Thanks for watching everyone! This video was uploaded at the same time as its companion MockRock video, an experiment that may or may not stick around depending on performance. It may work great, or the MockRock video may cannibalize this one, in which case the companion videos may go live a day later. They'll stick around either way though, so let me know what you thought of this one, as well as any ideas you'd like to see on the channel! -Main channel: th-cam.com/users/mockrocktv -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
You said you made this channel cuz it didn't fit the theme of the main one. However due to the fact that being a smash player your ideas for videos are numbered so I'd disagree
One move that may be just shy of making a list like this but IMO deserves to be talked about is Bowsers up smash. Yeah it's frame 16 which means that as far as punishing attacks that hit your shield it isn't great unless it's really unsafe. But as far as a pre-emptive anti air and sharking move it is just fantastic. Armor from frame 11 and just Invincible frame frame 14-27. You can really just throw this on reaction to a jump or landing attempt. If they double jump away you don't get punished and they just burned a resource that's really important for a lot of the cast. Obviously with the armor and invincibility it beats pretty much any aerial or special landing, and even if it trades.... you're Bowser, and it probably still killed them. If they airdodge past it, it also has a landing hitbox which means fast fall neutral airdodges still get hit and gives a little pop up Bowser can then mix them up with. If they directional airdodge past the move, they are at best even, likely still in disadvantage, and potentially even punishable. Bowser gets a fair bit out of this move. You don't see it as much at higher level but that's less the moving being bad and more that pros just respect his up-smash and up b combination and just don't really jump at him aggressively because of that.
"Slow CQC boxer who can also set traps" actually makes a lot of sense for Snake as a character, but I think the reason he's so obnoxious is because they gave him too many projectiles. Just swapping grenades for a different special move would instantly fix him IMO. Maybe it could be a sleep dart with limited ammo, like in PM? Or a command grab? Or a falcon punch? I'm fine with any of those!
I'd rather see Nikita Missile switched for Tranq Dart or something like it, personally. Nikita Missile feels a lot more overall obnoxious even if it sees less use.
@@vogunBurgundy Thing is, Nikita could be just fine with the right nerfs. I don't know how they could adjust grenades to be fun to play against because their fundamental concept is off-putting to me, and a weird choice for Snake as a character. Might as well throw them out and start over with something a little more Metal Gear.
How are grenades more fundamentally off-putting in concept than a manually directed Nikita missile? It's a lot more realistic that he'd carry the former given his background as a special operative and the like, and it factors into his playstyle more in that its very much something that lets him play mind games with enemies, and helps compensate for his lower movement speed in comparison to his more flashy, super-powered competition. It _feels_ "smart", even to be on the receiving end of. When I see Nikita missile, I can't not think it's just a "ah gottem GGs" tool for edge-guarding, and very little else (and, a weapon that heavy-duty being used for precisely sniping other characters, as opposed to heavy-duty machines i.e. Metal Gears?) I dunno, mate. I'm trying to see it but I really don't, personally.
@@vogunBurgundy Fam how much Metal Gear have you played? The last time I played through the entire saga I think I threw frag grenades one time. Meanwhile Nikita is REQUIRED to beat two of the games and it has great utility for smart players. Nikita is 100 times more iconic to Snake and it can't be spammed for free neutral wins in Smash, so I say it's the clear winner. Its offstage utility should be nerfed of course but even now it requires clever mixups to snag most characters consistently. Meanwhile everything clever about grenades could be summed up as "low effort C4," and special moves with overlapping utility are iffy (see: Sonic). Grenades are also one of the most frustrating moves to fight against in the game because they're so braindead spammable. Not worth keeping IMO, or at least reduce it to one grenade at a time 🙃
@@epicsause21 Semantics, but the freezing move is his down smash, not Whirling Fortress. Until Ultimate, Bowser's down smash was a spin just like grounded Whirling Fortress, only stationary instead of letting you slide around. Giga Bowser retains the old versions of all of Bowser's moves (except his Melee side b which was terrible).
Weird fact: CPU pit and dark pit actually use this as an out of shield option. I was training for a fight against a pit main and the lvl 9 CPU kept doing it.
Your tripping if you think bell is better then Banana. Bell is still cracked, but Banana does everything it does but better, sending people into tech situations is way better then the stun Bell gives them imo
A little surprised at the lack of Yoshi nair tbh. Near instant oos on a character who literally can't be shield poked which can both combo and kill depending on the opponent's percent. Low endlag too and it putting you in the air is good for escaping disadvantage thanks to Yoshi's double jump super armor.
I understand the reasoning behind adding Gunner's cannon jump kick, because as an OOS option it's absolutely insane but it's almost completely un-useable in Gunner's kit. It's far and away Gunner's worst recovery tool and I doubt you'll see any Gunner trying to actually use this move instead of Lunar Launch or Arm rocket, the payoff just isn't enough.
Surprised he didnt mention the spike hitbox, but yeah. I play gunner and I never use this, the recovery from lunar launch is just too needed to sacrifice for a good out of shield option
Dont you dare lump all of us together like that. CJK is useful af against rushdown characters and those wants to disrespect off stage. Just dont go off stage in the first place lmao
@@MrBillathong “Just don’t go off stage in the first place.” “Just don’t get launched.” “Just don’t get hit.” I mean, if you feel the tradeoff is worth it, then more power too you.
@@MrBillathong "don't go offstage" really amounts to "don't get hit" and that isn't really an option as a slow, heavy zoner I acknowledge that CJK is a necessity for dealing with rushdowns(fox especially) but I value recovery too much to use it. It hurts your longevity far too much whereas RAL makes gunner much hard to kill than people expect
Shulk's Up Special out of shield has always been interesting to me. At frame 10 it doesn't sound particularly good, but the fact that it's so big means it catches pretty much every rising aerial in the entire game and the vast majority of the cast can't outspace it.
It's a good move (better than Climhazzard I'd say), but not top 10. Frame 10 is quick FOR SHULK but semi-slow overall. The hitbox is massive, and it has fairly good kill power, but Shulk's surprisingly horrific aerial drift makes Air Slash a huge commitment, in case it whiffs. It also isn't safe on hit against many characters at zero, and isn't safe on hit in Buster Art until semi-high percents. Still a very good OoS option, make no mistake. It means Shulk can context huge 'slices' of space at any given moment.
Jonathan Gill one of the big strengths of airslash is it makes the vast majority of grounded options simply unsafe. Not many grounded moves are -9 or better on shield, and even fewer have more range than airslash.
There are so many characters that have a great up B out of shield that it makes sense they’re not all on the list. Surprised Yoshi Nair wasn’t on here though, that move is insanely good and like all they spam
It's weird to say, but little mac up b being intangible frame 1-3 and hitting on frame 3 makes it technically the "safest" oos option at point blank but yeah, g&w is better. Actually, g&w has probably the best up b in the game overall, but i think you mentioned it in your best moves in the game video
The entire time I was waiting for you to mention Climhazzard and yes you're right us Cloud mains do love to use it 24/7. Let's just hope that Aerial Sweep is just as good if not better as an OOS option because you better believe I'm solo-maining Sora.
I'm kinda surprised that Cloud Up B didn't show up in this list. It's got very good range, comes out on frame 7 and beats alot of characters out. One more Cloud move is his Up tilt. Comes out on frame 6, has amazing coverage above him which makes double jumping over cloud a risky option.
To be fair with Mii Gunner, the recovery is abysmal, and if you want a better one, you sacrifice basically all of that out of shield prowess. So in this case it's more or less choosing whether you struggle out of shield, or struggle recovering.
As a gunner main I can 100% confirm Gunner's worst quality is having to choose between an OoS and a recovery. Personally I only use CJK when fighting rushdowns(the spacies and ZSS in particular)
Finally, someone talked about mii gunner’s cannon jump. I literally played mii gunner as a character to do damage from far away and when they get close: up b
Chrom's a combo fiend, everything he does deals a million damage. If you took Chrom's up B and gave it to Sheik, it would be an amazing OOS for her because it would be by far her highest damage option at any point. But for Chrom himself... I mean you can just use any aerial OOS to start a combo that'll deal 25% or more so its not that relevant.
Honestly I think Luigi down b is good OOS. It’s invincible, fast, has a wind box, and just like bowser up b you can move, but Luigi can move faster, not to mention this can also catch spot dodges. Just my opinion. (As a Luigi main…)
Holy you just made me imagine Falco using GnW up b as a combo starter. "I just touched his shield one time and now its not letting me skip the cutscene!"
@@brain_tonic Literally any character other than like the slowest ones in the game which don't have great range. So basically ganon incin doc little mac. But in general this shit bs.
Suprised i didnt see ness's neutral air at least in the honorable mentions at low percents it sets up for legendary tech chase combos and at high percents it kills or sets up for an easy ledgetrap or edgeguard and its quite fast and if you drift its can hit a decent area around you
Meta Knights Down Air is frame 4 making it a 7-frame OOS option. At low percents if you hit someone offstage with it you can carry them to the blastzone with a bridge. At mid percents it puts them in a tech situation and at high percentages it puts the opponent in a position where its easy to gimp most of the cast
I'm surprised you didn't mention Mii Brawler's soaring axe kick or thrust uppercut. Both are amazing oos with SAK having longer range than cloud up b and the ability to kill at 0 at ledge, and thrupper being frame 3, tied for fastest in the game and it actually kills, unlike game and watch. Still glad you mentioned Mii Gunner up b though, no one talks about how nutty that move is.
Now, SAK can kill by itself but it only kills near the ledge and this about OOSs. Thrupper is fast, but it's range is terrible, while Fire is huge, doesn't put you into freefall and is just more versatile in general. People dont about it because it is a crappy recovery, but like i said as a OoS it is stupid good
I'm sure sora would take link's spot in here considering his up b is essentially the same in terms of kill power but with the safety of witch twist due to side special
Sora also doesn't have a grounded up-b so you're pretty much dead if you miss. Of course he does have the whole safety with the side special so you can get out of some situations
I am genuinely surprised as a Pac player to not see nair or dair oos on this list. Nair is incredibly fast and I can drift back a sizeable distance with it, and our dair can catch people who low profile on our shield, one of the reason we actually slightly beat the likes of Pikachu in the matchup. There's also recaught Galaxian or Bell oos because if you shield with either of those in hand you kinda just win neutral.
Isn't Dair just like a slightly-worse version of Snake's? Mockrock was clear he doesn't want to have this list be too repetitive, so I don't think he'd include both characters' Dairs.
@@jonathanlgill true but Pac's is much bigger and can drag people off the stage if they're anywhere near ledge and kill them like that since it has amazing base kb. Plus he can even retreat with it and hit it more consistently, making it better for dealing with cross ups.
I think Chrom's is absurd, frame 10, does over 20 damage, kills, huge hitbox, armor on frames 10-30. It's crazy. Easily surpasses Link and Doc imo. I would also swap doc up-b for luigi up-b, even though luigi's is significantly slower, the fact that it kills at 50 is just too good not to pass up tbh. I think everything else is pretty valid though. Steve fair/bair oos is also another rlly good argument.
Darkest lariat is another really good out of shield option. Frame 5, invincibility, and it does incredible shield damage, especially if the first hitbox hits shield.
Great list! Personally I’d have placed captain falcon’s up B. Not super quick, but not slow either. If it’s whiffed which Is relatively rare, you have good mobility to evade. It’s a command grab + Great at getting Falcon out of disadvantage and deters pressure on shield. Also can be used on either side of falcon and kills pretty early! Like I say, the list and reasons for placements are all very solid. Great video!
I think it's incredibly odd that the vast majority of the best Out of Shield Options are on characters who absolutely should not have that kind of option.
His up b is fast and kills and has super armour, along with doing work for charizard when he generally has a really hard time when he's on the back foot. Up smash is slower but also kills in the same way.
a move i actually think would be a solid contender would be ganondorfs nair out of shield, it's a very good shield poker, it's frame 7, it's got kill power, and it's actually somewhat safe on shield, as well as being a multi hit....
I mean doesnt really combo, a lil inconsistent, puts you in freefall really high up off the ground, endlag… not an amazing move oos. Link has the better killer imo.
@@HippityhoppityGnW You don't have to follow up by going high with her upB. You can also teleport to the sides if you're unsure or don't want to risk it. it's still a good get-off-me tool.
Even these "lower effort" videos are still significantly high quality than most content creators in the scene. Well done as always, comment for the algorithm.
One I haven't seen people talk about is ROB up-smash. While it comes out on frame 10 (which might be on the slow side) it's still powerful. Most importantly, it can hit on both sides, so you can't cross-up the shield.
honestly a little surprised to see diddy's up smash left out, it's frame 5 and has solid range all around it for what it is, plus it's not too bad at killing for what diddy is used to
Charizard up smash oos is quite good, frame 6 and decently strong. Also pika back air is pretty good, can lead to death at times kind of like Mario’s up air (but to a lesser extent), or at the very least a decent combo.
Clouds climhazzard .Don't know if it's top ten but it's close. Has pretty good range and can make some safe on shield moves not safe on shield. Also, think its frame 7
I walked into this thinking "Will he please give Mii Gunner the recognition for her 2nd USpecial?". This absolutely godly out of shield option is significantly more powerful of one than any out of shield option on a zoner has any right to be. I'd argue it's more of a problematic move than Snake's DAir to be perfectly honest.
As a Bayonetta main it made me unreasonably happy to see Witch Twist mentioned. Sure she's not as good as she once was, but I've always considered it an incredibly strong OOS option because it can lead into 50+% combos and - if people DI badly - potentially death.
No, not cannon jump kick. It has very poor range out of sheild. It's frame 6 sure, but if you miss, you will get fully charged smash attacked. Even if you hit it, you can still get punished. It's like rest out of shield. If people just space around it, they will be fine. Plus, you would never want to used it over the other up B's. On top of that, arm rocket is probably better even without a hit box. It's frame 3 with only 14 frames of landing lag, so if you can retreat to a platform or mix it up with a grab or up smash to make them want to get away or sheild after they hit your sheild, it's very hard to punish and gets gunner away.
It’s actually really big. And most up bs OOS are punishable on whiff. If you’re being punished for using up b OOS as gunner, that means YOU as a player made a mistake. Doesn’t mean the move is worse.
@@Metalc yeah, it's big if the opponent holds into your sheild. Grab and up smash are both bigger, but even then, I don't recommend using them for OOS. Like look at link up B for example: way bigger, hits on both sides, and is only one frame slower. And for the record, I think most Up Bs out of sheild are trash due to low range, even if thier fast.
I’m a ness player and I agree that it’s great. But it is still frame 8 which is a lot slower than a lot of other options. Still great, just not as good as some others.
Can’t believe that Zelda’s up B out of shield isn’t a top 10, it can kill earlier than any other. It isn’t the fastest but it’s also a good set off me tool.
Pikachu's bair is a fantastic OoS move _if_ your opponent is behind you, which applies less than half the time. Hard to justify it on this list given that context.
Surprised to not see pac man (or yoshi) And personally, I think Bowser's short hop side b out of shield needs to be mentioned for whirling fortress oos to be considered, because Bowser flip means even crossing up his sheild with a safe option isn't safe, because he can just b reverse a command grab and punish almost any option after hitting a shield, although spot dodge does turn it to a 50/50 (upb beats spot dodge but loses to shield, shield beats up b but loses to side b)
Mii Brawler's Soaring Axe Kick. Frame 10, INCREDIBLY disjointed, high base knockback, can set up into some combos, and even some edgeguarding scenarios near the ledge, and CAN EVEN KILL AT 0% NEAR THE LEDGE. Absolutely insane.
@@eaa1338 Yeah, I found that out. I think it's just that Ryu's shoryuken is more of a direct hit, it just feels faster and is definitely more reliable as a killing move
I heard alpharqd talk about that mii gunner kick and that 1 move made it my day 1 main when I got the game, its a crazy under talked about move, if it went further it would be busted
@@benjason_94 ok no need to get so heated. I was just asking. The simple answer is that adding characters that aren’t actually in the video is a common tactic for thumbnails and a really functional one at that.
Toonlinks spin attack is better because it has decent kill power, multiple hits, but ALWAYS sends in the direction he is facing even those behind toonlinks get launched forward
I would just like to admit i literally popped off when you talked about cannon jump. I run that move on gunner specifically for the quick kill and oos option.
Surprised Shulk's Air Slash wasn't even mentioned in the honourable mentions. Super solid kill move with Smash and deals nice damage with Buster. It also helps deal with one of Shulk's biggest weaknesses (overwhelming pressure)
It's great, but probably not Top 10. Shulk's awful air acceleration makes it a very high commitment out of shield option (if it whiffs), and it has some other oddities to it like being unsafe-on-hit at low/mid percents in Buster Art and not reliably connecting in Jump Art. It's got deceptively large horizontal range, though, so it's definitely a great move.
5:40 alpharad viewers will remember when he went on a tyrade about how good that move is, spending pretty much a whole friendlies match sitting in shield waiting to throw it out. As someone who later tried that, it is in fact insane. (I believe this happened in one of his sans sin smash videos)
Thanks for watching everyone! This video was uploaded at the same time as its companion MockRock video, an experiment that may or may not stick around depending on performance. It may work great, or the MockRock video may cannibalize this one, in which case the companion videos may go live a day later. They'll stick around either way though, so let me know what you thought of this one, as well as any ideas you'd like to see on the channel!
-Main channel: th-cam.com/users/mockrocktv
-Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock
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I'm glad you clarified that, for some reason I got notified of this video but not of the main channel one
You said you made this channel cuz it didn't fit the theme of the main one. However due to the fact that being a smash player your ideas for videos are numbered so I'd disagree
One move that may be just shy of making a list like this but IMO deserves to be talked about is Bowsers up smash.
Yeah it's frame 16 which means that as far as punishing attacks that hit your shield it isn't great unless it's really unsafe.
But as far as a pre-emptive anti air and sharking move it is just fantastic.
Armor from frame 11 and just Invincible frame frame 14-27. You can really just throw this on reaction to a jump or landing attempt.
If they double jump away you don't get punished and they just burned a resource that's really important for a lot of the cast.
Obviously with the armor and invincibility it beats pretty much any aerial or special landing, and even if it trades.... you're Bowser, and it probably still killed them.
If they airdodge past it, it also has a landing hitbox which means fast fall neutral airdodges still get hit and gives a little pop up Bowser can then mix them up with.
If they directional airdodge past the move, they are at best even, likely still in disadvantage, and potentially even punishable.
Bowser gets a fair bit out of this move. You don't see it as much at higher level but that's less the moving being bad and more that pros just respect his up-smash and up b combination and just don't really jump at him aggressively because of that.
How the Heck is terry not on here?!!! You can charger rising tackle in shield and it’s literally invincible and kills a lot
Sora is clearly on here now after… ya know his up b is great
Haven’t watched it yet, but I’m assuming Game&Watch makes an appearance, perhaps multiple times
Multiple times?
Up-B is pretty much his only OOS option worth bringing up in a video like this
Yes, I was exaggerating. Although I think his Airels are pretty good. But yes I agree with you
@@andypeoples7175 aerials*
Good. Gnw is forever gonna be my goat i love spamming upb oos
@@bryanthatsall5869 oh no cringe
Snake’s archetype is “Konami said make him a top tier”
"Slow CQC boxer who can also set traps" actually makes a lot of sense for Snake as a character, but I think the reason he's so obnoxious is because they gave him too many projectiles. Just swapping grenades for a different special move would instantly fix him IMO.
Maybe it could be a sleep dart with limited ammo, like in PM? Or a command grab? Or a falcon punch? I'm fine with any of those!
I'd rather see Nikita Missile switched for Tranq Dart or something like it, personally. Nikita Missile feels a lot more overall obnoxious even if it sees less use.
@@vogunBurgundy Thing is, Nikita could be just fine with the right nerfs. I don't know how they could adjust grenades to be fun to play against because their fundamental concept is off-putting to me, and a weird choice for Snake as a character. Might as well throw them out and start over with something a little more Metal Gear.
How are grenades more fundamentally off-putting in concept than a manually directed Nikita missile? It's a lot more realistic that he'd carry the former given his background as a special operative and the like, and it factors into his playstyle more in that its very much something that lets him play mind games with enemies, and helps compensate for his lower movement speed in comparison to his more flashy, super-powered competition. It _feels_ "smart", even to be on the receiving end of. When I see Nikita missile, I can't not think it's just a "ah gottem GGs" tool for edge-guarding, and very little else (and, a weapon that heavy-duty being used for precisely sniping other characters, as opposed to heavy-duty machines i.e. Metal Gears?)
I dunno, mate. I'm trying to see it but I really don't, personally.
@@vogunBurgundy Fam how much Metal Gear have you played? The last time I played through the entire saga I think I threw frag grenades one time. Meanwhile Nikita is REQUIRED to beat two of the games and it has great utility for smart players.
Nikita is 100 times more iconic to Snake and it can't be spammed for free neutral wins in Smash, so I say it's the clear winner. Its offstage utility should be nerfed of course but even now it requires clever mixups to snag most characters consistently.
Meanwhile everything clever about grenades could be summed up as "low effort C4," and special moves with overlapping utility are iffy (see: Sonic). Grenades are also one of the most frustrating moves to fight against in the game because they're so braindead spammable. Not worth keeping IMO, or at least reduce it to one grenade at a time 🙃
The best out of shield option is giga bowser whirling fortress bc it's always useful to take up half the stage in hitboxes
He’s also immune to knockback during the move (and every other moment)
Bruh lmao
@@fangornfan and it freezes opponents for some reason
Ah yes my favourite character in ultimate
@@epicsause21 Semantics, but the freezing move is his down smash, not Whirling Fortress.
Until Ultimate, Bowser's down smash was a spin just like grounded Whirling Fortress, only stationary instead of letting you slide around. Giga Bowser retains the old versions of all of Bowser's moves (except his Melee side b which was terrible).
5:34 Alpharad is in the know about this move. When Sans dropped, he made a whole video killing almost exclusively with it
That’s all I could think of when Mock was talking about it
Best up B out of shield is pits by FAR. It is intangible and goes higher than G&W. Cleary an amazing OOS option.
Who cares if it doesn’t have a hitbox. Pits other moves barely have them anyway
@@monkeyjosh339 r/wooosh
@@elliotanderson324 I think you're confused
@@elliotanderson324 r/wooosh
Weird fact: CPU pit and dark pit actually use this as an out of shield option. I was training for a fight against a pit main and the lvl 9 CPU kept doing it.
Pac Man's bell, dude. The best kill confirm in the game and it's fuckin' frame 8 out of shield without parry.
Your tripping if you think bell is better then Banana. Bell is still cracked, but Banana does everything it does but better, sending people into tech situations is way better then the stun Bell gives them imo
Nah boah Ridley's Plazma breath is the best. Frame 32 outta shield you can punish pretty anything with that
@@duke0salt717 reverse warlock punch oos is better imo
@@AshenDust_ y’all sleepin’ on Roy’s fully charged neutral b
Yooo it's Fawfuls Minion! Love your videos dude! Been watching since 2012
A little surprised at the lack of Yoshi nair tbh. Near instant oos on a character who literally can't be shield poked which can both combo and kill depending on the opponent's percent. Low endlag too and it putting you in the air is good for escaping disadvantage thanks to Yoshi's double jump super armor.
Yeah I'd have prolly put yoshi nair where he put mario up air
Can we also talk about the fact that it can potentially give you tech chases too?
Was not expecting witch twist. Most people tend to just forget it when talking about out of shield options.
Yeah, it's dumb. Hit shield? Now you get stuck in this 8 hour long conbo.
I understand the reasoning behind adding Gunner's cannon jump kick, because as an OOS option it's absolutely insane but it's almost completely un-useable in Gunner's kit. It's far and away Gunner's worst recovery tool and I doubt you'll see any Gunner trying to actually use this move instead of Lunar Launch or Arm rocket, the payoff just isn't enough.
Surprised he didnt mention the spike hitbox, but yeah. I play gunner and I never use this, the recovery from lunar launch is just too needed to sacrifice for a good out of shield option
Dont you dare lump all of us together like that. CJK is useful af against rushdown characters and those wants to disrespect off stage. Just dont go off stage in the first place lmao
@@MrBillathong “Just don’t go off stage in the first place.”
“Just don’t get launched.”
“Just don’t get hit.”
I mean, if you feel the tradeoff is worth it, then more power too you.
It's so good and so bad it's weird
@@MrBillathong "don't go offstage" really amounts to "don't get hit" and that isn't really an option as a slow, heavy zoner
I acknowledge that CJK is a necessity for dealing with rushdowns(fox especially) but I value recovery too much to use it. It hurts your longevity far too much whereas RAL makes gunner much hard to kill than people expect
Shulk's Up Special out of shield has always been interesting to me. At frame 10 it doesn't sound particularly good, but the fact that it's so big means it catches pretty much every rising aerial in the entire game and the vast majority of the cast can't outspace it.
Plus it’s a pretty good kill move.
@@gulfgiggleanimations4472 smash or buster art
It's a good move (better than Climhazzard I'd say), but not top 10. Frame 10 is quick FOR SHULK but semi-slow overall. The hitbox is massive, and it has fairly good kill power, but Shulk's surprisingly horrific aerial drift makes Air Slash a huge commitment, in case it whiffs. It also isn't safe on hit against many characters at zero, and isn't safe on hit in Buster Art until semi-high percents.
Still a very good OoS option, make no mistake. It means Shulk can context huge 'slices' of space at any given moment.
It's not particularly fast but it's so big it covers its own weakness? I like that.
Jonathan Gill one of the big strengths of airslash is it makes the vast majority of grounded options simply unsafe. Not many grounded moves are -9 or better on shield, and even fewer have more range than airslash.
There are so many characters that have a great up B out of shield that it makes sense they’re not all on the list. Surprised Yoshi Nair wasn’t on here though, that move is insanely good and like all they spam
i was expecting charzard up smash to be at least mentioned
You're right that's such a good catch!
@@brain_tonic it whiffs short characters though
It's weird to say, but little mac up b being intangible frame 1-3 and hitting on frame 3 makes it technically the "safest" oos option at point blank but yeah, g&w is better. Actually, g&w has probably the best up b in the game overall, but i think you mentioned it in your best moves in the game video
Nah Bowser and G&W have better up B oos
Here's an idea... Rate the stall n falls >8)!
It's on the list!
@@MockRockTalk 80... 8D!!
The entire time I was waiting for you to mention Climhazzard and yes you're right us Cloud mains do love to use it 24/7.
Let's just hope that Aerial Sweep is just as good if not better as an OOS option because you better believe I'm solo-maining Sora.
I'm kinda surprised that Cloud Up B didn't show up in this list. It's got very good range, comes out on frame 7 and beats alot of characters out. One more Cloud move is his Up tilt. Comes out on frame 6, has amazing coverage above him which makes double jumping over cloud a risky option.
To be fair with Mii Gunner, the recovery is abysmal, and if you want a better one, you sacrifice basically all of that out of shield prowess. So in this case it's more or less choosing whether you struggle out of shield, or struggle recovering.
As a gunner main I can 100% confirm
Gunner's worst quality is having to choose between an OoS and a recovery. Personally I only use CJK when fighting rushdowns(the spacies and ZSS in particular)
Also, pretty short OoS range. Not worth it ever tbh, up smash and nair can usually get the job done
Finally, someone talked about mii gunner’s cannon jump. I literally played mii gunner as a character to do damage from far away and when they get close: up b
I’m surprised Chrom wasn’t even an honorable mention considering it does more than 25%. But I guess it’s lack of kill power does hurt
Chrom's a combo fiend, everything he does deals a million damage. If you took Chrom's up B and gave it to Sheik, it would be an amazing OOS for her because it would be by far her highest damage option at any point. But for Chrom himself... I mean you can just use any aerial OOS to start a combo that'll deal 25% or more so its not that relevant.
Honestly I think Luigi down b is good OOS. It’s invincible, fast, has a wind box, and just like bowser up b you can move, but Luigi can move faster, not to mention this can also catch spot dodges. Just my opinion. (As a Luigi main…)
it’s frame 20 out of shield though and in any situation where you would use it super jump punch is just better
Luigi has one too...
I'd say if Luigi mains carefully timing their up-special, down-special and following up aeiral attacks.
I think Rosa's up smash could be a contender for top 10 due to large hitbox, knockback and decent end.
My favorite thing about smash is how Zoners have great out of shield options.
Game and watch is number one without contest. Putting that on any character could instantly make that character amazing.
Holy you just made me imagine Falco using GnW up b as a combo starter. "I just touched his shield one time and now its not letting me skip the cutscene!"
@@brain_tonic Literally any character other than like the slowest ones in the game which don't have great range. So basically ganon incin doc little mac. But in general this shit bs.
Suprised i didnt see ness's neutral air at least in the honorable mentions at low percents it sets up for legendary tech chase combos and at high percents it kills or sets up for an easy ledgetrap or edgeguard and its quite fast and if you drift its can hit a decent area around you
Yeah I'm a Ness main, how'd you know?
Meta Knights Down Air is frame 4 making it a 7-frame OOS option. At low percents if you hit someone offstage with it you can carry them to the blastzone with a bridge. At mid percents it puts them in a tech situation and at high percentages it puts the opponent in a position where its easy to gimp most of the cast
Didnt expect mii gunner
I'm surprised you didn't mention Mii Brawler's soaring axe kick or thrust uppercut. Both are amazing oos with SAK having longer range than cloud up b and the ability to kill at 0 at ledge, and thrupper being frame 3, tied for fastest in the game and it actually kills, unlike game and watch.
Still glad you mentioned Mii Gunner up b though, no one talks about how nutty that move is.
Now, SAK can kill by itself but it only kills near the ledge and this about OOSs. Thrupper is fast, but it's range is terrible, while Fire is huge, doesn't put you into freefall and is just more versatile in general.
People dont about it because it is a crappy recovery, but like i said as a OoS it is stupid good
Thrupper is garbage oos, horrible hitbox
You overestimate how consistent Snake Dair is
Yeah i'm surprised he even mention it was inconsistent. Seriously dair is dumb
I'm sure sora would take link's spot in here considering his up b is essentially the same in terms of kill power but with the safety of witch twist due to side special
It is slower tho
Sora also doesn't have a grounded up-b so you're pretty much dead if you miss. Of course he does have the whole safety with the side special so you can get out of some situations
I am genuinely surprised as a Pac player to not see nair or dair oos on this list. Nair is incredibly fast and I can drift back a sizeable distance with it, and our dair can catch people who low profile on our shield, one of the reason we actually slightly beat the likes of Pikachu in the matchup. There's also recaught Galaxian or Bell oos because if you shield with either of those in hand you kinda just win neutral.
Isn't Dair just like a slightly-worse version of Snake's? Mockrock was clear he doesn't want to have this list be too repetitive, so I don't think he'd include both characters' Dairs.
@@jonathanlgill true but Pac's is much bigger and can drag people off the stage if they're anywhere near ledge and kill them like that since it has amazing base kb. Plus he can even retreat with it and hit it more consistently, making it better for dealing with cross ups.
2 mockrock videos in one day? You have truly blessed us, good sir.
I think Chrom's is absurd, frame 10, does over 20 damage, kills, huge hitbox, armor on frames 10-30. It's crazy. Easily surpasses Link and Doc imo. I would also swap doc up-b for luigi up-b, even though luigi's is significantly slower, the fact that it kills at 50 is just too good not to pass up tbh. I think everything else is pretty valid though. Steve fair/bair oos is also another rlly good argument.
Chrom's up b can be di'd so it doesn't connect every time.
Luigi's up b also requires terrible spacing for the sweetspot to land.
Darkest lariat is another really good out of shield option. Frame 5, invincibility, and it does incredible shield damage, especially if the first hitbox hits shield.
I don't think I'll ever get sick of "It does 20 percent."
glad u mentioned min min and bayo! u did good at mentioning some rly good but less common options
The 25th anniversary music in the background of the links' up B section👌
And In the Final for Bowser's! Excellent choices my guy!
Great list!
Personally I’d have placed captain falcon’s up B. Not super quick, but not slow either. If it’s whiffed which Is relatively rare, you have good mobility to evade. It’s a command grab + Great at getting Falcon out of disadvantage and deters pressure on shield. Also can be used on either side of falcon and kills pretty early!
Like I say, the list and reasons for placements are all very solid. Great video!
No Luigi? Or did I miss that? He’s even in the thumbnail 👀
I think it's incredibly odd that the vast majority of the best Out of Shield Options are on characters who absolutely should not have that kind of option.
Charizard up b and up smash are both worthy of being in the honorable mentions
His up b is fast and kills and has super armour, along with doing work for charizard when he generally has a really hard time when he's on the back foot. Up smash is slower but also kills in the same way.
@@arinodonichi7928 the only thing you got wrong was that upsmash is slower or so fast at frame 5
@@Keegan006 I mained zard in 4 and I'm still dumb XD.
@@arinodonichi7928 don’t worry so did I
Hehe that range
Didn’t expect to see Cannon Jump Kick on this video
dolphin slash is a frame 5 killing oos with frame 4-5 intang
a move i actually think would be a solid contender would be ganondorfs nair out of shield, it's a very good shield poker, it's frame 7, it's got kill power, and it's actually somewhat safe on shield, as well as being a multi hit....
zelda’s up b is such a good oos option it murders at 70-90%
I mean doesnt really combo, a lil inconsistent, puts you in freefall really high up off the ground, endlag… not an amazing move oos. Link has the better killer imo.
@@HippityhoppityGnW You don't have to follow up by going high with her upB.
You can also teleport to the sides if you're unsure or don't want to risk it. it's still a good get-off-me tool.
@@provence8917 true but its not as great a killer as oc made it out to be
Lest we forget that on top of ALL the perks that Gunner’s Up B gets, it can also Spike
Even these "lower effort" videos are still significantly high quality than most content creators in the scene. Well done as always, comment for the algorithm.
hitbox is equally important as frame data
One I haven't seen people talk about is ROB up-smash. While it comes out on frame 10 (which might be on the slow side) it's still powerful. Most importantly, it can hit on both sides, so you can't cross-up the shield.
For absolutely no reason zoners like pac-man and rob can box super well for no reason
honestly a little surprised to see diddy's up smash left out, it's frame 5 and has solid range all around it for what it is, plus it's not too bad at killing for what diddy is used to
The three hits maybe don't connect as reliably as they ought to.
Charizard up smash oos is quite good, frame 6 and decently strong. Also pika back air is pretty good, can lead to death at times kind of like Mario’s up air (but to a lesser extent), or at the very least a decent combo.
Clouds climhazzard .Don't know if it's top ten but it's close. Has pretty good range and can make some safe on shield moves not safe on shield. Also, think its frame 7
5:07 which part of Snake are you referring to as a stacked cake 🤔👀
I walked into this thinking "Will he please give Mii Gunner the recognition for her 2nd USpecial?". This absolutely godly out of shield option is significantly more powerful of one than any out of shield option on a zoner has any right to be. I'd argue it's more of a problematic move than Snake's DAir to be perfectly honest.
It's not a problematic move at all bcz it's an abysmal recovery tool, you will rarely see Mii Gunners actually choose this move
It sucks for recovery tho, so almost no one runs it
@@wonderful_whiscash9534 On a character that's already barely played.
As a Bayonetta main it made me unreasonably happy to see Witch Twist mentioned. Sure she's not as good as she once was, but I've always considered it an incredibly strong OOS option because it can lead into 50+% combos and - if people DI badly - potentially death.
No, not cannon jump kick. It has very poor range out of sheild. It's frame 6 sure, but if you miss, you will get fully charged smash attacked. Even if you hit it, you can still get punished. It's like rest out of shield. If people just space around it, they will be fine. Plus, you would never want to used it over the other up B's. On top of that, arm rocket is probably better even without a hit box. It's frame 3 with only 14 frames of landing lag, so if you can retreat to a platform or mix it up with a grab or up smash to make them want to get away or sheild after they hit your sheild, it's very hard to punish and gets gunner away.
It’s actually really big. And most up bs OOS are punishable on whiff. If you’re being punished for using up b OOS as gunner, that means YOU as a player made a mistake. Doesn’t mean the move is worse.
@@Metalc yeah, it's big if the opponent holds into your sheild. Grab and up smash are both bigger, but even then, I don't recommend using them for OOS. Like look at link up B for example: way bigger, hits on both sides, and is only one frame slower. And for the record, I think most Up Bs out of sheild are trash due to low range, even if thier fast.
No pika back air? It is frame 4 and can combo you to hell and back.
Just look at the last stock of leo vs esam at glitch lmao
It's incredibly good...half the time. I intentionally didn't put forward/back airs on here for that reason haha
@@MockRockTalk I guess thats true. Thanks for the clarification!
@@MockRockTalk you really forgot charizard even in the honorable menchon but put Mario up air …….. I really don’t see who this happens
upB out of shield: every masher's dream (basically every main of the characters on this list)
When u see this prompt, I instantly think Ness Nair for some reason
I’m a ness player and I agree that it’s great. But it is still frame 8 which is a lot slower than a lot of other options. Still great, just not as good as some others.
Can’t believe that Zelda’s up B out of shield isn’t a top 10, it can kill earlier than any other. It isn’t the fastest but it’s also a good set off me tool.
Bowser with a better recovery would be a unanimous top tier. He's insane in this game and that's the only thing holding him back.
No his disadvantage state is the main thing holding him back. Recovery is mediocre, but not his biggest issue.
FINALLY someone talking about mii gunners cannon kick
It’s way better then people think and that shit SPIKES.
A recovery that SPIKES
Luigee on the thumbnail but no mention of him 😭
Great video! I would question the exclusion of pikachu back air though.
Pikachu's bair is a fantastic OoS move _if_ your opponent is behind you, which applies less than half the time. Hard to justify it on this list given that context.
Surprised to not see pac man (or yoshi)
And personally, I think Bowser's short hop side b out of shield needs to be mentioned for whirling fortress oos to be considered, because Bowser flip means even crossing up his sheild with a safe option isn't safe, because he can just b reverse a command grab and punish almost any option after hitting a shield, although spot dodge does turn it to a 50/50 (upb beats spot dodge but loses to shield, shield beats up b but loses to side b)
So glad to see someone talk about mii gunner's up B. That move is so ridiculously powerful and satisfying to kill with!
Mii Gunners up B is so underrated
I love mii gunner's cannon up b it's such a good oos and 2 frame spike as well
Babe wake up new MockRock Talk video
Give us more double uploads pls
Ah yes, Gaiman Watches Fire.
Mii Brawler's Soaring Axe Kick. Frame 10, INCREDIBLY disjointed, high base knockback, can set up into some combos, and even some edgeguarding scenarios near the ledge, and CAN EVEN KILL AT 0% NEAR THE LEDGE. Absolutely insane.
Shoryuken is underrated...I'd definitely place it above doc's cause it's quicker and stronger
Doc’s is frame 3 while shoryu is frame 5.
@@eaa1338 Yeah, I found that out. I think it's just that Ryu's shoryuken is more of a direct hit, it just feels faster and is definitely more reliable as a killing move
This channel (and the main one) is the most fun frame data talk. This might be one of my favorite channels. Probably my favorite smash channel
Zelda’s Final Smash could’ve have made the honorable mentions at least
St. Louis literally points out when Snakes don't dair oos, since we have ApolloKage
I heard alpharqd talk about that mii gunner kick and that 1 move made it my day 1 main when I got the game, its a crazy under talked about move, if it went further it would be busted
This feels like a crash course video
luigis up b over doc's what the hell are you thinking?
Luigis up b isn’t even on this list what are you talking about.
I’m asking why they would be docs up b in the list instead of Luigi’s stupid. It’s even in the thumbnail.
@@benjason_94 ok no need to get so heated. I was just asking. The simple answer is that adding characters that aren’t actually in the video is a common tactic for thumbnails and a really functional one at that.
Yeah it’s really annoying
As a Snake main I agree I don’t understand what the devs were thinking when they designed his moveset.
Toonlinks spin attack is better because it has decent kill power, multiple hits, but ALWAYS sends in the direction he is facing even those behind toonlinks get launched forward
I love that you remember about mii fighters in your videos. Also they help me a lot ahah
Zelda's up b is very good too tho
Why isn't pikachu's bair in this list or at least in the honorable mentions? I'ts really fast, combos into itself and it's very hard to punish.
He mentioned somewhere in the comments that its fantastic IF you are behind him.
Where is Charizard Upsmash?🤔🤨 Frame 6, hits on both sides, Insane range + it kills
Only untill today did i realize that is ganons up tilt in the intro
Mii brawler rocket kick also spikes off stage
Also another honorable mention could be yoshi nair, it’s very fast and strong for a nair
Let's go! Someone mentioned Mii Gunner's existence!
Shulk up b?
Charizard up smash?
Chrom up b?
Too slow
Too short and connects poorly
Too slow
Pretty sure Min Min Usmash didn't get nerfed hard in terms of ko power. I play her and I keep forgetting that it ever got nerfed
No, it certainly did. It used to be able to kill at around 15-20% earlier than it does now.
really? Guess I wasn't abusing it's ko power pre-nerf then
I would just like to admit i literally popped off when you talked about cannon jump. I run that move on gunner specifically for the quick kill and oos option.
id say dedede up b out of shield is the best out of shield option, only because its frame 69
MockRockTalk: Snake dair does 20%
Yoshi dair has left the chat.
I wanted so desperately for Cloud to make the list.
Docs upB over Luigi upB 🤯
Surprised Shulk's Air Slash wasn't even mentioned in the honourable mentions. Super solid kill move with Smash and deals nice damage with Buster. It also helps deal with one of Shulk's biggest weaknesses (overwhelming pressure)
It's great, but probably not Top 10. Shulk's awful air acceleration makes it a very high commitment out of shield option (if it whiffs), and it has some other oddities to it like being unsafe-on-hit at low/mid percents in Buster Art and not reliably connecting in Jump Art. It's got deceptively large horizontal range, though, so it's definitely a great move.
"Next up...." *Snake pops up
Oh yeah, you know where this is going.
5:40 alpharad viewers will remember when he went on a tyrade about how good that move is, spending pretty much a whole friendlies match sitting in shield waiting to throw it out. As someone who later tried that, it is in fact insane. (I believe this happened in one of his sans sin smash videos)