The Garden of Eden w/ Pastor Jeff McCullough "Ground Zero"
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Another great discussion! Pastor Jeff McCullough of @HelloSaints Latter-day Saint Greg Matsen discuss the Garden of Eden.
A few months ago, I sat down with Jeff to ask him about his understanding of the Garden of Eden. It was obvious to me that this was an area that needed to be discussed and that it offers the framework to better understand many of the core differences in our theologies. We agreed to sit down and follow up on the conversation. This episode is that follow-up.
We touch on:
The beguiling of Eve
What does "death" mean anciently?
The Pre-Mortal World
What was the plan of God?
How does the Garden of Eden inform both God's Plan and the purpose of mankind?
At what point could Adam and Eve procreate?
The Tree of Life
The necessity for mankind to have Faith in Christ.
And much more!
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Thank you - I loved hearing this conversation between Pastor Jeff and yourself! I do agree that this difference in view of the Garden of Eden and the Fall is likely one of the most important things, to understanding the differences between Evangelicals (and maybe most mainstream Christians) and Latter-Day Saints.
You did a good job of trying to understand our beliefs in The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints. I like to hear your side as well. I loved seeing your wife Joy on this one. It was a good call. She is beautiful and has cute dimples. We can all work together following our Savior . God bless your family and welcome to Utah
Well done though difficult to hear. Pastor Jeff bore his testimony with the knowledge he was willing to accept. And spoke from a position of authority in stating multiple times this is what we “know” this is what the scriptures say.
When having revealed revelation I feel some of those vocabulary words would of been better used when teaching the revealed word of the restoration. Maybe taking such a stance would of been combative. I don’t know. I enjoyed it but there are words I feel add power and authenticity and authority to what is being said when explained. Keep up the good work Gregg much appreciated. Take what I’m fumbling to say as a thank you and perhaps there is something for us to learn as we proclaim the restoration and restored truths with our vocabulary.
Did this prior to your final testimony. Your final testimony was very good. Thank you again!
I just got the opportunity to listen to this podcast. Not only do I feel that you did a great job helping Jeff see our perspective but u helped me have a greater understanding as well.... Thank u for promoting the Lord's work as well as doing it in a kind meaningful way.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Awesome conversation! So many insights and things to ponder brought up!
Thanks for listening
Great discussion! It makes me think of a saying I've heard. Something like... "We are not mortal beings come here to earth to have a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings come here to have a mortal experience."
Great conversation. Thank you. 😊❤️🙏🇦🇺
Our pleasure!
I love both these men! And I love when GOD shows me I’m wrong. The willingness to be wrong and corrected By GOD is so wonderful. Way to show us how to have open minded learning.
I believe that God gave two conflicting laws to Adam, and Eve. (Just as He did with asking abraham to kill his son) for a very WISE reason. The first was to not partake of the fruit, and the second was to multiply and replenish the Earth. One had to be broken in order for the other to be upheld! and eve made a conscious choice to break the lesser law to live the higher one.
And remember…There would have been no need for Jesus Christ had the fall not taken place! To say that the fall was the greatest tragedy is to say we would have never needed Christ! Isn’t it absolutely amazing how God uses all things for good!
Love y'all!
I’m so grateful for the clarity the restored gospel gives. Thank you for the peaceful discussion.
****I know this post is lengthy BUT I promise it is WORTH IT. The Plan of Salvation for God's children is AMAZING!!!*****
WOW!! What an interesting conversation from both perspectives!! So much similarity and yet so much difference in the way we view this as fellow mortals.
Becoming a parent myself has better helped me understand these principles. I view a Father in Heaven who created offspring which He loved fully and completely and as such wanted us to reach and achieve our fullest potential and happiness which would be to become as He is. I feel we see this same concept as a parent here on earth. Our greatest desire for our mortal children is to grow, to progress, to be successful, to be happy, to become parents one day, to experience the full measure of this mortal experience.
I see God our Father wanting the same for us, His children. He wants us to become as He is as well. Now this is a process, just as it is here on earth. We begin here as infants, innocent, with very little capability. However, we are able to make slow progression a little at a time and over time to learn line upon line, precept on precept until we reach that same full potential. I believe God, in part, gave this family construct here to pattern after His own in Heaven so we could better see and understand this same and continued concept.
Our Father in Heaven however will never force upon us any of this progression. The key here is AGENCY!! There is no true progression without personal choice and choice denotes options/opposition. So in the council in heaven we were at that early stage of progression (like an infant) as Divine Spirit sons and daughters of God. We were created as His offspring, the same pattern as we see here on earth with all life. The Next Step would be to receive a moral body. This is key to our progression because our bodies would fulfill multiple areas of our progression. We believe God has an immortal body but we were not to this point yet. We needed to be tested with a mortal body (natural man) first which would naturally be in opposition to our Spirit through the FALL so that we could have the opportunity to Choose Right over Wrong. There has to be that Opposition between a Mortal Body (fallen as natural man which is in opposition to God) and our Spirit (which knew and lived with and loved God). Without this, where is the test and the choice and the opportunity to overcome and progress to become like Him. (2 Ne. 2 talks all about this principle) A parent doesn't carry the child around forever. They allow the child to learn to walk which include lots of Falling and hurt and crying and pain. They allow them to make choices because if they made them all for them, there would be no progress and development and learning through experience, trial and error.
Our children on earth don't always get it right and hopefully they learn from that and make better, healthier choices as they go. We also as God's children, we don't always get it right, which He knew would happen, but is again key to our learning, developing and progressing. It was imperative we learn through our experience because that's the only way to learn it fully.
This leads to the need for a Savior on our behalf. Because God is perfect only perfection can live with Him and quite frankly would even be comfortable being in His presence. We needed a Savior as part of this progression Plan so that we had the opportunity for continued Choice or Agency. Without a Savior, once we were Fallen there was no point in Agency anymore because even making one mistake (which was inevitable as mortals) we would be imperfect and doomed. So Christ Atonement here was Absolutely Essential to our continued Agency to make choice between Good from Evil and hence progress.
So as I see this. God created us as Spirit children (the beginning developmental state for us). He wanted us to progress to become like Him and reach our fullest, greatest, happiest potential. So He had a PLAN in place to do this which included Creating an Earth for us to come to and develop and be tested with this mortal body, to continue that development so that we would one day be ready and for an immortal body as He has and ideally have progressed in our fight with Spirit over matter (natural man/mortal fallen bodies) through our Agency and the Mercy of Christ in Repenting when we messed up so that we could continue to change, develop and Progress. This Key Element of a Savior was known to God. Someone would have to satisfy the demand of Justice for a broken law which we would break over and over as part of our learning process. CHRIST is the one in the Premortal world, when God the Father presented the Plan to us, who agreed to fil the role as SAVIOR and REDEEMER in order to satisfy Justice for our mistakes so we could continue to Choose to REPENT, and change in this our developmental progress in learning to overcome evil as He has and become worthy to be again in His Holy and perfect presence. As mortals we would also experience Death which Christ would overcome through the Ressurection.
So back to Adam & Eve and their choice in the Garden of Eden, here's how I see that. God our Father would not force mankind from His presence (going back to Agency). Though this was His plan as part of our progression to be in a Fallen state so that we had that opposition in place to continue to have choice, learn, and progress by our own decision, not His. He would not force man from His presence, they had to choose that opportunity for continued growth and development. In God's own words as we read in Genesis 2:16-17 look at what He's really saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God says don't eat this because you will die if you do. Now this death is Both Physical, as the body would become fully mortal at that point but also a Spiritual Death or in other words that separation from God. My belief is that He was giving them this command as the knowledge (or a warning if you will) of what would happen if they chose to eat this fruit. He would not force them into this state or decision. It must be by their choice to become Fallen Man in order to continue on this path of growth and development to ultimately become like Him. It was part of His plan for us but he gave us again the ability to Choose it for ourselves.
The growth comes through adversity. Just as a muscle can't become strong and develop without adversity or resistance, and would atrophy if not continually experiencing resistance, so would we as God's children. We must experience that as our children do here on earth in order to progress.
So YES, we feel that Eve and Adam made a very Hard but very "Wise" decision. Satan knew eating the fruit would make them more like God in the sense that they would know Good and Evil by so doing (Genesis 3:5). Eve decided for the reasons stated in Genesis 3:6 to partake of the fruit, one of which was to become "wise." Interestingly enough God verifies that truth that in eating of the fruit Adam and Eve took a step in becoming more like them when in Genesis 3:22 He says, "Behold the man is become as one of us (indicates man was not already) to know good and evil (which now allows for choice, further agency and growth....how can you choose if you don't have the knowledge to choose from). This decision put us on that path to be tested whether we would choose the Good over the Evil to become like Him. He knew this would not be a perfect process and we would need a SAVIOR to satisfy the demands of Justice which our sin creates, in choosing evil and breaking the law over and over as we continue to strive to do better, and make better choices for Good over Evil. Christ came and fulfilled that mission and role. Thus we still have choice and the hope to become like God and come back into His presence in a fullness of joy as He is.
What a Beautiful, Majestic, Perfect PLAN....Just as He is!!!
I loved this conversation. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I learned a few insights not just from Greg but also from Jeff. Conversations like this bring nuance and helps us all to understand important truths in a different light that we may not have considered before. It’s amazing what God can teach us through all of his children.
We learned as much as possible in the pre existence then we had to come to the earth to continue our learning. Being in a fallen state is an important step in our progression. Other religions don't know about eternal progression. They just think we have to keep from going to hell. That puts a whole different view on things.
So grateful for the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with continuing revelation to answer our questions and to know where we came from, why we are here and where we are going, truth is absolute. Thank you, Greg, for the work you put in to these podcasts. God bless you.
You’re welcome
Why couldn't we be born fallen? We were created in the image of a perfect being, therefore we must have been created perfect. But keeping us in that perfect state would have denied us the opportunity to become fallen; to leave the presence of our heavenly father and exercise our free agency. Love the way these discussions ask questions I've never thought of and challenge me to formulate my own answers. Don't know if they fit 'official church doctrine', but I don't fit anything official either.
Oh I love this! Where our world is getting more and more crazy and more and more hateful and more and more contentious, I love that people can disagree and be respectful and not fight. I love that people can disagree and also agree and not fight for the sake of fighting. And not fight at all.
I've been digging deep in Adam and Eve lately. I think there is a lot more than meets the eye with this story. The hardest part is figuring out what is symbolic and what is literal and what the goal of the story is.
One of the things that the Temple teaches is that Adam and Eve's story is also the story of each individual.
When Mormon teaches his son Moroni about the baptism of infants he establishes the concept of an age of accountability. Explaining that before that point children cannot sin because they cannot understand their consequences of their actions.
This seems to me to be the point at which each individual also "eats" of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Bad), having their eyes opened to understand that distinction.
I look forward to the discussion on Grace and Works. I have found Protestant scholar Mathew Bates book, Allegiance Alone, a very enlightening examination of that relationship. I think he expresses aspects of the LDS position in a way that has expanded my ability to articulate it to myself and others.
I thoroughly enjoy these discussions. It models how we can discuss our differences in a humble and kind way.
Amazing what a living prophet and modern scripture adds to those who have no knowledge of these things...
I would recommend a book written by Melinda Wheelwright Brown entitled "Eve and Adam: Discovering the Beautiful Balance". It does cover a deeper look into the decision that Eve made in bringing about the Fall of mankind with Adam. That decision was truly a faith filled one in trusting that our fore-ordained Saviour, Jesus Christ, would fulfill His promised role and redeem her and all of her posterity. Faith in Christ was her true motivating factor not Satan's beguiling. She recognized that there truly was no other way forward and she convinced Adam of these truths and together they chose to accept the Fall and move forward with Faith in Christ. Knowledge of what truly happened in the Garden of Eden is the important key to understanding the true doctrine of Christ and it makes all the difference in how we worship, honour and revere Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour.
I love it whenever Jeff testifies of Christ and Jesus’ mission (e.g., at 51 minutes). I love his conviction and love for Jesus and Christ’s salvation! This is the common ground we have with our protestant brothers and sisters that makes us all Christians regardless of other differences of opinions on theology.
That was so good! 😊
This was wonderful. Neither one is in an eco chamber now. This seems like the seeking of understanding President Nelson encouraged us to do.
Thank you both! As an adult (to LDS) convert, raised Catholic in a Baptist and Pentecostal town, I truly do appreciate these discussions. One of the reasons for my conversion was that there were more substantial answers to sometimes easy, sometimes hard questions, whereas too often the answer I received to questions (in my Catholic youth) was ‘it’s a mystery of faith’ (which I saw from Pastor Jeff several times … not in those specific terms, lol 😂). As time has past (just over 30 years now) and my understanding has increased, through knowledge and testimony under the tutelage of the Holy Ghost; my testimony is only stronger! One of my core beliefs remains that all will have the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus and when He returns (very shortly, IMO) He will say ‘Follow Me’ and that most, if not all good people of faith WILL Follow Him and the complete truth will be known to all. Again IMO, these discussions are part of ‘the gathering’! Thank y’all both again for all you do!
Hopefully the there was nothing offensive in my comment, one of the things I love is the brotherhood that you two exemplify! You are both doing GOD’s will and work, IMO!
As a child in Primary School in the 80s 90s we wrote tests or Classwork called "fill in the missing blanks" In the substitute for Prophets one can only fill in the missing blanks with mystery. I'm 40, my family are members of the Reformed Church, I can't recall the last time they went to Church (decades). As a young man I can not tell how many Churches I've been to. I was not aware I was even "seeking" at the time. South Africa is saturated with Churches as with Bottlestores I don't know which we have the more of. For the first time in these past 24 years I have found stability in The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. I've found rest.
I am also a convert from Catholicism. I think Catholicism gets the mystery part right. I think we Latter Day Saints sometimes overstate what we can know.
My hubby (he passed away in 2007 at a Young age) was always seeking the truth. He even admits to being a bit of a ratbag and rebel (lol). His dad took him to church of England when he was a kid but he didn't go as a teen. One ofhis partners was Greek Orthodox. He also checked out Scientology, Assemblies of God and a few others. The mother of his son was an inactive member and her mum was active. He lived around the corner from a chapel yet never saw missionaries. I was trying to get back to full activity when we met and he agreed to go church every week (I suffer anxiety so this helped). I never pressed him to join. He met with missionaries while I was away for work and wasn't ready. Nearly 3 years later when his favourite missionary was visiting he decided to baptised. All that time, he had been living a pretty good lds life and he told me he had been waiting for a flash or sign that the church was 'true' and all this time he had known because he always had a good feeling inside, like he was warm. There are many people who aren't quite ready, for one reason or another. They may be going through something or have a role to play elsewhere. Everything will work out.
@@elk2804 amen. Appreciate you sharing.
Love this conversation . When is part 2
29:30 I would add that we need to know sorrow and pain to have a fullness of joy.
Good conversation. And I would recommend another youtube video by Christ community Church. It's called "An evangelical-mormon conversation" It addresses several of the same talking points.
I loved hearing both Greg and Jeff's thoughts on this! It's so heartwarming to hear Christians of different faiths and beliefs to be respectful of one another's beliefs. It's great to ponder these things no matter what religion we are! Thank you!
The necessity of the separation from God, or fall of Man, is to give us complete access to our agency. It is to give us every opportunity to exercise faith and to choose God. If we never left the garden, then we never would have had full opportunity to know life with and without him. If we do not know life without him, as well as with him, we are not making full use of our agency. God will not infringe upon our agency. He created us to be agents to act, NOT to be acted upon. He will not force himself upon us!
Like I've told the elders in our class: This plan is FOR us, but it is ABOUT HIM, The Savior of the World.
His Work and His Glory... Moses 1:39.
This conversation gave me a sure understanding of why we need living prophets and don't need to look at near Eastern ideology for answers.
This is a necessary exchange between two respected individuals and knowledgeable on the two perspectives of what the Garden represents to their individual theologies. We can all learn from this exchange and remove “our” assumptions. Thank you.
As a younger person I understood agency perfectly ;), it was about me getting to make choices that I felt immediately improved my position without consideration for consequences. It was a perfect understanding from a selfish perspective. As an older person with a family I now understand agency differently. I want my children to make the decisions that are best for their future even if it means delayed gratification and sacrifice .
If I invite my young adult children to the family reunion I want them to come because they want to be there. They should want to go because they know these are their people, the ones who love them and have their back no matter what, and they have their back no matter what. I want them to be excited and willing to make sacrifices to be there if necessary. If they go out of compulsion or obligation and then wish they had not come once they got there; not only will they not be happy, they will bring others down as well.
When the law became a "broken heart and contrite spirit" it was asking for our agency to choose God, to want to be there, to be willing to sacrifice and do whatever it takes to get back. Agency enables us to choose Him, not just for him to choose us, like it was in the garden. He has chosen us, we are ALL redeemed through the Savior, but we have to choose that. This proving ground for us to chose God could only be done in a fallen world.
I love what Pastor Jeff is doing and I hope that our Christian brothers and sisters can see we can all work together to share the love of God and Jesus Christ to the world. But these discussions give insight to the same circumstances that sent a 14 year old boy to a grove of trees looking for clarification. Look at the clarification on this "foundational" topic in just a few short verses:
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who aknoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.
This topic is so important and so foundational that a loving Heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, gave us revealed clarification. Christ's church did not end with the apostles, the heavens have not been shut. God reveals Himself today just as he did previously through prophets and apostles, through personal revelation and through scripture.
Greg thanks for being a voice for us. Not many people could do this kind of conversation without stumbling all over the place. And thanks to Pastor Jeff for being willing to engage to help bring people together with out conflict. Thanks
Appreciate it!
Both of you would make fine bishops. Thanks for the work and I love learning about Christ. It’s refreshing to see two different faiths coming together and finding commonality. God bless you both.
Lovely conversation. Reinforces that I'm so grateful to be a Latter-day Saint. The Doctrine makes so much more sense and we actually have answers to do many things that are a mystery to Pastor Jeff. It's really interesting to learn what he believes tho.
Since you are doing another video with Jeff, on the Garden of Eden, I would love for you to explore with him. Why god would want us as children to be raised in the garden of Eden. Of course, he explained how we differ, believing that we lived before with God and they do not. Do you know that we were sent to earth chose this so that we could book recipe like God. I do think this uniquely LDS doctrine; however, I would like you to interview him what that would look like to be in the garden. And I would assume when everybody choose to follow God, and he lives with him in his presence. Should we ever really choose to be with him? What would be even the purpose? Perhaps just to be created, since their belief is that we did not live before our first births.
(Moses 1:39) For behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
It really is all about Him and His will, but His will and His plan is all about us.
(Romans 8:16-17)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Pastor Jeff as to your question of why man must fall? That answer was provided succinctly by Lehi in his lecture about how there must be opposition in all things. Re-read the begining chapters of 2nd Nephi where Lehi is counceling his children.
A big thank you to Jeff for hearing you out on response to whether the gospel from a Latter-day Saint perspective is about us and not the Savior! That feels so wrong to contemplate! He first loved us, He gave us everything. We are nothing without Him and wouldn't even have life. He loves us and blesses us, but we owe everything to Him and strive to do His will.
I think we agree whole heartedly that we were created to be in Gods presence. The main difference being when and where our creation took place. Latter-Day Saints with the belief of being literal spirit sons and daughters of God, progressing in His presence. The council in Heaven spoken of was God telling us He wanted more for us. For that, we needed physical bodies in a fallen world with out God to prove our love and faith in him.
Second thought that my logical brain couldn’t get around was Jeff’s description of evangelical belief on our purpose to live in Gods presence in the Garden of Eden for ever, yet Christ wasn’t a plan B in that scenario. If I had a plan A, to which I knew wasn’t going to happen because I intentionally designed it with the potential to fail. If Christ wasn’t plan B, but was in fact part of that plan A means God wanted them to fail and there for our intended purpose was not to remain in the Garden.
As I'm listening to this, I have the thought that fall from the Garden of Eden is symbolically repeated whenever a child leaves their parents' home. The cause of maturation is different, but in both cases, the Adam, Eve, and the child all have gained a better understanding of the world, good, and evil. And they leave the protection of their parents.
Greg, I am late to the comment party, so I don't know if my observations have already been addressed. I felt that greater emphasis could have been placed on how much God the Father values the fundamental right He has given us of agency. The entire plan of salvation is designed around our right to choose. We needed the experience of mortality, not only to gain a body, but to exercise our right to choose. The greatest growth comes from choosing. Greatest blessings come from choosing obedience and faith. Punishment comes from choosing to be disobedient, but we learn and can grow from sin, if we repent. He knew we would sin, and therefore the plan for a Savior was chosen from the preexistence. I thought it interesting that Jeff thought that if Eve hadn't sinned we would all have lived a blissful existence in the presence of God. What? Eve, the great and noble Eve could be tempted but none of her children could be tempted? If Eve hadn't transgressed, I bet Cain would have.
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I must applaud Pastor Jeff's willingness to say, "I don't know." And it was said multiple times. Sc For me, that was a genuine sign of a learner. And, the fact that he quoted from our own scripture was a big plus as well! What a beautiful display of two individuals coming together to discuss differences without everything going off the rails and contention entering in. I applied both of you for the fine example you have set! For me it really highlights two people that are not in the same denomination, but remain Brothers in Christ!
Before we came to earth... we were already in the state of living with God in a world that had unconditional love being felt at all times. It was the separation that then allowed a real true choice to either follow God... or not. The veil was put into place that where we come to earth and do not remember our pre-mortal life. We now do not have constant communication with God as we did when in Heaven with Him. This is why it is important to understand the premortal world and why God did what he did by putting us on a planet on our own.
I love Pastor Jeff and truly appreciate everything he is doing. Having listened to this wonderful conversation, I am forever grateful to have a testimony and knowledge of the simple yet endlessly profound plan of salvation as revealed through the Restored Church and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I feel exactly the same ❤
I love that both of you are explaining both sides so in depth. I’m curious, Pastor Jeff, if Adam and Eve never partook of the fruit but some of their descendants did, would only the people who ate the fruit be kicked out and everyone else would get to stay with God? Maybe there’s not an answer but this video got me wondering. 😊
@michellecallaway3456
DISCLAIMER: All of the following after the quote at the beginning is strictly my conjecture and opinions.
"...if Adam and Eve never partook of the fruit but some of their descendants did, would only the people who ate the fruit be kicked out and everyone else would get to stay with God?" No and yes.
No, Adam and Eve's descendants who ate the fruit would not be kicked out of the Garden because Adam and Eve would not have had any descendants to be kicked out of the Garden because those descendants would not have been around to eat the fruit in the first place. For Adam and Eve to have descendants, they would have had to have transgressed God's law of not partaking of the fruit by partaking of it which they partook of. And when they did, that gave them the ability to commit further "sin"*, if you know what I mean. And because of that ability to commit further "sin", they were able to have descendants. Now this is speaking literally.
Now hypothetically speaking, if Adam and Eve were able to have descendants without having partaken of the fruit, and some of those descendants had partaken of the fruit instead of Adam and Eve, I am pretty sure that those partakers would most likely have been kicked out and, I would have to think, any of >their< descendants would have lost any inheritance they might have otherwise had just because of their ancestors partaking of the fruit unless those descendants of the partakers of the fruit repented of their own individual alleged wickedness and re/turned to the Lord and the Father with full purpose of heart and forsook all of the evil done by their ancestors in any previous generation on the Earth and remained steadfast in their faith in Jesus Christ and the Father by being obedient to all of the Commandments to the best of their individual capabilities thereby re/gaining their inheritance in the Garden or even somewhere in Heaven.
I hope that makes sense. God bless you and yours and take care.
27:42 I would expand on Greg’s response to this question with elaborating on the basic fundamental principle of fulfilling the measure of our creation. We believe that Jesus Christ has a resurrected perfected body, and just like we were all meant to have a perfected resurrected body as well after the 2nd coming of the Savior/the resurrection. To us it makes sense that when we are brought back into the presence of the Father in our perfected resurrected bodies, that He would also have a perfected resurrected body (since we were created in His likeness). That’s important to our theology because part of why Adam and Eve had to fall is that so that we all could come into the world, receive bodies and exercise faith and agency to choose to follow His plan and the Savior (which are one, as Jesus prayed for us to be one as they are one). That is why it had to be this way.
Brilliant!!! I learned *so* much about the protestant faith by listening to this. So good to get out of the echo-chambers. I can't wait to hear the conversation on works vs grace. Thank you both so much. I feel Christ's hand all over these discussions.
Appreciate that.
I do too! I feel that Pastor Jeff was inspired to do this for a reason even he didn't see, but now feels a higher purpose coming out of this desire to understand! Curiosity not criticism! I love it!
It's interesting as an Aussie I have friends of many Christian faiths and our chats have always helped me understand my beliefs and knowledge more, as well as ex0lain it to others
Pastor Jeff referenced Romans 5. Romans 5 confirms the point Greg made. Verse 14 specifically states (KJV):
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Wonderful conversation! With your next podcast continuing the conversation about the garden could you ask how he would view Christ had Adam and Eve never transgressed. Would Christ still be God? Would there be a need for Christ as God, ie, the need for the Trinity in his view? Goes to the concept of what you all talked about a plan A and a plan B. Thanks as these interfaith talks are really beneficial for everyone. They bring people closer to Christ by bringing all of us closer to one another.
I was very shocked to learned how so many of my non LDS friends did not believe in pre-portal life. Yet so many of my NEW AGE friends did.
The more I listen to pastor Jeff the more I realize how blessed we are to have the Gospel restored. He said that in Romans 5:12, Adam sinned, yes that is true. But one problem, we dont believe in sola scriptura, by that same logic, what then can be said about 1 corinthians 14:34 which states:
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.”
Or 1 peter 2:18 which gave for centuries, because of sola scriptura, justification to slave owners to keep slaves.
Romans 5:12, in regards to what Joseph F. Smith said about Adam and Eve committing a transgression and not sin, is more of a nuance way of looking at the fall, perhaps a more clear understanding of what really happened in the garden, thus keeping true to the purpose of a prophet seer and revelator as outlined in Ephesians 4:11-15
Sola scriptura also goes against the gospel of Jesus Christ because it does not leave room for repentance because you can't change anything. I wish I knew more about this doctrine while I was on my mission.
Jeff, When I’ve asked Protestants why God created us, they’ve answered so that He could have beings to praise & worship Him… & for no other reason. My 1st thought was “that’s an ego-centric narcissistic being that is contrary to His all-loving nature.” As parents, we don’t have & raise children w/ the plan & purpose for them to praise & worship us … we’d all agree that isn’t real love. The plan of salvation isn’t all abt us, as you perceived, it’s all abt God’s love for us & His desire for us to learn & grow & return to Him & have a fullness of joy. He also has joy in our returning to Him. He is the perfect example of perfect love & I don’t see how that’s manifest in NEEDING creatures to praise & worship Him. (Maybe you can explain this?) We will always praise & worship Him b/c of His love & loving plan for us, not b/c He needs us to or created us for that purpose.
You explain things better than other evangelicals I’ve heard. How do you reconcile His purpose in creating us, if it’s only to praise Him, w/ Him being all loving? Love isn’t ego-centric, it’s viewing others by how we affect them instead of by how they affect us or meet our needs.
Also, if He created everything, why did He create evil? Or is your belief similar t ours that He created creatures w/ agency (as you mentioned) &, example, Satan chose evil … so God really didn’t create evil? I would like to understand this better.
I’ve only known 1 other Protestant who mentioned a belief in agency /“free will.” Most others were “saved by grace” and continued in sin w/ no desire or need to change. Or many Christian movies portray a deterministic view of God, even in their life situations, that come abt by choice, like “Why did He make us divorce; why was that His plan?” And they rarely have answers for why someone dies or why bad things happen other than “it’s His will,” w/ no understanding of a specific plan. And then they struggle w/ being angry at God. Can you please help me understand these views & /or are they the same as yours?
Thanks Jeff! We both agree God is all knowing and though it’s a mystery why God would allow that to happen….Adam and Eve were also chosen by God to begin all mankind ..you would think if there was any space of time to enjoy paradise in Eden with multiple generations that another couple could have been selected to at least get through a little more time to enjoy in Eden for more than 2 people. I think that’s why LDS views honor Adam and especially Eve as our first parents to get right to the path for a savior and introduce the fall and now the atonement and purpose of Jesus Christ as His only begotten
The question of why from Paster Jeff, I see it as it had to be that way so that we would have our true free agency. Had we still feel the love and be in Heavenly Father’s presence then we would choose different that not feeling his love. I agree with Greg that we would not need grow faith because true knowledge would be in each of us.
@28:30- I have had it explained (which means some level of opinion) that we had to go to the garden because it would have been unjust of God to cast us out of his presence. It has to be a choice. So we go from heaven to a terrestrial world where Gods presence can remain to some degree. Then under that level of relationship a choice could be made to exit gods presence and fall. So it is a space where man would be free to choose to remain in his presence or not and if not, then progress like him. In some sense the garden of Eden is the corollary to the spirit paradise or where spirits go after death - A space to come to God while not quite there yet.
As for the last question on focusing on us. Such a Good response. No it isn’t about us. It is about our relationship with God. All our “works” like baptism and the temple are all covenants that help us understand our relationship with God. That help us commit to God. That help us understand our place in God’s plan. These works are less about works and much more about purpose and knitting our hearts to God and hence allowing him into our lives. Everything in the temple is a symbol of Christ and what he did for us. And we go there to learn about him and connect with him through Covenant.
Grateful for this...I also hope that conversations like this can continue in a non- confrontational way...an environment of learning on both sides are essential.
Well said!
I am so grateful for living prophets and continuing revelation, that answers so many of these questions that cause people to stumble in their knowledge. What a blessed people we are!
I can’t go thru 300 plus comments to see if anyone said something about the lady the presidency commissioned to study Eve. The word “beguiled” was translated from a word meaning to deeply ponder and think about something. This is so important!!!! 😊
I understand where you are coming from. But, she was beguiled. She had to be. There had to be a fall and a separation from God through disobedience. This is corroborated by the Old Testament, New Testament, and the Book of Mormon. This is the whole point of Satan's lie in the dialogue. She had righteous desires but was beguiled. She is still a hero.
@@CwicShow She knew what had to happen in order to keep the second commandment, she was not tricked, it would not be agency if Satan tricked her; so no she wasn’t beguiled in the way the world would have you believe. She saw the bigger picture and knew it was going against a commandment but good to the taste.
Then you are going against scripture. With your assumption, there was zero need for Satan in the Garden
Also, Eve herself says she was beguiled,
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED ME, and I did eat. -- Genesis 3:13
God then curses Satan for beguiling Eve,
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: - Genesis 3:14
Here is more-
3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did BEGUILE our first parents, WHICH WAS THE CAUSE OF THEIR FALL - Mosiah 16:3
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3
and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light - 2 Nephi 9:9
for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents - Ether 8:25
I think the 'Lady" you are talking about is Beverly Campbell who wrote a book on Eve. I knew Beverly and talked to her about this. She was wrong! Both the underlying Hebrew in Genesis for "beguile" (nasha) and the underlying Greek in 2 Corinthians (exapatao) means exactly beguile/deceive. And the same words are used numerous times all with the context of beguile/deceive.
@@katherineshiver9428 Yes, I know.
Can you offer more clarity on your response to Pastor Jeff's comment that the Latter Day Saint Gospel is "all about us" (as opposed to all about God)? As a devout Catholic, raised Protestant, who has spent decades diving into theology including that of the Latter Day Saint church, I find myself inclined to agree with Pastor Jeff on this, and I found myself saying "Yes!" outloud when Pastor Jeff was bold enough to make the claim about the different gospels. I was eager for your reply and then unconvinced by your response that seemed to evade the issue by claiming it's about being servant-hearted.
From what I can tell, the [LDS] plan of exaltation and the covenants/ordinances required are for the self and the personal journey of the self to a divine end of "me, my spouse, my kids, forever". How are these acts of worship to God when they are focused on the self? Yes, God commands us to obey Him, and I could see that one could make the claim that God has commanded these things, so worship is obedience (fair).
However, I would counter that worship is recognition of our creaturely-unworthiness before the infinite majesty of God and our humility before Him, pleading for His mercy and love which sustain us as we travel this pilgrim road by His grace into the Glory of His majesty who will be forever our All in All (where, of great note, we will Know and be fully Known, perfectly united in Love With/In God along with all those we love who have accepted God's mercy & grace in their pilgrim journey: family, friends, etc.)
Sorry for the long comment/question. It really is a key point and I think it needs more than what was offered in the video. Thanks! I really appreciate it!
Our theology could briefly be described as follows, "For us, it is all about God, for God, it is all about us." One of the big differences with Latter-day Saint theology is our doctrine of theosis. We believe our entire purpose is to experience opposition so that we have the chance to grow through our moral agency and to overcome the world. That is why the Garden of Eden is viewed so differently by us. While we believe that we can become more like God and that this is our purpose, we believe that this is God's plan. But we cannot do so without being like Him, worshipping Him, and giving all the glory to Him as well as serving those around us. Humility, condescension, meekness are all a part of becoming like Him. For us, it is all about keeping an eye single to the Glory of God and having the humility to bend our will to His. I hope that helps.
I just explained some of this in the following response to someone else:
Virtually all are "saved" into some glory or kingdom. Second, our obedience and works are necessary for growth to a higher kingdom, especially Exaltation. But it's still hard to say that we "earn" it. It would never be possible without the love, grace, and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation from the Father. So we are alwas drinking from an eternal well of grace. But we must choose to drink. As King Benjamin says,
"I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another-I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." - Mosiah 2:21 (Book of Mormon)
I just have to say to you both, Thank you for this wonderful example of sharing and listening to each other and respecting each other's beliefs! In this world of contrary opinions that matter in each's realm only in agreement, this is so instructive and inspiring!!
I recently had the idea presented to me, that God would have eventually given the fruit to Adam and Eve when they were ready. Satan gave the fruit to them before they were ready and God cursed him for it. It clarified so much confusion to me about the two conflicting commandments.
Why? It is in order to progress to becoming like God, our ultimate goal.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Man is proud and haughty. So if we fall and have to works hard for our living. And when we know that God is with us to help us get through these hard times it humbles us and we then know that we can make it through this with Jesus help. We are not powerful enough todo all of these trials by ourselves.
But it is about us, isn’t it?
God said in “Moses 1: 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”
Everything belongs to God, we are his children, everything he does is for the eternal progression of his children.
God has already reached perfection, he is God.
In God’s perfection he desires his children to be like him, so much so that he sent his only begotten son to die for us, “John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
We are Gods work and his glory!
Thank you so much for disagreeing, but not being disagreeable :-) please keep creating the podcast and hopefully everyone will feel that we agree more than we disagreed, and we are all working towards fulfilling. God‘s will for us. Love by neighbor!!
This is the idea. Thanks!
Eh Greg, great job! There’s so much to talk about when it comes to the Garden and understanding this crucial part of the Plan and God’s teachings.
One thing that was not 100% brought up and made clear is, how do you experience happiness and joy without opposition?
In order to experience joy we had to fall. We had to have opposition. If our eyes weren’t “opened” we would not truly know joy. The idea of not partaking of the fruit and being able to be in His presence and being able to fulfill our full potential to receive all that He has and to become like Him could not happen and is not possible. If our eyes are not open we could not see what God can see and we truly didn’t have “agency”. We could not understand God and who we are without being cast out and relying on faith in Christ to be instructed by the Spirit and be redeemed. If our eyes are not open we are in a child like state with a limited understanding. That is why when Eve partook of the fruit the “sin” of disobedience wasn’t fully realized until after, after her eyes were opened. Kind of like a child when they “sin”. When you don’t understand you’re rebelling against God does it truly have the same consequence, judgement and condemnation? That I believe is why we look at it as a “transgression” versus a true sin of disobedience and outright willingness to walk away from God. They didn’t even fully understand who Satan was either. It was essential to have our eyes open to progress to rely on the Father and His Son. There would be know reliance of our Father without it.
That said, if God knew Adam and Eve would fall, then it was part of the plan. Yes, disobedience is never per se “good” but ultimately to grow and progress and to rely on Him it was essential and in the end it fulfills our creation and leads to our highest potential. 🤙🏻
You’re doing awesome things Greg!
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to both sides of this discussion, from the Evangelical and LDS point of view. I loved how both sides were respected, that there was no name calling or claiming that one side was more right than the other, allowing an interesting discussion to take place. In the end I felt that this discussion solidified my testimony and gave me great hope for all of God's children to come together in love and respect for each other.
Thank you Greg. You did a wonderful job of explaining the true LDS view of the Fall, and you didn't dodge questions or mock biblical Christianity.
Appreciate it.
Great discussion, LDS people believe we are spiritual beings here to have a mortal experience not the other way around. Good to better understand each other.
57:17 yes, Jeff, this is why these conversations are important. We both-as an extended ‘family’ of LDS and Evangelicals- we want to serve the creator who made us.
Both of you rock…! Your conversations are riveting and I enjoy how each of you share powerful thoughts, lovingly as good friends, that add light to everyone who listens with a sincere heart.
The topic is Ground Zero and both share so much light from your perspectives.
Love these conversations.
Really glad you enjoy it.
Maybe some day a discussion about common ground rather than differences???
What a wonderful world this would be if more conversations would happen as civil as this!! I love each of you so much and can feel of your love for Christ our Savior! Thank you!❤
Massive fan of this type of interfaith dialogue. Massive fan of this channel AND Hello Saints. Keep it up! This is me cheering from the stands! This is how respect and civility and humanity grows!
In order to accept the LDS doctrine of the fall, you'd have to accept the plan of Salvation.
@Jeff McCullough and @Greg Matsen .... YOU both need to do another sit down on this subject. There was WAY more to touch on than this. I am filled with gratitude to our precious Heavenly Father for having you both here and covering the differences in perspective of the Garden of Eden. I went through so many churches before I arrived at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All of my answers were found here. We have a choice to feel and accept the Holy Ghost talking to our hearts and minds, filling us with more questions, then answers as we study along. SO many messages from the Old to the New Testament alone come back to the Garden of Eden.
I have to admit this is the first time I have ever heard an Evangelical profess a belief that God had a council of beings that included Lucifer.
I am genuinely interested in hearing more about this and where it came from. Where can I read more about it?
Im thankful for the simplicity of the restored gospel. I appreciate the understanding Jeff also brings and his insights. I look forward to more of these discussions.
Greg, you did a fantastic job answering Pastor Jeff's concern that the LDS faith seems to place more importance on "us" rather than on God. One more point we can stand on concerning this subject is in D&C 76:86-87, which tells us that those in the celestial kingdom will minister to the inhabitants of the terrestrial kingdom. It is the reason we do so many "works" here on Earth. It is not to earn our way into Heaven, but because we are trying to emulate our Savior, be conformed to Him, so that we can learn how to better serve others here and when we get to heaven!
Appreciate that. And I like the scripture reference!
The "Why" is embedded in our understanding of the nature of God and our relationship to Him. In orthodox Christianity we are his choicest "creations" where as in LDS theology we are His literal children.
Yes, Pastor Jeff. The Zoramites were Calvinists.... lol😂😂😂😂 .
It’s very clear how much more light and understanding we LDS have with regards to the fundamental answers of why we are here, where we are going, and who we are in relation to HF. On the mainstream Christian side, the “why?”questions always end up in “it’s a mystery” answers and the narrative is arbitrary and has no real purpose other than “God wanted it for his glory”. It’s such a sad way of understanding our existence and purpose, I can see why people turn to atheism if they really think things through their logical conclusion. LDS theology eliminates all those “whys?” and provides a satisfying answer to the fundamental questions.
More light, less mystery
@@mahonri69 amen 🙏
Best way I can put it is God’s plan for His children is precisely how we view the path to success in mortal life. No success comes without some failure along the way. Success requires moments of failure to learn and progress towards success. Therefore the doctrinal claim is not that “God set humanity up to fail…”, it is that “God set humanity up to fail sometimes SO THAT they could succeed.” Without being set up to be able to fail, the success God desired for His children was also not possible. God actually set us up to succeed… by being able to fail along the way.
I will also say it’s never all about just us but it’s also never about just God either. An LDS doctrine is that exaltation is a family affair. It is a team effort. We cannot be exalted without God & He cannot receive continuous glory without us. Creating and exalting his children is his joy and glory unto himself. Glorifying God now allows Him to share His glory with us later until we become like He is.
It is not sinful to desire this glory. The sin arises from attempts to glorify ourselves directly rather than trusting God to glorify us in the end if we are judged righteous.
There are many denominations that misunderstand what heavenly reward awaits us beyond judgement. Most think Heaven is just white sandy beaches where we kick back & relax forever, never again to be bothered to do anything with the all-important agency God gave us. That’s a very sad, useless, boring idea of Heaven. Heaven is more than that. It is there that God’s most righteous children continue in their progression, are active & engaged in godly endeavors. There is more to Heaven than it simply being a 100-star resort for angelic retirees. God’s works are infinite and have no end. He intends to bring us aboard to share in the glory of His works, as a Father might bring on His son to join the family business.
Just wanted to thank you both for the respectful manner in which the conversation progresses. I personally don’t agree with all of the doctrinal points made concerning the Fall shared in this episode, but I do appreciate the openness and candid conversation. Thank you both for your efforts to bring people to Christ.
A lot of doctrinal issues and disagreements we have with other faiths stems from the fact that we hold that 1. We believe in a pre -mortal life. 2. We believe in several records of scripture. 3. We believe in a modern day prophet and continuing revelation. In my opinion because of these great truths it is hard to defend that truth. When discussing the matters of the Garden and Adam and Eve for instance... If you have no belief in any of the above mentioned matters it can be very hard to find common ground. To me when you include the pre mortal life ...modern day Scripture and modern day revelation the story of the Adam and Eve makes way more sense and understanding than with just the Old testament record. IMHO...I do appreciate the Pastor wanting to have an open discussion though. Very rare these days...
Thanks for doing this you two.... at times I get frustrated during the conversation so thank you for having cooler heads.
Our pleasure!
Not about us, but the requirement that we work out our own salvation, personal redemption rather than a group redemption. The way is that having fully realized our own agency we turn to God and submit our will to his.
The Why of why was separation from God necessary, I think, is apparent most keenly to parents. This mortal world is a similitude after the order of Heaven to learn what our Heavenly Parents already know and understand. Parents find purpose, fulfillment and especially joy in helping their children grow, learn, develop into adults like unto themselves. By lifting up our children, helping them to rise above the place at which they begin, also adds to our experience and joy. Heavenly Father’s perfection is unquestionable, but He finds joy, fulfillment, and purpose in helping us, His children in growth and development through our mortal journey from which He can then, if we be obedient, lift us to a higher state where we can experience the kind of eternal life that our Heavenly Parents now currently enjoy. What parent doesn’t want to see their child grow beyond where they began and know the joys in life that they themselves experience? Why would Heavenly Father create us, see us fall away, help us navigate and learn through the bitter and sweet, the understanding of good and evil, just to return us back to the manufacturer’s settings, if you will. It’d be like us raising our children to become good husbands, wives, contributors to society, learning to develop as individuals of righteousness, to then turn to them one day and say, ok, now I am going to take all that away and restore you an innocent child again so we can return to that original relationship we had. I struggle with that concept.
Totally agree that Christ was needed because of Eden. i think one thing that helps answer the "why did we need to 'fall"' question includes that we were first created spiritually in the Garden and the Fall brought upon us our human, mortal condition - without which we could never have had children in this world and could never have experienced the needed separation in order to learn and grow in the precise way needed to exercise our faith. If Adam and Even had stayed in the Garden, they could not have had children, and the could not have experienced separation from God, never had agency, opposition in all things, and the need to live by faith, making choices between good and evil (which are our greatest teachers). All these things are needed to become like God. All these things God Himself experiences, and so we need to experience them too. This IS the way that God, through our choices and through the Atonement can reconciled us to Himself. This life is our "schooling". Without the Fall, there would be no schooling. it would have been ONLY Adam and Eve forever in the Garden, and no one else.
Amen
@CWIC Media
At about 43:38, it sounded like Jeff said "midrash". Did I hear that correctly or what was it he might have actually said there? I ask because it was not clear to me exactly what he said there. If "midrash" is what he said, what does that mean? Thanks.
The Midrash is a Jewish commentary or interpretation of scripture.
@@CwicShow
Ok, got it. Thanks.
Here are some key points in my words:
1st: The plan for us to learn the difference between good and evil, and have the opportunity to consistently choose good over evil, was THE PLAN from the beginning. Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden and warned of the consequences that would follow them eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was key for them to use their free agency to make this choice, as God would not force us into a fallen state. We had to choose that path knowing the consequences.
2nd: Without a knowledge of good and evil, sin is impossible. That’s why we use the word “Transgressed”. The Bible may use the word sin now and then, but it was also translated by non prophets who aren’t thinking about theology like this. So to say that Adam and Eve sinned, is to say they knew the difference between good and evil, which they wouldn’t have known without eating of the fruit. However our purpose on earth is to learn and develop Christlike attributes by constantly choosing right over wrong. This can’t be accomplished without their being both options, and without us being able to discern between them. For that purpose, options were given to us from the beginning, and Adam and Eve were wise and brave enough to make that step for mankind, knowing that it would separate them from God’s presence and open the door to possibly not being able to return ever. Few of use would probably be able to make the same choice of giving up a perfect life of ease and happiness for the greater good of mankind. There is nothing more selfless or beautiful then the fact that they gave up a life of ease and eternal bliss for us to come down and begin the process of spiritual growth and progression. What Adam and Eve did was essential, beautiful, and crucial to the plan that was created before this world was.
I’d say that this is how we Latter Day Saints see this.
Thanks for that . That was really beautiful .
I agree with your thoughts but I have an additional thought. While Adam and Eve were in the garden, they didn't experience joy because there was no opposite of sadness. They didn't experience bliss because they didn't know anything else. They didn't appreciate being IN the garden until they experienced being OUT of the garden. So, while they were brave to make the choice they did, they didn't know what they would experience.
I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. I believe they did know the difference between right and wrong. God told them it was wrong to eat from the tree. Satan tempted them, they fell and ate the fruit. They sinned and they knew it immediately. That is why they hid from God when He came looking for them. There was nothing noble about what they did. They wanted to be like God, they ate the fruit, they were removed from the garden.
Exactly. And then Pastor Jeff says that evangelicals don’t see Jesus as a plan when at the same time he says that Eve messed up and kept us from fulfilling our purpose, which according to them was to never leave the garden of Eden, never learn good and evil and never be able to fully make informed decisions. So is that was the plan from the beginning why there is a need of a Savior, faith in him following his example. What part does the atonement of Jesus Chris takes place in their understanding of the plan and why their plan is so contradictory? Why a savior if there would be no need to progress?
@@anacleiawalker it is because they do not understand the way the garden is written . Without knowing symbolism and it being the first chapter it confuses them .
So, Pastor Jeff, what would our lives be like if Eve had never partaken of the fruit? How would you reconcile His Kingdoms current state?
It's all very simple in my mind. God, our Father, wants us, his children, to have the opportunity to learn and grow, to love him, and become one with him. He has a plan for us, Jesus Christ is central to our becoming one, and we all agree with each other that faith in Christ is our primary requirement. All the differences we have are appendages to that foundation. Whatever we lack, if we have Christ as our foundation, then the rest will be supplied here, or in eternity.
Millennium you are right these guys are preaching without any kind of contention with others but just explain the true explanation most churches don't know keep it up you guys I love this kind of podcast
God is omnipotent. If He wants us to be like him, He can do it. If He loves us, why wouldn't He want us to be like Him, who is perfect? If we love him, why wouldn't we want to be like Him?
Because of the fall we love Him more and He loves us more than if it never happened. "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." - Luke 15:7
Its all goes back to our Pre Existence. There was a " Fall" a " cutting " there first.. an Older Brother rebeled there, so sin was there , God cleansed Heaven by kicking Satan out with all his buddies then " kicked " "US" out and allowed an opportunity for us to return and also equally important where in His " House" we will be comfortable to reside
Here is an interesting thought: How does our ability to progress in the Garden of Eden compare with our ability to progress during the Millennium?
Great question.
54:03 I think the reason Jeff is seeing that it is “all about us” is because we as humans struggle to get rid of our narcissism tendencies. Some see that religion is about them and that’s often why they fall away. The pressure is too great. But when people get past that by the humbling God puts us through to teach us, we come out better and His is the glory for it.