Bonus question 1: yes, you can Bonus question 2: no, while you could activate the ability multiple times, it would only change the target once. Bonus question 3: no, *hex* needs to target 6 _different_ creatures.
@@sergiofagostinho Hypothetical, for BQ2, if you had two Spellskites, could you keep bouncing them back and forth between each other for the result I hinted at?
You mention that you can respond to the ward trigger of Nine-fingers keene by bringing them to below 9 life. There is another move that is probably better. Opponent casts removal. Removal goes on stack. Ward triggers. Stack is now ward, then removal. Let ward resolve, so they lose 9 life. Stack is now their removal spell. Add your instant speed burn here. Stack is now burn, then removal. Let burn resolve. Their removal is no longer on the stack, as they have now lost the game. Stack is empty, Nine-fingers is still around. Remember: Lightning bolt also reads "Counter target spell if it's controller is on 3 or less life" :)
I like the way you think! Very smart way to go about it for a "pay life" Ward like on Keene. I hope that we see that come up a lot more often so that I can pull that off. What an epic way to kill a player, those are the sorts of moments you'll remember for a loooooong time.
For the bonus question, if you redirect it to the Spellskite then it does seem like the Spellskite is becoming a target for the first time, so I say yes trigger. For the other 2 bonus questions, no clue.
@@craig1287 Correct! It is becoming a target if you redirect it, even though it's already been sitting on the Stack. Best of luck with the other two BQs, keep thinking em through.
For the bonus questions: 1) Yes 2) No, the rules state that something “becomes the target” if it is targeted and was previously not the target. 3) No, since you cannot violate the clause of “different targets” on Hex.
Removal targets Axebane Ferox, Nadu triggers, Bojuka Bog pops out of the deck, empty their graveyard, they can't pay the Ward cost, elite gaming. On a more serious note, this has me thinking about a ward-themed deck with several ward-granters and trigger-doublers and permanents with good ward costs.
For me, there are two fun ways to workaround ward: - use a spell that can't be countered like *Void Rend* - put an aura on a creature using a permanent that _puts_ enchantments into play, like *Zur, the Enchanterer* (one of my favorite commanders!).
A big difference between ward and hexproof/shroud is that with ward the spell can be cast even if you can't pay the ward cost. It won't resolve, but any abilities that trigger on casting a spell or targeting a permanent will still trigger. Good to know if you're playing a bunch of crime boys.
You can also use something like a veil of summer to force your removal spell through on a vein ripper i think. Never seen someone do it, but shove your shield cant be countered by black abilities and vein ripper is black you just get it, barring other responses from opponents.
There is a green beast with haste that has ward collect evidence 4 I think . Now if they have no cards in grave , they cant collect the evidence to target right? That's pretty good
got clobbered by that in the MKM prerelease. Had a removal spell but opponent exiled a couple of spells from my graveyard with Cease/Desist. It was super effective :) .
@@intelligentcounterspell16 Oh yeah, I actually mentioned him really brief towards the end of the video. It'll be very interesting to see the variations to go with from here.
Not sure about the questions for this one. I think that yes - a warded Spellskite would require payment of 2 generic because it's triggered upon becoming a target. And I don't think you can stack them by targeting Spellskite repeatedly - phrasing goes "Whenever this permanent becomes the target ..." Spellskite didn't become the target; it was already the target. Probably would work with two Spellskites bouncing spells between them. On a shudder, thinking about Spellskite and Nadu. Yikes. Finally, I think for Hex you could redirect all of them to Hex - but you maybe only pay once? Above my pay scale. What would you suggest as a path to learning the rules of MTG - maybe even "gas" becoming a judge?
@@tychoMX BQ1 & 2, gottem, but take another look at #3. The formatting of the text is specific, number of instances the word "target" shows up. Ah, looking to become a judge? It's a lot of fun for the right people. Sadly, there isn't any official judge program, but I can give you some links and such if you want. I think YT will let me reply with some URLs, I'm on my phone now, but when I get back to my PC I can send you those.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel ah, yikes on #3!!! Need to be different targets. Would very much appreciate the guidance. Our local group needs some general rules guidance - quite a few newer players and some general confusion. I already enjoy learning about cases such as this, but would greatly benefit from learning in a less haphazard way.
@@tychoMX Here's the CR that covers the targets thing, "115.3. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on a spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria)." Check out the new organization called Judge Foundry, they're the group that has carried on the spirit of the Judge Academy after it closed last Oct. On their site, you can find some articles and also some study guides/practice tests. Not as many as we used to have on JA, but some. For looking at CR, I highly recommend using a site called YawgAtog, it hyperlinks certain words so that you can really easily jump around to find things. Doing Ctrl+F is often how you can find stuff, but that's only if you know what you're looking for, so if you don't the hyper links can help when you have an idea of where to look and then you can follow those hyperlinks like a trail of breadcrumbs to where you need to get to. The CR and general rules are the most important things to know early one, not memorizing them all, but having an idea of where to look if/when you do need to. Judges don't know all the rules, it's important that we know when we don't and the best way to then search for the answer. Leaning the MTR is also important if you plan to help judge at official events like at an LGS's FNM or a draft/prerelease. As for the CR, the trickiest things will of course be Layers/Timestamps/Dependencies, Replacement Effects, and steps to casting a spell with things like additional costs and alternative costs.
@@leocatregarde4569 Nope, wouldn't be able to. I didn't bring that one up as there are not a lot of ways to make people discard at instant speed. There are some of course, just not many.
Towards the beginning, you showed Octavia and it has ward 8, I looked up Octavia on EDHREC and saw that Lier, Disciple of the Drowned shows up in around 12% of deck lists, and then also if you look at Lier lists he sees Octavia show up in around 12% of deck lists. Are these bad together? At least if Octavia is your commander? Right? These seem like a nonbo.
@@kyleedmunds5329 Ah, yup, that would be a bit of a negative. Running the Octavia in Lier is okay cause she is still a cool card in there that likes to see you casting those I&Ss a lot, but yeah, I wouldn't run him in an Octavia deck as that just makes her vulnerable.
Any thoughts on an antiward mechanic? Something like... Antiward: [cost] _this spell can not be countered unless the owner of the target has payed its antiward cost_ ~Example~ Anti Bolt - (1)(R) Antiward: (2) Deal 3 damage to target creature or planeswalker.
Please correct me if I'm getting something wrong here, but as far as I know the "remove the thing that they want to sacrifice to pay for ward, so they have to sac something they wanted to keep" isn't actually that effective, since they then can just refuse to sac anything and just let ward counter their targeting spell. Or am I messing up the order of things here and there is a chance for them to remove a thing after the selection to pay for ward cost has already been made?
@@mfsoab Correct, it's not so much a full proof thing, they still have control over which option they choose. But if their choice ends up saving your Ripper or whatever Ward creature, that's still a win in my book.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I did not mean to say that it wasn't good at all, just felt worth to mention that it does not always have to work in the way presented by you 😉
![ค้าง (STILL) - GEMINI [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ftxx3hk5vkU/mqdefault.jpg)
I liked the last minute addition of the bonus question. I have no clue what the answer is, but I like the spontaneity of it.
@@TheAlcoholic83 Heh, yeah, just sort of came to me in the moment.
Bonus question 1: yes, you can
Bonus question 2: no, while you could activate the ability multiple times, it would only change the target once.
Bonus question 3: no, *hex* needs to target 6 _different_ creatures.
@@sergiofagostinho Hypothetical, for BQ2, if you had two Spellskites, could you keep bouncing them back and forth between each other for the result I hinted at?
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I think so, but it's just a guess 😅
@@sergiofagostinho You would indeed be able to.
You mention that you can respond to the ward trigger of Nine-fingers keene by bringing them to below 9 life. There is another move that is probably better.
Opponent casts removal. Removal goes on stack.
Ward triggers. Stack is now ward, then removal.
Let ward resolve, so they lose 9 life. Stack is now their removal spell.
Add your instant speed burn here. Stack is now burn, then removal.
Let burn resolve. Their removal is no longer on the stack, as they have now lost the game. Stack is empty, Nine-fingers is still around.
Remember: Lightning bolt also reads "Counter target spell if it's controller is on 3 or less life" :)
I like the way you think! Very smart way to go about it for a "pay life" Ward like on Keene. I hope that we see that come up a lot more often so that I can pull that off. What an epic way to kill a player, those are the sorts of moments you'll remember for a loooooong time.
For the bonus question, if you redirect it to the Spellskite then it does seem like the Spellskite is becoming a target for the first time, so I say yes trigger. For the other 2 bonus questions, no clue.
@@craig1287 Correct! It is becoming a target if you redirect it, even though it's already been sitting on the Stack. Best of luck with the other two BQs, keep thinking em through.
For the bonus questions:
1) Yes
2) No, the rules state that something “becomes the target” if it is targeted and was previously not the target.
3) No, since you cannot violate the clause of “different targets” on Hex.
@@jemm113 Nicely done! Nailed em all.
Removal targets Axebane Ferox, Nadu triggers, Bojuka Bog pops out of the deck, empty their graveyard, they can't pay the Ward cost, elite gaming.
On a more serious note, this has me thinking about a ward-themed deck with several ward-granters and trigger-doublers and permanents with good ward costs.
That would be a very resilient deck. Still run a lot of indestructible granters so that you're safe from non-targeting board wipes as well.
For me, there are two fun ways to workaround ward:
- use a spell that can't be countered like *Void Rend*
- put an aura on a creature using a permanent that _puts_ enchantments into play, like *Zur, the Enchanterer* (one of my favorite commanders!).
@@sergiofagostinho Ah, yeah, those are two solid ways to avoid Ward. For Void Rend, makes it an interestingly good since it can't work on HP/Shroud.
A big difference between ward and hexproof/shroud is that with ward the spell can be cast even if you can't pay the ward cost. It won't resolve, but any abilities that trigger on casting a spell or targeting a permanent will still trigger. Good to know if you're playing a bunch of crime boys.
@@petersullivan9559 Oh yeah, all the crimes.
You can also use something like a veil of summer to force your removal spell through on a vein ripper i think. Never seen someone do it, but shove your shield cant be countered by black abilities and vein ripper is black you just get it, barring other responses from opponents.
@@connorl0204 Heh, that could help out for sure. Great for those really harsh Ward costs.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel don’t forget about Lier, and Taigam Ojutai Master too
@@connorl0204 Ah. Yeah, Taigam is another good save for Ward.
There is a green beast with haste that has ward collect evidence 4 I think . Now if they have no cards in grave , they cant collect the evidence to target right? That's pretty good
got clobbered by that in the MKM prerelease. Had a removal spell but opponent exiled a couple of spells from my graveyard with Cease/Desist. It was super effective :) .
@@tychoMX yeah ok now I like that ward
@@intelligentcounterspell16 Oh yeah, I actually mentioned him really brief towards the end of the video. It'll be very interesting to see the variations to go with from here.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel right , I forgot to add that I herd it haha my bad
Not sure about the questions for this one.
I think that yes - a warded Spellskite would require payment of 2 generic because it's triggered upon becoming a target.
And I don't think you can stack them by targeting Spellskite repeatedly - phrasing goes "Whenever this permanent becomes the target ..." Spellskite didn't become the target; it was already the target. Probably would work with two Spellskites bouncing spells between them. On a shudder, thinking about Spellskite and Nadu. Yikes.
Finally, I think for Hex you could redirect all of them to Hex - but you maybe only pay once? Above my pay scale.
What would you suggest as a path to learning the rules of MTG - maybe even "gas" becoming a judge?
@@tychoMX BQ1 & 2, gottem, but take another look at #3. The formatting of the text is specific, number of instances the word "target" shows up.
Ah, looking to become a judge? It's a lot of fun for the right people. Sadly, there isn't any official judge program, but I can give you some links and such if you want. I think YT will let me reply with some URLs, I'm on my phone now, but when I get back to my PC I can send you those.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel ah, yikes on #3!!! Need to be different targets.
Would very much appreciate the guidance. Our local group needs some general rules guidance - quite a few newer players and some general confusion. I already enjoy learning about cases such as this, but would greatly benefit from learning in a less haphazard way.
@@tychoMX Here's the CR that covers the targets thing, "115.3. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on a spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria)."
Check out the new organization called Judge Foundry, they're the group that has carried on the spirit of the Judge Academy after it closed last Oct. On their site, you can find some articles and also some study guides/practice tests. Not as many as we used to have on JA, but some. For looking at CR, I highly recommend using a site called YawgAtog, it hyperlinks certain words so that you can really easily jump around to find things. Doing Ctrl+F is often how you can find stuff, but that's only if you know what you're looking for, so if you don't the hyper links can help when you have an idea of where to look and then you can follow those hyperlinks like a trail of breadcrumbs to where you need to get to.
The CR and general rules are the most important things to know early one, not memorizing them all, but having an idea of where to look if/when you do need to. Judges don't know all the rules, it's important that we know when we don't and the best way to then search for the answer. Leaning the MTR is also important if you plan to help judge at official events like at an LGS's FNM or a draft/prerelease. As for the CR, the trickiest things will of course be Layers/Timestamps/Dependencies, Replacement Effects, and steps to casting a spell with things like additional costs and alternative costs.
If you have no cards in hand can you pay the ward cost of discard a card?
@@leocatregarde4569 Nope, wouldn't be able to. I didn't bring that one up as there are not a lot of ways to make people discard at instant speed. There are some of course, just not many.
Towards the beginning, you showed Octavia and it has ward 8, I looked up Octavia on EDHREC and saw that Lier, Disciple of the Drowned shows up in around 12% of deck lists, and then also if you look at Lier lists he sees Octavia show up in around 12% of deck lists. Are these bad together? At least if Octavia is your commander? Right? These seem like a nonbo.
@@kyleedmunds5329 Ah, yup, that would be a bit of a negative. Running the Octavia in Lier is okay cause she is still a cool card in there that likes to see you casting those I&Ss a lot, but yeah, I wouldn't run him in an Octavia deck as that just makes her vulnerable.
Any thoughts on an antiward mechanic?
Something like...
Antiward: [cost] _this spell can not be countered unless the owner of the target has payed its antiward cost_
~Example~
Anti Bolt - (1)(R)
Antiward: (2)
Deal 3 damage to target creature or planeswalker.
@@firestormingfox4169 I could see them putting something like "this cannot be countered by abilities" leaving it open to spells still.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel
I think that would also balance out costing concerns too; good adjustment to the idea.
Please correct me if I'm getting something wrong here, but as far as I know the "remove the thing that they want to sacrifice to pay for ward, so they have to sac something they wanted to keep" isn't actually that effective, since they then can just refuse to sac anything and just let ward counter their targeting spell.
Or am I messing up the order of things here and there is a chance for them to remove a thing after the selection to pay for ward cost has already been made?
@@mfsoab Correct, it's not so much a full proof thing, they still have control over which option they choose. But if their choice ends up saving your Ripper or whatever Ward creature, that's still a win in my book.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I did not mean to say that it wasn't good at all, just felt worth to mention that it does not always have to work in the way presented by you 😉
@@mfsoab Ah, yeah, that's true.