This is my favorite top 10 list yet from The Dice Tower. I think the big focus on philosophy of design and all three really explaining in depth shows so much passion and unique perspectives.
My 2 year old loves watching the top 10’s with me and she is always very concerned that Mike is the only one not wearing a hat in these videos- direct quote from my lunch table: “Zee has a hat, Tom Vasel has a hat, Mike doesn’t have a hat…” And I’m just sitting there amused that Tom is always referred to by his first and last name haha! Loved this list! Keep up the awesome work!
Think we need to narrow Mike down to 10 modern classics. A definitive list from the 3 of you of the only 10 games that you think deserve the title of modern classic would be a great video 🙂
One of the biggest surprises for me came from a “make a game small and still really good” and “distilling a mechanism” is Colt Super Express. What a 💎.
Like others, this is my favorite list I've seen from y'all. It's not as "energetic" as others because you can't poke fun at each other since it's such a thinky topic but overall really enlightening discussion.
I completely agree that MTG is essential for aspiring game designers. There is just so much material to learn from; the core resource mechanisms, the color pie system, the plethora of keywords and ways to integrate different functions into the game. My top10 would also definitely include lords of waterdeep and clank legacy, but I would try to squeeze in codenames and vindication as well.
I mean, if one wants to learn how to make worker placement games, Lords of Waterdeep is the perfect place to start looking at it and the way resources can be basically anything if you give them meaning, reminds me of Everdell, where it is not a log, it is a twig, because the creatures are small enough that a twig is big enough for them.
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs to that. They not only addressed the handclogging problem of lands by making all cards multiuse(playable as lands or normal use like spells, monsters etc), they also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers
Thumb up for Zee's: Developers should be designers, and designers should be developers. It can help a lot if you consider the project as a whole when you work on the design, even production.
I was confused by that. I thought the the terms were synonymous. Should he have said publisher? Or are there 3? Which one is the original person, designer or developer.
I really like the different choices. Great list. Just as a comment, Tom mentioned Sid Mier´s Civ. However, Sid Mier himself has said that boardgames were the inspiration to most of his games. Specifically, he mentioned Francis Tresham games, he give him credit for "civilization games" and "tech tree", and specifically gives an example that Sid´s Railroad Tycoon is inpired by Francis raild system (18xxs). :)
In a meta consideration, a lot of FLGSs wouldn't exist without MtG/GamesWorkshop/D&D to prop up sales, so it really has subsidized the hobby as it's grown and helped ensure there is a space to explore board games in general.
One thing that is important about Magic is its precision in rules text. You learn how to read (and thus write) clear rules text by playing Magic, since almost every card has some text that explains its own rules. As a company, they have invested a lot to ensure that text is a good balance of clear and readable, even to do some legitimately insane things, like taking another person's turn for them.
Tikal was a gateway for me, it certainly holds up and wasn’t based on one simple idea. It doesn’t feel dated at all, except the art because of course it’s an older game. It’s a classic that hasn’t ever been killed by anything else, at all. It didn’t have the major hype of recent games, but we’ve all spent money on the cult of new hyped games and played them once then regretted the purchase.
1:28:27 I have been playing for a few years now, own aprox. ~70 games from silly child ones to more heavy ones like Terra Mystica, Bonfire and Stronghold but I have never played Catan, Agricola, Dominion nor MtG. Not sure why, I just didn't had a chance and I feel I haven't miss much so there is no pressure to catch up with those titles.
Lords Of Waterdeep is my go to game for an equally smooth & intense, visually as well as thematically satisfying gaming experience in 60 minutes. each game is a bit different and memorable. especially with the Skullport expansion adding the corruption system (not so the Undermountain, which doesn't add any depth/mechanic). huge upgrade to the basic game
Fantastic! Been waiting for this since it was announced. As a dork with a bunch of ideas, blank cards and Sharpies along w/a massive dose of Imposter Syndrome, I need all the help I can get.
I think that Magic: the Gathering should be played to learn what can be done with design space. To really understand that you would need to play a core set (but a version after the power 9 were removed) that doesn't utilise anything beyond the core design space. And then play several sets that really explore the extra design space. Jumping directly in to a version of the game that is using the extra design space means that you will most likely overlook what was added to the game and just how much space the simple starting design actually left to explore. Did all of those explorations result in good play experiences? No. But, I think, that most did. And they have been adding to it for nearly 30 years! They did add a pseudo colour for colourless mana in one cycle. As far as I know it didn't stick around. I think that chess gets overlooked as a very good example of complexity and depth not being the same thing. But then you really need to play a lot of chess to grok the depth so it probably isn't a good choice for this list.
And even those additions that don't "work out perfectly" actually do, because the design of the formats accounts for that. Every set has new mechanics that have a decreasing level of impact x permanence, which allows designers to keep it fresh without breaking the game. These new mechanics are: - vital within that set (for the Limited format), - usually impactful within Standard (the format that only runs recent sets), - rarely relevant within Modern (the format that runs sets from 2003 onwards), - once in a blue moon ripple into the Eternal formats (that run every set since Alpha). And usually, when a mechanic does "work out perfectly", it becomes "evergreen", meaning it's now set-agnostic and can show up anywhere. So the core gameplay evolves very slowly and carefully as a result of a very active and bubbling surface of mechanics that come and go with every set.
@@voltcorp I did not use the phrase that you put in quotation marks. Please don't put words in to my mouth. The P word in particular has no place in a discussion about game design. It is the ultimate in objective words, and games are about having fun... which is entirely subjective. And if you feel the need to defend everything that M:TG has done, I present to you: Stasis lock. The definition of a negative play. experience. They did make mistakes along the way, but that doesn't make it worse as a game to learn from.
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs(especially Wixoss) and the new Digimon TCG to the MtG example While Magic's decades-worth of combo materials, keywords, piggybacking, and other lessons are great, Duel Masters and its followers addressed the handclogging issue of lands by making all cards playable as resource. They also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers. Clever product design The new Digimon TCG, on the other hand, has a Patchwork-like resource system where the pricier the cards you pay, the more resources you give your opponent in the next turn Also, Hex, Dodo, Bug, and many other modern abstracts might illustrate depth despite simplicity even better than chess
what a fun list! Still learning about mechanisms here, so I really loved hearing about them in some of these well known games I've played, like yea, I DO know that mechanism
Love Letter has to be on this list. It's an example of a near perfect system. About the only edge case where the mechanics break down is when your opponent(s) play the 4 card and your only play is a 1 card, so you do nothing but discard it. Even then, technically you target yourself and name a card you don't have.
@@dago6410 It oddly is sort of a sub genre. Sheets of cards are often printed 18 cards to a sheet which is where the number comes from. The company ButtonShy specializes in these small games and has a massive library at this point.
@@3ddevine Oh, makes sense! The only one I know is tides of time (which would be a really fun game had it had like a 100+ cards and you chose X for each game :P in my opinion, and had like 5 replays in my experience before being nothing interesting any more) ;p
App based games are nice to streamline physcical components. We use apps for player turn order in Aeon's End as shuffling 6 cards is easy to tell where the cards are. Press a button and the job is done. It made playing Gloomhaven less of chore along with preserving components. It adds atmosphere for games like ISS Vanguard and Tainted Grail. You can play these games without apps, but the apps assist in a nice way. As for other games such as Return to Dark Tower, Beyond Humanity: Colonies, or Mansions of Madness 2nd E. they would be bloated with additional rules, and physical components to deal with their design mechanics. The downside to products that use apps is if you can't use the device (like low battery).
Thanks for a great show! For this list I would probably put Stone Age, Dominion, For sale, Roborally, Magic, D&D, El Grande, Citadels, Euphrates & Tigris and Catan in the list, with Lords of waterdeep as an alternative for Stone Age and Deus as an honourable mention.
My issue with Chronicles of Crime, which I've yet to play, is that it seems like the whole game could just be an app. What do the physical components bring to the experience compared to similar games that already exist completely as app only games? My best guess is that the physical components facilitate playing the game cooperatively, where syncing up the communal game interface just doesn't work smoothly over multiple screens or one big one. Otherwise there is the novelty/toy factor to it. I mean, I guess you can argue that's why people like to play physical games in general, even though you could play them on board game arena or something. Until I play it I just won't know, but I wish there was something about the physicality of the game that stood out to me as being integral to the experience.
I'm not sure if I would agree with you - what I feel about Chronicles of Crime is that it honestly feels like an interface for a point and click style adventure but one that kind of combines smoothing out the game play with note taking. I don't think it could just be an app because I feel like the way that you place suspects in locations and draw up a list of pieces of evidence makes the whole experience more intuitive. I get where your concerns are coming from, an I think I can see some people having those after playing the game, but I'd not be one of them. I would argue that there is a question of value in the supplemental cases as £4 for maybe 30-60mins of play feels expensive when you can get complete apps for less than that, but that's more of a business issue than a design one
It’s by FAR the most overrated game I’ve seen hyped. It’s so boring you think you’re doing something wrong or missing something. If it was all an app it would be found out instantly. This one is all style over substance and doesn’t nearly scratch the Clue itch.
Tom's insistence that action points are a dated mechanism is as bizarre as always. Pandemic Legacy, Through the Ages, Pax Pamir 2nd edition, Sleeping Gods, Trickerion, etc. all feature action point mechanics and are pretty popular. No matter the mechanic very few reprints of 23 year old games are going to sell gang busters, because the market is obsessed with new games.
I think Obsession would be a great game to play because of the sheer number of mechanics involved in the game And making them all work with strong theme in a cohesive manner. It's a brilliant design in my opinion. Great video!
Mike . . . played a fun game tonight, watching this video: Take a drink of your favorite “distillation” every time Mike uses the word “distillation”. Thanks Mike! 🍺🤓👍🏼
Ack, I love deck-builders like Ascension, but not a fan of Dominion. My husband figured out how to mill the deck during our second play and though that card doesn't have to be included into every game, I still feel like Ascension is way more interesting, if only because there are more options right out the gate in card types without having to purchase expansions.
There actually is a VERY good speech by marc rosewater about 25 years of Magic the Gathering and thoughts that went into the game design over all the years. It is extremely interesting from a game design standpoint.
Working on making a game now and I can say Can't Stop was a big inspiration to me. I also recommend two books: Sid Sackson's Gamut of Games and Dice Games Properly Explained by Reiner Knizia.
I agree with the originality of Pandemic, but I would go with Defenders of the Realm, as it fixed the issues I had with Pandemic (e.g., being too puzzle-y/predictable). So I think there's a lot more to learn from it.
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs(especially Wixoss) and the new Digimon TCG to the MtG example While Magic's decades-worth of combo materials, keywords, piggybacking, and other lessons are great, Duel Masters and its followers addressed the handclogging issue of lands by making all cards playable as resource. They also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers. Clever product design The new Digimon TCG, on the other hand, has a Patchwork-like resource system where the pricier the cards you pay, the more resources you give your opponent in the next turn
That's a throwback to a CrowdSurfing episode where they featured FurPal Kickstarter. It's a sound effect (some animal saying "FurPal") from the video of that campaign.
Mike never over uses words or phrases. Repetition is comedy. I'm not sure that D&D would be my first choice for an RPG to teach the benefits of an RPG. "There wasn't much mess." 🤣 👌 I think that Dominion should be played to learn about deck building. And then almost any other deck builder should be played to learn that you can actually do something with the mechanism.
Yeah, I think DnD is showing the creakiness in the design, and a lot of things I outright despise in games like Skyrim (levelling up, hit points, random encounters, encumbrance) are things that DnD introduced in to the wider designer lexicon. In terms of playing an RPG, I'd probably steer someone towards an experienced GM with a more cinematic system like Genesys, or the Storyteller System if they wanted something a bit more tightly defined but still reasonably flexible
I'm curious about the people's choice - it seems like this would be maybe the list with the widest range of titles, and possibly the winning game having a relatively smaller proportion of the vote, compared to say the voting for something like Top 10 roll and writes or Top 10 drafting games. Definitely enjoyed the discussion, but the selections felt a bit like a Rorschach Test - the selections said as much about the panel as they did about the games themselves, and I feel like if a designer had a particular theme or mechanism in mind, they'd be better off starting with a top 10 of games in those areas so they could see what was out there already, and get a sense of what they felt worked and felt that didn't. It to me was more of an interesting video than a useful one (partly because the topic was too broad)
Wasn't the idea here basically to counter the "designers" on Kickstarter that indicate their game "makes gaming fun!" But, their game is just a Monopoly clone.
@@VaultBoy13 Not really, otherwise it would have concentrated more on the gateway titles. This was trying to be a bit of a primer for ones to get 'serious' game designers inspired
This myth about race for the galaxy being hard to pick up needs to end, and anyone teaching it badly should just improve how to teach it. I've successfully taught it several times in under 10m and the iconography wasn't even a big deal (I would clear questions along the plays). And I've taught it to very casual players with the same success. ...unlike how I was taught the game, which took me several sessions to really grasp what I was doing due to several misconceptions about the 'flow' of the game. It pains me to see such a great game being slowly phased out due to this myth.
Although Modern Art showcases more kinds of auction, I'd argue that not only would For Sale be purer(since Modern Art also has majority control, stock ownership, and set collection), it also showcases how the nuances of one part can enrich another(in this case bidding on houses whose values depend on how you use them, as well as what other players' decisions would be)
Tbf Modern Art showcases more kinds of auction. Although I'd agree that not only For Sale would be purer(since Modern Art also has majority control, stock ownership, and set collection), it also showcases how the nuances of one part can enrich another(in this case bidding on houses whose values depend on how you use them, as well as what other players' decisions would be)
I have to say, I still dont get why people credit Pandemic so much for Cooperative board games. Cooperative board games were my favorite type of games before Pandemic and I have never enjoyed Pandemic. With that said. A short list of games Id put down for this list would include... Abstract: Khet Real Time: Project Elite/Captain Sonar Cooperative: pick your dungeon crawler of choice (Id pick Imperial Assault which also has a good app) Asymmetric: Root/Unmatched Miniature Game (A category I think is actually very beneficial for board gaming): X-Wing 2.0 Push Your Luck: Heat Trick Taking: The Crew Deck Building: Trains (While Dominion is a great choice, I think the addition of the board in Trains helps show how to adapt that idea into other games)
I apologize, but the fact is that Pandemic made the genre popular. Before that, there was Shadows over Camelot and Lord of the Rings, and that's about it.
@thedicetower Now I will also add, I had no idea Pandemic was as old as it is. I just looked it up and saw the 2008 tag on it. I really hadn't noticed this game on the shelves until around 2018. That is something to note. Maybe it is worth crediting as the one to push the cooperative genre forward, but is it still the game we should still be talking about to this day as the go to cooperative game to learn from? I think so many other cooperative games have out done what the Pandemic System is capable of at this point.
Still wrong then on the list. The historic fact that Pandemic made the genre popular is irrelevant for up and coming designers today. They should rather play the best/most comprehensive implementation of the coop genre existing today (that might still be Pandemic but the rationale is different)
I LOVE Godzilla Tokyo Clash. Whenever I've brought it out for players that like enjoy game design, they always comment on the cool decisions the designers made.
Great list. One thing I think is missing is a solo game or focus on considering a solo experience. Scythe and Arkham Horror LCG can both fit, but the solo/autotoma experience was not pointed out in either.
Tom's number 5, probably the best written rule book of the bunch. Board games and designers could learn from that. Boardgamers buy multiple games with horrible rulebooks, RPG'ers will spend one day at a convention standing in line for a new well-written rule book.
My biggest pet peeve for game designers is, whatever the game or the mechanisms. DO NOT teach the game to your playtesters. . . let them learn it from the manual. That way you can make sure you fix vagueness or contradictions before the game is actually released. . .I can't tell you how many games I have played that I can say, with certainty, that this was not done correctly.
D&D is like Catan. Opens doors but if you think it is a good RPG ruleswise/designwise you have not played enough RPGs... D&D Beyond, the online shows, playing online.. apps, fan community/homebrew and online activity etc mightbe a great inspiration though.
Has anyone made or found some variant rules to streamline Godzilla like Zee said it could do with? I looked at BGG, but it's pretty much just people creating new characters.
It's funny, despite enjoying Pandemic in the past and playing it a fair amount, I'm actually pretty mid on the game. It's way too easy for the game to turn into a "one player controls everything" scenario, or everyone optimizes your turn or someone else's turn. Sometimes the latter can be a good thing, as up to a certain point it's just playing collaboratively, but after said point it's just like "why don't you play my character for me and I'll just go do x instead?" And I'm pretty sure I'm the kind of person that tends towards the controlling, so I try to be very aware of that. The shuffling the cities back on top of the deck is also a double-edged sword; it's thematically genius, but it also makes the game really easy if you can get your team on it. Knowing exactly what cities are possible candidates for new outbreaks means you can prioritize treating certain areas, and can even make it so there is no threat of an outbreak for a long time. I dunno, maybe that's just a result of my desire to try and optimize my play patterns when possible?
@@EfrainRiveraJunior Well- I think there are better games for learning about luck mitigation. In Battletech you can influence the to-hit rolls, but not the hit table, cluster table, critical chance, critical table, piloting, heat or consciousness rolls.
@@koalabrownie - Yes, you can influence all that. It's complicated, but you can. Either way, I haven't played any game that does this better. Feel free to share alternate titles. That's the beauty of these lists. We can learn from each other.
@@EfrainRiveraJunior I don't think you can influence it with the ease you're suggesting. I can't for example choose to aim for the left or right side of the mech if you've done damage there. You can hope to maneuver onto the side table, but even then it only shifts it a few percentage points. Not nearly enough. If you're talking targeting computers then that's special case equipment. Federation Commander does the things I like about Battletech better, namely maneuvering. It also has much more player agency. It's SFB without all the bloat.
A deep critical analysis of certain non hobby games (chess, go, backgammon, poker, bridge) is also essential. Likewise Blackjack is even more distilled push your luck than can’t stop.
The comment on Cosmic Encounter is why I like Illuminati so much. All the players can be involved in the important steps of all other players' turn so that, even if the VPP are not balanced, presuming the players choose to analyze the VPP properly, there will be no run away element. This is even more so than Cosmic Encounter.
One game I would add is CoraQuest. It is not known as a deep game, but how simple it is and easy to teach. Even kids 6 years old can play with adults, and 8 year old kids can play by themselves. Some games go for huge boxes, a thousand component and 100+ page rule books. But there is something about breaking the game down to the bare basics, so small and so simple that even young kids can play, while still deep enough that the adults can still have a good time. In fact I think for new boardgame designers, they should aim to make simpler games first. K.I.S.S.
Scythe deserves to be in the list for world building but also as a masterclass in board design. Every single rule of the game is somehow represented on the game and player boards. And with all that content, they still managed to throw in Easter eggs.
Excellent video! But when Tom said that no game tried to emulate Powergrid, don´t you think Scoville did it? With the alternate player order every fase, and the auction at the beginning of every round?
On Tikal: I finally played it for the 1st time about a year ago and I found the game to be utterly brilliant. I was super excited to get the new printing with the resin pieces.
I would love to buy the resin pieces to upgrade the original. It’s a great 2 player as well, a game I still think about strategies for when I’m falling asleep.
I think I might have taken the opposite of Mike's approach :D My assumption: an aspiring designer who is willing to try games from such a list is familiar with the hobby and has seen a lot (most?) modern boardgame mechanisms in action. So my list would be: here are 10 games with familiar mechanisms that put a really interesting mayor twist on them. AKA here are some ideas how one can take familiar things and make them unique, or here are some example for thinking outside of the box. E.g. worker placement - raiders of the north sea (the place one down, pick one up approach, which adds quite a few nuances to the system, also workers are "shared" etc.).
Yeah, Mike’s list seems to be designed for someone who hasn’t played board games but wants to design a game and not someone who enjoys board games and wants to try to design their own.
The different approaches to this list is why I really enjoy multiple reviewers in your videos.
Now make a top 10 for rulebook writers.
Split it into their top 5 best and 5 worst, things to do and things to avoid
Has this happened yet?
Artemis Project, Pandemic,
Moonshine Empire (version 02)
GMT games, most of there games really have good rulebooks.
This is my favorite top 10 list yet from The Dice Tower. I think the big focus on philosophy of design and all three really explaining in depth shows so much passion and unique perspectives.
My 2 year old loves watching the top 10’s with me and she is always very concerned that Mike is the only one not wearing a hat in these videos- direct quote from my lunch table: “Zee has a hat, Tom Vasel has a hat, Mike doesn’t have a hat…” And I’m just sitting there amused that Tom is always referred to by his first and last name haha!
Loved this list! Keep up the awesome work!
#getmikeahat
This was a great Top 10. As a designer I found the reasoning behind everyone's picks really fascinating. Awesome job all around!
Zee's reason and description of why he picked Scythe was very intelligent. The way he told it was excellent.
Think we need to narrow Mike down to 10 modern classics. A definitive list from the 3 of you of the only 10 games that you think deserve the title of modern classic would be a great video 🙂
One of the biggest surprises for me came from a “make a game small and still really good” and “distilling a mechanism” is Colt Super Express. What a 💎.
Like others, this is my favorite list I've seen from y'all. It's not as "energetic" as others because you can't poke fun at each other since it's such a thinky topic but overall really enlightening discussion.
I enjoyed this video immensely. Zee’s approach and thoughtfulness was most appreciated. Great one!
I completely agree that MTG is essential for aspiring game designers. There is just so much material to learn from; the core resource mechanisms, the color pie system, the plethora of keywords and ways to integrate different functions into the game.
My top10 would also definitely include lords of waterdeep and clank legacy, but I would try to squeeze in codenames and vindication as well.
I mean, if one wants to learn how to make worker placement games, Lords of Waterdeep is the perfect place to start looking at it and the way resources can be basically anything if you give them meaning, reminds me of Everdell, where it is not a log, it is a twig, because the creatures are small enough that a twig is big enough for them.
Oof. You hate designers if you're recommending they play Vindication. ;)
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs to that. They not only addressed the handclogging problem of lands by making all cards multiuse(playable as lands or normal use like spells, monsters etc), they also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers
Thumb up for Zee's: Developers should be designers, and designers should be developers. It can help a lot if you consider the project as a whole when you work on the design, even production.
I was confused by that. I thought the the terms were synonymous. Should he have said publisher? Or are there 3? Which one is the original person, designer or developer.
I really like the different choices. Great list. Just as a comment, Tom mentioned Sid Mier´s Civ. However, Sid Mier himself has said that boardgames were the inspiration to most of his games. Specifically, he mentioned Francis Tresham games, he give him credit for "civilization games" and "tech tree", and specifically gives an example that Sid´s Railroad Tycoon is inpired by Francis raild system (18xxs). :)
Funny sequence where Mike picks the Crew (which Tom loves), Zee picks Scythe (which Mike loves), and Tom picks Dvonn (which Zee loves).
I believe Tom likes Dvonn more than Zee.
In a meta consideration, a lot of FLGSs wouldn't exist without MtG/GamesWorkshop/D&D to prop up sales, so it really has subsidized the hobby as it's grown and helped ensure there is a space to explore board games in general.
Gloomhaven jaws of the lion in regards to designing your game to be accessible to newcomers and guiding them into heavy rules and concepts.
One thing that is important about Magic is its precision in rules text. You learn how to read (and thus write) clear rules text by playing Magic, since almost every card has some text that explains its own rules. As a company, they have invested a lot to ensure that text is a good balance of clear and readable, even to do some legitimately insane things, like taking another person's turn for them.
By far my favorite contribution by Zee. His thoughts were very insightful.
Tikal was a gateway for me, it certainly holds up and wasn’t based on one simple idea. It doesn’t feel dated at all, except the art because of course it’s an older game. It’s a classic that hasn’t ever been killed by anything else, at all. It didn’t have the major hype of recent games, but we’ve all spent money on the cult of new hyped games and played them once then regretted the purchase.
1:28:27 I have been playing for a few years now, own aprox. ~70 games from silly child ones to more heavy ones like Terra Mystica, Bonfire and Stronghold but I have never played Catan, Agricola, Dominion nor MtG. Not sure why, I just didn't had a chance and I feel I haven't miss much so there is no pressure to catch up with those titles.
Looking forward to the top 100 from the a-team!!!
Lords Of Waterdeep is my go to game for an equally smooth & intense, visually as well as thematically satisfying gaming experience in 60 minutes. each game is a bit different and memorable. especially with the Skullport expansion adding the corruption system (not so the Undermountain, which doesn't add any depth/mechanic). huge upgrade to the basic game
Totally agree
Fantastic! Been waiting for this since it was announced. As a dork with a bunch of ideas, blank cards and Sharpies along w/a massive dose of Imposter Syndrome, I need all the help I can get.
Oh wow. I relate to this comment so much it actually kinda hurts.
@@Groovestonenz We'll share the pain together!
I really enjoy your top 10s, and this one was among the most interesting. Great picks!
I think that Magic: the Gathering should be played to learn what can be done with design space. To really understand that you would need to play a core set (but a version after the power 9 were removed) that doesn't utilise anything beyond the core design space. And then play several sets that really explore the extra design space. Jumping directly in to a version of the game that is using the extra design space means that you will most likely overlook what was added to the game and just how much space the simple starting design actually left to explore. Did all of those explorations result in good play experiences? No. But, I think, that most did. And they have been adding to it for nearly 30 years!
They did add a pseudo colour for colourless mana in one cycle. As far as I know it didn't stick around.
I think that chess gets overlooked as a very good example of complexity and depth not being the same thing. But then you really need to play a lot of chess to grok the depth so it probably isn't a good choice for this list.
And even those additions that don't "work out perfectly" actually do, because the design of the formats accounts for that. Every set has new mechanics that have a decreasing level of impact x permanence, which allows designers to keep it fresh without breaking the game. These new mechanics are:
- vital within that set (for the Limited format),
- usually impactful within Standard (the format that only runs recent sets),
- rarely relevant within Modern (the format that runs sets from 2003 onwards),
- once in a blue moon ripple into the Eternal formats (that run every set since Alpha).
And usually, when a mechanic does "work out perfectly", it becomes "evergreen", meaning it's now set-agnostic and can show up anywhere. So the core gameplay evolves very slowly and carefully as a result of a very active and bubbling surface of mechanics that come and go with every set.
@@voltcorp I did not use the phrase that you put in quotation marks. Please don't put words in to my mouth. The P word in particular has no place in a discussion about game design. It is the ultimate in objective words, and games are about having fun... which is entirely subjective.
And if you feel the need to defend everything that M:TG has done, I present to you: Stasis lock. The definition of a negative play. experience.
They did make mistakes along the way, but that doesn't make it worse as a game to learn from.
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs(especially Wixoss) and the new Digimon TCG to the MtG example
While Magic's decades-worth of combo materials, keywords, piggybacking, and other lessons are great, Duel Masters and its followers addressed the handclogging issue of lands by making all cards playable as resource. They also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers. Clever product design
The new Digimon TCG, on the other hand, has a Patchwork-like resource system where the pricier the cards you pay, the more resources you give your opponent in the next turn
Also, Hex, Dodo, Bug, and many other modern abstracts might illustrate depth despite simplicity even better than chess
what a fun list! Still learning about mechanisms here, so I really loved hearing about them in some of these well known games I've played, like yea, I DO know that mechanism
Love Letter has to be on this list. It's an example of a near perfect system. About the only edge case where the mechanics break down is when your opponent(s) play the 4 card and your only play is a 1 card, so you do nothing but discard it. Even then, technically you target yourself and name a card you don't have.
Love Letter is a great pick! It is still one of the best 18 card games out there and it blew minds when it came out
Wait there is a specific subgenre of 18card games? It looks like such an arbitrary number can you ezplain?
@@dago6410 It oddly is sort of a sub genre. Sheets of cards are often printed 18 cards to a sheet which is where the number comes from. The company ButtonShy specializes in these small games and has a massive library at this point.
@@3ddevine Oh, makes sense! The only one I know is tides of time (which would be a really fun game had it had like a 100+ cards and you chose X for each game :P in my opinion, and had like 5 replays in my experience before being nothing interesting any more)
;p
Extremely helpful. Thank you so much for doing this video ☺️ I’m working on my first design 🥰
I assume a good designer designs games they would want to play themselves. Therefore, i'd advise to focus on the games they're interested to play.
I own the typical ones of the GIPF series and DVONN is back and forth with TZARR, I like those both so much.
Excellent list. While different approaches make some others top 10 confusing, here it was the best thing about it.
This is the most interesting top 10 anyone has done. More like this please.
Thank you for this video guys. Perfect timing for me.
App based games are nice to streamline physcical components. We use apps for player turn order in Aeon's End as shuffling 6 cards is easy to tell where the cards are. Press a button and the job is done. It made playing Gloomhaven less of chore along with preserving components. It adds atmosphere for games like ISS Vanguard and Tainted Grail. You can play these games without apps, but the apps assist in a nice way. As for other games such as Return to Dark Tower, Beyond Humanity: Colonies, or Mansions of Madness 2nd E. they would be bloated with additional rules, and physical components to deal with their design mechanics.
The downside to products that use apps is if you can't use the device (like low battery).
Great idea for a top 10 list! Really interesting and thought provoking ideas. Thanks!
This was so enjoyable to watch. Thank you!
Hansa Teutonica would have been a nice choice for this list.
Doing so much with so few components and rules, I think it's pretty great.
Thanks for a great show!
For this list I would probably put Stone Age, Dominion, For sale, Roborally, Magic, D&D, El Grande, Citadels, Euphrates & Tigris and Catan in the list, with Lords of waterdeep as an alternative for Stone Age and Deus as an honourable mention.
Why for sale? The way the auctions(turn based and blind bidding) interact to generate lots of depth?
My issue with Chronicles of Crime, which I've yet to play, is that it seems like the whole game could just be an app. What do the physical components bring to the experience compared to similar games that already exist completely as app only games? My best guess is that the physical components facilitate playing the game cooperatively, where syncing up the communal game interface just doesn't work smoothly over multiple screens or one big one. Otherwise there is the novelty/toy factor to it. I mean, I guess you can argue that's why people like to play physical games in general, even though you could play them on board game arena or something. Until I play it I just won't know, but I wish there was something about the physicality of the game that stood out to me as being integral to the experience.
I'm not sure if I would agree with you - what I feel about Chronicles of Crime is that it honestly feels like an interface for a point and click style adventure but one that kind of combines smoothing out the game play with note taking. I don't think it could just be an app because I feel like the way that you place suspects in locations and draw up a list of pieces of evidence makes the whole experience more intuitive. I get where your concerns are coming from, an I think I can see some people having those after playing the game, but I'd not be one of them.
I would argue that there is a question of value in the supplemental cases as £4 for maybe 30-60mins of play feels expensive when you can get complete apps for less than that, but that's more of a business issue than a design one
It’s by FAR the most overrated game I’ve seen hyped. It’s so boring you think you’re doing something wrong or missing something. If it was all an app it would be found out instantly. This one is all style over substance and doesn’t nearly scratch the Clue itch.
I love Zees approach to the list
Glen More 2 Chronicles, Twillight Struggle, Imperial 2030, Caylus, Tzolkin and Inis.
Incan Gold, Jaipur, and For Sale. Simple gateway games that pack a lot of depth that could be beneficial to designers.
Tom's insistence that action points are a dated mechanism is as bizarre as always. Pandemic Legacy, Through the Ages, Pax Pamir 2nd edition, Sleeping Gods, Trickerion, etc. all feature action point mechanics and are pretty popular. No matter the mechanic very few reprints of 23 year old games are going to sell gang busters, because the market is obsessed with new games.
Hallelujah
If Mike designed a game, it has to be named "Distilled."
I think Obsession would be a great game to play because of the sheer number of mechanics involved in the game And making them all work with strong theme in a cohesive manner. It's a brilliant design in my opinion. Great video!
I feel like the DnD pick is great but I also think one need to look at the older edition to see how they got to the streamlined version.
Mike . . . played a fun game tonight, watching this video: Take a drink of your favorite “distillation” every time Mike uses the word “distillation”.
Thanks Mike! 🍺🤓👍🏼
Ack, I love deck-builders like Ascension, but not a fan of Dominion. My husband figured out how to mill the deck during our second play and though that card doesn't have to be included into every game, I still feel like Ascension is way more interesting, if only because there are more options right out the gate in card types without having to purchase expansions.
There actually is a VERY good speech by marc rosewater about 25 years of Magic the Gathering and thoughts that went into the game design over all the years. It is extremely interesting from a game design standpoint.
Working on making a game now and I can say Can't Stop was a big inspiration to me. I also recommend two books: Sid Sackson's Gamut of Games and Dice Games Properly Explained by Reiner Knizia.
I agree with the originality of Pandemic, but I would go with Defenders of the Realm, as it fixed the issues I had with Pandemic (e.g., being too puzzle-y/predictable). So I think there's a lot more to learn from it.
Please, PLease, PLEase, PLEAse, PLEASe, PLEASE do the all* GIPF Series/Abstract day!
I'd add Duel Masters-inspired Japanese TCGs(especially Wixoss) and the new Digimon TCG to the MtG example
While Magic's decades-worth of combo materials, keywords, piggybacking, and other lessons are great, Duel Masters and its followers addressed the handclogging issue of lands by making all cards playable as resource. They also elegantly use the cards themselves as damage trackers. Clever product design
The new Digimon TCG, on the other hand, has a Patchwork-like resource system where the pricier the cards you pay, the more resources you give your opponent in the next turn
That was an informative discussion. Thanks
What the heck happened at 1:10:38? 😂
Haha
That's a throwback to a CrowdSurfing episode where they featured FurPal Kickstarter. It's a sound effect (some animal saying "FurPal") from the video of that campaign.
another fantastic list. Concept of 504 is pretty wild, would like to at least see it. really want to try dvonn and chronicles of crime
Mike never over uses words or phrases.
Repetition is comedy.
I'm not sure that D&D would be my first choice for an RPG to teach the benefits of an RPG.
"There wasn't much mess." 🤣 👌
I think that Dominion should be played to learn about deck building. And then almost any other deck builder should be played to learn that you can actually do something with the mechanism.
Yeah, I think DnD is showing the creakiness in the design, and a lot of things I outright despise in games like Skyrim (levelling up, hit points, random encounters, encumbrance) are things that DnD introduced in to the wider designer lexicon. In terms of playing an RPG, I'd probably steer someone towards an experienced GM with a more cinematic system like Genesys, or the Storyteller System if they wanted something a bit more tightly defined but still reasonably flexible
23:27 when is the day of abstracts catch-up palooza?!
I'm curious about the people's choice - it seems like this would be maybe the list with the widest range of titles, and possibly the winning game having a relatively smaller proportion of the vote, compared to say the voting for something like Top 10 roll and writes or Top 10 drafting games.
Definitely enjoyed the discussion, but the selections felt a bit like a Rorschach Test - the selections said as much about the panel as they did about the games themselves, and I feel like if a designer had a particular theme or mechanism in mind, they'd be better off starting with a top 10 of games in those areas so they could see what was out there already, and get a sense of what they felt worked and felt that didn't. It to me was more of an interesting video than a useful one (partly because the topic was too broad)
Wasn't the idea here basically to counter the "designers" on Kickstarter that indicate their game "makes gaming fun!" But, their game is just a Monopoly clone.
@@VaultBoy13 Not really, otherwise it would have concentrated more on the gateway titles. This was trying to be a bit of a primer for ones to get 'serious' game designers inspired
Mikes #9 for the Crew to give new designers a taste of a "flash in the pan" design lol
This myth about race for the galaxy being hard to pick up needs to end, and anyone teaching it badly should just improve how to teach it. I've successfully taught it several times in under 10m and the iconography wasn't even a big deal (I would clear questions along the plays). And I've taught it to very casual players with the same success.
...unlike how I was taught the game, which took me several sessions to really grasp what I was doing due to several misconceptions about the 'flow' of the game.
It pains me to see such a great game being slowly phased out due to this myth.
Although Modern Art showcases more kinds of auction, I'd argue that not only would For Sale be purer(since Modern Art also has majority control, stock ownership, and set collection), it also showcases how the nuances of one part can enrich another(in this case bidding on houses whose values depend on how you use them, as well as what other players' decisions would be)
Great list and very interesting discussion. I'm wondering if For Sale would be a better choice than Modern Art for pure auction mechanic? 🤔
If I had to choose between the two games to actually play, it would be Modern Art over For Sale any day of the week. But that's just me.
Tbf Modern Art showcases more kinds of auction. Although I'd agree that not only For Sale would be purer(since Modern Art also has majority control, stock ownership, and set collection), it also showcases how the nuances of one part can enrich another(in this case bidding on houses whose values depend on how you use them, as well as what other players' decisions would be)
I have to say, I still dont get why people credit Pandemic so much for Cooperative board games. Cooperative board games were my favorite type of games before Pandemic and I have never enjoyed Pandemic. With that said. A short list of games Id put down for this list would include...
Abstract: Khet
Real Time: Project Elite/Captain Sonar
Cooperative: pick your dungeon crawler of choice (Id pick Imperial Assault which also has a good app)
Asymmetric: Root/Unmatched
Miniature Game (A category I think is actually very beneficial for board gaming): X-Wing 2.0
Push Your Luck: Heat
Trick Taking: The Crew
Deck Building: Trains (While Dominion is a great choice, I think the addition of the board in Trains helps show how to adapt that idea into other games)
I apologize, but the fact is that Pandemic made the genre popular. Before that, there was Shadows over Camelot and Lord of the Rings, and that's about it.
@thedicetower Now I will also add, I had no idea Pandemic was as old as it is. I just looked it up and saw the 2008 tag on it. I really hadn't noticed this game on the shelves until around 2018. That is something to note. Maybe it is worth crediting as the one to push the cooperative genre forward, but is it still the game we should still be talking about to this day as the go to cooperative game to learn from? I think so many other cooperative games have out done what the Pandemic System is capable of at this point.
Still wrong then on the list. The historic fact that Pandemic made the genre popular is irrelevant for up and coming designers today. They should rather play the best/most comprehensive implementation of the coop genre existing today (that might still be Pandemic but the rationale is different)
I LOVE Godzilla Tokyo Clash. Whenever I've brought it out for players that like enjoy game design, they always comment on the cool decisions the designers made.
4:04 This I can't agree with at all. The game I'm designing is so entwined with the theme that I can't see how the production could just swap it out.
Great list.
One thing I think is missing is a solo game or focus on considering a solo experience. Scythe and Arkham Horror LCG can both fit, but the solo/autotoma experience was not pointed out in either.
Tragic The Blathering 😂
Zee never misses
What is that intro music called? Anyone know the artist or song? The one at the start during the countdown.
Tom's number 5, probably the best written rule book of the bunch. Board games and designers could learn from that.
Boardgamers buy multiple games with horrible rulebooks, RPG'ers will spend one day at a convention standing in line for a new well-written rule book.
My biggest pet peeve for game designers is, whatever the game or the mechanisms. DO NOT teach the game to your playtesters. . . let them learn it from the manual. That way you can make sure you fix vagueness or contradictions before the game is actually released. . .I can't tell you how many games I have played that I can say, with certainty, that this was not done correctly.
I agree with Zee on Tikal. I want more action point games!
I can’t find clank! Acquisitions incorporated anymore here in nz
Godzilla tokyo clash hell yeah! Great game but i definitely see his pov. Deserves expansions!
D&D is like Catan. Opens doors but if you think it is a good RPG ruleswise/designwise you have not played enough RPGs...
D&D Beyond, the online shows, playing online.. apps, fan community/homebrew and online activity etc mightbe a great inspiration though.
Happy 504 was mention. I genuinely enjoy it even if it is a bit of a chore to play each time
Has anyone made or found some variant rules to streamline Godzilla like Zee said it could do with? I looked at BGG, but it's pretty much just people creating new characters.
Zee didnˋt do that „woop-woop-woop“ sound since he mocked Samˋs choice of Vikings on the thematic games list back in the day, lol.
It's funny, despite enjoying Pandemic in the past and playing it a fair amount, I'm actually pretty mid on the game. It's way too easy for the game to turn into a "one player controls everything" scenario, or everyone optimizes your turn or someone else's turn. Sometimes the latter can be a good thing, as up to a certain point it's just playing collaboratively, but after said point it's just like "why don't you play my character for me and I'll just go do x instead?" And I'm pretty sure I'm the kind of person that tends towards the controlling, so I try to be very aware of that.
The shuffling the cities back on top of the deck is also a double-edged sword; it's thematically genius, but it also makes the game really easy if you can get your team on it. Knowing exactly what cities are possible candidates for new outbreaks means you can prioritize treating certain areas, and can even make it so there is no threat of an outbreak for a long time. I dunno, maybe that's just a result of my desire to try and optimize my play patterns when possible?
I would add to this list Robinson Crusoe, Puerto Rico, and BattleTech/CityTech.
Battletech? So the aspiring designer can look at all the ways they could streamline and modernize it?
@@koalabrownie - Yes; and how to create a game that modifies the dice rolls in a way that the luck component is heavily moved towards strategy.
@@EfrainRiveraJunior Well- I think there are better games for learning about luck mitigation. In Battletech you can influence the to-hit rolls, but not the hit table, cluster table, critical chance, critical table, piloting, heat or consciousness rolls.
@@koalabrownie - Yes, you can influence all that. It's complicated, but you can. Either way, I haven't played any game that does this better. Feel free to share alternate titles.
That's the beauty of these lists. We can learn from each other.
@@EfrainRiveraJunior I don't think you can influence it with the ease you're suggesting. I can't for example choose to aim for the left or right side of the mech if you've done damage there. You can hope to maneuver onto the side table, but even then it only shifts it a few percentage points. Not nearly enough. If you're talking targeting computers then that's special case equipment.
Federation Commander does the things I like about Battletech better, namely maneuvering. It also has much more player agency. It's SFB without all the bloat.
6:26 Tom: "That game you're thinking of right now...Not on the list."
Me: [skips to the end of the video].........Son of a gun, Tom was right!
Tikal is on my top ten of all time for me! Love that game!
A deep critical analysis of certain non hobby games (chess, go, backgammon, poker, bridge) is also essential. Likewise Blackjack is even more distilled push your luck than can’t stop.
The comment on Cosmic Encounter is why I like Illuminati so much. All the players can be involved in the important steps of all other players' turn so that, even if the VPP are not balanced, presuming the players choose to analyze the VPP properly, there will be no run away element. This is even more so than Cosmic Encounter.
One game I would add is CoraQuest. It is not known as a deep game, but how simple it is and easy to teach. Even kids 6 years old can play with adults, and 8 year old kids can play by themselves. Some games go for huge boxes, a thousand component and 100+ page rule books. But there is something about breaking the game down to the bare basics, so small and so simple that even young kids can play, while still deep enough that the adults can still have a good time. In fact I think for new boardgame designers, they should aim to make simpler games first. K.I.S.S.
I would have done games that combine mechanics well. For example, either Lost Ruins of Arnak/Dune Imperium.
My favorite knock-off of Magic was "Phart the Dispersing"!
I did consider all those mechanisms when I did Blood Rage Lite.
It is 2 months until 2025 and I have definitely still heard of The Crew!
Splendor and Splendor expansions are great for learning great mechanisms
Chiming in from May 2024 - The Crew: Mission Deep Sea is still great! Not a flash in the pan, Mike. ;)
Scythe deserves to be in the list for world building but also as a masterclass in board design. Every single rule of the game is somehow represented on the game and player boards. And with all that content, they still managed to throw in Easter eggs.
can we have a top 10 of Tom's ties? this one here could be easily my no. 1
Every time Mike says "Purest distillation", can be a drinking game 😂😂😂
Yes! Please do live abstract day! Please, please, please!!
Excellent video! But when Tom said that no game tried to emulate Powergrid, don´t you think Scoville did it? With the alternate player order every fase, and the auction at the beginning of every round?
On Tikal: I finally played it for the 1st time about a year ago and I found the game to be utterly brilliant. I was super excited to get the new printing with the resin pieces.
Sorry, disagree - good ideas, boring game!
I would love to buy the resin pieces to upgrade the original. It’s a great 2 player as well, a game I still think about strategies for when I’m falling asleep.
I like Lost Cities but the decision space is small.
That's the only one I really disagree with. Really enjoy these lists and the discussion.
I think I might have taken the opposite of Mike's approach :D
My assumption: an aspiring designer who is willing to try games from such a list is familiar with the hobby and has seen a lot (most?) modern boardgame mechanisms in action.
So my list would be: here are 10 games with familiar mechanisms that put a really interesting mayor twist on them. AKA here are some ideas how one can take familiar things and make them unique, or here are some example for thinking outside of the box.
E.g. worker placement - raiders of the north sea (the place one down, pick one up approach, which adds quite a few nuances to the system, also workers are "shared" etc.).
Yeah, Mike’s list seems to be designed for someone who hasn’t played board games but wants to design a game and not someone who enjoys board games and wants to try to design their own.
You guys need to do the list of games that designers can learn from on what not to do. Top 10 Games That Do It Wrong kind of list.