Grace And Works - Latter-day Saint and Evangelical Pastor - Jeff McCullough
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- Cwic Media Website: www.cwicmedia.com
Connect w/ Cwic Media & Greg - linktr.ee/Cwic...
Cardio Miracle, Learn More! - cwic.qwkchecko...
"We have these conversations BECAUSE we are different."
What is Salvation?
Reaction to Book of Mormon Verses
How might Protestants see the temple as "Works?"
Once "Saved", can someone lose Salvation?
Latter-day Saints have different meanings of Salvation
What role do "covenants" play in Salvation?
What role works play in judgment?
What about the parables of Jesus? How do works play a role in His teachings?
********************
➡️ Cwic Show relates real-world, current events for faith-based commentary and conversations. We address topics such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, politics, pop culture, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and gospel principles in a faith-based manner. We support the Restored Church of Jesus Christ and fight the disinformation that is so pervasive online.
Home of the Cwic Show, Cwic Media Come Follow Me Series, and the Cwic Interpreters that help you see the scriptures in a new light.
Cwic Media - like "Quick Media" Cwic is an Old English word that means "Intelligent" and "Alive."
********************
Disclaimer
The products and content offered by Cwic Media are neither made, provided, approved nor endorsed by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
All content and products are solely those of Cwic Media and not those of Intellectual Reserve, Inc. or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
********************
#CwicShow #lds
I just can’t say enough about Jeff’s openness and sincerity. To have this type of dialogue is both rare and refreshing. He is a good friend and has a great love for Jesus Christ.
Remember Adam and Eve did not SIN in Eden. No sin was committed by them. They were given two choices because agency or choice has always been fundamental. So how do they fulfill "multiply and replenish" unless they partake of the fruit and are cast out becoming mortal thus capable of having offspring. Doctrine of "original sin" has no scriptural basis. "Original sin" gives rise to baptizing infants. Infants and young children are not capable of sin due to their innocence. Mormon 8 states very clearly infants are not capable of sin and are saved in Christ immediately upon their death. Baptizing children is an abomination.
I agree that he appears to be a friendly, good looking very articulate pastor. But he is no friend to latter-day Saints. Like all evangelicals, he is preaching through his channel. He is not building faith and testimony for latter-day Saints. He is sowing seeds of doubt.
@@richardelms640 He really is not in my opinion. He is bridge building and seeking understanding (both ways). The work he is doing is incredible. I absolutely see him as a friend a fellow Christian. I really do feel he sees so many of us this same way.
Faith needs to be allowed to be challenged, unless it really isn’t faith. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is so unbelievably powerful, many will come from all walks of life and seek to join it in the coming years.
Remember, Elder Anderson prophesied in a recent general conference (Oct 2021): “we will be a shining light on the hill as the somber shades of disbelief in Jesus Christ darken the world… Christians who are not among our membership will welcome our role and our sure witness of Christ. Even those Christians who have viewed us with skepticism will embrace us as friends. In these coming days, we will be called by the name of Jesus Christ.”
@@chrishumphries7489Wow, that is really cool! Thanks for this comment.
@@richardelms640 He's not supposed to be building faith. This is an interfaith endeavor. I don't understand how members don't understand this. I believe it is because very few members have ever done any interfaith work. It's not the same thing. He is building bridges, not converting. He's going to stick to his doctrine and his beliefs. But we are going to build relationships, communication, and bridges. This is very rare between Latter-day Saints and evangelicals.You don't have to. That's up to you. But think of the Samaritan Woman At The Well.
I’m SO grateful for all the clarity that the restored Church of Jesus Christ brings. 🙏🙏🙏
Exactly my thoughts.
The Book of Mormon definitely does clear up confusion.
Please, explain to me why just the Bible is not enough for lds members? Why do you have to add the BOM and the other books? Witch Bible passages are “good” and witch ones are “bad”? Who decides?
@@AnaHarold-v1o The BoM decides, or clarifies, which ones are “good” and which ones are “bad”. Try reading it and find out for yourself.
@user-vk5lr9xl2t I wouldn't say the Bible is 'bad.' Just unclear at times because of odd translations. People read it for 50 years and still never understand many scriptures. You shouldn't need to go to seminary and become a theologian to grasp its contents. The Book of Mormon is far more clear and uses plain language.
When I was 18 I rode a bus from Utah to Oregon, I sat by a seminary student preparing to be a minister. He asked my religion and then he aggressively launched a discussion on wicked Mormon works verses grace.
The discussion spread and went on for well over an hour. The bus driver was laughing and said he never had a whole busload having a talk. Everyone agreed with the minister-in-training.
Then an eight-year-old, adorable little black girl spoke up loudly and firmly.
She said she agreed with me and she proceeded to simply lay out the perfect blending of grace and works. A furious discussion ensued with me doing little at that point. That girl had been carefully listening. I left it to the sweet girl and others she helped persuade. It ended with everyone, even the bus driver, disagreeing with the furious seminary student.
On our next stop we all (except one) had a hilarious snow ball fight.
Thank you for sharing. That is so amazing. Definitely a testimony of truthfulness and freedom that comes from God‘s doctrine.
Sounds amazing
Out of the mouth of babes. And a little child shall lead them.
@@marthadullaghan4616
That tiny little thing stood up from her seat like an adorable warrior, fierce but polite. I want to give her a hug in the next life.
How cool is that?!
As I serve others (works) my faith in Christ grows stronger. Works is absolutely necessary for my growth towards becoming like Christ.
Like sins of commission versus sins of omission. It’s not just good enough to avoid sin, but we should do something about it and help others come unto Christ. I really think that it is just semantics between Latter-day Saints and mainstream Christianity.
@@braydenweese1407I feel the same. Hearing this explanation from Pastor Jeff, there was no point at which I was able to firmly say "ah, that's the difference". He was saying tomato with an "ay" and we say it with an "ah", but it's the same exact WORD.
It seems the main difference when it comes to grace is Evangelicals believe exaltation is a location (God's presence) where Latter-day Saints believe exaltation is a state of being (like God). Hence grace to them was finished on the cross and our works amount to essentially a pat on the back by Christ at the mini-judgement, where grace to Latter-day Saints includes Christ's atonement as well has his commandments, his ordinances, the Holy Ghost, our daily experiences - including all the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them...." "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (eph 2:10 and 4:13)
@marthadullaghan4616 - I get where you are coming from. I think for non-LDS Christians we have a slightly different nuance to what you shared (if you don’t mind me sharing). For us, it is seeing God work in our lives and the lives of those around us that strengthens our faith. We are to be obedient, yes, but by being obedient we are allowing God to do the work. For example, I join with some Christian brothers & sisters to share the gospel at the mall on Saturday nights. What strengthens my faith is not anything I did during that time, but witnessing God working providentially in people’s hearts as they hear about Jesus and his gospel of salvation. So we might saying the same thing, but I just wanted to emphasize the focus is on what God has done and is doing today.
@@nate2187
Can you please post again the reference to the "Till we all come in the unity of the faith..." passage? It got partially cut off so it says "(eph 2:10 and 4:13)." Thanks.
God bless you and yours and take care.
"We choose every day where we want to live eternally, by how we think, feel, speak, and act." Russel M. Nelson.
This is the way differences should be addressed. Beautiful job, guys.
Much appreciated!
I am so grateful to have the restored gospel. God is limitless and doesn't limit the spiritual progression of his children. The RESTORATION expands our understanding. ❤
Hi Jeff. I just want to explain a key difference in how we use the term worthiness so that we don't talk past each other due to language differences.
Worthiness is not merit. There is a difference between the two in LDS jargon.
You cannot merit exaltation, but you can be worthy of it. There are no terms of merit given to us, but there are terms of worthiness set by God. Merit is when you did something on your own or when your own works were sufficient. Worthiness is when you got help that you couldn't do without aka grace and you took full advantage of that gift or made the best of it.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ opened the door to the fulness of God, but we still need to use our agency to enter that door and walk the covenant path and because our walks are different, this warrants different types of inheritance or degrees of glory.
Jeff says, "We are meant to be in God's presence!" Right, home is the presence of God, we are not from here, and Earth is not our home. However, the plan of happiness required that we be sent off to school and be tested, stretched in a mortal probationary period!
Then, as Elder Maxwell taught, "We couldn't stay! There had to be an escape! We have to die and leave this second state behind! We may only fully recognize what a blessing it is to learn from experience after this life!
CS Lewis - Paraphrasing "grace and works" That would be akin to arguing which blade of the scissors is more important!😊
Of course we are saved by grace, His suffering in Gethsemane and death on the cross required a perfect Savior. However, as Prof. Robinson taught, of course in a "covenant" relationship, as it were a tandem bicycle, we are expected to pedal!😊
Love C S Lewis.
Greg said it well... Lots of semantics going on here!😊
I’m so grateful for the knowledge of gospel to know that those who never hear about Jesus Christ will have that opportunity in the next life before the judgement day and that temple works will allow them that opportunity to be saved. It is black and white. God is merciful and provide everyone of his children to hear him
“ If you choose the course of discipleship you may move away from what may be a mere acknowledgment of Jesus into admiration of Jesus, then into adoration of Jesus and finally emulation of Jesus. In the process… we must be in the posture of repentance.” We need to do as He does…. And then grace and works are helping us to become new creatures in Christ!
I like this.
What a great insight of how to be converted to Christ.
We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet. It's so great to have modern revelations.
…we thank thee oh God for Jesus! It’s so great to have the Holy Bible! Who do you praise?
@@BGCflyer speaking about prophets Jesus said, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."
Isn't that in your Bible? Take a look..
-Matt 10:40
@@BGCflyer aren't you thankful for the prophets in the Bible? It's thanks the Prophets called by God that we have a Bible. Aren't you Grateful? Do you think the Jews killed Jesus? Why do you Think? Isn't because dey harden they hearts. They killed the prophets and they interpreted there scriptural like they wanted. Do you see the importance of a Living Prophet? Eph. 4:11
In the early Church, the Savior set the pattern for Church leadership: “He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
Where are modern Prophets en Apostels? It's in the Bible dear brother.
@@BGCflyer I agree. We thank thee oh God for Jesus. Where would we be without HIM. He is first and foremost the leader, healer, deliverer, and He is our Savior. Nobody else holds that sacred position in our hearts. However, our hearts our big enough to include our family and friends and even a modern-day Prophet.
@@45s262 ...not sure what point you're making. Yes Matt 10:40 is in my Bible. It's in everyones Bible I would think
Grace is not VS works. Grace includes faith, and real faith includes works. Works are the evidence of our faith. Salvation is obtaining the character of Christ. We are saved when we have overcome the flesh, which we can’t do without grace. This is a statement both Evangelicals and LDS Christians can agree on.
Well said.
"Salvation is obtaining the character of Christ", I think this is true for LDS, but I think Jeff would say Salvation is obtaining the presents of Christ, not His character. If I understand Jeff salvation is obtaining the presents of God or being with God, but LDS believe that salvation is not only being with God but being like God.
@@mavinswapp9663 “we see through a glass darkly” (1 corinthians 13:12) comes to mind as I read what you wrote. Paul himself encouraged the Saints to gain a Christlike Character. Because how can we truly know Christ save we suffer with Him? We can’t know Christ without those take up the cross moments.
Also, Did you mean having the presence or presents of Christ, btw? Because that would change some things here also. See if the presence of the Holy Ghost is Salvation, then that would be obtained by becoming a clean vessel in which God may dwell (God does not dwell in unholy temples, corinthians I forget the verse). If you mean presents of Christ 🎁 then the language used by LDS Christians would be “the gifts of the Spirit”. That would include the gift of tongues, faith, administration, healing, etc. Either way, can a person obtain the presents 🎁 or presence of Christ. Being with God is being like God.
@@zionmama150the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what saves someone, when they are born again. That happens when they put faith in Christ for salvation. When someone has the spirit, they are adopted heirs of God and are promised eternal life, not based on their works or merit, but based on Christ and his grace. The Holy Spirit is the security deposit of eternal life
@@maxstooksberry9458 so if a person says “I believe Jesus is the Christ”. That’s enough?
Greetings Greg And Jeff! As a former Evangelical myself I thank you for your discussion and content. Pastor Jeff is a swell guy and very articulate as you Greg.
Until Pastor Jeff and Evangelical Christians understand what the War in Heaven was all about with agency 1st and 2nd Estate qualifiers, they will not understand what “ Immortality and Eternal Life”!
One of the most critical elements of Christianity is being “ saved “! They almost get it right but even Peter said how difficult it is in understanding Paul. Pastor Jeff defaults to Paul’s Epistles over all of the harmonization of the scriptures and they conveniently leave out words like commandments.
In Matthew 28:
Jesus himself gives charge:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I don’t know about you but but teaching them to “observe” All Things , whatsoever he commanded. Wow surprise surprise. So what did the Lord Jesus Command? It’s beyond the law but first faith, repentance, baptism , gift of the Holy Ghost by the Laying on of Hands.
We not only believe what God has revealed and does reveal but we believe He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
It wasn’t 1 thing or even 2 things.
1 Corinthians 15:22 tells us this saved ( being resurrected) but Eternal Life is through Obeying God through Christ our Lord. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So glad my eyes were open to truth and not many different versions of the Bible depending on your belief bias.
I pray for Pastor Jeff but he starts creating his own version of the fall and the Plan of Salvation.
Visiting my Mom and Dad in Mississippi some years ago, I honored them by attending their Baptist Church with them.
The words that came out of that pastors mouth was not even the word of God. He said Adam and Eve are the evil ones and that we all could be living in the Garden of Eden and the presence of God but those guys were dummies. Pastor Jeff more eloquently said the same exact thing.
Pastor Jeff and Evangelicals do not understand the Plan of Salvation. Not from the Garden but from the War in Heaven and why a Savior was so key to the Plan. Yes Jehovah, even Jesus Christ, Yahweh , was offered from the beginning. And that’s the beauty of the
Atonement!
And I confess as a lifelong Latter-day Saint, a lot of evangelism is very ambiguous to me and I take comfort in the ‘guardrails’ or clear understanding I can get from the covenant path gospel, even though there is paradoxical teaching and lots of faith in unanswered questions for both sides
The word play is amazing to me. You have to work hard to justify not believing in works. “If ye love me keep my commandments”. “Be ye doers of the word”. “By your fruits ye shall know them”. “Feed my sheep” Almost every parable that Jesus shares is about being actively serving and living the gospel. The good Samaritan. The 10 virgins. I will never understand how works is so frowned upon. Works is the offspring of faith. You can’t have one without the other.
A problem I see in this discussion (and other discussions) about "works," is equating "obedience" with worthiness". Do we obey God because we seek a reward , or is it because we love Him, and desire to act more like Him, and do what He asks us to do.
Making a commitment to obey through making a covenant with Him is just a formal acknowledgement that this the desire of our hearts. It has a greater impact on our choices, when we remember those covenants. it also brings a greater act rebellion when we willfully don't keep our part of that two way agreement. To me, it is like spitting on the sacrifice Jesus made for us, because of His love for us.
Works isn’t frowned upon, works being what gets us back to God is what’s frowned upon. Because there’s no grace in that. There’s no Jesus in that. That’s depending on ourselves. That’s depending on our checklist of things to DO to get to God’s full presence. It’s not “do all you can do, and Christ makes up the difference. Christ does the rest.” No. Christ does it ALL. we do NOTHING but have faith & depend on God to get back to Him.
Love this!
EXACTELY what I was thinking!
Why did Christ teach and share the parables… if all He could have said is, believe in me and you are done.
@@HaleighMarkarbut there IS Jesus in that. “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”. The works we do when we depend on Christ ARE Christ working through us, teaching us, leading us, guiding us. But He can’t work through somebody without them choosing Him and using their agency to obey and follow in His footsteps.
He not only wants us to live with Him again, He wants to be LIKE Him. “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect.” Being saved is SO much more than just singing kumbaya eternally. It’s eternal progression through Christ. The choice to be led by Christ is the works.
@@Icanonlyimagn7891the mainstream Christian viewpoint does not believe in calling it quits on works when you receive grace; rather, that works are the fruit of someone saved by grace. We don't earn the salvation Jesus gave us by performing works, but we seek to express our salvation through works.
Makes me thankful for the restoration and latter day prophets to give knowledge that was lost. But I’m also grateful for collaboration with other Christian faiths because goodness is goodness
Salvation is one topic, exaltation is another. I think the difference and meaning of the two is worth some discussion.
I am grateful for Jeff-his ability to express his ideas clearly and with kindness. We, as Christians, will need to come together with love and understanding to combat the forces of evil raging all around us. Jeff is teaching me how to LISTEN and express understanding- he is a great example of someone who loves Jesus!
I think something that could be said is: There are different “glories” precisely because God loves us, His children. He knows that there are going to be MANY who do not have faith in Him, or who do and fall away and never come back or who, for whatever reason, never profess their faith in Him, and yet He wants them to come back and have a glory. So He has prepared different glories so that everyone can receive something. Yet, those people who don’t put in effort, will not be able to achieve the same glory where He lives. Some people don’t want that. Therefore, he’s got not just 1 glory but many glories. So… while none of us will ever be perfect in this life, and therefore we never “earn” His level of glory, if we are the ones who continue to try and try every day, the more effort some of His children put in to reach His glory, the more He wishes to bless them with a higher glory. Therefore the different degrees of glory. Those who don’t want, or don’t try, get the glory known as Telestial. Those who want and try but didn’t put their all in it, receive the Terrestrial glory. Those who desired it about above all and tried their entire lives and made covenants & kept them …. Receive the Celestial glory. We also believe that in the Celestial glory there IS eternal growth until we become exalted, just as He is. That is what He teaches: that we become even as he is.
I really like the comparison of the Temple Covenants needed, just as a marriage covenant is needed. That covenants make life different, better and separate from non-covenant living. Otherwise, why even have marriage, period? Why have covenants? Yet God has always had a covenant people. Even his disciples were made covenant people. (The Apocrypha talks about this as well as the Ancient Christian Fathers.) There is a difference between living together and entering into a marriage covenant. It makes the people different themselves. It anchors them. So the temple covenants, are not “works” but are covenants that anchor us in Christ, in a way that cannot be done without that temple covenant. They matter.
I appreciate these conversations that help the listener to better understand both sides of the principles and doctrines and culture. Thank you both for putting in the time and study to be able to do this and share it with the rest of us. Thank you!
You’re welcome! Thanks for the feedback
Thank you for the discussion! An art and a skill that I hope becomes pervasive in the world, or at least grows and catches fire to continue to grow.
One thought in terms of grace and works that came to me was Job. There is a different between trials (which can include the misuse of agency by another who affects our lives) and consequences of poor use of our agency or sin. I love what one of the General Authorities said, I think Holland, “the piper must be paid.” Through the Atonement, we can be made whole and clean again through a broken heart and contrite spirit, which takes effort, which I still would consider works and faith. In sinning we separate ourselves from God, and choose the natural man, which is an enemy to God. In being able to repent, while Christ did for us that which we can do for ourselves (overcome the two deaths), we still need to become new creatures, a change of heart, change our attitudes and views of the world, and overcome the natural man. There are natural consequences we have to struggle through to become new creatures and not return to sin like dogs to their vomit (or whatever that scripture refers to). Suffering the consequences of our choices, however, is different than trials not from our choices, like job, and yet we still have a choice in how we respond: either to let the trial refine and purify and sanctify us, strengthening our faith and relationship with God, and in that becoming more like Him by developing qualities such as long suffering, patient, forgiving, striving for charity, and cementing obedience no matter what; or let the natural man win and become angry and bitter and cursing God. Both situations are hard, both require faith and work; and the covenants we make in the temple and are worthy (yes we can be unworthy based on our heart and choices, as opposed to divine nature being our potential to become like God because we are his literal spirit children), through Christ, we are endowed with power in order to keep progressing beyond the natural man. All these things shall be for our experience, if we so choose by coming unto Christ and accessing his atoning sacrifice. Even the innocent who suffer at the hands or choices of others, disease, disappointment, depression, all
Manner of infirmities and sickness, can be made whole through the Atonement. I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me!
I LOVE the simplicity of the LDS faith. Everything makes sense with the Book of Mormon and Bible together. It’s confusing to hear our Christian friends say things are mysteries, and drawing dots connecting scripture that says one thing but means something else. Glad we can agree on Christ as our basis for our beliefs.
The beauty of mysteries is that they are truths not yet understood, and each of us still have mysteries that we don’t fully understand. Many of those “mysteries” have been clarified by Joseph Smith and his first vision.
Bringing up the parables and phrasing them as ‘dire’ was very clear point Greg. Great convo 👍
I agree, there was no come back to that statement.👍
Pastor Jeff - Regarding the temple and sacred covenants we MAKE/DO in His holy houses, welcome to the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, where ALL things will be gathered in! Welcome to the ending up scenes prior to the Lord’s second coming!
By the way, can any Christian really wait for the Lord's second coming without first waiting for Elijah to return with the sealing power!? See Malachi 4...
Again, welcome to this last and final dispensation! What a blessing and what a responsibility the Lord has placed on us through temples!
Do LDS believe you can still have a committed relationship to God without temples?
@andreinaquiroz9208 I would say, yes to that question! However, the Lord has blessed us with temples around the world and the ordinances performed in the temple are essential if we choose to live with God and his son, Jesus Christ in the Celestial Kingdom!
Take those steps, prepare for those ordinances and you will be blessed beyond measure!
So refreshing to see two knowledgeable, articulate and kind people have a civil conversation. Thank you to you both!
Choosing to put our faith in God is a work.
came here to the comments to say something similar to this
This is a point I make on the subject. Prayer, scripture study, baptism, being "born again", church attendance, etc, are all works. Without these things, you are not seeking salvation. When Christ says "come unto me" he is not trying to trick us into undermining the atonement. He clearly expects something from us. And if we ignore Him, assuming that we're already saved, we show that we have no faith.
I would humbly beg to differ with the argument that faith is a work. If you look at the Ephesians 2:8-9 verse Jeff shared, it says the we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. So, the Bible makes a distinction between faith and works. If you think about it, it makes sense - if grace is a free gift, then faith is simply the act of receiving that gift. If someone gives you a present, and you thank them and receive it from them, there were no works you had to do to get that present.
Here’s another analogy. A worker doesn’t show up for work all week. At the end of the week, he shows up for work and immediately gets called into the bosses’ office. The boss hands the worker an envelope. The worker hesitantly opens the envelope thinking it might be his termination notice. Instead he is surprised to see his paycheck for the week. The worker can’t help but ask, ‘why are you paying me? I didn’t do any work?’, and the boss replies, ‘yes, you did do work by opening the envelope!’ This wouldn’t make any sense, in the same way it wouldn’t make sense to call the receiving of God’s free gift a work.
Hello
How does Jeff know about correct principles when he studies out of two different translations of the Bible?
Eh Greg and Jeff, I enjoyed this. Although I grew up in the LDS faith, I grew up outside of Utah amongst many that are not of the LDS faith, so I believe I have a fairly unique perspective. I also served a mission in South Carolina in the heart of the Bible Belt. My experiences all comeback when I heard this episode. That said I appreciate your dialog and hearing each other out. Besides some of the semantics and verbiage I actually believe that we have way more similarities than not. I do still believe that many Protestants don’t want to accept this and refuse to believe that this is the case because it’s been engrained into them from their Pastors from a young age that “this is what you believe” and they’re “way different”. A wide divide has been created and established before the conversation even starts. Lots of misconceptions, preconceived ideas and misunderstanding. You don’t know how much I heard stuff like this on my mission. I do think that there is one central theme that overshadows every aspect of the disbelief and misconception and I believe this is why they constantly question every aspect of whether a LDS person is Christian and how they live their life is because they are always questioning and trying to take Christ out of members of the LDS faith. That we are trying to “save ourselves” taking Christ out of it. Many Protestants want to come at it from it’s on us. They can’t accept that we actually have Christ in our lives and as a result we want to Follow Him, keep His commandments and be more like Him (on that Covenant Path). Christ is always first. When they start to understand that we truly have accepted Him as our Savior and we love Christ, it takes a lot of this “grace vs works” out of the equation. Joseph Smith said, Christ is the cornerstone and central aspect of the Faith and Gospel, everything else is an appendage to it. They want to focus on everything else and the appendages but it’s all centered around Christ and loving and pleasing Him. Faith of God requires action, if not it is dead. We become more sanctified and exalted through our faith and love of Christ. In many ways our understanding is the same we just have a broader understanding of His grace and mansions He has prepared for us. Once again, everything is through Christ, we are the not the judge, He decides what’s in our heart and how faithful we are. Love God and love our neighbor are the two great commandments. What do you do when you love someone? You care about them and want to serve, emulate, listen and follow them. This is where Protestants want to back peddle and deny us our love of God and Christ’s Atonement. We’re making steps in the right direction and I believe you’re doing a great work. Unfortunately it’s still an uphill battle for members of the LDS faith. Keep going! Thanks Greg!
Pastor Jeff’s comments at 54:50 about how building relationships is pleasing to God was amazing. Great discussion.
I think LDS do an excellent job at separating and defining salvation, sanctification, and exaltation. Maybe a lack of understanding on LDS beliefs on these is why other Christians think we are earning heaven rather than learning heaven. I am curious how non-LDS Christians can think they can stand the presence of God without the refinement that comes through our works. Christ makes it possible 100%, but you won't want to be there if you have not been sanctified and exalted through this refinement.
Great discussion Greg! 👍
Thank you!
Bro. Brad Wilcox talked about grace and works so beautifully on his BYU talk "His Grace Is Sufficient". Just want to put additional reference on this topic for someone who may need it.
Totally agree that there is nothing we can do in this life that will make us worthy of God's presence. We can work our tails off doing all the commandments and temple work and it will not save us. Only God's grace can do that. We do works because we love him and are turning our will over to Him. We have nothing else to give Him but our agency, or our will. We want to become one with Him and we do that by following his guidelines, or commandments, which benefit us and not Him. Each act of kindness we do for someone or each sin we overcome is an act of love for Him. But each of these acts changes us into a better person. Each covenant we make with Him draws us nearer to Him and helps in the processes of sanctifying ourselves. If we do an act of kindness as part of a checklist and not out of love for Him, it does us no good. God has given us commandments to help us, to better us, to change us. And if we do those out of love for Him we are changed. And when we go before Him, He says to us, "Keep the change."
Even with all our faith and reliance on Him, we will not be ready to be in His presence. Out of His great love for us and knowledge of the long road to sanctification, He provides more resources to prepare us. When we die we go to the Spirit World where we will continue to learn and grow and serve Him and others. His plan of providing a means for us to become worthy to be in His presence brings me to tears. His plan for us to do temple work and help to save those who were born without knowledge of Him brings me to tears. He loves His children so much that we are given chance after chance to accept His grace and to come to know Him and to become like Him. Such amazing grace! I love Him and worship Him with every fiber of my being. He is so good to us. In Moses 1:39 the Lord says, "This is my work and my glory -- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." His Plan of Salvation or Plan of Happiness (the same thing) is evidence of this. Unfortunately, some are not going to choose to live in His glory, instead they will choose a lesser glory where they are more comfortable. It's their agency to make that choice.
Explaining each other's covenants is probably the best way to clear up our differences.
I had the same thought, Jeff was a little vague on this. Loved the analogy of marriage.
I think it’s interesting how simple the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, comparatively. It only takes two or three words for Greg to answer questions vs long, somewhat circular explanations by pastor Jeff.
Having served a mission in the bible belt 10 years ago, these conversations make me want to shout for joy! Open honest honoring interfaith dialogue! I cant get enough! Also, I appreciate cwic media for being able to tease apart LDS culture, and perspectives that are born OUT of culture, vs LDS theology. There is a difference, and after watching Pastor Jeff's review video last night, that brought up the point that some Latter Day Saints are afraid to read the bible, (which I've seen before and is totally weird and misaligns with LDS doctrine, and is I believe a case of mormons thinking that if we only espouse the BOM we are being the 'most zealous' mormons), this come from I think is much more in line with actual LDS theology. (And that's not me coming down on Pastor Jeff's video at all. His part was fantastic!). I'm just thankful for cwic media's handle on LDS Theology, rather than some of the incorrect bias that stems from culture, that can cause us to misrepresent what we actually believe. Thank you so so much!
Very kind. Thank you. And I’m glad you enjoyed it.
@@CwicShow Oh absolutely! This dialogue between you and Pastor Jeff is healing for my soul! I love it. Just fantastic to watch genuine mutually honoring dialogue, where the goal is not to try to convert each other, the goal is to SEE and LOVE each other. The world needs so much more of this!
I agree. A member once told me that they don’t read The Bible, only The Book of Mormon. I’ve wondered if prophetic statements saying we need to read from The Book of Mormon daily were misinterpreted to mean that The Bible is optional (which it’s not!). I would think it’s especially helpful to have a strong biblical foundation if you want to converse with other Christian denominations about religion.
@@nofamenofortune Yes! On the one hand I know the Book of Mormon was written for our time and has a very specific and special role in the last days. Your point is well made. We are invited to read the Book of Mormon daily and understand it well BECAUSE of it's vital role. But The Book of Mormon is also "another testament of Jesus Christ" and if we claim to be Christian, we need to be reading both witnesses of Him, and seek to understand them both as well as possible. We often talk past other Christians and fail to speak on common ground simply because we dont know the bible as well as we could, or the come from of various Christian faiths. If I were a mainstream Christian, and someone claimed to know Christ but didn't read the bible... I would think it was weird too. Honestly! Haha. To your point about misinterpreting I also wonder about the "so far as it is translated correctly" and if this line causes people to subconsciously dismiss the miracle that The Bible is and the vital role that IT plays in our understanding of Christ and Christianity. As a Latter Day Saint I hate being dismissed by other Christians, but if I dismiss The Bible I'm kinda doing the same in reverse. And that's an issue worth looking at. The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph are meant to be one in our hands.
The best explanation I ever heard about the importance of works and grace is from LDS Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder. Here is my paraphrase: The farmer tills his soil, plants his seeds, tends his crops, and reaps his harvest seemingly by his own efforts. But he cannot take credit for the soil, the seeds, the sunshine, the rain, etc. which are all free gifts of God (Grace), without which all of his efforts would be in vain. So he is totally dependent on God, yet his own works are very important because without them, he would reap nothing. So it is with salvation. We need to do our part. As the Book of Mormon puts it, "We are saved by grace after all we can do."
I absolutely loved this discussion. Thank you. I appreciate the positive dialogue and the time taken to understand instead of talk over and dispute. Thank you for modeling what our conversations with each other can be. Thank you!
I as a covenant LDS, I completely and whole heartedly agree with Pastor Jeff -minutes 36:05 to 37:32.
I think as LDS we can do a better job of not only agreeing with that imperative point but seeking to come to know and believe that personally for ourselves. ‘I am the vine, ye are the branches…for without me you can do nothing.’ Jn.15:5-6
One last comment, after listening to Jeff I have come to conclusion that the “Being Saved” and “Grace” is so important that it’s like “Pride” and is a trophy and it’s also important to absolutely be “Different” being better “than” I think though they are sincere.
Another wonderful conversation about our Faith in Jesus Christ. I came to our Church after being Catholic for nearly 50 years. I think about the relationship of Faith(born again/saved) and works in this way…Works=Service=Charity(greatest of all)=obedience to the 2nd Great Commandment. Therefore fulfilling faith and growth in our love for the Savior.
I had this thought on this topic recently that I'm playing with: "We don't earn our way into heaven, but we do experience our way into real understanding." Doing His will leads to knowing the doctrine (John 7:17) and knowing the doctrine leads to more realizations of God's characteristics and how we can better follow Him, which is grace in action, brought about by our use of agency.
So, if faith alone is enough... and works are the evidence of faith... if one has no works to show.... is he saved?
I thought what you said- it's not an ordinance path, it's a covenant path was key. And I loved the summary of the last 3 parables. Great interview/discussion!
Thank you.
Something that never gets mentioned in the faith/works discussion is that Paul was specifically referring to works of the law of Moses. He never meant it the way we frame the argument now. The Jews of his time thought that we were saved by exact obedience to the works of the law even if your heart (faith) wasn't in it. The reformers reinterpreted 'works' to include baptism and any good work - which is heresy! How many times does Jesus command us to be baptized and to repent and obey His commandments! Whenever Paul uses the word 'works' he is specifically talking about the strict regulations of the law of Moses which even the Book of Mormon teaches does not bring salvation. Thanks to God that we have modern revelation so we don't have to rely on centuries old debates and theories for our truth.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Bringham Young addressed the issue of godhood this way: "(Man's godhood) will not detract anything from the glory and might of our Heavenly Father, for he will still remain our Father, and we shall still be subject to him, and as we progress, in glory and power, it (sic) the more enhances the glory and power of our Heavenly Father. That is the irony of a critics argument--godhood for man does not diminish God's status; to the contrary, it elevates it by producing more intelligent, more sensitive, more respectful Saints who have enlarged capacities to understand, honor, and worship him."
Spiritual resonance can contribute not only to the internal progression of God but also that of each individual involved. This is a direct analogy between this type of resonance and that familiar to the chemists and physicists. Resonance means synchronizing the motions of all the particles of the system, and thus sharing by exchanging the energy available in the system. Between all the particles, binding is enhanced by sharing the energy and momentum of the particles of molecules and synchronizing their motions. Every particle that joins with other particles by sharing its motions, vibrations, and frequencies not only gains in its finding strength, but also adds to the binding strength of every other particle that participates in these synchronisms. We have ample reason to believe that this is precisely what is involved in eternal progression. As each new individual is added to the kingdom of God, the magnitude and strength of the kingdom is increased by a much greater amount. This synchronism enhances the spiritual binding of all and thereby contributes to the magnitude of the whole kingdom, as well as that of each member thereof. Perhaps this might help explain how God continues to "progress".
Elder Neal A. Maxwell explained that God must know all things in order to accomplish his work to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. He said it very succinctly: "God derives His great and continuing joy and glory by increasing and advancing His creations, and not from new intellectual experiences."
GREAT discussion. Appreciate it so much.
Saved by Grace THROUGH faith. What then is FAITH? Where does it come from? How is it manifested in us? How do we manifest it in Him?
All we can do is follow and trust in Him.
It still all relates to what is our relationship to Him and His only begotten in the flesh Son.
I’m really enjoying and learning from these conversations. Please continue 😊😊😊
The plan of salvation is not just finding a neighborhood Christian bookstore, and then going inside and buying a bible, and then take it home and read a bit of it, and then say "I accept Jesus as my personal savior", and that's all there is to it. At best that can be the beginning of your journey on the covenant path, but at that point you are still far from the finish line.
Indeed. Equivalent to a nursery level understanding
Love Jeff, but the Restored Gospels just shines very bright in these discussion - keep on having them!
As long as there is no conflict or contention the arguments both sides is uplifting
I was excited about Pastor Jeff’s hello saints channel on TH-cam at first. I believe we are seeing his true colors more and more. It seems to me like he doesn’t want to understand as much as he wants to criticize our doctrine.
Like many other Evangelicals, I think it’s likely that Pastor Jeff feels a tremendous conviction that Latter-day Saints hold incorrect beliefs about God and he feels a duty to show us the “error of our ways”. Unlike a lot of hostile Evangelicals, he understands that a respectful dialogue is more likely to get him in the door, so to speak. If by “seeing his true colors” you mean he’s never going to agree with or embrace our doctrine, then I agree.
Jeff, I’m sorry about the poor reactions to your recent video with fellow evangelical Melissa. I would suggest reading through some of these comments as I believe many hearts were broken. I know Greg often does response videos to your videos. As your video was a response video to another video, I don’t know if it would be better for Greg to respond to your video, or Melissa’s original video - but good luck brother. I love what you’ve been trying to do, and I will stay subscribed for now, but you might learn more from your subscribers by reading the comments and taking them into consideration for future content.
I finally get why the garden story is so important to understand. If the garden was our final destination, as I think Jeff and mainstream Christianity believes, then we must have been happy there, yes? But how could we have been happy? Can one truly be happy if one has never experienced sadness? And why would there be a need for babies in the Garden if that was our final destination? God could have put us all in the garden, all grown up, just like Adam and Eve. Babies are learners, they have to make mistakes in order to learn, and parents learn what love is really all about when they have babies, and all of that requires learning and mistakes. Would any of us choose to be disobedient in the presence of God? Could we have felt sadness or regret or anything negative in His presence? Which means could we really know gratitude? Happiness? or Love? It seems we could never really choose God nor love God without knowing what it was like to be without him. I wish Jeff could go thru the endowment, he would get it. Forever grateful for Adam and Eve ;-) It's funny because mainstream thinks you have to place your faith in Christ to receive grace, and LDS teach everyone receives grace, even if you never heard of God or Christ, and LDS are the ones who are criticized for our doctrine on faith and works?
A lot of semantics here, but primarily boils down to a difference in views of God's purpose in creating us, and what He wants us to become. Is our purpose merely to live in His presence as sinful children (if that's even possible), or does He want something much more for us? I choose to believe the latter.
I am reminded of this talk when pondering this open exchange...
Justification and Sanctification By Elder D. Todd Christofferson Of the Presidency of the Seventy
I like the dialogue and the dignified discussion with this podcast. However, I appreciate the simpleness of the restored message way of thinking. Jeff uses a lot of words which mean a lot of things but in the end I get nothing out of them. I feel exhausted after he is finished explaining things that I just want to take a nap. I truly believe that a person can find spiritual rest listening to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. The words may not seem as flowery and they are plain, straight forward, and simple. Also, I am glad that my Chinese brothers and sister who will never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime because of communism will be given a glory. God is merciful to all his children and it's wonderful.
My thoughts exactly🎯😊
At 6:30 ish, I feel like I agree with Pastor Jeff. As a Latter-Day Saint, I believe that I keep the commandments because of my faith in God. I would further expound that by keeping the commandments, God is able to make of me more than I could on my own.
Sure. “If you love me, keep my commandments” But disobeying the commandments is sin and separation from God. And we cannot be saved in our sins. This, repentance is a never-ending process.
@@CwicShow agreed. My favorite scripture on this is Alma 41:6-7 “6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord…”
Thank you for these discussions. It is so helpful in breaking down the pre-conceptions and misunderstandings we develop when it comes to what differences are present in the different theologies.
You are welcome!
Greg and Jeff, your podcast today on grace and works is so very similar to a specific conversation I had back at Fort Campbell, Kentucky in 1996 with a born again Christian army intelligence captain while we were enjoying a running day of PT. This was a superb spiritual conversation! I would have loved to speak with both of you directly on this subject to add additional thoughts and perspectives! Your continued podcasts together are peaceful and inspiring and not in a spirit of Bible bashing. As our mission president in South Africa told us missionaries in 1977 on this topic of spirit of exchange when teaching others - «We are messengers of Light, not heat". Lastly, as Latter-day Saints, we believe that once we are saved and literally back in the presence of God, that the Eternal progression we experience is not in becoming more righteous but in the continued growth of knowledge. So this explanation Bridges the gap between the two opposing thoughts that there is something more to do or nothing more to do.
Thank you for the feedback! I also really enjoy these conversations.
I really enjoyed listening to this discussion. I appreciated learning more about the views of protestants and evangelicals. I hope more members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and evangelicals can have similar discussions in future.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Pastor Jeff you have a great love to the Savoir Jesus Christ! My comments to you is; as I understand your teaching about grace is all men will be save without working or keeping all the commandments because Jesus already paid in the cross all our Sins! in short no need the final Judgement because of His atonement sacrifice, that is why we don't need to work for it! so, the work is useless! That's the different between us as member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and your Christian church
I love the example of Christ telling us to take his Yoke upon us, for though his Yoke is "light", it still implies that two beings (God and us) both have to do something to move towards salvation.
Maybe time for a chat about the reformation, The great apostasy, authority from God and the restoration. Protestants come from the line of Catholics?
The difference between reform and restore dealing with the gospel of Jesus Christ
This is so uplifting and edifying! We need more conversations about the Plan of Salvation.
Greg’s simple explanations are inspired and I’ve enjoyed hearing pastor Jeff’s beliefs that are the same or similar
Appreciate that!
36:23 the ordinances are done in the temple SO THAT we can be better taught from on high. They are symbolic. They teach us. That’s why we do them.
One of my favorite topics to hear discussed. On top of that, this format of two doctrinally-educated individuals discussing differences rather than attacking viewpoints is exactly how this conversation should be had. Great stuff!
Salvation is given to those who accept Christ as our Savior wholeheartedly.
Greg , this one has learned , with/to comprehend is much more fulfilling than to understand . per-se’
Greg and Jeff thank you for such a wonderful discussion. The work you do together is great to witness.
From a high level we really believe the same as the evangelicals. We're saved by grace, but as we do good works, we receive a greater reward in heaven. I heard an evangelical say that once. For us, that is the three degrees of glory.
As a Protestant agree with the “greater rewards in heaven part”. But the degrees of glory I would disagree. Anyone who receives eternal life, no matter the amount of rewards they get, get full and equal access to Gods presence. The rewards are for the work we will do on the new earth.
Thanks for the clarification
@@maxstooksberry9458 What do you mean by new earth? Are you referring to the afterlife, or are you referring to the state of the earth after Christ's coming?
@@halodisciple8459 Both. The intermediate state before Christs return, those that are born again are present with Jesus in heaven, and the unsaved are in a temporary hell. When Christ returns, he will renew the earth and have his judgments. Those who are born again will reign on the earth with God forever, and the unrighteousness along with Satan and his demons will be thrown into the lake of fire forever.
Jeff, a thought: Regarding our doctrine you said, “It seems as though you have less access to God’s presence depending on the works that you do or don’t do.”
Is this not absolutely true? This is the point: when Adam and Eve transgressed, they were forced to leave God’s presence.
By faith, repentance, obedience, and the cleansing/transformative power of the Savior’s Atonement- we can become sanctified and enter back into His presence.
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Revelation 22:14)
“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” (Romans 2:6)
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4)
The way we need to see grace and works is like having a parachute on a colliding airplane. We need to trust the parachute will catch us, but we need to have the courage to take the first step off the plane. If we stay on we will perish. If we jump off we will be saved by Christ. It is our choice and we act on the choice to jump and pull the string.
Excellent discussion. It reminds me of my mission in West Virginia. It was hard to have discussions with people because they would simply tell me they've already been saved.
Many of them were saved in the fact that they had a testimony of Jesus, but they didn’t understand that they could receive additional salvation, like being free of their sins, and their desire for sin. They didn’t understand that they could receive more freedom by becoming more like Christ.
This was a wonderful discussion. I love understanding the evangelical perspective- it helps me relate to my friends’ interactions with me over my LDS faith.
21:33 the best way I've heard this back slide and sin explained to me was my mission president asked us "which sins will keep you out of heaven?" Many people had answer's, but he finally pointed it out to us "your sins. The answer is your sins will keep you out of heaven." So think of it that way. If you get off the narrow path, if you get off the path of repentance you won't be saved because you're in your sins. No unclean thing can dwell with God. So stay on the path of repentance.
one of the reasons i became disillusioned with other Christian faiths is referenced here a few times by Paster Jeff, too much debate on EVERYTHING. I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints about 10 years ago. I am grateful for the clarity in doctrine that modern revelation brings and i am thankful for a living prophet on earth. it has made my life so much more meaningful for my wife and I. Love you Paster Jeff!!!! I love your videos.
I love watching the two of you discuss these important topics, you are both so respectful of each other. I have a question - Pastor Jeff, why and for what purpose did God allow Eve to make the decision that she did and allow "His image to be tarnished"? To your understanding, would it have even been possible for all of us to have lived with God without any of us making decisions with consequences similar as Eve did? I am trying to understand your reasoning as to why or for what purpose did God allow Eve to do what she did and cause all of us to no longer be in God's presence if it was not somehow part of a plan or greater purpose? Thank you so much for what both of you do. I have gained so many great insights and I too feel that it is "pleasing to God" what you are doing.
Prof. Stephen Robinson provides lots of insights! There is no contradiction between James (faith without works is dead) and Romans (saved by grace)😊
Is it on TH-cam or what? Got any suggestions?
@@ClintRay2578 No, I don't believe so! It's in his book, "Following Christ" Chapter 4 - Faith and Works!
@daviddrysdale8882
"The[re] are no contradictions between James (faith without works is dead) and Romans (saved by grace)."
Can you elaborate on that please? It's too vague for me to understand the connection between that passage in James and that passage in Romans since my religious and biblical knowledge and understanding are severely lacking in certain areas, including this one. Thanks.
PS. I have read your reply to @ClintRay2578 and saw the book you recommended, ""Following Christ" chapter 4 Faith and Works", and I will definitely check it out. But I'm still wondering if you would still be kind enough to offer a perspective (whether yours or someone else's) to help me understand how and why the passages in James and Romans don't contradict each other? If you want to. Thanks in advance. Much appreciated. God bless you and yours and take care.
These are definitions that I like:
Believe = accept as true
Faith = to believe enough to obey (act). (Faith is manifest by our actions - that is why faith without works is dead)
Saved = to be rescued or taken out of Hell/Outer darkness.
Mercy = to be treated better than you deserve.
Grace = Divine help or assistance.
So let’s put this all together: Jesus performed miracles when people demonstrated sufficient faith, you could say that Christ gave divine help when people believed enough to obey. The obedience was not what created the miracle, but it opened the door for Christ to show mercy and not hurt the individual in the process.
Like the parable of the 10,000 talents and the 100 pence or the story of the widow’s mite, there is no quantitative relationship between our actions and Christ’s actions, but there is a qualitative relationship.
prayer, fellowship,going to church, singing church hymns, preaching, etc all of those are works by faith i don't understand what mainstream christianity understand about salvation being saved by grace. then why Jesus christ say if yoy love me keep my commandments it is impossible to loved Jesus without doing anything which is good. even baptism is a work.
Amen
I am really loving this interaction and sharing of beliefs. I was already following Jeff's Hello Saints and enjoying getting to know an Evangelical view of the gospel and the garden and Christ's relationship with us but this steps it up another notch. I love that we can have differences and not be yelling I am right, you are wrong. I have had a number of aha moments throughout these discussions and am so appreciative of both of you.
Love this.
You can't have faith without works... works are a manifestation of your faith.
Wow great conversation, i would have loved to hear Pastor Jeff's view of the story of the rich young man found in Matthew 19. Jesus Christ Invited the young man to keep the commandments and follow him to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
I can understand both views and both interpretations of scripture. However in my own experience as a LDS member I found that our works were temple work, saving ordinances etc and at times it feels like I am not saved unless I am perfect. Mormonism can feel daunting and impossible and it hurt my self esteem. As I hunted in the Bible for what Christ said about salvation there is nothing ever said about works in the way that the LDS church does them. I am a good person and choose good choices because I have love for Christ. I am much more fulfilled as a Christian with this simpler mindset than I ever was as a LDS member trying to stay on the “covenant path”. Thank you Pastor Jeff!
Bravo Greg and Jeff! Awesome conversation on a challenging topic. Please continue these productive and highly informative interfaith discussions.
Good works are necessary, though not sufficient, to be saved.
fun stuff!!! Greg - I love your faith and knowledge. Jeff - I love your faith and knowledge. Thank you brothers.
You can’t help but love these two
I appreciate that!
In light of Pastor Jeff’s ending comment on richness we get from these kind of discussions because of our differences, I would also submit that we need these discussions with those of our own faith because we are different, all have strengths, abilities, talents, weaknesses, experiences, viewpoints, etc, that are different and in coming to understand one another gain a richness because of those differences. And part of this is better learning to become one, not the same, but one in Christ with all our differences.
These conversations are vital for the youth, especially for future missionaries. Understanding the reformation, Martin Luther, sola scriptura and the role this played in the eventual restoration is vital for all LDS people. The reformation initiated the restoration. Protestantism was vital for Joseph Smith to have a Bible in the home, with the belief that personal revelation was possible. Jeff is bridging a gap, clarifying Protestant doctrine, giving Greg an opportunity to calmly share the differences in restored doctrine. Our youth need to have the ability to have these conversations now and in the future without panicking when someone questions what they believe.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is more merciful and is in fact true, the spirit will testify of that for those that are sincerely seeking.
Well done to Greg and Jeff!
Please do more of these with Jeff!!!!
I hope to.
I appreciate pastor Jeff mentioning Adam and Eve covering clothing. It was truly the first sacrifice. Skins were made from what must been a slain animal. That sacrificed literally covered them. Symbolic of Christ great atoning sacrifice.
Appreciate these videos. More of this.
One of the greatest questions of Christianity throughout the ages.
I'm glad I'm Atheist.
I agree that so many of the ‘differences’ are semantics. We are saved by grace (period), meaning through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The ‘after all we can do’ are the first principles of the gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost… repeat (baptism represented through the weekly sacrament). That’s all we CAN do. Other works, such as service or daily devotion, are manifestations of God working through us (inspired by His spirit). I see temple ordinances as the same cycle: faith (full reliance on God), repentance (turning or returning to Him), baptism (temple ordinance), and gift of the Holy Ghost to continue on the path/endure to the end (repeat the cycle). I envision this cycle as an upward moving spiral. However, that doesn’t mean we are ‘earning’ salvation or exaltation. Instead, through that cycle we are becoming more like Him.
It was Luther who separated justification and sanctification. Prior Christianity aligned with LDS.
Pastor Jeff's (and other protestant's) explanation of salvation, that we were in God's presence in the Garden and that one day we can return to that same Garden condition, to LDS is like saying, by analogy, that we when we're born, we live with our parents, try (hopefull) to learn about and do everything the teach us to do, so that one day, rather than having our own careers, getting married and having our own families, and having our own home, we can just one day MOVE BACK IN WITH OUR PARENTS.
It has recently been impressed upon me that we ought to speak at least as much about RECEIVING things in the Gospel as we speak of DOING things.
Think about it. We receive baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. We receive the priesthood. We receive our washings, anointings, garments, new names, and the laws and other blessings of the endowment. We receive our spouse as an eternal companion.
Perhaps thinking in terms of what we receive as we exercise our faith in Jesus Christ will help allay this overblown concern over grace and works.
It seems to me, too, that the real issue in this ongoing debate is "who gets the credit." And if that's the case I'm reminded of a placard that was said to be on President Reagan's desk which read (something like) "there's no limit to what can be accomplished if people are not worried about who gets the credit."
So are we saved by works? For works? With works?
I don't care, really. I just try and do what Christ asks, and trust what He promises to do.
The New Testament clearly teaches that you need to be baptized and endure to the end to "be saved." Those are literal scripture quotes. Also, there is a critical difference between salvation and exaltation.
Indeed. Luther unlinked justification and sanctification when he had OCD about sin. Catholicism and Orthodoxy align more with LDS. Protestants are outliers. Interesting how the restoration restored to pre Protestant
@@suem6004 "OCD about sin" lol. that's so true. he was obsessed with his unworthiness. it seemed pretty unhealthy. he discovered the whole saved by grace through faith aspect and that probably kept him from taking himself out.
@@topazblahblah After he invented faith alone he famously said "Go forth and sin. Sin boldly... only believe".
@@suem6004 it's silly when he went into fictitious sinners versus real sinners. It's like he was trying to be spicy. It makes me laugh.