Mastering Poker: The Art of Check Folding with Showdown Value
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- Sometimes you can end up with a medium strength to strong hand on the river and the right play may be to check fold. That doesn't mean that you will always lose if your intention is to check fokld at the end. Bart explains this concept in today's call.
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0:00 - Intro
0:37 - Preflop
3:02 - Flop
3:21 - Turn
9:00 - River
16:30 - Hero Decision
16:50 - Reveal
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Bart the hand analysis this hand is top notch. Thank you. The caller’s logic was sound too. I love the final tidbit of info that you give at the very end; and it makes perfect sense - considering hero’s line on flop and turn, hero must subtract some bluffs from villain’s range also.
Playing low-stakes in Vegas, it wouldn't shock me if V had AK here, and just didn't want to fold to hero's x/r on the flop, because hero's image is too aggro, or V just isn't in a folding mood. It's more surprising to me that V raised big pre with 33, given hero's take that the larger raise size means a bigger hand. It's also more surprising V didn't 3-bet the flop, since so many rec players are willing to get it all in with any set, but especially on boards where their opponents can have a lot of draws. Either way, I don't think I'm calling here with A2. V is not going to be bluffing enough with worse hands after hero x/r's the flop. Most recs with over-pairs are just going to be checking back. I'm giving V credit for a better Ace, at the very least, when he jams.
I agree. The other thing I'd say about continuing with AK AQ is that you sort of have to on a flop with this kind of texture. Otherwise people could just raise every time on flops like this & get you to muck AK AQ way too easy.
@@EllieBanks333 very good point, one I overlooked. I think most players, even bad ones intuitively understand that they can't just give up after raising pre and getting x/r'd by an aggressive opponent on the flop. Even if they don't really know poker theory, they correctly assume that opponents will sometimes give up when they call the opponent's x/r, so they still have a chance to improve or win the pot with a bluff.
I think even bad players fear "losing by accident" when they over-play KK/QQ against a hand like the caller has here, a draw that spikes top pair on the turn. The x/r followed by the turn barrel and river check isn't a line they understand, so they're willing to just check-back too often for this to be a bluff. This just isn't a spot where most of the player pool is going to jam river with a hand hero beats.
Do most players even c-bet the flop with whiffed AK/AQ on a low board like this though? Especially when it’s 3 ways?
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Bad recs with pre-flop sizing tells certainly do, nearly 100% of the time. They play with the belief that even if AK/AQ is behind on the flop, it'll catch up by the river. They're not folding until they're 100% certain they're beat.
But also, even a good player will sometimes c-bet AK/AQ in this spot, because the strong hands in his range will want to get value and charge opponents for their draws. If you c-bet here with all your over-pairs, flopped sets, flopped straights, and flopped 2-pair, you're going to have to balance that out by c-betting all your good draws and your better over-cards. If you never c-bet here with AK/AQ, especially AQ of diamonds, you're probably losing value.
@@1vailchris well I’m certainly C-betting with the diamond draws yeah. And maybe AdKx and AdQx. If you really want to go down the line then perhaps throw in AcKc and AcQc which has the backdoor.
But hero’s hand plus the board blocks all those.
This episode had really good analysis…some areas I have not considered this thoroughly.
What is the actual episode # where the suited aces are discussed?
I think something we have to look at is does villian have an open limping range. If he does then you can take out 78dd and 89dd, and he would only be left with like 2-3 bluff combos. And given the fact that this is low stakes and rivers are underbluffed, especially a jam, I think it becomes a fold
If he has a limping range he limps 33, 55, 66, A6
@@a_canal I was surprised he had 33 here, given the pre-flop sizing tell hero says he had. I was expecting AK/AQ here.
Do you think that real time AI browser solvers will completely kill online poker it progresses?
Yes. Absolutely. Online is already a space where people have a clear advantage with RTA solvers available etc.
What tips can you give to NOT pay off that bet where you know you’re beat, but feel like you have to pay to see?
Like when you improve on the river and the villain checks super fast, then snap shoves vs your half pot bet and then turns up with the effective nuts 😂
Hell yeah 100%!
I still strongly disagree. It will make for a good study tool with thr ability to input more accurate ranges and bet sizes but it's still no where near accurate enough to be useful in live play.
A poker hud for online is far more broken than solvers and likely always will be until we get full on ai hud's with built in solvers.
People see solvers and ai and get worried but no one puts respect on the poker hud and how truly game breaking they are and have been.
Just a matter of time before even live poker is ruined by AI and Transhumanism. Smart glasses already can give you a monitor in front of your eyes. A technology that can do that and is built into the human eye, if DARPA hasn’t developed it yet, would make using real time assistance at a live table possible.
Sounds science fictiony I admit, but the merger of biological humans with machines & electronic tech is underway, it’s the new cutting edge
At least there is presently a discussion whether this might be a good idea or not
@@Way2fast4u82work on your mental game. tell yourself what you’re going to do ahead of time if you get check raised
Bart I guess you haven’t played low-stakes live in a while because caller is absolutely correct when he says the player pool raises to a larger size preflop with top of range types of holdings…. This isn’t an absolute truth, but is the case more often than not.
What do you mean by top of range types of holding can you elaborate on that please?
@@khanhnguyen-rs3hdsomeone with AA or KK raises to a larger amount. Say 20 or 25 in a 2-5 game. And with a hand like 78s they raise to 15
in a 1/3 cash game, if everyone is raising (RFI) to 10 or to 15, many players will raise to 20 or more with hands like AA KK QQ JJ TT AKs, AKo.. it's a preflop-sizing tell... however with a hand like 98s, 66, T8s, QTo, etc they will raise to a more standard size.
Honestly I may fold too much but there’s no way I after he calls the check raise I would have call the jam.
Lot of people saying it’s a fold but I don’t hate hero’s river call personally. Every draw bricks and hero beats every draw. And it’s a single raised pot so surely V can have a ton of missed draws?
And I agree with hero that a fair fraction of V’s value hands are either 3-betting flop or jamming turn. There’s so many bad river cards for a set on the turn.
Why semi bluff on the flop out of position especially with bad kicker, if all in comes from mid age tight player I fold but if all in comes from this caller type I probably call. Caller check with internation of trapping on the river.
I think AK off with K of diamonds. Or AQ with Q of diamonds. I think plays the hand the same way right??
çok derin bir el gerçekten. ez x/c, ez x/c olması vesilesiyle x/f oluyor. sarhoşken düşündürttü.
Hero said he’s wide passive , do they bluff ? Not really
I've found the frequency is almost never when they river jam. River jams for this type of player is only for the strongest hands they see. Usually if they try to bluff they will put what looks like a weak value bet out there, or only half of their chips out there when they have less than a pot sized bet left in their stack.
I'm wondering what hand villain put hero on to warrant an all-in call?
Flopped straight, Ad2d, Ad4d, Ad7d. If I'm V, I'm not afraid of 66, 55, or 65 checking river after the 2/3-bet on turn. Standard plays from V.
Oh just listen the call and you’ll find out
Villain was just clicking buttons. He's not trying to range hero in any way.
I disagree... A2s > A6s in terms of playability but sure all in ICM equity in a tournament or something not quite as good. Pokersnowie seems to agree in the way it constructs its bluff ranges in that there are a lot of spots where A6s is folding but A2s might be making a 3-bet bluff.
I don't know if it matters exactly which is worse most of the time as much as it matters that A2s is a significantly worse hand than people may think. Even just compared to how much weaker it is than A3s where they look close at first glance but A3s has a lot of really nice properties compared to A2s that make a sizable difference.
@@qazzaqstanI agree here. A lot of people play 67 suited compared to 63. It is much more easier to overplay a flopped straight into a hand that has you crushed when you have A2. Also your kicker is almost never going to play unless it hits and it can easily get counterfeited. A6 isn't much better, but it is an easier fold and less likely to put you in bad situations.
Calling the check raise filters the villain range so much that the blank ace and the 6 are actually better for his range. He doesn't have much 3bets on flop, and considering the texture and your hand I would say he has maybe 1-2 bluffs, given he never bluffs those overpairs, barely calls with anything but sets or 2 pairs - which will not bluff on the river if the 6 ruin them (they don't bluff ace 3 or 5)
I think the hand had 2 huge blunders, the turn big bet was definitely a mistake, and the calling the river jam just wasting you money. I would probably fold against any sizing on the river and would check all my range on the ace turn, given how value heavy villain on the flop.
@8:07 People won't find a lot of Ace high check raises on the flop?? I would think the nut draw would comprise the majority of the flop raise bluffs with 65 & sets raising their made hands.
My personal experience is that flop check-raises are usually 2P or sets, especially on wet boards. Good players will mix in some semi-bluffs with their draws, but the majority of the low stakes player pool are looking to bloat the pot with their made hands that can be outdrawn.
I don’t like 3 betting this hand pre because 1. I don’t want to thin the field making overflushing someone more likely when they fold junk sooted hands to a 3 bet
and 2. I want to keep the pot small for more advantageous odds drawing, better SPR
3. you don’t need to build a pot vs fun players before you make your hand when they will put in the $ after you do
Would love for Bart to see this comment and speak about each point you made, because while they do have validity in some spots, in general they're just drastically wrong and it's a very common way of thinking amongst slightly losing/breakeven rec players. To just address point 1 as an example; you're going to make way more by squeezing here than you are w/ the very rare occasion you flush v flush someone - not to mention you still won't fold out broadway diamond hands, and you're also gnna run into coolers yourself occasionally e.g. say 2nd best str8s & 2ps.
@@Javis586 squeezing w A2 OOP vs. fun players who did not come to the casino to fold and don't care what you have hmmmm?
btw Ive played for a living since 2005
Tons and tons of people are so unbalanced with their raise sizing at lower stakes. They’ll make it like 15 with suited connectors and such and then 25 with 10-10+
I put him on 5s full.
A fine call on the river imho. LJ showed up with 33 and he shoulden't be opening much of 22-55 in theory as far as i know. He probably also opens all suited connectors too(especially in live game), there shoulden't be many high Aces in(Ac turn greatly reduces the chance) and he might check those back anyway. All his value combos have high incentive to jamm the turn so that reduces value combos too. So for bluff combos :87s, 9c8c, any FD, 44, 54 to be highly optimistic. K high FD and better make better checks but still some people just have their finger on the trigger.
All the no diamond value combos have only one incentive to get max value and if multi-way, realize fold equity for heads up. If V is putting H on draw, jamming is disastrous. If V has a diamond with a pair, jamming is also disastrous. It's a solid call nonetheless.
If V is putting H on draw i woulden't call jamming disastorus, there are some draws that can even call it off for about BE and it's not expected for H to have much no EV bluffs on that board and there is not many clean rivers to call H down. H probably doesn't follow trough with all of his bluffs on the river either. All that considered from V perspective he probably doesn't lose more that 50$ EV(noncalculated guess) by jamming all his value combos on the turn and saveing himself lots of headache on the river.@@Optable
i think 100% call on the river.. 98dd 87dd KQdd QTdd JTdd all need to jam the river.. and i don't think he actually has that many full houses as sets and two pair have strong incentive to jam turn..
What could the villain have possibly had that would have given hero the pot? There is nothing. K-5?
Q ♦️K♦️
Humans don’t bluff the river at proper frequencies at the elite level. You’re rarely getting bluffed here at 2-5
You’d be surprised, one of the biggest things low stakes fish do is value bluff, and by that I mean they’ll bet they’re over pairs here despite the ace in plain sight simply because you’ve checked to them. A lot of them feel that a bet is mandatory whenever they have a decent pair in the pot gets checked to them, simply because they do not understand what a value Bet even is
I like the heros check on the river. I just think you're up against a hand like AK too much of the time. Would KKs, QQs, JJs, really call BOTH a check raise on the flop AND a strong turn bet when an Ace shows up? I like an exploitative fold on the end. I don't understand the call at all. Ok, I'm never giving credit for a boat that's just a cooler but how many AK, AQ, AJ, A10 hands are there? Around 32 combos? ALL of them beat you. Would they get there this way? OF COURSE. Most flop raises are draws on that board and even if "hero" hit a pair on the flop once the river comes any 2 pair combos are counterfeited. So any 7 kicker or better is beating you. Way too optimistic.
Did you even listen to the call? After the flop action + turn Ac villain has none of the ace/broadway hands.
@@checkmugged Yes I listened to the absurd opinion that villain has none of the ace/broadway hands. What's YOUR excuse for being that stupid? Seriously. As I explained if you bothered to even read what I wrote, "MOST FLOP RAISES ARE DRAWS" with the occassional nuts thrown in. So YEAH he can have AK, AQ, etc. And if your opinion is he can't have those hands - well then villain almost ALWAYS has full houses which makes the call even stupider.
@@checkmugged I listened to the call, and was guessing V had AK/AQ, the way this played. Bad recs love playing any suited ace and any offsuit ace with a halfway decent kicker. Hero's river-call was terrible. Literally nothing he can beat here.
Not even close to 32 combos. Plus, villain would need to c-bet and call a check-raise at 100% frequency in order for us to assume he as all of the actual possible combos in the first place. Also, most players at these stakes don't even value bet river in villain's spot with AK. They're just happy to show it down considering how polar hero was repping earlier in the hand.
We did this we did that didn’t realize you could have more than one person to a hand
Lol
This is pretty typical phrasing when discussing hand analysis
If he bet 300 I fold. That 600 I'm calling. Wants a fold.
If you give him 6-5 for value, why not give him 5-4, 5-3, and 4-3 as bluffs?
He opened from the Lojack
@@seslocrit9365 Then why give him 6-5? 6-5 isn't that much better of a hand than 5-4.
Those hands don't necessarily think they need to bluff when they can beat all of hero's missed draws/give ups.
Whole hand is overplayed
Way too much thought process for a 2-5 game. Villains rarely put that much thought into what they're doing
It’s a 2/5 game gto isn’t really relevant