@@julianmarpez3931 I wouldn't trust them to do anything remotely good with the Odyssey these days. They should just review the one with Armand Assante.
I like the way Roel Konijnendijk explains what happened in reality. He "juggles" three things: 1) the original story from different sources and general knowledge about that time and those events; 2) understanding of why filmmakers made some changes; 3) keeping in mind how his explanations sound for non-historian viewers.
The movie trys to be fair (ish) to all sides so it would be an interesting discussion. I expect like any of these kind of movies it touches of things being correct, just out of order by time/location or who does it.
@@JackSmith-ns1uqHow is history considered Taboo?? Wars over religion has always existed and will always exist. Nothing taboo about the subject matter of the Crusades.
Peter O'Toole's performance in Achilles' tent is beyond description. Some of the finest acting I've ever seen. He delivers every syllable with such gravitas, sorrow and respect in equal measure.
When 'No Toole', as the Spitting Image generation will always remember him, gets down on one knee and continues pleading with Achilles to return Hector's body, it goes on cringe-makingly long. Typical Hollywood LCD overdoing things. That's probably why Our Pete hated it.
"The are no pacts between lions and men." is a line that goes so hard. I didn't know it was taken directly from the Iliad itself, but it sure does sound like something an ancient greek action hero would say.
Er, he says it was taken directly from The Illiad. which is about a century before Aesop's Fables, so if anything Aesop was quoting Homer (which would bee entirely plausible since Roel even says the Homeric poems were basically _the_ Greek literature that everyone would immediately know & recognize)
Considering this guy is obviously a major scholar of homeric literature, and loves the iliad. He's very fair and not set in his ways about the adaptation. It's refreshing.
I think he understands that the basic goal the movie has is to restructure the plot into a more contemporary political narrative, and he doesn't mock it for that even as he points out how it twists or ignores the source material to suit that goal.
Indeed, he acknowledges that they have modified the story to include themes about nation building etc., but he accepts that great literature gets re interpreted by successive generations to suit their social norms
Imagine modern audiences being shown a scene where, instead of fighting, Hector runs around the outskirts of Troy not once, not twice; but three times LMFAO The only people who criticize Troy for its “inaccuracy” are people who haven’t read the Iliad. 😂
@@hellbound64 Joel made his famous first appearance on one of those videos of "expert rates scenes on movies" and he, being the realistic historical warfare expert that he is, commented on the surprising lack of ditches in popular media, "where's the ditch? You gotta have a ditch" "to defend winterfell from the army of the dead first you need to dig ditches....LOTS AND LOTS OF DITCHES"
When it came out, I was SO relieved it wasn't swords ALL the time, that spears got as much as they did. The scene in the tent was damn close to perfect. I loved the way Hector fought workmanlike, Achilles was an inspired dancer - that was not realistic - but giving an idea of inspiration, of being a bit diviine, I "got" what they were doing. The start - when the guy got the spear thrown through the head, and you saw the graphic hole. That was PERFECT, a representation of all the graphic descriptions of how a weapon cut through that body part, then that, then the night descended on his eyes.
Yep. They held out for 10 years without ditches so that must be why they fell. It had nothing to do with the Trojans opening/destroying the gate to bring in that horse full of soldiers.
@@Jaded_Jester have you ever tried to pull a huge wooden horse over a ditch? ;) No this is about Roel emphasizing very much the importance of ditches in other videos.
Achilles cross-dressing to avoid going to war has to be one of the most hilarious plot points ever. When I was studying Ancient Greek in high school, and we reached this bit of the Iliad, we were laughing for quite a while. We were lucky enough to have a teacher who thoroughly enjoyed explaining these moments in the Iliad and the Odyssey.
@@Cailus3542 It's definitely a legit story I've heard before, even if its not directly in the Iliad.... from what I can recall of the story he's in hiding and the way they find him is by blowing war horns, and while all the other "ladies" react in horror, he immediately grabs for weapons, right?
@@KS-xk2so It's in the Trojan cycle. It's like all the King Arthur myths which forms an epic cycle. It's not a single novel in the way we have stories today. Ancient tales were spoken way before they were written down and everyone was adding their own bit, which after centuries of retelling expanded into entire mythologies. Homer's epics are a retelling of part of these stories.
I like how the Illiad in essence is a story about the dangers of wrath. The wrath of Achilles, Agemennon, Hector. Its rather fascinating that such an old piece of literature still has themes relevant to our current society.
I'd agree. Incredibly innaccurate, but who cares? They certainly nail the legacy of Achilles warrior ways, and his combat scenes look incredible. I think part of the reason I enjoy it is I find the real story kind of gets cock blocked by the gods all the time.... like sometimes I want them to just shut it and let me enjoy a regular war epic.... given that the movie pretty much removes them, it kinda has that vibe. I'm also glad they leaned into making Paris a bitch too..... though him actually killing Achilles at the end pisses me off. They should've had Paris trip and fall into a cart full of horse shit and that accidentally bumps a random crossbow that goes off and gets Achilles completely by accident or something. Anything would've been better than what they went with.
I've seen "Troy" several times but I never noticed the lamas in that one scene until now lol. I feel like that's such a Hollywood producer move. Producer: "We need more farm animals for this scene!" Assistant: "Well we have lamas from some local people we could borrow but that wouldn't' be historically accur..." Producer: "Put em in!" (slams the table)
It’s also inaccurate that the trojans were riding horses, though they were depicted as being horse enthusiasts. Horses were for pulling chariots in the bronze age, not riding.
The better nod to The Aeneid would have been to make Aeneas a whiny so-and-so. Worst hero ever. (Maybe I'm biased because I got utterly sick of translating "pius aeneas" a million times when I was a schoolboy)
@@MarvinT0606 Because Paris was supposed to die long before Troy fell. Aneneas was the one who tried to rescue as many Trojians as possible and evacuated them from the fallen city.
It's a shame the good doctor missed mentioning that the dancing girls at the party - they wore very reasonable interpretations of the Minoan/ Mycenean fashions that predominated the proto-Greek culture of the time. They showed his dog! Odysseus' dog is surprisingly, a relatively important character in his story; he saved his owner when younger, in a boar hunt (leaving Odysseus with a scar on his leg instead of- you know, dead), & recognises him before anyone else, on his return (after essentially 20 years away)- he's pretty much just holding onto life until his master returns, before dying at a grand old age for a dog...
Yeah, that part sucked donkey balls. No one recognises him, and he meets his bestest goodest friend and then Argos dies. I'd start the butchery right there.
Excellent breakdown as always. Thanks. I especially appreciate that you put things in the proper context: there's the source material and there's the fact that this is a modern movie.
Roel Konijnendijk, ancient historian at Oxford, decided to represent his Dutch roots by not showing the Iliad in original Greek or an English translation, but the Dutch Salamander series paperback.
Another fascinating video by Dr Konijnendijk, interesting comparisons to the source material, hugely informative and some really great insights into ancient Greek society as well, can't wait for more.
Very clever intro of Odysseus/Ulysses: patting his faithful dog, the only one - never mind the number of years passed - who will recognize him when he returns in the sequel, The Odyssey.
I liked Terry Prachett's version of Helen. Elenor of Tsort. By the time Rincewind and crew show up to "rescue" her, the war has been going on ten years. Eric was expecting to see the face that launched a thousand ships. So he is disappointed to find her a rather plump mother of seven children, with bit of a squint and the beginnings of a mustache.
@@HanaVys I'm not sure I know those names, not ringing any bells. I just want Sean Bean to do it because I thought he did well in that role and I love his voice, his opening narration to Troy is great
The biggest lesson Troy and the source material itself teaches is that, while Achilles might seem the "cooler" dude at first glance, you should always strive to be more like Hector
"No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus! By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man - some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive - than rule down here over all the breathless dead." : Achilles, the Odyssey.
All heroes have good and bad moments, they are human, flawed, chasing honor, glory and happiness, all have some good in them. Except Agamemnon, fuck that guy
@@AndrewNiccolTrue, Achilles has the quintessential hero arc. But Hector is no villain, he is the tragic hero, fighting out of duty, to preserve what he loves, his city, his wife, his children. He has to fight, it was not his choice. And he only faces Achilles in a duel because he gets tricked by the gods, because they have destined him to die. He might not be the hero of the story, but you would rather like to have someone like him as your neighbor than Achilles
Professor Konijnendijk is really awesome. It's super engaging to listen to him because you can just feel his immense passion for these topics. I hope we get to see him in more videos like this! :)
Priam: you had taken everything from me my Eldest Son air to my Throne Defender of my Kingdom 😢 Achilles: What about Paris? Priam: I sed you had taken everything from me Achilles 😢
There's a bit that the doctor doesn't mention. King Priam tells Achilles to stop being a dick. Heroes deserve to be sent off properly. Hector did his duty and died for his country. Achilles is being difficult by insulting his memory and his body over his internal rage. That is Hubris. Gods don't like that. Besides, Hector is in the afterlife but soon, Achilles will be also.
Aaaahhh this guy!!! ❤❤ I've watched other videos of him talking about history and movies, although I think it was on another youtube channel. So, glad to know he's participating here too, always a pleasure to hear his comments! ✨I'm saving this video to watch it later, with this man one should take time to listen properly😌
13:57 I just want to point out that in addition to the other aspects of their relationship, making Patroclus Achilles' YOUNGER cousin that Achilles has to look after is exactly the opposite of what the Iliad tells us. There's literally a scene where we're told that before they went off to war, Patroclus' father reminded him that HE needed to look out for Achilles and give him good advice because HE was the older of the two.
@@psarri72 Yes they were and there are a BUNCH of evidences for that. As the same way Alexander and Hephaestion were definitely lovers. Your christian homophobics opinions do not matter.
I really like videoes of this guy. He can tell you about the factual mistakes and what is incorrect, without being condescending. He can praise the movie despite it's mistakes (however dubious it might be), being able to see the value as an entertainment product despite it not being correct like a documentary.
I wouldn't even say "mistakes", because it's not like the writers somehow didn't notice all the instances of gods playing with the hero's like a six year old with his action hero figures. They just made the reasonable decision to leave the whole supernatural out, and have fights last longer than three seconds. I very much approve that, just as I liked including the Homeric mind-set of heros, and the importance of gifts, funerals, decorum and so on. It is so, so, _so_ rare for a movie to not just implant 20th / 22st century mind sets & values into historical characters, so I thoroughly enjoy it when it happens.
Those comments are ditching hilarious !! As far as the movie, it's one of my guilty pleasures : it's definitely not an accurate movie, or really even a "good" one. But there's so many great actors in it that i can't help but sort of enjoy it ...
I like how he points out that, historically, duels didn't really settle conflicts between major powers, unlike what is often portrayed in movies. That makes a lot of sense.
I really enjoyed this. I was passingly familiar with the themes and main characters of The Iliad and the Odyssey, but have never read them, except for the odd passage or two in high school. I've been a casual fan of Greek mythology since childhood. I listened to Stephen Frye's book, Troy, several times, and Mythos and Heroes even more. After watching this, I note he stuck closely to the source material with his own delightful storytelling. I was very entertained by your video and loved hearing you tie together - for me - history, The Iliad (and to a lesser extent, The Odyssey), and my beloved Mythos trilogy. Subscribed!
Amazing video. I might have just added, at the end, the fact that they represented Paris and the rest fleeing was actually a call back to another ancient text, the Aeneid, where a group of Trojans escape from the burning city, and then end up founding Rome. It would have been a nice add on, also considering that other sources were in some way added to the Iliad for completion of the saga of Troy
Funnily enough, some of the earliest coins ever found are from Lydia--an ancient kingdom that was close to the historical Troy. The coins were from around 600-650 BC, though, whereas the Trojan War (if it even happened) is supposed to have occurred centuries before that, in the 12th-13th centuries BC.
@@Unknown-jt1jo You know what? I have learned about the Homeric epics since the days of my early childhood (since here in Greece the Epics are a big deal) and since my 14 years of age I knew that coins were a 7th century Anatolian invention and yet I never combined those 2 pieces of information together and discredit Homer for anachronism!
Another at least one hour story re-revealed to me by Roel, and - again - well spent time! It takes few momnts to realize the mastery of language of historian... Roel, how you tell us the differences to originals is one thing, but the craftmanship of your storytelling is amazing!
Am I the only person that actually liked the Movie? It’s amazing that you know all this information, I could listen to you talk about the Ancient world all day! Great teacher
It's a fun movie, a lot of people like it. I enjoy it as well mostly due to the fantastic performances from the cast. But from a historical accuracy standpoint it's pretty much on Braveheart level.
@@samright4661 true, it's hard to get to that level of bad. But somehow Ridley Scott seems to be able to consistently achieve it. Kingdom of Heaven was just as horrible from a historical standpoint. Painting Europe as a dark age cesspit when it was literally going through a wealthy renaissance period due to the success of the previous crusade, making Balian some young country bumpkin that's somehow fantastic at everything when in reality he was already a middle-aged man by that point who, thanks to his noble birth had been trained since childhood in all the things he's good at in the movie. The list just goes on and on with the worst being the character assassinations of Sybilla and Guy de Lusignan.
Ohhhh, seconded. Although that's probably not Konijnendijk area of expertise; I think he's for Antiquity warfare. Of course, I would love to be wrong about that if it means getting a Kingdom of Heaven Deep Dive.
I enjoyed Dr Konijnendijk's description of the fighting of duels, with regard to the man-to-man fight between Achilles and Hector in the film, and how in all the original material these were over in two or three strokes, rather than being long, drawn-out battles. And, in fact, if you watch fencing or swordfight re-creations you'll see that's the case: the action is so swift you can only barely follow it, and the point is scored in seconds. (Admittedly, the greatest swordfight on film, in Richard Lester's The Three Musketeers, goes on quite a bit, but, again, that's a cinematic treatment.) The level of concentration and skill required to actually engage in one of these types of fights is utterly beyond me. Of course, if they'd had a ditch, maybe it really would have gone on that long.
Wow, what a great 2-minute video! I especially enjoyed the 47 mid-roll ads that gave me time to make dinner, write a novel, and solve world peace. The actual content was a nice break between the advertisements. 5/5 would watch ads again!
Please keep the deep dives coming, these are fantastic! Even if the Dr didn’t mention ditches this time. Which the walls of Troy could have really used!
I like that one scene where the Trojan King asks his General if they can win, and the General is like "Our walls have never been breached, we have the finest archers in the world, and.... we... have DITCHES! YES, WE CAN WIN!"
Boibe (Βοίβη) appears once in the catalogue of the ships (2.712). Apparently, it was a city in Thessaly. Eumelus is said to come from there and bring eleven ships with him (2.713). No idea why they decided to include a random city that is only mentioned once and is related to a hero who doesn't even appear in the movie.
Presumably because they had presented Thessaly as a place to be conquered to secure the Greek empire along with Troy, the map maker was being clever by sneaking in a little nugget to support the script. Or cocaine. Never doubt the power of cocaine in Hollywood.
@@kevinmorgan2968 I wouldn't be surprised if in earlier versions of the script the site of the opening battle and names of the involved characters were mentioned in more detail, but later simplified away for the sake of not forcing the audience to remember too many names in a short span of time, as sometimes happens. Inclusion of "Boibe" on the map may be an artefact of that or something
@@joaquindominguezarduengo7298 Thessaly Thessalia in Greek (it's still called the same even now by the way) means Thesis alós and it's a very old name when all the place was a big lake so emense it looked like sea .In Homer the sea is Als -alós !Alati =salt comes from the root!Thanks!
@@kevinmorgan2968 I am sorry but your knowledge of ancient Mediterranean history Greeks were and are Cretans Aioleis Ionians Thessalians Macedonians and they also were almost in every shore around Mediterranean.The evidence of this is that only Hellenes could take part in Olympic games !They spoke the same language and had the same gods !You better study some more !
@@kevinmorgan2968 And by the way there was never a Greek empire in ancient Greece There were city states that frequently fought with one another!When you say empire you mean Roman empire and later the Eastern Roman empire !Look you probably have some dislike for Greek history but there's no good or bad in history and that is exactly! history!
Regarding 3:40, I think the Menelaus hosting the Trojans is something referenced in the Iliad, not at home to check chapter reference but I remember it being mentioned to Menelaus in a sort of negative way, that people he hosted would backstab him.
I saw Roel face I started watching immediately, these guy is great ! He reviewed 300 to and cool trivia is one actor - Vincent Regan played in both movies... there as Artemis and here as Audoros
@@KS-xk2so love that comment :D did you used swords and sandals terms knowing about that small epic game ? :P I yes that's even cooler :D or maybe it was a term that simply comes to your mind
ah, you misunderstood what they were trying to portray with Achilles' death. He was shot in the heel and multiple times in the chest. He died from his wounds in the chest but he pulled the arrows out, leaving only the one in the heel, so when his body was found, it looked like he died from a shot in the heel, sprouting the legend. I personally think it's a very good way to represent a realistic account of the story that doesn't involve supernatural feats and beings.
Same here! It was very clear that the number of arrors killed him, and of course - as the Master of Ditches himself pointed out - all the mythological stuff like gods and divine intervention was left out, so the whole "bathed in a dragons blood but a leaf fell on his shoulder" or such couldn't be used. But as you said: it was a nice nod to the mythology, and could even be seen as a starting point of the myth.
Another absolute banger of a video. Now if I ever get rich beyond imagination I want to create a movie version with the gods and absolutely include Roel Konijnendijk as advisor.
I love the Ditch Lord's commentary. Always informative, detailed, insightful and entertaining and I get to learn a bit more beyond what is on film. Oh, and praise be the ditch!
DOCTOR ROEL! OMG, OUR VERY OWN AND MOST CHERISHED "DITCH GUY". ❤😊❤ Oh, how long was the time without his knowledge and his adorable way of teaching. Please, invite him for more!
I don't know how Troy could have been made similar to the book/poem without being a bit goofy, because of the odd nature of the gods being prevalent. One can't help but think of, "Clash of the Titans" if they were to manifest the gods, but not putting the gods in the movie kinda removes the motivation of, well, everyone.
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these long format breakdowns of whole movies are so good,keep em coming
'cause history is facts...untill we find something "new" 😲
I know it was already by one historian but I wanna see Dan Snow break down Braveheart lol
@@dallesamllhals9161 Yes that's how things work. Welcome to the world of beyond third grade understanding of how things work.
Kingdom of Heaven should definitely be on the list! (directors cut please)
@@dallesamllhals9161 Was this supposed to sound clever? Or make sense?
HistoryHit, make more episodes with Roel!!! He is the best guest on your show in my opinion!!! He's so interesting to listen to!
I agree, give him his own series! We need more Ditch talk!
Tristan is great, too. Two things can be true at once. 😉
HistoryHit, if you see this. We need him featured in the podcasts too. Especially The Ancients. That would be amazing, thanks.
I agree, give this man his own series please!
Maybe he'll start a channel and name it Ditch Talk
Kind Odysseus of Ithaca, a character so badass even Sean Bean dosen’t die playing him
It's been 20 years since this movie... Time for someone to film an Odyssey adaptation without gods and call it "Ithaca", maybe?? 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
@@julianmarpez3931 20+ yo doggos Even PETA would be...
@@julianmarpez3931 I wouldn't trust them to do anything remotely good with the Odyssey these days. They should just review the one with Armand Assante.
no doubt he didnt die because he dug a ditch somewhere)
For some reason I always forget Sean is in Troy
I like the way Roel Konijnendijk explains what happened in reality. He "juggles" three things:
1) the original story from different sources and general knowledge about that time and those events;
2) understanding of why filmmakers made some changes;
3) keeping in mind how his explanations sound for non-historian viewers.
4) strategically sensible use of ditches.
.
.
.
(I'm so sorry, couldn't stop myself.)
The movie needs to simplify a lot of stuff.
This channel should 100 percent do the deep dive for kingdom of heaven directors cut.
I agree, although the actual history of the crusades is a bit taboo so Im not surprised
A very well read and wise former co-worker of mine once said Kingdom of Heaven was impressively accurate.
The movie trys to be fair (ish) to all sides so it would be an interesting discussion. I expect like any of these kind of movies it touches of things being correct, just out of order by time/location or who does it.
@@JackSmith-ns1uq How is it taboo?
@@JackSmith-ns1uqHow is history considered Taboo?? Wars over religion has always existed and will always exist. Nothing taboo about the subject matter of the Crusades.
Last time I was this early, they hadn't even started digging the ditches yet.
👍👍👍🤣🤣👵🇦🇺
I saw this video and was like "Oh, new Ditch guy video!" lol and knew the comments would be full of ditch comments hahaha!
😂😂😂😂
so vikings = Way To Late when 1100-1200 BC?
@@dallesamllhals9161 Vikings were more like 1000-800 BC, no? Also, don't you mean early lol
THE MAN, THE MYTH, THE LEGEND, ROEL "THE DITCH" KONIJNENDIJK
The Dutch ditch 😂😂
@@skyhigh1154
The Digging Dutchman?
@@Kremit_the_Forg 😜
You've heard of the Terminator. Now meet....the Excavator
He's not a very good historian.
Peter O'Toole's performance in Achilles' tent is beyond description. Some of the finest acting I've ever seen. He delivers every syllable with such gravitas, sorrow and respect in equal measure.
I agree completely. There was just something so unique about his performances.
Absolutely, he made me forget I was watching a movie and lost in the moment. THAT is masterful acting!
What makes that scene so interesting, is that Peter hated this movie. He didn't enjoy any of it, yet still delivered a great performance.
My dad who is not much into movies was moved to tears by his acting in that scene. Peter O'Toole was truly one of the greats.
When 'No Toole', as the Spitting Image generation will always remember him, gets down on one knee and continues pleading with Achilles to return Hector's body, it goes on cringe-makingly long. Typical Hollywood LCD overdoing things. That's probably why Our Pete hated it.
"The are no pacts between lions and men." is a line that goes so hard. I didn't know it was taken directly from the Iliad itself, but it sure does sound like something an ancient greek action hero would say.
I think actually comes from aesops fables specifically the lionshare
Er, he says it was taken directly from The Illiad. which is about a century before Aesop's Fables, so if anything Aesop was quoting Homer (which would bee entirely plausible since Roel even says the Homeric poems were basically _the_ Greek literature that everyone would immediately know & recognize)
Yes, its pretty much straight from the Iliad. and spoken by Acillies to Hector. He adds, "wolves and lambs can never be of one mind"
First time I've actually watched a full breakdown without skipping anything. Roel is a joy to listen to.
Considering this guy is obviously a major scholar of homeric literature, and loves the iliad.
He's very fair and not set in his ways about the adaptation. It's refreshing.
I think he understands that the basic goal the movie has is to restructure the plot into a more contemporary political narrative, and he doesn't mock it for that even as he points out how it twists or ignores the source material to suit that goal.
@@Igor_the_Madif the movie didn't twist the source material, Apollo would have quite a bigger role in it 🤷
Indeed, he acknowledges that they have modified the story to include themes about nation building etc., but he accepts that great literature gets re interpreted by successive generations to suit their social norms
Imagine modern audiences being shown a scene where, instead of fighting, Hector runs around the outskirts of Troy not once, not twice; but three times LMFAO The only people who criticize Troy for its “inaccuracy” are people who haven’t read the Iliad. 😂
Oh yeah he's a scholar of Ancient warfare and quite good at it :) and we were in the same year at university. Mad respect to his accomplishments!
Should have dug a ditch around Achilles' heel
This comment needs more likes lol
Hector also needed to dig a ditch around himself when he fought Achilles
Or he could have just worn armor on his heels. Just an idea
What is the ditch joke can someone please explain
@@hellbound64 Joel made his famous first appearance on one of those videos of "expert rates scenes on movies" and he, being the realistic historical warfare expert that he is, commented on the surprising lack of ditches in popular media,
"where's the ditch? You gotta have a ditch"
"to defend winterfell from the army of the dead first you need to dig ditches....LOTS AND LOTS OF DITCHES"
Love how they blacked out all the "scary stuff" and then at 58:04 have a full on screen beheading
editor got tired 😂😂
😂😂😂😂
They also didn't black out Patroclus neck getting color
and all the stabby stabs, penetration is the devils work :P
@@ryanreviews8566 lol
When it came out, I was SO relieved it wasn't swords ALL the time, that spears got as much as they did. The scene in the tent was damn close to perfect. I loved the way Hector fought workmanlike, Achilles was an inspired dancer - that was not realistic - but giving an idea of inspiration, of being a bit diviine, I "got" what they were doing. The start - when the guy got the spear thrown through the head, and you saw the graphic hole. That was PERFECT, a representation of all the graphic descriptions of how a weapon cut through that body part, then that, then the night descended on his eyes.
Whoever put the Kill Bill music when Odysseus sees the horse at 52:10 deserves a raise 😂
Notice the distinct lack of ditches around Troy. That's the main reason why it fell.
Horses struggle to jump or roll over ditches. They'd have certainly helped.
Yep. They held out for 10 years without ditches so that must be why they fell.
It had nothing to do with the Trojans opening/destroying the gate to bring in that horse full of soldiers.
If I'm not mistaken Troy used to have a mega ditch around her wall, called a moat!
This dude is the david goggins of ditches
@@Jaded_Jester have you ever tried to pull a huge wooden horse over a ditch? ;)
No this is about Roel emphasizing very much the importance of ditches in other videos.
Dr. Konijnendijk is one of You Tube's greatest treasures. Love seeing him in videos. Thanks.
Dr. Kingdick? lol
i really dig this guy
Achilles cross-dressing to avoid going to war has to be one of the most hilarious plot points ever. When I was studying Ancient Greek in high school, and we reached this bit of the Iliad, we were laughing for quite a while. We were lucky enough to have a teacher who thoroughly enjoyed explaining these moments in the Iliad and the Odyssey.
I'm amazed that you reached that bit of the Iliad in high school considering that it's not in the Iliad.
@@him050 Meh. It's been...yikes, seventeen years since then. I just remember our teacher telling us that story.
@@Cailus3542 It's definitely a legit story I've heard before, even if its not directly in the Iliad.... from what I can recall of the story he's in hiding and the way they find him is by blowing war horns, and while all the other "ladies" react in horror, he immediately grabs for weapons, right?
@@KS-xk2so It's in the Trojan cycle. It's like all the King Arthur myths which forms an epic cycle. It's not a single novel in the way we have stories today. Ancient tales were spoken way before they were written down and everyone was adding their own bit, which after centuries of retelling expanded into entire mythologies. Homer's epics are a retelling of part of these stories.
Achilles is probably a twink
I like how the Illiad in essence is a story about the dangers of wrath. The wrath of Achilles, Agemennon, Hector. Its rather fascinating that such an old piece of literature still has themes relevant to our current society.
@rishisaaptacha We have now electricity, computers, and firearms but people are the same.
And plenty of violence. More than any horror movie. And descriptions that make you wince.
So cool that we got such an extended cut version of this. Gold! Thanks!
That was an hour? Seriously, that felt like 20 minutes. Well done ditch historian, you're really good at this!
Agreed. Really interesting and great video
he is mediocre at best, he can't even name the Hellenes properly.
He didn't even mention a ditch not once! Not a single time! I'm gutted.
@@Adamantos-Elean Give it a rest. He's great at what he does, don't be a bitch about it.
@@georgezachos7322 Big tough keyboard warrior, why don't you talk like that in person? You can still type after you shit your teeth.
I consider myself a bit of a history buff, but I'm not ashamed to say that I love this movie. There's just something about it.
@@him050 it really does as he says have some really good scenes scattered throughout it
That movie is so epic
@@gbarberis7402 you seen the scenes on TH-cam with the original score before they changed it last minute? They’re so cool!
I'd agree. Incredibly innaccurate, but who cares? They certainly nail the legacy of Achilles warrior ways, and his combat scenes look incredible. I think part of the reason I enjoy it is I find the real story kind of gets cock blocked by the gods all the time.... like sometimes I want them to just shut it and let me enjoy a regular war epic.... given that the movie pretty much removes them, it kinda has that vibe.
I'm also glad they leaned into making Paris a bitch too..... though him actually killing Achilles at the end pisses me off. They should've had Paris trip and fall into a cart full of horse shit and that accidentally bumps a random crossbow that goes off and gets Achilles completely by accident or something. Anything would've been better than what they went with.
Has a horse but no ditch. Come on
Yayyy any episode with Ditchguy is surely a classic 🗿🗿
And throw rocks.
@@le13579 and dig ditches too
Every time I feel like taking a break from ditch digging, roel drops a video and I get right back to work....I currently have 87km dug up
I've seen "Troy" several times but I never noticed the lamas in that one scene until now lol. I feel like that's such a Hollywood producer move.
Producer: "We need more farm animals for this scene!"
Assistant: "Well we have lamas from some local people we could borrow but that wouldn't' be historically accur..."
Producer: "Put em in!" (slams the table)
It’s also inaccurate that the trojans were riding horses, though they were depicted as being horse enthusiasts. Horses were for pulling chariots in the bronze age, not riding.
I had to stop digging ditches to watch this video.
genius
You must be incredibly safe. I bet you sleep soundly every night.
*dig ditches WHILE watching the video 😏
Best comment
Just strap a selfie stick to your spade, watch the video, and keep digging, for Zeus' sake!
The ending with the Troyans fleeing the sacked city is also a nice nod to the _Aeneid._
The better nod to The Aeneid would have been to make Aeneas a whiny so-and-so. Worst hero ever. (Maybe I'm biased because I got utterly sick of translating "pius aeneas" a million times when I was a schoolboy)
@@DaveBath The Latin language is a bitch!
The biggest nod was Paris handing the Sword of Troy to _Aeneas_ himself carrying his old father out of the palace
@@MarvinT0606 Because Paris was supposed to die long before Troy fell. Aneneas was the one who tried to rescue as many Trojians as possible and evacuated them from the fallen city.
It's a shame the good doctor missed mentioning that the dancing girls at the party - they wore very reasonable interpretations of the Minoan/ Mycenean fashions that predominated the proto-Greek culture of the time.
They showed his dog! Odysseus' dog is surprisingly, a relatively important character in his story; he saved his owner when younger, in a boar hunt (leaving Odysseus with a scar on his leg instead of- you know, dead), & recognises him before anyone else, on his return (after essentially 20 years away)- he's pretty much just holding onto life until his master returns, before dying at a grand old age for a dog...
Yeah, that part sucked donkey balls.
No one recognises him, and he meets his bestest goodest friend and then Argos dies.
I'd start the butchery right there.
Argos was the bestest boy in history! He refused to die until he saw his master after more than 20 years.
@@OcarinaSapphr- I get so emotional when I get to that point!
My favorite moment of The Odyssey, when he greets his dog at the gate.
He's an historian, he studies concepts in this video, not archaeology
“You sack of wine” is one of the greatest lines that I still say to this day
Excellent breakdown as always. Thanks. I especially appreciate that you put things in the proper context: there's the source material and there's the fact that this is a modern movie.
I could hear this man talk about history for days! Bring him back as much as you can
I could listen to this guy talk for hours, give him a podcast!
I would love this. He and a lay person could talk about history for 45-60 minutes once a week or so.
I'd listen, but only if the podcast has a clever name about Ditches lol
Id love to take classes he teaches.
@@KS-xk2so 'Ditching Bad History' or 'Digging for the Truth on History' if he wants to go more archaeological.
@@andytopley314 see I was thinking more "Ditch, please!" where he reads history questions submitted by viewers and sassily corrects them lol
Roel Konijnendijk, ancient historian at Oxford, decided to represent his Dutch roots by not showing the Iliad in original Greek or an English translation, but the Dutch Salamander series paperback.
Nog van mn ouders gekregen toen ik nog maar een klein greppelgravertje was
Oh wow. I assumed he was Icelandic for some reason. Another thing that I learnt today.
@@DrRoelKonijnendijk Such as shame this nice comment is hidden... and probably can't be translated properly by Google 😊
@@kristofmaenhout7214 it seems that he referred to himself as a kid as a "little ditch digger", I believe it is 100% accurate.
Ancient? He doesn't look that old.
He always have the best comments delivered to us in the most exciting way.
Makes me wanna sign up for one of his class.
Another fascinating video by Dr Konijnendijk, interesting comparisons to the source material, hugely informative and some really great insights into ancient Greek society as well, can't wait for more.
Thanks for the deep dive. Greek mythology was always my Achilles' horse
🤣
You should be more cautious. People are cunning and may use Trojan heels to betray you!
aka Sean Bean manages to survive a full movie without dying.
Must've actually dug a ditch for once to protect himself.
@@KS-xk2so he is the one who knew the secret of staying alive)
Thank the gods, the old and the new!
@@KS-xk2so And thrown some rocks... 😉
He probably died inside after reading the script but had bills to pay
Very clever intro of Odysseus/Ulysses: patting his faithful dog, the only one - never mind the number of years passed - who will recognize him when he returns in the sequel, The Odyssey.
That was some old dog as siege took 10 years, and another 10 for Odyseus' trip back
@@arek314Poor dog died in that very moment though. It stayed alive to see its master again.
That scene of Priam asking for Hector’s body always makes me cry 😭 Peter O’Toole’s acting is unmatched 👌🏼
These deep dive videos aree the peak of format, keep them coming please!
Love how the video editor cut out Menelaus getting stabbed by Hector but left in Patroclus’ throat being cut which is far worse 😂
I liked Terry Prachett's version of Helen. Elenor of Tsort. By the time Rincewind and crew show up to "rescue" her, the war has been going on ten years. Eric was expecting to see the face that launched a thousand ships. So he is disappointed to find her a rather plump mother of seven children, with bit of a squint and the beginnings of a mustache.
It makes me inexplicably happy to see this brilliant dude get excited about some of the scenes that were done well.
I got an ad for Trojan condoms, the algorithm is making a joke.
I wish they would've done an odysseus movie, Sean Bean did so great in that role..and he didn't die in a movie!
I think an Odysseus movie has just been finished, featuring Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche.
@@HanaVys I'm not sure I know those names, not ringing any bells. I just want Sean Bean to do it because I thought he did well in that role and I love his voice, his opening narration to Troy is great
Odysseus is being played by Lord Voldemort if that rings any bells lol
@@aintfalco7968 ohhhh, him. I think I know him
I love the movie but I love listening to Roel Konijnendijk more. I learn so much every time I hear Roel.
The biggest lesson Troy and the source material itself teaches is that, while Achilles might seem the "cooler" dude at first glance, you should always strive to be more like Hector
"No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus!
By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man -
some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive -
than rule down here over all the breathless dead." : Achilles, the Odyssey.
All heroes have good and bad moments, they are human, flawed, chasing honor, glory and happiness, all have some good in them.
Except Agamemnon, fuck that guy
Do you even read the source material Iliad? In Iliad Achilles was the true hero, but Hector wasn't.
@@AndrewNiccolTrue, Achilles has the quintessential hero arc. But Hector is no villain, he is the tragic hero, fighting out of duty, to preserve what he loves, his city, his wife, his children. He has to fight, it was not his choice. And he only faces Achilles in a duel because he gets tricked by the gods, because they have destined him to die. He might not be the hero of the story, but you would rather like to have someone like him as your neighbor than Achilles
Well he did doom his people by enabling his horny brother. I guess that's a leader to be praised ...
Thanks to Roel, I can’t stop checking every fortificación in any game, film, show and even real life without looking for the ditch.
Oh Roel. I could listen to him for hours. Really. More please.
Professor Konijnendijk is really awesome. It's super engaging to listen to him because you can just feel his immense passion for these topics. I hope we get to see him in more videos like this! :)
Ditch Daddy back at it again. I just can't get enough of this stuff.
Priam: you had taken everything from me my Eldest Son air to my Throne Defender of my Kingdom 😢
Achilles: What about Paris?
Priam: I sed you had taken everything from me Achilles 😢
There's a bit that the doctor doesn't mention.
King Priam tells Achilles to stop being a dick.
Heroes deserve to be sent off properly. Hector did his duty and died for his country. Achilles is being difficult by insulting his memory and his body over his internal rage.
That is Hubris. Gods don't like that.
Besides, Hector is in the afterlife but soon, Achilles will be also.
The Ditch Lord returneth
We are not worthy! We are not worthy!
Praise be the ditch!
May there be ditches!
Aaaahhh this guy!!! ❤❤ I've watched other videos of him talking about history and movies, although I think it was on another youtube channel. So, glad to know he's participating here too, always a pleasure to hear his comments! ✨I'm saving this video to watch it later, with this man one should take time to listen properly😌
Roel Konijnendijk needs his own Channel, the world needs more Konijnendijk!
Never have I clicked so fast on a Ditch Lord video
Those Llamas are not Llamas. They are late bronze age Anatolian ditch camels used by the Trojans to dig ditches.
Ah well in that case fair enough
Awesome !😅
they never used them though! There were no ditches to be seen!
(burp) I've been called worse.....
😂 🐪
@TeutonicEmperor1198 they were caught off guard completely by surprise. It was the Pearl Harbour of it's day.
13:57 I just want to point out that in addition to the other aspects of their relationship, making Patroclus Achilles' YOUNGER cousin that Achilles has to look after is exactly the opposite of what the Iliad tells us. There's literally a scene where we're told that before they went off to war, Patroclus' father reminded him that HE needed to look out for Achilles and give him good advice because HE was the older of the two.
They were lovers
@@hermanoguimaraes6343 They also both slept apart and liked having sex with (enslaved) women, according to the Iliad.
The actor who plays Eudoros should've played Patroclus, if they wanted to be more accurate to the poem.
@@hermanoguimaraes6343 they were not, there is no mention of any of that in the original story. That garbage was added by British scholars in the 70s
@@psarri72 Yes they were and there are a BUNCH of evidences for that. As the same way Alexander and Hephaestion were definitely lovers.
Your christian homophobics opinions do not matter.
I will always listen to Roel Konijnendijk talk about ancient warfare.
I really like videoes of this guy. He can tell you about the factual mistakes and what is incorrect, without being condescending. He can praise the movie despite it's mistakes (however dubious it might be), being able to see the value as an entertainment product despite it not being correct like a documentary.
I wouldn't even say "mistakes", because it's not like the writers somehow didn't notice all the instances of gods playing with the hero's like a six year old with his action hero figures. They just made the reasonable decision to leave the whole supernatural out, and have fights last longer than three seconds.
I very much approve that, just as I liked including the Homeric mind-set of heros, and the importance of gifts, funerals, decorum and so on. It is so, so, _so_ rare for a movie to not just implant 20th / 22st century mind sets & values into historical characters, so I thoroughly enjoy it when it happens.
Those comments are ditching hilarious !!
As far as the movie, it's one of my guilty pleasures : it's definitely not an accurate movie, or really even a "good" one. But there's so many great actors in it that i can't help but sort of enjoy it ...
The best movie ive ever seen
Sean Bean as Odysseus was great. I wish we got an Odyssey sequel with him.
I like how he points out that, historically, duels didn't really settle conflicts between major powers, unlike what is often portrayed in movies. That makes a lot of sense.
"Priam faints like a Victorian" 🤣🤣🤣
well Peter O Tool was probably the most Victorian modern man
I love this guy. Wish I had a teacher like him in my history class
I really enjoyed this. I was passingly familiar with the themes and main characters of The Iliad and the Odyssey, but have never read them, except for the odd passage or two in high school.
I've been a casual fan of Greek mythology since childhood. I listened to Stephen Frye's book, Troy, several times, and Mythos and Heroes even more. After watching this, I note he stuck closely to the source material with his own delightful storytelling.
I was very entertained by your video and loved hearing you tie together - for me - history, The Iliad (and to a lesser extent, The Odyssey), and my beloved Mythos trilogy. Subscribed!
Interesting that Illiad depicts duels as short because that's exactly what they would be in real life, most duels last a few seconds.
Amazing video. I might have just added, at the end, the fact that they represented Paris and the rest fleeing was actually a call back to another ancient text, the Aeneid, where a group of Trojans escape from the burning city, and then end up founding Rome. It would have been a nice add on, also considering that other sources were in some way added to the Iliad for completion of the saga of Troy
That detail of coins didn't exist yet is priceless😂😂😂
I saw what you did there 🤔😏
Funnily enough, some of the earliest coins ever found are from Lydia--an ancient kingdom that was close to the historical Troy.
The coins were from around 600-650 BC, though, whereas the Trojan War (if it even happened) is supposed to have occurred centuries before that, in the 12th-13th centuries BC.
@@Unknown-jt1jo You know what? I have learned about the Homeric epics since the days of my early childhood (since here in Greece the Epics are a big deal) and since my 14 years of age I knew that coins were a 7th century Anatolian invention and yet I never combined those 2 pieces of information together and discredit Homer for anachronism!
Another at least one hour story re-revealed to me by Roel, and - again - well spent time! It takes few momnts to realize the mastery of language of historian... Roel, how you tell us the differences to originals is one thing, but the craftmanship of your storytelling is amazing!
Am I the only person that actually liked the Movie? It’s amazing that you know all this information, I could listen to you talk about the Ancient world all day! Great teacher
No, there are many of us, but we live in hiding
It's a fun movie, a lot of people like it. I enjoy it as well mostly due to the fantastic performances from the cast. But from a historical accuracy standpoint it's pretty much on Braveheart level.
@@xKinjax It’s not as bad as Napoleon
@@samright4661 true, it's hard to get to that level of bad. But somehow Ridley Scott seems to be able to consistently achieve it. Kingdom of Heaven was just as horrible from a historical standpoint. Painting Europe as a dark age cesspit when it was literally going through a wealthy renaissance period due to the success of the previous crusade, making Balian some young country bumpkin that's somehow fantastic at everything when in reality he was already a middle-aged man by that point who, thanks to his noble birth had been trained since childhood in all the things he's good at in the movie. The list just goes on and on with the worst being the character assassinations of Sybilla and Guy de Lusignan.
@@xKinjax Yep, he painted Knights Templars as bad guys. They was very honorable people he propped up Muslims very unfairly
Amazing episode... I can't have enough of this man. Could you do a deep dive on the movie "Kingdom of Heaven"
Ohhhh, seconded. Although that's probably not Konijnendijk area of expertise; I think he's for Antiquity warfare.
Of course, I would love to be wrong about that if it means getting a Kingdom of Heaven Deep Dive.
WER'E DIGGING OUR WAY OUT OF TROY WITH THIS ONE BOYS!
GRAB YER SHOVELS LADS!!!
I'm already half way under the walls of Troy! 😤
I'll bring the dynamite 🧨
I enjoyed Dr Konijnendijk's description of the fighting of duels, with regard to the man-to-man fight between Achilles and Hector in the film, and how in all the original material these were over in two or three strokes, rather than being long, drawn-out battles. And, in fact, if you watch fencing or swordfight re-creations you'll see that's the case: the action is so swift you can only barely follow it, and the point is scored in seconds. (Admittedly, the greatest swordfight on film, in Richard Lester's The Three Musketeers, goes on quite a bit, but, again, that's a cinematic treatment.) The level of concentration and skill required to actually engage in one of these types of fights is utterly beyond me.
Of course, if they'd had a ditch, maybe it really would have gone on that long.
Wow, what a great 2-minute video! I especially enjoyed the 47 mid-roll ads that gave me time to make dinner, write a novel, and solve world peace. The actual content was a nice break between the advertisements. 5/5 would watch ads again!
Please keep the deep dives coming, these are fantastic! Even if the Dr didn’t mention ditches this time. Which the walls of Troy could have really used!
I like that one scene where the Trojan King asks his General if they can win, and the General is like "Our walls have never been breached, we have the finest archers in the world, and.... we... have DITCHES! YES, WE CAN WIN!"
00:27 this historian doesn't even look that ancient
Boibe (Βοίβη) appears once in the catalogue of the ships (2.712). Apparently, it was a city in Thessaly. Eumelus is said to come from there and bring eleven ships with him (2.713). No idea why they decided to include a random city that is only mentioned once and is related to a hero who doesn't even appear in the movie.
Presumably because they had presented Thessaly as a place to be conquered to secure the Greek empire along with Troy, the map maker was being clever by sneaking in a little nugget to support the script. Or cocaine. Never doubt the power of cocaine in Hollywood.
@@kevinmorgan2968 I wouldn't be surprised if in earlier versions of the script the site of the opening battle and names of the involved characters were mentioned in more detail, but later simplified away for the sake of not forcing the audience to remember too many names in a short span of time, as sometimes happens. Inclusion of "Boibe" on the map may be an artefact of that or something
@@joaquindominguezarduengo7298 Thessaly Thessalia in Greek (it's still called the same even now by the way) means Thesis alós and it's a very old name when all the place was a big lake so emense it looked like sea .In Homer the sea is Als -alós !Alati =salt comes from the root!Thanks!
@@kevinmorgan2968 I am sorry but your knowledge of ancient Mediterranean history Greeks were and are Cretans Aioleis Ionians Thessalians Macedonians and they also were almost in every shore around Mediterranean.The evidence of this is that only Hellenes could take part in Olympic games !They spoke the same language and had the same gods !You better study some more !
@@kevinmorgan2968 And by the way there was never a Greek empire in ancient Greece There were city states that frequently fought with one another!When you say empire you mean Roman empire and later the Eastern Roman empire !Look you probably have some dislike for Greek history but there's no good or bad in history and that is exactly! history!
Love this. This is by far one of my favourite historical movies.
Regarding 3:40, I think the Menelaus hosting the Trojans is something referenced in the Iliad, not at home to check chapter reference but I remember it being mentioned to Menelaus in a sort of negative way, that people he hosted would backstab him.
i love these breakdowns especially with Roel!
Troy was written by David Benioff, who seems to be very good when given tangible source material to adapt for the screen
"While Troy kind of forgot about the greek fleet, and Agamemnon's forces, they certainly haven't forgotten about them..."
I saw Roel face I started watching immediately, these guy is great !
He reviewed 300 to and cool trivia is one actor - Vincent Regan played in both movies... there as Artemis and here as Audoros
That guys niche seems to be "Sword and Sandals Movie Epic Warrior's #2 guy" lol very specific niche, but hey he nails it!
He's also the hero of the marines! GARP!
@@KS-xk2so love that comment :D did you used swords and sandals terms knowing about that small epic game ? :P I yes that's even cooler :D
or maybe it was a term that simply comes to your mind
Absolutely loved this... brilliantly done ✌️
"Here lies Hector, the fool who thought he killed achilles!"
Love that line
ah, you misunderstood what they were trying to portray with Achilles' death. He was shot in the heel and multiple times in the chest. He died from his wounds in the chest but he pulled the arrows out, leaving only the one in the heel, so when his body was found, it looked like he died from a shot in the heel, sprouting the legend. I personally think it's a very good way to represent a realistic account of the story that doesn't involve supernatural feats and beings.
Same here! It was very clear that the number of arrors killed him, and of course - as the Master of Ditches himself pointed out - all the mythological stuff like gods and divine intervention was left out, so the whole "bathed in a dragons blood but a leaf fell on his shoulder" or such couldn't be used. But as you said: it was a nice nod to the mythology, and could even be seen as a starting point of the myth.
I need this man to do weekly deep dives 😅
Sometimes he does deep dives into ditches.
Another absolute banger of a video. Now if I ever get rich beyond imagination I want to create a movie version with the gods and absolutely include Roel Konijnendijk as advisor.
This was genuinely fascinating and well done and very entertaining. Bravo!
Fantastic, I’m so glad you exist Roel
I saw this in my list and said out loud "Aaaaw yes, Dr Ditches is back!"
I love the Ditch Lord's commentary. Always informative, detailed, insightful and entertaining and I get to learn a bit more beyond what is on film.
Oh, and praise be the ditch!
I have dug so many f**king ditches waiting for the next of this man's videos.
One of my favorite movies! Enjoyed the historian’s analysis.
Yes!! Ditch guy doing one of my all tim favorite clips..
Troy! The story of when leaders' thirst is too great and everyone else suffers for it.
This was a brilliant explanation , not there 10 scenes things, tanks a lot for this !!
Thoroughly enjoyed this, please keep doing these
DOCTOR ROEL! OMG, OUR VERY OWN AND MOST CHERISHED "DITCH GUY". ❤😊❤ Oh, how long was the time without his knowledge and his adorable way of teaching.
Please, invite him for more!
I don't know how Troy could have been made similar to the book/poem without being a bit goofy, because of the odd nature of the gods being prevalent. One can't help but think of, "Clash of the Titans" if they were to manifest the gods, but not putting the gods in the movie kinda removes the motivation of, well, everyone.
@@langhamp8912 yeah taking the gods out it's basically just another war film. Not necessarily a bad thing but yeah
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Roel's expression in the thumbnail gives me great expectations for this