Dominion War : Klingon Rot to a Cardassian War
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
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What's up Lore Masters,
In this video, we discuss the beginning of the Klingon-Cardassian War. We first discuss the fall of the Klingon Empire and move into the Cardassian War.
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*chugs Qa'nar with purpose*
*sigh* You made me do this: memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kanar
kek
To your point of the Klingon rot. One of my favorite episodes of "Enterprise" (obviously inspired by "The Undiscovered Country") was "Judgment." Archer's Klingon attorney, also played by J. G. Hertzler, calls the court out on their hypocrisy, and basically accuses them of everything you stated here. Even spoke to Archer in prison about the decline of the empire from it's greatness. I always liked how the empire was called out in-universe.
You really haven't heard the breakdown until you've heard it in it's original klingon.
You really haven't had a mental breakdown until you've had one in the original Klingon.
I always thought the tractor beam caused a sort of prism affect on the Vorcha’s disruptor beam. Bending the beam in a similar way water bends light as it passes through it.
yes it's pushing the disruptor bolt slightly causing it to miss, but only 50% of the time.
it's causing a sort of a gravity type force which in space is not normally present unless you fight near astronomical bodies.
It always confused me that the Klingons have by far the Least Honour of all Races...
@@TentaclePentaclethe Defiant and the Vorcha are moving at high speed, so the probability is higher
I thought. What if the Defiant's cloaking device was an inferior model or even designed to let the Romulans know when it was activated. Having tabs on the Federation's warship would be a big plus.
Haha, that would have been excellent.. it's a shame they didn't consider that in the writing.
James, IIRC it was Bashier who told "Just Plain" Garak this. In the Cold War between the US & the USSR it was called "back channeling" & was a valid tactic for one side to get information to the other that they needed to know...
LMAO at the Preston Jacobs reference. At least they called attention to the retcon and never addressed it again, especially even when the Defiant again illegally used its borrowed Romulan technology after the Dominion-Romulan non-aggression pact.
2:08 the Romulans, when they hear, Starfleet broke the cloaking deal ^^
maybe the non agression pact with the Dominion is the payback?
Wouldn't even surprise me.
The cloak was originally from the Romulans, so I bet the Romulans were carefully keeping their options open with both a non-aggression pact, and letting Defiant keep using the cloaking device
Romulans always play both sides
I would also point out that not a single time after the Romulans join the war the cloaking device is used again, maybe the Federation had to give it back to earn their trust to go into the war, and it happens off screen?
I always got the impression the Romulans were playing both sides and trying to play a potential enemy against mostly a usually overt enemy just by staying mainly out the way like they tried doing early in the war
I absolutely loved the Preston Jacobs reference!
I am surprised and thoroughly loved the Preston Jacobs reference.
It's simple the Tractor Beam doesn't need to pull something in and thus can hold something at distance. It's like attaching a stick to something.
Gotta say, I love the intro/credit scenes on these videos.
The tractor beam isn't pushing or pulling the ship, it is like a flashlight pointed right at the disruptor port of the klingon ship. It's pushing slightly the disruptor bolt causing it to miss the defiant.
Maybe later do a video on the Jem'hedar civil war.
I think one thing they deliberately did to make it look like Bashir was captured long before he was found in the Dominion prison was Changling Bashir was wearing the new grey shoulder blue undershirt uniform where as Bashir in the prison was wearing the blue shoulder Voyager style uniform. And also there is the fact that the Dominion are experts at memory manipulation by way of locking people inside of simulations in a computer. He could have been captured at the same time as Martok, locked in a mental simulation where the Dominion would learn his secrets by monitoring his day to day activities, then bring him out of the simulation by simulating his capture and then he wakes up in a prison cell, thus making the illusion to him that he was only there for a month.
10:03 I wore out my VHS tape of that episode.
Ah, the first battle of DS9, where we learn that federation torpedoes only fly in straight lines and can often miss the broad side of a Neg'var.
It's typical Dukat when he beams on to the Defiant first and then the council after him.
6:45 Hey, that's a nice lamp. You should ask Linkara to review it.
6:43 And this is why we love LoreReloaded. Referencing Lorerunner’s “Winds of Change Era” for TNG. Guest appearance by Preston’s “Shade of the Lamp.” Giving credit to both and still showing his own, original and intriguing content.
Oh, hello shade of the lamp
Of course the Romis didn't care, they might be - as Worf says - without honor, but they also are pragmatic! If something weakens the other powers that rival them (like the Klingons!), then they are turning a blind eye (if they even knew that the Defiant used the cloak that time!)
Can you make a video about the Klingon invasion of Cardassia , it’s atrocities and its implications on how it made the Klingons seem genocidal because personally I’ve noticed that a lot of Klingon fans don’t really talk about the invasion. Plus how Klingon commanders boasted about killing hundreds of thousands of people not to mention civilian officials.
Maybe the modulation was switching between pulling and pushing. A targeting computer wouldn't be prepared for "wobbly" conditions like that and it would be much more difficult for a manual gunner as well.
The tractor beam deflects the particles emitted by the distruptor, making its aim worse, it' s not affecting the actual ship. :)
The image shows it projected onto the ship which makes it weird then..least look weird
It might be worth mentioning that just before the outbreak of the Klingon/Cardassian war the Cardassians had undergone a drastic political shift to a civilian government. This almost certainly would have put the military on the down-slope while it struggled with the new regime trying to establish power. The Central Command may have been capable of repelling a Klingon invasion in the first two seasons of DS9.
Yea..i discussed this last episode
Well the Dominon may have exploited this fester of the Klingons but I remember a certain Trill in an episode that helped a certain important Klingon sorta fix this later, least he set the Empire on a road to something of a reasonably progressive recovery.
An that Tractor beam Defiant used... it seems to act something like having one half of a chain and handcuffs on you. Then tossing the other half on your opponent to lock them in place. BUT that chain seems to be capable of going rigid, perhaps maybe that it's more one those solid connectors bars instead, maybe, if that makes sense
I would have sent Worf and Odo to a Federation internment camp until this whole matter was over
I have one question, what if Voyager was Galaxy class starship not the Intrepid they will be better or worse in that situation.
Imagine a Romulan Warbird in the same situation. They use a singularity engine so any mass can be used for fuel supply. Let alone what they could do with a much more powerful cloak-capable ship can do
The "Discovery Era"? You mean the era that takes place in an entirely different universe (Prime) from the original and therefore has no real bearing on the events in DS9?
Its the same universe actually
@@LoreReloaded it's just "classified' totally justifies STD terrible writing right? yeah no
@@zuzoscorner moving of the goal post. Agreed the writing is sub par..still apart of the universe alas..we agree on its acumen though
@@paulrasmussen8953 they didnt.. but if you like fiction..believe what ua want
@@paulrasmussen8953 ...nooooo
the laptop scene is funny i thought my PC was buffering.LOL
keep the videos coming love the lore videos
The Romulans wouldn't care about Sisko using the cloak, because it gives them what they wanted for years the Federation & Klingons to war.
The Klingons fought the Romulans under Kor, and seemed to do well. There is also an earlier clash with the Cardies mentioned
The Betreka Nebula incident.
Looking at this in 2022, a fair amount of similarity in today's time
love your videos but you need to try and so something about all the vocal sibilance in the audio makes it really hard to listen to for someone like me with hearing damage.
I need to re-watch the episode, but from what I can see in your footage, I would imagine that the tractor beam is holding the Vor'cha in place relative to the Defiant. So both pushing and pulling at the same time. Though, why didn't they simply use it to throw themselves behind the Vor'cha, and taking it out completely?
Hey there I was just tonight re-watching "In purgatory's shadow" and when Martok asked Worf his name and Worf replied.. he stated that he had heard of Worf.. That would mean that the Martok Changeling had replaced Martok prior to Way of the Warrior. I cannot remember if you had stated that Martok had been replaced after Way of the Warrior or not but according to the statement and according to Martok not recognizing Worf it would appear that the Changelings had been inside the Empire for a fair bit.
If memory serves, Martok was captured two years before Worf & Garak, so mid season 3. You're right that the Changeling had been in place for a while. They almost certainly started sending infiltrators straight after "The Search" part 2... in fact it wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of them were on the Defiant for the trip home. When Odo orders that the crew be given back their combadges - what if the combadges were Changelings? Or just as likely, there were Changelings examining the ship while the crew were in the brain sim, and they shapeshifted into random bits of equipment. We may never know.
The problem I have with Bashier being a changeling at this time is that we literally see Bashier be impersonated (for lack of a better term) by a Changeling in an earlier episode, so why would the Changeling impersonate of their own?
In the thumbnail shouldn’t martoks eye patch be on the other side?
If Changelings were on the Detapa Council, The Changeling Martok would not have advocated for the war and risked the lives of the Cardassian Changelings.
If they wanted to ensure the war went through..same could have been said for the romulan changeling or the changeling with the Tzenkethi... they have a way of surviving
Huh. I hadn't realized how shady Martok actually was before the episode he was revealed in.
I was surprised to but when i started analyzing..it was there
It always confused me that the Klingons have by far the Least Honour of all Races...
Good Day Lore what's up? I miss the Dominion War, Did you hear the Section 31 Show will be like Mission Impossible yay.
They really shouldn't explore that stuff. Ruins the mystery but STD destroyed Section 31.
1. cloaking device is just not a big deal.
the thing with blood testing changelings, as grandpa sisko said "suck out someones blood and let it out on cue" (as impostor martok did), the blood could be tested for DNA and freshness (blood being held inside a changeling would be older than fresh blood, identifiable by tricorder scan).
so blood testing would still work - you just have to scan the blood to see if a) it came from the person before you (DNA), and b) it is fresh (not carried around inside a changeling for days)
by these tokens, skin samples would work too, scratch someone lightly to get skin cells under you nails and scan, because a changeling wouldn't leave skin cells under your nails at all - if they did they would immediately turn to goo!
seems to me skin testing would be easier - it could be done several times a day quite easily, and harder for a changeling to fake because they would have to permanently cover themselves with their impersonations skin, not knowing where on the body they would be asked to donate from (arm/leg/neck/face).
Watched the ds9 documentary "what we left behind". It was interesting but they were shamelessly plugging for an eighth season.
Great work as always, but I have a question. How can the tractor beam make contact with the Vorcha class cruiser in the first place? Would they not have had their shields up? And as we have seen, Borg tractor and adaptation beams HIT the shields of a ship before adapting and ultimately collapsing said shields. But I guess this little scientific anomaly is just forgotten or just does not deserve to be addressed, what do you guys think?
Thats a good point.. i mean maybe they modulated it to deal with the shields due to worf and the alliance.. But Im not sure
@@LoreReloaded You know I forgot about the knowledge that Worf may have possessed. I would mention his brother Kern, but he does not show up until a few episodes later. He (Worfs' brother) could have given him shield frequencies etc... but again perhaps it was just Klingon underestimation of Federation ingenuity and technical skill, especially in battle!
I'm wondering about the circumstances of Martok's capture. Yes, the Martok we see pushing Galron to hit DS9 is most likely a changeling but the real Martok that we know is nothing like the one we are introduced to. This one is a war monger, a straight talker most of the times but cunning when needed (like when he helped Sisko and his team break out of prison after being captured on a mission to expose who they thought was Galron the changeling), and lacking honor like the TOS Klingon villains most of us know. But the real Martok is nothing like that, his sense of honor and duty to the Empire is second only to Worf. Most Klingons may not notice the difference so replacing him might have been just that easy, but it's weird how such a wide change of xharacter of a high ranking officer didn't raise any eyebrows. Unless the changeling influenced Martok to lay the foundation of his eventual replacement.
Hell. Martok's wife didn't know that the changeling wasn't Martok.
Sisko should have honestly been hung for this. He defied direct orders to commit an act of war against an ally. And started a war between the federation and klingons that killed alot of star fleet and federation citizens.
His curiosity could have only possibly been redeemable if he had confronted Martok in person after returning to DS9 and handed over the council members after having tested them if they were changlings or not. And told Martok to his face that the answer to the question had far reaching implications to both the Federation and the Klingons, that if their council had been infiltrated, it would indicate a willingness/ ability on behalf of the changlings to involve themselves in Alpha Quadrant politics and to subvert their governments. (Note that at this time there would be no reason to believe Martok wasn't really Martok)
This would have still allowed his actions to have been arguable to be in defense of their allies as well as in the interest of the federation rather than an outright act of war and betrayal.
I hated Way of the Warrior. Sisko's reasoning not only to interfere with a conflict that is none of their concern but to side with former enemies against current allies is beyond stupid.
Miles O Brien said that by sitting by and doing nothing, the Federation becomes the next target when the Klingons would never EVER do that to their allies. The only reason they DID do it was because of how badly Sisko damaged Federation Klingon relations. And this doesn't bother the fans. Oh but Benny shot torpeedoes at a planet once. Hang him high. Choosing Gray Hitler over the cool Space Vikings lets him off scott free.
If the Klingons invaded and conquered Cardassia, they would need a massive occupational force to quash any and all resistance and attacking the Federation immediately after would spread their fleets out way too thin.
Starfleet should have let the whole thing blow over and have taken the time to build more warships. Both to prepare better for the Dominion War and to flex at the Klingons. Plus gul Dukat would be executed which would warrant Kira to open a specific wine bottle.
I think this whole thing was done by the writers to hit the reset button. Especially after I learned what was originally planned for S4's opening. Not only did it unnecessarily make the Klingons bad guys again but it also took away Worf's honor...again.
I always wondered why the Vor'cha didn't use photon torps when in the tractor beam? ( Makes military sense, but then the Defiant and crew would be destroyed) Hmm
Who knows what effect a tractor beam would have on a torpedo?
It could detonate instantly and blowing a huge hole in the Vorcha or something.
I suspect a Pakled just disliked this.
Detapa Council doesn't sound right... Me thinks it's Detapa Consul...
Is the book recommendation sold anywhere other than amazon US because it's not available in the UK.
Looking into it
Try here: www.amazon.co.uk/Rise-Forgotten-Farthest-Star-Book-ebook/dp/B07RN2RN9B/
always fun to see the defiant change size over and over... tiny next to some medium sized ships, then similar size to attack cruiser's main bulk... oh my.
Especially when they sometimes make it look like the size of ds9's pylon
Must be a prottype Tartis. i mean i t DID time travel once.
It plumps up when you shoot at it, or squeeze it real hard.
This needs to be said, at this point I feel like you're purposely mispronouncing words to troll people. Synopesis? Really?
Maybe the way you thought it was supposed to be said.. was a lie all along
@@LoreReloaded You could say that, but I won't buy it.
SW clone troopers vs Jem'Hadar on the ground. WHO WINS?!
Jem' Hadar with eas
Jem Hadar have personal cloaks, almost as good of marksmanship, superior close-quarters equipment and training, and don't need to sleep. This isn't even close
@@Cyber_Elf_Elpizo True but those Starfleet guys on AR-337 beat them with a lot less.
Hudson Doty clones kill Jedi so you have to take that into account
@@christiannewaye7306 they are both super elite soldiers literally bred for war. In a ground battle the clonetroopers would have a fair chance of victory. In space? ZERO.
Lore, do you not like DS9? From this video it doesn't seem like you do. Am I misinterpreting you?
Why would you think i dont?
Calling out the plot holes in something doesn't mean you don't enjoy it. Sometimes we just enjoy nitpicking too.
@@LoreReloaded You just seemed really super critical in a way that sounded like the show wasn't well made in your opinion, even though you didn't state that directly. Do you feel that DS9 is a weak(er) Star Trek series?
@@Doncroft1 last time I checked Lore was just about same nitpicky about all trek in existance.....
Being super critical of something, doesn't mean you don't like it. Infact, I think ds9 is the best series in the franchise, I think TAS is the worst - barely beating out Discovery.. I can tell you far, far more about ds9's failures then I ever could about either of those.
Additionally, the theme of my channel is 'a discussion with a guy on the internet'. I'm not just a lore channel. If that were the case you can go to Spacedock, Trekyards, or Echkhartsladder.. I call it as i see it and have fun with the material.
For me, I just don't equate criticism, even heavy criticism, with hatred or a dislike of a product. If anything, most who are so critical are probably either very into the product or into the money.. My two cents.
Hope that clears it up, if not, let me know.
Please wear shoes next time. Otherwise thx 👍
What I don't understand is when the shields are down why not have the Klingons beam onboard. Those Vor'cha class vessels can have crews of over 1900 onboard, mostly consisting of fully armed soldiers. The Defiant had at most on board 50 crew and a few dozen council members. So the Klingons would outnumber somewhere between 19-1 and 38-1. If they had transporter jammers in place, it would prevent beaming over of the Cardassians so they can''t be in place. So I can only assume the commander of the Klingon vessel is a friggin idiot.
Because a QT would destroy it with shields down to beam
Because they'd take the Defiant, kill Sisko and crew, and win. Show's over with a villainous victory and our plucky protagonists all dead. Can't have that (much as I'm sure some would love to see it).
@@martindevon3204 Possibly, but we also seen in canon many times before where they couldn't fire even a photon torpedo from close range as it would destroy the firing vessel too. Quantum torpedos are even more powerful, and looking at that scene they are about maybe 200 metres apart. I just don't see the armour really providing that much of a benefit
Syn "nope" sis? LOL. Try synopsis, as in "syn OP sis", OP not "ope".
Dominion lies
after awhile the Klingons became everyone else attack dogs