Mastering Poker: Knowing When to Fold AA Postflop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- Learning when to properly fold AA post flop is a key to increase your winrate in live NL cash games. Bart and the caller go over such a spot today.
0:00 - Intro
2:55 - Preflop
4:09 - Flop
5:12 - Multiway Defend Theory
6:47 - Turn
11:26 - River
13:04 - Hero Decision
Reference to Multiway Defend Theory reference is here: bit.ly/FREE-LESSON-CBET-BLUFF
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This is one of the most useful and entertaining poker content channels on TH-cam. This hand, in particular, was gut-wrenching because we've ALL been in this position with AA.
On an aside, the caller way underbet those Aces preflop. Get those blinds out of there! He was beat, but didn't have to be. I overbet AA preflop and happily drag in small pots in live poker. I hate how this played out for him.
I’m the same way. I prefer winning a small pot vs losing a huge pot against 9 2 off. Lol
This is a perfect example of why you dont open for 2.5X in deep cash games. In tournaments, everyone's shallow so it makes sense. In cash it's just inviting people to call with nonsense preflop and get great implied odds. Open to $80-$85 and you don't have to worry about BB having J4o or similar crap.
Exactly. 4 ways to the flop with Aces isn’t good at all.
43cc is another plausible combo that wasn’t mentioned. I think a strong reg would know this is good enough to go for value if he somehow got there this way with that hand.
Overall, I like the logic and the line across the board. Well played hand I think honestly. The only thing I’ll add is that when you reach this level and you are up against villains that are capable of taking this spot, you need to start mixing some check backs in this turn spot. A lot of competent players will know that this 10 is very good for the defend range. It sucks cuz you wanna go for value, but that’s the price to pay against good players to not put yourself in complete jail on hands line this.
What crossed my mind is he could have had a hand like qj and realized it would hard for him to have a lot of bluffs the way the hand ran out, and bluffed with that in mind. I’d be inclined to fold as I don’t think many villains are going to be balanced there, plus (less important) there’s better hands to bluff catch with. I liked your point about being forced to play more cautiously against capable players. Against a poor player, AA is a great hand here, but against a good player, you’re not crazy about playing for stacks.
Hard to credit V with 4c3c when hero flats the turn. Hero could have JT or Ac5c, and V's bottom 2 would be toast on the river. This hand was tricky for hero to play because he opened so small pre. He could actually have JT here with that open size and c-bet the flop, and then barrel turn. So V's turn x/r somewhat screams JT, and hero's flat call sort of screams over-pairs or over-cards that missed a straight/fush draw. I don't hate hero's turn bet, as played, but I do hate his small flop open size.
Agree about Turn bet Josh. If you take into account what Bart says about almost every River card completing a straight plus 9 flush outs its prob a spot to pot control and catch a few smaller R bluffs. Or get value from JQ type hands.
You are u likely to get 3st of value anyways.
I wonder if its worth sizing right down on T. Though I think I like better checking back sometimes here.
Tbf to caller even Bart didn't seem to notice how many bad straight outs there were till R came. I certainly hadnt in real time.
"The only thing I’ll add is that when you reach this level and you are up against villains that are capable of taking this spot, you need to start mixing some check backs in this turn spot. A lot of competent players will know that this 10 is very good for the defend range"
This is a great point. Because V over-called flop, he should be heavily weighted towards JX. And 2 very common hands that would call pre [as opposed to fold or raise] are QJ & JT. So I think a Q or T is a somewhat bad turn for hero.
Honestly, I thought the hand reading discussion was very interesting in this one. But I'm also a big believer in the most simple solution is usually correct. I think V simply had JT. It's a very commonly played hand that fits perfectly with how the action went.
Similar to a hand I've been thinking over the other night, but it was a queen hi flop that paired on the river, all draws missed vs BB, and he bet the exact same way. Folded AA, felt like the right move. GTOW on both of these hands is mostly folding overpairs here, you just can't beat his value.
Great video sir as always. I get 20 seconds to make a decision online. Not sure if I can do that deep game analysis
But if you practice it offline like this, a lot of it becomes 2nd nature. Sure you won't do as well as if you'd had 10 minutes and somebody to discuss it with, but you can still make pretty good decisions. After all, hero had time pressures and reasoned through the problem very similarly to Bart.
This seems like one of those spots where we don't know exactly how we're beat, we're just pretty sure we're beat. V has JT, Ac5c, TT, and 6c5c in his range, plus maybe 44 and 22. Hero has....overpairs, Ac5c, JJ, and TT, but it's really hard to give hero JJ or TT when he flats the turn x/r, so it's really just overpairs and Ac5c.
Something to consider.
When you realize it’s going to be a large pot by the river, push it in first. If he is weak, you take it down. If he is strong, you get outs. Either way you have a huge advantage shoving early. My guess is the villain had AJ. Not sure why, it’s just the combo I see.
I say because he offered you to see the hand for money, he had it. You don't need money to show someone a bluff because there's already an inherent ego boost reward for doing so.
The Donald gets it.
i show explotatively. never show the bluff to thinking player. let's the nits think they made a good fold
People need to learn how to fold AA pre.
If you have aces in early position and you end up playing for stacks after seeing a flop it’s usually your stack that goes away… just so you kids know… I’m not saying you’re not going to win most pots, or raise like crazy pre… but if you’re playing for stacks after the flop, alarm bells
Depends on the pre flop action. In this hand, as played pre flop, I'm not loving AA on the turn. But if hero opened for 3x-4x, got 3B, then 4B and got called, I think we have to get stacks in on the flop. If V has a set with JJ, we're just going broke.
I got stacks in on flop last night with AA vs KK, after opening then 4B'ing, and seeing a low disconnected flop. V was too happy to give me his whole stack.
Did villian make a mistake in river sizing/jam if AA, which has to be relatively high up in Heros range? Or to rep a straight/polarizing require a large sizing?
I don't think it's that polarizing, it's only 1.3x. I think JT+ is a slam dunk no thought shove for V.
Now we need the same video but for preflop
Question on the turn when he rise you.
A would you shovel
B would you fold
I wouldn't call on turn..
Great vid but how do I know when to fold AA preflop?
When you’re behind duh
You don’t lol. You have the theoretical best hand in the game
@@aquaticnuke but what if they have 72 and flop a straight?
selling the opponent the reveal of the hand - that's an interesting way to boost your profits at the table haha
What river card would hero have called on? Or should I ask what size bet he would have called? How many give ups does villain really have the way this played out? I can see how a jack or ten might be looked on as a favorable card & obviously an ace would be best. But what blanks are there when we start giving villain every possible straight draw? We have already eliminated all the clubs.
I just wound up feeling like this was one of those spots where we are calling turn to hope river goes check-check.
This all might sound like I want to fold turn or call river. I'm not necessarily opposed to those things, but it's not really what I'm getting at. I'm really more interested in what our read of villain is. It seems like we started giving him every possible semi-bluff combo imaginable & that makes it virtually impossible to get a clean river card. So if this villain really that wide on the turn for his check-raise I'm not sure I can fold.
By the way, I would not necessarily be in this spot ever. I hated hero's open size from UTG. I'm either limping & hoping to 3 bet or 4 bet. Or I'm opening much larger. Additionally, maybe my view of the action is skewed by mainly playing home games & online as opposed to playing in casinos. But I don't see villains check-raise in this spot being followed by a river check very often. Is that commonplace in casinos?
In theory, we're supposed to have some check-raise give-ups. But as played, when hero just flats the turn x/r, it's hard for him to have too many hands he can call with on this run-out. Hero is probably 3B'ing JJ/TT on the turn, so his hand looks like over-pairs, some over-cards that missed a club/straight draw, and the occasional Ac5c, but if V has the 5c in his hand, he can throw that out, and put max pressure on hero with a lot of river cards. This line from V sort of screams JT, because he's blocking hero from having JJ/TT, and is only losing to Ac5c on this runout.
@@1vailchris I thought JT was pretty likely as well.
@@1vailchris Also, I know we are supposed to " have some check-raise give-ups", but does that really happen often? In this particular hand it is done on the turn, from OOP, in a hand being played multiway against a UTG opener. I cannot convince myself this play is ever followed by a river check from villain. Maybe if there is some card the villain really hates... like if villain does have JT -- he might put hero on some AJ -- river ace might slow him down.
In the end, I just think this is another player dependent hand. There are guys I'd simply fold to on the turn & guys I'd want to see what they do on river. I think hero is beat here quite often though.
@@EllieBanks333 If I x/r as a semi- bluff, I try to do it in spots where I could have a very strong hand but my opponent shouldn't, expecting opponent to fold. If they call and my draw bricks out, I'm going to give up against opponents I see as more sticky. In this hand, the biggest semi bluff brick-out is KcQc, but that's a hand that might 3B pre. In this spot as V, I think I'd give up with KQ. Can't think of much else I could have that can take this line and give up.
Part of the reason I think V had JT is that it's doubtful V could have so quickly realized there are no safe river cards on this board, and he could represent so much thick value. Too many opponents are going to 3B jam with their overpairs, so JT is really the only hand that can take this line on turn without worrying about having to fold away his equity to a 3B jam.
Actually, I'm now wondering if V could play AcJx this way. TPTK, either with the nut flush draw or blocking the nut flush draw. A good player might know he could rep JT, preventing most opponents from raising. So he reps JT on the turn, with outs to the nuts and bluff outs if hero calls. It's something I've done occasionally, in the right spot against the right opponent. But I'm not doing it with the intent to bluff any river, because I honestly don't think I'd see how the river is going to be a scare card no matter what it is. I'm mostly just hoping I'm good or will be if I'm not already.
Brad Owen put a video out of him playing on WPT global and he was paying like 7 dollars every hand to see his opponents cards(The rake already was like 20 a hand) 😂. The WPT bag must be big
Sucks having no idea what villain thought of hero. If villain was well known he may have background on this guy (who sounds pretty legit) and deducted he was good enough to fold an overpair here
It’s still prob a fold, only thing I’m kinda hung on is the jam size by the semi famous villian, as he’s polarizing himself vs a newbie at the table rather than value betting. Anyone have thoughts on any of that?
Do you think villain's offer to sell the hand for $100 tells us anything useful about the hand? I feel like (but don't know) people would be more likely to share their value hands, and less likely to want to share bluffs.
I'm not understanding calling turn to fold river. So are we only calling river if the two or four pair?
Yeah this is what confused me most Bart is talking like every card is a scare card and completes? I think you have to ask yourself are you ahead on the turn? The answer as played I think is probably ahead, would have been interesting for hero to river jam.
There's a difference between calling a 30% to 80% pot bet on the river, and calling a 130% pot shove on the river.
If a 7-9 comes, it’s great. If a 10 comes, also probably great. The ace of diamonds is mostly good. K and Q aren’t the very best, but you can call down a lot. You can call other sizings depending on what comes too, this is just not a great card. Lots of decent cards out there.
Most likely hand is JT. Check call the flop n check raise when he had the best hand.
Think the villain could have Q 9 of clubs or any of the QJ KJ of clubs now turns their hand into a bluff realizing that the hero has a legit hand after calling the 3 bet check raise on the turn. I think the hero needs to shove on the turn or fold it on the turn. The guys only move really from stack to pot ratio is an all-in to gain max value or to deter sticky light calls from calling his bluff. Tough spot on the river. Hero needs to open min 100 pre flop to deter pot odds calls from several opponents.
I think 44 is more likely compared to straight
This is where live reads or key whether Bart loves them or not
AJ of Clubs
Feels like J 10
I would just fold to the turn checkraise
His Nearly min raise to open is just asking for a family pot. I never want 3 callers when I have AA.
If you are varying your raise size based on your holding, you are going to get exploited
@@genekboyerHe could balance with A5, AK, …
@genekboyer agreed but that is still to small an opening
@@genekboyeryou missed the point. His raise was minimal. If that's the standard UTG open size in that game, then it's fine. But if the standard UTG open size is >3x, and you open for 2.5x, it's asking for a multiway pot you'll be playing from OOP, which sucks.
❤
Turning kj clubs into a bluff
I would play J10 just like that.
Me too. I'd have offered to pay V the $100 if he showed me a hand that wasn't JT.
I think the more the they charge to see the hand, the more likely it is they had a value hand. Most people like to show bluffs but want to get paid a consolation prize when they feel like they missed out on value. Totally unempirical assumption, but I think it's true.
Really almost nobody fold AA post flop . Maybe somehow if a really super tight player like Jerry buss raised the pre flop raiser you know AA,is beat . Better idea is to know when your player won't ever fold AA or KK sometimes QQ post flop you can get there money easy as pie .
he turned a straight/flush/combo draw and bluffed the river
Bart, what do we learn from non-reveal hands?
Reveals are psychologically satisfying, but ultimately irrelevant.
Hand reading? Street comprehension? Decision making? Process oriented thinking? Ruleouts? Satisfying correct plays or discussing mistakes? Poker theory? Lack of result influenced action?
@@Optableanything else?
We learn to not be results oriented.
JT
AJc on the turn could make this check raise. Still watching…..
isnt this one of the better AA combos to call down with? if we're folding AA here, are we only calling down with JJ, 44 and A5cc? assuming we dont open 22
JJ and 44 are probably 3B'ing the turn, so they're not really in hero's range on the river. When hero just calls the turn x/r, his range gets super-compressed. It's basically just over-pairs, over-cards that missed a straight or flush draw, and Ac5c. Of those, only Ac5c can comfortably call river, as played.
Why play PLO over NLH
More gamblers playing PLO HOld ‘em has become nitty even at lower stakes that’s Bart’s answer.
Hold em has become so saturated with pros that its really hard to win. Even many recreational players play decently well these days.
PLO still attracts gamblers and many players play poorly.
If he offered to reveal for just $100, I'd be pretty confident that you were beat by a very std hand/combo (22;44;JTs;A5cc;65cc.) $100, or 4bbs is not a hefty price relative to the stakes and future EV that you could gain by seeing a bluff. I think you made a good fold on the offer but not for the right reason.
Did the caller say a J on the river is a brick?
Yes and I agree, I don't think the villian is ever check-raising the turn with a jack that isn't 2 pair, so if another jack hits the river it doesn't change things as you're still losing to the same hands (basically J10).
Yes as in it doesnt likely change anything...he was either beat already or is still winning....although hands like KJc QJc might check raise that turn and the jack wouldnt then be a brick
@rowan9683 On the turn hands like A-QJ of clubs thats all losing to A's pick up extra equity and take the lead on the that river.
@thaThRONe It makes absolutely no sense for AJ, KJ, QJ of clubs to raise the turn. That's just stupid.
@noex100 1st not all players play prefect or even well. AJ may very well think it's the best hand on the turn.
The turn incriminates me that he has JT
I had 5 / 3 of clubs bro
Funny, I was thinking I'd give him $100 to show, not sure why this player didn't? I'm fairly certain the guy had it, but I was too curious to see what he actually had, I would have paid! Good info too if he was bluffing! 👍😎✌🗽
P.S. Yeah, Andrew Neeme plays on WSOP Global I think, and he often pays to see the cards.
Because its a total waste of $100. That's why.
@@noex100no it’s not. It reaffirms your playing style and “GTO”.
@aquaticnuke Yeah, keep thinking that. Have fun with your thousands of dollars in debt, since I can tell you neither respect nor accumulate money.
@@noex100 We're not saying to do this every hand you lose, but in this case, which is probably one in a hundred similar hands, you might be curious enough to pay to see. If he is bluffing, and a regular player you see often, but haven't got a handle on yet, seeing the cards will also give you info.👍 ✌😎🗽
V has AJ no club LoL
i think he had 3-4 clubs
I'm sure if you counter-offered 50 he would have taken it
A 7 on river wouldn't have brought in a straight. Ie was the brick.
89cc
Not to the reveal, the hand that makes the most sense to me is A5 clubs.
Ummm in what world does a 10 25 game allow 5$ increments outside of 25 and 75 lol, anyways this is live poker 2 and 2.5x will get you rekt
i feel like 44 is very possible here. surprised it wasn't brought up at all, unless I missed it
Before reveal?? I must be stupid I'm never folding. If he has JJ so be it but really the only hand you are afraid of Ac5c. $100 for him to just BS you...lol, that's silly.
Isn't it $100 to see his hand before he mucks?
I'm scared of J-10 and a lot of other two pair hands that the villain could have when defending extremely wide preflop from the big blind after a 2.5x open and two calls.
@@gabrielrockman
@@gabrielrockmannot just two pair but also sets. 44 and 22 seem very credible to me. I could see those hands deciding to slow play on a dry flop but then deciding to raise a turn that puts a lot more draws out there.
Can we just get to the hand cmon on.
What are you going on about?
Really dude? Tap the skip forward button a few times it's not that hard
@@FlabbyButter it is kinda silly that it takes 5 minutes to get to flop
Encore sux
Too spicy for me, I'd fold.