Prefer the true reason for the Bird of Prey's time travel capability in Star Trek 4 as Kruge having knowledge of Doc Brown's flux capacitor technology. :)
You made a mistake. I knew that even before Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out that it was canon that the Romulans gave the Cloaking technology to the Klingons in exchange for the D-7 warbirds. In TOS, the Klingons did use the newly gained Cloaking technology but it was never put on the screen. If you researched or watched, the Enterprise Incident. As per Memory Alpha: [ In "The Enterprise Incident", Spock specifically mentions the encountered Romulan cruisers to be of Klingon design. This, as well as the fact that, around the same time, the Klingons once again used ships with cloaking capability, a technology previously thought unique to the Romulans, led to speculations about a short-lived Romulan-Klingon alliance.]
Julius Smith The existence of a "Romulan-Klingon alliance" in the 23rd century has never been explicitly stated. In "The Enterprise Incident", all that is said is that "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design." The Making of Star Trek (finished during the early part of the third season of TOS) does say, however, that the intention at the time was to have the Klingons and Romulans form an alliance against the Federation. In developing Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Harve Bennett originally wrote the film with the Romulans as the belligerents, whose vessel was designated the "Bird-of-Prey", but later rewrote the Romulans as Klingons, as they were determined to be more exciting. After having "Klingicized" the characters in the film, he decided to keep the vessel designation intact. Recalling his two-month binge watching of every episode of Star Trek that existed then (when TOS was the only live-action series), Bennett said, "I didn't change their ship, because I remembered a piece of trivia that stated there was a mutual assistance military pact between the Klingons and the Romulans for an exchange of a military equipment." (Starlog #103, February 1986, p. 17) In TNG: "The Neutral Zone", Worf says the Romulans "killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies." This incident occurred in 2346 and would require that the two races be both blood enemies and allied powers at the same time. In TNG: "Reunion", Riker says, in response to a suggestion that the Klingons and Romulans are working together, "A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans?" By saying "new", he implies that there was an "old" one at some point. The two powers were "blood enemies" for seventy-five years prior to the episode, so any former alliance would most likely have had to have ended prior to that. The Battle of Klach D'kel Brakt in 2271, mentioned in DS9: "Blood Oath", might have been at or near that end of the alliance, as it took place twenty-one years prior to them being described as "blood enemies".
The whole reason for ALL of this confusion is because the original series creators got a little lazy and used the same D-7 model for both races... just to save money. They were notorious for cost-cutting measures... Commodore Decker's ship, the Constellation, was actually a store bought model of the Enterprise that they put together and just changed the decals to say NCC-1017.
@@stephenherbertson4544 They didn't use the Klingon D-7 for the Romulans to cut costs - they did it because the original Romulan Warbird model was destroyed in a warehouse fire. It was too expensive to create another model prop.
The story line per Richard Arnold (assistant to Gene Roddenberry) is that the story was originally using Romulan ships. Due to time, the script, and the lack of stock footage of Romulans ships. It was easier to tweak the story than to create a Romulan ship model.
Anybody who argues for the strictest possible definitions of current canon (which typically excludes things that _were_ canon in 1984 and earlier) frankly wasn't alive in 1984...
Gary XHLC should have been. It was a great time to be alive! Since many of us were, we care. If you go back and watch the older shows in sequence and read the older books, wouldn’t you like consistency and things to make sense?
I remember when Star Trek III was being released, someone (director, producer, or Roddenberry.....I don't remember who) commenting on the making of the movie explained that the original villain was supposed to be the Romulans, and the Bird Of Prey was supposed to be theirs, but (for some reason) they thought the Klingons would make a "tougher" enemy, so they gave them the Romulan ship (which had already been built) and just said it was Klingon. I guess they never figured that decades later people would still be having this conversation. LOL.
In the original series, when they couldn't use the Romulan model, they had the decency to tell you that the "Romulars are using Klingon design!" All they had to do was call it a "Romulan BoP" and add these two lines: Kirk: "What are you doing in a Romulan ship?" Kruge: "I borrowed it, and now, I'll have yours."
Originally, the film was to open on a Klingon fleet waiting for Kruge, who had stolen the new Romulan ship for the Empire, but in the process he had found out about Genesis, so he was retasked to steal Genesis / destroyed the fleet to keep the ship so he can steal Genesis and claim the glory.
My beef with Discovery is mainly due to what they've done with Klingons - both visually (the looks of the people and the looks of their ships) and culturally (turning a violent, yet sophisticated culture into a band of savages). I could live with the space tardigrade (although it seemed like a dr Who crossover). I actually liked the mirror universe story arch. But what they've to Klingons is unforgivable.
There is an easier explanation for Klingon cloaking device. Klingons and Romulans were always adversaries, so when Romulans developed cloak technology, so klingons did as well to keep up. This is why, in real world, Soviet space shuttle looks like American shuttle.
I seem to recall in "The Enterprise Incident" that, when the Klingon design is seen used by Romulans, there is some mention made that the Romulans received the design from the Klingons in exchange for cloaking technology?
Lots of good info from the old FASA rpg and simulator games(non computer). According to the tech manuals the klingon BOP from that era was a Romulan design.,the S-11. And it was all Canon per Paramount. Great video!
Exactly. FASA was canon. It had approval from Roddenberry and Paramount. We talk about Star Wars saying a big F U to all of their "canon" writings with the advent of TFA but Star Trek did it first. They gutted what was a phenomenally fleshed out setting, disregarding all which was cannon previously without a backwards glance.
The history behind the Klingon/Romulan weapons treaty is thus... The episode that shows Romulans using Klingon ship designs is thus... Because in the filming of the episode they broke the only Romulan ship model they had, and did not have the time to make another. So they used the Klingon model, made up the Weapons Treaty, and Worf was born... Well his plot later in the next series that is. P.S. Discovery pisses on the franchise, fuck you CBS
now this is what i remember from the 80s about the Klingon Bird of Prey....The Klingon's got a scoutship version and some old cloaking devices from the Romulans and the Klingon's loved them so much they made a Frigate version of it and when the Romulans saw it it made them a little nervous and they started more in to developing newer ships and this was done before the first Star Trek Movie so it is a Romulan design the klingons just kept the look of it changing the color some times.
It's weird but even though it has the feather patterns on it's "wings", i always felt it looked far more klingon than romulan in it's design. With the more rough look of the ship and the obvious visible weopons, the red torpedoes and so on, i never had any trouble believing this ship was thoroughly klingon in design. Romulan ships always had this smoothness and a high tech feel to them and a certain "winged elegance" in their design. The b'rel and k'vort completely lack this smoothness and elegance and therefore it never crossed my mind this was intended as a a romulan ship. Personally i don't think it would have worked very well as a romulan ship, but it does work great as a klingon ship. I think the compromise of a thoroughly klingon design (agressive and rough look, with prominent weapons and red detailing) with romulan influences (wing pattern and cloaking capabilities) in a time of technological exchange makes more sense to fit it into canon.
So there was an old magazine called Stardate and in Volume 3 Number 3 they published a section called Jaynz Ships of the Galaxy. In this issue they list a Romulan variant of the L-42 BOP called the V-24 Great Bird. There's also a nice story background on how it was created to combat the Klingons placement of the L-42s on the Romulan Klingon border only a few years after the tech exchange that gave them to the Klingons. Fun stuff.
I would tend to think that the birds of prey , since they were shown as Klingon first in the movies , we're built and sold two romulans who put their own tech inside .
Again thanks for resurrecting FASA’s version of Star Trek. I remember back then wishing for more series more movies more background and the possibilities were nothing but open. With the stuff hinted at in FASA’s product everything look golden for the future! And now we have Star Trek discovery, I have no idea what to say about except that FASA’s version was far better!
I recall as a kid watching “The Enterprise Incident”, the TOS episode which featured Klingon warships used by Romulans, and thinking that was a sufficient excuse as to why the Klingons had a Bird of Prey, just as the Romulans did in “Balance of Terror”. I recalled reading somewhere way back then, that the two empires had a technology exchange, somewhere in the TOS era.
You are correct, the Romulans were using Klingon design in that episode. I believe this was done because the romulan ship shown in the TOS was small. The use of the Klingon ship allowed for multiple decks and for Captain Kirk to wonder around the halls in search of the cloaking device. In the other romulan ship, this would be nearly impossible as that ship was tiny in comparison. It would make sense the would reuse the klingon model instead of making a new expensive model.
As I recall in 1980 (prior to the third motion picture) the K'tinga class cruiser had a dual line of plates on the upper part of the boom that blue prints described as "Cloaking Device Field Generators".
FASA's timeline and explanations make the most sense of ANYTHING put out to date. The show runners and movie makers are all over the board. FASA did the best job of tying things together between TOS and movies through ST IV.
No no...It probably never will be unless they put someone like me in the effects department lol. Thats fine because it means I can do with it what I will!!
The Winged Defender is a stupid childish design. Building a ship that mimics a bird seems very un Romulan. They're more sophisticated than that. I doubt if it's ever going to be made canon.
+Resurrected Starships Nope. I think it's really half assed and childish. FASA basically needed a bunch of designs and needed them quickly. It's like they just took the image of a hawk stooping with it's talons extended and turned into a ship by adding warp nacelles and weapons. As a design, it has no elegance. A design like the D'deridex is evocative of a bird of prey, but it's symbolic.
I used to play the board game circa 1981/82. In the board game, I recall the Romulans had been provided warp drive sections for their Birds of pray by the Klingons. I kinda remember it being said in the board game that either the Romulans did not have warp drive tech, or it was not as good as Klingon tech. You are right, in exchange, the Klingon's got the cloaking tech. As an aside in the game, the big Klingon cruisers had more shields in the rear than the front. It was funny to have a Klingon commander attack you while backing towards you, lol!
In Roddenberry's books, the impetus for the saucer was supposed to signify a shield, which reinforced the more defensive purpose of it's mission to explore not fight.
I do not remember him saying that but it is possible. The Khitomer incident was never fleshed out fully but it occured well into the 24th century. But I've gotten the impression that the Romulans had a serious falling out with the Klingons at some point before Star Trek VI - perhaps in response to the Federation-Klingon peace talks spearheaded by Kurzon Dax.
It could just be a matter of semantics. Perhaps the Romulans and Klingons were once enemies, then made a short-lived alliance for whatever reason (or "fake" alliance, knowing how back-stabbing Romulans of the era were), and the Romulans used it as a chance to Pearl Harbor the Klingons. So they were always enemies, but they were "supposed to be" allies.
My idea is this: the 22nd century BoP was infact NOT a BoP. It was a Klingon ship design that would later become the BoP. During the Romulan-Klingon tech exchange the Romulans found this old but effective design and liked it. So they decided to collaborate with the Klingons to create their equivalent of the Europanzer or Eurofighter based on that design. Then much like the Europanzer project they never reached a complete agreement on what tech to use. The Klingons probably wanted to use photon torpedos and anti-matter engines while the Romulan would have preferred to use plasma torpedos and singularity engines. At the end we got both Klingons and Romulans using a similar design outfitted with different weapons and other systems.
I like that! I also should note that the torpedo used in STIII by the BoP are not like any torpedo we have seen before. They might not be photon torpedoes at all. I am not sure that they are plasma torpedoes in the same way of Balance of Terror (TOS), but they could be a plasma variant.
Paint the B'Rel in the same grey as tu the 23rd century Romulan Warbird. Paint its feather pattern in gold. Give it a better cloak device. There you go.
I have a different explanation for you. Time Travel. The TREK universe not only has time travel but such can change history--and there is a lot of time travel going on. This cannot be without impact. Look at "City on the Edge of Forever." Spock and Kirk spent weeks in 1930s New York, their presence subtly changing the flow of foot traffic in the city. They purchased and ate food that originally involved money used by someone else, and the food consumed by someone else. They stole clothes that originally were not stolen. Tiny changes, you say? Consider the US Civil War if a Confederate officer had not lost his tobacco pouch, inside of which were General Lee's battle plans for an upcoming battle. Because that battle ended up as a Union victory, it allowed Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shutting off all aid from France or Britain to the South (since the Proclamation defined the war as one against slavery). That is but one example. The accumulation of tiny changes from countless time travelers across thousands of years from thousands of species would certainly mean a constant shifting of history on pretty much every world. All the time. This neatly accounts for all the inconsistencies with all the different TREK series and films. History is literally different between shows. Sometimes between episodes!
MacClellan never put that information to use. He sat on his hands for an entire day before moving out. He then waited another day after forcing the South Mountain passes, buying time for AP Hill to rejoin Lee, arriving just in time to stop Burnsides attack as it began to approach Lee's rear. Bad example to use.
It's a good explanation, but we could argue about how plastic a franchise like Star Trek could be with continuity in relation to how satisfying story/episode/series plots will be in the long run. It's like....Dr.Who. If Dr.Who can save the planet almost every single episode with some sort of deus ex machina moment, why care about whichever low-budget, unimaginative alien invader type invades in any given episode? If the time travel story element in Star Trek can explain continuity errors and other ill-planned production choices, why care about continuity at all? I'm not saying it's a black and white effect, there's certainly a spectrum here, but I think at least giving an honest try at a canon storyline gives Star Trek more popularity and cultural impact than franchises that...don't.
There is a competing theory of time travel changes. It goes that all the changes to history that are ever going to be made have already happened and we're in the final form. Douglas Adams- Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy.
Reason for Starfleet saucer designs: Forbidden Planet is prefederation earth starfleet history. As warp engines became larger and more powerful they were moved to the outside of the saucer, and eventually attached to a secondary hull
@strontiumXnitrate no, continuity is a myth created by you and other small minded non creators. I will say this very clearly for you... even within the holiest portion of the franchise TOS there is absolutely no continuity to be found. None, not even within season 1. Gene and crew threw away "canon" with practically every new episode. They changed anything they wanted to because the next story is always more important than the last. How could you expect DSC to be consistent with TOS when TOS isn't consistent its self? You cant include any one piece of canon from TOS without pissing on three other contradictory pieces of canon.
Star Trek was designed as a TV series with internal consistency, as opposed to shows that are frequently rebooted or even take pleasure in creating deliberate continuity errors. During The Original Series' three seasons from 1966 to 1969 there was no obvious canon policy, like there was no particular attention to inter-episode continuity either. *But as the fictional universe kept growing, it was necessary to come up with rules what has to be taken into account by future writers (the canon), as well as with a collection of such canon data for reference (The Star Trek Encyclopedia and its forerunners that may have existed behind the scenes, and did exist such as the various series “writer’s bibles”.)* *The knowledge about canon may even have a quite beneficial impact on storylines. A prominent example is DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" with its slavish adherence to the canon events of TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles". Another one is the Vulcan arc of ENT: "The Forge", "The Awakening" and "Kir'Shara" that successfully removes a previous continuity error concerning Vulcan Mind Melds from canon. These episodes are commonly said to be among the most creative and most enticing installments of all Star Trek.* *Keeping events in new episodes compliant with canon was a quality mark of the show until the end of Star Trek Enterprise in 2005.* Discovery ignores canon while attempting to rewrite it at the same time.
When I was a wee trekker it was always rumoured that the Klingon ships were bought Romulan ships, as Klingons themselves were not engineers capable of building such things. This was part of the reason why the federation, and the Vulcans were at odd with the renegade Romulans and unable as well as unwilling to interact with the primitive war culture of the Klingons. It's a great history and would be a great series, if only paramount could get its shit together.
Um, you all know that Star Trek is not a documentary right? I was at a convention in 1979, when Gene Roddenberry was asked "how many Enterprise sized ships are in the Federation?". "As many as we need for any given episode" was the answer. This stuff is all made up to make an interesting show, not follow a precise timeline or tech tree. If you want consistency you have to have a single writer. Just enjoy the show. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Discovery, I'll never watch it. The Orville, I will watch with great enthusiasm.
ever hear a sports-talk show? thousands of people talking about how a game shoud go will go would have gone this season last season next season? just another form of entertainment (possibly more scripted than star trek) but no one thinks discussing that's a complete waste of time.
Look, we all watch it because we are entertained by it. That's the whole point of star trek as a medium. What we're dealing with here, is rationalising inconsistencies, so it'll help maintain the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy it. You just have a higher tolerance to inconsistencies. An example is Mortal Engines and the complete disregard to the square cubed law. Would big traction-cities make sense in the real world? Not at all, but the book series is consistent in how it handles them.
I had the same idea as you, years ago, that the BOP was a hybrid of Romulan and Klingon technologies. It's the only way to explain away the clear Romulan influence in the design. The only thing that lets it pass as Klingon is the long neck. The rest of the design overlays the Romulan T'liss almost perfectly. It could also be, that while the Romulans helped build the B'rel BOP, they may have quickly diverted from use of the design, if they had recently developed Singularity warp cores. This new source of power may not have been compatible with the Hybrid design, and so the Romulans ended up taking a completely different design approach for their ships, that they kept secret from their Klingon allies. It may also be, that after the 2 empires developed the BOP, the Klingons broke their alliance and stole the prototype, hoping to gain a tactical advantage over both the Romulans and Federation. And so the Romulans never got to benefit from their collaboration efforts of the ship. And the Klingons just kept building more, to rub in in the Romulan's faces. There are many reasons that could be given as to why the Klingons have a Romulan looking ship, that would make for an interesting story, but for some reason it's never tackled on the show. It's a shame, really.
Something that sci-fi rarely seems to touch on, but happened a lot in real life, is the idea of stealing other people's tech. In the age of sail, when building ships was a massive undertaking, Prize was implemented in part to encourage the capture of enemy vessels, rather than destroying them. As a result, you would see the British Royal Navy operating French or Spanish ships, and likewise for other nations. If the Klingons and Romulans went to war, it makes sense they would steal each other's ships. Even if they didn't use those ships, they would use some of the tech. The Federation may have rules against the use of disruptors or cloaking devices, but the Klingons and Romulans have no such rules.
I played the FASA Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator game in the 80's. I also bought the supplementary material that includes additional ships for the Federation, Klingon and Romulan fleets. I recall reading about the technology exchange. There were so many cool ship designs in those books. Too bad none of it made it to any of the shows. The NX class ships from Enterprise reminds me of the Loknar class frigate.
Thanks for the video, the Klingon Bird of Prey is my favorite ship out of all the sci fi ships. I like your theory it makes sense, in the TNG episode Timescape Data says the Romulans use a mini singularity for their warpcores. This would be like the Federation and the Klingons running around in ships with V6 motors while the Romulans run around in V8 motor powered ships, this would explain why the Romulans had enough power to run a cloaking device and why the Klingons couldn't get it to work at first, thus further supporting your theory. Also in the Enterprise show its pointed out that the Vulcans say they don't lie when they lie all the time, the Federation say they don't believe in radical intelligence agencies but have Section 31 and the Klingons say they fight with honor when they really fight dirty, thus why they wanted the cloaking technology
I agree with a trade deal to explain the D7s, because they are almost identical. I seem to remember it being mentioned that Klingon's developed their cloak technology, but that could've been a non-canon book I read. However, saying that the BoP is a Romulan ship doesn't make sense to me... just because it was originally going to be Romulans in the movie and it has a feather design on the wing. The Klingons may have seen this and though "Ooooh, that's cool! Let's do that!" The Romulans don't really have anything that looks like the B'rel class, but to me it fits with the Klingon design aesthetic a lot more. Just my opinion of how it's been in my head canon since I started watching Trek in the late 80s.
As mentioned below, FASA attempted to make sense of movies (which wasn't always easy) and postulated an alliance between the Klingons and Romulans (somewhat short lived) which resulted in the Romulan bird of prey being swapped to the Klingons in exchange for D6 hulls from the Klingons. This was based on the "their power is simple impulse" phrase in Balance of Terror, implying that the Romulans didn't have FTL drives. Of course the problem with this was that it seem unlikely that the romulans could have broken away from Vulcan without a FTL drive. But by FASA's lore, this gave the Romulans a first rate FTL drive and the Klingons a great small combatant that they took to so thoroughly that they made 3 versions. As is often the case, Enterprise tended to break the timeline in more than one way (Borg, cloaks, etc.) so who knows what really happened. Note that in Star Fleet Battles the early Romulan warbirds WEREN'T capable of FTL flight in battle. But they did have a big ass weapon that went faster than any ship could go in combat. I like this lore myself. I enjoy your video very much and think it may be a good compromise. As far as Romulan ships in FASA, my favorite was the Romulan Battleship which I thought was very graceful and powerful looking.
"Warbird" and "Bird Of Prey" are two different Spaceship Designs. In the Original STAR TREK TV Series, the First Romulan Contact was with a Pre-Warp Warship Design. Basically, a Saucer with Nacelles on the sides. The Second Contact with Romulans had the same Warship Design; but, the Warship was Warp Capable. After that, Klingons and Romulans utilized the same Cruiser Designs and Destroyer Designs; but, they had different technologies. The main difference between Klingon Warships and Romulan Warships is that Romulans paint Bird Wing Details on their "Engine Pylons". This was true even for "The First Contact" and "The Second Contact" Romulan Warships. Thus, Klingons and Romulans were collaborators back in the Original STAR TREK TV Series. Between 1995 and 1997, I played STAR FLEET BATTLES Volume #3. Using the Custom Ship Design Rules, I modified a Klingon/Romulan Cruiser to have Maulers. I also give it a Fighter by removing 1 or 2 Administrative Shuttles. So...In the STAR FLEET BATTLES Volume #3 Game, my Warship was first assumed to be Klingon, or Romulan; but, after some analysis and further contact, my warship was actually defined as being Opposite. I forget the details; because, I'm not a Trekkie; and, I had lost the Paperwork.
it'a possible that the Bird of prey was designed by the romulins and traded it to the klingons for tech or resources. The klingons, not being the best original thinkers, took the design and just made cosmetic changes and built them amass.
+ringleader61 I wouldn't say they just did cosmetic designs but more of they approached the design, implemented more military capability to it (more firepower, efficnet power to facilitate firepower, sturdier designs, and etc) and then amassed them. Improving a design can just be as good as thinking of an entirely new one
And still.... Nobody has ever explained the federation philosophy on the use of a saucer dish main hull. Matt jeffries said originally it was a sphere but didn't look right and so flattened it. But what is the in universe explanation for this design?????
“Tradition”? NX series all had saucer dish main hulls.. they worked and were adequate for the engineering task at hand and so Starfleet continued to use them. An “If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality
What iff....there is some kind of supercollider running through the saucer with the collision point near the impulse drive? Perhaps this is how they create the exotic matter required to achieve warp drive. Just thinking out-loud :D Could be problems with this theory since not all saucers are really round.
The saucer is an oversized rescue boat. so when your warpcore is starting to malfunction and is going to explode you have the possibility to rescue most if not all of the personal. Since all personal on a Spaceship are fully trained + life itself has a huge status in the fed the saucer makes sense. th-cam.com/video/0nBCbVWy2vw/w-d-xo.html Trekyards made a twoparter about it ;)
Thorindir Naari , however, that functionality of the saucer was missing from the large majority of Starfleet ships - and some, like the Miranda class, are only saucer. So that itself would not be why Plus - Tim is right: that's why ships designed with Quantum Slipstream drives in mind are designed thinner and are more long than wide
Wasn't this always the case? The Romulans had a 'Bird of Prey' in the 60s show, I just assumed that the Romulans were smarter, and just sold tech and weapons to whoever was willing to pay
The animated series, is a small part of the Trek arc but when you have scripts from Larry Niven and other well established Science Fiction writers. It's hardly deserving of being forgotten.
Common misconception. The romulan ship in TOS was a warbird. Lt styles said : you can recognize romulan ships by the birds of prey painted on their hulls. But the shop itself was a warbird as noted in other episodes.
One of the important parts of the tech treaty was the romulans get true warp drive, up till that point they used a warp jump by creating an artificial black hole ( quantum singularity, that they still use to power their warp engines)that would jump them some distance, In original cannon Zephram Cochran was literally the creator of warp drive . The Klingons got warp drive in the supposed disastrous first contact by capturing the USS ranger. Then traded warp drive in then D-7’s for cloaking in the BOP
My oddish idea is the Romulans still had the Bird of Prey design but kept them in reserve as a defence/last ditch weapon but once the alliance with the Klingons disolved they used the ships to attack Khitomer and Narendra III the ships looking identical to Klingon Bird of Preys and the Tal Shiar able to fake authentication codes they snuck in and out. The only problem with that is the Trial of Worf's father where they say a Romulan ship attacked.
So the TNG version aren't real klingons? What about ST: The Undiscovered Country? There's 10 versions of the Klingons. Which ones are the REAL ONES!? If Discovery has zero similarities to them then how did I recognize them right away?
@@Pope-enhiemer In Star Trek Enterprise and in Star Trek DS9 they explained away the issue as being a virus infection, in 'Trials and Tribblations on ST DS9 they actually poked fun at it, the reason being that the Empire regularly used these 'ridgeless' Klingons as front line fodder in their continued conflicts with the Federation hoping to kill them off and give them some resemblance of honor for dying in battle. However Klingons were never shown to have any need of Jewelry like the Blingons in Star Trek Into Darkness, or being hairless zealots like in Discovery. In Fact before Discovery the Federation, Earth, and Starfleet had been dealing with Klingons for quite some time and knew what they looked like and how to deal with them. Discovery's writers just decided 'Fuck Lore and everything I'mma gonna go J.J. Abrams on this shit and do my own thing'. It even shows in next season when they started returning more and more the original looks of Klingons because people weren't happy.
@@Ami-vh7sr the events of Enterprise happened a hundred years before TOS and they were already discussing cosmetic surgery to correct it. But that still doesn't explain why Klingons looked so different in the TOS movies and why they changed from movie to movie. TNG/DS9/Voyager Klingons all dressed the exact same way because they reused costumes due to a limited budget. That's NOT a good thing that we should be clinging to. Those Klingons lack any sort of individuality or style and it's just plain sad if you think about it.
A tech exchange makes perfect sense, and we see something similar between real nations' military craft. Personally, the franchise has pretty much lost me with the reboots. I'd rather see Star Trek go forward, or if it has to go backwards focus on time travel more. Otherwise, Star Trek wilo end up so dated with the way the technology looks that it will feel like a representation of the past, not the future.
Can't remember where I heard/ read this, but my understanding was that the Klingon's modern first contact was with Romulans and that the Klingons stole tech from them shortly after, which was where their first warp drives came from, (though not the power systems and weapons because either they were very difficult to reverse engineer, they were incompatible with existing tech, or those components were damaged beyond repair in battle) This gives them a common base point, highlighting why some design elements would be shared, while keeping both sides as enemies, and thus diverging, both say the others are betrayers, the Romulans wanted to use the 'savage' Klingons as weapons, the Klingons struck back. The D7's would be relics of conflicts where ships were captured and re purposed by the Romulans. This also helps explain why the Klingons have a feudal society while all the other major powers have large representative bodies (the Romulan senate and federation council work reasonably similarly) as well as explaining why a culture that so shuns non-militaristic activities would be technologically equivalent to the others in the quadrant, especially considering that it is around the year 900 in the years of Kahless. a period that we know was predominated by bladed weapons, so reasonably around the same as the roman era on Earth perhaps.
This is one of the biggest pieces of lore that has always bothered me. I always loved the idea of Krug stealing it. Even called out the Lore Reloaded channel a few months ago for a video about the history of klingon ships, and they had never even heard about the BoP being romulan in origin. Kudos for trying to put this into cannon!
For me, whenever I think of Klingon and Romulan warships, I always like to picture the Klingon Bird of Prey from Star Trek 3 ( 3:01 - 3:36 ), the Romulan warbirds that come to aid in Star Trek Nemesis, and the newer D'Deridex design shown at 8:30 - 8:38 . All these ships are beautifully designed!
If one could find it..there was a fanzine called ( anti thesis). A Klingon fan viewpoint written in the mid 70s done largely by a - Pat Spath which describes a small vessel somewhat like the bop. That was named the "ke'tar "
Great, well put together video! The ships seen at the 5:45 mark were in a magazine add for Star Trek Die Cast Metal model ships from my childhood. Some of the models displayed there at 5:45 were never on the original series or in any of the movies. I tried to order the model ships by mail(only option at the time) and my check was returned saying the company was no longer in business lol. Guess the magazine was old. Very cool you found that picture :-)
I always went with the Romulan/Klingon treaty and tech sharing as the most logical explanation. Their treaty was pretty short lived (they were blood enemies after all) but long enough to swap ship designs for cloaking tech. At the time they both had a common enemy in the Federation and both wanted the Federation gone. It came down to the old adage 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it seemed to work for both groups.
The reason for using Klingons instead of Romulans was largely a budget decision. They had a dozen or so Klingon costumes left over from TMP. They could save money by going with them instead.
War trophies. The Klingons captured a Romulan R&D facility in a minor war which included proto-schematics for this class. The Klingons adopted it, improved on it, and produced it still including the traditional Romulan markings as a taunt.
The original bad guys for Search for Spock were Romulans. The cloaking device was crucial to the plot line. When studio execs insisted upon using Klingons, they kept the cloaking capability. This then required explanations down the line.
Thank you for this. Seeing those old Starliner figures and the Star Fleet Battles game brought a huge smile to my face. I still have the entire game including the SSDs, counters and assorted (at least 10 pounds worth) ship figures. I suggest that if anyone runs into that game, snatch it up, it's tons of fun to play with friends.
And the theory of how the Klingon’s got Cloaks is now burned by the new ST: Discovery canon, which has a Klingon independently develop cloaking. And the Klingons seem to have had Birds of Prey for hundreds and hundreds of years.
They also believed that the green coloration of the hull helped decrease the energy consumption of the Cloaking devices, hence why they went from Grey hull paint to going with green.
I vaguely remember a Klingon prototype ship making a brief "appearance" and withdrawing in ToS. Kirk made a comment about it, Klingons and Romulans were a lot alike at the time in ToS.
In real life, the villains were changed from Romulan to Klingon because the script of Star Trek III with Romulans was leaked into the fan circuit. I remember a friend of mine went to a Creationcon and bought a copy. In the leaked script the Romulans did not definitely know about the Genesis Device and Spock (reanimated at his original age) was hunting their landing party down one by one. If memory serves, what drew the Romulans to beam down to the planet was either an odd form of dilithium or even trilithium.
Well we can assume there was collaboration or tech exchange between the Romulans and Klingons as Worf once confirmed that at one time, they were allies.
0:00 some may have already pointed this out, but that design comes from the FASA STAR TREK board game, which has _loads_ of cool ship designs. 1:14 I think I know where this is going.. and it's going to CAPTAIN EO, isn't it? 4:00 (sigh) as a teenager who saw STAR TREK III when it first came out, it wasn't that hard to figure out, as the Klingons and Romulans had already exchanged tech as far back as the original show. That means that the Romulans get D-7 battlecruisers and the Klingons get access to Romulan tech such as cloaking devices and ship designs. It's easy to see the Klingon Bird of Prey as a Klingon ship simply due to their standard "boom and head" design being incorporated.
Easy explanation - the Klingons have a fleet with thousands of ships, and the ST3 Bird of Prey is just a small class of vessel used for certain kind of special ops missions. I like your explanation on the tech exchange between the Romulans though, which was outlined in The Enterprise Incident.
Great episode, really good theory to justify some interesting behind-the-scenes events that lead to the creation of the B'Rel. I got my own theory but it's longer than I intended it to be; sorry about that. Personal theory; during Klingon-Romulan tech exchange, the B'Rel was a cross-faction testbed used by both factions for exchanged technology. The Romulans abandoned the design and went on to develop the D'Deridex using technology and construction techniques pioneered during the refits and reverse-engineering of Klingon K'Tingas, their general isolation from the Federation meaning that Starfleet never encountered a Romulan B'Rel. This is also why D'Deridex are bristling with disruptors as well as their signature Plasma Torpedos. This is where things get more head-canony for this theory. The Klingons are heavily industrialized but their production is largely automated, due to there being little honour in scientific pursuits and engineering compared to the way of the Warrior. As such, they're capable of producing and updating existing schematics to a degree but it takes considerable effort to produce NEW ship designs. Compounding this, unless a new ship design is deemed necessary, there is a huge amount of political and economic pushback against such projects as they divert resources away from tried and true, traditional ship designs and endeavours. As such, B'rels never lost their Romulan aesthetics and influences despite being exclusively a Klingon used for over a century and consistently changing in size, function and capabilities.
Configuration and compartments in the main ship bodies stands as differences in design but power consumption is the real departure in ship configuration.
For all the reservations I have toward ENT, I would not exclude it from the canon. It is the last entry in the franchise that actually bothered with consistency. There may be other explanations to this conundrum than ENT being Riker's holodeck fantasy. For example: Romulans borrowed the 22th century BoP (now outdated) hull from the Klingons, as a part of their technology exchange. They developed it into something similar to the B'rel-class, but it didn't measure up to their expectations, because the general configuration was still optimised for Klingon weapon systems and propulsion. So they just sold the chassis back to the Klingons, who subsequently turned it into the backbone of Imperial navy (during the time that passed between the end of TOS and The Wrath of Khan). There were many comparably weird stories in real military history, so I don't think this scenario is that far fetched.
I agree with this explanation simply because, it is the only thing that actually makes any sense of how the Klingons and Romulans ended up with similar looking ships and technology.
In the 22nd. The Klingons and Romulans always had similar ambitions. Both probably were in a series of Cold Wars that developed their military. They knew about each other long before Earth was on their radar. They diverged when they eventually teamed up in the 23rd and Romulans got a hold of the D7 and decided to have battlecruisers instead of fast attack craft which failed in "Balance of Terror" Hence the creation of the WARBIRD. The Klingons prefer to be quick and mobile in comparison so they kept their BOP design. The Romulans prefer big vessels to defend their borders while Klingons prefer lightning fast blitz vessels to conquer their neighbors.
In my head canon, both the Klingons and Romulans reverse-engineered the Suliban cloaking technology, and the Romulans roughly copied the NX class in developing their original "Balance of Terror" Bird of Prey. (PS-I also think the Romulan ships in "Minefield" were from the future, a la TCW.)
My head cannon is that the Klingons stole the cloaking device from the Romulans but included the feathers in the design to honour the technological and military alliance between them and keep it in the design as a nod to that period of history, remembering where they came from.
One thing about the Klingon-Romulan tech exchange (that Enterprise messed up). We know from the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" that the Romulans did not have warp drive. Clearly that was something they got from the Klingons in exchange for cloaking tech.
The FASA collaboration idea is the one that makes the most sense to me. Both Empires had fought the Federation and lost, they both realized that they needed to update their technology if they ever hoped to win. Doing a limited collaboration where each trades some of their tech that the other side doesn't have makes sense. Much more sense than simply trying to invent it themselves from scratch. FASA also came up with their own clever reason for why the Old Klingons don't look like the New Klingons: The Klingons know more about genetic splicing than the Federation which pretty much banned such technology after Khan's original exploits. The Klingons were in the habit of creating genetic splices of their species with other species and since they'd found Humans to be a very formidable enemy they created lots of Klingon/Human hybrids to man the fleets that patrolled the border with the Federation. There have been several mentions of a civil war inside the Klingon Empire: according to FASA lore this was because the Hybrids got tired of being treated as second-class citizens and revolted - and were eventually defeated by the True Klingons sometime shortly before the first movie.
ENTERPRISE had an episode that explained the appearance of TOS Klingons as a failed experiment with super human genetics from Khan and Dr Noonian Sung. This might also explain the odd appearance of Klingons in DISCOVERY. The DISCOVERY Klingons might be the ancestral pure Klingon strain then modified by the human DNA for TOS then restored to the current appearance in The Motion Picture, TNG and DS9.
It’s great to see a channel with true full history and not just what has been on the big and small screen. It’s sad no one in the writers rooms of these productions ever bothered with the FASA or book content, which I also preferred. Many of the stories they think are “original” have already been done in books. Teach your kids to read, folks.
In Star Trek VI, they deduced that a "Bird of Prey" had to be the ship that fired the torpedo. This implies that the KLingons only had cloaking technology on those types of Klingon ships at that time.
The Romulan's are an artistic people, and the 22nd century Romulan warbird shows wings an almost exact copy of the B'rel Bird of Prey. The Klingon Bird of prey core remained relatively unchanged but streamlined the design. It's more Klingon to just scale and bolt the wings on whatever works and use whatever engine upgrades you get with an old cloaking device. With the BoP being smaller ships, cloaking would take significantly less power. The Romulan's got raw basic power that the converted directly, then as they infuse their art and culture into their surroundings, built on that to reach the massive D'deridex in a century of isolation from the other powers.
I think there must have been a technology trade between the two. And between Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, it was confirmed in TNG that the Klingons and Romulans had an alliance until the Romulans betrayed their Klingon allies, presumably because of their continuing and strengthening alliance with the Federation. It is also worth noting that although we never see a Klingon vessel with a cloak until Star Trek III, in the animated series episode "The Time Trap", Spock does state the Klingons "are not using their cloaking device". Presumably, by the time TAS started, the Klingons were now using the cloaking technology they had gotten from the Rolumans.
I was big into SFB at the time. The Bird of Prey hull was a slow, under gunned Romulan scout ship, but when the Klingons got a hold of some, and "Klingonified" them, It evolved well into a typical Klingon warship: Up gunned, Over powered drives, all stripped down into mean, lean, glory. While the Klingons only traded hand-me-down tech to the Romulans, they put their best tech into these scout ships that they admired greatly. As a result the Klingon Birds of Prey was a very different ship that far outclassed the Romulan version, much to Romulan shame.
Based on enterprise that the klingons had the bop first, is better to assume that the romulans copied the feather and wing configuration from the klingons than the other way around. Since it has been stated that they needed the d7 tech that they were willing to give them their only real advantage in tech they had, the cloaking.
The good old Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration and their ability to create supremely compelling lore. I liked their Trek universe the most.
Tech exchange, sure. But no collaboration. The BoP is a Klingon design. It is recognised as a Klingon design by the Federation, and it never referred to as (or even vaguely insinuated at being) a romulan design in any alpha canon source. What the designers or the writers originally wanted or thought up is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what was actually made and shown in alpha canon.
Except that the art department designed a Romulan ship and then had the label ''Klingon'' slapped on it. The Romulans got robbed out of a cool looking ship, because the studio wanted to focus on Klingons more. Imagine if the Galaxy-class starship got labelled as a Klingon ship, on the show. It would be cannon, but it wouldn't make a dam lick of sense.
I don't really know much about the lore of this stuff, but if we're going into speculation anyway, I'd like to point out that many people get hung up on the word "design" as meaning "visual design." It's very possible the shared technologies are internal components or a sort of design philosophy. Two ships could be potentially be 90% identical in "design" and still look totally different.
There were several good ideas from the old FASA Star Trek game and the explanation that the two war-like powers who had both been defeated by the Federation trading tech makes a lot of sense IMHO. I also liked their explanation for why the TOS Klingons look different from the Movie and later Klingons: The TOS Klingons were a genetic hybrid of human and Klingon to be used on the border with the Federation. The revolt of these second-class citizen hybrids explains some of the reason for the Klingon Civil War as well.
Well done! I have to say the FASA explanation from the tech treaty makes sense to me. I wish the vessels designed by them showed up in future series. Great video!
S.C. JFK I dunno man, I'm more partial to the theory that it was originally a Klingon ship, and they beat up the Romulans with it. The Romulans proceeded to steal the blueprints (a very Romulan thing to do) and produce the ship themselves. A cloaking device (like phasers, disruptors, shields, torpedoes etc...) could easily have been invented by both at roughly the same time. Perhaps the Romulans got captures at one point and the Klingons just reverse engineered them. It's not particularly advanced technology, the federation had several designs of them themselves (metaphasic, etc), despite being banned from persuing the technology.
Prefer the true reason for the Bird of Prey's time travel capability in Star Trek 4 as Kruge having knowledge of Doc Brown's flux capacitor technology. :)
This is the freshest and most intelligent (and brilliantly snarky) comment on ST that I’ve read in ages.
b8702131 BRILLLLLLLIANT!
great comment
Watch the TOS episode "The Naked Time" it explains how it travels
There's gotta be some Lectroid tech in there somewhere too.
It is a Leonard Nimoy design, in other words; Vulcan.
You made a mistake. I knew that even before Star Trek: The Motion Picture came out that it was canon that the Romulans gave the Cloaking technology to the Klingons in exchange for the D-7 warbirds. In TOS, the Klingons did use the newly gained Cloaking technology but it was never put on the screen. If you researched or watched, the Enterprise Incident.
As per Memory Alpha: [ In "The Enterprise Incident", Spock specifically mentions the encountered Romulan cruisers to be of Klingon design. This, as well as the fact that, around the same time, the Klingons once again used ships with cloaking capability, a technology previously thought unique to the Romulans, led to speculations about a short-lived Romulan-Klingon alliance.]
Julius Smith The existence of a "Romulan-Klingon alliance" in the 23rd century has never been explicitly stated. In "The Enterprise Incident", all that is said is that "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design." The Making of Star Trek (finished during the early part of the third season of TOS) does say, however, that the intention at the time was to have the Klingons and Romulans form an alliance against the Federation.
In developing Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Harve Bennett originally wrote the film with the Romulans as the belligerents, whose vessel was designated the "Bird-of-Prey", but later rewrote the Romulans as Klingons, as they were determined to be more exciting. After having "Klingicized" the characters in the film, he decided to keep the vessel designation intact. Recalling his two-month binge watching of every episode of Star Trek that existed then (when TOS was the only live-action series), Bennett said, "I didn't change their ship, because I remembered a piece of trivia that stated there was a mutual assistance military pact between the Klingons and the Romulans for an exchange of a military equipment." (Starlog #103, February 1986, p. 17)
In TNG: "The Neutral Zone", Worf says the Romulans "killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies." This incident occurred in 2346 and would require that the two races be both blood enemies and allied powers at the same time.
In TNG: "Reunion", Riker says, in response to a suggestion that the Klingons and Romulans are working together, "A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans?" By saying "new", he implies that there was an "old" one at some point. The two powers were "blood enemies" for seventy-five years prior to the episode, so any former alliance would most likely have had to have ended prior to that. The Battle of Klach D'kel Brakt in 2271, mentioned in DS9: "Blood Oath", might have been at or near that end of the alliance, as it took place twenty-one years prior to them being described as "blood enemies".
The whole reason for ALL of this confusion is because the original series creators got a little lazy and used the same D-7 model for both races... just to save money. They were notorious for cost-cutting measures... Commodore Decker's ship, the Constellation, was actually a store bought model of the Enterprise that they put together and just changed the decals to say NCC-1017.
@@stephenherbertson4544 They didn't use the Klingon D-7 for the Romulans to cut costs - they did it because the original Romulan Warbird model was destroyed in a warehouse fire. It was too expensive to create another model prop.
The story line per Richard Arnold (assistant to Gene Roddenberry) is that the story was originally using Romulan ships. Due to time, the script, and the lack of stock footage of Romulans ships. It was easier to tweak the story than to create a Romulan ship model.
@@LEGOALEX97 If it was too expensive to build another model then it is to cut costs; else they would have built another model.
Even as a kid I recognized the "Klingon" Bird of prey as being Romulan in design.
Anybody who argues for the strictest possible definitions of current canon (which typically excludes things that _were_ canon in 1984 and earlier) frankly wasn't alive in 1984...
Ha! I'm tickled that the date pegged for re-writing of canon past is 1984. Life imitates art.
Gary XHLC should have been. It was a great time to be alive! Since many of us were, we care. If you go back and watch the older shows in sequence and read the older books, wouldn’t you like consistency and things to make sense?
I remember when Star Trek III was being released, someone (director, producer, or Roddenberry.....I don't remember who) commenting on the making of the movie explained that the original villain was supposed to be the Romulans, and the Bird Of Prey was supposed to be theirs, but (for some reason) they thought the Klingons would make a "tougher" enemy, so they gave them the Romulan ship (which had already been built) and just said it was Klingon. I guess they never figured that decades later people would still be having this conversation. LOL.
In the original series, when they couldn't use the Romulan model, they had the decency to tell you that the "Romulars are using Klingon design!" All they had to do was call it a "Romulan BoP" and add these two lines:
Kirk: "What are you doing in a Romulan ship?"
Kruge: "I borrowed it, and now, I'll have yours."
Originally, the film was to open on a Klingon fleet waiting for Kruge, who had stolen the new Romulan ship for the Empire, but in the process he had found out about Genesis, so he was retasked to steal Genesis / destroyed the fleet to keep the ship so he can steal Genesis and claim the glory.
I sometimes wish that somebody would take control of star trek and retcon all of star trek enterprise and discovery out of existence.
Sadly we now have Discovery which has taken a giant piss on the entire franchise.
Lee Morgan
There's hope I heard somewhere that discovery is getting a new cap. Pike
Let's keep our fingers crossed.
You got that right!
Poop 💩💩💩💩
My beef with Discovery is mainly due to what they've done with Klingons - both visually (the looks of the people and the looks of their ships) and culturally (turning a violent, yet sophisticated culture into a band of savages). I could live with the space tardigrade (although it seemed like a dr Who crossover). I actually liked the mirror universe story arch. But what they've to Klingons is unforgivable.
It's so kewl how you drop this total non-sequitur so you can soapbox your deep critique here.
Lee Morgan very true
There is an easier explanation for Klingon cloaking device. Klingons and Romulans were always adversaries, so when Romulans developed cloak technology, so klingons did as well to keep up. This is why, in real world, Soviet space shuttle looks like American shuttle.
thats not a good example... the soviets had the documentation of von braun and the Us had von braun himself.
The Klingons traded specs for the D7 to the Romulans for cloaking technology it’s cannon
Nowhere stated onscreen that Klingons got their cloak from the Romulans.
I seem to recall in "The Enterprise Incident" that, when the Klingon design is seen used by Romulans, there is some mention made that the Romulans received the design from the Klingons in exchange for cloaking technology?
Lots of good info from the old FASA rpg and simulator games(non computer).
According to the tech manuals the klingon BOP from that era was a Romulan design.,the S-11.
And it was all Canon per Paramount.
Great video!
And the Klingon K-22...
Exactly. FASA was canon. It had approval from Roddenberry and Paramount. We talk about Star Wars saying a big F U to all of their "canon" writings with the advent of TFA but Star Trek did it first. They gutted what was a phenomenally fleshed out setting, disregarding all which was cannon previously without a backwards glance.
The technology exchange idea is the easiest, least messy explanation that doesn't require omitting large portions of canon
The history behind the Klingon/Romulan weapons treaty is thus... The episode that shows Romulans using Klingon ship designs is thus... Because in the filming of the episode they broke the only Romulan ship model they had, and did not have the time to make another. So they used the Klingon model, made up the Weapons Treaty, and Worf was born... Well his plot later in the next series that is.
P.S.
Discovery pisses on the franchise, fuck you CBS
now this is what i remember from the 80s about the Klingon Bird of Prey....The Klingon's got a scoutship version and some old cloaking devices from the Romulans and the Klingon's loved them so much they made a Frigate version of it and when the Romulans saw it it made them a little nervous and they started more in to developing newer ships and this was done before the first Star Trek Movie so it is a Romulan design the klingons just kept the look of it changing the color some times.
I MEAN IT EVEN HAS THOSE DAMN FEATHERS! THAT'S TOTALLY A GIVEAWAY!
And is called "Bird of Prey".
exactly, ROMULANS ARE BIG ON BIRDS.
It's weird but even though it has the feather patterns on it's "wings", i always felt it looked far more klingon than romulan in it's design. With the more rough look of the ship and the obvious visible weopons, the red torpedoes and so on, i never had any trouble believing this ship was thoroughly klingon in design. Romulan ships always had this smoothness and a high tech feel to them and a certain "winged elegance" in their design. The b'rel and k'vort completely lack this smoothness and elegance and therefore it never crossed my mind this was intended as a a romulan ship. Personally i don't think it would have worked very well as a romulan ship, but it does work great as a klingon ship. I think the compromise of a thoroughly klingon design (agressive and rough look, with prominent weapons and red detailing) with romulan influences (wing pattern and cloaking capabilities) in a time of technological exchange makes more sense to fit it into canon.
you actually make a good point. romulan ships tend to be more more intimidating as well where ass Klingons ships are Unapologetic Predators.
So there was an old magazine called Stardate and in Volume 3 Number 3 they published a section called Jaynz Ships of the Galaxy. In this issue they list a Romulan variant of the L-42 BOP called the V-24 Great Bird. There's also a nice story background on how it was created to combat the Klingons placement of the L-42s on the Romulan Klingon border only a few years after the tech exchange that gave them to the Klingons. Fun stuff.
I would tend to think that the birds of prey , since they were shown as Klingon first in the movies , we're built and sold two romulans who put their own tech inside .
Again thanks for resurrecting FASA’s version of Star Trek. I remember back then wishing for more series more movies more background and the possibilities were nothing but open. With the stuff hinted at in FASA’s product everything look golden for the future! And now we have Star Trek discovery, I have no idea what to say about except that FASA’s version was far better!
I was 8 years old when the FASA stuff was out and I still consider it great Star Trek lore. Too bad the Star Trek producers didn't feel the same way.
I recall as a kid watching “The Enterprise Incident”, the TOS episode which featured Klingon warships used by Romulans, and thinking that was a sufficient excuse as to why the Klingons had a Bird of Prey, just as the Romulans did in “Balance of Terror”. I recalled reading somewhere way back then, that the two empires had a technology exchange, somewhere in the TOS era.
You are correct, the Romulans were using Klingon design in that episode. I believe this was done because the romulan ship shown in the TOS was small. The use of the Klingon ship allowed for multiple decks and for Captain Kirk to wonder around the halls in search of the cloaking device. In the other romulan ship, this would be nearly impossible as that ship was tiny in comparison. It would make sense the would reuse the klingon model instead of making a new expensive model.
As I recall in 1980 (prior to the third motion picture) the K'tinga class cruiser had a dual line of plates on the upper part of the boom that blue prints described as "Cloaking Device Field Generators".
FASA's timeline and explanations make the most sense of ANYTHING put out to date. The show runners and movie makers are all over the board. FASA did the best job of tying things together between TOS and movies through ST IV.
Always loved the old FASA fluff. Not only the ship/tech exchange, but the Human/Klingon (and Rom/Klingon) Fusion races.
Is the Winged Defender now canon? I only remember it from the FASA game! Love the animation from the beginning!
No no...It probably never will be unless they put someone like me in the effects department lol. Thats fine because it means I can do with it what I will!!
The Winged Defender is a stupid childish design. Building a ship that mimics a bird seems very un Romulan. They're more sophisticated than that. I doubt if it's ever going to be made canon.
lokisgodhi You seriously don't like the ship??? That does not compute! *brain explodes*
+Resurrected Starships Nope. I think it's really half assed and childish. FASA basically needed a bunch of designs and needed them quickly. It's like they just took the image of a hawk stooping with it's talons extended and turned into a ship by adding warp nacelles and weapons. As a design, it has no elegance. A design like the D'deridex is evocative of a bird of prey, but it's symbolic.
I used to play the board game circa 1981/82. In the board game, I recall the Romulans had been provided warp drive sections for their Birds of pray by the Klingons. I kinda remember it being said in the board game that either the Romulans did not have warp drive tech, or it was not as good as Klingon tech. You are right, in exchange, the Klingon's got the cloaking tech.
As an aside in the game, the big Klingon cruisers had more shields in the rear than the front. It was funny to have a Klingon commander attack you while backing towards you, lol!
In Roddenberry's books, the impetus for the saucer was supposed to signify a shield, which reinforced the more defensive purpose of it's mission to explore not fight.
Didn't Worf in TNG state that the Romulans were supposed to be the allies of the Klingons when they attacked Khitomer?
I do not remember him saying that but it is possible. The Khitomer incident was never fleshed out fully but it occured well into the 24th century. But I've gotten the impression that the Romulans had a serious falling out with the Klingons at some point before Star Trek VI - perhaps in response to the Federation-Klingon peace talks spearheaded by Kurzon Dax.
Yes, Worf said that in “The Neutral Zone,” the S1 finale. The Romulans attacked the outpost while they were supposed to be the Klingons’ allies.
It could just be a matter of semantics. Perhaps the Romulans and Klingons were once enemies, then made a short-lived alliance for whatever reason (or "fake" alliance, knowing how back-stabbing Romulans of the era were), and the Romulans used it as a chance to Pearl Harbor the Klingons. So they were always enemies, but they were "supposed to be" allies.
My idea is this: the 22nd century BoP was infact NOT a BoP. It was a Klingon ship design that would later become the BoP.
During the Romulan-Klingon tech exchange the Romulans found this old but effective design and liked it. So they decided to collaborate with the Klingons to create their equivalent of the Europanzer or Eurofighter based on that design.
Then much like the Europanzer project they never reached a complete agreement on what tech to use. The Klingons probably wanted to use photon torpedos and anti-matter engines while the Romulan would have preferred to use plasma torpedos and singularity engines.
At the end we got both Klingons and Romulans using a similar design outfitted with different weapons and other systems.
I like that! I also should note that the torpedo used in STIII by the BoP are not like any torpedo we have seen before. They might not be photon torpedoes at all. I am not sure that they are plasma torpedoes in the same way of Balance of Terror (TOS), but they could be a plasma variant.
Paint the B'Rel in the same grey as tu the 23rd century Romulan Warbird. Paint its feather pattern in gold. Give it a better cloak device. There you go.
FASA suggested they were Blue If I recall correctly.
I have a different explanation for you. Time Travel. The TREK universe not only has time travel but such can change history--and there is a lot of time travel going on. This cannot be without impact. Look at "City on the Edge of Forever." Spock and Kirk spent weeks in 1930s New York, their presence subtly changing the flow of foot traffic in the city. They purchased and ate food that originally involved money used by someone else, and the food consumed by someone else. They stole clothes that originally were not stolen. Tiny changes, you say? Consider the US Civil War if a Confederate officer had not lost his tobacco pouch, inside of which were General Lee's battle plans for an upcoming battle. Because that battle ended up as a Union victory, it allowed Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, shutting off all aid from France or Britain to the South (since the Proclamation defined the war as one against slavery). That is but one example. The accumulation of tiny changes from countless time travelers across thousands of years from thousands of species would certainly mean a constant shifting of history on pretty much every world. All the time. This neatly accounts for all the inconsistencies with all the different TREK series and films. History is literally different between shows. Sometimes between episodes!
MacClellan never put that information to use. He sat on his hands for an entire day before moving out. He then waited another day after forcing the South Mountain passes, buying time for AP Hill to rejoin Lee, arriving just in time to stop Burnsides attack as it began to approach Lee's rear. Bad example to use.
It's a good explanation, but we could argue about how plastic a franchise like Star Trek could be with continuity in relation to how satisfying story/episode/series plots will be in the long run. It's like....Dr.Who. If Dr.Who can save the planet almost every single episode with some sort of deus ex machina moment, why care about whichever low-budget, unimaginative alien invader type invades in any given episode? If the time travel story element in Star Trek can explain continuity errors and other ill-planned production choices, why care about continuity at all? I'm not saying it's a black and white effect, there's certainly a spectrum here, but I think at least giving an honest try at a canon storyline gives Star Trek more popularity and cultural impact than franchises that...don't.
There is a competing theory of time travel changes. It goes that all the changes to history that are ever going to be made have already happened and we're in the final form. Douglas Adams- Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy.
Reason for Starfleet saucer designs: Forbidden Planet is prefederation earth starfleet history. As warp engines became larger and more powerful they were moved to the outside of the saucer, and eventually attached to a secondary hull
If only today's Star Trek cared even half as much about continuity as you do.
strontiumXnitrate This isn't your MGTOW echo chamber.
@strontiumXnitrate no, continuity is a myth created by you and other small minded non creators.
I will say this very clearly for you... even within the holiest portion of the franchise TOS there is absolutely no continuity to be found. None, not even within season 1. Gene and crew threw away "canon" with practically every new episode. They changed anything they wanted to because the next story is always more important than the last.
How could you expect DSC to be consistent with TOS when TOS isn't consistent its self? You cant include any one piece of canon from TOS without pissing on three other contradictory pieces of canon.
jim
Star Trek was designed as a TV series with internal consistency, as opposed to shows that are frequently rebooted or even take pleasure in creating deliberate continuity errors. During The Original Series' three seasons from 1966 to 1969 there was no obvious canon policy, like there was no particular attention to inter-episode continuity either. *But as the fictional universe kept growing, it was necessary to come up with rules what has to be taken into account by future writers (the canon), as well as with a collection of such canon data for reference (The Star Trek Encyclopedia and its forerunners that may have existed behind the scenes, and did exist such as the various series “writer’s bibles”.)*
*The knowledge about canon may even have a quite beneficial impact on storylines. A prominent example is DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" with its slavish adherence to the canon events of TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles". Another one is the Vulcan arc of ENT: "The Forge", "The Awakening" and "Kir'Shara" that successfully removes a previous continuity error concerning Vulcan Mind Melds from canon. These episodes are commonly said to be among the most creative and most enticing installments of all Star Trek.*
*Keeping events in new episodes compliant with canon was a quality mark of the show until the end of Star Trek Enterprise in 2005.*
Discovery ignores canon while attempting to rewrite it at the same time.
With the long neck and placement of the torpedo tube, the bird of prey actually looked more Klingon than Romulan form the start
I really like how you combine the lore with the behind the scenes commentary. Good work
SO GLAD you included athe model of the Chandley Class along with the rest @ 5:38! its my favorite "non canon" class!
When I was a wee trekker it was always rumoured that the Klingon ships were bought Romulan ships, as Klingons themselves were not engineers capable of building such things. This was part of the reason why the federation, and the Vulcans were at odd with the renegade Romulans and unable as well as unwilling to interact with the primitive war culture of the Klingons. It's a great history and would be a great series, if only paramount could get its shit together.
Um, you all know that Star Trek is not a documentary right? I was at a convention in 1979, when Gene Roddenberry was asked "how many Enterprise sized ships are in the Federation?". "As many as we need for any given episode" was the answer. This stuff is all made up to make an interesting show, not follow a precise timeline or tech tree. If you want consistency you have to have a single writer. Just enjoy the show. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Discovery, I'll never watch it. The Orville, I will watch with great enthusiasm.
Also the answer to the fan question "How do the Heisenberg Compensators work?" "Very well. Thanks for asking"
ever hear a sports-talk show? thousands of people talking about how a game shoud go will go would have gone this season last season next season? just another form of entertainment (possibly more scripted than star trek) but no one thinks discussing that's a complete waste of time.
Nitpicking Star Trek for over half a century is part of what's kept Star Trek around for over half a century.
Look, we all watch it because we are entertained by it. That's the whole point of star trek as a medium. What we're dealing with here, is rationalising inconsistencies, so it'll help maintain the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy it.
You just have a higher tolerance to inconsistencies.
An example is Mortal Engines and the complete disregard to the square cubed law. Would big traction-cities make sense in the real world? Not at all, but the book series is consistent in how it handles them.
I had the same idea as you, years ago, that the BOP was a hybrid of Romulan and Klingon technologies. It's the only way to explain away the clear Romulan influence in the design. The only thing that lets it pass as Klingon is the long neck. The rest of the design overlays the Romulan T'liss almost perfectly.
It could also be, that while the Romulans helped build the B'rel BOP, they may have quickly diverted from use of the design, if they had recently developed Singularity warp cores. This new source of power may not have been compatible with the Hybrid design, and so the Romulans ended up taking a completely different design approach for their ships, that they kept secret from their Klingon allies.
It may also be, that after the 2 empires developed the BOP, the Klingons broke their alliance and stole the prototype, hoping to gain a tactical advantage over both the Romulans and Federation. And so the Romulans never got to benefit from their collaboration efforts of the ship. And the Klingons just kept building more, to rub in in the Romulan's faces.
There are many reasons that could be given as to why the Klingons have a Romulan looking ship, that would make for an interesting story, but for some reason it's never tackled on the show. It's a shame, really.
David von Doom Klingons had a Bird or prey during the 22nd century.
Something that sci-fi rarely seems to touch on, but happened a lot in real life, is the idea of stealing other people's tech.
In the age of sail, when building ships was a massive undertaking, Prize was implemented in part to encourage the capture of enemy vessels, rather than destroying them. As a result, you would see the British Royal Navy operating French or Spanish ships, and likewise for other nations.
If the Klingons and Romulans went to war, it makes sense they would steal each other's ships. Even if they didn't use those ships, they would use some of the tech. The Federation may have rules against the use of disruptors or cloaking devices, but the Klingons and Romulans have no such rules.
I played the FASA Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator game in the 80's. I also bought the supplementary material that includes additional ships for the Federation, Klingon and Romulan fleets. I recall reading about the technology exchange. There were so many cool ship designs in those books. Too bad none of it made it to any of the shows. The NX class ships from Enterprise reminds me of the Loknar class frigate.
Thanks for the video, the Klingon Bird of Prey is my favorite ship out of all the sci fi ships. I like your theory it makes sense, in the TNG episode Timescape Data says the Romulans use a mini singularity for their warpcores. This would be like the Federation and the Klingons running around in ships with V6 motors while the Romulans run around in V8 motor powered ships, this would explain why the Romulans had enough power to run a cloaking device and why the Klingons couldn't get it to work at first, thus further supporting your theory. Also in the Enterprise show its pointed out that the Vulcans say they don't lie when they lie all the time, the Federation say they don't believe in radical intelligence agencies but have Section 31 and the Klingons say they fight with honor when they really fight dirty, thus why they wanted the cloaking technology
I agree with a trade deal to explain the D7s, because they are almost identical. I seem to remember it being mentioned that Klingon's developed their cloak technology, but that could've been a non-canon book I read. However, saying that the BoP is a Romulan ship doesn't make sense to me... just because it was originally going to be Romulans in the movie and it has a feather design on the wing. The Klingons may have seen this and though "Ooooh, that's cool! Let's do that!" The Romulans don't really have anything that looks like the B'rel class, but to me it fits with the Klingon design aesthetic a lot more. Just my opinion of how it's been in my head canon since I started watching Trek in the late 80s.
I always assumed the BoP was part of the Romulan Klingon tech treaty from the start. >.>
As mentioned below, FASA attempted to make sense of movies (which wasn't always easy) and postulated an alliance between the Klingons and Romulans (somewhat short lived) which resulted in the Romulan bird of prey being swapped to the Klingons in exchange for D6 hulls from the Klingons. This was based on the "their power is simple impulse" phrase in Balance of Terror, implying that the Romulans didn't have FTL drives. Of course the problem with this was that it seem unlikely that the romulans could have broken away from Vulcan without a FTL drive. But by FASA's lore, this gave the Romulans a first rate FTL drive and the Klingons a great small combatant that they took to so thoroughly that they made 3 versions. As is often the case, Enterprise tended to break the timeline in more than one way (Borg, cloaks, etc.) so who knows what really happened. Note that in Star Fleet Battles the early Romulan warbirds WEREN'T capable of FTL flight in battle. But they did have a big ass weapon that went faster than any ship could go in combat. I like this lore myself. I enjoy your video very much and think it may be a good compromise. As far as Romulan ships in FASA, my favorite was the Romulan Battleship which I thought was very graceful and powerful looking.
"Warbird" and "Bird Of Prey" are two different Spaceship Designs. In the Original STAR TREK TV Series, the First Romulan Contact was with a Pre-Warp Warship Design. Basically, a Saucer with Nacelles on the sides.
The Second Contact with Romulans had the same Warship Design; but, the Warship was Warp Capable.
After that, Klingons and Romulans utilized the same Cruiser Designs and Destroyer Designs; but, they had different technologies.
The main difference between Klingon Warships and Romulan Warships is that Romulans paint Bird Wing Details on their "Engine Pylons". This was true even for "The First Contact" and "The Second Contact" Romulan Warships.
Thus, Klingons and Romulans were collaborators back in the Original STAR TREK TV Series.
Between 1995 and 1997, I played STAR FLEET BATTLES Volume #3. Using the Custom Ship Design Rules, I modified a Klingon/Romulan Cruiser to have Maulers. I also give it a Fighter by removing 1 or 2 Administrative Shuttles.
So...In the STAR FLEET BATTLES Volume #3 Game, my Warship was first assumed to be Klingon, or Romulan; but, after some analysis and further contact, my warship was actually defined as being Opposite. I forget the details; because, I'm not a Trekkie; and, I had lost the Paperwork.
it'a possible that the Bird of prey was designed by the romulins and traded it to the klingons for tech or resources. The klingons, not being the best original thinkers, took the design and just made cosmetic changes and built them amass.
+ringleader61
I wouldn't say they just did cosmetic designs but more of they approached the design, implemented more military capability to it (more firepower, efficnet power to facilitate firepower, sturdier designs, and etc) and then amassed them. Improving a design can just be as good as thinking of an entirely new one
And still.... Nobody has ever explained the federation philosophy on the use of a saucer dish main hull. Matt jeffries said originally it was a sphere but didn't look right and so flattened it. But what is the in universe explanation for this design?????
Come to think of it, I have NEVER heard even a fan-theory about this.
“Tradition”?
NX series all had saucer dish main hulls.. they worked and were adequate for the engineering task at hand and so Starfleet continued to use them. An “If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality
What iff....there is some kind of supercollider running through the saucer with the collision point near the impulse drive? Perhaps this is how they create the exotic matter required to achieve warp drive. Just thinking out-loud :D Could be problems with this theory since not all saucers are really round.
The saucer is an oversized rescue boat.
so when your warpcore is starting to malfunction and is going to explode you have the possibility to rescue most if not all of the personal.
Since all personal on a Spaceship are fully trained + life itself has a huge status in the fed the saucer makes sense.
th-cam.com/video/0nBCbVWy2vw/w-d-xo.html
Trekyards made a twoparter about it ;)
Thorindir Naari , however, that functionality of the saucer was missing from the large majority of Starfleet ships - and some, like the Miranda class, are only saucer. So that itself would not be why
Plus - Tim is right: that's why ships designed with Quantum Slipstream drives in mind are designed thinner and are more long than wide
Wasn't this always the case? The Romulans had a 'Bird of Prey' in the 60s show, I just assumed that the Romulans were smarter, and just sold tech and weapons to whoever was willing to pay
The animated series, is a small part of the Trek arc but when you have scripts from Larry Niven and other well established Science Fiction writers. It's hardly deserving of being forgotten.
Common misconception. The romulan ship in TOS was a warbird. Lt styles said : you can recognize romulan ships by the birds of prey painted on their hulls. But the shop itself was a warbird as noted in other episodes.
One of the important parts of the tech treaty was the romulans get true warp drive, up till that point they used a warp jump by creating an artificial black hole ( quantum singularity, that they still use to power their warp engines)that would jump them some distance,
In original cannon Zephram Cochran was literally the creator of warp drive . The Klingons got warp drive in the supposed disastrous first contact by capturing the USS ranger. Then traded warp drive in then D-7’s for cloaking in the BOP
My oddish idea is the Romulans still had the Bird of Prey design but kept them in reserve as a defence/last ditch weapon but once the alliance with the Klingons disolved they used the ships to attack Khitomer and Narendra III the ships looking identical to Klingon Bird of Preys and the Tal Shiar able to fake authentication codes they snuck in and out. The only problem with that is the Trial of Worf's father where they say a Romulan ship attacked.
That's nothing new. They got the cloak because of a backroom deal with the Romulans for their D7 Battlecruisers.
@ 2:34 Real, honest to goodness Klingons, those aliens on Discovery have zero similarities to them.
So the TNG version aren't real klingons? What about ST: The Undiscovered Country? There's 10 versions of the Klingons. Which ones are the REAL ONES!? If Discovery has zero similarities to them then how did I recognize them right away?
@@Christianos_Theophile wow I've never heard someone called a drekkie before! You're so witty! Did you come up with that all by yourself?
Zachary Davis
No, actually, your mother came up with it, then we licensed it to bad reboot and now cbs is gonna hide it behind a nice paywall
@@Pope-enhiemer In Star Trek Enterprise and in Star Trek DS9 they explained away the issue as being a virus infection, in 'Trials and Tribblations on ST DS9 they actually poked fun at it, the reason being that the Empire regularly used these 'ridgeless' Klingons as front line fodder in their continued conflicts with the Federation hoping to kill them off and give them some resemblance of honor for dying in battle. However Klingons were never shown to have any need of Jewelry like the Blingons in Star Trek Into Darkness, or being hairless zealots like in Discovery. In Fact before Discovery the Federation, Earth, and Starfleet had been dealing with Klingons for quite some time and knew what they looked like and how to deal with them. Discovery's writers just decided 'Fuck Lore and everything I'mma gonna go J.J. Abrams on this shit and do my own thing'. It even shows in next season when they started returning more and more the original looks of Klingons because people weren't happy.
@@Ami-vh7sr the events of Enterprise happened a hundred years before TOS and they were already discussing cosmetic surgery to correct it. But that still doesn't explain why Klingons looked so different in the TOS movies and why they changed from movie to movie. TNG/DS9/Voyager Klingons all dressed the exact same way because they reused costumes due to a limited budget. That's NOT a good thing that we should be clinging to. Those Klingons lack any sort of individuality or style and it's just plain sad if you think about it.
A tech exchange makes perfect sense, and we see something similar between real nations' military craft. Personally, the franchise has pretty much lost me with the reboots. I'd rather see Star Trek go forward, or if it has to go backwards focus on time travel more. Otherwise, Star Trek wilo end up so dated with the way the technology looks that it will feel like a representation of the past, not the future.
Can't remember where I heard/ read this, but my understanding was that the Klingon's modern first contact was with Romulans and that the Klingons stole tech from them shortly after, which was where their first warp drives came from, (though not the power systems and weapons because either they were very difficult to reverse engineer, they were incompatible with existing tech, or those components were damaged beyond repair in battle) This gives them a common base point, highlighting why some design elements would be shared, while keeping both sides as enemies, and thus diverging, both say the others are betrayers, the Romulans wanted to use the 'savage' Klingons as weapons, the Klingons struck back. The D7's would be relics of conflicts where ships were captured and re purposed by the Romulans. This also helps explain why the Klingons have a feudal society while all the other major powers have large representative bodies (the Romulan senate and federation council work reasonably similarly) as well as explaining why a culture that so shuns non-militaristic activities would be technologically equivalent to the others in the quadrant, especially considering that it is around the year 900 in the years of Kahless. a period that we know was predominated by bladed weapons, so reasonably around the same as the roman era on Earth perhaps.
This is one of the biggest pieces of lore that has always bothered me. I always loved the idea of Krug stealing it. Even called out the Lore Reloaded channel a few months ago for a video about the history of klingon ships, and they had never even heard about the BoP being romulan in origin. Kudos for trying to put this into cannon!
Mr great pleasure. :D
For me, whenever I think of Klingon and Romulan warships, I always like to picture the Klingon Bird of Prey from Star Trek 3 ( 3:01 - 3:36 ), the Romulan warbirds that come to aid in Star Trek Nemesis, and the newer D'Deridex design shown at 8:30 - 8:38 . All these ships are beautifully designed!
If one could find it..there was a fanzine called ( anti thesis). A Klingon fan viewpoint written in the mid 70s done largely by a - Pat Spath which describes a small vessel somewhat like the bop. That was named the "ke'tar "
Great, well put together video! The ships seen at the 5:45 mark were in a magazine add for Star Trek Die Cast Metal model ships from my childhood. Some of the models displayed there at 5:45 were never on the original series or in any of the movies. I tried to order the model ships by mail(only option at the time) and my check was returned saying the company was no longer in business lol. Guess the magazine was old. Very cool you found that picture :-)
I always went with the Romulan/Klingon treaty and tech sharing as the most logical explanation. Their treaty was pretty short lived (they were blood enemies after all) but long enough to swap ship designs for cloaking tech. At the time they both had a common enemy in the Federation and both wanted the Federation gone. It came down to the old adage 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and it seemed to work for both groups.
The reason for using Klingons instead of Romulans was largely a budget decision. They had a dozen or so Klingon costumes left over from TMP. They could save money by going with them instead.
if I shake my phone with the blue grid behind the pictures and it is paused it looks like it becomes disconnected... wiggles on its own
War trophies. The Klingons captured a Romulan R&D facility in a minor war which included proto-schematics for this class.
The Klingons adopted it, improved on it, and produced it still including the traditional Romulan markings as a taunt.
The original bad guys for Search for Spock were Romulans. The cloaking device was crucial to the plot line. When studio execs insisted upon using Klingons, they kept the cloaking capability. This then required explanations down the line.
Thank you for this. Seeing those old Starliner figures and the Star Fleet Battles game brought a huge smile to my face. I still have the entire game including the SSDs, counters and assorted (at least 10 pounds worth) ship figures. I suggest that if anyone runs into that game, snatch it up, it's tons of fun to play with friends.
And the theory of how the Klingon’s got Cloaks is now burned by the new ST: Discovery canon, which has a Klingon independently develop cloaking. And the Klingons seem to have had Birds of Prey for hundreds and hundreds of years.
They also believed that the green coloration of the hull helped decrease the energy consumption of the Cloaking devices, hence why they went from Grey hull paint to going with green.
I vaguely remember a Klingon prototype ship making a brief "appearance" and withdrawing in ToS. Kirk made a comment about it, Klingons and Romulans were a lot alike at the time in ToS.
Wow! What an excellent video! Great graphics!
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️👍🖖
In real life, the villains were changed from Romulan to Klingon because the script of Star Trek III with Romulans was leaked into the fan circuit. I remember a friend of mine went to a Creationcon and bought a copy. In the leaked script the Romulans did not definitely know about the Genesis Device and Spock (reanimated at his original age) was hunting their landing party down one by one. If memory serves, what drew the Romulans to beam down to the planet was either an odd form of dilithium or even trilithium.
Me:
Every mention of “Discovery”, “Picard” and “Below Decks”...
🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Well we can assume there was collaboration or tech exchange between the Romulans and Klingons as Worf once confirmed that at one time, they were allies.
0:00 some may have already pointed this out, but that design comes from the FASA STAR TREK board game, which has _loads_ of cool ship designs.
1:14 I think I know where this is going.. and it's going to CAPTAIN EO, isn't it?
4:00 (sigh) as a teenager who saw STAR TREK III when it first came out, it wasn't that hard to figure out, as the Klingons and Romulans had already exchanged tech as far back as the original show. That means that the Romulans get D-7 battlecruisers and the Klingons get access to Romulan tech such as cloaking devices and ship designs. It's easy to see the Klingon Bird of Prey as a Klingon ship simply due to their standard "boom and head" design being incorporated.
Easy explanation - the Klingons have a fleet with thousands of ships, and the ST3 Bird of Prey is just a small class of vessel used for certain kind of special ops missions. I like your explanation on the tech exchange between the Romulans though, which was outlined in The Enterprise Incident.
Great episode, really good theory to justify some interesting behind-the-scenes events that lead to the creation of the B'Rel. I got my own theory but it's longer than I intended it to be; sorry about that.
Personal theory; during Klingon-Romulan tech exchange, the B'Rel was a cross-faction testbed used by both factions for exchanged technology. The Romulans abandoned the design and went on to develop the D'Deridex using technology and construction techniques pioneered during the refits and reverse-engineering of Klingon K'Tingas, their general isolation from the Federation meaning that Starfleet never encountered a Romulan B'Rel. This is also why D'Deridex are bristling with disruptors as well as their signature Plasma Torpedos.
This is where things get more head-canony for this theory. The Klingons are heavily industrialized but their production is largely automated, due to there being little honour in scientific pursuits and engineering compared to the way of the Warrior. As such, they're capable of producing and updating existing schematics to a degree but it takes considerable effort to produce NEW ship designs. Compounding this, unless a new ship design is deemed necessary, there is a huge amount of political and economic pushback against such projects as they divert resources away from tried and true, traditional ship designs and endeavours. As such, B'rels never lost their Romulan aesthetics and influences despite being exclusively a Klingon used for over a century and consistently changing in size, function and capabilities.
Configuration and compartments in the main ship bodies stands as differences in design but power consumption is the real departure in ship configuration.
I like how the wings were supposed to be the warp engines. That's why the wings move.
For all the reservations I have toward ENT, I would not exclude it from the canon. It is the last entry in the franchise that actually bothered with consistency. There may be other explanations to this conundrum than ENT being Riker's holodeck fantasy. For example: Romulans borrowed the 22th century BoP (now outdated) hull from the Klingons, as a part of their technology exchange. They developed it into something similar to the B'rel-class, but it didn't measure up to their expectations, because the general configuration was still optimised for Klingon weapon systems and propulsion. So they just sold the chassis back to the Klingons, who subsequently turned it into the backbone of Imperial navy (during the time that passed between the end of TOS and The Wrath of Khan). There were many comparably weird stories in real military history, so I don't think this scenario is that far fetched.
I agree with this explanation simply because, it is the only thing that actually makes any sense of how the Klingons and Romulans ended up with similar looking ships and technology.
In the 22nd. The Klingons and Romulans always had similar ambitions. Both probably were in a series of Cold Wars that developed their military. They knew about each other long before Earth was on their radar.
They diverged when they eventually teamed up in the 23rd and Romulans got a hold of the D7 and decided to have battlecruisers instead of fast attack craft which failed in "Balance of Terror" Hence the creation of the WARBIRD. The Klingons prefer to be quick and mobile in comparison so they kept their BOP design.
The Romulans prefer big vessels to defend their borders while Klingons prefer lightning fast blitz vessels to conquer their neighbors.
In my head canon, both the Klingons and Romulans reverse-engineered the Suliban cloaking technology, and the Romulans roughly copied the NX class in developing their original "Balance of Terror" Bird of Prey. (PS-I also think the Romulan ships in "Minefield" were from the future, a la TCW.)
My head cannon is that the Klingons stole the cloaking device from the Romulans but included the feathers in the design to honour the technological and military alliance between them and keep it in the design as a nod to that period of history, remembering where they came from.
One thing about the Klingon-Romulan tech exchange (that Enterprise messed up). We know from the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" that the Romulans did not have warp drive. Clearly that was something they got from the Klingons in exchange for cloaking tech.
The FASA collaboration idea is the one that makes the most sense to me. Both Empires had fought the Federation and lost, they both realized that they needed to update their technology if they ever hoped to win. Doing a limited collaboration where each trades some of their tech that the other side doesn't have makes sense. Much more sense than simply trying to invent it themselves from scratch. FASA also came up with their own clever reason for why the Old Klingons don't look like the New Klingons: The Klingons know more about genetic splicing than the Federation which pretty much banned such technology after Khan's original exploits. The Klingons were in the habit of creating genetic splices of their species with other species and since they'd found Humans to be a very formidable enemy they created lots of Klingon/Human hybrids to man the fleets that patrolled the border with the Federation. There have been several mentions of a civil war inside the Klingon Empire: according to FASA lore this was because the Hybrids got tired of being treated as second-class citizens and revolted - and were eventually defeated by the True Klingons sometime shortly before the first movie.
ENTERPRISE had an episode that explained the appearance of TOS Klingons as a failed experiment with super human genetics from Khan and Dr Noonian Sung. This might also explain the odd appearance of Klingons in DISCOVERY. The DISCOVERY Klingons might be the ancestral pure Klingon strain then modified by the human DNA for TOS then restored to the current appearance in The Motion Picture, TNG and DS9.
It’s great to see a channel with true full history and not just what has been on the big and small screen. It’s sad no one in the writers rooms of these productions ever bothered with the FASA or book content, which I also preferred. Many of the stories they think are “original” have already been done in books. Teach your kids to read, folks.
In Star Trek VI, they deduced that a "Bird of Prey" had to be the ship that fired the torpedo. This implies that the KLingons only had cloaking technology on those types of Klingon ships at that time.
Kronos 1 isn't seen to Cloak - so it looks like it was a while before that Class of ship was shown to be able to cloak too.
Probably because of the power requirements, however, the Rommuland did fit a more advanced cloak to at least one of their D7s in TOS.
Canon still has the Klingons having a bird of prey vessel in enterprise, 22nd century.
" Bird of Prey" birth will always start with the Romulans, end of story.
The Romulan's are an artistic people, and the 22nd century Romulan warbird shows wings an almost exact copy of the B'rel Bird of Prey. The Klingon Bird of prey core remained relatively unchanged but streamlined the design. It's more Klingon to just scale and bolt the wings on whatever works and use whatever engine upgrades you get with an old cloaking device. With the BoP being smaller ships, cloaking would take significantly less power.
The Romulan's got raw basic power that the converted directly, then as they infuse their art and culture into their surroundings, built on that to reach the massive D'deridex in a century of isolation from the other powers.
I think there must have been a technology trade between the two. And between Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, it was confirmed in TNG that the Klingons and Romulans had an alliance until the Romulans betrayed their Klingon allies, presumably because of their continuing and strengthening alliance with the Federation. It is also worth noting that although we never see a Klingon vessel with a cloak until Star Trek III, in the animated series episode "The Time Trap", Spock does state the Klingons "are not using their cloaking device". Presumably, by the time TAS started, the Klingons were now using the cloaking technology they had gotten from the Rolumans.
I was big into SFB at the time. The Bird of Prey hull was a slow, under gunned Romulan scout ship, but when the Klingons got a hold of some, and "Klingonified" them, It evolved well into a typical Klingon warship: Up gunned, Over powered drives, all stripped down into mean, lean, glory. While the Klingons only traded hand-me-down tech to the Romulans, they put their best tech into these scout ships that they admired greatly. As a result the Klingon Birds of Prey was a very different ship that far outclassed the Romulan version, much to Romulan shame.
Based on enterprise that the klingons had the bop first, is better to assume that the romulans copied the feather and wing configuration from the klingons than the other way around. Since it has been stated that they needed the d7 tech that they were willing to give them their only real advantage in tech they had, the cloaking.
The good old Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration and their ability to create supremely compelling lore. I liked their Trek universe the most.
This movie featured Chistopher as the Klingon captain of the Bird of Prey, Jim Ignotowsky in space, lol.
Tech exchange, sure. But no collaboration.
The BoP is a Klingon design. It is recognised as a Klingon design by the Federation, and it never referred to as (or even vaguely insinuated at being) a romulan design in any alpha canon source.
What the designers or the writers originally wanted or thought up is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what was actually made and shown in alpha canon.
Except that the art department designed a Romulan ship and then had the label ''Klingon'' slapped on it. The Romulans got robbed out of a cool looking ship, because the studio wanted to focus on Klingons more.
Imagine if the Galaxy-class starship got labelled as a Klingon ship, on the show. It would be cannon, but it wouldn't make a dam lick of sense.
I like your theory considering it fits with TOS tech exchange when the Romulans were using Klingon ship designs. Great video!
I don't really know much about the lore of this stuff, but if we're going into speculation anyway, I'd like to point out that many people get hung up on the word "design" as meaning "visual design." It's very possible the shared technologies are internal components or a sort of design philosophy. Two ships could be potentially be 90% identical in "design" and still look totally different.
There were several good ideas from the old FASA Star Trek game and the explanation that the two war-like powers who had both been defeated by the Federation trading tech makes a lot of sense IMHO. I also liked their explanation for why the TOS Klingons look different from the Movie and later Klingons: The TOS Klingons were a genetic hybrid of human and Klingon to be used on the border with the Federation. The revolt of these second-class citizen hybrids explains some of the reason for the Klingon Civil War as well.
Well done! I have to say the FASA explanation from the tech treaty makes sense to me. I wish the vessels designed by them showed up in future series. Great video!
S.C. JFK I dunno man, I'm more partial to the theory that it was originally a Klingon ship, and they beat up the Romulans with it.
The Romulans proceeded to steal the blueprints (a very Romulan thing to do) and produce the ship themselves.
A cloaking device (like phasers, disruptors, shields, torpedoes etc...) could easily have been invented by both at roughly the same time. Perhaps the Romulans got captures at one point and the Klingons just reverse engineered them.
It's not particularly advanced technology, the federation had several designs of them themselves (metaphasic, etc), despite being banned from persuing the technology.