How “Honor” Completely Derailed TWD’s Future
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ธ.ค. 2023
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There are a few different episodes that stand out as “jumping off” points when it comes to TWD. Maybe it’s an episode like “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” where the loss of two beloved characters and the level of violence was too much for some people. Maybe it was “What Comes After” and the departure of Rick Grimes. But over the last year or so whenever this conversation gets brought up, another episode is brought up, and that’s “Honor”
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Outro:
Late Night Driving - Broke In Summer - บันเทิง
FUTURE!!!!!
I was hoping at least one person would appreciate that 😂 I was laughing while editing it
It was so quiet and subtle but as soon as I heard it it awakened me.
@@thethriftytypewriterthat was so funny 😂
Squidward losing his mind will always be funny
Just like season 11 it was hilarious@@thethriftytypewriter
Even the concept of Rick being in a particularly good mood that day because he had chicky nuggies for lunch would have been a better writing decision for sparing Negan than killing off Carl.
The best way to do it would be to give Carl his dark arc like in the comics and Rick is scared of the monster Carl is becoming so he spares negan
@@Gamfluentyeah I could see that
Now I kind of wish they did actually do that. At least it would be funny.
@@Gamfluentthis right here. it was done so well in the comic
Also ricks and michonnes reaction to Carl being bitten and dying was so underwhelming. Rick was angrier when Carl got shot in the eye and was unconscious. Rick went out to a thousand walkers to kick ass by himself.
To me the biggest insult is killing Siddiq off the way they did. The character that could've made a major impact on the series being the person that Carl died for was just reduced to another sacrifice for a mid season finale.
I did think the Dante plotline was handled pretty decently but it also made me think about how Siddiq was wasted as a character.
And to add insult to injury they kill Henry his literal counterpart
@@Gamfluent when they killed henry and five others offscreen (The montage doesn't count)
@@fatboy_jarred6925 wait huh,I can’t tell if you’re asking me a question or confirming my stance 😭
He did make an okay impact he saved quite a few lives and he taught Enid and she saved Aaron's life
To me the whole Dante plot was completely pointless, sure it’s handled decently but what does it matter if it doesn’t contribute anything to the story.
100% agree. Glenn and Abraham dying was just a natural death done a bit too hard that turned a few viewers off. But killing the literal future of the show for some cheap viewer grabbing episodes seriously destroyed this entire franchises future. I still love this franchise but man is it tough to wonder what we couldve gotten
The deaths of Glenn and Abraham were fine, imo as far as the graphics. It's meant to be brutal. The bad part was the cheap cliffhanger and having to wait a full year for it. I still think that they should have had s7 e1 as s6 e17. and s6 e16 as the second to last episode or season 6. That would have been only a weeks wait for the cliffhanger. The mistakes really added up on this one.
I disagree. I feel that Abraham was killed off only to serve as yet another fake out of Glen's impending death which still did not surprise me at all because they had been building up to it all of the previous season. Waste of both characters in my opinion.
@@Goofyguy4ever Yeah it would have.
nah killing glen and Aberham was b.s they quit follow the comics for like 4 seasons and then randomly decide that was the one plot point they were going to keep even after how much they did to make glens character better and then they turn around and start making shit up left and right again for no good reason instead of following an actually good story. the problem is they kept switching directors and 90% of them didn't want to make the walking dead, they wanted to make their own thing which isn't why they should have been hired.
@kingkorva5720 Abraham already had his story. There was no other reason to keep him around so they had to kill him off. In fact imo I'd say his death in the show is better than the comics. Though I may be biased cuz I hate his death in the comics lol
I have never understood the people who stopped watching when Glenn died, but it’s tough to argue against people who quit when Carl died. Glenn’s death was faithful to the source material, superbly executed and served the story. Despite the writers’ best efforts, Carl’s death was none of those things.
@@SnippyyyNo one cares
I never stopped watching! ❤ TWD.
@@taurusbull8276 Woke up with something in your ass today?
I stopped shortly after just because it go so boring. I'm sure thats what many others did and just say it was because of Glenns death. The show runners ripped out hearts out then bored us to death. Also this was when people were having the most complains about the show with bait and switches etc. Currently rewatching the series now though
@Snippyyy You're complaining about something that happened 6 years ago though. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
When I watched the episode for the first time and started hearing Carl preach peace throughout, all I could think is "since when?". He literally had a bloodlust mindset leading up to this episode.
ig being on death’s door changed his mindset??
No he didn't. lol You didn't see the show.
Because negan fed him spaghetti🤣🤣
Chandler leaving was a huge motivating facotr for Andrew leaving later on. He was PISSED when he found that out.
😅 Why are you making up lies?
@@deckzone3000 What lies? That's been confirmed dawg
@@DanielMartActor Stop trolling.
@@deckzone3000 I'm not... and clearly you're misinformed
@@DanielMartActor finally someone knows this, Andy was unhappy about the amount of changes from the comic to the show and the changes where a big part of him leaving the show
People talk about how bad Riggs acting is, but in the first few seasons, Carl is great. Screaming Dad! When he sees Rick for the first time, his seizure in S2 even his moodiness in 3. I think he was a pretty good child actor and I don’t think you can really just loose it, especially when he showed interest in being there. But when his storylines start making less sense and he’s given wildly inconsistent character development, what else is he supposed to do? Extremely brave, smart and competent and then dumb scared and useless. He literally can’t even beat Aaron in a silly fist fight even though he’s man handled grown men and zombies for years? I don’t think he was given a lot to go off of but did okay trying to bridge the gap.
he was good as a child but he didn’t mature as a good actor. sing me a song was painfully cringe to watch
@@Jjangbunbuncringe as hell writing. no one would be able to pull that off without being uncomfortable. Negan is trying to humiliate him, the fact that it’s cringe is kinda the point I guess
@@Jjangbunbun Think that was the goal.
Doesn’t change the fact his acting wasn’t great and the character well I’m going to be real I couldn’t care less that he died when he did.
@@jabronisauce6833Thanks for your critical and insightful opinion.
I was just talking about this. The show perfectly set up Carl as the future protagonist of the show for S9 - S11. That’s why people didn’t feel the need to watch after Carl left, because it felt like the show’s future was gone, and it really kinda was. Morgan’s whole thing was mercy, he should’ve died thus changing Rick’s mind instead of Carl. Then Morgan wouldn’t have to be ruined on Fear, and he could die a good character. When Rick left the show, it was meant for the torch to be past onto Carl. Not Judith who lacks Carl’s development. Not Dayrl who’s not meant to be a leader. CORAL! I still ask myself why this happened, I don’t think Chandler Riggs asked to leave, I don’t know why he’d be asked to leave. It really just feels like poor shock value.
and they really built it up too. Even gave us an entire episode in S6 ("Here's Not Here") to show how Morgan went from his "Clear" to "All Life is Precious" stage. They even had his mentor tell him about sparing a very evil man as part of it. I truly do believe they were building towards Morgan's death somehow inspiring Rick to spare Negan, there is just so much build up. Plus, why did they sudden;y ship Morgan over to Fear? Probably because he was never going to be on the main show past S9..... We will probably never know what truly happened, but Carl's sudden change felt very forced and dishonest. The pieces fit.
@@jordanl1911 Yeah it’s a shame things happened how they did. I loved Morgan but it just feels more right for him to die then instead of the show’s future protagonist.
@@jordanl1911 Killing carl was so wrong to do even if you could say that it was just for shock value, its so wrong to the point I think that season needs to be decannonize and be recreated. That whole thing was just so wrong even if I don't really like carl that much
@iamfriendly6483 of course it's not going to decannonize, but it was a HUGE mistake, the biggest one they made. Carl was not a consistent character and Riggs acting wasn't the greatest, but I think we were all invested in his character. So much of his development felt pointless after they killed him off.
Also ricks and michonnes reaction to Carl being bitten and dying was so underwhelming. Rick was angrier when Carl got shot in the eye and was unconscious. Rick went out to a thousand walkers to kick ass by himself.
Killing Coral was the single biggest dumpster fire of a decision ever made in the whole series, and Giimple’s reasonings fir it were even worse, he comic ready mapped out why Rick decided to spare Negan, killing Coral off wasn’t needed. At least Chandler Riggs got paid for the remaking 3 years on his contract.
who the f is coral?
@@chaserseven2886it’s a running joke
They killed him because he was turning 18 and bout to get big boy money imo.
@@DukeJimbob they continued to pay him for the remaining 3 years on his contract, at adult rates. Gimple admitted he did it mostly for shock value.
@@testpilotian3188ngl… gimple killed the show with that shock value decision… very stupid. 🤦🏾♀️
No matter how much season 9 (or even 10 and 11) redeemed it, there is no denying that Carl's death is what forever prevented this show from having a perfect ending.
Chandler Riggs did absolutely nothing wrong with his portrayal of Carl. He did exactly what was asked of him, I’ve never understood the critiques of his acting. Without cutting him extra slack for being a kid, I always thought he sold the most important moments beautifully.
As a comic fan, I wish he got to finish off his story.
for real, plus his acting was starting to improve. and i believe chandler said he was going to take acting lessons to get better… so idrk what the critiques are
What bothers me even more is now when I see Chandler on the internet, his smile is fake. I seriously hope he is happy.
@@shalolly4310 ya I've been noticing that he looks off he doesn't look happy
Just so non-comics readers know what we missed out on:
Carl was never a pacifist in the comics, not until much later, and even then he was willing to do whatever to keep people safe. After the "eye-opening experience", he became more of a loose cannon, so to speak.
The whole "unite the communities" was Rick's idea. Carl was against it. So against it, in fact, that after the war he was about to kill Negan. He was the one who visited him constantly when imprisoned, never letting the urge to kill him go.
Carl was the centerpiece of the Whisperer arc. Granted, he was too horny for his own good during that period, but Lydia and his' dynamic was pretty beautiful. She taught him not to hide the wound, and Carl was the one who stood up for her against Alpha, going as far as to venture into their territory to get her out. It all goes to shit, of course, when Negan kill Alpha.
In the comics, when they arrive to the Commonwealth and after some stuff happens (a walker invasion, for one), the people start clamoring for Rick to be the new leader. Then Sebastian kills him. Then Carl finds Rick, now turned, and puts him down. The aftermath is really beautiful despite the loss, because it shows you just how human he really is. Having lost my dad at a young age too, I can't help but love all of that.
Sebastian is jailed. Carl is set to visit him very ofted if not every day, promising him that if he were ever to escape, he would find him, make him suffer, then bring him back. It's one of Carl's most badass moments.
He has a daughter after a long timeskip. And he tells her the story of Rick.
That is what we lost. That's what the show took from us.
I dislike Carl in the comics too. I wholeheartedly believe Carl should’ve been on the pikes in issue 144. I genuinely think the whisperers would’ve respected the boundaries and not bothered the groups again had Carl’s dumb ass not chased after Lydia. The whole whisperer conflict and lives lost were because of him.
@@BoogSReviewsdude this is the second time i’ve seen you comment almost this exact thing. we get it, you hate Carl. why are you under a Carl video of fans who liked him just to say “but i hate him!” like lmao go find some anti-Carl videos or something 😭
I didn't notice this until I watched season 8 for the second time, but Carl is still in Rick's vision of the future. The vision that Carl's telling to him in the church. Even as he's watching him die, Rick is literally unable to imagine a version of his future that Carl's not a part of. The realization brought me to tears, it was so touching and heartbreaking. A really nice little detail to add to this absolute trainwreck of a plotline
The visions were Carl's
I don’t say this lightly but to this day, this is by far one of the worst decisions in TV history. Like it’s honestly up there with some of the Game Of Thrones Season 8 writing. I know Chandler’s portrayal of Carl wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but even then absolutely NOBODY wanted this, nor thought it was a good decision. How Gimple thought killing Carl was justification for Rick’s decision to keep Negan alive is beyond me, when all he had to do was give Carl more of a voice for Rick to hear his message for peace. Or better yet, kill off Morgan and have him pull a 180 and vow for peace, making Rick want to keep Negan alive. But killing off the most important character in your universe??? I’m still shocked to this day how they allowed this to happen.
speak for yourself, don’t try to pull others into it. it’s not nobody who thought carls death was a good idea. I thought it saved the show.
Also wtf are talking about “most important character in the universe” ??? Did you even think for a second about what you’re saying? You are very clearly delusional. See a doctor please.
They could've even just gone with the comic justification, with Rick thinking about what Glenn would want. Again, not perfect, but better than this.
He was also poorly written in the shoe. The comic was a perfect blueprint and the ignored it? Even him aging faster they still could have made him a darker character but we got what, rollerblades? His death was absolutely terrible writing as if gimple was purposely destroying shoe before somehow being promoted
@@Banskibri Hot take, but I actually really like the rollerblade scene. Maybe not the timing of it, I think if it was in Season 5 or 6 it would've been better and more fitting, but I kinda liked it still.
You all disliked Carls character when he was alive.
Carl should have been standing with Judith and RJ overlooking the fields in the shows final scene.
I feel like RJ wouldn’t exist if Carl was alive 😂
Thankfully he didn't. lol
@@Rknowles813Someone is a gimp for Gimple
@@mr.awesome6011 Why? Because I don’t think chandler played Carl grimes well? You’re a simp for Chandler
@@Rknowles813 chandler played carl as good as he could with what he was giving, his acting was on the up and killing him ruined the show
The show could've had the same amount of emotional impact if they have done exactly what they did but just kill Morgan off instead of Carl. That would've gotten Rick to have learned the same lesson Carl gave to Rick and the only difference would be negan not feeling as sad. I feel like Morgan has been living a bit too long now especially with how his comic counterpart ended
I should've finished the video first. But honestly I feel like the show should've done a better job building Morgan's and Rick's relationship. It was always so weird how Morgan is what got Rick into being who he is but they almost always kind of had a shit relationship. I feel like they don't even like each other most of the time they are in scenes together.
Haha I feel like in the planning stages it was always supposed to be Morgan. He’s the one who built the cell that Negan would go in, he said all life is precious, he’s the reason why Rick is alive in the first place! the seeds were all planted, it’s just like they forgot to build up Rick and Morgan’s friendship. I really feel like that was going to be the original plan, but they switched it to Carl so that Morgan could go to Fear, and it made all of Morgan’s build up meaningless.
@@thethriftytypewriterThat was the exact reason they killed Carl so Morgan should go into Fear. Worst decision ever.
@@thethriftytypewriterAnd now Morgan has left Fear and, should we ever see him again, it will likely be in The Ones Who Live.
@@brianachim2670 And it ruined BOTH shows in the same time... I loved original Fear, the crossover was amongst the worst decisions made in TWDU
I think there's a multitude of reasons why Carl was killed off:
1) They didn’t want to pay Chandler adult pay.
2) Lennie James wanted to go to FearTWD so the next best thing they could think of was to kill Carl.
3) Scott Gimple burns everything he touches.
1) Chandler didn't deserve that kind of money for his performance.
2) Lennie James didn't ask or volunteer to go, he was asked and even asked Andy if it was a good choice
3) Gimple was show runner during some of the best seasons and wrote some of the best episodes.
@@Rknowles813 **snores**
@@Rknowles813 I agree
1) Before S8 started, Chandler was given a one year contract at $100,000 per episode. So the rumour of his demise being tied to his age, doesn't make sense
2) Lennie was asked to join Fear after S8 was completed.
@@BonnerDoesTH-cam hit you with facts & you have nothing to say 😂🤡
@@Rknowles813chandler deserved an adult wage like Enid got
I always sympathized with Gavin. To me he always seemed like a guy who ended on the wrong strong group. He tried to keep peace as much as he could but he found himself with the saviors …
Gavin was a great character. He knew how to balance maintaining authority and the standards of the saviors while also being fair and sympathetic to the groups he was managing.
It was totally insulting to kill carl off to progress the story/ricks character. In hindsight with Michonne/rick/maggie leaving a season later it makes even LESS sense. Personally i believe Andrew Lincoln left because of how carelessly they treated Chandler a 10 year veteran to the show, i believe Andrew lost his main motivation behind acting as rick when carl was eliminated from the show. Now i KNOW Andrew outwardly stated he was leaving to be with his family, but to me that is a PR answer to now burn the walking dead bridge (not metaphorically) but leaving the show for more free time and instantly agreeing to 3 movies isnt exactly "a break to be with your family" . I think them killing carl caused Rick to jump off the sinking ship, which caused Michonne to do the same. Equally generically writing out rick/Michonne from the show to still be alive, and killing carl is a JOKE. If Chandler truly wanted to leave to pursue college they could have easily written him out as alive and missing, (and it would have made PERFECT sense for rick/Michonne to leave the main group to go find him). Killing him off was for a 1 episode shock factor, but that decision sunk the whole show IMO
Since its a ten something year skip they could just recast him
@@heavyfromtf2208 I don't even think they needed to IMO he was 18 pretending to be 15 ish. iRL he's growing facial hair and is an adult. All they'd have to do is emphasize those changes instead of concealing them and he'd look naturally 19-20
I kind of agree- you work with a guy for 10 years, a kid no less, you watch him grow-you take on a father-ish role in his life even if its mostly make-believe. Then to see that kid unceremoniously booted out of a show, in a shockingly scummy fashion if Rigg's father is to be believed, its going to leave an impact on you. Definitely couldnt be the sole deciding factor for Lincoln-- hes back to do more after all-- but probably did make him want to take a good long break
I despise the theme in modern story telling, where the big bad guy’s grunts are killed without a second thought by the protagonist. But, as soon as you get down to the big bad guy, suddenly it would be morally wrong to kill him too! It doesn’t make any sense and it feels so backwards
How he died and dying at all was a waste imo, but the actual lead up to it, the scenes of him making the most of his time left and his send off are masterfully done and absolutely beautiful. Also, intercutting the episode with Morgans insane rampage is really good indication of where Rick's mind is going
I've always believed that Carl's death/Chandler's shady-ass firing was the straw that broke the camel's back for Andrew Lincoln. There had been rumblings for a few seasons that he was considering leaving because his kids were getting older, spending half his year away from home was getting too draining, etc, but evidently he always decided against it. It can't be a coincidence that he just happened to finally make that decision only weeks or months after the decision about Carl/Chandler was made. (Obviously I don't know the timeline, but Carl was killed off in S8E9 and Rick was gone by S9E5; Rick/Andrew didn't even stick around for the equivalent of another full season.) Andrew has said numerous times over the years that one of the things he loved about TWD's core story was how it was really about father & son, and how he couldn't wait to have Rick hand off the reigns to Carl and see how it ends. And now that motivation, for both actor and character, was just gone. While I don't believe Carl's death was the only - or even the main - factor in Andrew's decision to leave, I am 100% convinced it was the reason for the exact timing of his departure.
I've gone on stupidly long rants before about how I think the show screwed over both Carl and Chandler over the years, so I'll hold my tongue on that, but yeah... they both deserved so much better.
Andrew apparently wanted Rick to die in the S8 finale, but thought it would be too much with Carl dying too so decided to stay a bit longer.
@@ItsAv3rageGamer 👏 Someone else that actually knows what they are talking about.
I feel like it would of been really cool if Carl was the one who wanted blood, wanted negan and all the saviors dead and that shocking rick and making rick realize that he's gotta find a different way
this makes way more sense and would be perfect. just one season before Carl died he was perfectly willing to kill the saviors that broke into his house instantly and literally went on an entire journey to kill negan at the sanctuary. he was known to be very cold and ready to kill anyone who threatens him, so it makes zero sense for him to suddenly help siddiq and go on this whole rant about how peace is the answer. they could have played it out the way you suggested and even added a flashback to hershel, who always encouraged rick to show carl that you dont always have to kill everyone
@@cobaltshark934well Carl didn’t want to kill the saviors. He just want Negan and only Negan put yourself in his shoes while he was on his knees and see the people he care about and fight the dead and the living that is threaten to them together and was brutal murder right in front him and Negan got him and his dad Rick thinking he was gonna lose his arm by his own father and there nothing you can do about that or Negan would of kill the others if Rick chose not to do it at all , it was traumatize for him being a Child and Negan don’t care at all he was peace of shit that should of got killed by Rick and the group in the season 8 or 9 should’ve be Carl for traumatize him, or Maggie for killing her baby daddy right in front of her while she pregnant with the baby aka Glenn or Rosita for killing Abraham in front her I do believe they was talking like they where in relationship or something so yea should’ve been one of those 3 should’ve take him out I’m more on the side with Carl or Maggie it would be epic and they did make Negan believe that Maggie has die shortly after Glenn and Abraham death so he wouldn’t know his death was coming if it was Maggie out of nowhere
That would be repetitive. It already happened at the prison
This is one of the moments that I really cannot defend as it was such a terrible decision to kill Carl off.
Carl made it to the end in the comics and has such a perfect ending that no one (not even Judith) can recreate to much emotional impact.
Carl needed to make it to the end with his daughter, perhaps named Lori.
Carls death was written pretty well though given the terrible circumstances, the themes were addressed on how rick failed and its shown how rick recovered from carl death and how it changed him for the better, the acting was great also, id prefer if carl didnt die but thats what happens. I could argue killing judith in the comic was a terrible idea for the same thing mentioned, judith death only reason why she died was for shock value and its not like ricks character changed much because of it.
The Walking Dead had several moments before Carl’s death where they “jumped the shark”, but Carl’s death was definitely the final nail in the show’s coffin.
Carl's death is undoubtedly the greatest mistake the series made. I can take Glenn and Abraham dying, I can even take Rick and Michonne leaving the show. But Carl's death was the moment I really started to question what I was watching. Although I eventually found my way back to the series and I greatly enjoyed the remainder of TWD, I hate this episode and season 8 as a whole. When I rewatched TWD, I skipped Honor. I just can't do it. And I like Siddiq as a character but I think his death later on is just adding insult to injury already with Carl's death.
Carl’s death is what made Rick want to leave, and that caused Michonne to leave to.
100% agree looking back it is obviously the greatest mistake they made, only death in the show that makes me cry on a re watch, the show didn't feel the same after carl's death
@@fiend2society it was a part of why Andy left the show he wanted to spend time with his family but the changes to the show from comics didnt help
This is a prime example of how buisness can ruin art. Despicable actions by some shady suits.
The death of Carl was devastating for me. I cry every time I see it. we watched him grow up in this show, it was like a member of my family dying. I didn't stop watching because I love the rest of the characters, and after Rick left my interest was at rock bottom. The two characters that were the whole reason for the show were gone, I didn't particularly enjoy much of the series after that. I watched hoping for some news of or the return of Rick. I hope to god TOWL is worth the wait.
in my opinion as a writer, carl was ALWAYS the main character for me. Sure it felt like they were constantly setting up Daryl to take the mantle, which he did, I feel like killing off Carl the way that they did was a cheap death for the sake of having one. You could've easily built Carl's want for peace to be due to seeing Judith grow up in a world way worse than even he had to and she wasn't even old enough to fend for herself yet. Not to mention killing off siddiq despite this "grand sacrifice" only made it feel that much cheaper as Carl essentially died for nothing. Poor execution all around and it's honestly part of the reason I eventually gave up on TWD and never finished it.
Ugh I stopped at season 7 but carls death still makes me so sad. I actually liked him and wished he went down how “serial killer” arc which was teased in season 4. Dude was cold as ice. Rick seeing what his son had become + Morgan could have easily have made him realized that war wasn’t the solution. Seeing how this world had turned the guy who helped him out at his lowest when there was no benefit, and how his son was just a killing machine would have forced him for reevaluate. But no they had to kill off Carl for money/shock value/shitty writing.
When I was younger watching the show when it aired, I disliked Carl’s character and Chandler’s portrayal of him. Now, as an adult looking back, I think he was fantastic. He was a real kid in the apocalypse, with the good and the bad, Carl felt real and became one of my favorite characters. Chandler Riggs did an incredible job playing the character while growing up and I feel like we all have been robbed of how awesome adult Carl could have been in the show.
I've been re-watching the series recently and one thing that stood out to me about Season 8, knowing how things play out, is that everything about Season 8 just feels like it's in service of the eventual season finale showdown with Rick and Negan. In other seasons there is a journey that leads somewhere (back halves of Seasons 4 and 5 on their way to Terminus and Alexandria respectively come to mind) but there is still story and character development along the way. Everything in season 8 just feels like it's there to either fill time or service the one final scene where Rick spares Negan.
It hurts even more knowing this only happened because AMC didn't want to pay Chandler Riggs adult wages. You know the plan was always to have Carl take over because imagine how much better season 9 would've been if after the time skip it was Carl who was in charge and was older rather than Judith. For what it's worth, the writers gave him one of the saddest deaths of the show for me, so they have that I guess 😅
Chandler was getting paid $100 K per episode in S8, so him turning 18 really have an impact
I’d love to see a video on 4x12, titled “still”. I think it’s a very underrated episode and one of my favourites. Some great character moments.
The Daryl and Beth episodes are so underrated and over-hated. I love those episodes. It’s pretty much a brother-sister type relationship between the two and it’s great. Not the most entertaining I admit but the story there is just so beautiful.
@MrLeroy42 those were some of my favorite episodes. Beth should have lived longer than she did.
@@Logan-lz5gu I completely agree. Her death was so dumb imo.
@@MrLeroy42 100% agree with you. Rewatching it you can just tell the only reason it was done was for shock value. Beth had no reason to die and she was already becoming a strong survivor after having come far from the weak girl she once saw herself as. Talk about missed potential.
@@daryldixonsmotorcycle Absolutely! It was the mid-season finale too so in their minds someone had to die. Which I hate how shows have become like that. Nowadays they only kill off characters on mid-season finales and premieres along with the season finale. I wish they would just tell a story and kill off characters when necessary.
The showrunners were just looking for a reason not to kill Negan.
Every bad decision that ruined TWD comes back to Negan.
Glenn, Abraham, Sasha, Carl all were because of Negan
The worst part of Carl dying was that we never got a live action recreation of the eye socket lick scene
My immeidate reaction after his death
This is when I stopped watching the show, Carl was who I saw myself in as the show went on. I’m the same age as the actor who played Carl and like I said, I just saw myself in Carl so much.
This is actually one of my favorite episodes of the walking dead because of how emotionally attached I was to Carl and the family Rick’s trying to protect. I also thought it was cute he spent the day chronicling memories of him and Judith being together. Some of the most violent scenes mixed with the most heart warming. That’s a good episode
For me, it’s not so much that they killed off Carl, but more the fact that there was no future worth into it. He got bit to save saddiq, and then, saddiq got betrayed by someone else, who was a supposed alexandrian, and so, the death made no sense.
If he died and saddiq actually made it long, saved people etc, i could have argued that it was worth it, but when it was not
They completely fumbled his character arc after the prison compared to the comic. Like, he really seemed to be on a similar course to the comic. Not quite to the point as the comic, as him killing Ben was much more impactful than killing that random kid in the end of Season 3. And like you said, they completely fumbled his character arc in Season 8, and that his sudden belief in peace is so out of character. Hell, if he lived to Season 9, he probably would've damn near killed two teenagers with a shovel like in the comic.
And I definitely think it was due to money. It's very on-point for AMC.
I'd always thought of TWD of (mainly) Rick and (secondly) Carl's stories. After their respective departures from the show, I didn't feel the need to continue watching since their stories were complete.
The part where Heat Waves started playing and the white flag showed up had me dying😂
It was for Andrew too. He said after his last episode that he felt after Carl died, Rick's story was pretty much done too. He also said gimple called him before the episode aired because he always told Andrew who died and Andrew listed off 5 other characters and gimple said nope. Carl. And the phone was just silent. He even asked him if he was still there. He said yes. He just couldn't believe it.
It had to have been their worst decision ever to get a few cheap ratings boost. I know Judith takes on parts of Carl's role from the comics but we've watched this character for years and connected with him and its hard to get that connection to what is basically a 'new' character now that she's grown up a bit and we are 8 seasons deep in a show that has by now lost its thunder. I think now considering we have spin offs and movies coming AMC will be kicking themselves a little if they think about it as Carl could have had some really good storylines especially as someone who was a child in episode 1 and grew up through it all
Carl was there from the beginning as a young kid and that’s what made it such an important thing that he makes it to the end.
Judith was born into the apocalypse and while she should’ve survived to, Carl’s survival and arc is so key to the comics.
The way they regurgitated his arc to Henry wasnt anywhere as good.
I cried on this episode😢
Same who didn’t
Dishonor! Dishonor on all of AMC! Dishonor on Gimple! And dishonor on their cash cow!
The biggest issue I think with TV show walking dead is that Rick Grimes is not actually the main protagonist of the story, its was always Carl's story and im pretty sure Robert Kirkman said as much, thats why everything fell so flat when they started trying to fill Carl's story with other characters, it NEEDED to be Carl, it NEEDED to be the kid who had been through hell from the beginning, who still had a memory of the world before but was molded by the new one. Henry had a much easier go of the apocalypse and Judith was born in it and would have been far more compelling if they stopped trying to make her Carl 2.0 and let her be that apocalypse kid (she is still a really cool character though imo). But it was just kinda meh when they used Henry to speedrun Carl's romance plot then killed him when it was done to replace him with Judith for the new world plot.
Changed the entire tragectory of the show. Had Carl never died, I'm of the belief that Andrew Lincoln might not have left the show "completely" and we could've gotten the entire comic story from start to finish. Old man Carl sitting on the porch reading The Walking Dead to his daughter, with the CW Grimes statue and all *chefs kiss*
They could have still made Daryl the new "lead" of the show while Rick is still there chilling at Alexandria if they hit Rick with his comic broken leg. Giving Lincoln an out to spend time with his family, while still being on the show. As Andrew said soon after he left, that he wish he never left.
I literally thought they were prepping us for this by giving us many Rickless bottle episodes during seasons 7-8. But yeah Carls death fucked that.
Beautifully said. When it comes to Carl, showrunners should have stuck to the comics and TV fans.
I think the writers like to go with the emotional gut punch without thinking through the ramifications.
I dont remember where I heard this but, years ago there was something that came out that said that Carl's death was originally supposed to go to Morgan. Lennie James was given a choice between getting killed off TWD or crossing over into Fear. Obviously he chose Fear so I think Carl was the backup kill that made the most sense to the showrunners.
If Morgan's story was altered in season 8 to lean more towards his all life is precious philosophy, I could see it working but that is impossible to say
@NoahVends I just read that back in 2020 Lennie says either go to Fear or do a scene with Negan and die. I bet that’s what they ugly happened but, we’ll never know for sure. But it sounds like it
and if that’s the case, that’s so dumb!! the option to kill off a MAJOR character or send the minor character to a different TV show? they could’ve just killed off no one and just let alexandria go up in flames!! i rlly don’t get why the showrunners do this to their shows
They could've made it more reasonable like Rick and Carl has a father son talk near the end, and Carl wishes he spares Negan, and in the end fight under the tree, Carl runs to Rick or maybe Rick sees Carl from the distance after he sliced his neck, and realized he wants to save Negan now for Carl so he won't be perceived as too far gone again by his son.. Maybe have flashbacks quick flashbacks to the times Rick was in his murderous rampage.. And he slowly drops the glass shard, and fell on his knees, and tell Sidiq to patch him up
In my opinion, Morgon could have most definitely impacted Rick to keep Negan alive. He saved Rick when his son was alive. Morgan built the cell in Alexandria. My factors could have impacted Rick on my levels. Especially since Morgan lost his son and mind.
Carl for me was the Clementine of the tv show, i was always happy to see him in it and when he died i nearly stopped watching like when i thought clementine was gonna die i was so sad but she got to live and so should of carl. Anyways great video Thrifty hope to see you do a video on the telltale games soon
IMO, the fake Glenn death only to kill him for real episodes later was the first straw, killing Carl was the second, and the third was Rick essentially disappearing from the show. I’m still trying to finish season 11 now but I can’t get past the fact that Rick is supposed to be there, as is Carl, and Michonne left her Judith and RJ to basically chase a ghost. The Commonwealth arc and even the Reapers arc were in desperate need of these 3 main characters.
Edit: Oh and sending Morgan (my fav) to try and save ftwd (trash) was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.
Once again you completely nailed it! Nice job covering both sides and I completely agree with you. It was a bad move. The last few seasons would’ve been better with Carl around. I like you wasn’t a huge Carl fan and his death annoyed me because it ruined the show.
One thing I’ll say is I saw a Reddit comment by Chandler Riggs around the time Andrew Lincoln left saying that, Lincoln was so upset when he found out they were killing off Carl that he’d probably be leaving soon. I think the comment was deleted and I’m pretty sure I saw it on some TH-cam video but I’ll look for it. Well done, as usual! You rock, Thrifty!
I quit the show when carl was killed as well . Poor Chandler. He was promised 3 years so his family bought a house near the set. Gimbal changed his mind and devastated the kid by killing him off.
the editing is getting better and way funnier and I am here for it
Killing off Carl was the DUMBEST thing the show ever did. Chandler Riggs had a decent performance, and Carl was never my all-time favorite, but I still enjoyed his character and was invested in him. As you said he was the future of the show. Everything Rick, the protagonist did, was so his son could still have a good life; that was the story of the show. And when they took that away I stopped caring. The show as sad as it was felt like good things could happen if this young man and his sister survived it all and they should have and I felt no hope after that. We should have gotten Carl's dark arc, eventual romance story with either Enid or more so Lydia, and after the time skip Carl should have grown into the new leader and been crucial to giving the survivors a permanent home. I also hate how the ends only to set up more spin-offs, like there isn't even a real end. With Carl alive he could have gotten TWD's true ending and felt like the story was over while setting up for more still. I will continue to prefer the story of Carl in the comics and treat that as the true ending.
At the time I was shocked that they would kill off Carl but honestly, I didn’t really think of him as the future of the show anyway. The fact that they didn’t kill Judith off like they did in the comics, told me long before season 8 that Judith was the real future of the show. She was the only character that was born in the apocalypse and had to learn to adapt and survive way earlier than Carl did. But I do think it would’ve been nice to see Carl train his little sister and be her mentor.
Did it bother you when Rick said she was Shane's child and not his? I think that's my biggest problem with Judith being the "future" of Rick's story instead of Carl. Children rarely remember things that happened to them when they were 3 and under, so Rick had nothing to do with who Judith became. The only bits of Rick and Carl she got came from Michonne's stories about the past. Judith is Shane and Lori's child who heard biased stories about Rick and Carl while she was growing up. She's an original character taking the mantle of people who are strangers to her. The series itself treated her like a minor character, someone doing her own thing in the background because she's a child who can't take part in the conflicts the adults are having. Is her existence important because Rick and Carl wanted her to live? Yes, of course. But even Michonne left her behind because the possibility of finding Rick mattered more to her than the lives of Shane's daughter and the only son Rick had left alive, Michonne's own son who could have replaced the son she lost. Michonne's choice of action makes the supposed importance of Judith's existence seem pointless. If Michonne, the only character left alive who still loved Rick and Carl, didn't care about Judith or the son she created with Rick, why should the audience care about any of them? It's just a mess of bad writing and character assassination, in my opinion.
I agree completely. I have always felt like Carl’s death was a huge misstep that was terrible for the show, and most likely colored Andy’s decision to leave. In fact I’d go as far as saying it could have derailed Kirkman’s plans for the comic.
Huge huge fan of your TWD videos Thrifty! I would love to see a video where you go over your favorite B plots in different episodes. A lot of the time the B plots are there for filler but sometimes the B plots is better than the actual A plot and I’d love to hear your opinion on it
Happy new year thrifty thank you for all the videos on walking dead huge fan 🙏🏻💪🏻
The story of Carls death I heard was because he wanted to attend college and the producers didn't want to work with his schedule.
All these years later, I'm still scratching my head over this.
This episode was amazing. Rick saying goodbye and hearing the gunshot was a moment that stuck with me for a long time
Honestly I did enjoy it going from the emotional Carl scenes to Morgan being a resident evil tyrant for the entire episode
This was the last episode i watched. Kept up with the series through memes and youtube. I just felt like it would not be the same after.
You should really analyze Season 5 Episode 8, “Start to Finish” because in my opinion it’s the most overlooked episode of the series. Apart from it having one of the best soundtrack moments in the series, it has some amazingly good scenes and one of the best death scenes in the series if you ask me.
This video NAILED IT. This episode is what made my wife not want to watch this anymore. When we both heard that Rick was also going to be "killed off", we both said, whats the point and quit it cold turkey. Mind you, my wife and i watched it from episode 1. We watched the Talking Dead recap show right after
It was the only thing my wife and I did TOGETHER. I have never turned the show back up and i LIVED for this show.
very great analysis loved to hear it and it definetly opened up my eyes to carl and chandler
Keep up the good work brother, always excited to see a new video from you
😁❤️
I'm rewatching the show and the whole way through whenever Carl would have any type of personal moment I kept thinking the same thing 'I can't believe they killed of Carl'
I just finished this episode and I felt the same way I did the 1st time around, I cried like a baby at any Carl scene and got annoyed at the cuts to morgan's story (of which I couldn't care less about considering Carl was literally dying) It felt like they were 'pausing' my emotional train every 30 seconds
I still can't believe Gimple killed him off, how could he be so oblivious as to what show he was making? How on earth do you make that decision and think people will be ok with it?
Anyway, it is what it is
If Carl wasn’t the one to die in season 8 then it would be Morgan instead, inspiring Rick with the idea of Mercy and achieving peace with Negan and keeping Carl alive.
The season one of The Walking Dead Shane's necklace has the date of when the show was going to end 22
My final episode was when Rick left, losing both Carl and Rick killed TWD for me. I stopped watching episode by episode and instead binged it when each season had finished just to keep up.
I beefed my eyes out when Carl died because it was the reason Rick did everything he did up to that point, a safe future for his son...
You definitely feel the pain when Rick relentlessly hunts Negan down.
Carl is the reason Negan lives in the Comic aswell and they become friends in a way.
I still believe that killing Morgan off instead of Carl should have been what ended up happening. The reason why I say this is because if you look at “Clear”, “Welcome to the Tombs”, “Sing Me A Song” and the episode where Rick and Morgan kill the Saviors who surrendered in season 8, these are very much episodes where either Carl does something that is a reflection of Rick’s actions, Rick realizes that what he is doing is turning him into something that he doesn’t want Carl to emulate and ultimately become or both. Rick could have seen what the war with the Saviors was doing to Morgan mentally and it should have gotten him killed. Rick would then still have a reason to keep Negan alive so that he could lead by example not only as the leader of the communities but as a way to show Carl that Mercy should always prevail over Wrath. See what I did there.
Great analysis honestly. I was always sad they killed off Carl and felt it was to early but I also see it was the one true change Rick needed. Would love an episode on “Made to Suffer” S3 Ep 8
Carl's death was a real hard hit for me, I've stuck through with TWDU but I can't deny that Carl dying really, really damaged the show and my respect for Gimple. Killing Carl off simply for shock value also took a lot of potential with it, it took away a lot of things. It's also a mixed moment for me, I do think the acting is all great, especially Andrew Lincoln's acting, he was as phenomenal as always, even down to the mannerisms like when he physically reacted perfectly on time with hearing Carl shooting himself. It really did hit hard and it was well performed, but I despise the decision to make it all happen in the first place. Killing Siddiq also really added insult to injury and I hated that too. I think Morgan should've taken Carl's death and Negan is placed into the cell that Morgan built. I still like the CRM stuff with Rick, I think no matter what, I would've wanted that to happen, I like the expanding of the universe with this almost Resident Evil / Umbrella kind of feel. I think Rick should've still left in 9x05 and that Carl should have teamed up with Daryl throughout until the end in which maybe Carl and Daryl go to France in search of Rick. Michonne could've still gone off to The Ones Who Live and of course Dead City with Maggie and Negan I'm sure could still happen. Yes, FTWD would've been pretty different but it went to shit after season 3 anyway and only ended up hurting Morgan's character.
You know you keep making these videos and I’m so happy for you because I love you videos that you make all the time keep doing yardwork and pays off in the end
Have you considered on doing a video on S2 Ep11, 'Judge, Jury & Executioner'? Truly one of the best episodes from the twd hands down.
To add to your point about carls death aiding certain storylines on the show … Rick choosing to spare negan for Carls sake also lead to the rift between him and Maggie (as well as Daryl) which is an important storyline going forward.
As far as why he was killed off I do believe it was over pay. It’s possible that his salary would’ve been more than what they were paying the 5 new cast members combined, considering Carl was one of the leads & the longer an actor is on a show, generally, the more they earn each season. Chandler was likely making six figure per episode. But the sag minimum per episode is around $4k-$6k.
Carl being killed-off wasn't the reason I stopped watching the show, Andrew Lincoln leaving was.
When I heard Andy was leaving I didn't bother watching Season 9.
That said I ended up finishing the show recently, and even though I didn't know if I would find a reason to finish the show I did it.
Andrew was the lead and the reason TWD was worth watching, but they ended up doing the most with what they had.
And now I'm glad I finished the show so I was able to watch some of their best spin-off shows.
The Ones Who Live didn't stick the landing, but most of it was pretty good. Dead City was solid overall, and Daryl Dixon was really good from beginning to end.
The latter is the show I'm most excited about. Season 2 has a lot of potential seeing how things ended.
Anyways, cheers from France! 🍻
The last episode of this show I tuned in for. They may as well have just flashed a message on screen that read: “You’ve been wasting your time for 8 years.”
While i didnt agree with ANYTHING that was happening at the time (and still dont)..Carls death episode in the mid season premiere was really well written and masterfully acted.
For me I never felt like jumping off from the show. Its not even a sunk cost fallacy sort of thing either. I just never stopped enjoying the show even at it's lowest points. I love these characters and I just enjoy watching this universe and the people in it. It just puts me in a good mood any time I'm watching it
Watching this makes me cry because I'll never stop being devastated by what Gimple ruined with this death. Totally derailed the show. Last 2 seasons weren't bad but not what it was supposed to be.
Good point with Morgan. Since season 6 I believed Morgan would be the person to influence Rick to spare Negan with him building the jail and wanting peace but unfortunately his relationship with Rick wasn't given much focus after season 6. If they were going to pick someone else to convince Rick to spare Negan, whether or not they got killed off or were going to get killed off, then it either would have been Glenn or Michonne. Carl was usually more about taking action first and negotiating later.
There is zero argument here, killing off Carl was the most BULLS**T decision the writers hsd ever made! Even all of the people who hated his character agree with this, especially when you consider how Chandler Riggs got completely screwed over with how he planned to continue working on the show before they gave him the phone call that they were gonna kill him.
I GET that they wanted to use him to motivate Rick to not kill Negan as his dying wish, but even the way they executed how he dies is frustrating. Like falling down and getting bitten during his struggle, it's the kind of death you would expect from a side character or even a supporting character, not the son of the MAIN character!!
Although, I don't agree with the people who say "Carl died for nothing when they killed off Siddiq," because Siddiq lived with them for 6 years and managed to do a lot of good for the communities.
When you manage to derail a plot worse than my D&D group derails my campaigns, you've got a problem.
Seriously though, this decision was always so baffling to me. Why set up an entire storyline about the "Future!" if you plan to kill off the very character that it was supposed to be about? I feel like it would have been better to make Carl show his bloodlust again this season. Maybe a hotheaded decision of his leads to another character being killed. It doesn't even matter who; it just has to be enough to snap some sense into him. He could then have scenes with Rick where he expresses remorse and a wish to end the fighting so that more of his friends don't die. Rick says that it can end when Negan is dead but Carl refutes him, saying that their hope for the future needs to be founded in peace, not violence (sharing the story about the prison). Rick ignores it for now but remembers his words in the final showdown. He spares Negan and gives his speech about rebuilding a real society, etc.
I know that's far from perfect, but I wrote it in my head in like 5 minutes.
No wonder people stopped, I'm just watching a recap and I have tears in my eyes. He was such a good character and it was so unfair how...whatever happened, did.
I agree with everything you said in the video (For the most part), but I still love Honor for what it is. I do hate how Siddiq went after Carl passed (Very similar to how Noah went after Beth passed), So it was a waste, really. But Carl is still amazing and really stepped up for the episode. Carl definitely had a future on this show and could've carried iut way beyond greatness, could've even had a role in The Ones Who Live. But we'll never know
I thought the same thing about Andrew getting a bad taste in his mouth about how things were going with the show and how they did Chandler.
If Rick was the main face of the show, Carl was THE POINT of the show. From the beginning it was about fighting for his future, not because he was the only young character, but because it’s what he represented. Even if the show’s writing continued to be lackluster, keeping Carl right up until the end would at least allowed it to keep its core identity.
This literally was the death of shock value in this show.
I said it once, and I'll say it again, Rick should've died in place of Carl. Not only would it have been a great passing a torch to the new generation moment, but also wouldve made for a fantastic story where Carl has to step up and become the leader his father and mother always wanted him to be. Maybe continuing his bloodlust mindset, while Rick, while not a complete pacifist, isnt as bloodthirsty as everyone else is, and Carl has to learn that peace is the better option.
Like, imagine that scene in the S8 finale, where Rick slices Negans throat but spares him, but instead of Rick, its Carl, and after he slices Negans throat, he hears Ricks speech from Too Far Gone play over and over again in his head, and tears in his eyes, realizing that killing Negan isnt the way, chooses to spare Negan, and S9 and onwards focuses on Carl moving forward.
I didn’t watch the show until after Carl died and I binged it so I didn’t have the time to grow with him and really get attached to him,but I honestly didn’t hate that they killed him off. I thought that it was really sad and losing Carl meant that Rick had lost everything he had from life before the outbreak. But I understand why people hated what they did because to be fair Carl was great
One of the biggest issues with Carl's death was the fact that he was a child when the new world kicked off and grew up with the skills necessary to keep himself and others alive. He had to learn how to grow up differently than his parents and other generations. Through learning, being taught and experiences he knew all the ways in which to survive and how to fight not one but numerous walkers at once. To me the show was lazy with his character and his final moments because of these reasons. We should have had a Carl that grew up understanding how and when to fight, when to hide or run, when to turn away or confront, which we kinda had, but for the writers to just be like "no one is ever safe" makes me think they just didn't want to write Carl in anymore, because of his skill set he should have been one of the strongest survivors.
they fumbled this bag so hard and its very upsetting, im such a huge fan of this universe, still has a special place in my heart but dang