Fighting for Truth: Polish Pilots' Real First Combat vs. Movie Fiction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- Polish pilots of the No. 303 'Kościuszko' Squadron were a bunch of ill-disciplined blood-thirsty thugs....wrong! Let's Stop Repeating This 303 'Kościuszko' Squadron Myth!
A lot of us have completely the wrong understanding of just how No.303 Squadron entered the Battle of Britain, and this is the subject I explore in the video. There is more to that famous scene from the Battle of Britain Movie (1969) than you think.
Listen to the full combat report here: • 303 Squadron' Gets Its...
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When I worked at the bakery restaurant in West malling, Kent in 1987 (a, few weeks before enlisting in the RAF for the first time) my bosses father Frank pataky senior came down the stairs and offered me his number 1 uniform to try on. It was the uniform of a Polish WW2 spitfire pilot. Himself. The uniform didn't fit me but how proud I was for him to do that for me. RIP Frank.
Many years ago I actually flew with one of these Polish pilots in a glider .
Having seen what he did with that thing I have no doubt about their abilities
That's true they were unbelievebly skilled pilots. They weren't flying recklessly and had better tactics. There are two famous and the most flying schools in Poland, one in Toruń and the other one in Modlin. The other schools for pilots are very demanding as well, so no wonder that those pilots were excellent. Unfortunately in 1939 Poland had slower and worst fighter than Luftwaffe so they couldn't stand a chance with them. RAF didn't trust them because they lost their fight in september 1939.
@@darkmatter7182 the best pilots academy is in Deblin
The Dęblin school for pilots was notorious for its regime. These lads had quicker eyes, reflexes and were tought to properly dog fight. With inferior equipment by the beginning of the war, they had supreme skills to counter the hardware. When given proper planes, they became invincible.
My dad was a dive bomber pilot in the Pacific in WWII and he explained how easy it is to misidentify aircraft in battle. In the movies you get a good, clear view, but in a fight you get brief glimpses often at weird angles and all the while you're trying to control your own aircraft. Given that, I can easily see misidentification.
My father was a logistics officer in the 9'th AF. He said new p-51 pilots were instructed to "stay the hell out of gun range" of the bombers. They knew it was going to be very difficult for terrified gunners to distinguish a P-51 and a BF-109 flying at 300 mph so they would shoot anyone.
This scene from Battle of Britain is an epic scene of cinema history. But like always in such historical movies, they have to simplify the reality it for the story. So BoB is a great movie, but a movie! To get the real picture you need to read the history books, or even dive deep into the primary sources. So thank you your research. Greetings from Poland.
Totally agree. The movie gets you interested, then you need to read some good books.
Thanks for this - my grandfather was an aircrew cadet in the Polish air force when WWII broke out. He was later on 301 Polish Squadron.
What do you fight for?
Germany, "For das Vaterland!
Britain, "For King and Country!
Japan, "For the Emperor!"
Poland, "Revenge"
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ho ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ho ha ha ha he he he he he he ha ha 😐🙄
Cringe 🥴
You are wrong.
Poland: "For your freedom and ours"
That was the motto of Polish soldiers, when they had to fight far away from their home country (although I don't deny that if one had seen or heard of civilians being slaughtered by German pilots on Poland's roads, in villages and towns, and cities being bombed with no military goal, just for pure terror, it was easy to forget the "rules of chivalry" during air combat).
Regardless of the details,the poles of 303 squadron did good, and after attending a number of Battle of Britain Mess Dinners in the sergeants and warrant officers mess,in the last few years, at raf Northolt, you will be pleased to know the Bar area has been updated, and now called the 303 Bar,in recognition of these brave guys, it has been done so careingly and humblingly. thank you guys.
I am 70 and live in Lincolnshire, I met a few Polish pilots in the course of my Job, Some stayed behind after the war because there was nothing to go home for. The Polish Pilots hated the Germans', The Polish Pilots would go head to head in games of chicken with German pilots, never backing down. I met a Polish guy who told me he was involved in a Dog fight over South of England, he ran out of Ammunition, In his words, I landed went for a shit while they refuelled and re armed, Then back up again. Without Polish Pilots England would ahve struggled. What about the American volunteer pilots.
Tak to prawda. Oni lubi tłuc Niemców nowoczesnymi samolotami.
I think they had the Buchons (painted in RAF colors) behind them because they only had 3 flying Hurricane for the movie. They just needed to pad the size of the flight.
I actually hadn’t noticed until now, damn!
Yup that’s what happened. I mean we got dozens of warbirds on screen at once so I forgive the movie that.
It is now well known that, in the intensity of aerial battle, with fast maneuvering G loaded pilots, errors were made in identifying specific types and shoot down claims. Pilots of all nationalities (including the Germans) made claims based on their honest perception of the engagement and outcome which historical research in the records now available show to be in error. This in no way detracts from the raw courage displayed by those young men.
Also why many Luftwaffe pilots claiming they were jumped by Spitfires when it was actually Hurricanes...
Most poles had 200 flying hours. Most Brits had 20 flying hours. Experience is everything in air fighting
Although one experienced Polish airmen we tried to turn into a pilot was a navigator.
They were also very well motivated. The Poles HATED their enemy in a way most RAF pilots didn't. To the British and Commonwealth pilots, the Germans were the enemy because both sides politicians had told them this was the case. Not so for the Poles.
Nobody went into combat with 20 hours total experience. There were some that may have had sub 20 hours on type when pilot losses were mounting towards the end of the battle but they would still have had 100+ hours total flying.
@@mikemilan4234 Few old boys i knew and have one of their logbooks, basic training was like 130 hours, then would be streamed off to fighters or bombers. Be not surprised if active squadron pilot would have say 200 hours before seeing action.
Pilot might have say only five on type at squadron. 5 would not surprise me as much civil training is hang over from RAF practise. Instructor once needed 5 hours on type to teach on aircraft.
Keep in mind how long Polish air force lasted when attacked by Germany. Not long.
"A question of honor" a great book that debunked many myths in the Western world about the 303 Squadron and Polish pilots fighting in the West during World War II. I am extremely grateful to Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud for this work.
Does it matter which squadron had the highest number of Battle of Britain kills because there is no doubt that we were on our knees trying to defend the air and then the Poles were thrown into the fray and held the line and then gave enough time for other squadrons to recover and then turn the corner of the battle to our advantage. This is why I hated the Brexit campaign when those on the far right started attacking the Polish community calling them criminals and scroungers. I even explained online to one of them about the Polish pilots in the Battle of Britain and his reply shocked me and I think whoever reads this, he replied ' The RAF had no dirty Jew Poles in the battle of Britain' If that is the level of hard Brexit then no wonder we are now at an all time low in morality. And looking to the future with the cutbacks in our military and god forbid Putin prevails it will be the French, Germans and Poles that will bear the brunt of any hostility. I don't suppose for one minute the guy I exchanged views with will be rushing forward to defend our country like many other who wrap themselves in the Union Jack or St Georges flag. We have a lot to thank the Poles for when they fought along side of us in the Army, Navy and Airforce in WW2 and many thousands made the ultimate sacrifice.
Dzięki. Oni myślą, że wszyscy Polacy to żebracy. Może kiedyś przyjedzie upić się do Polski i zobaczy, że świat nie jest czarno-biały.
Very good. I like the way that you have sifted through the evidence and looked for the facts so as to set the record straight. That, IMHO, is what a good historian does.
Bloody good way to demonstrate the Polish pilots bravery and contribution though.
Interesting episode. It seems Paszkiewicz aided the British pilot by taking on one of two Me110’s that were a threat to FO Wick. I think with the evidence you uncovered the most reasonable judgement would be to give each of the pilots 1/2 a kill. The speed, brevity and confusion of an actual WW2 dogfight would lead to tons of confusion and misreporting.
All effective fighter pilots emphasized opening fire as late as possible. Starting from Red Baron, if not earlier than that.
I honestly suspect that Pasza got the kill, while Wicks joined in. He did show initiative and bravery, so he should be honored for it.
It still looks like Pasza got the kill.
I grew up thinking "Ripit plis" was polish for Tally-Ho 😃
The issue here is not the level of training of the Polish pilots but the ability of the Poles to fight as part as an effect unit under RAF command.
Very true.
Cut this out. Never forget that the Poles left their own country to continue to fight the Germans, and continued to fight even after their country was overrun by the Soviets and they knew they could never go home to a free country.
Keep watching..... You'll see the point I'm getting at if you do.😀
Dochodzisz do bezdennej głupoty 😂
Pilots joining from other countries are more likely to have experience and demonstrated initiative by getting here in the first place.
Over estimated victories were the bane of all the combatants. The Germans were convinced the RAF was almost done, the RAF thought they’d shot down over 100 on Eagle Day, USAF bombers thought they were knocking down fighters like skittles. This is hardly surprising, a few seconds of fire from multiple sources, several aircraft go down, everyone who fired thinks it was them!
That goes back to the Red Barron. A Canadian pilot got the credit but British and Australian machine gunners both claimed it was them. About a hundred years later we say based on a preponderance of the evidence it was probably the Australian machine gunner. I am not interested in going through that for every plane shot down in WWII. I am just grateful I have never had to put myself in harms way like they did.
My late father was a fighter pilot who flew Spitfires. He missed the BoB as he was too young. However, later in the war, he came across European pilots in the RAF, Czechs, Poles, F/French, all around 26/27 years of age (considered ancient for fighter pilots) who, according to Dad, 'couldn't half fly!' They were superb.
A big thank you to your dad and his mates in the RAF. I'm sure he had some incredible stories he shared with you.
@@CalibanRising Thank you. He initially flew Mk Vbs whilst based at West Malling. In Australia, he then flew Mk VIIIs as part of 549 Sqd. He's actually photographed with mates in Wiki amazingly.
You have a great channel. Keep going.👍
He started the engagement attacking a bomber formation, so not knowing about the 110s when he saw a twin aircraft coming at him he must have assumed it was one of the bomber and concluded on it being a Dornier when he saw the twin rudders as he closed range.
A closing opposite-direction aircraft is moving very quickly, even at modern civilian aircraft speeeds, you're still looking at 220mph or more collision speed. You're more likely to hear "WTF was that?" than "oh, a Cessna 152 came past"! At the speeds in 1940, your're looking at at least 500mph closing speed, and likely a lot more. Not time to be even frightened by it. As for gaining more than a momentary impression of configuration - forget it. I had 3 close calls from opposite direction aircraft in a civilian flying career of 20 years, and could only in one be confident of what is was. The only mystery is that these pilots got it in 1940 as often as they did!
Why hasn't this video been banned? - it's broken all the unwritten TH-cam rules by being well researched, from original sources, illustrations are good and relevant and he's even speaking slowly and clearly.
I loved the way he has consulted so many primary sources and brought the information together to figure out the probable truth and why the discrepancies might have happened.
This made me giggle. Thanks for watching mate!
I’m in Australia & only 2 days ago watched the movie Hurricane based on the 303 Squadron. Good movie to be honest. I’d now like to re watch it for any associations with your history presented. Aside from this my late father was a Master Layer (aircraft identifier); Lance Bombardier during WW2 in the AIF. He served briefly in the Middle East before returning to fight the Japanese in New Guinea. He topped his class initially to get the job in aircraft identification. One story he told was once they were under threat, subsequent attack from Japanese Zeros in their heavy antiaircraft guns position. As they approached his CO yells “Friendly aircraft…friendly aircraft!” To which dad replied “You stupid bastard, they’re Japanese Zeros!”, as the strafing started!😡 Dad was never questioned again on his assessments. “Lest We Forget”…
Sounds like the bloke you'd want next to you during an attack. A big thanks to your dad and his mates.
@@CalibanRising We can be thankful for our dedicated, selfless, Commonwealth Cousins & Allies!🙏🏻💪🏻
This was a great breakdown of an unimaginably complicated event. There's also the incredible quickness of aerial combat. Many times, the sightings that are described with such leisurely detail were only for fractions of a second, while the observer was also trying frantically to see everything!
Glad it was helpful!
For nerds like me, it's a revelation when someone studies old battle reports and gives the rest of us an extended analysis. Thanks!👍👍👍
It was really interesting putting this video together.
Modern analysis shows that No 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron had the highest number of confirmed kills in the Battle of Britain
They also got the first kill of the Battle of Britain so were fighting from the start
Modern is fake
Quite possible ,but 303 came into action 01 09 1940 , quite late
@@pawelchmielewski1 303 squadron didnt shoot down 126 Luftwaffe aircraft in just 42 days.
@@obvious-trolland why do you say so? What are your sources?
Source?
It's a film, it's fiction not a documentary.
Exactly the point.
The poor Poles, first they get excluded from the victory parade because the British didn't want to offend Stalin, now this.
Ironically you bring up another misconception there. In this video I'm actually praising these pilots and saying that the public have been misled about how these blokes conducted themselves.
Flt Sgt Josef Frantisek with 19 kills in the Battle, flew with 303 but was of course Czech not Polish.
Van der Valk trying to be a Squadron Leader
It may be a myth, but it's still funny as hell
Just employ Polish builders. Let them refurbish and rebuild your house to Polish standards. Than you will understand and stop haveing doubts in "Myths". A specially winter days.
Very clear about what is very unclear !
Brave men all but those Poles were extremely brave and very well trained ! Had they had modern aircraft in the early days the Germans would have suffered greater losses over Poland !
I can tell you one thing, Pilots in WWII didnt have Google, nor a lot of books about WWII air war.
What they had was few poor drawings of small silhouettes of German planes, often made just as artist impression of visual reports of other pilots... So confusing a Bf-110 for a Do-17 is not a big deal if you ask me...
If you imagine, you are in a real 3D world (not a computer game world) you are travelling at several hundred mph, you probably have dirt on the windscreen and sweat in your goggles, you can only look at the target for a second or two before you have to check there isn't an enemy plane on your tail, and you are trying to sort out a deflection angle before firing.
You really don't have time to get your I-Spy Book of German Aircraft out of your jacket pocket and leaf through it!
@@richardsimpson3792 yes, if you imagine that every other German tank in Normandy was a Tiger, and GIs did have much much more time to identify then fighter pilots.
"Apany" was a 303 Sqn codename at the time, "Apany leader" in that sortie was S/L Kellet, so we may safely assume that's whom Paszkiewicz meant.
As noted, Dorniers and Bf 110s had quite similar silhouette - twin engine, double rudder. I think when influenced by emotions, one could have easily mistook them. Incorrect identification occurred all the time during battle of Britain. Plenty of He 113s, Do 215s or mysterious Me 110 Jaguars were claimed...
I think nowadays it's most fair to say it was a shared victory by the two Hurricane pilots.
Fair enough. You're probably right about S/L Kellet. Just based on the ORB I couldn't say for sure but there are probably other squadron records I don't have access to.
@@CalibanRising Polish authors got to those other records and we know the other pilots (aside of Kellet & Paszkiewicz, flying RF-A and RF-V, respectively) were :
F/O Łapkowski, RF-Q
P/O Daszewski, RF-P
P/O Łokuciewski, RF-R
Sgt Wojciechowski, RF-U
We have the Hurricanes' serial numbers, too. Some of us probably know these names by heart, although no ranks or aircraft codes I suppose. ;D
Cheers for a neat material anyway, well done and thank you. Another interesting thing about the 303 Sqn is that its pilots got their last aerial victories in 1943 already - no aircraft shot down and nor damaged for the remaining two years... I think I read somewhere a suggestion that it was due to the verification system becoming more strict, the cameras mostly. But to be fair, there was less and less Luftwaffe in the air, the sorties they were assigned were not necessarily e/a oriented, and many (if not all) battle of Britain veterans were promoted, moved to other units or duties, some were dead or captured by 1943.
Also, something we tend to forget about the Polish pilots in general: they didn't really rank high among the allies' aces in the end of the war. The best of them were far below the likes of Clostermann, Pattle, Finucane or Gabreski. One of the top Poles on the list was Horbaczewski with 16,5 e/a claimed as destroyed. He may have the best win-to-sortie ratio among his compatriots. I am not sure about that, never counted, but the lad started flying operationally in 1941 and was killed in 1944, while Urbanowicz, Zumbach and S. Skalski fought throughout the war, 1939-1945.
Apany? As in "ha'p'nny", two syllables? Or meaning something else? (I didn't think the RAF used three syllable squadron codes.)
The German aircraft in question was attacked by a Hurricane just north of St. Albans, one of the German aircrew parachuted into the gardens of houses in School Lane, Great Offley in Hertfordshire, while the bomber a Dornier 17 flew on and crashed at Pegsden, just over the county boundary in Bedfordshire. You can find references to this from actual eyewitnesses at the time from the BBC People's War archive. One of the reports came from the son of the village policeman at Offley who cycled to Pegsden to see if he could find any souvenirs, he found the wreck wasn't guarded or so he thought, he climbed up to look into the cockpit, and just as he did so he jumped out of his skin as a local Bobby (Beds Police) pulled him down! Obviously a bit of amusement when he gave his address at the Police House, School Lane, Great Offley! Hopefully this information will help you identify the Dornier and who shot it down
That was a great piece of research! Nice to learn a more accurate account after all this time, no disrespect to the Poles. There is another film, a joint UK-Polish production called simply "303 Squadron" that was released in 2018. Have you seen it and what did you think of it? I would classify it as a bit clunky and for WWII aviation nerds, but probably more accurate. I see that it was based on a 1942 book by one of the participants. OT, Ian Gleed might be a good subject for another video.
Thanks for watching.
I haven't seen that one yet, I'll have to track it down. I generally enjoy any war film like this even if I know they aren't 100% accurate.
As explained to me , the ending of Mission or Honour aka Hurricane , was propaganda . What actually occurred is that the Attlee government sent notice the Polish Government in Warsaw ( installed by Stalin ) inviting the Polish Combatants , who fought for the allies , to participate in the VE Parade . The Polish Government in exile in Britain was offended by this , and instructed the Polish Combatants not to participate .
In 1947 , Britain brought in the Polish Resettlement Act , which offered citizenship to 250,000 Poles who fought against the Nazi's and were opposed to the Soviet take over of their country .
.
@@landsea7332 in other words, it's true that the Polish soldiers weren't invited. If what you're saying is true, Attlee sent the invitatiion to an illegal, undemocratic pseudo-government that had no control over what was happening in Britain and couldn't possibly send any soldiers to participate because the Poles in Britain recognised the legal government in London, not the illegal government in Warsaw.
In the meantime, the legal Polish government and the soldiers who stuck with Britain in its darkest hour and throughout the war, were shunned by the Attlee government because he wanted to please Stalin.
Your claim that the "Polish Govt in Exile was offended and instructed the combatants not to participate" doesn't hold water and is illogical. The soldiers weren't invited by the British government, so how can you tell someone to ignore an invitation they didn't receive?
Secondly, I've read dozens of books on the subject, including books by Polish historians, and I've never heard of this situation. Can you point me to any (reliable) sources?
Great analysis and mythbusting, thank you. Film makers often do cause confusion.
Thanks for watching John.
More great fact checking. There really doesn't seem any question that it was the BF110 that Wicks shot down that was involved here.
Yeah, sure. Paszkiewicz missed from 20 ft, while Wicks could see "bits flying off the aircraft" after he dangerously closed to 160 yards. Makes perfect sense...
BTW - I don't know about you guys, but the story of the first 303 kill we are familiar with is pretty much how you say it is. "Pasza" tried to communicate, probably fumbled something with the radio and just went for it. Sure, usually people say it was a Dornier, but I did read at some point that it was an early sighting of a 110 too.
I misspoke, should have said 20 yards not feet. But yes, it's interesting that they didn't report the same thing.
@@CalibanRising It still looks like he shot at a German, who was unaware of his presence.
" *it's interesting that they didn't report the same thing* "
Quite typical, though. I've been in a few stressful situations, which I thought I could remember very well, but then the sequence of events, as reported by other people, was very different.
I mean, like really crucial stuff was either totally omitted or told out of order, at least from my point of view.
Our memory is weird like that.
I love that the auto play brought me straight into a 2min video called the first kill of 303 (or something) with just read out the one side of what you've just said and concluded, and this is how it happend.
They were veteran aces who had already fought the germans and crossed europe to continue on the fight. They were treated like novices.
They WERE novices in the RAF using Hurricanes.
@lyndoncmp5751 well, obviously they were new to hurricanes and they were new to the RAF but they were far more experienced as far as combat pilots go.
@@_R0BB_
I wouldn't say far more experienced. The Polish campaign didnt last long and in the meantime the RAF had the Phoney War period which still saw air activity, then the French campaign/Dunkirk and the early part of the Battle of Britain. By the time the Poles got combat active in the Battle of Britain, the RAF had a lot of constant activity and experience for sure.
Yet the polish 303 squadron had the Highest rate of aces and highest kill count of RAF squadrons.. interesting. Could be due to the pilot shortage and the whole putting pilots into combat with 10 hours in a spit or hurricane.@@lyndoncmp5751
No disrespect to the Poles, but they were about 5% of RAF pilots and the Czechs provided nearly as many pilots, but never get a mention.
It's a romantic story, but it's a myth that Britain was bailed out by our allies.
Nikt tak nie twierdzi. Zwycięstwo zawsze ma wielu ojców. Ciekawe dlaczego polscy piloci mieli taki szacunek? Bili po mordach Anglików?
Stress of combat the Bf 110 and Do 17 both have twin tails and 2 engines.
Excellent. Repeat Please!
Thank you... in Polish.
The story of the Poles first air combat action is documented in the book "Destiny Can Wait". The BoB movie follows the same telling of the story. The British handed Poland over to the Soviets. They treated the Polish pilots like they were inexperienced idiots, when in fact they had more combat flying time than any of the British pilots. The British took over control of the Polish 1st Independent Parachute Brigade and then proceeded to blade them for their failure in operation Market-Garden. The British refused to allow the Poles to march in the victory parade so as not to upset uncle Joe. For all that the Poles did for Britain and the Allies, the British then wanted all the Poles in the country to leave even if it meant certain death if they returned to Poland. Now a Brit wants to take away from the Poles this great story. Stop! Haven't you done enough damage?
No, this Brit wants the Poles to have the correct story told, not some popularised scene that paints them as ill-disciplined blood-thirsty thugs. It's all in the video mate, the one you didn't watch.
He isn't taking any credit from the Polish pilots, just watch the video.
At the time were there people complaining about Poles coming over here taking British jobs?
Imagine my unbridled joy, flying in an online mission set in the Battle of Britain in 'IL2 1946 Multiplayer. when an actual Polish player uttered that iconic phrase unbidden!
"Repeat please!"
LMAO
The poles were always excellent soldiers. The methods were archaic and they lost quickly on the ground at the initial invasion. Plus confusion Russia was invading from the other side. The poles that came together were bad arse men.
Dear. Poles weren't gods. But they come back while the rest of the RAF died screaming. Even Poles in not-Polish squadrons lived much longer than their British colegues. Blame Dowding for streamlining whole RAF training into creating cheap, disposable pilots.
I did a lot of research into this in another video. Basically if you were a Pole in the UK in 1940 you probably had years of pre-war training. If you were in the RAFVR and had completed your training that year you wouldn't have the level of skill a Pole had. I don't see how Dowding could condense years of training into a few months, so probably not a fair comparison: th-cam.com/video/7rMPLEAzbHI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks from an Old F-4 Phantom 2 pilot Shoe🇺🇸
Thanks for watching Steve!
O k*rwa, Niemcy! We revere our pilots as somewhat tragic heroes over here, valliant fighters doomed by great politics, a skeleton in the British closet. It's nice to see you restoring their honour. Cheers from Poland!
Thanks for watching!
Nie dziękuj. Tworzysz bzdury po 83 latach.
My late father was shot up over the Bristol channel by spitfires when test flying a Lockheed Hudson.....so I think we can give both those pilots the benefit of the doubt, after all they were not sitting in an office at the time.
Great bit of research.
Thanks for watching Russell!
Van der Valk lol. Youd think a Dutch detective may have been a bit more aware lol😂😂😂😂😂
Depends where they attacked from. If above or below its not likely to have a good outcome. Only any use if at eye level.
I'll get my coat.
I saw the movie 303 Squadron On TH-cam Premium- now I am getting recommendations like yours !!
You do know that 229 sqn was operating out of Northolt in 1940, flying Hurricanes, and their codes were RE? I'm very familiar with this story as my grandfather was the RAF Intelligence Officer on 303 Sqn from mid July 1940, when the sqn was being organised prior to it's standing up on 02 Aug, to end of Jan 1941. It s long been acknowledged that the EA that Pazskiewicz claimed was a Bf110 and not a Dornier.
My favourite scene in any film ever. Never actually thought it was real, though.
My favourite polish WW2 story is the destroyer Poiron versus the Bismarck.
Your research here is fantastic. Well done. I’ve done a bit of proper research and it’s quite hard getting facts corroborated. Just picked up two of Chris Shores books on Malta - Hurricane Years and Spitfire Year. Great for someone doing the hard work for you.
Great video again. Getting a bit boring saying that all the time! :)
Cheers mate. I know what you mean about getting 'facts' to line up. This is really where the video came from. I read this combat report, then read some of the secondary sources and nothing made sense.
I've also got the same books on my reading list. Malta is another really fascinating campaign I'd love to learn more about.
Piorun ⚡️
Poir makes it sounfmd leeky.
@@CalibanRising Oh well. If you’re ever in West London I’ve a half a book shelf you can help yourself to. The Shores books are excellent though as they are essentially a collation of primary sources. Most striking thing I noticed was the enormous over claiming - especially from the axis. Where their aces /experts given status on their claims or are they now re- evaluated by opposition collation of details?
Read Geoffrey Wellum Book first light . A brilliant read written by a man that did the training and fought in the Battle of Britain. You I’ll then understand the training the RAF fighter pilots went through. You certainly didn’t jump into a Spitfire on opps after 20 hours training.
One of the fastest 'kills' ever was by the Poles stationed at Liverpool airport.
2 German bombers (i think they were 111's) were spotted on approach from the Liverpool estuary going to bomb the Manchester Ship Canal lock gates (directly opposite Liverpool airport on the Wirral peninsula).
One of the bombers was damaged on approach and turned back, the second continued on its course but, was intercepted by the Polish squadron of Hurricanes who were only a few hundred feet high after taking off.
The 111 was shot down a few hundred yards from the lock gates and remains buried on the banks of the Mersey (Bromborough)
The German pilot was the only member of the flight crew to survive and i met him when he was invited to return to the crash site (around 1990).
He told me a couple of stories i can't repeat but, suffice to say he was happy he was captured by the locals and not the Poles.
That is incorrect, thebelieved fastest kill of WW2 from (during) take off was as you say from RAF Speke, but wasn't a Polish Sqn, it was by No.312 (Czech) Fighter Sqn and not by a Czech, but by Flight Lieutenant D E Gillman (Flight Commander) when he Destroyed a Ju88 on October 8th 1940 while his Hurricanes undercarriage was still retracting!
The title is a typical clickbait. During the battle, it was easy to confuse enemy aircraft. There was not Internet with hundreds of photos of planes taken from different angles to compare. The knowledge of the pilot was based mainly on intelligence documents. The Germans always confused Russian planes (e.g. LaGGs with Yaks), and the Americans always shot at the Japanese Zeros (but in fact most of them were Oscars).
All these years. All the times I've watched the film. And I never spotted the Buchons! 😂
Also the absence of Junkers JU88s, Dornier DO17s and Messerschmitt BF110s. The film makers had to work with what planes were available, and they did a pretty good job. Only the JU87s are models, that couldn't be avoided as they were essential to the story.
I have to admit it's only when I filmed this "reaction" segment about 20 times that I spotted it.
A little bit off topic but many years ago i met an old lady who told me that the German bomber's came to northolt during the day. She said that there was no air raid sirens as she put it she seen them coming over her house in greenford and our boys came to attack them. So the bomber turned back and dropped the bombs on the house's to get away. She said that she saw the bombs dropping so ran to get under the stairs. When she came out the next street a number of house's had been flattened. Just off Ruislip road. Any insight for that? Would love to know
Just from your description it could be a low level attack on RAF Northolt on 6th October 1940. The 303 squadron Operation Record Book describes a single raider with some bombs landing on the airfield and one pilot, Sgt. Suidsk being killed. However, it doesn't look like 303 squadron got off the ground. If I come up with anything else I'll comment again.
@@CalibanRising much appreciated. If you could I would be very happy to learn
If you're getting your history from movies, you're getting no history at all. You have to look at the greater picture and the contribution of squadron 303 is undeniable and so is the kick they got in the gonads after the war.
The greater picture is that Poles numbered under 150 pilots out of nearly 3,000 and 'only' took out about 5% of German planes lost. While they helped, so did the hundreds of other non British pilots.
So let's not get carried away.
@lyndoncmp5751 159 pilots took out 5% of the Luftwaffe and you don't think that's significant, chump?
@lyndoncmp5751 159 pilots accounted for 5% of the losses and you don't think that's significant? Carry yourself away and quit embarrassing yourself.
@@TheRaferaf
When you learn how to reply like an adult and not a child then I'll take you seriously.
@@lyndoncmp5751 get L. Ost pissNut.
I`ll take Pinewood over Hollywood Anytime, fantastic Film and the Poles did amazing, if crazy stunts. I live close to the Polish Memorial (Northolt, W London) and these Heroes were BADLY let down at the end of hostilities, shame on the`Allies`. Slava Ukraine, don`t let history repeat.
Good points from that scene in the “Battle of Britain” and its worth watching to dispel myths.
You all totally discount the power of revenge. Especially those of you who say the Poles had more flight experience than the Brits.
Maybe so BUT most, if not all of the Polish pilots personally knew someone who’d been tortured and/or executed by the Germans..
(…AND also Russians. Let’s not forget Poland was invaded by Nazi germany AND Soviet Union in accordance with the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement)
That kind of life experience equals hundreds and hundreds of flying hours in terms of sheer determination and commitment to killing the enemy.
I agree with you that aggressiveness is vital in a fighter pilot. It's certainly a quality that aircrew whose countries weren't occupied would have felt to a lesser degree. However, without the pre-war training these fleeing Poles had undergone, they wouldn't have been as effective. We can't discount the importance of actual flight experience.
@@CalibanRising true.
Experience AND total commitment produce the best pilots.
Seems to me quite likely that both allied pilots fired at the BF110 and each thought that his hits were the ones that brought it down. Which one did we'll never know.
An experienced pilot wouldn't go head-on with a Me-110 or anything looking like a Me-110. A Me-110 had heavy armament in the nose.
Nie znasz Polaków. My nie pytamy ilu ich jest? Tylko gdzie są.?
It's still a word against a word, unless British reports are considered more truthful than Polish ones. The only thing that is known is that Witold Paszkiewicz did not engage a Dornier but most likely a Bf110.
Overclaiming is actually shown in the "Battle of Britain" film; "...a third of a kill, laddie. A third of one..."
You know, Paszkiewicz in fact going head on with a BF-110 would've almost ended suicidally for him and he could have been shot down right there and then, but even if he did sacrifice himself early on, i'm sure that wouldn't be in vain. Northolt probably got hold of Wicks's report from No. 56, must've figured Paszkiewicz shared the kill with him and gave No. 303 operational status.
Brilliant stuff!....Ta chap ✌️
Cheers Brian!
You Brits didn't trust the Poles so you kept them busy on training flights
Sometimes you dig up the past you GET DIRTY
The Poles were better trained and had probably more flying hours than our home grown pilots and had already fought against the "feared" Luftwaffe.
I just gotta say this... "repeat please" ....
This is brilliant. As always the movies (just like the media) never let the truth spoil a good story.
Movies are to entertain, docos are to inform. Big difference between the two.
Yep, Paszkiewicz took part in shooting down of Messerschmitt Bf 110 (M8+MM/Wnr 3615) from Zerstörergeschwader 76.
He could mistake Me-110 for a Dornier because some Do-17 were quite similar from certain angles, mostly recon Do-17s like Es for example. Misidentification and overclaiming is a common problem when it comes to air combat.
Thankfully not that many pilots during the war were intentionally lying like Hartmann or many, many Soviet pilots. At certain level when overclaiming becomes pure lies it affects how air forces fight and how doctrines develop.
Thanks for posting the video, it serves a good purpose since the iconic scene from the movie is well known.
Brits were notorious for lying about kills
i really appreciate your very soft and subtle way to educate the public a simple fact that polish pilots were liars.
Have another watch, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Brilliant investigation!
"Porkie pies?" 😀
You told us so much about yourself there.
😀
Very interesting indeed. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it Colin.
This demonstrates the difficulty in assembling usable intelligence from combat reports.
Brilliant K5083 George Bulman Hawker Hurricane
You're only the second person to notice that!
Take some British fighter pilots who were mostly long time pre-war regulars, have them have to get back to the UK from Poland on their own resources umm say like a POW so you know these guys are hard core, keen, full of initiative and dedicated to flying and fighting.
Take those that make it back into a new Squadron altogether give them more training abroad say in Canada or the USA, put obstacles and red tape in their way, then perhaps put them in the far east say and have them fight in the AVG.
Don't be surprised they perform better than many if not most other regular RAF Squadrons now missing many of those experience pilots from losses and filled with green kids with under 10hrs total flying training and put them up against a largely more trained and experienced enemy.
Guess the results! It is a recipe for creating an cohesive perhaps elite Unit but says zero about Nation flying characteristics.
Nor did one squadron alone win the Battle of Britain, most of the 'exile'/'foreign' Squadrons did well by their nature its why the Gurkha and French Foreign Legion units are still a thing.
Couldn't agree more. I've always thought it was obvious that the Poles, Czechs etc who had fought through Poland, France and now Britain would perform well. The chaff has been weeded out and these guys are extremely motivated and skilled.
That was super interesting
Phil, at 04:05 ish you mentioned the /starboard/ engine, (also at 04:40 you said 'one of the occupants'; incidentally if there was already a parachute in the air either both men got out or he was from another aircraft) so presumably the E/A was an ME-110. Unusual as I'd have thought they'd have kept to escorting bombers, not taking on single engine fighters. Also if he was 20 feet away he'd be right in the cone of fire of the 110's rear gunner, who at that range really shouldn't miss, yet no incoming fire is mentioned at all.
If the E/A /was/ a Dornier it doesn't seem feasible that none of the crew would see a Hurricane, especially a flight of them.
Very good video. I'm Polish and this makes it even more interesting for me. I have one question. 20 feet? This is 6 meters. Is it possible to fly so closely behind another plane? Maybe it was supposed to be 20 yards (18,3 meters). The distance of 18m is definitely more realistic.
Thanks for watching, and for the correction. You're right, I should have said yards and not feet. Sorry, I didn't catch that in my edit.
A jednak i tu robisz błędy 😂
"20 ft"
20 yards.
"normal circumstances"
If he faced near the sun at that point, not being able to properly ID the target plane is an easy mistake.
As one example.
"shared kill"
That is also my guess as to what was most likely what happened.
The guns used at the time were only RCMGs, not visibly seeing damage happen doesn't say much.
I didn’t know that 303 squadron in the movie were in 109s as well as hurricans!
Never watch any war film for historical accuracy, they are for dramatic entertainment.
If you are genuinely interested carryout research as you have done.
I like the prototype Hurricane tee shirt.
Ha! You are the first one to notice that (and comment)!
two officers arguing over a misidentification does not make good cinema.... "Repeat".....
I forgot to add, that one of the German pilots is buried in Hitchin Cemetry along St Johns Road
Well. If you're going to be pedantic. First of all, Fighter Command had a very clever, unique way of fighter control coupled with horrible formations. That is why experienced pilots needed the training. Even the pilots drafted in from Coastal had to do it!
The formations were vital to get a number of aircraft into position together but the ones the RAF used, especially at the beginning of the battle, ie V formations were tactically inferior to the Schwarm and Rotte favoured by the Luftwaffe.
As far as misidentification is concerned, you make the point yourself that sitting in an office, 80 odd years later makes a difference. He's in combat, has already decided it's a bomber, (confimation bias) if it turns into him, there'll be a closing speed in excess of 400 mph! At best he'd see it for a second or two, in a high stress environment trying to hit it whilst avoiding collision! It was also his first combat so an understandable element of fear of the unknown would come into play.
Finally, the film takes some pretty large liberties with the facts to make the story, it's not a documentary after all. I think it represents the Polish squadrons in a reasonable light. Keen, eager, highly skilled but initially with a language and fighter doctrine issues that was solved fairly quickly. I also think it made a good point when Hawks got shot dow ( "Good Afternoon my ar#e" scene) about the obvious accent these heroes had and the British fear of 5th columnists.
Nonetheless, an interesting video thanks for sharing!