Top 10 Games with Critical First Turns
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- Tom, Zee, & Mike share their top 10 games with Critical First Turns!
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Suggestion: keep the title of the game somewhere on the screen while the guys are taking about it
Second this, I "see" (listen) to these at work on my sidescreen and don't always pay that much attention, so if I did ont catch what game they mentioned it would be nice to be able to see it on screen at all times.
All these years and Zee still coming with the games no one’s ever heard of 😂
Noone can call the BS choices then ;)
Mike is a great addition to the Dice Tower
People say this on every video and I'm starting to wonder how many TH-cam accounts Mike has
@@avisian8063 hey there, definitely not Mike here. I can vouch for this man, from his guest appearances on This Game is Broken, his stellar podcast with that dashing chap Dan Hughes called Sporadically Board, and he brings the sophistication that DT so desperately needed in every video he is in.
So Mike, you can just paypal me or Venmo me whenever you want for this promo if that's cool.
Tons of Mike walloping today... poor Mike.... at least he was validated in the end 😁
Zee your reaction to Tom and Mike interacting, is brilliant! It has the gambit of emotions from out loud laugh to sip of a good beverage to savor the moment. I salute you good sir!
hmm, i'd go with
10. On Tour
9. Peloponnes
8. Cooper Island
7. Furnace
6. Walking in Provence
5. Jump Drive/The City
4. The Crew
3. Shadowrun Crossfire
2. Isle of Skye
1. Kingdom Builder
oooh, yes, Shadowrun Crossfire is a good pick.
Bonus list! Do the expansions add or subtract from that first turn stress? Is Peloponnes worth it without expansion box?
@@windbane69 peloponnes just the base game is all you need. and i'd say all 10 of those maintain their angst with expansions (the ones that have them) :)
Crossfire is a great pick.
Furnace? Bummer. I was looking forward to that one.
Where does Zee get his endless stream of made-up games printed? Some of them almost look real.
I anticipated both Tom's #1 and the tone with which it would be delivered. 😄
Read this before I saw it, instantly knew it too!
I agree with Zee about Five Tribes - the key move is to be had about 2/3rds in. (sorry Mike)
Yes, Zee is basically right, except if there is a very useful Djinn (eg Kandisha, Ibus, Utug, Sibittis) or a massive-amount-point-making Djinn (eg Wilwit) to be had than it's definitely worth bidding a lot right from the start.
This was a great list: we got some interesting thought processes and fun discussions. Kudos to the person who came up with the idea!
I hope we can get more of these unconventional topics that make us look at games in different ways.
My contributions: top 10 games that require you to stick to a strategy, games that tempt you the most to switch strategies halfway, games that allow for the most creative strategies, games with interesting pivoting moments, games that fire up your irresponsible/obstinate side (like Tom's "well, we'll see about that!"), games that tought you the most about yourself, games that tell you the most about your fellow players, games that blew your mind, games you want to play in specific moods, or that put you in certain moods, games with the best table talk, games that make you think in interesting new ways, games that feel too much like work, games that are too easy/obvious, games that are most counterintuitive, games that are most intuitive, games that best allow different types of gamers to have fun together, games that can be most different depending on who you're playing with, games that work in the widest variety of situations (e.g. heavy and light, few and many players, serious and lighthearted), games that spark the most creativity or inspire you, games that are best at making you happy.
Kingdom Builder is a good choice, people. I've been playing that a lot on BGA lately.
Mike's domino joke was gold.
I think it fell flat.
Very much enjoyed the strategy debate that this list encouraged. Would you consider making more videos where you debate strategy?
Robo Rally. If you program your robot and in the middle of it you get pushed, you can be playing from behind the rest of the game.
Amazing list, and amazing idea for the list!
Gloomhaven has critical first turns. It's the only turn where you have perfect info of enemy layout before you start playing. You can position and pop off major moves/big damage in the first room. It's often worth using a loss card in the first turn if you can get an optimal use of it.
Tic-Tac-Toes expansion pack takes care of that first turn problem. ;)
When I first played Kanban, there were a lot of mechanics to take in and I couldnt wrap my head around scoring yet. As I was taking my first turn though, a few things started clicking in my head and I could figure what midgame would kinda be like. Tracing back to the turn I was taking, I realised I have probably already lost with the (highly inefficient!) action I was taking. Another game I think has an important first turn and wasnt mentioned yet is Clans of Caledonia. How far or close you put your starting meeples together may make or break your chance at settlement scoring. Paying too much to place those meeples could shoot you in the foot in the first few round too. Highly agree with the Catan pick though.
I'll also go with Power Grid. If you place your first city in a bad spot, you can be perpetually competing harder for subsequent cities compared to other players, making it near impossible to catch up.
Would love to see a series going through the top 50-100 games, ideal player count
Star Wars: Armada. Turn one, you deploy your ships, set your dials. If you have a large ship, you've now eliminated a good chunk of the battlefield from your possible positions, because you are going to be turning slowly and moving slowly. You set your dials, you've now determined your focus for the first half of the game. You made a mistake? You'll get to correct it. On turn 4. Out of 6. Because those first three turns? You already set the dials for them.
I certainly agree with Mike with The Crew. It isn’t always necessary to communicate on the first turn, but the pressure and potential ramifications for doing so can be huge!
I'd pick a few categories:
Games with drafting/selected setup where it's key to get synergies or good start locations - Agricola, Terra Mystica, Catan, 18xx
Games with huge snowballing, either economy ramping up or a coop where you can spiral down - Terra Mystica, Shadowrun Crossfire
Games with few turns and/or hard to correct course midgame - Food Chain, Game of Thrones
Aeon's End: The first card you buy determines the order of your deck for the rest of the game. Maybe it seems like a small detail, but it's crucial to think about this if you want to defeat the more difficult nemeses.
Absolutely agree on Wildlands Mike, it was the first game that sprang to mind for me.
You guys have plated an astounding number of games!
Played. Auto correct is annoying!
Some pretty solid picks there. I agree with the Crew, Catan and Small World.
When considering Set up Agricola is also quite important. Choosing the cards at the start really shapes how the play will progress.
I would also have considered Barrage though with that game it's more like the first round that counts. Where you place your infrastructure and how you spend your resources is critical.
It can be very hard to come back from if you made a mistake since your machinery can be locked up for quite some time...
Terraforming Mars - The corporation you choose as well as the patents you elect to purchase is very important. The preludes as well.
Good to see Dungeon Twister on this list, good pick, you're 100% right and I wouldn't have thought of it
Great list!
Catan for sure. First time I played it I didn’t realize why I lost so badly but it was all about the start of the game. Five tribes is sort of a first move important but if you are playing 2 player it’s not as crucial.
Other games if felt without a good first turn you are playing catch up the whole game would be:
Inis, Arboretum and Targi (slightly)
In Terra Mystica/Gaia Project picking a faction is extremely important. I'd definitely put these on the list.
Terra Mystica was the main one I thought of. Even on the first turn - if you build wrong depending on your faction, you absolutely can be screwed. You play Swarmlings and don't rush a Stronghold? You're done.
Has Zee done a video explaining the rules he learned for playing Dominoes? I would be interested in seeing that.
I have a group member that constantly picks 2 and 12 as first move in Catan AND 11s the subsequents turns. The scary thing is that he sometimes wins big time.
It's really too bad about the Food Chain Magnate experience Tom had. I've only played it once, with relatively experienced players, and they gave a brief rundown of the first turn and pointed out potential pitfalls. I certainly didn't win, but I had a good experience, and scoring was within a reasonable margin. I feel like when you play this kind of unforgiving game, if there is a disparity in experience part of the teaching needs to be pointing out the pitfalls or people will have bad experiences.
It's not just a crushing first game, it's always that first turn is always high pressure...
Love Food Chain Magnate. You know it's probably because he played against Jason that time.
I have played Food Chain Magnet 3 or 4 times and I find myself failing every turn kind of enjoying. I can think about a better structure and ways to win. And losing is really being outplayed, which I can appriciate. Not losing by a diceroll or something random.
Power grid i think sets up the board and where you are going to go the rest of the game along with what resource you are going to go after.
Watching this the second time was even more fun than the first time
The first game I thought of was access and allies. I haven't played Access now I specific but I can totally see that. Then Catan and I can totally see small world. Good pics.
I agree season is a very good choice
With setup included. Terraforming Mars with especially turmoil. But all the expansions. Corp choice with preludes, with colonies, knowing which event is first on turmoil. So powerful.
So glad Axis and Allies Pacific made this list. That was the first game that came to mind for me. If you screw up that first turn with Japan you really have a hard time from that point on.
Enjoyable! Would you consider making a top 10 of the best Big Box boardgames (i.e. boardgames with all expansions included in one box) or (please :)) a top 10 of the best dinosaur themed games - I have been noticing that you have been reviewing a lot of dinosaur games lately.
Raptor. If u pick polar opposite of the pther player and you get like 7 moves or so. It can be devestating for your opponent
I love the first turn puzzle of Kingdom Builder! I ended up going with KB rather than WK because I don't want it to be mitigated! Having to deal with the constrains is what makes KB so good.
The argument for Seasons applies even more to Res Arcana. Also, surprised Mike didn't have Stratego considering he was thinking about set up
I agree with mike about Catan. He just picked a bad example using the numbers. I would have focused on resource access with you settlement placements, and picking the right settlement to give those first resources.
First thing to come to mind for me was stratego, but the principle there applies to a lot of games.
Mike is right about 5 Tribes. If certain Jinn are available - or the Market is stacked with high value goods (for example) going first is often critical for a strong chance at victory.
I still enjoy these, butI can't wait till they can do these together at the table.
I think recently, there's something wrong with the voice. During this particular Top10, where Tom, Mike and Zee talk about their games, I have to maximize the volume to hear what they say, and this is reminded to me when the final music is played, where it's so loud, I should rush and turn the volume way down.
I was just about to say 'Tom, stand up!'
A few ideas for Top Ten shows: "Top 10 games played 10 times or more," or some other number (this could be best games or worst games); "Top 10 great games that I only played once"; "Top 10 games that are 5 to 10 years old," or the years could be specified; "Top 10 games I would give another chance"; "Top 10 games I didn't like after first playing, but I like now." Thank you for these lists--it helps my research a lot!
Any game you wouldn't be willing to play more than 10 times is not a good game.
Chinatown is back on print now, and really good.
100% agree with Food Chain Magnate and Spyfall. I knew it before you said it.
Similar to Axis amd Alloes Pacofoc the old American civil war game 'A House Divided' has a similar first turn situation for the Confederates. You can sneak a lightening win of the Union player doesnt stop you, but if you don't the Union get stronger and stronger and a CSA win becomes much harder.
Finally Tom gave Food Chain that deserved number one spot.
Lol.
Seasons was my first pick too. First game I thought of.
My first thought was 100% Food Chain Magnate
There's one definite game I can think of...
Playing Elder Sign solo (recommend Marie Lambeau, she breaks the game)...
But, you absolutely need to succeed early on. With limited resources, spells, weapons...you need to make very smart decisions and there is a much higher likelihood of failure than there is later on when the game is a breeze (if you're playing it right).
I'm with Zee in terms of 5 Tribes (lots of options early in the game) but I'm with Mike on Catan. I think the majority of the game of Catan is picking the locations at the start (even if you use the base set up pictured in the rule book).
*Mike says anything*
Tom: "huh"
I had a perfect storm in codenames where I won on the first turn!
Going into turmoil turn 1 with the birds in Root is actually a valid strategy.
Amerigo from Stefan Feld, definitely on this list.
Mine include terra Mystica/Gaia project, GoT and Twilight imperium. I share Tom’s feeling on FCM.
Food chain magnate is absolutely correct as number 1. I would have just the opposite reaction as tom though lol its one of 9 games I have rated a 10
I would definitely agree with Axis & Allies Pacific, the Japanese player's first turn is a real brain burner trying to work out how you can hit as much as you can. If you plan it very well and take a few risks you can essentially set yourself up for a win if you keep up on the offence and holding the Allies back.
I would also add other Axis & Allies games to this, as the first turn for a few of the different powers in a few of the games are quite pivotal and can make or break the whole game.
I believe Res Arcana could also be on the list of critical first turn games. But more so for the first round. In the setup choosing the right Mage to start with is extremely important to how the rest of the game will flow. The first round of the game and your opening hand is likely to determine your engine, your goal for the end game, and the strategy you take to get there.
I had a game recently where I saw my starting deck decided to go for a steal other peoples dragons from discard strategy but in my opening hand I didn't get any of the pieces I needed to make it work. I had to completely swap around my goal and build up to something else. All in the opening turn of the game. I won with a high Elan building engine to convert them to gold and win with Monuments.
Checked the Urban Dictionary. Of course the Dilisio blunder is there :P
I agree with root? but i believe the woodland alliance has the most crucial first turn. it's extremely important to place sympathisers in heavy traffic areas and to ensure that you can set up to revolt in turn 2 to get an early base out
Sometimes you can give a great Codenames clue, after your opponent covers up some of their words
I know this crowd could be low but what about a top 10 of game that you would/should/could or did play for hours? I think like 3+. (DnD style, civilization, or WoW) just to give some examples. I guess one could count a card came that one played for houses too.
Great idea for a list. Catan should have been waaaay higher on these list though. There aren't many other games where a bad opening can pretty much exclude you from taking meaningful game actions for the majority of the rest of the game. (And with no real way to resign or quicken the ending of the game, you're often just stuck playing with your phone while the other 3 or 4 players faff about until someone mercifully accumulates enough points.)
And even if, like Tom, you don't consider the placement of your initial settlement "the first turn", making a bad choice as to your first expansion can quickly result in you getting cut off due to the rule about settlements not being too close to each other.
A bad first turn in Catan (and the consequences thereof) are just so much more punishing than in a lot of the other games on any of today's lists. It's a wonder more people aren't turned off from board gaming as a result of Catan.
My sister always wins, we have houseruled the game on occasion making her place both settlements after everyone else, and she still wins.
I would not only agree with this but expand it to the first three turns because the game is usually all but determined by that point. If you aren't in first place or a close second by the end of everyone's turn three you've lost the game in a four player game. I've never played a four player game where this hasn't been the case. To your last point though I feel that for a lot of us, Catan opened up our minds to what board games were COULD be, so even if the game itself ultimately came down to who got the best three dice rolls first, the game masked that fact for a good while with the number of new and interesting choices that you could make, which is a concept that is absent from the traditional mass market North American games a lot of us grew up with.
yep!
Catan is the most obvious one for this list
I was thinking Axis and Allies before Tom mentioned it. I have never played Pacific, but the original is so crucial turn one. What Russia does dictates if Germany can win or not, dice rolls aside as it still has a luck component to it. I have figured out how Germany can conquer Great Britain turn one and only Russia can stop them. Needless to say I have played the game enough that I have learned the best strategies for each country for their opening and subsequent turns, for the best possible outcome. After that it comes down to dice rolls.
Other games with crucial turn one plays are Magic the Gathering. I am including mulligans as a turn one play here as they are so important to improving your odds of winning. I am speaking of course on a more competitive level as I play a lot of cEDH. More casual players will not find it as crucial to their strategy.
Zee should definitely try out the On Tour app if he hasn't already, it's a great way to play that game solo on the fly. 😄 Also the app has a nice feature where you can input a seed number that multiple people all play with so you can essentially all play the same exact game on the app by just using the same seed.
He did do a what's appening on it a while ago, I think he said it was functional + a good way to play, but could have used some pizzazz - i.e. tutorial, music (especially being a game about bands), etc.
@@LegoAssassin098 That's definitely true about the lack of music and sound. I can't speak to the tutorial, I knew how to play already when I got the app. (It's a pretty simple game rules-wise.)
Res Arcana. You're picking the 8(!) cards you're going to use for the entire game. That's hugely critical.
I can’t believe nobody mentioned Yugioh where your first turn has a high probability of being the ONLY turn.
Terra Mystica. Though technically part of setup, choosing an appropriate faction and starting dwelling locations is a pretty big deal.
I feel like Wingspan would be a good addition to the list. If you’re playing with people who know what they’re doing, you need to make the most of that first hand or you’ll be behind the whole time
The Babylon 5 ccg, it can be a long lasting game but the starting hand is key and if you mess up your openeing it will hurt.
This was a fun one. How about top ten games where player seating order matters?
Easily Puerto Rico. It's why I never enjoyed the game. Even people who actually like it acknowledge that where you sit determines most of your strategy.
@@phantomcyrano wow... I've never considered the sitting order before... We play that game a lot 😂 I might have to consider it next time.
Summoner Wars feels like it should be on here, especially given that the first player has fewer options on their first turn. Getting an early kill or killing off one of your own units can be critical for gathering magic...and, of course, missing an early attack can leave you vulnerable. Also, for Codex, not so much in regards to the first play but the first cards you teach will really shape much of your game by moving you toward one of your specs.
Cooper Island. The whole game is kinda tight and if you don't push from the start you're pretty much out.
To be fair and also throwing in some theory crafting here the turn 1 Eyrie turmoil strategy in Root can be viable :D
If you have the right cards you choose the charismatic leader to recruit 3 times and BAM 12 Birds on the map then you go to turmoil. You lose the leader until the next "election cycle" and 1 potential point but that is it.
Mike, your a good sport.
I knew Tom would say Food Chain Magnate as his #1.
Game Of Thrones... If you mess up your first turn, you simply wait out 4+ hours of the game being powerless or even completely eliminated.
I was curious if this was going to be on anyone's list. ( i assumed it wouldn't be because they never talk about it). It is one of my all time favorite games and this is very accurate. Each turn is so important with only 10 turns and getting good start is critical.
You can recover if the game goes long and you're not Lannister, but yeah, it deserves to be on this list.
@@mnBroncos1 Indeed, they never talk about it :) I like GoT too even though it is very punishing.
@@windbane69 Interesting. I'd say everyone can recover EXCEPT Lannister because they can be blown away by Greyjoy in turn one (though that situation has been improved in the 2nd edition).
Nice pick Zee. Fury of Dracula would have been my choice.
Barrage, I screwed myself turn 1 and never was able to do anything there after
Great pick. It’s very easy to have a bad first turn, and then it’s basically game over. Great game though
Before watching the video, I'm naming One Night Ultimate Werewolf.
The first move in Five Tribes is probably the least important, except if you get 4 of a kind on the 15. Lol.
Looks like Mike is the voice of the people on this one
Most engine builders, things like Res Arcana and Terraforming Mars and Wingspan, belong on the list as well.
Clans of Caledonia, Gaia Project and The Gallerist.
Catan was the 1st to come to my mind.
Hive probably could've made this list. Blood Rage too.
Blood rage I'd disagree.
Most first turns I've seen are upgrades, quests or basically stalling.
I’m totally with Zee on Five Tribes. I think it’s completely the opposite. I would put this game on the top 10 least critical first turns.
And totally agree with nr.1 of people’s choice. Cmon, how you Tom and Zee didn’t put Catan!!? The first turn (set up) is so crucial that sometimes even before you put your first houses you already know that will be very difficult to win.
Maybe because some of us don’t consider “set up” to be the first turn. The first turn is the first turn.
Dominoes!! Zee's spot on with those comments. Here in Puerto Rico we mostly play double six dominoes (and by mostly i mean over 99.9% of times any other type is very rare ... i've seen and played couple of double 9 games, but is very uncommon almost a novelty 😜). I would even say if It's not our national game, its very close to be 🤣🤣
I Love dominoes. There's many games I like. I'm also a competitive chess player and enjoy playing multiple blitz rounds with friends. but even then with the right people, I'd rather get those dominoes and some cold beers and play for hours 🍺🙂
Surprised even the people did not pick Blood Rage, I rank it high on this list for the same reason as Seasons
The Game of Life - do you pick the college track or regular job track?
Shazam sounds like a retheme of Quo Vadis with special cards.