron. Hence the fact it is used a lot to protect metal in factories, for instance to make sure base metal isn’t rusting while in stock, before shipping. It also leaves a clean surface that will not rust (while most acids will just cook the surface, leaving pure iron to the surface, which will rust pretty quickly).
Very interesting video though!
Yes phosphoric is uniquely great for steel. I recently started developing a Parkerizing process so I'll probably do a video on that soon.
Ive got more experience with por-15 metal ready, a similar product.
The joy i had when i found out it can be used on bare clean metal to protect it.
Now my stock in the shop stays rust free.
We’ve always used phosphoric acid to clean the inside of carbon steel pipework. It really does a great job, but it’s nasty stuff. What the citric acid did in 8 hours, phosphoric does in 5 minutes...
Anywhere I can find it, Evaporust in Australia is between $60 & $90 per gallon. Gotta love the Australia tax. Probably also answers why people in the US treat aluminium like a throw away material and down here I can't bring myself to use the tiny amount I bought because it cost so much.
If you heat the liquids up the reaction happens much more quickly