@@crispincain1665 Yeah, but Bello is known for running a lot of large mana rocks that get animated. So often times a Bello player is easily able to recast him. He's the kind of Commander that people just want to turn off, and he's hard to pull that off.
1: Bello becomes a colorless land with tap: add colorless and no other card types and its own ability is retained due to timestamps, 2.1: Bello's artifacts and enchantments affected by Amphibian Downpour will become 1/1 frogs with no other abilities, 2.2: blinking bello doesn't change much since the artifacts and enchantments are just 1/1 frog creatures and his ability only works on enchantments and artifacts 2.3: if Bello gets destroyed the amphibian downpours don't fall off of his artifacts and enchantments as they're creatures because of the amphibian downpour
As a secondary point t to 2.2, wouldn't the same thing apply on your opponents' turns since Belo's ability specifically says "during your turn?" I know it doesn't change anything about the answer, but it's a fun little thing to add since the wording on the cards are so key here.
@@SAsalttotart Correct, Bello would still have that ability on their turn, it will eventually be turned off but after still already applying, but now that it's applied it's not really doing anything now.
For sure, that is a way to deal with the Bello that is less head hurting. I don't normally run the things like Mutation, Song, Imprisoned, and others like Oubliette that are more permanent answers to creatures as they're almost always best to be used on someone's Commander and it's not my goal to just shut down your whole deck; however, I know that a lot of people do play in higher power groups where that is something they often do. So for those folks, I hope this helps them better identify the things that do and do not work. But yes, for the rest of us, a nice Swords will do the job.
With how hard bello ramps (due to rocks mana Dorking raccoons etc) laughs in recasts bello... Idk how much you've played it but people who play against my bello have given up on removal because it's just recast immediately. People have tried doing it on declare attackers step to stop my enchantments from being creatures... But that's why I run protection instants in green.
@@goretoriumgaming8600 I play Bello as well and I have plenty of protection in the form of city of solitude, asceticism, boots, and instant speed spells. I always play enchantments, play some red massive removal, cast Bello and swing for the win. Bello is pretty fun, it is my favorite deck now xD
So the most important thing to remember, it seems, is that these auras work best against creatures with triggered or activated abilities and not so much static abilities.
@@bkyang624 For sure, things like the Mutation are amazing for shutting off TAs and AAs, and there are still a lot of Static Abilities they can deal with, but you just gotta be careful with which ones.
They don't work well against stuff with static type changing or color changing abilities (Painters Servant is also infected as long as it had abilities to make the choice as it entered). They will stop p/t changing stuff like Benalish Marshal and ability granting/removing stuff like Archetype of Imagination though.
@@seandun7083 Yup, they're still good at shutting down most abilities... for now. I'm guessing we're going to see a lot more Static Abilities in the future.
@@truegamerking Sadly, I'm not very familiar with other games like Yu-Gi-Oh or One Piece, so I can't really comment on how they handle their logic systems, but from the things I've heard from people who do play those that Magic is a much more complex game and something like Layers and Continuous Effects (in the way Magic does it) isn't really a thing. But again, I can't say for sure.
Since I didn't see it cited anywhere: 305.7. If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities. This is why becoming a Forest turns Bello's ability off.
But doesn't Bello’s type changing ability, to the artifacts and Auras, occur before Song of the Dryad’s card type (land) changing ability in layer four? Is Song of the Dryad’s being applied before layer four? And disregarding Bello’s earlier timestamp?
1. Same as Darksteep Mutation. Improsned does not set a land type. 2.1 They'd be 1/1s. Bello is no longer applying to them because of dependancies. Since Downpiour making them creatures ONLY will cause Bello to stop applying, Downpour applies first. 2.2 Bello does not apply to them anymore, because Downpour turns them into a creature only. This stopped when the Downpour became attached. 2.3 No. The Downpour is making them into creatures already.
For No.1 - Does it need to set a land type if its only producing colorless mana? Wastes, they basic land that produce colorless mana, doesn't have a land type.
@@ThaHarDB it doesn't matter. Downpour removes the artifact and enchantment types, because setting a type without stating "in addition to" removes all other types. Since they're no longer those types Bello doesn't apply.
Why would removing bello's ability on layer 4 with the song of the dryads stop everything? Hasn't it already started applying to everything, since bello has an older timestamp?, and like before, once it starts applying on all layers, it keeps doing that? Or if it's on the same layer, that's the layer it can be stopped?
@@Krydax8 So with the Mutation, Bello applied in Layer 4 and didn't lose it until Layer 6, but with the Song Bello started to apply in Layer 4 and then was immediately overridden by the Song in Layer 4.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannelit's not that it's immediately overwritten (if song also removed Bello's ability after it applied it would still do its effect). Instead, Song applies first due to dependencies so Bello becomes a forest with no abilities before his ability gets a chance to apply. Since Song applies in the same layer as Bello and changes whether or not Bello's ability exists, Bello's ability is dependent upon it and applies afterwards. 613.8: Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 613.8a: An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. 613.8b: An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
wow, thank your for that amazing, some day i hope to understand magics rulings, too. I hope you dont mind but this opens up some questions regarding other cards in my playgroup. Does an enchantment like imprison by the moon then also dont work on Skullbriar or is it a different case because Bello changes other permants types and Skullbriar doesn´t change his cardtype at all with his ability?
@@FlorianSchulz-uw2gv Skullbriar is a goofy card, isn't it. If you did attach Imprisoned to him after he had gotten some counters, and then somehow he does change to a new Zone, then he sadly would go to that Zone with no counters. Similarly, if he had counters on him on the BF and someone controlled a Yixlid Jailer and then Skullbriar were to be destroyed, he would go to the GY and still have those counters, but then if the Jailer is out when he then goes from the GY to a new Zone, then he wouldn't keep those counters then. Hot me with any other questions you got. I actually could dedicate a whole episode to Skullbriar just cause that is such a wild ability.
Yikes. The part that trips me is that "old school" Magic (Revised to Ice Age is my vintage) was a) simple and b) was more emphatic on the fact that card text took priority over the written rules. So all the abilities would be lost, as a rubric. Interesting that turning something into one of the basic lands indeed makes them lose their abilities.
I will note that he still does lose his abilities, it just happens after the effect has already started to apply. Muraganda Petroglyphs will buff Bello if it is enchanted with Witness Protection (not Darksteel Mutation since that gives indestructible).
Thanks for the explanation, I think I get it… My only question is about the statement that simply making a creature become a Forest Land intrinsicly removes its other abilities. How can that be when we do have cards of that type with other abilities, such as Gate to Manorborn. Doesn’t that mean that we could have a Land Forest with all of bellos abilities? Newbie here, sorry if it’s obvious. Thanks again for the explanation!
Don't feel bad with this being confused if you're a newbie at the game. These sorts of Layers things are complex for a whole lot of players that have been around for 5, 10, or 15+ years. They don't come up often and no players at the table will know they're doing it wrong unless they have someone like a judge or similar to tell them. For your question, the reason is covered in CR 305.7 which has a lot of text, but I'll paste the relevant part here: "If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text" I hope that helps you out.
Ygra eater of all (interactions with: Acedemy Manufacturer / Manglehorn) Recently this question got brought up in my playgroup, gatherers rulings on Ygra says that a resolved Manglehorn would tap opponents creatures that etb after it ... Whereas a judge I asked about Acedemy Man said it wouldn't replace and make additional tokens if a creature token was made by the Ygra controller. The creature token would etb, then get changed to a food creature token and miss the replacement effect of Acedemy Man I thought this might make for cool interactions for you to cover
@@roryhughes385 Check out TR&CI 139, I did make an episode covering Ygra and Ac Man. They do enter as a food artifact, but they're not created as a food artifact. It is indeed a weird thing.
@@roryhughes385 Happy to help out. Please hit me up with more questions when you get em. Figuring out Magic rules and solving different scenarios is a little mini-game all of its own.
If the Bello has "no abilities" after the mutation interaction, would he get a buff from muraganda petroglyphs, despite his ability functioning normally? It should apply in the P/T layer after the ability goes away, right?
Darksteel Mutation, specifically, won't allow it. It gives the creature Indestructible. But for something like Kenrith's Transformation, I think it should work, yes.
I thought Bello’s ability would be applied in layer four before Song of the Dryad’s is applied. Thus all the artifacts are elemental creatures. Then Song of the Dryads, also in layer four would make Bellow have Land forest type. Bellow was on the B’field first. I thought you also said that once part of an ability is being applied in one layer it’s other parts will continue in their own layers. Bello’s ability started in layer four, how have we removed the other parts?
If the Song were to apply first then that would change the outcome of Bello, and because of that Bello is considered Dependent on the Song and when we get into Dependencies the independent thing always applies first. This means that the Song applies first, making Bello into a Forest in L4 and this means Bello has no abilities other than its new intrinsic ability of TAP: Add G, and because of that, Bello never began to apply in a way for it yo continue applying in Layers 6 & 7. I hope that made sense, let me know if not and I can try to phrase it in another way. This stuff is quite complex.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel oh, the dependency system kicks in because song removes bellow's ability on the same layer that it starts to apply. probably should have mentioned that in the video instead of just saying that it works that way
Layers are being updated and reapplied constantly. Because type changing will always occur in layer 4 and ability removing will always occur in layer 6, if you enchant Bello it's ability will always begin to apply before it's removed.
@@seandun7083 Yeah, Sean got you answered. Doesn't have any different results if the Mutation were attached on your turn or an opponent's turn. Bello's ability will still alter your artifacts/enchantments and then be removed at Layer 6 but it's already too late by then as it already started to apply.
As a new player, this makes no sense and sounds like it needs fixed. This is definitely not a "reading the cards explains the cards" situation, and to even try to argue this interaction properly with the rules is just so much. It would make my friends (new players) quit too because it seems so absurd
@@thebmxreviewer For sure, it's not a very intuitive result. Any new player or even many experienced players that have been around for 5, 10, or even many more years wouldn't be able to figure this out without knowing exactly how the Layers System works. The CR is a dense, dense document with soooooo much packed into it, it's crazy to assume that even 5% of the player base has read through it, even crazy to think that 1% of players have. And that's why I make these videos, to try and help as much as I can. Luckily for Commander, it's a casual format and for the millions of games that have taken place where people got this technically wrong, it's okay. The cards ended up working as all 4 players figured they would. But It is also nice to know how things would actually and technically play out.
I’m still confused. I get that Bello’s abilities apply first since he has the earlier timestamp. But once the Darksteel gets to take away his abilities, it’s like he doesn’t exist anymore right? He no longer has the abilities so they can no longer apply. What am I missing?
Bello's type changing effect applies first because it's on an earlier layer (layer 4) compared to DSM's ability removing effect (layer 6). Layers are constantly being reapplied, but every time they are and it's your turn, Bello animates things before he loses abilities. An analogy would be if you told me to paint my wall, and then to throw away my paint cans. Throwing away the source of the paint won't retroactively remove the paint I've already used. Timestamps are used to order effects within the same layer (if they aren't dependent on each other). Since Bello has a static ability rather than a triggered ability, it will generally have a timestamp from when he entered meaning that it doesn't change every turn. If instead it was phrased "at the beginning of you upkeep... become 4/4 creatures... until end of turn", then the effect would have a timestamp from when the trigger resolves.
Would I be right to assume then that Darksteel Mutation works on triggered and activated abilities and on static abilities that affects layers starting from 6th?
You would indeed be correct on that. The Mutation will actually turn off all abilities, but for Static Abilities they will have to be those with Layer 6 and/or 7 only stuff for it to have a practical impact.
Thank you for your video ! I have one question : if Bello applies the creature type elemental to artifacts and enchantments because it is the oldest timestamp, and then song of the dryads say that Bellonis no more creature, then shouldn't we continue to apply the rest of Bello effect on the group of artifacts and enchantments because of 613.6 ?
The difference between the two Auras, in the Mutation case the Bello would only lose its abilities in Layer 6, whereas with in the Song case the Bello would lose its abilities in L4 due to it being a Forest with only the Intrinsic Ability of TAP: Add G. This case with Bello and Song is that Bello is beginning to apply in L4 and also the Song beginning in L4, but if the Song were to apply first, then Bello would lose that ability in L4, this means that Bello is Dependent on the Song, and in cases of Dependencies the Independent effects apply first. I hope that this made sense. I actually might make a follow up episode specifically about this difference between the Mutation, Song, and Imprisoned in the Moon.
Can you clarify the end result of bello and song? You said because its now a forest it loses all abilities. But wouldnt bello still make the artifacts/enchantments into elementals because of time stamps ans 613.6? But then wouldn't all the artifacts/enchantments now die to SBA because they never recieved a P/T due to the forest type in layer 4 inherently not having any other ability, so it defaults to 0/0
@@MatthewSim-l7f The Bello and Song unfolds as it does because the Bello being changed into a land gets into CR 305.7 making it lose it's abilities printed on the card. So Bello is losing the abilities in L4 rather than in L6. This means that Bello is Dependent on the Song's effect, and so it will apply first, resulting in no ability in L4 other than the intensive ability to tap for a green mana. I hope this helps, let me know and I can try to phrase it in another way.
I'm curious does the card Imprisoned in the Moon act the same way by changing it to a land, or does bello still keep its abilities because the card says it loses other creature types and abilities
The reason that Imprisoned in the Moon still mentions that the enchanted Object loses its other abilities but then another card like Song of the Dryads doesn't have to mention that wording is all to do with the type of land they're turning the enchanted Object into. The Moon makes them into just a generic Land Type and the game has no Intrinsic qualities associated with something just being a Land, but for something that is a Forest and not a Forest in addition to its other Types, that thing is just a permanent that only has the ability to TAP: Add G. So, long story short, Imprisoned in the Moon would have a similar result as the Darksteel Mutation and Bello's ability will still have your larger As & Es animated into creatures.
How could the rules be erated to change this? Because, instinctively, the bellow should be a 0/1 on the opponents turns when they cast the enchantment. Why does the ability revert back to normal before apply the darksteel every turn. Why does ir need to check every turn if nothing gas changed?
@@brandandixon3943 Layers could possibly be overhauled to lead to fewer non-intuitive results; however, such a change would also lead to a lot of confusion. Lots of cards would need updated text and there is no guarantee that their new system wouldn't run into other non-intuitive results in other areas.
Alternatively, Bello's ability could have been worded, "At the beginning of your upkeep... until end of turn," which would've avoided this weird interaction altogether " ^^)7
@@louisdooner1497 That's the beauty of a casual format like Commander, you and your group can Rule 0 that. Just make sure you're also okay with it not being Rule 0ed in when you're with random players. Often times when I'm playing with people, if they play a card and it doesn't actually work how they think, I tell them that for this game we can play it out how you hoped and thought it worked, but then after the day ends you can now edit the deck if you want. They way they don't feel bad for having a dead card in their deck the whole day.
How would Bello interact with a Sudden Spoiling? My understanding is that he would still have his ability, so the enchants/artifacts would still be creatures, but that they would then turn into 0/2 without abilities (neither theirs or the ones gained with Bello). Im not sure if this is the case, tho.
Correct, Bello would still begin to apply, making your bigger artifacts and enchantments into creatures, and then because of the earlier Time-Stamp on Bello the more recent result will make it so your animated things are 0/2s with no Haste, Indestructible, or the Triggered Ability to draw a card. Nicely done.
Small nitpick is that technically he doesn't have his ability, but it still applies. The outcome is as you said, bit he can benefit from Muraganda Petroglyphs.
So then does that interaction have to be "reevaluated" ever single player turn? It would seem that the Bello would stay as a 0/1 insect for the whole game after the effect happens. Prime example is with mtg arena (might work differently for all know) once it would be enchanted it BECOMES that creature and doesn't go back unless enchantment is removed. And since Bello says that the artifacts / enchantments are only creatures during the Bello holders turn, those artifacts / enchantments wouldn't turn into creatures again.
A Static Ability applying a Continuous Effect will apply for as long as that Permanent with it is out. Even while it's not your turn, the Bello ability is still "on" or "applying", but it's just "false" while not your turn. Once that Permanent is gone from the BF thought, it will instantly stop applying to the objects. So, put the Mutation onto the Bello, it's still applied to the Objects and they have become creatures, but destroy the Bello and the very instance that Bello left the BF those objects have reverted back to being non-creatures.
Nadu gives an ability to all creatures you control. It doesn't affect types, text, or color, so it doesn't start applying til level 6. Darksteel would work on Nadu. (If I'm not wrong)
I just want to know which creatures can still have abilities under an effect that says they lose all abilities. It's the lazy alternative to learning layers lol
@@lostmarble540mostly ones that change type or color. Magus of the Moon has a type changing effect, so it applies before ability removing. Painter's Servant has a color changing effect so it loses abilities while it's in play, it will still apply before they are removed. If Dress Down is out as it enters though, you don't get to pick a color so it won't do anything even once the Dress Down goes away. Kudo is a bit of a complicated one. He has a type changing effect (making things bears) and a p/t changing effect (making things 2/2s) that are both part of the same ability. Because the first part applies before the ability is removed, the second part will still continue to apply even though it is applied after.
1) That would be the same as the mutation, because being a land doesn't remove any abilities innately, so the abilities would still be removed in layer 6. 2.1) I will go by steps: 4.1: Artifact or enchantment gains type creature and subtype elemental. 4.2: Artifact or enchantment gains subtype frog and loses subtype elemental. 5: Artifact or enchantment becomes blue. 6.1: Artifact or enchantment gains bellows text 6.2 Artifact or enchantment loses all abilities 7.1: Artifact or enchantment power and toughness becomes 4/4 7.2: Artifact or enchantment power and toughness becomes 1/1 So they are going to be frogs. 2.2) They would have reverse timestamps, to they would be 4/4 elementals with abilities, but they are going to be blue still. 2.3) Layers are updated whenever state base actions are checked so I think it would fall of even though they could be creatures forever because of the downpour.
Mostly correct, aside from 2.3. Layers aren't 'updated whenever state based actions are checked', they're updated constantly. In case 2.3, the aura would in fact remain attached. Legality of attached auras and equipment is only checked after all continuous effects are applied. Otherwise, Amphibian Downpour wouldn't be able to enchant animated artifacts anyway. So now, because Amphibian Downpour is already attached, it'll see that what it's attached to is in fact a creature, so it can keep enchanting it. This is a similar case to how Lion Umbra can stay on a creature even if all other auras on the creature get removed - the creature is modified, BY Lion Umbra.
2.1 and 2.2 Timestamps are not important here. Bello's effect is dependant on the Downpour, because the Downpour sets the type to creature, removing the artifact/enchantment types, which stops Bello from applying. Downpour applies first, Bello never applies.
Song still does not cancel Bello. Both Song and Bello start applying in Layer 4, but Bello goes first and CR 613.6 still means Bello continues to apply.
@@bakdorz Song always cancels Bello before it applies because of CR 613.8 (dependencies). Bello is dependant on Song, because Song applying changes the existence of Bello's effect. Since that's the case, Song applies first, removing Bello's ability before it can apply.
#1 despite it changing to a land, I think it would still have its ability impact your creatures like how the mutation does. Since it's just the type of land, not specifically turning it into a forest. #2.1 They'd be 1/1s and no longer seen by bello now, right? #2.2 I don't think anything would change, yes the bello would have a newer timestamp but still a similar issue with them no longer being their original type. #2.3 I think they stay on because their own thing is that they make the enchanted thing be a creature, so they make sure to keep themselves on their permanent. This was a great episode, layers are always so tough and the breakdown that you did midway through really helped to put things into perspective.
Well done, and thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the episode. I felt it was very important to do that little breakdown. I wish I had better editing software so that it would be quick for me to do more visual work showing how things work out.
Interestingly, if you mutate onto Bello with a CMC4+ mutate creature, Bello will turn itself into a 4/4 Elemental with its own ability if put under Darksteel Mutation, since the top card in a mutate stack is the only one that the game cares about its non-ability stats. Since Darksteel Mutation turns it into a non-Equipment artifact, Bello's effect will turn it into a 4/4 indestructible Elemental Insect during your turn.
The effect of Bello's static ability would be dependent on the effect of Darksteel Mutation's static ability and therefore wait for Darksteel Mutation's effect to apply, no?
It would be Dependent in the situation involving the Song of the Dryads. The difference between the two, in the Mutation case the Bello would only lose its abilities in Layer 6, whereas with in the Song case the Bello would lose its abilities in L4 due to it being a Forest with only the Intrinsic Ability of TAP: Add G. I hope that this helps out with the difference.
Why would making it lose it's ability on layer 4 instead of layer 6 matter if, due to timestamps, brambles ability is still able to start going off on layer 4? Shouldn't the subsequent abilities also continue to go off as mentioned in the case with darksteel?
Oh, talking about the Song of the Dryad scenario? In that case, the Bello would be dependent on the Song applying first as that would change the scenario, and in times of Dependencies we always apply the effect that changes the result first. So in L4 the Bello is changed to a Forest that has only the Intrinsic Ability of "Tap: Add G" and no other abilities. So that is why the Bello never begins to apply.
What would make sense in my understanding of said rules is once mutation is played the effected enchantments/artifacts are still effected but bello would no longer be able to effect new cards while enchanted
Oh, you're saying that newly played As & Es you play after the Bello gets the Mutation on him, that those would stay as non-Creature versions? Only the previously out ones would get the animation?
So, why are we checking bellows ability when the turn changes. Does the game not "remember" that bellows had its ability removed during the Darksteel mutation player's turn when we start checking layers, only getting its ability back on the 6th layer if the mutation is gone?
Even with out the Darksteel Mutation, Bello's ability isn't "turning off" on not your turn, it is still an active ability, it's just currently "false" on your opponents' turns, but it didn't go anywhere.
Interesting. So an effect that only applies on your own turn, is still "in effect" even if it is not your turn. Otherwise, it would make sense that Bellos' ability continues to apply.
Pretty much. It's a static ability so it always applies, it just changes what it does based on whose turn it is. Compare that to a trigger such as "At the beginning of you upkeep, each non-equipment... until end of turn" which would have a timestamp from when it resolved (and of course would be removed by an ability removal effect played before it triggered regardless of what layer the resulting continuous effect applied on)
Im still kinda confused would DSM remove his ability on your turn so when it comes to the bellos turn the ability wouldnt happen because it was removed?
Whether the DSM is placed on Bello during the Bello player's turn or not their turn, when it is on their turn they will still have animated artifacts and enchantments. Technically the ability will be 'turned off' but in such a way that it will be too late to stop that animation happening.
If Bello is on the battlefield and on my turn I cast the amphibian downpour targeting Bello, the artifacts and enchantments will still 4/4 elementals on his turn?
Yup, even if done when Bello's ability is "false" at the time, it will still apply just enough to animate their stuff. With the Flash, it would be best to use the Downpour and as many of the copies as you can get to target all of the animated artifacts and enchantments.
The Mutation result would be the same as Kenrith's Transformation. The only minor difference between the two is that Transformation also sets the enchanted creature's color to green and so it also is applying in L5 whereas the Mutation is L4, skips L5, L6, and L7. But again, the result would be basically the same relative to trying to stop the Bello, neither of them would. They would turn off the Bello ability, but it would be too late practically speaking and Bello will have already affected the As & Es for the Bello controller.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel so what happens in the bellos next turn? Will the enchantments and artifact still become a creature with the kendrith on bello?
@@drifle91 Yes, they'd still be animated into creatures each new Bello player's turn if Kenrith's Transformation were on the Bello. The ability would technically be turned off, lost, but from a practical standpoint due to this Layers rule it will still cause the As&Es to be animated.
If Bello is out and I mutate a creature onto one of my 4mv artifacts and then Bello goes away, what happens to my mutated creature? Does it matter what is the top part or does that not matter at all?
Depends on what the top part of the mutate stack is. If the top is the artifact, then it stops being a creature, but has the abilities of the mutate creature. When Bello is replayed, it would go back to being a 4/4. If the top is the creature, Bello stops applying to it immediatey (because it isn't an artifact). Removing Bello does nothing here.
The mutated permanent sticks around. It has all the properties of the top card alongside all the abilities of all permanents mutated under it. It's only a creature if the top part is a creature.
What about the rule 613.8 that details dependency between effect ? Should the darksteel override the timestamp as it modify the existence of the bello effect ?
613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. What is important here is 613.8a (b). The existence of the other (Darksteel) does not change what the first (Bello) ability applies to, and vice versa. Darksteel has less than 4 mana value and therefore is not affected by Bello, and Bello alone does not change what Darksteel does. The other scenario cannot exist here, since the aura has to enchant Bello before Bello is on the field. This was very hard to wrap my head around, but it makes sense after I read it 20 times, and applied a lot of logic to the statement xD
@@Manifibell The bigger thing is that the ability removing part of DM applies in a different layer (6: ability adding/removing effects) compared to Bello's animating effect (layer 4: type changing effects). Since they are in different layers, dependencies don't apply. Song of the Dryads does stop Bello because it removes abilities directly from it's type changing effect so they will be in the same layer and therefore subject to dependencies. Note "would change the text or existence of the first effect".
@@seandun7083 Yeah great catch. I didn't even consider that when I looked at it before. Layers are so confusing but I also love it. It is very logical, and it is impressive that the game is this robust.
@@DownBadBear Hey, if everyone is on the same page about it, then run it how you guys want to. It's a casual format, this video is mostly for general rules knowledge so that when you're not playing with a tight group of players, people you've never played with before, then there is a comprehensive rules by which the players do play by. But Rule 0 is always perfect.
Actually they don’t become 1/1 frogs cause in game checking the static ability . You respond to the storm frogs with chaos warp or beast within. The game checks and doesn’t see a static ability from Bello cause it is now removed. Since the objects have changed from creature/enchantment to just enchantment. The requirements of “creature” to enchant to become a frog aren’t met so the spell will resolve nothing becoming a frog. Making all enchantment and/or artifacts invalid targets. The spell has to resolve for it to work, not casting and choosing targets.
So if neither Bello nor Darksteel had wording that applied changes in layer 4, then Darksteel would "win" just as Song does? Layer 6 would cause a dependency between Bello and Darksteel, causing Darksteel to win?
Correct, if they both only had effects that applied in L6, then Bello would depend on the Mutation applying first and therefore the Bello would wait for the Mutation no mater what the Timestamp is.
So when I remove Belo, let’s say during combat via swords to plowshares, the animated artifacts and enchantments are still 4/4s possibly attacking and crushing me?
I'd like to see an official ruling on this personally. People have done it to me and I assume they aren't creatures anymore as the effect is no longer on the field... But I also run heroic intervention, blossoming defense, rangers guile, etc due to this weakness.
@@janostozser1176 If Bello is actually removed from the BF (either Exiled, destroyed, returned to hand, Phased out), then those animated enchantments and artifacts would be shut off and no longer be creatures, and because of that, pulled out of Combat. They'd still be tapped, so if you replayed Bello in Main Phase 2, you couldn't tap them for mana or something like that.
@@ccarpenter1128 With the success of this video (even the Magic Circle Jerk subreddit made a post about it), I think I just might make it next week's episode.
Um, dependency?? Just like Urborgs effect dependens on Blood Moon, and thus is removed, so to would Bello depend on Darksteel, and be removed as well. Notably BEFORE layers, right?
Not sure what you mean by before Layers, the only thing I could think of that is "before" Layers would be Characteristic-Defining Abilities. The earliest Layer that the Mutation and Bello apply in and share is Layer 4 and in that layer neither of their effects depends on what the other does. Though there are other cards that do a similar thing to the Mutation that do make Bello depend on them that will shut off Bello's ability, just not with the Mutation.
dependencies don't happen "before" layers, they are used to sort effects within the same layer. Urborg and Blood Moon interaction exists because both effects work on layer 4, so one can depend on the other
As the comment above me said. Dependencies do come into play if you use Song of the Dryad instead of Darksteel Mutation. It removes abilities as a part of it's type changing effect so it and Bello are both type changing effects (layer 4). Because it changes if Bello's ability will be applied, Bello is dependent on it and goes second.
Okay I’m confused (shocker!) Bello isn’t effecting himself at all. The static ability is giving all non-equipment artifacts and non-aura enchantments the types, and if you target one of these with darksteel mutation then 100% it makes sense (and if this is the scenario then oops I’m stupid :3) but if you target Bello with the darksteel mutation, then the static ability is removed no?
Nah man, this stuff is complex. So, if you are putting the Mutation onto the Bello, yes, technically it will be turning off and removing the Bello Static Ability, but it will be doing so in a way that practically makes it so that it didn't turn it off. All of your As & Es will still be creatures and the reason for that is due to CR 613.6 that states that the Bello ability started to apply its ability in earlier Layers before the Mutation turned off the ability in a later Layer, and 613.6 makes it so that it will continue to apply.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel "If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process." So basically since they both operate on layers 4, 6, and 7, we'd look at timestamp so bello would take effect first on layer 4, but because of this ruling it'd also take effect on layers 6 and 7 despite the layer 6 of Darksteel Mutation taking the ability away? I think I understand it better now, if thats correct anyways
@@faelynOlayu Yup! That's exactly it. Bello was out first, so it has an earlier Timestamp and started to apply its L4 ability first, and then the Mutation came out and therefore has a later Timestamp making it apply afterwards in that same L4. Then we get to L6 and the Mutation overrides Bello but 613.6 says Bello will keep applying in L6 and still apply in L7. Well done. Despite getting a grasp of this specific interaction though, it will still be confusing as you encounter other Layers interactions in the future. They all have their own little intricacies to them, especially when you get into Dependencies and those REALLY get confusing. I actually have a very, very interesting Dependencies situation to cover in a future episode, might do it next week, that a buddy asked about. So, prepare your brain for that one.
Wouldn't making Bello lose their ability in the opponent's turn make him lose his ability, so it wouldn't apply in their controller's turn and thus the whole layer thing would not be needed? Oracle says: "If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control.". That "during your turn" part seems important, otherwise it would not be included there, I think.
It doesn't really matter when you start to apply the effect. Bello's ability doesn't get a new timestamp every turn and timestamps usually won't be relevant to removing his ability since either layers or dependencies will decide the order. I think that part is just pointing out that something like Dress Down doesn't matter much when it's not your turn since the ability won't be applying anyways.
@@seandun7083 Yup, Sean got it. Even though it isn't "active" on not-you-turn, it still has the ability. The Time-Stamp is for when the Bello ETBed, not a new Time-Stamp at each start of your turn.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel But Bello's ability affects other permanents while the Darksteel Mutation affects Bello. Even if Bello's ability affects itself during the transformation, after it resolves, what makes it keep it's ability to turn other permanents into creatures?
@@ThisIsACommanderChannelAccording to Rule 613.8a, an effect is dependant on the other if "applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to". Doesn't this mean that before applying Bello's effect, Darksteel Mutation is applied, making Bello lose the ability and thus would not apply per 613.8c? ("remaining effects", the ability was removed so there's no remaining effect) Edit: That seems to apply per Layer though 🤔
Still not convinced though. Aren't layers applied to see the current state of a permanent? Applying them to Bello ends up with "Bello has no abilities". So why should Bello affect other permanents in the middle of this process?
I know know that a boardwipe like wrath of god would kill Bello but not your animated stuff, but would about a damage based wipe like blasphemous act? What happens if you recast Bello afterwards?
So basically: - Blasphemous Act deals damage to all creatures, including your own, including Bello and your animated stuff - State based actions are checked. Bello has an amount of damage marked on him that's greater than his toughness, so he dies. At the same time, your animated stuff is in the same situation, but it also has indestructible so it doesn't die yet. - Because there was a nonzero amount of state based actions to perform, state based actions are checked again. Your artifacts and enchantments still have 13 damage marked on them, but Bello is no longer around to animate them, so they stick around. - After recasting Bello in the same turn, your artifacts and enchantments become animated again. - State based actions are checked, the animated stuff still has 13 damage marked on it, but it's also indestructible again, so it still doesn't die. Note that an opponent casting Dress Down at this point WOULD kill all your animated stuff. Because of the layers interaction in the video, Dress Down wouldn't stop Bello from animating your stuff. It also wouldn't stop Bello from giving your animated stuff indestructible. But it WILL make your animated stuff lose indestructible afterwards (due to timestamps). And since 13 damage is greater than 3 toughness, it all dies (you can avoid this by removing your own Bello in response).
@@Felixr2 Okay, so this is sort of like how in a previous episode he talked about how static abilities are just true or false, they're that "fast", the very second that they are creatures is faster than the sbas check and this also applies to their indestructibleness? If so, then I think I have a grasp of this.
@@TheAlcoholic83 Correct, it is because of the "speed" of Static Abilities. And Felix is right, they'd still be safe on initial damage and if you recast your Bello.
And of course a Sunfall would hit everything since it doesn't care about indestructible and exiles then all simultaneously so there won't be a point where they are around but Bello isn't.
Holy crap, I will take a crack at it but I am not certain at all on the bonuses. 1 it does the land thing like the Song does but I see it dies say it loses abilities like the Mutation, but maybe it is for clarification this time. Not sure. 2.1 I want to say yes because there wouldn't be a 2.2 would this be a timestamp thing? 2.3 they would fall off? Man these are tough ones. This whole episode was tough.
For BQ1, it seems like you're leaning more towards saying it results similar to the Mutation and if so, then yup. For BQ3 (aka 2.2), this is a bit of a trick question. The specific wording on the Downpour makes it so that the enchanted object will lose it other types and becomes just a creature, if it was an artifact or enchantment then they are not now and because of that the Bello ability will no longer try to modify them. For BQ4 (aka 2.3), similarly to the last then on BQ3, the actual effect from the Downpour making them into a creature makes it so that it will keep itself on the object. For a similar example, if you were to Crew a Vehicle and then put the Downpour onto that Vehicle, then it would actually end up staying as a creature after you have ended your turn.
ive never played with layers.... if dsm goes on bello he is a 0/1 indestructible with no abilities. simple. may be wrong but it makes more sense than layers lol
Correct, he will be a 0/1 with Indestructible, but the confusing part is that while he will lose his abilities, he will have made your artifacts and enchantments into creatures and give them their 3 abilities.
I can promise you you use Layers all the time without realizing it, but I get that people don't like them because the only times they are mentioned is in the few cases where they don't give the intuitive answer.
@@josephg279 Is there is specific part that is the cause of the confusion? I can attempt a metaphor, one that I plan to use in the future big episode on Layers in general. Think of Layers like reading through a recipe for a meal, each page is a different step and you perform that step as you read them. You get to step 1 and add salt, then step 2 says to add 3ml of sugar and to edit page 4 to be blue food coloring rather than red food coloring, then page 3 says to change page 1's ingredient to be pepper rather than salt, and then finally on page 4 you add the food coloring that is blue now because you changed it on step 2. At page 3 you were told to change the ingredient to pepper but you never ended up adding pepper because you had already gone through that step. Does that help out?
You are correct that Darksteel won't stop bello's ability You are Not correct that the Dryad aura will. as the ability is applied once he resolves and hits the table or at the start of controlling players turn. this effects both enchantments as do to timestamp the ability applied for the turn. And you did not clarify that On ALL following turns while enchanted he does lose his ability to either aura. 1. Both enchantments turn off bellos ability in additional turns do to Layer 1 effects of a spell are applied and timestamp order. the merge effect of the aura is applied at this step. 613.3. Within layers 2-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.7). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.8.) 2. this is the step where bellos ability would apply but do to dependency applied in Layer 1 this ability is lost. Bello being attached with an aura is a dependent as his type is changed by the aura he is dependant upon the aura so it overrides your timestamp suggestion that bello keeps his ability if he is changed by darksteel. 613.2a. Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707, "Copying Objects") and changes to an object's characteristics determined by merging an object with a permanent (see rule 727, "Merging with Permanents"). "As . . . enters" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities generate copiable effects if they set power and toughness, even if they also define other characteristics. check the oracle 7/26/2024 If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control.
@@twizffxi And that's the weird thing with the Song, it's not specifically an Effect that causes the object to lose it's abilities, all the Effect that Song is doing is changing the Type of the attached Object. Then that Effect, after it has happened, does result in that Object no longer having those previous abilities.
None of the cards listed in this video are copy effects so we aren't doing anything on layer 1. Dependencies only apply to effects that are on the same layer (same as timestamps). Song of the Dryads does remove abilities on layer 4 as part of it's type changing effect rather than as a ability removing effect. Bello will be dependent on it so will wait until after it becomes a forest, at which point his ability is gone so it won't apply. Darksteel Mutation removes abilities as part of an ability removing effect on layer 6. Because of this, we use Layers so Bello's ability is applied first, on layer 4.
Well, i dont agree with this. Does this just mean static abilities basically just can't be removed by "remove all abilities"? This seems like broken game design. I understand what you're saying, but it really just feels like "because Wizards says it does"
It's not all Static Abilities that still end up "working" through this. It all depends on the different effects that the ability does. If it is doing something to add, remove, or change something like Text, Type, or Color, then something that says it's removing the abilities will be 'too late'.
That's so disgusting for me, can't understand why a card which shouldn't have abilities is still applying its text into the layers/game in the first place. Like, why destroying it works, then? It applied its effect to the layers and now it's gone, but you said effects applied stay even after its source is stopped haha 😅 And I hate how Song of the Dryads works, but not Imprisoned in the Moon. 😂 I really doubt they intended to make this card immune to "lose its abilities" effects when designing it. 😅
When I first saw the card Bello, I actually did read it as a Triggered Ability, like "At the beginning of your Combat Phase, animate your stuff", but then it wasn't until reading through it again that my brain grasped that it was a Static Ability. It would have removed a lot of confusion doing it that way, but of course it also would have made it much weaker. Being a Static Ability, it allows for you to trigger a lot of creature ETB stuff.
No shade towards Chess, it's a killer game with an immense amount of strategy, tactics, and planning, but for sure, the complexity of Magic is 2nd to none. 27,000+ game components and each one is basically its own addendum to the already massive rules of the game. It's bonkers.
@@sonork It does do card draw and aggression really well, but has massive drawbacks. It only cares about 4+ MV cards, so the deck can be very slow with a mana curve that leans high. If you're running mana rocks that are 4+ MV then using them for the ramp means you give up the card draw and vice versa, so you're splitting yourself up utility wise. Then the biggest drawback is that because the Bello is the enabler of the whole plan, the deck is easily shot down. You could do a full swing with 10+ animated things, but then one single Swords or Path on Bello and they just fogged your whole turn and shut off your card draw. The final big weakness to Bello is a very, very weak defense. You have almost no blockers to save yourself from people teaming up against you. Bello is one of the most 'glass cannon' style Commanders out there, very fragile. There were far more busted Commanders released this year.
God i hate cards like Bello, the rules are fine and makes sense but Wizards keeps making stupid fucking cards that fucks with their own rules and worse, even if it didnt fuck with the rules, this cards promotes the use of ridiculously oppressive cards like Cyc Rift and Farewell
@@studentmoviesandvibes1671 I hear that, Commander has swung away from targeted removal and towards board wipes over the last couple of years, and that's not too fun for me personally to see so many wipes cast in a game over and over and over. Every turn for 6+ turns all the players are just rebuilding over and over and nobody is actually doing anything (until the combo player just wins).
Yup, I've had a couple of people that don't know me well try to accuse me of making it up or misunderstanding the game, specifically lately with my Bello deck. Luckily I've got a lot of people at that LGS that do know me and can vouch for me.
In the defense of Layers, this game is very, very complex and this system that WotC has created, it actually does a good job of making most interactions between card be one that is intuitive. The fact that the 27,000+ different cards in Magic mostly work together in an obvious way is quite impressive and because of that, we don't think much about Layers all that often, in most situations in most games, but because of this, because of how smooth it goes most of the time, it makes it so that these crazy corner cases that rarely show up, it makes them stand out so much.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel yes, all those cards work intuitively IN SPITE OF not BECAUSE OF. When you need a system to explain how something works, where you yourself and most in the comments said themselves, that hurts your head even when you understand how it works. THAT'S NOT INTUITIVE. Correlation =/= Causation Most people who play magic probably have never heard of layers or even ones that do probably never think about it. And yet they play magic.
@@Mr_Jumbles What's your point with all that rambling? I agree that it is confusing and borderline frustrating sometimes, but what do you want to happen? Do you think it would've been easy to just come up with the perfect system from scratch? The fact that it is indeed solvable with a little bit more insight into the rules is actually astonishing and the reason why most of us watching this channel come here. Dont you think?
I would say the problem is that they come up too infrequently. Because of that the average, or even above average player, doesn't know them. Then, when it does come up, they either play it incorrectly, or have to take a break and look up the rules, which sucks.
Saying that layers are unintuitive because of this is like saying Gravity is unintuitive because time slows down when you are near a black hole. Most of the time they are so intuitive that you don't need to know they exist, since they gone the answer that people expect. It's only in a few niche scenarios where they don't make sense. I would also bring up the fact that we do need a system to explain when the interactions that have a clear intuitive answer and there aren't really any other systems that approach the combination of layers + dependencies + timestamps in regards to making most things work as expected. One example that can help to explain why some of these interactions are the way they are is Gideon Blackblade + Dress Down. Gideon has an ability where as long as it's your turn, he's a 4/4 creature. We apply type changing before ability removing so that Gideon is a creature when Dress Down decides which permanents to affect. We don't retroactively reverse abilities that have already been applied if they are later removed since that would create a lot where Gideon gains then loses the type creature as Dress Down starts to apply then stops. If an ability is removed after part of it but not all of it is applied, we still apply the rest of it because otherwise Gideon would be a creature without a defined power and toughness.
So reading the card doesn't explain the card? This kind of interaction is so stupid I'd be tempted to just never play Magic again if people cared enough about this ruleset to make the game that insanely unituitive
@@likealaddertothesun In the defense of Layers, this game is very, very complex and this system that WotC has created, it actually does a good job of making most interactions between cards be one that is intuitive. The fact that the 27,000+ different cards in Magic mostly work together in an obvious way is quite impressive and because of that, we don't think much about Layers all that often, in most situations in most games, but because of this, because of how smooth it goes most of the time, it makes it so that these crazy corner cases that rarely show up, it makes them stand out so much.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I understand that and it's something I appreciate about this 20+ year old game, but I can't be happy about the rules making a card as plainly and directly worded as Darksteel Mutation just not work the way it is stated. In a casual pod I'd imagine players just interpreting this interaction plainly, as reading the card explains the card, and not pulling up several paragraphs of rules text to explain that it doesn't actually work at all here. I know the rules are the rules, but in this case it just feels like we know the rules are bad here and should just rule zero it out in the sensible way.
I'm sorry but this is fucking stupid, if a card says "looses all abilities" it should actually remove them. How on earth is magic supposed to gain more players if THIS is what happens. If you are sitting there, reading a card and the card not doing anything it says on the card it's a bad design.
For sure, it's not a very intuitive result. Any new player or even many experienced players that have been around for 5, 10, or even many more years wouldn't be able to figure this out without knowing exactly how the Layers System works. The CR is a dense, dense document with soooooo much packed into it, it's crazy to assume that even 5% of the player base has read through it, even crazy to think that 1% of players have. And that's why I make these videos, to try and help as much as I can. When Magic was originally created over 30 years ago, they never had any clue it would have grown to this level of complexity. So what we have today is a system with lots of updates over and over and over, rather than if they had designed the game fresh from the start.
I will add that it does remove the ability, it just doesn't stop it since it was already applied. Kudo will get +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs while under the effects of Dress Down.
@@seandun7083 Correct, the ability is eventually turned off from the Mutation, but in a way that the ability has already applied its effects and then still applied other aspects of its effect after it was turned off. Sadly, TH-cam caps us at the length of a video title and it's not really feasible to include all that in the title.
"Layers" is retconned rules-lawyering bullshit enforced by WotC sycophants. Stop treating the game like some intricately fine-tuned engine and play your cards as they stand, updated by the latest errata. Here is the simple, human-friendly rule that resolves all disputes. Enchantments override the cards they enchant, continuously, not in some fabricated hierarchical choreography. Bello is a creature whose ability to transform your artifacts into creatures each turn is overriden by Darksteel Mutation.
I'm sorry you feel that way. The rules, the CR, as provided by WotC provide us with a uniform way to play the game on a mechanical level. This allows for me to travel to any LGS, play with any group, and have an experience defined by those rules.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel More to the point, it's computerized for online implementation, requiring detailed tracking of "timestamped" past events that are no longer evident in the current state of play, along with recursive evaluation of complex layered states of spell interaction. None of this was necessary in the days of real-life human interaction, which was based solely on the evident state of the game at any point during gameplay.
@@QuicksilverSG I don't know man... Back before they added the Stack to the game, they had a system called the Batch and it was pretty dang wild. Back in the early days, most LGSs didn't even have anyone there that understood the Batch.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Batches were the 4th Edition version of the Stack, which attempted to collect Instant spell sequences into separate mini-stacks. The problem back then was that Interrupts (mana and counterspells) were supposed to resolve before Instants, which meant you couldn't play an Instant on top of an Interrupt. So you could stack up Instants in a batch, but as soon as you cast an Interrupt on the batch you had to resolve the batch before casting any more Instants on it. Got that? Neither did most players at the time. Before that, in Revised/3rd Edition days, Instant spells within each gameplay phase were treated as occuring sequentially. So if you cast a Giant Growth on your Ornithopter, a subsequent Lightning Bolt wouldn't kill it, but a Counterspell could interrupt the Giant Growth. This was easy to understand, but as card design got more sophisticated, distinguishing between Instants and Interrupts became problematic. WotC eventually decided to eliminate that distinction, effectively promoting Instants to Interrupt status and consolodating everything (except damage and mana) on a single stack.
If you want to use the latest Errata, then I would recommend also looking at the latest rulings. Here's one for Bello: "If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control."
Imprisoned in the Moon has the same result as Darksteel Mutation. It's ability removing part applies in layer 6 after Bello's has already applied in layer 4. Amphibian Downpour actually removes all types other than creature when it turns them into frog creatures. Turns out they will just be 1/1 frogs that are no longer artifacts or enchantments. Blinking Bello doesn't change this since dependencies mean that the Downpours' type changing effects happen before Bello's since they are on the same layer and change what Bello applies to. Downpour does keep them creatures meaning it sticks around once no other effect is animating them. Here's a ruling for Amphibious Downpour: "Amphibian Downpour may enchant a permanent that is only temporarily a creature, such as a Vehicle. If this happens, Amphibian Downpour's effect causes the enchanted permanent to remain a 1/1 blue Frog creature even after the temporary effect making it a creature expires."
My takeaway frim this:
Bolt the Bello.
@@crispincain1665 Yeah, but Bello is known for running a lot of large mana rocks that get animated. So often times a Bello player is easily able to recast him. He's the kind of Commander that people just want to turn off, and he's hard to pull that off.
1: Bello becomes a colorless land with tap: add colorless and no other card types and its own ability is retained due to timestamps, 2.1: Bello's artifacts and enchantments affected by Amphibian Downpour will become 1/1 frogs with no other abilities, 2.2: blinking bello doesn't change much since the artifacts and enchantments are just 1/1 frog creatures and his ability only works on enchantments and artifacts 2.3: if Bello gets destroyed the amphibian downpours don't fall off of his artifacts and enchantments as they're creatures because of the amphibian downpour
Very nicely done! Nailed every single part!
As a secondary point t to 2.2, wouldn't the same thing apply on your opponents' turns since Belo's ability specifically says "during your turn?" I know it doesn't change anything about the answer, but it's a fun little thing to add since the wording on the cards are so key here.
@@SAsalttotart Correct, Bello would still have that ability on their turn, it will eventually be turned off but after still already applying, but now that it's applied it's not really doing anything now.
Reading the card does not explain the card.
@@wolfdwarf Ha, yup, that's often unmentioned theme for a lot of these episodes, but this episode in particular for sure.
I'm still confused. I think I'll just Swords to Plowshares Bello instead :)
HAHAHA! You have a good point there.
For sure, that is a way to deal with the Bello that is less head hurting. I don't normally run the things like Mutation, Song, Imprisoned, and others like Oubliette that are more permanent answers to creatures as they're almost always best to be used on someone's Commander and it's not my goal to just shut down your whole deck; however, I know that a lot of people do play in higher power groups where that is something they often do. So for those folks, I hope this helps them better identify the things that do and do not work. But yes, for the rest of us, a nice Swords will do the job.
With how hard bello ramps (due to rocks mana Dorking raccoons etc) laughs in recasts bello... Idk how much you've played it but people who play against my bello have given up on removal because it's just recast immediately. People have tried doing it on declare attackers step to stop my enchantments from being creatures... But that's why I run protection instants in green.
@@goretoriumgaming8600 Green hits different :P
@@goretoriumgaming8600 I play Bello as well and I have plenty of protection in the form of city of solitude, asceticism, boots, and instant speed spells. I always play enchantments, play some red massive removal, cast Bello and swing for the win. Bello is pretty fun, it is my favorite deck now xD
So the most important thing to remember, it seems, is that these auras work best against creatures with triggered or activated abilities and not so much static abilities.
@@bkyang624 For sure, things like the Mutation are amazing for shutting off TAs and AAs, and there are still a lot of Static Abilities they can deal with, but you just gotta be careful with which ones.
They don't work well against stuff with static type changing or color changing abilities (Painters Servant is also infected as long as it had abilities to make the choice as it entered). They will stop p/t changing stuff like Benalish Marshal and ability granting/removing stuff like Archetype of Imagination though.
@@seandun7083 Yup, they're still good at shutting down most abilities... for now. I'm guessing we're going to see a lot more Static Abilities in the future.
Layers are necessary, but man will they never not make my head hurt
@@leonardodequirm Yup, even when you know how they work, it still hurts to say the results play out like this.
They really aren't necessary in this way. There are plenty of other games that do this in a more intuitive way.
They aren’t necessarily
Stack worked so much better
@@truegamerking Sadly, I'm not very familiar with other games like Yu-Gi-Oh or One Piece, so I can't really comment on how they handle their logic systems, but from the things I've heard from people who do play those that Magic is a much more complex game and something like Layers and Continuous Effects (in the way Magic does it) isn't really a thing. But again, I can't say for sure.
Since I didn't see it cited anywhere:
305.7. If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy
effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Setting a
land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
This is why becoming a Forest turns Bello's ability off.
@@jonpiest4648 Ah, yeah, I didn't provide the exact CR for that part. Thanks for sharing that citation.
Rule 305.7, or as I like to call it, "Blood Moon's actual rules text"
But doesn't Bello’s type changing ability, to the artifacts and Auras, occur before Song of the Dryad’s card type (land) changing ability in layer four? Is Song of the Dryad’s being applied before layer four? And disregarding Bello’s earlier timestamp?
@@ufoturtle08 I saw your other comment and I had replied to it. Check it out and see if that helps out.
1. Same as Darksteep Mutation. Improsned does not set a land type.
2.1 They'd be 1/1s. Bello is no longer applying to them because of dependancies. Since Downpiour making them creatures ONLY will cause Bello to stop applying, Downpour applies first.
2.2 Bello does not apply to them anymore, because Downpour turns them into a creature only. This stopped when the Downpour became attached.
2.3 No. The Downpour is making them into creatures already.
bello's ability doesn't specify non-creature, so it also works on 4 mv artifact creatures/enchantment creatures
For No.1 - Does it need to set a land type if its only producing colorless mana? Wastes, they basic land that produce colorless mana, doesn't have a land type.
@@ThaHarDB it doesn't matter. Downpour removes the artifact and enchantment types, because setting a type without stating "in addition to" removes all other types. Since they're no longer those types Bello doesn't apply.
@@DanielDenino For the abilities to be removed in layer 4 like Song, it would need to set the land type to a Basic Land type, like Forest.
@@RazzyKitty oh yeah, probably right
Why would removing bello's ability on layer 4 with the song of the dryads stop everything? Hasn't it already started applying to everything, since bello has an older timestamp?, and like before, once it starts applying on all layers, it keeps doing that? Or if it's on the same layer, that's the layer it can be stopped?
@@Krydax8 So with the Mutation, Bello applied in Layer 4 and didn't lose it until Layer 6, but with the Song Bello started to apply in Layer 4 and then was immediately overridden by the Song in Layer 4.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannelit's not that it's immediately overwritten (if song also removed Bello's ability after it applied it would still do its effect). Instead, Song applies first due to dependencies so Bello becomes a forest with no abilities before his ability gets a chance to apply.
Since Song applies in the same layer as Bello and changes whether or not Bello's ability exists, Bello's ability is dependent upon it and applies afterwards.
613.8: Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.8a: An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.8b: An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
@@seandun7083thank you. I replied asking the same question just recently but now jt makes sense. I forgot about dependencies.
wow, thank your for that amazing, some day i hope to understand magics rulings, too. I hope you dont mind but this opens up some questions regarding other cards in my playgroup. Does an enchantment like imprison by the moon then also dont work on Skullbriar or is it a different case because Bello changes other permants types and Skullbriar doesn´t change his cardtype at all with his ability?
@@FlorianSchulz-uw2gv Skullbriar is a goofy card, isn't it. If you did attach Imprisoned to him after he had gotten some counters, and then somehow he does change to a new Zone, then he sadly would go to that Zone with no counters. Similarly, if he had counters on him on the BF and someone controlled a Yixlid Jailer and then Skullbriar were to be destroyed, he would go to the GY and still have those counters, but then if the Jailer is out when he then goes from the GY to a new Zone, then he wouldn't keep those counters then.
Hot me with any other questions you got. I actually could dedicate a whole episode to Skullbriar just cause that is such a wild ability.
Yikes.
The part that trips me is that "old school" Magic (Revised to Ice Age is my vintage) was a) simple and b) was more emphatic on the fact that card text took priority over the written rules. So all the abilities would be lost, as a rubric.
Interesting that turning something into one of the basic lands indeed makes them lose their abilities.
@@tychoMX Yeah, each individual card is basically it's own addendum to the CR and they modify the rules of the game for just your current game.
I will note that he still does lose his abilities, it just happens after the effect has already started to apply. Muraganda Petroglyphs will buff Bello if it is enchanted with Witness Protection (not Darksteel Mutation since that gives indestructible).
Basically, WotC had to do this to make Blood Moon's rules text work as written
Thanks for the explanation, I think I get it…
My only question is about the statement that simply making a creature become a Forest Land intrinsicly removes its other abilities. How can that be when we do have cards of that type with other abilities, such as Gate to Manorborn. Doesn’t that mean that we could have a Land Forest with all of bellos abilities?
Newbie here, sorry if it’s obvious. Thanks again for the explanation!
Don't feel bad with this being confused if you're a newbie at the game. These sorts of Layers things are complex for a whole lot of players that have been around for 5, 10, or 15+ years. They don't come up often and no players at the table will know they're doing it wrong unless they have someone like a judge or similar to tell them. For your question, the reason is covered in CR 305.7 which has a lot of text, but I'll paste the relevant part here: "If an effect sets a land's subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text" I hope that helps you out.
Ygra eater of all (interactions with: Acedemy Manufacturer / Manglehorn)
Recently this question got brought up in my playgroup, gatherers rulings on Ygra says that a resolved Manglehorn would tap opponents creatures that etb after it ...
Whereas a judge I asked about Acedemy Man said it wouldn't replace and make additional tokens if a creature token was made by the Ygra controller. The creature token would etb, then get changed to a food creature token and miss the replacement effect of Acedemy Man
I thought this might make for cool interactions for you to cover
@ThisIsACommanderChannel
@@roryhughes385 Check out TR&CI 139, I did make an episode covering Ygra and Ac Man. They do enter as a food artifact, but they're not created as a food artifact. It is indeed a weird thing.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel awesome Dude you're the best thank you! 🤘🏻
@@roryhughes385 Happy to help out. Please hit me up with more questions when you get em. Figuring out Magic rules and solving different scenarios is a little mini-game all of its own.
If the Bello has "no abilities" after the mutation interaction, would he get a buff from muraganda petroglyphs, despite his ability functioning normally? It should apply in the P/T layer after the ability goes away, right?
Darksteel Mutation, specifically, won't allow it. It gives the creature Indestructible. But for something like Kenrith's Transformation, I think it should work, yes.
@@Rukalin Nice, good catch on the Mutation still giving it the Indestructible. That Muraganda card is pretty cool.
I hate layers. WotC really should replace the layer system with something more intuitive.
I thought Bello’s ability would be applied in layer four before Song of the Dryad’s is applied. Thus all the artifacts are elemental creatures. Then Song of the Dryads, also in layer four would make Bellow have Land forest type.
Bellow was on the B’field first.
I thought you also said that once part of an ability is being applied in one layer it’s other parts will continue in their own layers. Bello’s ability started in layer four, how have we removed the other parts?
If the Song were to apply first then that would change the outcome of Bello, and because of that Bello is considered Dependent on the Song and when we get into Dependencies the independent thing always applies first. This means that the Song applies first, making Bello into a Forest in L4 and this means Bello has no abilities other than its new intrinsic ability of TAP: Add G, and because of that, Bello never began to apply in a way for it yo continue applying in Layers 6 & 7. I hope that made sense, let me know if not and I can try to phrase it in another way. This stuff is quite complex.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel oh, the dependency system kicks in because song removes bellow's ability on the same layer that it starts to apply. probably should have mentioned that in the video instead of just saying that it works that way
Would the darksteel mutation not work on the turn it enter but be in effect the following turns ? Or are the layers applied each turn ?
Layers are being updated and reapplied constantly. Because type changing will always occur in layer 4 and ability removing will always occur in layer 6, if you enchant Bello it's ability will always begin to apply before it's removed.
@@seandun7083 Yeah, Sean got you answered. Doesn't have any different results if the Mutation were attached on your turn or an opponent's turn. Bello's ability will still alter your artifacts/enchantments and then be removed at Layer 6 but it's already too late by then as it already started to apply.
As a new player, this makes no sense and sounds like it needs fixed. This is definitely not a "reading the cards explains the cards" situation, and to even try to argue this interaction properly with the rules is just so much. It would make my friends (new players) quit too because it seems so absurd
@@thebmxreviewer For sure, it's not a very intuitive result. Any new player or even many experienced players that have been around for 5, 10, or even many more years wouldn't be able to figure this out without knowing exactly how the Layers System works. The CR is a dense, dense document with soooooo much packed into it, it's crazy to assume that even 5% of the player base has read through it, even crazy to think that 1% of players have. And that's why I make these videos, to try and help as much as I can. Luckily for Commander, it's a casual format and for the millions of games that have taken place where people got this technically wrong, it's okay. The cards ended up working as all 4 players figured they would. But It is also nice to know how things would actually and technically play out.
I’m still confused. I get that Bello’s abilities apply first since he has the earlier timestamp. But once the Darksteel gets to take away his abilities, it’s like he doesn’t exist anymore right? He no longer has the abilities so they can no longer apply. What am I missing?
Bello's type changing effect applies first because it's on an earlier layer (layer 4) compared to DSM's ability removing effect (layer 6).
Layers are constantly being reapplied, but every time they are and it's your turn, Bello animates things before he loses abilities.
An analogy would be if you told me to paint my wall, and then to throw away my paint cans. Throwing away the source of the paint won't retroactively remove the paint I've already used.
Timestamps are used to order effects within the same layer (if they aren't dependent on each other). Since Bello has a static ability rather than a triggered ability, it will generally have a timestamp from when he entered meaning that it doesn't change every turn. If instead it was phrased "at the beginning of you upkeep... become 4/4 creatures... until end of turn", then the effect would have a timestamp from when the trigger resolves.
@@seandun7083 Solid reply, I like the paint metaphor. I also use a food recipe metaphor to help folks wrap their head around it.
@@seandun7083thank you, that helped it make quite a bit more sense actually. If the ability had to re-trigger each turn, then darksteel would stop it👍
Would I be right to assume then that Darksteel Mutation works on triggered and activated abilities and on static abilities that affects layers starting from 6th?
You would indeed be correct on that. The Mutation will actually turn off all abilities, but for Static Abilities they will have to be those with Layer 6 and/or 7 only stuff for it to have a practical impact.
Thank you for your video ! I have one question : if Bello applies the creature type elemental to artifacts and enchantments because it is the oldest timestamp, and then song of the dryads say that Bellonis no more creature, then shouldn't we continue to apply the rest of Bello effect on the group of artifacts and enchantments because of 613.6 ?
The difference between the two Auras, in the Mutation case the Bello would only lose its abilities in Layer 6, whereas with in the Song case the Bello would lose its abilities in L4 due to it being a Forest with only the Intrinsic Ability of TAP: Add G. This case with Bello and Song is that Bello is beginning to apply in L4 and also the Song beginning in L4, but if the Song were to apply first, then Bello would lose that ability in L4, this means that Bello is Dependent on the Song, and in cases of Dependencies the Independent effects apply first. I hope that this made sense. I actually might make a follow up episode specifically about this difference between the Mutation, Song, and Imprisoned in the Moon.
So the same would be applied to Eaten by Piranhas?
Yup, same result that the Mutation has on Bello.
Can you clarify the end result of bello and song? You said because its now a forest it loses all abilities. But wouldnt bello still make the artifacts/enchantments into elementals because of time stamps ans 613.6? But then wouldn't all the artifacts/enchantments now die to SBA because they never recieved a P/T due to the forest type in layer 4 inherently not having any other ability, so it defaults to 0/0
@@MatthewSim-l7f The Bello and Song unfolds as it does because the Bello being changed into a land gets into CR 305.7 making it lose it's abilities printed on the card. So Bello is losing the abilities in L4 rather than in L6. This means that Bello is Dependent on the Song's effect, and so it will apply first, resulting in no ability in L4 other than the intensive ability to tap for a green mana. I hope this helps, let me know and I can try to phrase it in another way.
I'm curious does the card Imprisoned in the Moon act the same way by changing it to a land, or does bello still keep its abilities because the card says it loses other creature types and abilities
The reason that Imprisoned in the Moon still mentions that the enchanted Object loses its other abilities but then another card like Song of the Dryads doesn't have to mention that wording is all to do with the type of land they're turning the enchanted Object into. The Moon makes them into just a generic Land Type and the game has no Intrinsic qualities associated with something just being a Land, but for something that is a Forest and not a Forest in addition to its other Types, that thing is just a permanent that only has the ability to TAP: Add G. So, long story short, Imprisoned in the Moon would have a similar result as the Darksteel Mutation and Bello's ability will still have your larger As & Es animated into creatures.
How could the rules be erated to change this? Because, instinctively, the bellow should be a 0/1 on the opponents turns when they cast the enchantment. Why does the ability revert back to normal before apply the darksteel every turn. Why does ir need to check every turn if nothing gas changed?
@@brandandixon3943 Layers could possibly be overhauled to lead to fewer non-intuitive results; however, such a change would also lead to a lot of confusion. Lots of cards would need updated text and there is no guarantee that their new system wouldn't run into other non-intuitive results in other areas.
Alternatively, Bello's ability could have been worded, "At the beginning of your upkeep... until end of turn," which would've avoided this weird interaction altogether " ^^)7
Great explanation 👌. Proly just gonna house rule that one though to be honest.
@@louisdooner1497 That's the beauty of a casual format like Commander, you and your group can Rule 0 that. Just make sure you're also okay with it not being Rule 0ed in when you're with random players. Often times when I'm playing with people, if they play a card and it doesn't actually work how they think, I tell them that for this game we can play it out how you hoped and thought it worked, but then after the day ends you can now edit the deck if you want. They way they don't feel bad for having a dead card in their deck the whole day.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannelgreat idea. I will be doing that 👍
How would Bello interact with a Sudden Spoiling?
My understanding is that he would still have his ability, so the enchants/artifacts would still be creatures, but that they would then turn into 0/2 without abilities (neither theirs or the ones gained with Bello).
Im not sure if this is the case, tho.
Correct, Bello would still begin to apply, making your bigger artifacts and enchantments into creatures, and then because of the earlier Time-Stamp on Bello the more recent result will make it so your animated things are 0/2s with no Haste, Indestructible, or the Triggered Ability to draw a card. Nicely done.
Small nitpick is that technically he doesn't have his ability, but it still applies. The outcome is as you said, bit he can benefit from Muraganda Petroglyphs.
So then does that interaction have to be "reevaluated" ever single player turn? It would seem that the Bello would stay as a 0/1 insect for the whole game after the effect happens.
Prime example is with mtg arena (might work differently for all know) once it would be enchanted it BECOMES that creature and doesn't go back unless enchantment is removed.
And since Bello says that the artifacts / enchantments are only creatures during the Bello holders turn, those artifacts / enchantments wouldn't turn into creatures again.
A Static Ability applying a Continuous Effect will apply for as long as that Permanent with it is out. Even while it's not your turn, the Bello ability is still "on" or "applying", but it's just "false" while not your turn. Once that Permanent is gone from the BF thought, it will instantly stop applying to the objects. So, put the Mutation onto the Bello, it's still applied to the Objects and they have become creatures, but destroy the Bello and the very instance that Bello left the BF those objects have reverted back to being non-creatures.
Are there any other creatures that work like Bello? Like Nadu for instance?
@@lostmarble540 Oh yeah, lots of Static Abilities out there, or are you asking specifically about SAs that grant abilities to other creatures?
Nadu gives an ability to all creatures you control. It doesn't affect types, text, or color, so it doesn't start applying til level 6. Darksteel would work on Nadu. (If I'm not wrong)
I just want to know which creatures can still have abilities under an effect that says they lose all abilities. It's the lazy alternative to learning layers lol
@@lostmarble540mostly ones that change type or color.
Magus of the Moon has a type changing effect, so it applies before ability removing.
Painter's Servant has a color changing effect so it loses abilities while it's in play, it will still apply before they are removed. If Dress Down is out as it enters though, you don't get to pick a color so it won't do anything even once the Dress Down goes away.
Kudo is a bit of a complicated one. He has a type changing effect (making things bears) and a p/t changing effect (making things 2/2s) that are both part of the same ability. Because the first part applies before the ability is removed, the second part will still continue to apply even though it is applied after.
1) That would be the same as the mutation, because being a land doesn't remove any abilities innately, so the abilities would still be removed in layer 6.
2.1) I will go by steps:
4.1: Artifact or enchantment gains type creature and subtype elemental.
4.2: Artifact or enchantment gains subtype frog and loses subtype elemental.
5: Artifact or enchantment becomes blue.
6.1: Artifact or enchantment gains bellows text
6.2 Artifact or enchantment loses all abilities
7.1: Artifact or enchantment power and toughness becomes 4/4
7.2: Artifact or enchantment power and toughness becomes 1/1
So they are going to be frogs.
2.2) They would have reverse timestamps, to they would be 4/4 elementals with abilities, but they are going to be blue still.
2.3) Layers are updated whenever state base actions are checked so I think it would fall of even though they could be creatures forever because of the downpour.
Mostly correct, aside from 2.3. Layers aren't 'updated whenever state based actions are checked', they're updated constantly.
In case 2.3, the aura would in fact remain attached. Legality of attached auras and equipment is only checked after all continuous effects are applied. Otherwise, Amphibian Downpour wouldn't be able to enchant animated artifacts anyway. So now, because Amphibian Downpour is already attached, it'll see that what it's attached to is in fact a creature, so it can keep enchanting it.
This is a similar case to how Lion Umbra can stay on a creature even if all other auras on the creature get removed - the creature is modified, BY Lion Umbra.
2.1 and 2.2 Timestamps are not important here. Bello's effect is dependant on the Downpour, because the Downpour sets the type to creature, removing the artifact/enchantment types, which stops Bello from applying.
Downpour applies first, Bello never applies.
Song still does not cancel Bello.
Both Song and Bello start applying in Layer 4, but Bello goes first and CR 613.6 still means Bello continues to apply.
@@bakdorz Song always cancels Bello before it applies because of CR 613.8 (dependencies).
Bello is dependant on Song, because Song applying changes the existence of Bello's effect. Since that's the case, Song applies first, removing Bello's ability before it can apply.
@@RazzyKitty I appreciate you and Felix helping with all the replies. Thanks for helping players out with their questions.
#1 despite it changing to a land, I think it would still have its ability impact your creatures like how the mutation does. Since it's just the type of land, not specifically turning it into a forest. #2.1 They'd be 1/1s and no longer seen by bello now, right? #2.2 I don't think anything would change, yes the bello would have a newer timestamp but still a similar issue with them no longer being their original type. #2.3 I think they stay on because their own thing is that they make the enchanted thing be a creature, so they make sure to keep themselves on their permanent. This was a great episode, layers are always so tough and the breakdown that you did midway through really helped to put things into perspective.
Well done, and thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the episode. I felt it was very important to do that little breakdown. I wish I had better editing software so that it would be quick for me to do more visual work showing how things work out.
Interestingly, if you mutate onto Bello with a CMC4+ mutate creature, Bello will turn itself into a 4/4 Elemental with its own ability if put under Darksteel Mutation, since the top card in a mutate stack is the only one that the game cares about its non-ability stats. Since Darksteel Mutation turns it into a non-Equipment artifact, Bello's effect will turn it into a 4/4 indestructible Elemental Insect during your turn.
Now you're thinking with portals (that game is old and I realized after typing it that people may not get that reference anymore).
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel you're fine. Portal was a good game. Shame Valve can't count to three
The effect of Bello's static ability would be dependent on the effect of Darksteel Mutation's static ability and therefore wait for Darksteel Mutation's effect to apply, no?
It would be Dependent in the situation involving the Song of the Dryads. The difference between the two, in the Mutation case the Bello would only lose its abilities in Layer 6, whereas with in the Song case the Bello would lose its abilities in L4 due to it being a Forest with only the Intrinsic Ability of TAP: Add G. I hope that this helps out with the difference.
Why would making it lose it's ability on layer 4 instead of layer 6 matter if, due to timestamps, brambles ability is still able to start going off on layer 4? Shouldn't the subsequent abilities also continue to go off as mentioned in the case with darksteel?
Oh, talking about the Song of the Dryad scenario? In that case, the Bello would be dependent on the Song applying first as that would change the scenario, and in times of Dependencies we always apply the effect that changes the result first. So in L4 the Bello is changed to a Forest that has only the Intrinsic Ability of "Tap: Add G" and no other abilities. So that is why the Bello never begins to apply.
What would make sense in my understanding of said rules is once mutation is played the effected enchantments/artifacts are still effected but bello would no longer be able to effect new cards while enchanted
Oh, you're saying that newly played As & Es you play after the Bello gets the Mutation on him, that those would stay as non-Creature versions? Only the previously out ones would get the animation?
So, why are we checking bellows ability when the turn changes. Does the game not "remember" that bellows had its ability removed during the Darksteel mutation player's turn when we start checking layers, only getting its ability back on the 6th layer if the mutation is gone?
Even with out the Darksteel Mutation, Bello's ability isn't "turning off" on not your turn, it is still an active ability, it's just currently "false" on your opponents' turns, but it didn't go anywhere.
Interesting. So an effect that only applies on your own turn, is still "in effect" even if it is not your turn. Otherwise, it would make sense that Bellos' ability continues to apply.
Pretty much. It's a static ability so it always applies, it just changes what it does based on whose turn it is. Compare that to a trigger such as "At the beginning of you upkeep, each non-equipment... until end of turn" which would have a timestamp from when it resolved (and of course would be removed by an ability removal effect played before it triggered regardless of what layer the resulting continuous effect applied on)
Im still kinda confused would DSM remove his ability on your turn so when it comes to the bellos turn the ability wouldnt happen because it was removed?
Whether the DSM is placed on Bello during the Bello player's turn or not their turn, when it is on their turn they will still have animated artifacts and enchantments. Technically the ability will be 'turned off' but in such a way that it will be too late to stop that animation happening.
@ThisIsACommanderChannel ok I think I see what your saying now thanks for clarifying
@@Elysium_VR Sure thing, always happy to help out.
If Bello is on the battlefield and on my turn I cast the amphibian downpour targeting Bello, the artifacts and enchantments will still 4/4 elementals on his turn?
Yup, even if done when Bello's ability is "false" at the time, it will still apply just enough to animate their stuff. With the Flash, it would be best to use the Downpour and as many of the copies as you can get to target all of the animated artifacts and enchantments.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Thanks!!
@@elproeps5299 Sure thing! Happy to help out, this stuff is weird.
Would the darksteel just do nothing to bello in every turn? Would this be the same with Kendriths transformation?
The Mutation result would be the same as Kenrith's Transformation. The only minor difference between the two is that Transformation also sets the enchanted creature's color to green and so it also is applying in L5 whereas the Mutation is L4, skips L5, L6, and L7. But again, the result would be basically the same relative to trying to stop the Bello, neither of them would. They would turn off the Bello ability, but it would be too late practically speaking and Bello will have already affected the As & Es for the Bello controller.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel so what happens in the bellos next turn? Will the enchantments and artifact still become a creature with the kendrith on bello?
@@drifle91 Yes, they'd still be animated into creatures each new Bello player's turn if Kenrith's Transformation were on the Bello. The ability would technically be turned off, lost, but from a practical standpoint due to this Layers rule it will still cause the As&Es to be animated.
If Bello is out and I mutate a creature onto one of my 4mv artifacts and then Bello goes away, what happens to my mutated creature? Does it matter what is the top part or does that not matter at all?
Depends on what the top part of the mutate stack is.
If the top is the artifact, then it stops being a creature, but has the abilities of the mutate creature. When Bello is replayed, it would go back to being a 4/4.
If the top is the creature, Bello stops applying to it immediatey (because it isn't an artifact). Removing Bello does nothing here.
The mutated permanent sticks around. It has all the properties of the top card alongside all the abilities of all permanents mutated under it. It's only a creature if the top part is a creature.
@@digitalworldsvr7881 Felix and Razzy got you covered on this one. The order does matter. Good question. I love Mutate for its crazy stuff.
What about the rule 613.8 that details dependency between effect ? Should the darksteel override the timestamp as it modify the existence of the bello effect ?
613.8. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.8a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
What is important here is 613.8a (b). The existence of the other (Darksteel) does not change what the first (Bello) ability applies to, and vice versa. Darksteel has less than 4 mana value and therefore is not affected by Bello, and Bello alone does not change what Darksteel does.
The other scenario cannot exist here, since the aura has to enchant Bello before Bello is on the field.
This was very hard to wrap my head around, but it makes sense after I read it 20 times, and applied a lot of logic to the statement xD
@@Manifibell Well it seems like you've got a good grasp of it.
@@Manifibell
The bigger thing is that the ability removing part of DM applies in a different layer (6: ability adding/removing effects) compared to Bello's animating effect (layer 4: type changing effects). Since they are in different layers, dependencies don't apply.
Song of the Dryads does stop Bello because it removes abilities directly from it's type changing effect so they will be in the same layer and therefore subject to dependencies.
Note "would change the text or existence of the first effect".
@@seandun7083 Yeah great catch. I didn't even consider that when I looked at it before.
Layers are so confusing but I also love it. It is very logical, and it is impressive that the game is this robust.
my play groups take was "that makes no fucking sense. it says it loses its abilities so it does."
@@DownBadBear Hey, if everyone is on the same page about it, then run it how you guys want to. It's a casual format, this video is mostly for general rules knowledge so that when you're not playing with a tight group of players, people you've never played with before, then there is a comprehensive rules by which the players do play by. But Rule 0 is always perfect.
Actually they don’t become 1/1 frogs cause in game checking the static ability . You respond to the storm frogs with chaos warp or beast within. The game checks and doesn’t see a static ability from Bello cause it is now removed. Since the objects have changed from creature/enchantment to just enchantment. The requirements of “creature” to enchant to become a frog aren’t met so the spell will resolve nothing becoming a frog. Making all enchantment and/or artifacts invalid targets. The spell has to resolve for it to work, not casting and choosing targets.
So if neither Bello nor Darksteel had wording that applied changes in layer 4, then Darksteel would "win" just as Song does? Layer 6 would cause a dependency between Bello and Darksteel, causing Darksteel to win?
Correct, if they both only had effects that applied in L6, then Bello would depend on the Mutation applying first and therefore the Bello would wait for the Mutation no mater what the Timestamp is.
Yeah. That's how it works if you enchant Khenra Charioteer with Stop Cold.
So when I remove Belo, let’s say during combat via swords to plowshares, the animated artifacts and enchantments are still 4/4s possibly attacking and crushing me?
I'd like to see an official ruling on this personally. People have done it to me and I assume they aren't creatures anymore as the effect is no longer on the field... But I also run heroic intervention, blossoming defense, rangers guile, etc due to this weakness.
@@janostozser1176 If Bello is actually removed from the BF (either Exiled, destroyed, returned to hand, Phased out), then those animated enchantments and artifacts would be shut off and no longer be creatures, and because of that, pulled out of Combat. They'd still be tapped, so if you replayed Bello in Main Phase 2, you couldn't tap them for mana or something like that.
Yes, please, make an episode dedicated to why layers are the way they are. This stuff hurts my brain.
@@ccarpenter1128 With the success of this video (even the Magic Circle Jerk subreddit made a post about it), I think I just might make it next week's episode.
Um, dependency?? Just like Urborgs effect dependens on Blood Moon, and thus is removed, so to would Bello depend on Darksteel, and be removed as well. Notably BEFORE layers, right?
Not sure what you mean by before Layers, the only thing I could think of that is "before" Layers would be Characteristic-Defining Abilities. The earliest Layer that the Mutation and Bello apply in and share is Layer 4 and in that layer neither of their effects depends on what the other does. Though there are other cards that do a similar thing to the Mutation that do make Bello depend on them that will shut off Bello's ability, just not with the Mutation.
dependencies don't happen "before" layers, they are used to sort effects within the same layer. Urborg and Blood Moon interaction exists because both effects work on layer 4, so one can depend on the other
As the comment above me said.
Dependencies do come into play if you use Song of the Dryad instead of Darksteel Mutation. It removes abilities as a part of it's type changing effect so it and Bello are both type changing effects (layer 4). Because it changes if Bello's ability will be applied, Bello is dependent on it and goes second.
Okay I’m confused (shocker!)
Bello isn’t effecting himself at all. The static ability is giving all non-equipment artifacts and non-aura enchantments the types, and if you target one of these with darksteel mutation then 100% it makes sense (and if this is the scenario then oops I’m stupid :3) but if you target Bello with the darksteel mutation, then the static ability is removed no?
Nah man, this stuff is complex. So, if you are putting the Mutation onto the Bello, yes, technically it will be turning off and removing the Bello Static Ability, but it will be doing so in a way that practically makes it so that it didn't turn it off. All of your As & Es will still be creatures and the reason for that is due to CR 613.6 that states that the Bello ability started to apply its ability in earlier Layers before the Mutation turned off the ability in a later Layer, and 613.6 makes it so that it will continue to apply.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel "If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process." So basically since they both operate on layers 4, 6, and 7, we'd look at timestamp so bello would take effect first on layer 4, but because of this ruling it'd also take effect on layers 6 and 7 despite the layer 6 of Darksteel Mutation taking the ability away? I think I understand it better now, if thats correct anyways
@@faelynOlayu Yup! That's exactly it. Bello was out first, so it has an earlier Timestamp and started to apply its L4 ability first, and then the Mutation came out and therefore has a later Timestamp making it apply afterwards in that same L4. Then we get to L6 and the Mutation overrides Bello but 613.6 says Bello will keep applying in L6 and still apply in L7. Well done. Despite getting a grasp of this specific interaction though, it will still be confusing as you encounter other Layers interactions in the future. They all have their own little intricacies to them, especially when you get into Dependencies and those REALLY get confusing. I actually have a very, very interesting Dependencies situation to cover in a future episode, might do it next week, that a buddy asked about. So, prepare your brain for that one.
Wouldn't making Bello lose their ability in the opponent's turn make him lose his ability, so it wouldn't apply in their controller's turn and thus the whole layer thing would not be needed? Oracle says: "If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control.". That "during your turn" part seems important, otherwise it would not be included there, I think.
It doesn't really matter when you start to apply the effect. Bello's ability doesn't get a new timestamp every turn and timestamps usually won't be relevant to removing his ability since either layers or dependencies will decide the order.
I think that part is just pointing out that something like Dress Down doesn't matter much when it's not your turn since the ability won't be applying anyways.
@@seandun7083 Yup, Sean got it. Even though it isn't "active" on not-you-turn, it still has the ability. The Time-Stamp is for when the Bello ETBed, not a new Time-Stamp at each start of your turn.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel But Bello's ability affects other permanents while the Darksteel Mutation affects Bello. Even if Bello's ability affects itself during the transformation, after it resolves, what makes it keep it's ability to turn other permanents into creatures?
@@ThisIsACommanderChannelAccording to Rule 613.8a, an effect is dependant on the other if "applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to". Doesn't this mean that before applying Bello's effect, Darksteel Mutation is applied, making Bello lose the ability and thus would not apply per 613.8c? ("remaining effects", the ability was removed so there's no remaining effect)
Edit: That seems to apply per Layer though 🤔
Still not convinced though. Aren't layers applied to see the current state of a permanent? Applying them to Bello ends up with "Bello has no abilities". So why should Bello affect other permanents in the middle of this process?
I know know that a boardwipe like wrath of god would kill Bello but not your animated stuff, but would about a damage based wipe like blasphemous act? What happens if you recast Bello afterwards?
So basically:
- Blasphemous Act deals damage to all creatures, including your own, including Bello and your animated stuff
- State based actions are checked. Bello has an amount of damage marked on him that's greater than his toughness, so he dies. At the same time, your animated stuff is in the same situation, but it also has indestructible so it doesn't die yet.
- Because there was a nonzero amount of state based actions to perform, state based actions are checked again. Your artifacts and enchantments still have 13 damage marked on them, but Bello is no longer around to animate them, so they stick around.
- After recasting Bello in the same turn, your artifacts and enchantments become animated again.
- State based actions are checked, the animated stuff still has 13 damage marked on it, but it's also indestructible again, so it still doesn't die.
Note that an opponent casting Dress Down at this point WOULD kill all your animated stuff. Because of the layers interaction in the video, Dress Down wouldn't stop Bello from animating your stuff. It also wouldn't stop Bello from giving your animated stuff indestructible. But it WILL make your animated stuff lose indestructible afterwards (due to timestamps). And since 13 damage is greater than 3 toughness, it all dies (you can avoid this by removing your own Bello in response).
@@Felixr2 Okay, so this is sort of like how in a previous episode he talked about how static abilities are just true or false, they're that "fast", the very second that they are creatures is faster than the sbas check and this also applies to their indestructibleness? If so, then I think I have a grasp of this.
@@TheAlcoholic83 Correct, it is because of the "speed" of Static Abilities. And Felix is right, they'd still be safe on initial damage and if you recast your Bello.
And of course a Sunfall would hit everything since it doesn't care about indestructible and exiles then all simultaneously so there won't be a point where they are around but Bello isn't.
My nose started bleeding around the five minute mark.
Ah, addition of the bloody nose ability, that applies in Layer 6.
"and yet Bello will keep its ability" Wrong. Bello loses his ability; the _effect_ of the ability continuously applies for the rest of the turn.
Holy crap, I will take a crack at it but I am not certain at all on the bonuses. 1 it does the land thing like the Song does but I see it dies say it loses abilities like the Mutation, but maybe it is for clarification this time. Not sure. 2.1 I want to say yes because there wouldn't be a 2.2 would this be a timestamp thing? 2.3 they would fall off? Man these are tough ones. This whole episode was tough.
For BQ1, it seems like you're leaning more towards saying it results similar to the Mutation and if so, then yup. For BQ3 (aka 2.2), this is a bit of a trick question. The specific wording on the Downpour makes it so that the enchanted object will lose it other types and becomes just a creature, if it was an artifact or enchantment then they are not now and because of that the Bello ability will no longer try to modify them. For BQ4 (aka 2.3), similarly to the last then on BQ3, the actual effect from the Downpour making them into a creature makes it so that it will keep itself on the object. For a similar example, if you were to Crew a Vehicle and then put the Downpour onto that Vehicle, then it would actually end up staying as a creature after you have ended your turn.
They need to fix the rules of magic. The layers should recheck themselves on status changes
@@RegimentJoker What do you mean by status changes?
i dont understand :/ new to 'ath, trying 2 learn d'rules.... some1 plz halp!!!!!!!1!!!1!! D:
🤯🤯🤯🤯
ive never played with layers.... if dsm goes on bello he is a 0/1 indestructible with no abilities. simple. may be wrong but it makes more sense than layers lol
Correct, he will be a 0/1 with Indestructible, but the confusing part is that while he will lose his abilities, he will have made your artifacts and enchantments into creatures and give them their 3 abilities.
I can promise you you use Layers all the time without realizing it, but I get that people don't like them because the only times they are mentioned is in the few cases where they don't give the intuitive answer.
This is to much for me. I still don't get it.
@@josephg279 Is there is specific part that is the cause of the confusion? I can attempt a metaphor, one that I plan to use in the future big episode on Layers in general.
Think of Layers like reading through a recipe for a meal, each page is a different step and you perform that step as you read them. You get to step 1 and add salt, then step 2 says to add 3ml of sugar and to edit page 4 to be blue food coloring rather than red food coloring, then page 3 says to change page 1's ingredient to be pepper rather than salt, and then finally on page 4 you add the food coloring that is blue now because you changed it on step 2. At page 3 you were told to change the ingredient to pepper but you never ended up adding pepper because you had already gone through that step.
Does that help out?
You are correct that Darksteel won't stop bello's ability
You are Not correct that the Dryad aura will. as the ability is applied once he resolves and hits the table or at the start of controlling players turn. this effects both enchantments as do to timestamp the ability applied for the turn.
And you did not clarify that On ALL following turns while enchanted he does lose his ability to either aura.
1. Both enchantments turn off bellos ability in additional turns do to Layer 1 effects of a spell are applied and timestamp order. the merge effect of the aura is applied at this step.
613.3. Within layers 2-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.7). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.8.)
2. this is the step where bellos ability would apply but do to dependency applied in Layer 1 this ability is lost.
Bello being attached with an aura is a dependent as his type is changed by the aura he is dependant upon the aura so it overrides your timestamp suggestion that bello keeps his ability if he is changed by darksteel.
613.2a. Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707, "Copying Objects") and changes to an object's characteristics determined by merging an object with a permanent (see rule 727, "Merging with Permanents"). "As . . . enters" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities generate copiable effects if they set power and toughness, even if they also define other characteristics.
check the oracle 7/26/2024 If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control.
@@twizffxi And that's the weird thing with the Song, it's not specifically an Effect that causes the object to lose it's abilities, all the Effect that Song is doing is changing the Type of the attached Object. Then that Effect, after it has happened, does result in that Object no longer having those previous abilities.
To follow up on this, check out CR 305.7 for more about what I said here.
None of the cards listed in this video are copy effects so we aren't doing anything on layer 1.
Dependencies only apply to effects that are on the same layer (same as timestamps).
Song of the Dryads does remove abilities on layer 4 as part of it's type changing effect rather than as a ability removing effect. Bello will be dependent on it so will wait until after it becomes a forest, at which point his ability is gone so it won't apply.
Darksteel Mutation removes abilities as part of an ability removing effect on layer 6. Because of this, we use Layers so Bello's ability is applied first, on layer 4.
Well, i dont agree with this. Does this just mean static abilities basically just can't be removed by "remove all abilities"?
This seems like broken game design.
I understand what you're saying, but it really just feels like "because Wizards says it does"
It's not all Static Abilities that still end up "working" through this. It all depends on the different effects that the ability does. If it is doing something to add, remove, or change something like Text, Type, or Color, then something that says it's removing the abilities will be 'too late'.
Magic is so stupid lmao
That's so disgusting for me, can't understand why a card which shouldn't have abilities is still applying its text into the layers/game in the first place. Like, why destroying it works, then? It applied its effect to the layers and now it's gone, but you said effects applied stay even after its source is stopped haha 😅
And I hate how Song of the Dryads works, but not Imprisoned in the Moon. 😂
I really doubt they intended to make this card immune to "lose its abilities" effects when designing it. 😅
When I first saw the card Bello, I actually did read it as a Triggered Ability, like "At the beginning of your Combat Phase, animate your stuff", but then it wasn't until reading through it again that my brain grasped that it was a Static Ability. It would have removed a lot of confusion doing it that way, but of course it also would have made it much weaker. Being a Static Ability, it allows for you to trigger a lot of creature ETB stuff.
Chess is childs play compared to Magic hahaha
No shade towards Chess, it's a killer game with an immense amount of strategy, tactics, and planning, but for sure, the complexity of Magic is 2nd to none. 27,000+ game components and each one is basically its own addendum to the already massive rules of the game. It's bonkers.
This commander is pretty stupid. it does everything a deck wants by simply existing all for just 3 mana. Power creeped to the max~!
@@sonork It does do card draw and aggression really well, but has massive drawbacks. It only cares about 4+ MV cards, so the deck can be very slow with a mana curve that leans high. If you're running mana rocks that are 4+ MV then using them for the ramp means you give up the card draw and vice versa, so you're splitting yourself up utility wise. Then the biggest drawback is that because the Bello is the enabler of the whole plan, the deck is easily shot down. You could do a full swing with 10+ animated things, but then one single Swords or Path on Bello and they just fogged your whole turn and shut off your card draw. The final big weakness to Bello is a very, very weak defense. You have almost no blockers to save yourself from people teaming up against you. Bello is one of the most 'glass cannon' style Commanders out there, very fragile. There were far more busted Commanders released this year.
God i hate cards like Bello, the rules are fine and makes sense but Wizards keeps making stupid fucking cards that fucks with their own rules
and worse, even if it didnt fuck with the rules, this cards promotes the use of ridiculously oppressive cards like Cyc Rift and Farewell
@@studentmoviesandvibes1671 I hear that, Commander has swung away from targeted removal and towards board wipes over the last couple of years, and that's not too fun for me personally to see so many wipes cast in a game over and over and over. Every turn for 6+ turns all the players are just rebuilding over and over and nobody is actually doing anything (until the combo player just wins).
This is completely unintuitive and none of my friends will believe me
Yup, I've had a couple of people that don't know me well try to accuse me of making it up or misunderstanding the game, specifically lately with my Bello deck. Luckily I've got a lot of people at that LGS that do know me and can vouch for me.
This is everything I hate about Magic.
In the defense of Layers, this game is very, very complex and this system that WotC has created, it actually does a good job of making most interactions between card be one that is intuitive. The fact that the 27,000+ different cards in Magic mostly work together in an obvious way is quite impressive and because of that, we don't think much about Layers all that often, in most situations in most games, but because of this, because of how smooth it goes most of the time, it makes it so that these crazy corner cases that rarely show up, it makes them stand out so much.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel yes, all those cards work intuitively IN SPITE OF not BECAUSE OF.
When you need a system to explain how something works, where you yourself and most in the comments said themselves, that hurts your head even when you understand how it works.
THAT'S NOT INTUITIVE.
Correlation =/= Causation
Most people who play magic probably have never heard of layers or even ones that do probably never think about it.
And yet they play magic.
@@Mr_Jumbles What's your point with all that rambling?
I agree that it is confusing and borderline frustrating sometimes, but what do you want to happen? Do you think it would've been easy to just come up with the perfect system from scratch? The fact that it is indeed solvable with a little bit more insight into the rules is actually astonishing and the reason why most of us watching this channel come here. Dont you think?
I would say the problem is that they come up too infrequently. Because of that the average, or even above average player, doesn't know them. Then, when it does come up, they either play it incorrectly, or have to take a break and look up the rules, which sucks.
Saying that layers are unintuitive because of this is like saying Gravity is unintuitive because time slows down when you are near a black hole.
Most of the time they are so intuitive that you don't need to know they exist, since they gone the answer that people expect. It's only in a few niche scenarios where they don't make sense.
I would also bring up the fact that we do need a system to explain when the interactions that have a clear intuitive answer and there aren't really any other systems that approach the combination of layers + dependencies + timestamps in regards to making most things work as expected.
One example that can help to explain why some of these interactions are the way they are is Gideon Blackblade + Dress Down.
Gideon has an ability where as long as it's your turn, he's a 4/4 creature.
We apply type changing before ability removing so that Gideon is a creature when Dress Down decides which permanents to affect.
We don't retroactively reverse abilities that have already been applied if they are later removed since that would create a lot where Gideon gains then loses the type creature as Dress Down starts to apply then stops.
If an ability is removed after part of it but not all of it is applied, we still apply the rest of it because otherwise Gideon would be a creature without a defined power and toughness.
So reading the card doesn't explain the card? This kind of interaction is so stupid I'd be tempted to just never play Magic again if people cared enough about this ruleset to make the game that insanely unituitive
@@likealaddertothesun In the defense of Layers, this game is very, very complex and this system that WotC has created, it actually does a good job of making most interactions between cards be one that is intuitive. The fact that the 27,000+ different cards in Magic mostly work together in an obvious way is quite impressive and because of that, we don't think much about Layers all that often, in most situations in most games, but because of this, because of how smooth it goes most of the time, it makes it so that these crazy corner cases that rarely show up, it makes them stand out so much.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel I understand that and it's something I appreciate about this 20+ year old game, but I can't be happy about the rules making a card as plainly and directly worded as Darksteel Mutation just not work the way it is stated. In a casual pod I'd imagine players just interpreting this interaction plainly, as reading the card explains the card, and not pulling up several paragraphs of rules text to explain that it doesn't actually work at all here. I know the rules are the rules, but in this case it just feels like we know the rules are bad here and should just rule zero it out in the sensible way.
I'm sorry but this is fucking stupid, if a card says "looses all abilities" it should actually remove them. How on earth is magic supposed to gain more players if THIS is what happens.
If you are sitting there, reading a card and the card not doing anything it says on the card it's a bad design.
For sure, it's not a very intuitive result. Any new player or even many experienced players that have been around for 5, 10, or even many more years wouldn't be able to figure this out without knowing exactly how the Layers System works. The CR is a dense, dense document with soooooo much packed into it, it's crazy to assume that even 5% of the player base has read through it, even crazy to think that 1% of players have. And that's why I make these videos, to try and help as much as I can. When Magic was originally created over 30 years ago, they never had any clue it would have grown to this level of complexity. So what we have today is a system with lots of updates over and over and over, rather than if they had designed the game fresh from the start.
I will add that it does remove the ability, it just doesn't stop it since it was already applied. Kudo will get +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs while under the effects of Dress Down.
@@seandun7083 Correct, the ability is eventually turned off from the Mutation, but in a way that the ability has already applied its effects and then still applied other aspects of its effect after it was turned off. Sadly, TH-cam caps us at the length of a video title and it's not really feasible to include all that in the title.
"Layers" is retconned rules-lawyering bullshit enforced by WotC sycophants. Stop treating the game like some intricately fine-tuned engine and play your cards as they stand, updated by the latest errata. Here is the simple, human-friendly rule that resolves all disputes. Enchantments override the cards they enchant, continuously, not in some fabricated hierarchical choreography. Bello is a creature whose ability to transform your artifacts into creatures each turn is overriden by Darksteel Mutation.
I'm sorry you feel that way. The rules, the CR, as provided by WotC provide us with a uniform way to play the game on a mechanical level. This allows for me to travel to any LGS, play with any group, and have an experience defined by those rules.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel More to the point, it's computerized for online implementation, requiring detailed tracking of "timestamped" past events that are no longer evident in the current state of play, along with recursive evaluation of complex layered states of spell interaction. None of this was necessary in the days of real-life human interaction, which was based solely on the evident state of the game at any point during gameplay.
@@QuicksilverSG I don't know man... Back before they added the Stack to the game, they had a system called the Batch and it was pretty dang wild. Back in the early days, most LGSs didn't even have anyone there that understood the Batch.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Batches were the 4th Edition version of the Stack, which attempted to collect Instant spell sequences into separate mini-stacks. The problem back then was that Interrupts (mana and counterspells) were supposed to resolve before Instants, which meant you couldn't play an Instant on top of an Interrupt. So you could stack up Instants in a batch, but as soon as you cast an Interrupt on the batch you had to resolve the batch before casting any more Instants on it. Got that? Neither did most players at the time.
Before that, in Revised/3rd Edition days, Instant spells within each gameplay phase were treated as occuring sequentially. So if you cast a Giant Growth on your Ornithopter, a subsequent Lightning Bolt wouldn't kill it, but a Counterspell could interrupt the Giant Growth. This was easy to understand, but as card design got more sophisticated, distinguishing between Instants and Interrupts became problematic. WotC eventually decided to eliminate that distinction, effectively promoting Instants to Interrupt status and consolodating everything (except damage and mana) on a single stack.
If you want to use the latest Errata, then I would recommend also looking at the latest rulings. Here's one for Bello:
"If an effect causes Bello to lose all abilities during your turn, its effect will still apply to non-Equipment artifacts and non-Aura enchantments you control."
No answer to the ending parts??? Get lost
Imprisoned in the Moon has the same result as Darksteel Mutation. It's ability removing part applies in layer 6 after Bello's has already applied in layer 4.
Amphibian Downpour actually removes all types other than creature when it turns them into frog creatures. Turns out they will just be 1/1 frogs that are no longer artifacts or enchantments.
Blinking Bello doesn't change this since dependencies mean that the Downpours' type changing effects happen before Bello's since they are on the same layer and change what Bello applies to.
Downpour does keep them creatures meaning it sticks around once no other effect is animating them.
Here's a ruling for Amphibious Downpour:
"Amphibian Downpour may enchant a permanent that is only temporarily a creature, such as a Vehicle. If this happens, Amphibian Downpour's effect causes the enchanted permanent to remain a 1/1 blue Frog creature even after the temporary effect making it a creature expires."
Layers is such bad mechanic
Magic is trash now😂