The WORST-DESIGNED Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Characters
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ค. 2024
- Today, we take a detailed look at the worst-designed characters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, why they deserve their titles, and what could be done to improve them going forward.
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Music used:
"Factory Fright Flooded" - Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair OST
"MockRock is Here" - MockRock
"Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon Medley" - CSGuitar89 (Original from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon OST)
"Fighting Spirit (Battle Theme)" - HydroGene (Original from Dragon Quest VII OST)
"Fruit Analysis Theme" - Harjawaldar (Original from Pikmin 3 OST)
"Training Theme" - Nestalgica (Original from Punch-Out!! OST)
"Punch-Out!!" - Nestalgica (Original from Punch-Out!! OST)
"Mute City" - ToxicxEternity (Original from F-Zero OST)
"His World" - AJ DiSpirito (Original from Sonic the Hedgehog OST)
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Thanks for watching!
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Topics related to this video:
Super Smash Bros Ultimate, Smash Bros Ultimate, Super Smash Bros, Smash, Super Smash Bros Wii U, Smash 4, Super Smash Bros Brawl, Brawl, Super Smash Bros Melee, Melee, Smash 64, Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, Brawlout, Icons Combat Arena, Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Dark Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Ice Climbers, Sheik, Zelda, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Falco, Marth, Lucina, Young Link, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Roy, Chrom, Mr. Game and Watch, Meta Knight, Pit, Dark Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Snake, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Sonic, King Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B., Toon Link, Wolf, Villager, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina and Luma, Little Mac, Greninja, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Pac-Man, Robin, Shulk, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Ryu, Ken, Cloud, Corrin, Bayonetta, Inkling, Ridley, Simon, Richter, King K. Rool, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo-Kazooie, Terry, Byleth, The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox, Pokemon, Earthbound, Mother, F Zero, Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus Uprising, Metal Gear Solid, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch-Out, Xenoblade, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy VII, Splatoon, Castlevania, Game Maker's Toolkit, Persona, Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Dragon Quest XI, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury, Nintendo, Nintendo Switch, Wii U, Wii, Gamecube, Nintendo 64, N64, SNES, NES, Tier List, Best, Worst, Fighting Game, Sakurai, Masahiro Sakurai, DLC, review, analysis, leak, Fighter's Pass, new character, ARMS, Scott the Woz, RelaxAlax, Alpharad, ZeRo, VGBootcamp, Nairo, PJiggles, Little Z, MKLeo
#SuperSmashBros #SmashUltimate #Nintendo - เกม
Let's talk about a few characters I'm seeing popping up in the comments!
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*Ganondorf:* I fully agree that his core design has been pushed as far as it can be and is disappointingly unfaithful to the Legend of Zelda series, and have stated this myself in multiple videos. However, he's also very fun to a lot of people, which if we flash back to the "Best Designs" video, is part of the criteria I look at. He'd still appear in a top 10 video.
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*Kirby:* It's true that Kirby's design is blander than in his home series, but this serves a valuable purpose by creating an extremely intuitive beginner character. If your Mom has ever played Smash with you, she's likely gravitated towards Kirby. This is a very valuable asset to have in a game like this.
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*Lucario:* I think there are some flawed aspects of Lucario's design, but don't have any fundamental problem with the concept of powering up as you take damage, I actually think it's pretty cool.
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Let me know your thoughts!
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Little Mac is good if you know how to use him.
Ko Punch kills at 20
Bryant Student :D 38 KO punch can kill at 20 yeah, but that’s still only one extreme option he can’t even always use
(Unless this was sarcastic and I’m just getting whoooooshed)
I wonder if Little Mac would be better if the game had wavedashing. I doubt it would significantly improve him but the thought of Little Mac wavedashing with a KO Punch is somewhat frightening.
I know most won’t agree with me, but I hate fighting and playing against Joker. He has so many moves he could pull from his games (or so I’ve heard I haven’t played P5) and yet they give him some of the most boring moves, most copied from existing moves. The only interesting things about him is Arsene, which is just annoying to fight and rewards taking damage, and his up-b, but only because it’s pretty bad and leads to some funny interactions. Great vid btw
I would actually say that, though he doesn't reflect his abilities from his home series, Ganondorf is fairly well designed in Ultimate. They actually managed to make him hit hard enough and have moves that are safe enough to throw out that his crappy mobility and relatively slow moves don't prevent him from being a serious threat. My only changes to him would be making up tilt useful (preferably as a get-off-me option) and to let him use up-b after side-b in the air like Incineroar.
"rushed development" "Sonic"
Yeah, I've definitely heard these words together a lot
And with both development and his actual speed, it killed and continues to kill him.
@The Good Demon "he goes too fast"
"We know."
Sonic 06 in a nutshell
@@SimonThomas-qr8nv yeaouch that's cold.
Boom, roasted
Idea to solve the Olimar problem: Make his antenna glow whatever color of Pikmin he has selected.
Make the natural colour a brighter/much darker red
Make a meter
@@yahirsanchez-silva2127 this^ most of these suggestions would interfere with olimars actual design
@@bobcat_named_bob Yeah, he needs some sort of icon/meter near his UI that indicates which pikmin are next. Makes it easier for both the player and the opponent to see what pikmin is on deck and which one is next.
@@yahirsanchez-silva2127 the actual game has a feature like this so it’s strange he doesn’t have it
sonic just can't catch a break, not in smash, and not even in his own games
it's almost like he came from a small company trying to bite off way more than they can chew (not Sega's rivalry with Nintendo, just Sega trying to master holding the title of "fastest thing alive" and keeping up quality)
This is what we have to suffer through as Sonic fans 😞
"Not his own gamea"
You people rush sega and then blame them for the game quality with a shitty fandom like this of course he won't get a break.
@@ahmadkazan7994 you can't really blame the fans tho, sonic isn't JUST a video game character, he's in comics, he's in movie's, he's in fucking ANIME. You can't blame "the fans" because sonic has multiple types of them some weird and some just has frustrated has outsiders to the series.
@@ahmadkazan7994 It's not "fandom's" job to make video games. It's not "fandom's" job to manage the design process, the release schedule or quality control. It's CERTAINLY not "fandom's" job to act as brainless, zombie boosters of a company whose own job is to make money off consumers in order to please investors (which applies to literally *_every_* video game company). Sega's issue is what they've proven: mediocre to bad game + reduced but diehard Sonic fan base = profit at the margin. So they keep doing it.
19:40 The worst part of sonic’s homing attack is that he doesn’t even strike a pose like you see him do in the generations footage. It’s so painful
and he even has multiple after-homing attack poses he does in the games. but not one in smash
imagine how sick it would be if sonic had a trick system to build up his boost meter, with his side-b being a more versatile but more vulnerable version of wonderwing. for example, having psuedo-taunts after attacks like incineroar, but if you let them play out instead of canceling them you get boost meter. which does seem counter intuitive to playing as *sonic* but thats the point, its something sonic would do. you COULD play it safe and run away, or take the risk and show off, and be rewarded for it. letting these animations fill the meter when left to play out would give one incentive to actually *take* these risks, unlike other risky moves in smash, where you have no reason to do them other than used as hard-read options, or for style points (falcon punch, luigi's taunt spike, etc)
and/or another option to fill the meter would just be by taunting normally, and also giving him the ability to taunt in the air, like in sonic rush, generations, etc. sonic's a cocky smartass whos totally full of himself, it would make perfect sense. but i get that making taunting a mechanic for a fighter's playstyle *is* a bold move, and people would likely hate him even more than they already do if he played this way. but it would make for a really unique fighter, while simultaneously staying true to his home series' playstyle, and staying in character for sonic
idk though, this was just off the top of my head, theres so much other potential they could tap for sonic but have just refused to, for 3 games in a row (light speed dash, wind based attacks, werehog, chaos control, caliburn, elemental shields, wisps, dropping and collecting rings, etc etc)
Goddamn Pikachu strikes a pose after back airing and Sonic can't after homing attacking?
@@yourehereforthatarentyou this idea is so fucking good!
You also forgot that taunts can’t be done online so his boost would be worthless there if charged with them
@@jmurray1110 such a dumb feature. removing taunts will just make people find something else to replace them
A boxing character in Smash has so much potential, but it’s a shame that Little Mac had so many downsides to him.
I think the worst is his aerials don't need to be so pathetic. Mac in Punch Out emphasized precision in his games, you got rewarded for hitting the right body part that they weren't guarding, so he should have strong aerials, since they are hard to hit, but reward you for hitting. He never emphasized power, he emphasized smart decision making and dodging and punishing, so that should be what he specializes in. Not raw destructive power. Weaken his ground attacks, make his aerials hard to hit but powerful enough to compensate, and gave him a heavy bait and punish game.
Really creative Sakurai is.
I don't mind the fact that he is bad in the air and recovery because that's how a normal boxing match should be. You should always be grounded and not get trapped at the outside ring( the edge of the stage). So I think they should give him an average recovery with good recovery options BUT easy to gimp. This means it should be more reaction based then simply a point and click to go to the ledge.
Grounded up b is somewhat good, but AERIAL UP B CAN'T GO ANYWHERE! Little mac main btw
@@supermariogamer8936 I honestly see the fighting game characters in this game as the perfect example of how mac should be or atleast good to inspire a better version of mac
That feeling when little mac plays more like his bosses then himself in Smash.
If you spam smash attacks which is inviable in tourney he plays like them
I mean, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, considering his bosses are memorable aspects of his series, and Little Mac being a vehicle to represent them is fitting. Though, indeed, Little Mac should still represent himself, and more importantly, be fun to play with and against.
Why don't they just add the bosses from punch out
good god imagine a heavy echo of little mac being Mr. Sandman / mike tyson. lets also be honest itd funny as shit to have essentily mike tyson in a nintendo game lmao
@@XIUnicron 🤡
I don't think Nintendo will do anything about Hero's menu, as this would only really affect tournament players, and, well, Nintendo acts as if competitive Smash doesn't exist.
mostly because Nintendo has no obligations to support the competitiveness of the games, they never wanted it to begin with, and smash will most definitely sell with or without any tourney representation.
Most people don't play it for the competitive aspect, they just want to fight with some of gaming's most famous mascots, that alone takes up most of the budget and dev time, and is the reason why brawl sold as well as it did.
Yeah and now we can be glad they didn't
Mason Jones Just because they have no obligation doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t lol
@@asuuki2048 "should or shouldn't" means very little when the devs never intended it to begin with. Essentially they see it as something that the fandom demands the devs are "responsible for" despite it being completely accidental, Smash has always been meant for casual play ever since Sakuri was inspired to make a "beginner friendly" game after wasting strangers in a fatal fury arcade game
I mean, I wish this wasn't the case, I'd like proper changes to make the game more competitively friendly, but I just don't see it happening no matter how much people think it's their "responsibility" to support it
@@masonjones7777 brawl didn't only sold so well because of it's beginner friendly mechanics, but also because of Brawl's story mode. Can't tell me any of the current Smash's are able to connect there anywhere close.
Ganondorf. The sword was a great addition but otherwise he’s still a Falcon clone. Give him his flight, reflecting cape and energy projectiles from OoT so he can rep his series better and be a little more versatile.
@Gustavo Vasconcelos
I think this list is more for characters that are designed badly in the sense that you can't tell what they're doing something (Olimar), make fighting them painfully boring or at best decrease interaction when fighting that character (Sonic and Luigi), or are just bad mechanically (whatever is up with Falcon's dash). Ganondorf is poorly designed in the sense that he doesn't feel like the same wizard guy from LoZ, but he's mechanically sound.
@Gustavo Vasconcelos
I don't mind this Ganondorf, but if they're going to stick with Falcondorf, they need to put in LTTP Ganon with actual LoZ attacks as a character as compensation. For a guy that claims to care about accurate character representation, Sakurai REALLY does a bad job at representing characters that aren't DLC.
@Gustavo Vasconcelos
Link to the Past.
We should give Ganon a limit break, but he turns into beast Ganon for the rest of the match, can only be damaged from his tail, and is super-armored until he reaches atleast 300%. Ganon should also be able to crit, tipper, be able to desync with phantom Ganon and restore full HP every time he successfully shields a move.
EspurrsEyes42 Ganondorf is bad design because the KO power doesn’t compensate at all for his almost non-existent neutral and recovery. You could give him everything I listed and he’d be low-mid at best because he’d still have cinder blocks for feet and be a barn door off stage.
the rushed and mishandled use of sonic speed actually represents his franchise really well...sadly.
Too true. Sakurai had to represent what he thinks of Sonic Team's game design.
Damn.
@Muse Suse Homing attack ain't classic
That still doesn’t make him anymore fun to play, he’s the least ambitious 3rd Party.
Really? How is that?If anything shakuria put sonic in the game for purely clickbait.
I'm not surprised Little Mac is on here, but I *am* surprised at his placement.
Where would you have placed him on your list?
@@MrMockRock I honestly would have placed him at #1, but mostly because I didn't know enough about Sonic in Smash to know how bad he was. I would have put Sonic at #3
@@jobot0114 Ah, gotcha!
How were you here 22 hours ago
SeungkwanBot my guess is Patreon.
As a sonic fan, I don't even play him in Smash due to him not even feeling like the character. It's also disappointing how much of his kit feels boring with his multiple ball moves. I also miss some of the swagger and flare that sonic in brawl had, he feels a little bit better in that game at least. I really hope with this impressive amount of flak the character design is getting that they actual do decide to remake the character (it wouldn't hurt adding Shadow as an echo fighter as well).
His side B or down B should change, they are almost the same.
His taunts peaked in Brawl too. Nothing against Roger Craig Smith, but outside of Boom, the voice is just... off.
@@johanklaver3237 His side B should be Light Speed Dash (Fox's side b but faster and stronger)
Change Down B to him spawning a monitor that contains a random elemental shield from S3nK that would change his gameplay while he had them
@@johanklaver3237 And give him more options to rushdown. His gameplay doesn’t match his series nor his personality at all.
Maybe Sonic should have a boost Attack similar to Banjos Wonderwing, but the only way fill the boost gauge is to engage combat with opponent
something like an ''air boost'' like if the player is in the air against someone he can press the button and he boosts through the enemy pushing him dealing some good damage.
That sounds like a very difficult mechanic to implement. How would the game properly judge what is and isn't combat with an opponent?
@@luigi64dd91 i-i assumed he meant y'know, attacking the enemy?
@@hunkymccree8458 Oh, maybe. I thought that it would include getting near the enemy and maybe shielding attacks etc. In other words, all forms of approaching (as opposed to camping and running away). Though if it was just attacking the enemy, would that include missed attacks or just hits?
@@luigi64dd91 Hits, probably, seeing as if misses counted, you could possibly just sit in the corner jabbing at nothing until you got boost.
Little Mac is super interesting to me because his moveset represents his canonical fighting style perfectly, but gets his actual character all wrong. Yes, he fights by getting in an opponent’s face, using quick powerful strikes, and looking for a strong knockout
But in terms of his actual character, little Mac is the ultimate underdog, he’s not gonna stop fighting no matter what, and you’ll practically have to kill the kid to stop him
...where as in Smash, stopping him is as easy as lightly pushing him off the ledge
I don't even think he represents his fighting style correctly. Mac is never bigger or stronger than his enemies, he never hits harder even. His excellence is his ability to dodge and strike enemies at their weak, unguarded parts.
As such, I feel his kit should emphasize precision and risk/reward over raw power. Make his F Smash stronger but remove the armor to emphasize reads. Keep his aerials the same, but make them safer and way way stronger. Center his kit around pressuring shield with f tilt and then letting him punish what they do when pressured. Give him a better recovery, but make his side B a short ranged movement option that doesn't cover as much as Haymaker but he could combo out of it at low percents and kill at higher percents. Give him a really good air dodge and spot dodge, since his games emphasize dodging. And finally, GIVE THIS MAN A KILL THROW!
I mean, Mac is kind of an underdog pick?
Mac is supposed to be like a tanky sheik.
Gets in up close and lands as many hits as he can, but they don't hit that hard, he's just chipping away at his opponents.
But he eats his fair share of shots for the risk of going in, but he just keeps coming back.
They clearly didn't understand boxing or little mac as a character more than an extremely basic visual level to design him like this.
The worst part is that they left him like this.
If any character deserved a rework between 4 and Ult, it was little mac. But for some reason he didn't get one.
It doesn't even make that much sense that his air game sucks just because he's a boxer. Sure, he doesn't jump much in his games, but neither do Link, Villager, Olimar, or any of the Fire Emblem characters, and they all have usable aerials even though they're all basically normal humans. The Punch-Out universe is wacky and doesn't always obey the laws of physics, so it wouldn't be out of place for Mac to be jumping around.
If they were intending to make Mac the underdog he always has been in his home games, then I'd say they certainly succeeded. I have never seen a Mac in a match a presumed that he'd be anything but last place.
19:27 The werehog is actually used for his f-smash, just look at that range xd
Very true lol
That's a nice reference.
This comment is underrated as heck
I just love how little Mac is so universally known as a bad character and yet he's still highly respected in fights as no one wants to get close.
Since I play mostly 4 player item on battles, I like to play Little Mac every once in a while and wreck people fighting each other with his Straight Lunge, its surprisingly effective, goes to show how Little mac is meant to be played.
Little Mac on ground can be very dangerous, but in air... Yeah...
@@ENJIEER Little Mac on the ground: I can kill you at 10% with a single move, deny your attacks with super armor, and breaking all your defenses.
Mac in the air: *dies*
See, if we were to give Sonic let's say.... His Sonic Battle move set, things would be a lot better, and he would be fun to play. As a past Sonic main, and a current Sonic fan, it's really sad to see the hate he's getting from the community right now. Even getting banned in tourneys. It's really sad. And just like Sonic 06 itself, it had SO much potential, but was rushed, and got hate. Way too much than it needed.
And moveset has been retained though the 3 games he’s been in for reasons?!?!?!?!?
@@mastrsonic375 probably for the same reason ganondorf has remained the same several games in a row and only had changes to his smash attacks for ultimate. rushed development that was added in later games because it was always like that
@@Underworlder5 well, it does has it's merits. while it doesn't represent the character's abilities, gannondorf's moveset does display his most notable trait, power.
The Sonic time out controversy always seemed stupid to me. The character was literally designed to be fast, and have a hit and run style where evading is key to not eating combos and getting K.O'd! So what if it isn't some ultra hype K.O maneuver, a win is a win! (P.S I am not a Sonic main, I just wanted to speak my mind on the topic)
@@spektacles1927 it's just not fun for anyone.
I love playing Sonic, but I really wish he was redesigned. Seriously, he has 2 spindashes.
Ikr
You love playing sonic??? How??? How do people get enjoyment from running away and spamming B???
@@esqimo6647 I don't run away or spam. If anything, I'm overaggressive. But I just like moving fast and having good movement options.
The Fake Slim Shady ok cool you have a soul unlike _every other sonic player_
Also me
Little Mac’s design really lacks a key element of his games: his dodging. See, in Punch-Out there’s a large emphasis on read opponent’s attacks and then punishing them. And while Mac has good ground speed and decent dodges, this formula falls apart when Mac is in the air. Mac should be powerful, yes, but left vulnerable when he misses. I think if his grounded moves were a bit easier to punish but he had a slightly more versatile and much more powerful air game he would work better. I also think his Up B should be either less linear or faster and cover more distance. His current recovery reminds me of Luigi but with half the distance, or Fox’s Firefox without the angles.
Smash 4: we dont like little mac he requires no skill and needs camping to fight against
Sakuria: dont worry we'll fix your problem
Smash Ultimate:
His airdodge should also either have more invincibility frames or goes further as he is known for dodging in his home game
@@pizzawonderer5024 I have a proposal of what to do with his airdodges: make them have the least amount of lag out of the entire cast of Smash Ultimate and more invincibility frames, which will allow Mac to dodge attacks for longer periods of time and be relatively safer to use and not a death sentence. He could even gain a few frames of invincibility frames when he crouches down on the ground to mimic how he can duck under attacks in the Punch-Out games.
@@Schnoz42069 yeah but he needs to have at least weak aerials with actual hitboxes that can combo and some be safe so that people don’t just camp and complain while slightly nerfing his smash attacks
@@AverageHandle_ i think his aerials should be useful for getting the opponent off him, but useless for KOing, that way, you get a ground based fighter without invalidating over a quarter of his moveset
Imagine the character with the worst aerial moveset in a game that prioritizes aerial dominance not even having the best ground game...
My brother was super excited when Little Mac was added to the game. He hardly plays as him anymore, though, exactly for this reason. If the devs aren't gonna give him ANY air game, then why doesn't he have the best ground game??? Sonic and Little Mac seem like the absolute worst designed characters in Smash. Sonic just doesn't feel like Sonic and Little Mac is just choosing to be frustrated the entire match.
@@yincenteno298 Put a heavily buffed Little Mac on Final Destination with other 3 players of between beginner to intermediate level, and you'll have a pretty busted character,. Thats pretty much the reason they nerfed him early on smash 4, due to complaints on "For Glory".
In my opinion the worst thing about Sonic is that he doesn't say "You're too slow!" anymore.
(Also, this is the first comment I've made in 2 years so that's fun)
ABSOLUTELY
Bro that was one of THE Best taunts in smash ever
God, as a Sonic fan it hurts to see him at the top of the list, but it's so incredibly justified.
To further add fuel to the dumpsterfire that is Sonic's design, it only gets worse when you play online with additional inconsistent input lag. Especially if you're playing a character with slow frame data, you're better off just jumping offstage 3 times and leaving.
Edit
Something I just remembered when it comes to Captain Falcon, have you seen Raptor Boost? It just seems to work whenever it feels like and it makes me sad
Jesper0707 951 makes sense
He's move set is also extremely uninteresting and repetitive.
@@starbluelight12yearsago39 thats why people thinks he spamming
I mean Sonic Only runs boost and home Attack and spin Dash
What would he do in smash?
mepphy99 did you watch the video? He has many more moves
Glad that so many people have brought attention to Sonic's flaws in design positively instead of the usual hypernegatively, cheers
Not everyone wants to take a hour to explain why a character is poorly designed, some people like me just putt it like: way too similair and repetitive attacks, and not much credit to the actual sonic franchise
@@Bennieboy918 that's what Sonic is though. Most sonic games he just runs fast and rolls
I stop using him because of how much of Sonics flaws are present
@@christinabutterfield1801 same could be said about characters like mario, who just runs and jumps in most of his games, yet has a more varied moveset than just jumping really hard. The whole "most games are just running" argument is not valid, especially because mario has things like fludd, which only appeared in one game.
Finally .i had never seen before a positive video about sonic except for montages.
I'm admittedly surprised I didn't see the Pits in the honorable mention category, seeing as they're pretty much the poster child for "they fell out of my multi-hit."
@@SoRa-re1yd they should have better hitboxes though
Probably because he mains dark pit.
title: worst designed characters
thumbnail: my mains
me: 😔
My main man Sonic is at number 1. 😭
Evil The Sackboy I want him to be reworked, he’s suffered far too much in Smash
Joshua, he’s also been suffering during his games
Evil The Sackboy yeah... hopefully the new game will be amazing since they’re taking their time.
@@Joshua-uy5ih ive heard that one before
5:04 Thought I was looking at Garfield for a second
Same.
“I hate Monday’s, and evil gods trying to destroy the world”
That is Garfield.
Stuffing your face as usual
“Noooo you cant main Mac, he’s way too weak in the air and you can’t recover.”
My little brother: haha flashy meter kills at 30
Dude amazing comment. Just amazing.
haha ding ding goes brrrrrrrr
Then there's Zero who 3 stocked Leo with Little Mac
Perfectly balanced as all things should be
zero: haha c stick go clack clack
While I can see your point in putting Sonic at number 1, I’d personally put him below Little Mac. Although Sonic’s moveset might be extremely uninspired, he at least functions properly as a character. Little Mac’s ground-to-air ratio is too extreme for him to actually play Smash like it’s supposed to be played.
This hurts
But Little mac at least has some skill needed AND he has some spice ( KO punch, super armor strength)
@D.A. Botos I always ask this, how is making a keepaway hit and run character inherently a bad design? Laming it out is just as valid a strategy as any competitively. Like, I ask this as not a smash player but someone who does play other fighting games. The best way to play Yuzuriha in Under Night is to stay full screen and pressure with saki, Venom from Guilty Gear is perfectly content backing away and setting pool balls so that you have easier ways to get in. Is that "poor design"? No one has explained why Sonic is badly designed outside "he's annoying". I do think he needs a retool so he can do more but he's not poorly designed imo
@D.A. Botos Who's GDT sorry? Want to check this video out.
And I still don't see how that makes him a poorly designed character. Annoying sure. But the fun of fighting games is winning exchanges, if the exchange with Sonic is getting to him to land a hit while he lands potshots then... doesn't that mean he's functioning perfectly fine and it's the person fighting the Sonic that's failing?
D.A. Botos I feel an intense bias against zoners and keep away characters and anything that’s “not fun for me is not fun for anyone else” coming from you
Also I want a link to that vid/article you mentioned please
It kinda sucks that Sonic's reveal at Brawl in e3 2007 literally broke the internet and fast forward to 2020 almost everyone wants him out of the game.
@Gustavo Vasconcelos Sonic is not toxic, lmao.
CNK 98 he makes people toxic.
@@cnk9822 sonic has the easiest time timing out opponents than any other character in the entire game
if that's not toxic then idk what is
@@ruta_VA Ok and Hero's moveset is at least 70% RNG, just learn how to play against Sonic, close combat, grabs and projectiles, not that hard.
with hero it takes a high skill level to play him very effectively, with sonic it takes much less effort but at the same time a higher reward than learning how to fight as hero
I’ve always had my thoughts on sonic in smash, but in terms of a redesign I’d like to see something involving momentum. The classic series has its main focus on building and preserving speed through careful fast paced gameplay. I have no idea how that’d translate to smash but I think it’d be cool
In Melee you can actually keep your momentum from your run if you jump out of it.
I think it'd be cool if he could cancel his dash into either his normal or side-special, and depending on how long he'd been running beforehand it would increase the damage and/or knockback. This "momentum mechanic" would be limited in tournament stages due to their size, but if done right with dash dancing, it would make him a high risk, high reward character.
Bro imagine if you could just crouch while walking like sonic 1
Jonathan Dauterman that honestly sounds like such a fun and good idea. If only Sakurai would implement this
@@hyde7100 or actually make sonic *feel* like sonic
Little Mac: Sure my aerial game is garbage, but look at how strong my ground moves are! I can kill super early, that's good, right?
Roy: *Laughs in super early killing and a great aerial game*
You know it's bad when a character who is supposed to have the best ground game still gets overshadowered by other characters' ground games, and those characters still have better, well, everything than him.
@@partyharry7585 Oooooofff
@@partyharry7585 Hell Roy also got in largely as a marketing stunt too. Smash character before anything else just like Corrin.
yeah but his back air kills at 220, can roy do that?
Mmmm dude he honestly still have the best ground game on the entire game, fast attacks, armor, high damages and kill power... But everything else is bad true
Yeah the one thing the Mac defenders saying he’s not the worst have going. And yet he’s not the best at that.
I just realized Olimar has that antenna with the light on his helmet, they should make it so the color of the light matches the active Pikmin
Things have been added to a character before that are not present in their source material. (Smash art and jump art are not actually in Xenoblade, Wolf side b doesn't appear in Starfox as far as I'm aware.) So a change like that could very easily come about.
Honestly, what comes to mind when I think of F-Zero is SPEED and HYPE, if Captain Falcon in Smash does not represent that, I don’t know what does LMAO
I don’t get the hype I’ve played as him and he’s so boring and his voice is annoying
@@ChillestForm n-n-NANI?
@@ChillestForm You're just not playing him right
@@ChillestForm nah you're just trolling
You little ones never played an F-Zero game beyond standard difficulty, it wasn't all SPEED and HYPE, it was SWEAT and FRUSTRATION. (coming from a veteran who completed GX 100%)
I feel that for sonics design, instead of the current hit and run approach, they could tap into something that is extremely important in his games: momentum. In (most good) sonic games, it takes a long time to get up to speed, but when you do, you go extremely fast and the game suddenly becomes about keeping that momentum. Something like this could apply to smash, perhaps giving him near limitless potential to run over an opponent but requiring reads and an all in approach- after all, you can't exactly stop on a dime when going 1000 mph.
That wouldn't ge good.His running speed is fine considiring there is like zero space to gain momentum.
@@ahmadkazan7994 I don't necessarily mean by speed, more by advantage state vs disadvantage state
@@Emerardo "Like, what games does it take a while to reach max velocity?"
Pretty much only Sonic 1. As that game didnt have any burst options like later games did, the only quick way to build speed in the first game was to roll down a hill or use a horizontal spring. But also one could argue the first game didnt have nearly as much of an emphasis on speed as the rest since not that many levels took advantage of it.
Sonic having a lot of ball attacks actually makes sense when you look at the bulk of his standard moves across the series. Most of them involve him rolling into a ball. I would just be more upset that they didnt draw from more of his games rather than just taking most of his moves from Sonic the Fighters, and the rest comprised of ball attacks and similar animations to other characters.
I think its probably difficult to dramatically change a character's moveset/focus, as you risk alienating those that are used to the way he is now. Granted i know there are lots of Sonic players out there calling for said change, but there are also a good many who are fine with him as is. I kinda feel this is a similar reason as to why Ganondorf still shares some of the same animations as Captain Falcon, he has moved further and further away from Falcon as time went on, but he still vaguely resembles him.
I do agree though that a change to Sonic should happen regardless.
@@ThundagaT2 Change his side-special, it's just down special 2: Electric Boogaloo.
@@ThundagaT2 About ganondorf though, I think they should just change his specials and he's perfectly fine.
That moment when your two mains are in the thumbnail
Oof
u main luigi and sonic?? yeesh
@@adamdiemer3447 Honestly I've been trying Joker and Lucina a lot more lately. But still I just found that really ironic, XD
y i k e s
That's a yikes. Hope you get well soon 😬
Min Min and Kazuya would probably be here if this was updated with all DLC
Hero is actually designed very well, he encourages you to learn another language more than any school ever has.
Speed is such an integral part of sonic that even his development was fast
I say give mac the ganondorf treatment.
Give him a sword and let him be able to kill at 30 without ko punch
Ryan Tan the sword is a sword. I don’t understand the second part of your comment
@@nobro6971 he means what from his games could he use as his sword, I think
The Nobroshi Use Glass Joe as a bludgeon like Banjo does Kazooie.
J-Anne Bonne oh that makes sense. I’ve never played a punch out game so that’s why the name was not familiar
Let him randomly use different opponents for his attacks, kind of like Duck Hunt.
I've noticed that characters ultimately stay much the same from one iteration of a smash game to another. Sometimes moves get changed or replaced, but the core design never changes. This is most obvious when you look at the original smash 64 cast. Donkey Kong has had the same moveset for 2 decades, imagine if he were released as a new character in ultimate. I imagine he would have a move to throw barrels or something along those lines. It's obvious that Sakurai and the team had the main goal of including as many characters as possible in ultimate, but I'd love to see a kit overhaul for many of the cast in the next smash game.
I also agree that Little Mac should have a functional air game. Link is also not known for jumping (only able to do with a dedicated button in the adventure of Link and BOTW) and he has been jumping around since the very beginning.
that also bothers me a bit, especially all the dlc fighters go batshit crazy with their moves, but the old chars still have the same plain moves since 1999..I mean, I still main (Young) Link, but the difference between new and old chars is quite noticeable.
Some people are more a fan of characters moveset then the character and it's game so some people if not a majority depending on the moveset overhaul will get upset.
Honestly I have to disagree with this, Luigi is actually a pretty good example. While yes there’s cores to his kit that have remained (rocket punch) there were other things tweaked or removed that changed his style significantly. ROB also had a complete play style shift, in Brawl he was mostly about glide combos with his top but glide throws were removed completely and his kit adjusted.
wE cAn'T cHaNgE iT bEcAuSe iT wOuLd aLiEnAtE oLd pLaYeRs
@@orangeslash1667 he's c tier
I do agree him having a projectile would be stupid, but still
I feel that the issue with overhauling Sonic would be a tendency to lean into abilities from games out of the main series. You obviously mentioned this, but to diversify his kit in a way that is ultimately significant would probably push devs to that as THE solution, as opposed to a possibility. The adventure series has some interesting ideas like the flame bounce which could be his dair. You could also turn his d-tilt into his somersault as a trip move. I think having a lights-speed dash that fills over time based on how much he has moved or how often he lands a hit could be a decent replacement for his spin-charge.
One thing i think i do disagree with you on is the emphasis of him being in a ball not being that representative of the character. He is in that state in his games far too often for it not to be implemented as often as it has been. I just think other moves could be utilized. But, until nintendo puts in another Sonic Rep, I don't think they'll improve Sonic's kit. The only way that'll happen is if Sega and Nintendo strike another lucrative game deal, or if a current Sonic game is getting positive reception and good sales on a Nintendo platform. Usually, one or two of those criteria can happen, but rarely all three.
Years later to this comment but hey, Frontiers did pretty well! Heres to hoping it pushes them to redo it. (My lil bro who’s a major sonic fan basically said that previously Sonic was too irrelevant, so… maybe he’ll finally be relevant enough 😭).
@@DoKuShOsTaR I'm really looking forward to the future of the franchise. I loved Frontiers
Little Mac should get stronger aerials and focus more on the bob-and-weave aspect of boxing, being fast and having better recovery
Hell no.
That just sounds like sonic lmao
then what will his flaws be if he has a good recovery, good ariels, super armour, unblockable attacks, and fast ones at that.
mac needs to be removed from the game
Remove superarmor and give Little Mac sourspot and sweetspot on his punches and make him play like marth
And actually that would make sense since boxing Is also About being precise and good movement, not Only unblockable attacks
Sonic’s side- and down-specials actually do have very different functionalities, but unless you’re a Sonic main, they’re gonna look and feel the exact same to you, which is the problem.
Not just that
True however Homing attack is different and an iconic attack of modern Sonic and Dreamcast Sonic
id say change the side B spin dash, since theres so much more downsides to it than down B spindash
@@braindeadduck plus down b spindash feels so much more natural and faithful to sonic
Makes sense they’re like the same to me.
The one with Sonic honestly makes me think about all the cool moves he could do more.
Like maybe one of his smash attacks is his famous “Sonic Wind” that can basically be similar to Mario’s fireball except it’s, well wind.
Sonic's fix is so freaking simple.
1. He poses after homming attacks like Incinaroar.
2. He drops rings when hit like in Sonic the Fighters.
3. Sonic's side special becomes Boost. Working like Banjo's. It has a meter that refills with rings he collects. Meaning he has to take damage but gains invincablity for the attack.
Wtf, if he poses, yo can't do combos :(
@@loist4475 Worth it
With this Smash being the first to feature *_THREE_* Links, I'm honestly a bit disappointed with Toon Link's kit, despite him being my main.
For starters, they changed his forward smash so it would be unique while Link and Young Link would share the old 2 swing attack. Rather than utilize the Skull Hammer or some other reference that would tie Toon Link to his home series more, they gave him a generic single swing. There *is* an upward swing in Wind Waker they could have based this off of, where he steps forward and does a spin to give the attack more momentum behind it, but the attack in Ultimate simply doesn't line up.
Second, they changed his down smash. In previous entries, adult Link's down smash was a single powerful hit, with the front sending you vertically and the back a bit more horizontally. Toon Link's was unique in that the front hit was weak, sending you behind him and into the back hit, which sent you horizontally (similar to Cloud's down smash). Rather than keep that unique aspect of Toon Link, they made it similar in utility to adult Link's and Young Link's, with either side launching the opponent away.
Third, Arrows. Both Link and Young Link have gimmicks with their arrows, Link being able to fire two arrows (referencing his ability to use bows that fired multiple arrows) and Young Link having Fire Arrows, similar to Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Toon Link, however, completely lacks any unique gimmick with his arrows, other than "they fly through the air slower and go a bit further uncharged". It would have been interesting if Toon Link's bow, while slower, could fire Ice Arrows. Not charging them much wouldn't result in freezing, but a full charge (and being past a high enough percent) could result in freezing your opponent, making them an actual threat offstage as his current ones barely have knockback even at full charge.
Last, he's the Hero of the Wind, but that's barely referenced at all! His stage entrance is him appearing in an EXPLOSION (which... why exactly?). He has the Wind Waker as a taunt and victory animation, but if you asked which characters had elements of wind to them? Robin, Hero, and Mii Swordfighter to name a few.
His entrance with him exploding I'm pretty sure is referencing him getting shot out of the canon, but done more dramatically I guess. Also since the gale boomerang is no longer in use by Link, Toon Link should have inherited it for the wind aspect and to set him apart more. And I like your ice arrow idea!
@@GBDupree I've heard people say it references that, I dunno, I'd love if his entrance was him crashing on stage in a barrel but the bomb explosion's just weird.
And thanks! With Young Link having fire arrows, Toon Link having ice arrows would be a nice contrast. Shame that's not something we could see till next Smash!
@@greentoonlink I think the bombexplosions are a reference to explosions being all over the place in windwaker. You have explosions, towers have explosions and enemy boats have explosions. And I think in phantom hourglass and spirit tracks(sequelgames, one with the same link and one with a new link 100 years later), there are even regular enemies that have explosions, but I am not sure.
That Ice arrow idea is rad. It would mean that each Link has a special arrow: fire for Young Link, Ice for Toon Link, and Ancient for normal Link (in Final Smash). Also, since Ancient arrows are functionally very similar to Light arrows, that would basically represent the traditional three magic arrow types as seen in OoT, MM, TWW, etc. To top it all off, normal arrows would still be used in Link's side B. Cool stuff.
Yeah I'm the same way. I played a lot of Tink in Smash 4 and switched over to Young Link because I love the versatility of his speed and range. Toon Link just doesn't have anything that makes him stand out anymore.
It is very dissapointing to see Sonic's representation in Smash so half baked and very afterthought.
I couldn't verify if this is true but apparently the only Sonic game Sakurai played was Sonic 06, and if that's the case I feel that has contributed to Sonic's very derivative design for years. Since First impressions are a huge factor and considering how all over the place Sonic's fanbase has, with a large chunk loving the Classic 2D games and hating on the 3D ones, equal amounts vice versa, I don't think Sakurai would ever have incentive to try out any other Sonic games, including the ones very highly praised like Sonic Generations or Mania. Again I have to clarify this is based on if the rumors are true.
I do want to make a big point however. You can totally find a well designed character not fun to play and love playing a badly designed one. I don't like playing as Link but I love playing as Sonic, despite agreeing on the points made in each video.
So basically Sakura based sonic desgin off of sonic 06(the most broken sonic game tied with sonic boom)........*both bruh and oof*
Being a Sonic fan is a divine punishment
About the part that he only played 06, that statement legit made me feel bad for him (even though I think the game really isnt as bad as people say it is) so I did some research, and he stated in an interview in 2007 after Sonics announcement that he had recently finished 06 on PS3, but that he had of course played the older titles (probably the Genesis trilogy), and he also pointed out that he played Sonic the Fighters, Shadow The Hedgehog (again, rip) and "other supplementary games to the series"
No idea what games he is referring to with that statement but aight.
Source: sourcegaming.info/2016/07/24/sonic-the-hedgehog-joins-the-battle/
Sonic's design was obviously and heavily lifted from the classics with SpinDash and SpinCharge him being in a ball for a lot of the match and his run animation being directly lifted from Sonic CD.
True. But remember what they say? “Either Sonic IS a God, or could KILL God, and I DO NOT CARE IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE”
11:16 Damn that Ridley just wouldn't stop bullying that little Mac
More Ridley bullying Little Mac
th-cam.com/video/BYm8tBiebU0/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/2c-fyqqhFOI/w-d-xo.html
@@commandergrab396(as a mac main)
🖕😡🖕
Late to the party, but I always thought the best thing for Mac would be to shift his focus from "no air game" to "gimmicky air game." Improve the landing lag, like everyone says. But _nerf his air control,_ while improving his air speed and making his aerials *_significantly_* better, I'm talking full overhaul, speed, power, hitboxes, animations, you name it. The gimmick being that his aerials _commit_ harder than most, when he feet leave the ground he's definitely going that way, and while he's predictable, he's still dangerous and has options that need to be respected. It would also retain his poor recovery, while making his approach and neutral options properly feasible.
But hey, I dunno, I only play For Glory and dunk on Macs all the time, that's the only experience I have.
I really enjoyed the fact that you went over the language issue with Hero. I've seen a lot of people on twitter around the time he was released talking about "just learn the phrases of whatever country you're going to compete in." Anyone who has actually learned another language knows that this is unrealistic. They underplay the amount of time it will take to even learn those phrases (especially if we're talking about an entirely different writing system like most Asian languages compared to the Latin alphabet.) Even after you memorize them, you still will have very slow recognition, as is mentioned in the video. In order to increase that, you will have to spend weeks in preparation to use it for a single country. I can only assume that this line of thinking is used by people who have never tried to or succeeded in learning another language. That's not to say that everyone should try to learn another language, but just that people shouldn't be speaking on things that they have no experience in.
To be fair, this is just another one of those issues that really only impact the competitive scene. It's not worth fixing if it doesn't negatively impact the game for most players.
to also be fair, the number of players this seriously affects is miniscule in the extreme. the competitive scene is already a tiny fraction of sales.
the competitive playerbase who are travelling internationally to a country where they don't know the local language?
yeah, I don't think designing with international competitive players is something the dev team should have in mind, if I'm frank. top players simply don't matter that much. (in fact, I'd argue that no issue that affects top players only, should be on the minds of the dev team, they're that few)
But don't all of the moves on Hero's down b use different amounts of MP? Couldn't players just learn how much each move uses to see anticipate the move the Hero player will use?
@@wiimaster06 Problem is that both players can only see the spell cost if said spell is highlighted by the Hero Player. They really should have violated traditional JRPG convention on this one, and just made the spell costs visible for all spells on the Menu. You also have top decking which is a thing unfortunately. Hero's Menu UI is the encapsulation of stupid problems with easy fixes lmao
@@theimpersonator7086 Yeah never thought of that part
Sonic is actually designed really well in smash ultimate. I, like a lot of you, thought, he was designed poorly, or uninspired. This, however, is just how he appears on the surface. When you use him the right way, it all makes sense. Sonic is designed to be, in a sense, a “moving projectile”.
That’s why a lot of his moves and animations use his, “spiked ball”. Sonic, in his home series is the fastest guy around right? In smash, his moveset is designed to link his attacks together. The linking of the moves allow him to transition between attacks more fluidly. Making you feel as if you’re performing one fluid motion.
Making you feel as if, you, actually are Sonic. The linking also doubles as an unpredictable advantage in Sonic’s favor towards an opponent. When each move you’re using has the “spiked ball” startup, it makes for a tricky mind game on the opponent’s end. They have to try and guess what’s an attack, and what type of attack is coming next. You trick and confuse the guess of the opponent by constantly, “rolling up”. They don’t know if you’re just short hoping, spin dashing, spin charging, or homing in. Making it harder to dodge, evade, or block attacks from Sonic, simply because; you’re taken by surprise of what’s about to come next. But the key, is variety and mixing up attacks with him.
Lastly, his run/dash speed gives him both a boost to offense and defense. You can easily rush in to deal your punishments, when needed. You can easily run away, foxtrot, or just evade, without wasting spot dodges or rolls, which WILL force enemy wiffs. A perfect time to rush in, catch em off guard, and punish. That’s his game, and he does it very, very well.
(He’s one of my main 5)
Ew you must be from reddit eauuggh
@@Lunacy4 Wrong, I do understand the character design though.
@@Lunacy4 says the weeb.
@@Lunacy4 I wonder why people use "redditor" as an insult. That's like using "gamer" as an insult, both are far too broad to accurately generalize, and have FAR too many subtypes to really have a single set of consistent traits.
A moving projectile, not a moving cannonball
As a dedicated Sonic main and fan, this was really accurate and much appreciated!!
I think what makes Little Mac worse is that he doesn't have any depth to his kit. He doesn't have many combos and he is really boring to fight. It might've been more cool if he had a cancel system like Ryu, Ken and Terry or if he could do grounded combos so he isn't just a character who mashes on you unless you camp him out
He is top tier in stamina mode. Their is little to no knockback.
I stand by this. Little Macs design has always been bad but smash 4 somewhat remedied this by granting him legitimate combos and slick movement options when optimized; which made him excellent in footsies and a threat in neutral.
But alas in Ultimate, they killed his combos (for good reason.) and his movement options have been limited. No more perfect/momentum pivots and running past opponents in this game which only harms his already limited options in a platform fighter. Mind you, I don’t feel as cheated with this as the entire casts movement options have also technically been limited as a whole.
TL:DR Little Mac in ultimate is not only worse than his S4 counterpart, but he’s also not as fun. Dudes gameplan in this game is just whiff punishing with armored smash attacks with no depth. This is why I have moved to greener pastures AKA the Shotos (Ryu and Ken.)
Is it weird that I never had a problem with Olimar's animation and the supposed lack of impact in his strong attacks? Perhaps it's due to the fact that I was already so used to his original animations back in pikmin, that when I saw the way his smash attacks looked in brawl, it completely matched what I expected to look like: simple, but with powerful results, and this is a thing in the pikmin games too, since there, he can only throw and direct a pikmin as his attack options involving pikmin: it's even more simple there, but powerful enough to, well, defeat even the strongest enemies in the game, that are much bigger than him(that also requires pikmin management). Not only that, but considering he's already among the smallest character in the game, it makes sense that Olimar's display of raw strength don't match with, say, Peach's display of strength, so personally, I can't imagine how they could give a little more "impact" on his animation without looking less faithful to the character. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think they were trying to make him comparable to other figthers, and since he is canonically the smallest fighter in smash, I think it's fine and refreshing for him to have a different design philosophy.
And the core casual player won't pay attention to this kind of details. Olimar falls under lots of the design philosophy of smash games that makes the game a pain to play competitively.
I agree. I think the reason Olimar's inclusion kinda sticks out like a sore thumb in this video is that, while the critiques of all the other characters here are mechanical in nature, the critiques of Olimar are all aesthetic. That does not by any means mean that these Olimar critiques are invalid, but rather that the kind of design overhaul that would intuitively follow these critiques would look very different for Olimar than it would for the other 4 fighters.
I think the misconception here is that Olimar doesn’t have this massive strength. Yes, he can take down huge creatures in his source material, but that’s with the help of up to 100 pikmin, not 3. Each pikmin on their own hardly carries that kind of strength, so with only 3 pikmin, Olimar’s strength is misconstrued. That’s not to say that he can’t have an Fsmash that kills at 80%, but when it’s a single red or purple pikmin that is nearly unreactable due to Olimar’s fantastic frame data and similar animations, it’s a bit hard to support that. Defying standard design conventions is usually a good thing, and Olimar could be a well-designed, unique character, but as it stands, his design has some troubling flaws
I was looking for a comment like this. I don't agree with Olimar's at all, and like another comment said, his inclusion here seems like an aesthetic reason, a somewhat petty one at that
I honestly think olimar would largely be fixed by swapping the purple pikmin for stone pikmin with more heavy hiteffects and swapping animations between two attacks. So yeah, that spot in the list was kinda boring and uninteressting.
Pretty much since Little Mac existed in Smash, I've been saying he's the absolutely worst designed character in the franchise. However, I hadn't thought of the point about his options turning usually correct decisions into wrong ones. I knew there was something frustrating about them, but couldn't put my finger on how to express it. So thank you for giving me even more ways to explain why his design is so awful lol
I didn't realize how bad Sonic's design was until this video
Okay...what's wrong with Sonic's down throw or up smash? Both seem to fit just fine. They've even removed two ball moves in dash attack and down smash since his debut. The former of which actually made sense to be a ball given his rolling ability. The only moves I'd really say are an issue is essentially two spin dashes.
Great video. Thanks for the shoutout! I definitely wasn't expecting that haha. I absolutely agree with your number one choice as Sonic. His entire series needs a fundamental reintroduction into the smash franchise. I think the problem is how he was added so late into Brawl's development but now they don't want to change him too much as to not alienate him from the core players. Nevertheless, it is a great injustice. Not only his moveset but his stages, music selection and remixes, no new characters etc.
I really enjoyed that video and it obviously had a lot of passion put into it, no worries at all!
I disagree with Sonic having his series reintroduced in Smash. For a third party character, he's already well represented. His moveset is really the only thing that needs tweaking.
Durag Dee Castlevania is a third party game, but got not only two characters, but Dracula as a boss. Eggman who is an iconic villain in video game history was just relegated to a spirit , while he had the great potential of being a boss or playable character. Tails who is Sonic's best friend was also left behind to be a spirit
At this point I see this as true injustice
@@thomaszboss3411 And now Cloud gets more rep than Sonic now
NINTENDO WTH IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH SONIC
ALSO I’M UPSET THAT A FF REP GOT IN INSTEAD OF F*CKING DOOM SLAYER
I’ve always thought Luigi is based off of His game because of how he is a bait and punish. When a Ghost try to attack Luigi, he punishes them for approaching him and it’s just the same in smash bros. Once he gets you with that vacuum, you’re gonna have a bad time
Yea but the main problem is the 0-death combo. Sure, make him bait and punish, but don't give him a 50-50 DI read 0-death. I love Luigi, he's the character I learned smash with, but the combo is nothing short of ridiculous. To make him more balanced, he should probably get a slightly buffed recovery or slightly better airspeed in exchange for the 0-death.
*Megalovania starts playing*
Bait and punish isn't the problem, or he would have mentioned every bait-and-punish character. The issue is just the 0-to-death (which also forces the rest of his kit to be worse to keep him balanced).
@@zombie-bv9pr I agree with this so much. His airspeed is absolutely horrible, because if it wasn't how would you fight someone able to kill you from grab at zero? You basically need to outcamp him with many characters, especially since his zair easily truecombos into his grab, so even throwing out a hitbox won't save you.
milez000782 its a gimmick and a fairly bad one at that. If you really have a problem dealing with this move just get hit by some stray fireballs. You get out of the 0-deatch range and luigi cannot follow up after his projectile. All you stupid fucks are just such crybabys that cant adapt to shit. Rather than learning to deal with something everyone cries for nervs. If his 0-death is so good why is it that we do not see a absolute domination of the character. His gimmick is far worse than anything else most top tiers have in their kit. I would even go further to say it is more annoying to deal with pikachu than one laggy as fuck grab
I always liked the idea of PJiggles Olimar UI idea and I'm surprised it wasn't implemented
For little Mac I think an interesting concept for him might be that one of his aerials force enemies back to the ground without causing a spike something like a weaker form of a grapple where he pulls them down with him if he connects and there is ground below him ( maybe like ganondorfs side b but the move instead of grabbing forces them down just long enough to potentially hit with one of Macs weaker setups)
As a little Mac main. I've always HATED the "realism" design philosophy they gave him. You already gave him the means to be closely resemble a boxer (which ain't much, just methodical movement and punching, to be basic af), why go even further by implementing things boxers CANT do? In a game where almost every character has been given leeway in their design to fit the balance of smash: olimar is 1000x his normal size; Kirby, Palutena, and Rosalina being knocked out by mortals; Mewtwo, a 300lb Pokemon, made light as a feather; etc. It confuses me that they don't give him that leeway as well. Buff his bad options, and tone down his good options for balance. He's still a boxer by the end of the day.
Personally, I play Mac because I love boxer archetypes in fighting games (and high mobility). As long as he still looks like a boxer (and is still fast), I wouldn't care if they reworked him, I'll still main him.
Not to mention my man becomes hulk in his ultimate form lmao so a rework with some new skills doesnt sound bad to me
It could have been really cool if they game him some of the signature moves of the other fighters in his series, like Macho Man's clothsline punch for example.
@@gengarisnotinsmash... Now that I think about it, that would be cool. Like make him a mix of the raging bull who mac is kind of based on and Ippo from Hajime no Ippo since that guy learns some pretty badass moves like corkscrew blow, heartbreak shot, thunder jolt or the dempsy roll lol
this is what people need to say more. you don't regularly see wii fit, villager, or other characters like that who thrive in the air, so why is this ONLY on little mac
Then again Smash has never made sense, as a kid I always thought Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were like Son and Father in Melee since they shared the same moves with different speed and weight.
I think that the way to fix Mac is first and foremost to give him a good recovery. Make side-b and up-b both go farther, as well as making neutral-b charge quicker and have less lag. His design philosophy is that he can't hit as hard in the air, not that he is supposed to die super quickly, so I don't think that giving him a good recovery messes with that.
The next step is to improve his ground game. Most of Little Mac's grounded normals are actually below average, despite that supposing to be his main strength. Make up-tilt not minus on hit at low percents. Make his side-tilt safe on shield like those of so many other characters. Make down-tilt a good combo and spacing tool like it was in Smash 4. Let jab be a decent kill move with rabid jab hitting upward and gentleman jab hitting forward.
The last step is to remove, or at least reduce, the super armour on his smash attacks, disempower KO punch and make it not go through shields and greatly improve his counterattack. Little Mac should be about playing smart, not unga bunga. Having armour on some of his strongest attack, or having them go through shield is not the way to go. Instead, if counter was made to come out quicker, like Incineroar's, and maybe hit a little harder, it could be a rewarding defensive tool for use on the ground and in the air. Again, Mac shouldn't need to be completely vulnerable in the air, just unable to attack well from the air.
I feel like his KO punch is fine if you just tone down the power, because it’s like terry’s go that can go away under a few conditions
Please work at Nintendo
I feel like that for your last points, yes and no. Yes Armour and Pure power really don't fit him as a character, but no as in they could be utilized in other ways to allow a better version. Example, the KO Punch in his game was always destructive power that broke even the opponent's guards to deal great damage, but if used at the right times, could obliterate them instantly. That's why I think it translated well, having the Power to go through the shield (though I would prefer just breaking it to emphasize the opportunity strike he makes.)
For armour, I feel it should be weakened yes. Weakened as in strong attacks can break through but weak attacks can't. I know something like that isn't in the games really but to counter a weak hit is a powerful one does kinda help him better. The biggest thing I think he should have though is a dodge attack, like how Terry has. It wouldn't focus on a strong hit like his counter would, but instead focus on range, giving him a quick jab as he finishes his dodge all around him, including a good chunk of the air around him. That would be to counter those who try to drop-in on him with either a strong move or an aireal, and lead him up to counter-attack.
Overall, yes, his recovery should be boosted to an extent, make his ground move easier to hit, combo, and kill in certain scenarios, but overall make him an opportunist fighter who waits for the perfect time to strike. His ground moves should be powerful as a result but really should be saved for when the opponent isn't firing a super-powered strike and instead allowing him to make an opportune play with them.
@@TheYoshiman222 I didn't know that KO punch broke through an opponent's guard in his source game, so it would make sense if it still did that, but with toned down damage and/or knockback. A dodge attack like Terry's would make sense, but its unlikely that sort of mechanical addition would be implemented in a patch, so I didn't mention it.
@@TheBriguy1998 honestly, his armor is so satisfying, especially when I beat the shit outta people who thought he was gonna lose the match and went easy, I think he's good at surviving, just stay center stage, I survive around 160 to 180 with Mac, at most 200,because I utilize his Armour, counter, and dodges right, so sometimes in my head I thought how is this character bad I'm Cleary doing amazing, but yea I see the points, he has a bad recovery but I always recover with him, I play like the wii punch out Mac, and time percisely so that's why I hate the Mac is the worst stuff, idk it's not even my ego or anything, just the way I play with Mac is so good, that when I don't lose, I'm confused how he is considered a bad character, suppose someone edge guarded, falling or fast falling side b, falling beneath the ledge up b, maybe wall jump, counter, air dodge, he has options oppose to people like bowser, who only have up b, like he doesn't have a pacman recovery, but at times its more reliable than someone like luigi or Mario, because at times those are too easy to edge guard, macs other than stats issue, is that you can't do side b jump side b, or ragdoll side b, the side b can only b done once in the air and not again, it's so stupid, and yea his up b has no horizontal movement, most players with Mac when near the ledge do, up b, and can't make it close enough, but me, I go as close to under it then do up b, because ik horizontally it wouldn't work that's way u usually survive because I time correctly, but if Mac had less armour and the ko was nerfed, ehhhh maybe he wouldn't be to special, for me with Mac either I win really fast or lose normally, so hes pretty fun, I don't get those gimpy edge guards, but tbh gimps work on alot if people, even pacman himself, look at Link, he's easy to edge guard, or Isabelle or villager, just pop the balloons, I think one other issue is that Mac can't egde guard off the stage without dying, but can only egde guard on the stage if the opponent goes directly to his smash attack, his edge guarding isn't that, good, nor his throws are, but I'll say if your a good reader, Mac is op at times,
Maybe I haven't looked through the comments enough, but when it comes to Kirby in this comment section specifically, I've seen the discussion of "Kirby is a beginner character", "Kirby should be more than that" and a few other points with the reasonings behind them.
However, can we all just agree that adding more ability moves to kirby's moveset would overall be an objectively AND subjectively better thing?
The reason we think Kirby is a beginner character is because of how easy he is to use, but his skill cap doesn't seem to >show< as high as others. Kirby is consistently bottom or lower tier, and even if you don't rely on tiers there's just something that feels off.
I don't like that most of his moves are bland kicks. Give me more substance, flare, flashiness, just... Anything!
How does he not have the slide kick as his Down tilt?
How does he not have the Air Bullet as a Forward Air?
Why is his ground jump so low and not high as it should be?
Why is Final Cutter such a mediocre recovery move when Hi-jump would be such a better replacement?
Even if we remove those kicks that make him intuitive and stuff for moves that represent his games' abilities, it doesn't mean that Kirby's moveset will stop being intuitive.
His Side Tilt could be Yo-yo's neutral attack. It attacks to the side, so that doesn't change much from Kirby's actual Side Tilt, but actually gives him some good range.
His Down Air could be either Fighter's or Ninja's downward kick. It attacks downwards and the latter could very well spike opponents still, and Kirby has relatively a good recovery to use in case he misses (and both can allow him to bounce off of an opponent if it does hit), so what'd be wrong there?
Personally I think the excuse of "A lot of his moves are based on the Fighter ability" works, but just *barely*. Looking at it still feels super bland. besides, it's not represented as well as it should. Where's the aura extensions? Why doesn't Kirby's back air have the range it does in his Games? Why isn't the Moon Somersault Kick (Up Air) as accurate either?
There is a lot you could add to Kirby's moveset so that it stands out, and also keep him simple to understand.
His main shtick is that he can copy abilities and represents a series anyone could theoretically jump into.
Like I said before, adding abilities wouldn't change that, and it honestly bugs me when I see Fan games stick by the source's moveset when we've seen they can implements ideas they want, like and find appropriate. They change Mario's Down B to his cyclone because Fludd isn't "cool", they give Luigi his Poltergust because it feels right and it's a fun idea. Sonic's moveset has entirely new moves (Side B being completely different from Down B).
And yet Kirby is based on his Brawl iteration specifically, replicating the bland kicks because it's faithful. In this situation, I'd like to say "Screw faithful, make him more interesting to look at!". But I never say this because... I'm just one guy with this opinion, they spend lots of time, effort and resources making what they do, and I appreciate it where it counts.
I just have these thoughts every now and then, because I see the great movesets from characters introduced in Smash 4 and Ultimate, compare them to Kirby, and feel disappointed.
TL;DR: I'm a passionate guy about Kirby and feel like a lot can be improved without making him unintuitive.
Y'know, I think the hardest part about accepting Kirby's design flaws is that his creator made him the way he wanted him to be.
@@Supershadow301 It does feel that way, it's true.
But part of me also can't help but think that an early mindset (Smash 64) and especially time constrains (Melee) did not give us the Kirby we could've hoped for.
It's like Ganondorf. He could've been someone who floats around, throws projectiles and overall represents the LoZ series' Ganondorf more, but even now he's still partially a Captain Falcon semi-clone. It's because the 13-month work timeframe in Melee didn't allow him to be different, and he has only branched off slightly with each new entry (with pretty much no difference between Brawl and 4).
Personally I don't agree with the supposed reasoning of keeping the movesets relatively similar between games for the sake of "not alienating those who played previous games". It pretty much holds back older characters from being as unique as the ones from Smash 4 and Ultimate. Lord knows someone like Sonic could use many touch ups.
I don't remember where I read it, but I do vividly recall that reason being brought up in an interview at least once.
The best compromise would be keeping the Ganondorf moveset, but giving it to another character. That way we'd get to keep a Heavy Captain Falcon, and have an accurate depiction of Ganondorf
@@dislikebomb6680
Honestly I feel the same. Unfortunately it hasn't happened though, and I still wonder why, considering the simple solution. Heck, Blood Falcon or Black Shadow'd fit the bill pretty well.
I agree with this entire comment
I don’t know it would be pretty hard to turn around in a f-zero car
only if you dont tap the gas and use L and R. (coming from a veteran F-Zero racer)
Yeah, the overall not so great playstyle aside; I was petty dissapointed when they didn't rework Sonics moveset for Ultimate at all.
There was so much potential. There are plenty of games they could've taken inspiration from, but they gave him way too many spindash-moves.
I feel like most fangames (like Smash Crusade and Flash), as well as mods (like Project M) did a much better job at giving him a diverse, and most importantly fun moveset that encourages a more aggressive playstyle.
Tornados, Light Speed Dashes, or his axe and spin kicks from Sonic Battle are all things that could be (and, in the cases of the fangames I've mentioned, have been) implemented in his moveset, but all of this is absent from the official Smash games, which is weird considering how well most characters are represented.
It's a shame, really.
It's not weird considering how much of a hassle Ultimate is to develop.
Durag Dee
But look at what they done to Bowser and Yoshi during the transition from Brawl to Smash 4. Sonic deserves that same overhaul.
@@duragdee2760 yeah.But sonic is the biggest erd party character and we all know how hype he was in brawl.But at this point.50% of sonic as a character uses a ball animation.
It's really strange to me how they clearly went to lengths to diversify characters who had really samey move sets (like ZSS getting her f-smash changed from "moar wipp" to a double-kick). And now Sonic's had three games where half of his specials are nearly indistinguishable. Just... why?
And it feels wrong because every other third party character is designed better than him like seriously they have gone out of the Way to make these new third party franchises exciting for like Joker, Hero, Banjo, and Terry even Mega man, PAC-man, Ryu, Cloud, and even Bayonetta was payed attention too, but Sonic not one bit and as a huge Sonic fan that’s horrible to me and others because:
A. Sonic is one of the most popular video game characters and they treat him like This?
B. Heavy design overlaps like in the video and while a lot of attacks come from sonic the fighters, but no change what so ever
C.Sonic is extremely strong in his games and is a thrill seeker, yet he just smiles and as time pasted Sonic was turning into a ball less but nope, we still him doing that (Ex. Stage entrance, one victory animation Nair, Up Smash, Down Throw, N-Special, Side Special, and Down Special
D: NOBODY AND I MEAN NOBODY PLAYS HIM AND/OR MAINS HIM ALSO BANNED HIM and the only people who do main him only do it because they like Sonic that much but come on, also that’s how you know that a character is badly designed however Nintendo(Not Sakurai) gave us the middle finger and said we won’t change him because REASONS?!?!?!?!?
Finally, so many people want other Sonic characters to be playable like Tails, Knuckles, Dr. Eggman, and Shadow yet not one they put in Dracula and Rathos before Eggman? Why? And Shadow is STILL AN ASSIST TROPHY even though you save him not showing in assist trophy position til the last smash direct before the game came out
Ugh Sonic couldve been awesome af
Too much missed potential imo. He doesnt feel like a good enough mashup of all 3 counterparts: Classic Adventure and Boost. He needs a rehaul imo
I mean, that is basically because he is just classic sonic with the physical power of adventure sonic. If they actually did a mashup, he would likely be better.
@@lpfan4491 He only resembles Classic Sonic through his spindash (and the fact that Smash is 2D gameplay.
And what is the diffrence? Sonic did not change that much before boost and that he is a 2d sonic with the spindash already makes him closest to classic sonic. Well, before sonic4 came out anyways.
@@lpfan4491 I really don't see how he is "classic sonic with the physical power of adventure sonic". In the end he's just modern Sonic (as in character-wise) with some move/abilities directly taken from a wide variety of games, but most moves being generic/original extrapolations of his character.
So, he has the modern Sonic body, the spin-dash from classic Sonic games but also some more modern games, an altered copy of the spin-dash, the homing attack from modern games, some attacks from Sonic the Fighters and maybe Sonic Battle (I can't remember), Super Sonic from...the whole franchise really, a bunch of stuff he doesn't actually do in any games but can be reasonably assumed he could do, the ability to create a spring out of thin air which is definitely original to Smash but references the games well, and all of that controlled on a 2D plane.
But just cause it's 2D or he doesn't have the boost doesn't mean he's classic Sonic at a base level. I'd be more inclined to say that if he had the classic visual design and more moves associated with said design.
I think the fact that he can't boost but can spin-dash and homing attack puts him most at the level of his Adventure 1/2 incarnation, but even then those games didn't have any 2D sections unlike classic Sonic and more modern Sonic, so I don't know in the end.
They could focus on improving Little Mac's recovery over his air combat. That lets him still play as a grounded fighter, but gives him more longevity with which to make use of his strength on the ground, and lets him survive long enough to get more KO punches.
As for air combat, maybe give him *one* good move to punish people who are on ledges trying to force him into the air. Another option might be to give him a "jumping attack" thing that gives him usable air moves for the *first* attack after jumping (but only for a short window). That would, again, let him do something against opponents in the air, but he still wants to get back on the ground ASAP.
He could also get a "dive" similar in concept to Kirby's rock move as a way to safely get back on the ground.
Im surprised Ganondorf isn't on this list, hes basically a slow heavyweight form of captain falcon with some slightly different attacks, I think they had such an incredible opportunity to design him to be canonical to the series instead of just a big brute, I think if he was canonical to his series such as using magic and all his other features he could not only be a well designed character, but a very good one too
Sonic as a fighter SHOULD be awesome. If he got a rework for smash he could have soooo much potential....
Anytime I play against a Sonic, I might as well grab a pillow and sleep becuase we can only dream of getting a better design for him
Yeah.Just redesign him already.He should've redesigned sonic and released a DLC along the movie's release.Smash could've easily spelled an extra 6M copies.
4:37 They should make an icon for each spell or spell family placed next to each name on the list
5:03 Dude what the heck lol.
God, im high
3 months younger, and it already has 100k more views than the "best designed characters" vid.
We on the internet really do enjoy negative reviews
(no, I'm not complaining, that would be massively hypocritical)
I would have added Ridley honestly.
Sakurai's intention for the character design was for the character to feel violent and brutal and while the philosophy can be see in the animations for Space Pirate Rush and Skewer these moves, SPR's case of being unrewarding to land not killing until nearly 200% with proper DI and easily mashed out of and Skewer's case of being hilariously precise, the most precise move in the series to date leaves Ridley feeling a little unrewarded or in an overused term "cucked" out of his dream identity a lot of the time. In fact most Ridley players have almost completely opted for a playstyle that revolves almost entirely around spamming his neutral air using it nearly 75% of the match for neutral, combo starting, comboing, combo finishing, edge guarding, killing at this point neutral air pretty much single handedly defines Ridley.
In addition to all of this Ridley's size makes him very easy to hit, his floaty nature makes him easier to juggle than usual and his low weight means Ridley will likely be dying after only 1 or 2 interactions with the opponent on top of all of this Ridley's recovery can be seen as lackluster at best which really shouldn't be the case for a character this easy to hit, this light and this easy to combo.
Ridley winds up feeling like a glass house, easy to hit, easy to break and with a game plan so obvious you can literally see through it, he's a heavy without any of the typical "heavy bullshit" other heavies get to counterweight their inherent dimension flaws.
I don't play competitively, though I have played Ridley for at least 70% of my battles. What I can say is he is lackluster compared to many common characters online, but he's very fun and got some badass animations. His upsmash is Ridley doing a frontflip which is weird but it's metal ASF.
BUT PLEAASE SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING ABOUT HIS DOWNAIR OH MY. It's supposed to be like in Prime, but at least there he got a massive shockwave. In smash it's slow-ish, stalls, has the tiniest hitbox ever, is easily beated out by any move and has got a massive amount of endlag. I'd be okay with all this if the meteorhitbox was at least active a bit longer, but that sucks too. This makes me really sad because in practically every metroid game he's got a massive downward attack, while in smash his nair is practically a substitute for all his other aerials, especially for dair, which makes him very one-dimensional.
I Still love Sakurai to bits for putting him in tho
I feel like they overestimated his size and range. Like his attacks are very "over the top" but not necessarily that good. Meanwhile he's combo food.
Funny thing is making him heavier would make it even easier to combo him.
In a way, Sonic is faithful to his home series in the fact that most Sonic games are poorly designed lol
no no, he’s got a point
Woke
Bruh Momento
Most sonic games are poorly designed?The only poorly designed ones are probably forces,06 and boom.I dare you name others.If you are going to continue like this chances you Wil be the reason sonic is still stuck with the lame smash moveset and nostalgia pandering games.
Sakurai with the big-brain plays.
What I'd do to Mac:
- Actual combo game again, even if nothing crazy (F for smash 4 downtilt)
- Armor instead of superarmor on smashes, KO punch less explosive (but still strong)
- Ground centric, not ground reliant. Air game bad, but still very useful. Potentially aerials that can lead into combos and/or grounded moves, and aren't so terrible they're unusable, but nothing that'd kill someone or be crazy good.
- Better recovery, but still bad. For example, being able to side-b and then up-b was good, but he should get his side-b back after being hit again, and maybe have up-b grab ledge a little bit easier, but nothing much.
I don't know if this would make him GOOD, but it'd at least make him funner to play and fight, and doesn't stray TOO far away from his core design.
Couldn’t agree more with the intro. Ganondorf is my favorite character to play as. But his moveset just doesn’t resemble his Legend of Zelda appearances.
I’m hoping if they ever make another game in the future, they introduce Captain Falcon’s villain, Black Shadow, and give him Ganon’s old moveset (minus the smash attacks). And then give Ganon proper Moves he has from Legend of Zelda. Hopefully a float too.
The problem is that ganondorf does not really have many moves that would be fitting. He is usually just a heavy hitter. Not to mention that cap falcons moveset has barely anything to do with his origingame. I think the most they could do for ganondorf to be more faithful would be to replace aerial down B with the slamming down-move he does in oot, change his side b for an ikelike-attack where he can still walk around and make his downsmash him slamming the sword into the ground like in hyrule warriors.
@@lpfan4491 "Ganondorf does not really have many moves that would be fitting"? How do you figure? He's one of the most prominent recurring villains in gaming history and has a larger arsenal than almost any other character on the roster. He could fill pretty much any niche they wanted to put him in. Huge array of projectile and shockwave attacks would make him a great zoner. He's got so many shape-shifting forms he could easily be another Pokemon Trainer. If you really wanted he could be turned into a melee-spacing swordfighter easy peasy.
My personal favorite would be to rework him into a mindgame-heavy grappler with a teleport. That would be the optimal Dorf experience, imo- being able to combine cunning and raw power into a devious and flashy-looking playstyle while still being usable outside of casual play.
@@Paulunatr Making him like.pokemon trainer could be really interesting lol
LPFan they could literally just add his OoT float and a reflecting cape to his current moveset and I’d be happy. But yeah future Smash iterations could start from scratch and go full pig ganon or windwaker ganon.
I do not take shapeshift into account because ganon could literally be another character entirely(who probably would be the character you describe) and they don't do multiple characters like that anymore aside from pokemontrainer, but that is only because they wanted to bring back everything.
As a luigi main, I agree that the 0 to death is dumb, and would be fine if he got buffed in return for him losing the 0 to death, but cyclone invincibility stays, over half the move is end lag, so if you bait it out you can get a better punish than just a normal follow up.
I think Luigi should use his poltergust more in his kit. If you agree, what move would you replace with it?
Donald J Gump Official probably like f tilt for me
I’d say buff down air and his air speed, down air so zero to death doesn’t work at 0 against all characters cause it would spike them into the ground , and buffed air speed to through him a bone and make disadvantage way better
@@ryanoj2708 I think he could do with an up b with increased range also. I don't think Luigi needs a poor disadvantage because he struggles against characters who outrange him anyway.
Donald J Gump Official up b is already kinda broken , but yeah I’d say buff air mobility and give him more landing options
Sonic in local co op: _I'm too weak_
Sonic in online: *UNLIMITED POWER*
Nope.Even offline sonic still was one of the best.
Mockrock: "Sonic could gain power as he speeds up." ROA's Speedrunner Mario: "I'm four parallel universes ahead of you"
There is no excuse for Mac being bad in the air if Villager and Snake exist
Snake is a big target in the air (for me anyways)
What do you mean? Those characters have completely different visions from Mac.
@@yungmuney5903 I think he means that neither of those characters are known for being aerial based fighters. Snake spends most of his games crawling and sneaking around but they still gave him good aerials in Smash
The Sonic concept he brings up is my issue with Ganondorf, as much as I love ganon in ultimate, he still doesn't feel as great as he should, he still feels tied to Captain Falcon, I want more magic or other tools for his kit!
I could be wrong, but part of me feels like Sonic not getting comparatively good treatment compared to the other 3rd party reps is largely a problem where Smash is primarily Japanese made, and the Japanese, while I don't think they hate Sonic, they don't care about Sonic as much as the West does. So part of it might be they keep Sonic in because he's a popular choice, but they take minimal effort with him because they don't entirely care about the character.
First of all you are right when you said Sonic isn’t get the good treatment compared to other third
Fun Fact: Sonic is the WORST DESIGNED THIRD PARTY
Second of all that shouldn’t feel right because Sakurai and his team do an amazing job with the DLC and everyone in general but Sonic it’s like he’s giving him the middle finger
@@mastrsonic375 It really shouldn't but as far as I can tell, Sakurai's experience with Sonic is more limited than, say, Mr. Bogard. Doesn't help Sakurai is the one who does a lot of the character design, so his passion is kinda a key thing, and if that's lacking, means the result will show.
Damn
A way to fix Little Mac is to make him more like Jigglypuff while Jigglypuff is obviously an air fighter but isn't completely useless on the ground, making his recovery Ganondorf level and making his aerials better
My ideal for the next smash game is giving most characters a redesign, while keeping their original version playable, which would function a bit like the echo fighter mechanic.
When the three fastest characters in he game are among the worst designed it makes you think that maybe compensating flaws in a characters kit with speed isn't that great of a design choice. I completely agree that using speed as a main design point makes for a character with limited expression as well as a fairly one dimensional game plan. Really hope that future title address this issue, as well as the opposite problem for most heavies in the cast. Ultimate Bowser is a great example of how this type of design can work but it sadly isn't reflected in most of the other fighters that share similar issues. Love your analysis work on the game as a whole and always enjoy watching your vids!
Captain Falcon is one of the best designed characters in several Smash games. The problem with his current iteration is actually that he's not fast enough (Specifically his dash animation).
Shakuria just slapped spee on sonic and nothing more,his initial dash is not even the fastest.Neither are his specials.
Wait what are the other two?????????
Nice one mate, I can hardly disagree with anything here. I can live with Little Mac being bad forever as he at least works well for the casual environment and free-for-all battles, and there are some turn-into-a-ball moves with Sonic that I'd like him to keep (nair and down throw get a pass by me), but generally you're spot on with everything said. Looking forward to the next one!
I think I know a way to fix Olimar.
Have him lean way back as he takes a deep breath to blow his whistle, and have him lean way forward as he blows into it. It might not have the same physicality of a regular attack, but it does have the wind-up and let-go type of extremes to sell the weight of it.
Overhaul sonic moveset, give him a boost meter, the more he moves the more it fills, make smash attacks and specials (only if special is fully charged on some) do more knock back or damage with the cost of some boost meter, like hero mana gauge but it fills faster (due to constant running) but his meter drains more boost so like 30 % of meter for a smash attack. And if you don’t have the boost requirement to get the boost then none will be used and the attack will not get more powerful. Or have him build the meter all the way up like arson and gain a speed and power boost with a changed special or two, or even changed smash attack. While the meter constantly drains you have this buff and the more specials and smashes you use the meter drains more and cannot build until it is depleted
Or give him a ring mechanic, that works the same way, just using rings to justify power, gaining rings from damage done, but with damage taken he loses them, the more he has the faster he goes or the more powerful his moves (like he is in the advance series). That would actually make have to be aggressive, with a better moveset that is actually aggressive and a system like one of these would give him momentum based gameplay because it rewards you for having control of the match
Honestly this could work wonders.
Just imagine sonic having something like arson gaining 50 rings and for 20 - 25 seconds he’s in super form, not invincible but able to have more mobility, a more powerful moveset, until he reverts. And reduced knockback.
They can make sonic really fun to play, just gotta be creative.
I don't think "the more he moves the more it fills" is a good way to fill his boost gauge. It'll likely result in people playing cat & mouse even more.
Seeing as there's no rings or wisp capsules in Smash, it should be about performing combos on the opponent, in reference to how Sonic can perform a combination of tricks in midair or defeat enemies to fill his boost meter. They could even get the announcer to say "Good! Great! Awesome! Outstanding! Amazing!" when you pull off a long combo...although that may get annoying quickly.
"Glass Cannons"
*Shows Melee Jigglypuff*
Well she's the second lightest character in that game and Rest kills at 15%.
Most of Sonic’s moves are actually from Sonic the fighters. It’s still a weird choice, considering Sonic Battle also exists, but I thought I would point it out since it seems you thought Sonic’s fair was taken from Pikachu, which it is not.
Sonic's moves in Sonic battle would fit smash very well
Cândido Jr they really would, wouldn’t they? Project M Sonic is actually fun to watch with the moveset overhaul they gave him in that game.
Sonic’s Fair closely resembles Falco’s Fair to me.
@@lixocompleto547 yes.
He mentions that some of his moves came from sonic the fighters and that it's a weird choice, also being from a source game and being recycled from/similar to smash assets are not mutually exclusive concepts.
It’s almost like sonic as a character has nothing going for him... he was thought of as a rival to mario and that’s it. Mario’s series was thought out with gameplay philosophy in mind, the core mechanic of jumping was fine tuned to be fun. Sonic just runs because moving horizontally is the opposite of vertically. The whole “sega does what nintendon’t” thing was implemented too literally, focused on a rivalry without consideration of what good game design is.
That's not entirely true. Yes, Sonic was made to directly rival Mario, but the whole "Mario jumps up so Sonic has to run forward" can't be true. Sega made Sonic run fast because no one has ever done it before, and it was a new and challenging idea that they could try to make into a game.
Thats not true at all sonic yes was made to rival mario and to be sega's mascot but was made in mind to have good gameplay. Sonic was made to be fast with momentum which no other game was doing. I dont think you even played the classic games or know what your talking about. Sonic 3 is called one of the best 2d platformers for a reason.
@@nobodycares6761 Lmao. Sega yes has made bad games but so has Nintendo. Sega has great games like Nights,Jet set radio,Crazy Taxi,Phantasy Star online,Virtua Fighter and many more. You probably think sega only makes sonic games which all are not bad.
@@Mr.06_ name 3 good sonic games made from 2010 to 2020
@@epekka Sonic Manai, sonic colors, sonic generation,
I've said this about Sonic's elemental shields for ages. Why can't his side B get one of the 3 elemental shields, including the 4th neutral shield? a randomized thing, or something in a set order? down B being his dash spin makes sense, because of how you trigger his dash in the games, but some sort of variety is imperative.
Because the shields all came from item boxes. Sonic does have the insta-shield move, though
His neutral air should be instashield
tcrpgfan Mario can shoot fireballs, but those come from item boxes, there’s really no excuse
And then Steve and Kazuya came out
It is impossible to DI Luigi's Zero to Death as it does not send the opponent into tumble. You can SDI and try your best to mix it up, but know the Luigi player can read and somewhat react to the SDI.
The fact that Sonic doesn't include rings WHATSOEVER in ANY part of his kit, animations included, is a downright CRIME
Sonic is an example of the worst of 3rd party representation in Smash Bros. Sakurai's always been one to go all out for a character when putting them in. Sometimes, the idea just simply falls flat and doesn't translate well into the game he's put them into but that's a forgivable sin. Every character you mentioned prior to Sonic had this problem. When you're talking about Sonic though, especially since he's the ONLY 3rd party listed in this list (and he's the worst one you listed on top of that), it hurts more than just the people who already hate his character, it also hurts people who love him.
If someone ever drops their controller and leaves whenever you pick Sonic, try to understand where they're coming from. They're going to have to hear that grating spin dash sound over and over and over again because that's basically his entire tool kit. If someone just leaves and doesn't watch the match at all when you choose him, same scenario but on a much more controversial scale. People want to be entertained when watching a match between characters in any game, period, and Sonic simply does not do that. He never did. That's why he was always ridiculed since day one.
It's gotten worse because of the online environment being trash, that's true, but it's a scar that will hurt his image in this game for the long run (that's not a pun, I swear). The saddest part about all of this is that these characters' move sets are grandfathered into the mechanics so hope of their move sets changing whatsoever is basically null and void. Sakurai would rather just work on the new DLC fighters and then piss off. I don't blame him in the slightest. Dude's tired and needs a huge vacation from all this bullshit. What this means though is that Sonic will only get worse from here.
Bank on this; Sonic will eventually become the new Smash Bros. Brawl Ganondorf and will never be used by anyone ever again, period. Why? Because they'll simply nerf all of his options to the ground to shut people up and ultimately ruin the only tools at his disposal. Okay so maybe they could fix some joint detection and maybe even reward offense by buffing his better moves and nerfing the more annoying ones but that will never change that his fundamentals are always going to usually rely on spin dashes. If you just completely nerf spin dash then he'll suck no matter what.
To fix Sonic in this game would require a total overhaul of quite a few of his moves and that's something I just don't see taking place any time soon. He's in the game and that, to Sakurai, is more than enough. Who cares if he annoys everyone and causes fights/arguments between people who want to use him and people who hate dealing with him? Your best chance would be to just wait for an entirely new Smash game at this point but he's had 2 entire fucking games to improve since his debut and not one bit of it has changed. I wouldn't hold my breath now.
I'm still going to use to him because he's been my main since Brawl and that's just simply how it is. I realize I'm going to be unpopular for that but that's the way it is.
@Little Baby Blue I love Sonic always have since my first Sonic game and now I feel like it’s a excuse because Sonic is getting Waluigi levels of disrespect (I The disrespectful things Sakurai and Nintendo have done to him) to the character as well as the people who play him and going so far to outright ban the character and ever character in ultimate feels amazing with hype players and exciting reveals however Sonic in Ultimate has nothing no hype players(except Clockwork that guy is godlike with Sonic) everyone hates him, half of his moveset is him turning into a ball (highly overused) and has no representation what so ever like NO SECOND FIGHTER FROM SERIES OR ECHO FIGHTER (like your meaning to tell me that you would rather put in another Fire emblem character and not another Sonic character don’t you think Sonic has suffered enough Nintendo) literally the EXACT SAME STAGE (Windy Hill is just Green Hill with a Mario Galaxy gimmick) finally for such a landmarked figure he as the most terrible garbage moveset ever out of the ENTIRE GAME and WHY FOR STANDING UP TO MARIO 30 YEARS AGO?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF
Why didn’t they give sonic moves from
Sonic battle? That would be awesome like why not make the side B that spin kick move he has (in battle and advanced 2) instead of having side B be super similar to down B
I probably will be very unpopular too, I’m still maining sonic and maybe even Byleth.
@@aetherxsn1591 Considering all that's happened since my comment, I'd like to express my change in approach to this whole situation; Use whoever you want and realize it'll cause issues with certain players regardless. Sonic's got more of those than any other character but I think it truly depends on how much you love Sonic as a character. I for one have been using him because he's my favorite video game character. Would a better move set have been nice? Yes but it's actually not a deal breaker for me. He's in the game.
Byleth's not even remotely in the same boat since it was more of a first experience hatred kind of thing. Byleth's only going to get more popular from here on but as for Sonic, I think he's going to remain in this rocky, controversial boat for the long haul. All I can say is avoid camping as much as possible and try to get a handle on his offensive options. Worried about abusing spindash? Try playing matches without using it whatsoever so you can figure out what his other moves do. He recently got buffed so there's that too.
All-in-all, do whatever you want and take the brunt of peer pressure like a champ. There was a time I'd made a comparison to when ZeRo was boo'd at for winning a Smash 4 tournament as Diddy Kong but...Yeah, that's not gonna happen. All I can say to you my friend is use whoever you like and try to enjoy the experience as much as possible. You'll have more enemies than friends but also try to differentiate actual hatred from salt. People get mad when competitive. It's a natural human emotion. Hatred is just plain bad.
End of story.
From one Sonic main to another; Come on, step it up!
I saw the title, and thought, "How long do I think Sonic's section will be?"
On the topic of Mac I would tend to agree. Specifically giving him a better recovery and perhaps a higher jump would be changes allowing for a bit less risk without taking his identity. That said the identity is niche to say the least and he feels more like a joke character than anything. I enjoy such jokes but from a more competitive standing I would agree the design is an issue.
@Random Person explain
@@JohnWhitneyTheFourth Little Mac is already miserable to play against, if he could recover better he would be an absolute nightmare. If his recovery was good enough for him to become competitively viable he'd be so oppressive and universally hated that he would be #1 on this list.
The core issue with Mac isn't balance, it's fun.
Maybe Mac will get justice someday, just look at Link in 64 he had a terrible recovery there but not anymore.
@@dragodadragon Having a Little Mac with higher jumps and a better recovery sounds like heaven.
I like how Luigi and Sonic, the two characters I main, are in the thumbnail.
Sonic’s moveset is indeed uniquely awful and reference almost nothing in his series outside of his most basic incarnations.