TR&CI 145: How Does Reliquary Tower & The New Winter Interact (Multiple Hand Size Adjusting Things)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I will be talking about the newly spoiler Winter, Misanthropic Guide from the Duskmour set and how it interacts with cards like Reliquary Tower that state someone has no max hand size.
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Rules covered in this episode are:
613.11
613.7m (spoiler for the Bonus Question)
Music used in this video:
"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
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#MTG #Magicthegathering #commander - เกม
That bonus question is exhausting, I might lay down for apnap
And the Golden Pun Award goes to you good sir!
Please never stop making videos! Even these easier ones that are not a super deep dive, you get to the bonus at the end and I still question myself. It's so nice getting confirmations but also explanations.
@@JeffCarpenter-c1i For sure, keeping up with even simple things is important. You don't want to get complacent with the "minor" aspects of the game.
I was listing to your video while looking at the Duskmourn spoilers… I was looking at the Possessed Goat card when your post-credit noises started and I thought I was losing my mind
HA! For real? That's crazy, what are the odds of that lining up. That would have messed with my head big time.
Most underrated channel, your content is truly top notch. Great episode!!
Oh snap! Thank you so much. Glad you enjoyed the episode.
Quite the accurate goat impression at the end! My fiancee quite likes this Winter character, so I'll be sharing this vid with her. We're excited for Duskmourn prerelease if just because we're going to wear our glow-in-the-dark skeleton pajamas to the event!
BQ: I believe, like a lot of other things that happen at the same time, the effects would be applied in APNAP (Active Player Non Active Player) order. So the timestamp of the active player is technically before the next player, and so on. i.e. Since it is the opponent's turn that they are casting Warp World on, their Folio would have an earlier time stamp compared to your Winter so their hand size would be reduced but your hand size would have no maximum since Winter doesn't apply to its controller anyways.
Think found the rule:
613.7k If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player’s choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@@andimayer1119 Awesome, I thought so! Stuff like that almost always comes back to APNAP.
@@andimayer1119 Is your source for rules out of date? It's not off by far, 613.7 is right but the "k" specific section is covering Stickers (ha!), and the "m" section is the one that I see on mine.
HA! I'm glad my goat skills are still great. I really have no clue why I went there. But yeah, Winter is a really interesting approach to a group hug build. Giving everyone 2 extra draws is nice, it's actually a really, really cool way to give the deck protection (not like the actual mechanic, but in the general meaning). By having no hand on your turn, they can't store up removal and counterspells, nor can they surprise you with any fogs or T-Pro type cards in response to you swinging at them. It's almost like having a Grand Abolisher in the Command Zone for spells.
But what if they all controled by the same player?
Between a goat and Stitch there at the end 😂. Great content as always
HA! Stitch, I can easily hear that in there as well.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Rewatched ep 92 for a Tom deck and posted a question under the video if you got time to take a look at it it'll be great 👍
@@MrMe-nd1xb I'll check it out.
Seems like Conjurer's Closet will be a must-have for commander decks built around this commander if you want to keep your opponents' hand sizes in check.
There's a lot of good creatures with solid ETBs that you'd want in a Winter deck too, like Stitcher's Supplier and Omnivorous Flytrap, so you can just make sure to have more of them in your deck as well so that the Closet does a lot of work even when not being used to reset the Timestamp on Winter.
For the bonus question, since you mentioned time stamp, I think it would depend on who has priority first. So if the first player to put permanents has reliquary tower and the second player puts Winter, the Winter will take effect and vice versa
Pretty close, not so much Priority, but APNAP order. Priority also being tied to APNAP, so both pretty similar.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel how does apnap work? So the active player one goes on the stack first then non-active player, so the non-active player one will trigger first?
@@joshuajacobyap6222 If there were Triggered Abilities and things ETBed simultaneously, then yes, their order on the Stack would be placed in APNAP order and then resolve First-In-Last-Out, but in the case of what it being covered here, we're not dealing with Triggered Abilities but Static Abilities. Because of there, there's not any usage of the Stack or resolving of anything. All these Static Abilities are entering simultaneously and so what we're doing is assigning their relative Timestamp, and that's done in APNAP order.
I actually got this one! I figured it was like triggered abilities and was right.
@@lindacarpenter2830 Congrats on using knowledge of previous game workings to figure out other aspects.
Does achieving Delirium give it a new time stamp?
Oh dang, that's a really good question, and I wish I had included it in the video itself. Dang... Anyhow, the answer, sadly for the Winter players, nope. CR 613.7d covers how an Object will get a Timestamp when it enters a Zone, but then there are a few others that things that can grant a new Timestamp, like each time an Aura/Equipment become attached to something new, each time something is turned Face Up or Face Down, when something is Transformed, but sadly for a Static Effect like on Winter, when he enters that will set the Timestamp for his Effect it will just be "false" at the time and then when it becomes "true" it still has the same Timestamp from when it entered.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel would that mean that attaching an aura or equipment to Winter would cause it to have a new time stamp? If so, that might not be a bad way to avoid the "you have no max hand size" cards causing issues.
I'd love to know this too@@evanpeabody3031
The gatherer went in depth on this specific card. It is only by whichever one entered first. Delirium doesn't update it
@@theultimaterich6302 Oh, indeed it did. That's a solid note they added to it about that.
I'm still so confused, lol. I could've sworn in the previous 2 videos the card with the earlier time stamp was the one that would play out more often than not. But with this one, it seems like its based on the more recent time stamp. Is this because it alters a rule vs a card effect or am I still just completely misunderstanding how layers work?
Either way, love your videos! Please keep up the amazing work! :)
Heh, don't feel bad about it, this stuff is really difficult. So, in the previous two episodes, I covered how the Bello would still have its effects apply to the artifacts and enchantments. To clarify that, the Darksteel Mutation DID actually turn that ability off, but in the end it did so in a way that didn't practically matter from a gameplay perspective. The Bello ability is turned off or lost because of the later Timestamp from the Mutation, but because of CR 613.6 it would continue to apply, and it did so because both the Bello and the Mutation started to apply to their respective Objects and then 613.6 says that "even though Mutation is turning off the Bello, because it had already start affecting some Objects it is still going to continue affecting them with the rest of its ability".
I hope this helps, but if not, please let me know. I'm glad you're enjoying all my videos, I really like to help people out and we all learn in different ways. I big part of this is finding a way to phrase it so that our different style brains grasp it.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel ohhhh okay gotcha. So question then, if a new enchant/artifact with mana value 4 or greater would come out after the Darksteel Mutation, would that card be unaffected by Bello?
Additionally, if Darksteel Mutation started on a layer higher up than Bello, would Bello’s ability be negated?
@@jordanallen3141 Yes, even new As & Es will be animated by Bello if they enter after Bello has been Darksteel Mutationed, the Timestamp is tied to Bello itself, not to the new Objects coming out.
As for changes to which Layer the DM applies in making a difference to the Bello result, yes, to an extent. As long as the effect being applied would result in Bello not having that ability and it would have that result in Layers 1, 2, 3, or even 4, then Bello would end up not animating any of your As & Es. This is why the Song of the Dryads does turn off the Bello animation effect "fast enough", because it "turns off" the Bello ability in L4 by making Bello into just a Forest, it will only have the Intrinsic Ability of TAP: Add G and no other ability, but it does this before the Bello would ever start applying to your As & Es.
Loving this new set, I can't decide which commander to build.
I'm totally going to make a Rendmaw deck, Goad in Golgari will be a lot of fun.
what would happen if, in this order, I play Winter with 4 card types in my graveyard, my opponent plays reliquary tower then on their next turn they Bojuka Bog me, and I mill 4 different card types into my graveyard again.
Would the Delirium Activate at a new time stamp giving them a maximum 3 hand size? or is it based on the Cards timestamp and the requirements for delirium being met?
That's a solid question, and I could see that happening often as they keep printing more GY hate stuff. Sadly for the Winter player, nope. CR 613.7d covers how an Object will get a Timestamp when it enters a Zone, and then there are a few others that things that can grant a new Timestamp, like each time an Aura/Equipment become attached to something new, each time something is turned Face Up or Face Down, when something is Transformed. But sadly for a Static Effect like on Winter, when he enters that will set the Timestamp for his Effect and it will be "true", then after the GY hate it will have the same TS but just be "false", and then once you fill the GY back up it will be back to "true" however still have the same TS as when he originally ETBed.
Would this apply similarly for multiple hand reductions? If i had gnat miser and locust miser in play would my opponent's hand size be determined by the timestamps of my cards, so 6 or 5 respectively, or would it be the sum of tje reductions so 4?
Ah, really good question. So yeah, clearly there are things that set the max hand size and then adjust the hand size up or down. These are still handled in Timestamp order and for the ones that adjust up/down they are stackable. So in the case of the Misers, if you had them both out their hand size would be the default of 7-1-2=4 or 7-2-1=4, both results being hand size of 4. If in the case of an effect that sets the hand size it gets a little more weird. If you played those two Misers their hand size would be 4 and then if you played Winter their new hand size would not be 7-1-2-(7-N)=X, the Winter effect would just totally override the previous -1 and -2. However, if the reverse were to happen, you play Winter with 4 different card types in your GY and then you play the two Misers, their hand size would look like (7-4)-1-2=0. I hope this helps out.
If I remember correctly, if the timestamp are the same the earliest effects are applied, then the next one, then the next one. That means that Folio applies first, then Winter, Misanthropic Guide sets the maximum handsize to 7.
@@K1ngChr1s A tad confused by what you said. If their Timestamps are the same, then there wouldn't be an earlier effect compared to another effect as they are all equally early. When they all do have a simultaneous Timestamp, we have the players pick their relative Timestamps and that is done in APNAP order.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel What I meant is that the earlier effect are read on the card, from top to bottom. Folio first, then Winter
Question about another new card that got spoiled today, called Hedge Shredder. I know cards that say "mill" would trigger this thing, but what about a card like Grisly Salvage, does that count?
Oh, now that's a very good question. I had a video planned for next week talking about Rooms, but I might delay it until we get the full CR update with info about them. There is a specific thing I don't want to say just yet as it may be wrong. So, I think that will make for a good thing to cover for next week. Revealing and Zones. But spoiler alert, yes, Grisly Salvage will cause the Shredder to trigger.
I thought it would be apnap order since that is how multiple triggered abilities is done and in looking at the comments it seems i got it right!
@@TheAlcoholic83 Congrats on getting it right, yup, it's APNAP order indeed.
So its best to use as a commander basically. If you sac or remove it then bring it back it overrides because of the new timestamp.
Yup, if they play a Tower or Vessel, then you can have him die and be recast to get a newer Timestamp.
Oh, no mention of bonus question at the beginning but we got one. A surprise.
so good
Oh, dang, I even thought about that when I start to write that BQ. Usually when I think of the BQ while writing I will go back and edit the intro to mention it. I guess I left it out this time. I was a bit rushed last night, had to go to bed early to make it to an early dentist appointment today.
ok i have a question. cards like triskadequaphile and twenty toed toed increase handside to 13 or 20 if winter comes into play afterwards is it then 13/20 - n? i understand making it it so there isnt a number but in the case of it being a set amount..... just to make sure
@@rhettnorman8451 It would just be fully overridden by the Winter effect, 7-N.
2:13 the decrease/increase ones are interesting for "no maximum hand size" ones, because infinite - 4 is still infinite 😅
Infinite is infinite, no practical more or less about it. Like "unique", something is more unique that another thing. It's just an absolute.
What happens in the Warp World scenario if Folio and Winter are both put into play under the same player's control? Is it like damage modification effects where the affected player decides the order they're applied?
@@VolvoxSocks Pretty much identical to handling multiple Triggered Abilities happening from the same Trigger Event controlled by the same player. They choose the relative Timestamp for each one.
Sorry but im a lil stupid. So if reliquary is out and you play winter the egfect of reliquary is negated and winters delirium effect triggers. And vice versa?
Pretty much, yeah, if the Tower is out first and then the Winter comes out afterwards, then the player that had the Tower will no longer have the unlimited max hand size and will be 7-N from Winter. But if Winter is out first and then that other player plays their Tower, then the Winter effect will be overridden and they will now have no max hand size. If Winter is out, then Tower is played, then Winter is flickered to Exile and back, then now the Winter is the dominant effect and the hand size will be 7-N again.
question: if i have a shield broker target a creature and i gain control of it, when shield broker leaves the battlefield, does the creature return to its owner's control? or do i keep it for as long it has a shield counter on it
The latter, once you gain control of it the ability is separate from the creature and not a Linked Ability, making it a very powerful thing for you to flicker a bunch.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Thanks!
@@JAIME_P.C.I Sure thing, happy to help out.
A question on top of the bonus question:
cause of apnap, the player who played Warp World resolves their board last, meaning their Folio or Fancies resolves after Winter, negating Winter’s effect…
But what happens if the Warp world was played by a 3rd player?
even with apnap, Winter and Folio would still be resolving simultaneously… is there a rule for this?
@@cinnamonmink3736 You would follow each of the non-active players in turn order. So who is getting which cards could make a big difference.
What happens if I play Winter first, then an opponent plays Reliquary Tower, but then my graveyard is emptied (and Delirium is turned off), and at a later point I turn on Delirium again by milling cards?
That's a solid question, and I could see that happening as they keep printing more GY hate stuff. Sadly for the Winter player, nope. CR 613.7d covers how an Object will get a Timestamp when it enters a Zone, and then there are a few others that things that can grant a new Timestamp, like each time an Aura/Equipment become attached to something new, each time something is turned Face Up or Face Down, when something is Transformed. But sadly for a Static Effect like on Winter, when he enters that will set the Timestamp for his Effect and it will be "true", then after the GY hate it will have the same TS but just be "false", and then once you fill the GY back up it will be back to "true" however still have the same TS as when he originally ETBed.
Probably a good reason to run a conjurer's closet in your deck for this commander just to make sure that your commander always has the most recent time stamp as possible.
@@anthonydelfino6171 Heh, yeah, if you have some other solid ETBs on creatures, then that would be a solid include. Especially if your playgroup does run a lot of Thought Vessels and Reliquary Towers.
Hi, I have a question. Say I have a Winter on the board with delirium active at 7, meaning my opponent's maximum hand size is 0. Then one of my opponent copies Winter but he doesnt have delirium active, what happens in this case? Is my opponent's max hand size back to 7? Or since his Winter isnt active, mine will be make their hand size 0?
Their own Winter wouldn't override their own hand as Winter's ability only applies to the opponents of that Winter. However, if you have an active Winter setting Player A, B, and C's hands to 0, and then Player A plays a clone copy of Winter and their Winter is online with 4 cards in their own GY, then Player A would still have hand size of 0, and then Player B, C, and you would all have a hand size of 3.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel so if their Winter isn't online, nothing changes right?
@@joshuajacobyap6222 Correct, if the Delirium requirement isn't satisfied then it will not be applying anything that changes their hand size limit.
Have timestamps been a thing and I just never noticed? I've been playing seriously for the past 10 years and i have never known about this
@@couchcommander5280 Yup, been around for a while. They don't normally come up, I mean technically they come up frequently, like hundreds of not thousands of times in an average game of Commander, but in terms of them coming up in a way you have to think about them and figure something out, not all too often. That's a good sign, the things working under the hood or in the background should be pretty hidden.
I love this game, but holy crap it's dense
@@couchcommander5280 Yup, that's why this series exists. Stuff is tough.
Is this the same thing with emblem too?
Huh, there are actually 4 Emblems in the game that state you have no max hand size, pretty cool. The creation of the Emblem is its Timestamp, since it isn't a permanent entering the BF. Eventually, WotC will probably make a black-bordered way to kill off an Emblem, but for now once it's there, it's there. So for this case, if an opponent has that Emblem and the you play your Winter, they the Winter would override their Emblem. If they were to be able to get a 2nd activation of their PWer ability and get a new Emblem, then that would now have the later Timestamp and override your Winter.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Would this be similar to an opponent casting Seagate Restoration which gives them no maximum hand size for the rest of the game? Would the resolution of the card be timestamped then Winter entering after that cause them to have a hand size of 7-n?
@@justinlemaster4136 Yes, very similar. Reliquary Tower has a "duration" for its effect for as long it exists on the BF, so it doesn't state any duration on the card itself. But with the Sea Gate Restoration, because it's part of the resolution of a spell, it does state its duration for its effect. There is a card though called Riding the Dilu Horse, and it is a sorcery that doesn't actually state its duration because it does last indefinitely. Pretty dang powerful card actually.
Maaaah!!!!
HA! My brain goes to strange places sometimes.
Love the extended takes for these videos.
@@tychoMX HA! Usually I just rant at the end, I think this is the first time I ever clipped a part midway through and added it to the end. I knew I made the sounds while recording the audio, but it wasn't until doing the editing that I realized just how ridiculous it sounded. Just had to share that with the world...
Can someone help me figure this out: The Reliquary Tower and similar cards say there's no max hand size, and then Winter and similar effects reduce hand size. Fine. But how do you reduce something that's not there, as per the wording "no maximum hand size"? That means, if we're gonna take it verbatim, that there is no such thing as a 'maximum hand size" for that player, so defining any size for it should just fizzle. Now, if the effect said "Your maximum hand size is infinite", then the confusion over which effect comes first would make sense to me, but how do you override Reliquary Tower with Winter, if its effect removes that parameter from consideration altogether. I get how the rule actually works, but the wording describes something very different, imho...
Winter doesn't reduce maximum hand size, it sets it to (7 minus some number).
For ease of explanation, lets say you just got Delirium, so you have 4 card types in your graveyard. In this case, Winter's effect basically reads "Each opponent's maximum hand size is 3" **NOT** "Each opponent's maximum hand size is reduced by 4."
You can see now how "no maximum hand size" can be overridden by "maximum hand size is 3" just like how "maximum hand size is 3" can be overridden by "no maximum hand size" if the timestamp was reversed.
Meanwhile, a card like gnat miser which **does** actually reduce hand size would have no impact on someone who has a reliquary tower out, for the reasoning laid out in your comment. No Maximum Hand Size -> You hand size is infinite -> Infinite - 1 is still infinite.
@@TimothyRE99 ok now I get it, much appreciated
@@pjevo1850 Timothy got you covered.
horray a video all about onions... I mean layers!
You mean ogres?
Press 3 on keyboard continously... you are welcome
Oh dear, I hate hearing the sound of my own voice, it's weird, so this would be torture for me. Best of luck for anyone else though.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel nothing wrong with your voice friend ^^. pressing 3 just says "die" and its funny
keep up the good work and i eagerly await for more vids
@@JimmyLangPlays Heh, I just find it weird to hear my own voice, it's strange to hear it. I actually get customers coming in that often say "hey man, you should do a podcast" because I'll often talk with a cadence similar to how I talk in the videos.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel hey thats a great idea! do a podcast. if u ever need a european lvl 2 judge in it, let me know xP
@@JimmyLangPlays Oh, very cool, congrats on L2. Way back in the earlier days (around Invasion) I got to L2 out of 5, but after becoming a judge again more recently I've just been so much more busy than I was back in those days. And well... now the JA is dead and we just gotta wait for the next thing to happen.