I'm from a remote village and for a long time I had only 1 friend who played MTG with any kind of dedication. We both played legacy - I played white weenie and he played U/W control with Moat and Standstill. We couldn't really afford other decks (all though we did proxy up stuff occasionally). We must have pitted those decks against each others hundreds of times and some of those games were frustrating as hell. Having your entire board blanked by a Moat or getting every spell countered after having to trigger Standstill was not what I would describe as a fun experience. But that was the only MTG that was available for me - the other option was to go home and be bored. So I toughed it out. Those games with my friend made me basically immune to any kind of frustration related to counterspells or lock pieces. When I look at some reactions that newer players have to getting their spells countered, I am absolutely baffled, as in my mind, counterspelling is just a very normal axis of interction within the game. I am thankful for the character building experience I had with my friend's U/W control as I feel like it has made me a much more chill person around the table😀
Yeah, I started playing during revised. Playing against and with stone rain was normal. I don't understand the aversion to land destruction as a means to counter ramp.
I wish there were more LD options like Keldon Firebombers. In multiplayer, I like the ones that drop people down to very few lands instead of just destroying all of them.
@@Sicktoid The thing with land destruction is that you better win that god damn turn because if I'm sitting there at the table for another 30 minutes with 2 lands because you couldn't close the game out after stopping me from playing entirely, you've wasted the valuable time in my day I took out to play a card game
@@victorperezurbano9504 you're missing the point entirely. The point is for everyone to have fun. If your version of fun is winning by making everyone else not want to play against you, that is an incredible dig on your own character.
I think people don't disclose powerful or salty cards because they will get targeted out of the gate and become the archenemy for a card that is in their deck they might not even draw.
I think it's more that it's totally subjective based on your opponents and the list of cards people don't like is so large that disclosing cards would require just passing out a deck list
I agree with this, people are immature, especially the common tcg player. You say "hey my wincon is armageddon in my superfriends deck" and they go "oh you're playing armageddon in the deck? dead by turn 4" because they hate MLD that much. I've watched an entire table force someone out of the game before they could even get going because that person was running a card everyone else didn't like in their deck. Not the commander, but inside the deck itself. TLDR: TCG players are immature and can't handle the saltier cards in the game so they gang up on one player first just for having a salty card in their deck
Fuck that, disclosing cards in general just doesn’t make sense. Tbh I feel like way more players should adopt this: hate players, not cards. Don’t get focused on the cards that you don’t like to play against, learn to play with them and counter them. On the flip side, learn to hate players for being salty, making an objectively wrong play, being spiteful, etc. the only times when I get mad at magic are when people purposefully either throw the game or spite play people, not when I don’t like a certain card
I disagree with having to disclose cyclonic rift, because knowing it’s available doesn’t change how you play the game. If a deck passes with 7 mana up, you know something is coming, and cyclonic rift is probably the least variable option in terms of “not playing around it” ; whether you know it’s coming or not, you end up in the same situation. This is different than something like ruination/Armageddon, where you might hold some extra lands or fetch differently, or infinite combos, where you’ll prioritize removing the individual pieces. If you are going to disclose cyc rift, or fast mana for that matter, its probably part of a power discussion like “This is a casual Dimir skeleton deck, but with some fast mana like crypt, and powerful interaction like cyc rift. It’s a seven 😅 “
Ok cool but you all got it wrong about Crim! He is not the villain he is the hero. He is the guy who stops people from ramping to oblivion, drawing a million cards, casting game breaking spells. 100% the hero!
33:33 Making yourself the archenemy before even shuffling up is kinda detrimental to a EDH game, if you want to play Archenemy, play Archenemy. If it's such a big deal, you'll just make yourself the archenemy once you play it, and that rush to cooperate to take down the strongest player with the resources that you collectively have is way more fun than just everyone holding back interaction from turn 1 on for when you try to do the thing. If it was that impactful and you won that game with it great but now its time for game two. Disclosing it right away is just depriving the former experience from happening at all and the "ticking time bomb" still exists every other game that you play with that deck. 45:40 You can always just not play that Armageddon, or tutor for not the other piece of your combo if their experience is more important than playing to win the game, but also like I expect everyone to play to win the game and others to expect the same so when someone plays a cards that furthers their gameplan then others can't rightfully be upset if you do play that Armageddon.
Yeah, tried my Myra Deck one Time against stronger Decks and well, i got the Lotus Turn 1 and what happened, my commander got removed before i could cast any Spell and until i yould recast him the game was over, sure expensiv Cards can make your Deck stronger but, if it`s depending on the Commander, mostly then they are weaker
For your first point: It's a double edged issue. On one hand, if you disclose it's as you said, you haven't done anything but everyone's out to get you and you have three people piling on and it's tough to deal with. But on the other hand, if you don't disclose it, to everyone else you likely aren't having that big an impact on the game, maybe played a few draw value pieces, maybe a pillowfort piece, stuff that makes folks go "I'll deal with them later", only to all of a sudden declare the game is over, not only unsatisfying due to its suddenness but also because of the lack of counterplay opportunities, because the only way to counterplay it would be to either know beforehand or to just guess and focus them out on an assumption, which leads to either the first scenario mentioned or worse takes out someone that was playing a slower jank deck for the crimes of combo decks. EDH games take a long time and I don't think it reasonable for someone to play an entire game against it just to be prepared for next time, assuming you ever even play against them again and with the same deck and they remember what happened last time. That's what the disclosure is about, so folks can know upfront rather than learn 30+ minutes later "Oh by the way this is a combo deck and you should've held up a counter but 'cause you didn't know because I intentionally didn't tell you you lose"
@@Tuss36 Well a control player not being able to prevent an unprotected otk is misplay most of the time that or they jout of resources from preventing the previous player form comboing off. I don't think of EDH as a new player format magic is daunting enough without adding in singleton, 100 card decks, and 2 more opponents, so I presume that the control player has above average threat assessment and doesn't just ignore the player durdling with a deck they haven't played against before but doesn't seem to be trying to play a control deck either.... Maybe that's my experience and perhaps you play EDH with lots of new players with unpowered precons and enjoy showing the plays you can make even if they don't come up in the game so that they can learn. That's cool too.
My view on Blood Moon. If I have to disclose it, it is a dead card in my deck. I don't play Blood Moon because the players I face are barely affected by it. Their decks contain enough basics to make Blood Moon a minor annoyance rather than a stax piece. Now, the table hates me, and they have the mana to cast their spells to kill me. If Blood Moon isn't a dead card, the power level is high enough to not need a warning.
I’ve seen Bloodmoon do nothing some games, and also completely shut down individual players in others. I can’t say whether or not someone should need to say they are playing Bloodmoon, but being aware of how heavily it could impact someone’s experience is something to consider.
People freak about blood moon but don't care anything about Grand Arbiter Augustine IV, Ghostly prison, Windborn Muse, or any of the other normal Stax pieces, which are more of a universal "you cannot play the game" type effect. Not just "oh no, 3 of my 6 lands are red now".
I like the way CovertGoBlue's Worst Possible show does their rule 0 convo. They show the scariest thing their decks can do. Never hurts the game. Makes it more dramatic when a combo piece hits the table.
I am surprised to realise, that I don't care for most of these to be disclosed. Fast mana, expensive cards, infinite combos even with tutors. Have them, idc. But pls let me know whether I get to play magic or not. Do you run mass discard / narset wheel? Or MLD? Karn great creator, 3feri, extra turns loop without instant win con? Bcs then I want to make sure to leave the table in time. I do like the idea of disclosing 3 emblematic cards for everyone though!
I have a deck that's designed to surprise kill out of nowhere, but generally can only kill one player and can't usually put up much of a defense once I pop off, so I'll almost always die on the crackback. I don't disclose that my wincon is infect, but I do disclose that it can surprise kill out of nowhere, but generally doesn't win, despite popping off. I really like having a deck that is so surprising, but I also struggle to balance that line of surprising my pod but not making them salty. I'm convinced that you can't balance that on a first play with a group. After I've played with a people a few times, it's fun to pull out, but I've decided I like to get comfortable with a group before playing anything that intentionally surprises anyone.
I'd rather see a deck that combos and ends the game than takes one person out, shuffling up feels less bad than two people dying and the 1v1 taking an extra 40 mins
@@egoish6762 I agree. That's why I've stopped running it with new pods. It's just not cool to do something like that unless you know the group will be okay with it.
In general I disagree that you need to announce cards specific cards as long you you communicate power level. Cards like cyclonic rift or great hedge don’t need to be disclosed. Fast mana shouldn’t be played in casual unless everyone knows that is the power level and they are also playing it. Everything else I don’t think you should have to disclose. If you are playing something really good or really provocative you should be playing at a table that is high power enough people are not surprised.
I dont think people need to disclose every card in their deck but should give people an idea of how it plays / power level. I play a 800$ strefan deck after cutting my Badlands. Has the one ring and jeweled lotus but its strictly combat focused, pure vampire tribal, not etb / death triggers/ pinging like crazy with blood tokens entering.
Is 9 counters really that bad, how many pieces of removal do most decks run? Like 15... So a mono blue deck using counters as their only protection spells and only removal spells then it is actually a lot less than most decks run - but still feels more salty somehow
@@norpoop I mean, there's a lot of removal spells out there. In my decks I usually include the "best" ones for the colors I'm running plus any that are playable and synergistic with what my deck wants to do. Sometimes that's 15, sometimes it's 10, but it's almost never less than that.
I play blue. I’d rather not run that many counters. Need me some redirects to two for one my opponents spot removal. Counters are for protecting your board from wipes and protecting your game winning play. Countering a non-threat is a waste and only serves to generate hate for you
One thing to consider is that counterspells will stop things that have ETB effects whereas other removal happens after the ETB triggers go on the stack. For example, countering a dockside will completely throw off that players plans for the turn. But they're also playing dockside and deserve it.
There's a distinction between "combo deck" and "deck with a combo". In a combo deck, the combo is *the point*. Some folks told synergistic combos in decks just because games have to end eventually. I have several decks that contain infinites and win often, but have never won *with the combo*.
I had a guy once refuse to mention his decks powerlevel / wincon but mentioned "but it does run infinite combos..." so we all took out our strongest decks. Turned out he was playing a lifegain deck with sanguine bond + exquisite blood. It wasn't powerful at all... He did not have a good time.
Maybe you weren't listening to what they said? I have a janky Kambal consul of allocations deck that's enchantment tribal. It's *really* bad but it does have bloodbond. If I draw it, I probably win. If I don't, it's just a normal drain deck.
@@davidrosenberg9615 I think the distinction is that either piece of the combo works with the rest of a lifegain deck. If you resolve a Sanguine Bond in a lifegain deck then it's just a way to do more damage. Exquisite blood triggers all the lifegain payoffs. Whereas Thassa's Oracle is just a merfolk with a bit of card draw unless a library is pretty deliberately emptied. Demonic Consultation without Thassa's Oracle or other empty-library payoff is just a hugely risky tutor that's probably not worth running.
I don't feel that Cyclonic Rift needs to be forewarned. It's a piece of interaction, albeit a very good one. If someone is in blue, I assume they're playing Rift. That said, I should share it anyways because not everyone shares my views.
It really depends on relative budget levels. While Rift is a no-brainer include, there are a lot of players out there who don’t have the budget for a single card worth 40 bucks. So just as a point of courtesy, ask for budget levels, and if anyone’s below 200 or so, just bring it up.
@@granite_4576 That's silly to me. I've seen degenerate stuff done in every single color. Most folks just get big feelings from losing to control. I don't mind it, different play styles make for a healthy metagame.
It's 7 mana card that basically is a "wincon-enabler" if the table is playing a battlecruiser meta and are currently at a stalemate, and you already have a good boardstate. The card hasn't been "too powerful" in years. Most often I see rift being kind of a "time rewind" effect, if the player casting it doesn't close the game after casting rift.
There are definitely some ubiquitous cards that annoy me, but yeah, announcing to me before the game that you're running dockside/rhystic/smothering/Narset is more of a gesture. Yes, this is the state of even the casual meta, and you're gonna be running some cards I don't like- but it is ultimately still on me to not react in a way that is too sour. I like to have different experiences in every game and not everyone shares that sentiment, but I do have full control over the cards that I am running.
Personally it feels like it can warp the game in a bad way. I understand trying to avoid salt but when you're able to shortcut threat assessment and saving your removal for win cons that get explained in rule 0, that feels wrong. If you're disclosing just themes, that's very different. You aren't making players focus on specific cards. I guess if everyone gains the advantage it's okay; but, I feel it really changes how people interact and will only try to interact with the combo/winning lines of play. It really hurts how to assess threats properly. I've seen it also cause a ton of salt and aggravation when you win in a different way than stated in the rule 0. Like I say I win with craterhoof but then end up killing people with a bunch of Angels from Divine Visitation it produces some really wierd amounts of salt. I think it's better to get a general power level and don't bring in other expectations that can warp the game in a way that ends up promoting bad game play and poor expectations. We also need to destigmatize $$=Power. It's simply not true. Dual Lands especially, the money put into them versus the payoff is not worthwhile.
100% agree. Communicate general power level and don’t play something that obviously outmatches everyone. I don’t think you have to say specific cards unless you are playing something you shouldn’t be for the power level like a crypt against low power decks.
While I'm not sure I'm in agreement on your primary point, I definitely agree that cost should suggest power, not dictate it, is the minds of players, especially where lands are concerned.
I kinda feel like pointing to dual lands in EDH as your example for that point doesn’t do a good job of describing your point. I don’t have an issue with you playing a bunch of duals rather than Shocks. I might have an issue with your deck being packed with Mana Crypt/Jeweled Lotus/Rest of the $$ Fast Mana. Heh, I *wish* people announced running Farewell. Would make the, “Am I out for Orzhov or Esper blood first?” calls much, *much* easier. Stupid card should do *one* mode of choice for 6 CMC, or just be an 8 CMC mega-spell.
I feel like holding removal for just the game winning threats would be stifling your strength in its own way, letting opponents do whatever hoping for the "real" threat to come down, only for it not to and you've lost because you were holding out for a threat that never came.
@@Tuss36 You're not incorrect, but OP was more concerned about what happens to players 2, 3, and 4's overall gameplay experience when player 1 spends all game holding onto a removal spell for player 2's rumored win condition. Player 1's bad that assessment leading to player 1 losing the game is a normal part of the game. It's when it leads to other players kissing the game along with them that people get surly.
Everything in this video, taken on its own, seems reasonable enough. And there are so many conditionals and caveats sprinkled throughout that I could scarcely find fault in it. Fair enough. I worry that casual EDH, or at least a growing subset of casual EDH, is afflicted with a kind of etiquette creep. Etiquette bloat? Whichever. I was drawn to this format because it presented an open field where I might actually get to play with fun and quirky cards I remember from my youth, especially ones that could never make the cut in Legacy or other formats. That's not to say it's ALL about nostalgia for me. I enjoy new stuff too, especially if I can find a way to put a unique twist on something. But I played a lot of multiplayer Magic in the late 90's and early 00's, and I can't shake the sense that if someone like me had fallen out of the hobby and was only coming back to it now, there'd be layers of social expectations, proscriptions, and norms that would seem bizarre. Pregame discussions? Taboo cards that aren't actually banned? Salt scores? Expectations that should only concede during certain windows of time? Cards you should disclose? I'm not trying to be a curmudgeon here. I'm not saying don't do any of these things. It's just, man, that's a lot. We can see that it's a lot, right? And it seems like the list is only growing. For a fun, casual format, how many things that aren't even part of the game itself do you want to add as meta-gameplay? Because if it's just a couple of things, I'd think reasonable folks would probably try to accommodate those things. But it sure seems like we're approaching, um, something. Etiquette overload? I don't know...
It's overkill is what it is. I'm all for being polite and accommodating but holy cow, I just wanna play man, not have a six hour rule 0 convo before we play. The most I do is tell people what my deck is built to do if they ask. And if they want to look through my deck before hand than so be it. But disclosing multiple cards off the top of my head before hand cause someone MIGHT have beef with it? That's overboard. However I assume this is for a more casual pod than the ones I'm apart of. I play with anything goes and all playstyles are welcome as long as it's legal so talks of "salty" cards before hand isn't even in our wheelhouse. We take our commanders out, put em on the table and go to town. And we all have a hell of a time in the process.
To top it off, new players are expected to know all of this before playing. I've seen groups get mad at new players because they didn't and it's rather ridiculous. We really need a ban list and if it's not on the banlist, you can play it. It's not healthy for the format to make up all these pretty dumb "etiquette" rules and expect every person to follow them and if one is broken, throw a tantrum or ridicule the person that may not have even broken it on purpose. I know they talk about EDH players aren't the ego maniacs like they said in the podcast but physically seeing it says otherwise.
@@chriselliott5539 Content creators trying to to dictate player behavior and a good chunk of the community just accepting it as the norm is kind of the problem. Some guy is gonna show up to an FNM and probably get shit on because he didn’t tell announce a piece of fast mana.
It seems like a lot when you list it out like that, but most of what it comes down to is "be considerate of the time the other people are spending with you to play this game." A lot of these kinds of cards that are centered in this convo are certain types of stax pieces or non-deterministic infinites that drag out games and slow them to a crawl. I'm an adult with a life outside of the silly card game that I very much love dearly. I only have so much time to play and I want to play as much as possible in that time. There are types of themes where the strategy is preventing the other players from playing the game, and I think those themes generally make for exhausting games that drain my energy.
>i would like you to tell me that youre running this amount of boardwipes so i can target you first Didnt you *just* say that telling people about your deck shouldnt influence how often you win with it
When you mentioned chaos decks on spelltable it reminded me - In the past 6 months, I've played something like 3 games in person, and everything else has been on spelltable, and that has impacted the way that I build. I have a Tasha deck that I was in the middle of assembling, and I don't know if I'm going to finish getting the cards together because it's the kind of deck that I only would want to play in person.
The only things I want to know about is chaining extra turns, mld, $$$ fast mana, two card combos, and free counterspells. Huh... I guess that is a lot lol
These are the things I consider on the power level of my deck and that’s a critical part of turn zero conversation. That said I never disclose SPECIFIC cards, just categories of cards as to not give things away.
I sidestep all complaints about power level questions by just handing my deck to any other players and giving them permission to examine the whole thing. Since what is objectionablr is highly dependant on who objects, I cut out all middlemen
I've built a rogue tribal mill deck around Anowon the Ruin Thief, but I haven't gotten to play it at full power yet. I haven't found a table that's willing to have it as arch enemy thus far. 🤷♂️
I like watching spike feeders cedh games because they state how all their decks go for the win. Because if you want it to be a surprise thats great but what about the second game? Do people just never play those decks with the same people?
This is what Rule 0 should be. Trying to quantify power on a scale is completely subjective and useless, as is saying what your deck costs (for the most part). Rule 0 should be identifying key cards in your deck to give people the closest idea to what their subjective view of your decks power is. If you call your deck a 6 but you say you have mana crypt in it, people will automatically bump that to an 8. TLDR; let's change Rule 0 convos to "here's some of the good cards im playing in this deck and here's my strategy"
no, part of the fun in playing magic is figuring out your opponent's deck the first time you play it, or even the first few times and figuring out an answer.
@@ceroluthor in theory yes. In practice when everyone subjectively states what their deck power is and then plays a card outside of peoples perception, salt ensues. Literally just saw this exact thing over an undisclosed jeweled lotus in a casual pod
@@MEver316 all magic on some level is competitive, the competitive levels is why power levels exist. at the end of the day someone is trying to win otherwise magic would be incredibly boring
as one who just finnished building a chaos deck, I try and make the pregame convo pretty clear and i give the option for players to leave if they dont want to participate in at at any point in the game and when i can cast effects like warp world and theives auction i ask before i cast those effects. but, playing a chaos deck over spelltable, that is a huge level of Chaotic EVIL lol
I have a morph deck and a mill-theft that arent that powerful, but i know people dont like to play against them very often so i almost never play them if it is the first game with strangers, or against new players. And i avoid playing without letting ppl know or asking what they think about the strategy. I think it is good to talk about strategies Edit: oh, i had to rewritte this bc i missclicked and forgot to add that both are decks i just never wanted to play on spelltable (i tried once with each and the experience was bad not only for the table, but for me as well)
In general, why not have everyone select their decks and then in the pre-game discussion disclose anything that really needs disclosure? That way if people aren't cool with what you are running, you get the option to change decks knowing what else is at the table, rather than everyone reacting by picking decks with that info in mind. Just an idea.
I only really see people swap when the discussion shows that they are about to get hard countered, I have a kibo deck that goes hard in the artifact hate direction, and I understand when the artifact or voltron commander doesn't wanna play their deck versus that
Only deck I really run Approach in is Elminster. It's literally the perfect thematic wincon for the deck, high cost reduced by Elminster, scry to the card and costreduce it again to cast for the win. I'm not mystical tutoring for it or anything, but it is one of the few solid wincons in the deck, and if I did disclose it I'd probably win a lot fewer games. That said, it fits so well with the deck thematically that I've never had a problem with it, even at lower power levels.
Every single Azorius deck that is not tribal/midrange should run Approach. Azorius is the worst two color combination for winning a game, because It has no real wincons apart from Approach or weird three/four card combos. Approach makes the game "faster" because you know that, once is first casted, the game will end quickly unless you kill that player, who is usually the control player.
@@Controlqueen31 azorius is bad at winning games because azorius players fill their deck with control pieces. You could build a creature based azorius deck that uses blue for tempo plays and countering board wipes and white for creature synergies and token generators and then you win with overrun and anthem effects, if you wanted to, but no one does, its always control/stax.
@@soleo2783the deck you're describing is a tribal deck, like spirits or humans. That's all. Azorius doesn't have overrun effects and most anthems are pretty lame. I would be delighted to see wotc give us other tools, but they have other priorities, like giving Naya a thousand more fun commanders.
@@StoneSourFanBoy doesnt need to be tribal, nothing i described necessitates a certain creature type. And yes, azorius does have overrun effects, because mono-white has overrun effects, in fact it has probably the best one before craterhoof, moonshaker cavalry, and then there's Akroma's will, akroma's memorial, etc etc. If you have a board state and arent just casting it cuz you can, cyclonic rift is also diy evasion, just add an anthem on top of it or smth and youre good.
@@soleo2783 I was waiting for the moonshaker or the akroma's, but those are not part of a strategy, they can go in pretty much any deck with white that goes wide. We could even say that they are better in non azorius decks because we have a lot of flyers in these. The only thing that is close to an azorius overrun is the mkm card pumping our team for each card we draw. Which is not really an azorius strategy. If we have to rely on 4 cards that are the same for each deck or on Aoe that can clear the way just to go through, nothing makes that playstyle an azorius way of doing it. The same way a craterhoof is not a gruul way to win games, but they have other options, other game plans, and benefit from a good commander diversity.
This is some dang good advice. I especially like the part about just letting folks know what kind of game they're getting into, as I agree it's much more easily digestible if knowing up front. It's like how you wouldn't just dump Planechase or the secret role variant in the middle of the game. Heck, even stuff like silver border 99% of folks are okay with, but just want a heads up first, as it rubs the wrong way otherwise, like you're taking advantage of folks or making the decision for them.
The consistently win part is hard to tell as in real games people don't really keep track of their turns unless not playing casual plus it is hard to say when you consistently win in actual live games since there is interaction. Let's also not forget that there are a lot of times that people build decks and never played them before so they go to test them out against real people as there is no telling on when it would consistently win. The only thing gold fishing does is let you know if you are mana screwed and need to fix the mana base as without the RNG of real people using their interaction there is no way to tell what turn you consistently win on.
Dana Roach continues to be incredibly worthy of his fitting name >i win 70% of my games >I insist that everyone tell me all.about their deck and how to counter them before every game Typical.
Man, I never wanted children before. But I have 4 x EDH decks, and 2 x Modern decks I really need to resleeve soon. I guess my partner and I better have another discussion about it!
Zur's Weirding holds games hostage. A guy in our pod has a grixis chaos deck and he dropped a Zur's Warding on us turn 3. One player never got above 3 lands since every land he drew got discarded by it. Eventually only the lifegian player was able to draw cards but it really warped the game. We banned it in our pod after that
There's a world of difference between a precon with a $1 Sol Ring and a CEDH deck with thousands of dollars of fast mana rocks. Running any of the main fast mana rocks beyond Sol Ring is generally a signpost of a deck optimized for power and utilizing a much higher than average budget. Disclosing this can help make sure people are playing at a similar level and one person isn't just pubstomping a casual table.
@coreyroberson4550 fast mana rocks are still fast mana rocks and just because sol ring cost $1 doesn't make it any less of a fast mana rock. Do you think sol ring would get the pass if instead mana crypt was instead the card reprinted to hell and back and sol ring stayed at it pre commander pricing?
@@sam7559 Sol Ring was $7 pre-commander, so not a huge issue. Granted, it is treated as an exception because it's in every precon and a ton of decks. But again, one single card vs a bunch of them says something about the deck. As does the amount of money invested. A $30 deck is not the same as a $3,000 deck. Disclosing that your deck is optimized for power and speed helps set a better expectation and makes sure people are going in looking for the same type of game.
When did the format become this? I can understand “hey guys, just so you know i’m playing stax”, but the examples given here are making out that the bad guy has to disclose “hey guys, I have some ramp and removal and a wincon”. I have two playgroups in different towns and the whole pregame discussion is “I’m playing superfriends”, “cool, I’ve got dragons”, “aight, I’m on landfall”
For me its not about surprising anyone, but giving away too much info has definatley impacted my play and my experience. Ive seen personally how bad an experience it creates for myself. Ive noticed that if i disclose info like this people will sandbag interaction and/or removal JUST for what ive disclosed. Then at that point im not getting to play the game that i want either and end yp feeling pressured to not play those decks or cards.
I have a Tergrid in one of my decks. I will never play the creature side, and I tell everyone that at the begining but I still get killed off first every time.
People are usually way more afraid of the unknown, rather of a deck that is completely revealed beforehand. Most of us just picture the worst case scenario when can't prove otherwise. So I would argue being so upfront on the pregame discussion is actually a tactical advantage.
I usually get my face broken by decks that I don't expect to be that good because the player explains to me what the deck does and I'm like "Ok, responsable". And then they proceed to do cool thing and I'm like "So that's what you were talking about..."
I have a challenge the stats pick that absolutely blows my mind: Saw in Half only appears in 5% of Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager decks, when it is an abolute all-star in mine whenever i play it.
Giving people a heads up that you're playing a certain strategy, such as mass land destruction, makes sense in a casual setting. Announcing a card (or cards) merely due to their value, seems a bit silly. "Hey, guys. I just want to let you know I'm playing a foil Masterpiece Sol Ring."
Disingenuous argument. Its not an issue if value its power. Which typically go hand in hand but you being cheeky with a masterpiece argument is totally off base
I tend to let people know if the base value of the cheapest card in my deck is over like 40 or 50 bucks, like Doubling Season. The art on the card means little. Remember that the most expensive magic card ever traded was used as a treasure token in a game on youtube.
If someone is playing a combo deck with fast mana or MLD, I just have to focus them first and close my eyes to anything the other opponents are doing. Those kinds of decks just win "out of nowhere" and if I don't have counter spell mana open always on from turn 2, I have low chances of winning. So it skews the table dynamic way too much for it to be much fun. But as long as everyone on the table understands that this games is arch enemy from turn 1, it's good stuff.
@@breakingtide I wrote that something is "silly." You called it a "Disingenuous argument." We might not be on the same page here. Should we have a Turn Zero Conversation...about this Turn Zero Conversation?
@EDHREcast Not sure the best way to let y'all know but the recording on Spotify is missing some of the recording. It cuts out before the fast mana section and jumps to challenging the stats.
a card liek thoracle in one context is very different than in another like a turn 2 combo win is very different than playing it in inalla becuase you pulled it from a pack and liked the art and it happened to be a wizard. (like my friend did, 6 months into his magic career, before he knew what cedh was, and got bullied for it. becuase it was a cool card that was a wizard in a wizard deck. that he had 0 clue about the combo implications)
This sort of thing is why I like CGB’s approach to the Rule 0 conversation. Jumping straight to the “worst possible” will often cover a lot of these things without anyone feeling like they’re being forced to mention cards in their deck ahead of time purely to avoid negativity from other players. It makes the conversation a dare to your opponents to stop you, and if they don’t think they can, this might be a poor matchup.
Also, on Dana’s comment about density of an effect (e.g. tutors) mattering, some of those effects don’t need many copies to alter how the deck plays. I have a Goblin deck that I built to be a Matt Morgan-style aggressive deck, but I included a 3-piece infinite combo as a way to just end long games or get around the players running 10 board wipes (also, all of the pieces are just fine cards in that deck). Thing is, all of the combo pieces are goblins, and I also run Goblin Matron, Boggart Harbinger, and Goblin Recruiter. In playing the deck, I found that the mere presence of those 6 cards (3 tutors and the combo) incentivizes me to play the deck as a combo deck instead of an aggro deck.
In the theme of chaos/hand disruption I would like to shout out Head Games as a card that might need a mention. This is my favourite pet card that starts in almost every black deck I build before inevitably being cut for being over costed and a little narrow.
As the newer releases have more and more bonkers legends I struggle to keep up with the value engines and power houses. As such I turn to obscure mass removal spells, stealing and stax to even the playing field. So I find this highly relevant.
Nah! We've got mass land destruction, Stax, counter spell tribal, eldrazi / sliver, mill, theft, infinite combos and any other form of salt inducing cards imaginable in my playgroup. It's fun to surprise people with something evil and once you get used to that sort of thing you can have more fun when those situations arise.
I disclose any cards in my deck that are within the EDHREC Top #100 most salty cards listing as well as # of fast mana and tutors or the presence of infinite combos. That said, I feel there's no such thing as preventing 100% of feelsbad for your opponent, a large part of that is up to your opponent though, I can only babyproof things so much.
Gosh literally this past week at my LGS, I asked the group I was playing with what general power level everyone was going for and everyone was saying just mid power level. Then one of the guys there proceeded to pull out some infinite combos, fast mana, and sweep the rest of the table. Definitely wouldve chosen a different deck had they disclosed that was the lind of deck they were going for.
Also with approach of the second sun and other alternate win cons, I don't care too much when they come out. I have approach in my alibou deck, but I normally mention I have alt Win cons when I usually play a Millennium Calendar turn one
I mean if someone's going to lie about being mid power level when they're running infinites and fast mana there's really nothing stopping them from just lying in a more detailed pregame discussion. This whol system breaks down if someone's lying but that's why we don't play with those people.
Just because a person plays fast mana and some infinite combos doesn't mean their deck isn't mid. This is where variance comes into play, maybe they drew a god hand. If I run a janky Zubera deck, glue it together with fast mana, and happen to have an infinite combo in the deck to make Zuberas even work, it could very well be a 5/10 on average. But if I hit a 1% starting hand having all my best pieces, it will seem overpowered when in reality a single counterspell could've pushed it back down into unplayable territory.
@oelboy given we were playing with a player who was playing a precon, the rest of the table seemed like they were going for lower mid level. The amount of high impact cards the player had in their deck really felt like they just failed to read what everyone else was going for. Like I said, would've chosen a different deck had I known more about what their deck was about so it wasn't such a blowout : P
To be fair your mid power level is different from everyone's else's. I could probably tell you now my Mid would probably be your Competitive because i don't see fast mana and some infinite combos to be all that bad
interesting convo. I ran into this awhile ago. The things I try to disclose are fast mana, if I'm running any infinites and MLD. I personally love Stax and won't play at tables that frown upon any version of stax. I have a mono red Daretti deck that is a dedicated combo deck. I absolutely let the table know by saying "Hey, I'm gonna be doing some busted things that may or may not include destroying or stealing all your permanents, and I fully expect to be the bad guy." That's fun to me. What I won't say is "the deck is built around this exact card. ".
This isn't a hard and fast rule to live by but i think the way to tell if a card should be announced is if you can tell the owner was putting it in the deck saying "Oh man, everybody is gonna hate this" vs. "Oh man this is gonna be a great synergy with the rest of my deck". There is zero chance that anyone putting a Winter Orb in their deck is wondering what the reaction will be when they play it. Farewell can be annoying but it can also be barely more than Austere command in certain scenarios. Blood Moon could have little to no effect depending on the pod. They aren't at the point of being universally recognized as a "Jesus christ why are you playing that" type card. You can always tell when its that kind of card when the player has a knowing grin, and cackles as they play it, and everyone groans and scoops so they can have their lulz. I ain't here to be part of your unannounced meme, I'm here to play Magic.
I run a Smothering Tithe in Kwain card draw group hug, its the only deck I run it in, and it is absolutely cracked in that list. I disclose it for that reason, not because it's merely a salty card but because it pulls a lot of extra duty in that list as well.
I'm in the habit of including duels (the versions that cost $0) in my Moxfield decks, and when I build them I have a set of proxies but most of those are in use so often they get skipped for another two color land. But I was kinda planning on printing a bunch of proxies so I didn't need to skip them. I guess I can mention them, but in my opinion they are just untapped with both land types... and that's just not so crazy better than the alternatives. But they are $$$ so I have seen the look that crosses folks eyes.
I always ask to make it simple do you run fast mana, tutors, or any combos. I mention sol ring is fast mana. That way I know if we are higher power or lower. The commander is also a huge giveaway of power as well.
To be fair Sol Ring is so common and printed it would be fair to assume every deck has it until proven otherwise. Then again watch as they say yes to all of that and their deck still is a very low power level and you still end up pubstomping them as believe it or not what should be rare cases happens because people don't know how to deck build properly.
I started keeping a sideboard of cards that can power up the deck or allow it to keep up with what others are playing if I feel that conversation before a game is leaning on the higher power level end of the scale or if I feel people are playing casually like I normally like to play I don’t side in those cards
I've been playing EDH for almost a year now and I remember saying at the beginiing how I found green ramp busted and, as a mono white enjoyer, I should be able to run Armageddon without being shunned by other players. "No you are insane" they told me... now everyone in my playgroup(s) is coming around and saying "you might be right". lol
Do you have a way of pulling ahead with your MLD, like Hazezon's recursion or by spamming rocks and dorks? If not, you're really doing nothing by wiping lands; a green deck recovers from zero lands faster than the other colors. I've had no problem dealing with green by taking advantage of their absolutely zero options against exile wipes. Farewell, Descend Upon The Sinful, Sunfall, all wreck green, and pretty much everyone not in Azorius.
@@ethanglaeser9239 It also unfairly punishes white because recovering from/punishing MLD is one of their things. Go ahead and cast some with a Karmic justice on the board or into a Faith's Reward, or Teferi's Protection. White enjoys to make wraths it plays or plays against it unsymmetrical.
@@robotov2334 Had this convo elsewhere earlier today. I think MLD works fine against green if you're also wiping away their engines. Don't leave them a bunch of draw or recursion engines (or, as you said, exile instead). Especially not something like an Oracle of Mul-Daya on the field. Armageddon by itself isn't going to cut it. Worldfire, on the other hand, probably will stop a lot of green decks in their tracks. Edit: Not to say Apocalypse is actually good. But a similar effect...
@@robotov2334 I play aggressive decks so if I get one early Armageddon down I'm happy as I can keep beating people down while they yet have to develope their boards.
I have a Tatyova, benethic druid deck and while the total of cost of cards excluding basic lands is $20 the deck takes massively long turns and probably is my most powerful deck. I always mention to people I'm going to be taking slow turns as the game goes on and I think it is really important to say even though it is full of theoretically low power cards.
It's reasonable to discuss the play experience of decks you might want to use, but individual cards? Nah, people whine too much about interaction and relatively tame control pieces because they want to go off without resistance
That's why, when people play a game and win without resistance, and then play a game and lost because their Commander was removed twice and don't have anything to stop the others, they start getting mad or sad because the deck "Don't run like they pretended". Ofc It won't because people have interaction and you don't. Always put at least 8/10 pieces of interaction in your decks
I’m one of those people who would love for someone to disclose if they have a cyclonic rift; not because I don’t expect interaction (I actually love it, makes games more interesting), but because it’s likely not the only crazy powerful card in the deck. My decks are budget decks, I can gladly sit out a game or go find a different table.
@billwibbly1492 That's why I always say I have a few hight power cards and name like 2-3 so people have an idea, it makes rule 0 quicker for a general idea if everyone goes round naming some big hitters it sets a good tone for the game or so people can change decks if needed
If I'm ever worried about power level, power creep, or if someone is playing proxies, I'll ask a player to disclose a few cards of interest. Depends on the deck and deck strategy what I'll ask about, but for the most part I'm not too worried about it. I've only ever asked those questions of newcomers to our pod who didn't give us honest vibes when talking about their deck.
So I've lately been proxying a lot of abu duals for my decks and I feel the reaction seems to change more to it just being a regular land...when people know it didn't cost me a bunch to put it in my deck, they seem to value it more accurately as just an untapped dual...while not everyone is open to using proxy's, I think it's interesting to note how players evaluate cards when the expensive price tag is removed...
I have trouble understanding why people think rule 0 conversations take too long. Its simple whose the commander combos or no combos and fast mana is all that really matters. If you dont want to have those conversations play with people that dont and vice versa. Not playing with people you dont like playing with is always an option too
Disclose enough about your deck and cards in the pre-game convo that your farewell does not become a farebad. A rule of thumb I use is what I would like to know before starting a game.
I disclose how fast my deck works. It encompasses a lot of those pregame disclosures. "Average i could win by turn X, magical christmas land i could win by turn Y"
I do have a deck that is a combo deck which has multiple types of infinite combos and is built around drawing and finding those pieces through non instant/sorcery means. Generally I will advise people that are unfamiliar with the deck that I have these infinite turn, combats and damage combos in the deck but will not disclose the specific cards I am using. After the game if I do run away with it I will retire the deck for a different one in my collection for additional games. After the game I will discuss some of the combos if they didn’t come up. And show off how the deck can win on turn 3 with a mostly specific draw (no tutors or non permanent courses of mana and no fast mana rocks)
I don't ask for power scale arbitrary numbers or if people feel like their decks are focused optimized competitive etc. Lately I just ask what your win condition is/are and what the generally viewed most powerful cards or salt inducing cards in their deck are to see if it's a game everyone wants to play. I recently built Mycotyrant and it's a very aggressively combo-y deck and playing it in general playgroups in the LGS has been rough. Nobody really has a problem with any individual cards but the pace of the deck and resilience makes finding fair matches hard sometimes so I always try to be super thorough in rule zero pregame talk
In my Pride of the Hull Clade deck "I Like Big Butts and I Cannot Lie", i run Thoracle, Jace Wielder of Mysteries, and Lab Man Ian Malcom edition because the point of the deck is to deck myself. So yeah i disclose that information. But the thing that really makes that deck hum are the Nyxbloom Ancient and Virtue of Strength that allows me to play the 30+ cards i just drew. Ive yet to smash someone in the face for 30 commander because of Zopandrel, but its definitely possible
on this topic, i really hate people who think they dont have to disclose their commander until a certain point (I should be seeing it before I make my mulligan decisions)
I'll say that I don't usually disclose infinite combos if my commander is part of the combo. Like, if you see me sit down with nivmizet, I'm almost certainly running combos, that's what that card does. If I'm playing chulane, I don't feel the need to be like "oh by the way, I'm playing aluren" because like, that's what that deck does (at least at the power level I'd bring my chulane deck out at.) I do sometimes disclose infinite combos in other decks though. Like I'll give the heads up that my random U/R wizards deck also will try and win by using narumeha and ghostly flicker because that's not going to be immediately obvious. Narumeha is good, she supports other cards in the deck, ghostly flicker is also pretty good, and has the added bonus of letting me just accidentally win the game if I get them at the right time.
Sol ring is the second best fast mana piece, so it seems weird to disclose other fast mana when it's already assumed that everyone will have one of the most efficient pieces of it already.
The only time I care about sharing my deck list with someone ahead of time is if there is a low number of face-down cards. One of my decks has Boltbender as the only face-down card, and if everyone knows exactly what it is ahead of time, it ruins my whole trick. I have all my deck lists on Archidekt, and I would have no problem letting anyone look through them before we played.
As far as board wipes go, I think that people need to realize that you have a 99 card deck. If you only have 2 boardwipes there is a very low probability that you see one every game, no matter how much card draw you have. At that point maybe you need to start questioning if having 2 or 0 makes more sense. When someone does cast a boardwipe it makes no difference to their opponents in that one game if they had 2 wipes and got lucky or had 6-8 so they could count on having one by a certain turn. There is also a lot of variance for opportunity cost in a deck; some decks might want to always have a wipe in their hand just in case and if they don't need it they can still get rid of it somehow with little to no cost and some decks might suffer more form a dead card. I think people need to keep this kind of stuff in mind if their eyes are bugging out when they hear how many board wipes someone has and are trying to use that number to gage what kind of game is being offered.
I think the biggest thing with the question about Tutors is whether you're running the infinite combos. Do I think I need to say that I have Eladamri's Call to go get Boromir to protect my table? No. Do I think I need to say that I have Idyllic and Enlightened Tutors to assemble my artifact or enchantment game-winning combo? I probably should.
Out of the top 100 saltiest cards I play is Teferis protection, Cyclonic Rift and Craterhoof. Some of those can just end games. Are those cards you think you should mention in rule zero? In the same vein should you mention Inkshield?
I think it depends on playgroup. We don't disclose ANYTHING and it's a constant case of "Surprise! Now do something about it.". Far from a bad thing because we would rather play against or around it instead of cry. I have absolutely no idea what a real Rule 0 discussion is aside from "I'm running ______ tonight."
I had a small infinite combo in one of my decks and hated what happened at the table when I would disclose it. Everyone would bring out their stronger deck. I've never pulled off my infinite and that deck was underpowered at those tables. I've since taken out the infinite and have had a much better time.
I rarely play with new people and my opponents know my decks.. price i dont mention but i would mention if theres 3 to 4 card combos.. transparency is key though
"I'm not doing infinites, winning out of nowhere, excessive wipes/mld, or stax". If that's disagreeable, I don't need whatever pod that could have been, and they should grow a pair.
I have a few decks that I consider it polite to warn people about at least the rough outline of what my deck is doing, not because the decks are especially good, it's because they often do things that are considered anti-social. The decks might feature stax, significant land destruction elements, or tons of wipes (or if you're really unlucky it's a deck with all of them!), if a deck's strategy involves making it hard for opponents to 'do their thing' it's probably going to be mentioned, though the first step is 'do you want any heads up about potential 'anti-social' elements?', I don't think you should just volunteer your deck's plan without prompting! I also have decks that don't run such cards, including decks that skimp (or skip) wipes and interactions (and use no stax), I think if you've got more than 2 or 3 decks some of them should be 'specialized' in some way, either so you can play with such like stax in a respectful manner, but also so you're prepared for groups where people don't want such things. Heck, sometimes I don't want to play a tedious stax/rack build and would rather play a straightforward deck that's all in on what it's on. I don't think you need to warn people about things that are 'power level' based concerns, IMHO you don't need to tell people about Mana Crypt or Sol Ring because you just don't run them in decks that aren't at least 7s. At 7 I think you could mention Crypt or Vault (or any Moxen that aren't Tantalites), but I wouldn't run those in a 7 personally, but if I have a Sol Ring in a 7 I probably won't mention it. If I snuck a Sol Ring into a 6 I think it should be mentioned, unless it's a precon (all precons have Sol Rings). For stuff like Cyclonic Rift, I wouldn't play it in anything less than an 8 (same with Rhystic Study), those cards are obnoxiously powerful and aren't enough mana for what they do (Rhystic Study is a MUCH better card than Smothering Tithe, but Tithe is 4 mana and forces you to play White, Study >>>>> Tithe), so if someone snuck them into a 7 I'd expect them to mention it (so I can bring my own more obnoxious deck). The Great Henge is probably in the 'you should mention this' if you've got it in a 7, but in an 8 I think that's expected. I don't think Dual Lands are problematic in the least, as long as you're not fetching them out somehow (and inevitably doing it preferentially). Fetches and OG duals are a HUGE power buff in Grixis and Esper. If you're running a Savanah in your Selesnya deck I'm probably not going to bat an eyelash, but if you've got 9 Fetches and the 3 OG duals in your Grixis deck I'm going to raise an eyebrow if you call your deck a 7.
What's the consensus on rituals? I used to think they were fine, esp in mono-color decks, but I've seen arguments as being similar to fast mana rocks. What about Jeska's Will & Mana Geyser -- okay in casual or pushing OP?
Something like Blood Moon doesn't need to be disclosed as long as it isn't being played in a non-trolly manner. If I want to run it in my mono-red burn deck then I likely won't disclose it. If it was in some kind of stax or control deck then yeah.
Me at casual FNM: "I might mulligan a bunch my mana base is a nightmare, I have so few basics that I basically scoop to blood moon" Opponent turn 3: "I play blood moon" I performatively got up and walked off, but returned, I happened to have one of my rare basics in play. Eventually solving the problem with a Birthing Pod that didn't need coloured mana, I had a two drop that lived long enough. My main enchantment removal is double white :/ I tend to tell people about my Krak Klan Ironworks deck, and make sure you have grave hate and always exile Nim deathmantle because its my combo enabler.
There’s a newer guy at my LGS who keeps playing decks with 8 board wipes and 15 counterspells. I’ve now built two decks specifically to play against him. “Oops all fireballs” and “You ain’t the boss of me” depending on whether I want to stop him or just not let him touch my board.
I don't run fast mana outside of Sol Ring, Mox Opal is in my Syr Gwyn voltron deck, but that's not even that important to the deck, it's just another land that I have laying around that I wanted in a deck, likewise, it doesn't do anything until at least turn 4. That being said, my Zangief deck has a few "problematic" cards, Jokulhops, Devastattion and Worldslayer, I do disclose it, and it usually ends the game when I play it. Zangief being indestructible makes it end quick, but those are 8+ mana and needs a lot of set up. No (intentional) infinite combos in my decks. Just so many cards syndergize and become infinite by accident.
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"So what's in your deck?"
"Black cards and swamps."
I kill my things so you don't have to.
"Turn one, swamp, sol ring"
"LIAR! LIARRRRR!"
I'm from a remote village and for a long time I had only 1 friend who played MTG with any kind of dedication. We both played legacy - I played white weenie and he played U/W control with Moat and Standstill. We couldn't really afford other decks (all though we did proxy up stuff occasionally). We must have pitted those decks against each others hundreds of times and some of those games were frustrating as hell. Having your entire board blanked by a Moat or getting every spell countered after having to trigger Standstill was not what I would describe as a fun experience. But that was the only MTG that was available for me - the other option was to go home and be bored. So I toughed it out.
Those games with my friend made me basically immune to any kind of frustration related to counterspells or lock pieces. When I look at some reactions that newer players have to getting their spells countered, I am absolutely baffled, as in my mind, counterspelling is just a very normal axis of interction within the game. I am thankful for the character building experience I had with my friend's U/W control as I feel like it has made me a much more chill person around the table😀
Yeah, I started playing during revised. Playing against and with stone rain was normal. I don't understand the aversion to land destruction as a means to counter ramp.
I wish there were more LD options like Keldon Firebombers. In multiplayer, I like the ones that drop people down to very few lands instead of just destroying all of them.
@@Sicktoid The thing with land destruction is that you better win that god damn turn because if I'm sitting there at the table for another 30 minutes with 2 lands because you couldn't close the game out after stopping me from playing entirely, you've wasted the valuable time in my day I took out to play a card game
@@thechikage1091yeah, man, it's not like you can concede or something
@@victorperezurbano9504 you're missing the point entirely. The point is for everyone to have fun. If your version of fun is winning by making everyone else not want to play against you, that is an incredible dig on your own character.
I think people don't disclose powerful or salty cards because they will get targeted out of the gate and become the archenemy for a card that is in their deck they might not even draw.
If you are scared of that then maybe you shouldn’t have the card in your deck
I guess but if I'm spending 2-3 hours playing with them, I'd rather know before hand, it's polite.
I think it's more that it's totally subjective based on your opponents and the list of cards people don't like is so large that disclosing cards would require just passing out a deck list
I agree with this, people are immature, especially the common tcg player. You say "hey my wincon is armageddon in my superfriends deck" and they go "oh you're playing armageddon in the deck? dead by turn 4" because they hate MLD that much.
I've watched an entire table force someone out of the game before they could even get going because that person was running a card everyone else didn't like in their deck. Not the commander, but inside the deck itself.
TLDR: TCG players are immature and can't handle the saltier cards in the game so they gang up on one player first just for having a salty card in their deck
Fuck that, disclosing cards in general just doesn’t make sense. Tbh I feel like way more players should adopt this: hate players, not cards. Don’t get focused on the cards that you don’t like to play against, learn to play with them and counter them. On the flip side, learn to hate players for being salty, making an objectively wrong play, being spiteful, etc. the only times when I get mad at magic are when people purposefully either throw the game or spite play people, not when I don’t like a certain card
Nice try Feds. I'm not telling you anything, and I'm still not paying taxes.
My first thought after hearing about Matt’s Chiropractor was “Man, the nerve of that guy…”
I’m sorry guys, I know I wasn’t breaking any new ground with that joke. Hopefully you all will adjust to it in time 🙃
He really should adjust the way he acts when on camera
They should show some backbone and kick Matt out for these jokes!
I thought "he must really get on Matt's nerves "
@@enoesiw at least Matt had some spine to call him out on the podcast 😜
"Are we going to get sweaty with each other?" is the worst thing I've heard today.
I disagree with having to disclose cyclonic rift, because knowing it’s available doesn’t change how you play the game. If a deck passes with 7 mana up, you know something is coming, and cyclonic rift is probably the least variable option in terms of “not playing around it” ; whether you know it’s coming or not, you end up in the same situation. This is different than something like ruination/Armageddon, where you might hold some extra lands or fetch differently, or infinite combos, where you’ll prioritize removing the individual pieces. If you are going to disclose cyc rift, or fast mana for that matter, its probably part of a power discussion like “This is a casual Dimir skeleton deck, but with some fast mana like crypt, and powerful interaction like cyc rift. It’s a seven 😅 “
Agreed. Expensive staples are something you express the budget of the deck, not the individual play style. Like if you have 10> worth 500
Ok cool but you all got it wrong about Crim! He is not the villain he is the hero. He is the guy who stops people from ramping to oblivion, drawing a million cards, casting game breaking spells.
100% the hero!
33:33 Making yourself the archenemy before even shuffling up is kinda detrimental to a EDH game, if you want to play Archenemy, play Archenemy.
If it's such a big deal, you'll just make yourself the archenemy once you play it, and that rush to cooperate to take down the strongest player with the resources that you collectively have is way more fun than just everyone holding back interaction from turn 1 on for when you try to do the thing. If it was that impactful and you won that game with it great but now its time for game two. Disclosing it right away is just depriving the former experience from happening at all and the "ticking time bomb" still exists every other game that you play with that deck.
45:40 You can always just not play that Armageddon, or tutor for not the other piece of your combo if their experience is more important than playing to win the game, but also like I expect everyone to play to win the game and others to expect the same so when someone plays a cards that furthers their gameplan then others can't rightfully be upset if you do play that Armageddon.
Yeah, tried my Myra Deck one Time against stronger Decks and well, i got the Lotus Turn 1 and what happened, my commander got removed before i could cast any Spell and until i yould recast him the game was over, sure expensiv Cards can make your Deck stronger but, if it`s depending on the Commander, mostly then they are weaker
For your first point: It's a double edged issue. On one hand, if you disclose it's as you said, you haven't done anything but everyone's out to get you and you have three people piling on and it's tough to deal with. But on the other hand, if you don't disclose it, to everyone else you likely aren't having that big an impact on the game, maybe played a few draw value pieces, maybe a pillowfort piece, stuff that makes folks go "I'll deal with them later", only to all of a sudden declare the game is over, not only unsatisfying due to its suddenness but also because of the lack of counterplay opportunities, because the only way to counterplay it would be to either know beforehand or to just guess and focus them out on an assumption, which leads to either the first scenario mentioned or worse takes out someone that was playing a slower jank deck for the crimes of combo decks.
EDH games take a long time and I don't think it reasonable for someone to play an entire game against it just to be prepared for next time, assuming you ever even play against them again and with the same deck and they remember what happened last time. That's what the disclosure is about, so folks can know upfront rather than learn 30+ minutes later "Oh by the way this is a combo deck and you should've held up a counter but 'cause you didn't know because I intentionally didn't tell you you lose"
@@Tuss36 Well a control player not being able to prevent an unprotected otk is misplay most of the time that or they jout of resources from preventing the previous player form comboing off.
I don't think of EDH as a new player format magic is daunting enough without adding in singleton, 100 card decks, and 2 more opponents, so I presume that the control player has above average threat assessment and doesn't just ignore the player durdling with a deck they haven't played against before but doesn't seem to be trying to play a control deck either....
Maybe that's my experience and perhaps you play EDH with lots of new players with unpowered precons and enjoy showing the plays you can make even if they don't come up in the game so that they can learn. That's cool too.
If I have to disclose my blood moon, the landfall player has to dis-close his deck and put it away
Came here to say the same thing about Eldrazi decks and stax
Ayye, they can disclose that deck right up and pick a different one lol
My view on Blood Moon.
If I have to disclose it, it is a dead card in my deck.
I don't play Blood Moon because the players I face are barely affected by it. Their decks contain enough basics to make Blood Moon a minor annoyance rather than a stax piece. Now, the table hates me, and they have the mana to cast their spells to kill me.
If Blood Moon isn't a dead card, the power level is high enough to not need a warning.
I’ve seen Bloodmoon do nothing some games, and also completely shut down individual players in others. I can’t say whether or not someone should need to say they are playing Bloodmoon, but being aware of how heavily it could impact someone’s experience is something to consider.
People freak about blood moon but don't care anything about Grand Arbiter Augustine IV, Ghostly prison, Windborn Muse, or any of the other normal Stax pieces, which are more of a universal "you cannot play the game" type effect. Not just "oh no, 3 of my 6 lands are red now".
I like the way CovertGoBlue's Worst Possible show does their rule 0 convo. They show the scariest thing their decks can do. Never hurts the game. Makes it more dramatic when a combo piece hits the table.
Love their channel.
The Worst Possible is such a great intro
I am surprised to realise, that I don't care for most of these to be disclosed.
Fast mana, expensive cards, infinite combos even with tutors. Have them, idc.
But pls let me know whether I get to play magic or not.
Do you run mass discard / narset wheel? Or MLD? Karn great creator, 3feri, extra turns loop without instant win con?
Bcs then I want to make sure to leave the table in time.
I do like the idea of disclosing 3 emblematic cards for everyone though!
I have a deck that's designed to surprise kill out of nowhere, but generally can only kill one player and can't usually put up much of a defense once I pop off, so I'll almost always die on the crackback. I don't disclose that my wincon is infect, but I do disclose that it can surprise kill out of nowhere, but generally doesn't win, despite popping off.
I really like having a deck that is so surprising, but I also struggle to balance that line of surprising my pod but not making them salty. I'm convinced that you can't balance that on a first play with a group. After I've played with a people a few times, it's fun to pull out, but I've decided I like to get comfortable with a group before playing anything that intentionally surprises anyone.
I'd rather see a deck that combos and ends the game than takes one person out, shuffling up feels less bad than two people dying and the 1v1 taking an extra 40 mins
@@egoish6762 I agree. That's why I've stopped running it with new pods. It's just not cool to do something like that unless you know the group will be okay with it.
In general I disagree that you need to announce cards specific cards as long you you communicate power level. Cards like cyclonic rift or great hedge don’t need to be disclosed. Fast mana shouldn’t be played in casual unless everyone knows that is the power level and they are also playing it. Everything else I don’t think you should have to disclose. If you are playing something really good or really provocative you should be playing at a table that is high power enough people are not surprised.
I dont think people need to disclose every card in their deck but should give people an idea of how it plays / power level. I play a 800$ strefan deck after cutting my Badlands. Has the one ring and jeweled lotus but its strictly combat focused, pure vampire tribal, not etb / death triggers/ pinging like crazy with blood tokens entering.
Is 9 counters really that bad, how many pieces of removal do most decks run? Like 15... So a mono blue deck using counters as their only protection spells and only removal spells then it is actually a lot less than most decks run - but still feels more salty somehow
bold of you to assume the average edh player runs 15 pieces of removal
@@norpoop I mean, there's a lot of removal spells out there. In my decks I usually include the "best" ones for the colors I'm running plus any that are playable and synergistic with what my deck wants to do. Sometimes that's 15, sometimes it's 10, but it's almost never less than that.
No, commander players are just very soft
I play blue. I’d rather not run that many counters. Need me some redirects to two for one my opponents spot removal. Counters are for protecting your board from wipes and protecting your game winning play. Countering a non-threat is a waste and only serves to generate hate for you
One thing to consider is that counterspells will stop things that have ETB effects whereas other removal happens after the ETB triggers go on the stack. For example, countering a dockside will completely throw off that players plans for the turn. But they're also playing dockside and deserve it.
It's truely a delight when all 3 of you are in the video together
We are slowly getting more and more dad jokes until eventually the whole show will just be dad jokes 😂
TIL Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood alone doesn't turn a lifegain deck into a combo deck.
It’s same way that deck with 10 instant / sorceries isn’t automatically a spellslinger deck 😀
There's a distinction between "combo deck" and "deck with a combo". In a combo deck, the combo is *the point*. Some folks told synergistic combos in decks just because games have to end eventually. I have several decks that contain infinites and win often, but have never won *with the combo*.
I had a guy once refuse to mention his decks powerlevel / wincon but mentioned "but it does run infinite combos..." so we all took out our strongest decks.
Turned out he was playing a lifegain deck with sanguine bond + exquisite blood. It wasn't powerful at all... He did not have a good time.
Maybe you weren't listening to what they said? I have a janky Kambal consul of allocations deck that's enchantment tribal. It's *really* bad but it does have bloodbond. If I draw it, I probably win. If I don't, it's just a normal drain deck.
@@davidrosenberg9615 I think the distinction is that either piece of the combo works with the rest of a lifegain deck. If you resolve a Sanguine Bond in a lifegain deck then it's just a way to do more damage. Exquisite blood triggers all the lifegain payoffs.
Whereas Thassa's Oracle is just a merfolk with a bit of card draw unless a library is pretty deliberately emptied. Demonic Consultation without Thassa's Oracle or other empty-library payoff is just a hugely risky tutor that's probably not worth running.
I don't feel that Cyclonic Rift needs to be forewarned. It's a piece of interaction, albeit a very good one. If someone is in blue, I assume they're playing Rift. That said, I should share it anyways because not everyone shares my views.
This is why, in the absence of an archenemy, we simply hate out the blue deck first.
It really depends on relative budget levels. While Rift is a no-brainer include, there are a lot of players out there who don’t have the budget for a single card worth 40 bucks. So just as a point of courtesy, ask for budget levels, and if anyone’s below 200 or so, just bring it up.
@@granite_4576 That's silly to me. I've seen degenerate stuff done in every single color. Most folks just get big feelings from losing to control. I don't mind it, different play styles make for a healthy metagame.
It's 7 mana card that basically is a "wincon-enabler" if the table is playing a battlecruiser meta and are currently at a stalemate, and you already have a good boardstate. The card hasn't been "too powerful" in years. Most often I see rift being kind of a "time rewind" effect, if the player casting it doesn't close the game after casting rift.
There are definitely some ubiquitous cards that annoy me, but yeah, announcing to me before the game that you're running dockside/rhystic/smothering/Narset is more of a gesture. Yes, this is the state of even the casual meta, and you're gonna be running some cards I don't like- but it is ultimately still on me to not react in a way that is too sour. I like to have different experiences in every game and not everyone shares that sentiment, but I do have full control over the cards that I am running.
Personally it feels like it can warp the game in a bad way. I understand trying to avoid salt but when you're able to shortcut threat assessment and saving your removal for win cons that get explained in rule 0, that feels wrong. If you're disclosing just themes, that's very different. You aren't making players focus on specific cards. I guess if everyone gains the advantage it's okay; but, I feel it really changes how people interact and will only try to interact with the combo/winning lines of play. It really hurts how to assess threats properly. I've seen it also cause a ton of salt and aggravation when you win in a different way than stated in the rule 0. Like I say I win with craterhoof but then end up killing people with a bunch of Angels from Divine Visitation it produces some really wierd amounts of salt. I think it's better to get a general power level and don't bring in other expectations that can warp the game in a way that ends up promoting bad game play and poor expectations.
We also need to destigmatize $$=Power. It's simply not true. Dual Lands especially, the money put into them versus the payoff is not worthwhile.
100% agree. Communicate general power level and don’t play something that obviously outmatches everyone. I don’t think you have to say specific cards unless you are playing something you shouldn’t be for the power level like a crypt against low power decks.
While I'm not sure I'm in agreement on your primary point, I definitely agree that cost should suggest power, not dictate it, is the minds of players, especially where lands are concerned.
I kinda feel like pointing to dual lands in EDH as your example for that point doesn’t do a good job of describing your point.
I don’t have an issue with you playing a bunch of duals rather than Shocks. I might have an issue with your deck being packed with Mana Crypt/Jeweled Lotus/Rest of the $$ Fast Mana.
Heh, I *wish* people announced running Farewell. Would make the, “Am I out for Orzhov or Esper blood first?” calls much, *much* easier. Stupid card should do *one* mode of choice for 6 CMC, or just be an 8 CMC mega-spell.
I feel like holding removal for just the game winning threats would be stifling your strength in its own way, letting opponents do whatever hoping for the "real" threat to come down, only for it not to and you've lost because you were holding out for a threat that never came.
@@Tuss36 You're not incorrect, but OP was more concerned about what happens to players 2, 3, and 4's overall gameplay experience when player 1 spends all game holding onto a removal spell for player 2's rumored win condition. Player 1's bad that assessment leading to player 1 losing the game is a normal part of the game. It's when it leads to other players kissing the game along with them that people get surly.
Everything in this video, taken on its own, seems reasonable enough. And there are so many conditionals and caveats sprinkled throughout that I could scarcely find fault in it. Fair enough.
I worry that casual EDH, or at least a growing subset of casual EDH, is afflicted with a kind of etiquette creep. Etiquette bloat? Whichever. I was drawn to this format because it presented an open field where I might actually get to play with fun and quirky cards I remember from my youth, especially ones that could never make the cut in Legacy or other formats. That's not to say it's ALL about nostalgia for me. I enjoy new stuff too, especially if I can find a way to put a unique twist on something. But I played a lot of multiplayer Magic in the late 90's and early 00's, and I can't shake the sense that if someone like me had fallen out of the hobby and was only coming back to it now, there'd be layers of social expectations, proscriptions, and norms that would seem bizarre. Pregame discussions? Taboo cards that aren't actually banned? Salt scores? Expectations that should only concede during certain windows of time? Cards you should disclose? I'm not trying to be a curmudgeon here. I'm not saying don't do any of these things. It's just, man, that's a lot. We can see that it's a lot, right? And it seems like the list is only growing. For a fun, casual format, how many things that aren't even part of the game itself do you want to add as meta-gameplay? Because if it's just a couple of things, I'd think reasonable folks would probably try to accommodate those things. But it sure seems like we're approaching, um, something. Etiquette overload? I don't know...
It's overkill is what it is. I'm all for being polite and accommodating but holy cow, I just wanna play man, not have a six hour rule 0 convo before we play. The most I do is tell people what my deck is built to do if they ask. And if they want to look through my deck before hand than so be it. But disclosing multiple cards off the top of my head before hand cause someone MIGHT have beef with it? That's overboard. However I assume this is for a more casual pod than the ones I'm apart of. I play with anything goes and all playstyles are welcome as long as it's legal so talks of "salty" cards before hand isn't even in our wheelhouse. We take our commanders out, put em on the table and go to town. And we all have a hell of a time in the process.
To top it off, new players are expected to know all of this before playing. I've seen groups get mad at new players because they didn't and it's rather ridiculous.
We really need a ban list and if it's not on the banlist, you can play it. It's not healthy for the format to make up all these pretty dumb "etiquette" rules and expect every person to follow them and if one is broken, throw a tantrum or ridicule the person that may not have even broken it on purpose. I know they talk about EDH players aren't the ego maniacs like they said in the podcast but physically seeing it says otherwise.
@@chriselliott5539 Content creators trying to to dictate player behavior and a good chunk of the community just accepting it as the norm is kind of the problem.
Some guy is gonna show up to an FNM and probably get shit on because he didn’t tell announce a piece of fast mana.
I agree. With so many things to talk about beforehand, I'd rather play Catan or something.
It seems like a lot when you list it out like that, but most of what it comes down to is "be considerate of the time the other people are spending with you to play this game." A lot of these kinds of cards that are centered in this convo are certain types of stax pieces or non-deterministic infinites that drag out games and slow them to a crawl.
I'm an adult with a life outside of the silly card game that I very much love dearly. I only have so much time to play and I want to play as much as possible in that time. There are types of themes where the strategy is preventing the other players from playing the game, and I think those themes generally make for exhausting games that drain my energy.
>i would like you to tell me that youre running this amount of boardwipes so i can target you first
Didnt you *just* say that telling people about your deck shouldnt influence how often you win with it
When you mentioned chaos decks on spelltable it reminded me -
In the past 6 months, I've played something like 3 games in person, and everything else has been on spelltable, and that has impacted the way that I build. I have a Tasha deck that I was in the middle of assembling, and I don't know if I'm going to finish getting the cards together because it's the kind of deck that I only would want to play in person.
The only things I want to know about is chaining extra turns, mld, $$$ fast mana, two card combos, and free counterspells.
Huh... I guess that is a lot lol
That's actually a very good gauge of what kind of deck it will be
These are the things I consider on the power level of my deck and that’s a critical part of turn zero conversation. That said I never disclose SPECIFIC cards, just categories of cards as to not give things away.
I sidestep all complaints about power level questions by just handing my deck to any other players and giving them permission to examine the whole thing. Since what is objectionablr is highly dependant on who objects, I cut out all middlemen
I've built a rogue tribal mill deck around Anowon the Ruin Thief, but I haven't gotten to play it at full power yet. I haven't found a table that's willing to have it as arch enemy thus far. 🤷♂️
I like watching spike feeders cedh games because they state how all their decks go for the win. Because if you want it to be a surprise thats great but what about the second game? Do people just never play those decks with the same people?
This is what Rule 0 should be. Trying to quantify power on a scale is completely subjective and useless, as is saying what your deck costs (for the most part). Rule 0 should be identifying key cards in your deck to give people the closest idea to what their subjective view of your decks power is. If you call your deck a 6 but you say you have mana crypt in it, people will automatically bump that to an 8.
TLDR; let's change Rule 0 convos to "here's some of the good cards im playing in this deck and here's my strategy"
no, part of the fun in playing magic is figuring out your opponent's deck the first time you play it, or even the first few times and figuring out an answer.
Rule 0 in general sucks dick, whole concept is stupid af
@@ceroluthor in theory yes. In practice when everyone subjectively states what their deck power is and then plays a card outside of peoples perception, salt ensues. Literally just saw this exact thing over an undisclosed jeweled lotus in a casual pod
@@ceroluthor *competitive Magic
FIFY
@@MEver316 all magic on some level is competitive, the competitive levels is why power levels exist. at the end of the day someone is trying to win otherwise magic would be incredibly boring
as one who just finnished building a chaos deck, I try and make the pregame convo pretty clear and i give the option for players to leave if they dont want to participate in at at any point in the game and when i can cast effects like warp world and theives auction i ask before i cast those effects.
but, playing a chaos deck over spelltable, that is a huge level of Chaotic EVIL lol
I have a morph deck and a mill-theft that arent that powerful, but i know people dont like to play against them very often so i almost never play them if it is the first game with strangers, or against new players.
And i avoid playing without letting ppl know or asking what they think about the strategy.
I think it is good to talk about strategies
Edit: oh, i had to rewritte this bc i missclicked and forgot to add that both are decks i just never wanted to play on spelltable (i tried once with each and the experience was bad not only for the table, but for me as well)
The problem with this is when you disclose things you run the person will just likely run the deck that counters what you are doing
Doesn't your commander give it away?
In general, why not have everyone select their decks and then in the pre-game discussion disclose anything that really needs disclosure?
That way if people aren't cool with what you are running, you get the option to change decks knowing what else is at the table, rather than everyone reacting by picking decks with that info in mind. Just an idea.
I only really see people swap when the discussion shows that they are about to get hard countered, I have a kibo deck that goes hard in the artifact hate direction, and I understand when the artifact or voltron commander doesn't wanna play their deck versus that
If someone does that, then you don't have to start that game. I don't think people are just eager to run a deck that counters specific strategies...
@@VexylObby you need to get out more then
Only deck I really run Approach in is Elminster.
It's literally the perfect thematic wincon for the deck, high cost reduced by Elminster, scry to the card and costreduce it again to cast for the win.
I'm not mystical tutoring for it or anything, but it is one of the few solid wincons in the deck, and if I did disclose it I'd probably win a lot fewer games.
That said, it fits so well with the deck thematically that I've never had a problem with it, even at lower power levels.
Every single Azorius deck that is not tribal/midrange should run Approach. Azorius is the worst two color combination for winning a game, because It has no real wincons apart from Approach or weird three/four card combos. Approach makes the game "faster" because you know that, once is first casted, the game will end quickly unless you kill that player, who is usually the control player.
@@Controlqueen31 azorius is bad at winning games because azorius players fill their deck with control pieces. You could build a creature based azorius deck that uses blue for tempo plays and countering board wipes and white for creature synergies and token generators and then you win with overrun and anthem effects, if you wanted to, but no one does, its always control/stax.
@@soleo2783the deck you're describing is a tribal deck, like spirits or humans. That's all. Azorius doesn't have overrun effects and most anthems are pretty lame.
I would be delighted to see wotc give us other tools, but they have other priorities, like giving Naya a thousand more fun commanders.
@@StoneSourFanBoy doesnt need to be tribal, nothing i described necessitates a certain creature type. And yes, azorius does have overrun effects, because mono-white has overrun effects, in fact it has probably the best one before craterhoof, moonshaker cavalry, and then there's Akroma's will, akroma's memorial, etc etc. If you have a board state and arent just casting it cuz you can, cyclonic rift is also diy evasion, just add an anthem on top of it or smth and youre good.
@@soleo2783 I was waiting for the moonshaker or the akroma's, but those are not part of a strategy, they can go in pretty much any deck with white that goes wide. We could even say that they are better in non azorius decks because we have a lot of flyers in these.
The only thing that is close to an azorius overrun is the mkm card pumping our team for each card we draw. Which is not really an azorius strategy.
If we have to rely on 4 cards that are the same for each deck or on Aoe that can clear the way just to go through, nothing makes that playstyle an azorius way of doing it. The same way a craterhoof is not a gruul way to win games, but they have other options, other game plans, and benefit from a good commander diversity.
This is some dang good advice. I especially like the part about just letting folks know what kind of game they're getting into, as I agree it's much more easily digestible if knowing up front. It's like how you wouldn't just dump Planechase or the secret role variant in the middle of the game. Heck, even stuff like silver border 99% of folks are okay with, but just want a heads up first, as it rubs the wrong way otherwise, like you're taking advantage of folks or making the decision for them.
I find it better if players can tell me the theme of their deck, if they take long turns(or similar) and by what turn they can consistently win
This is the way. Anything else encourages whinging from the soft players.
The consistently win part is hard to tell as in real games people don't really keep track of their turns unless not playing casual plus it is hard to say when you consistently win in actual live games since there is interaction. Let's also not forget that there are a lot of times that people build decks and never played them before so they go to test them out against real people as there is no telling on when it would consistently win. The only thing gold fishing does is let you know if you are mana screwed and need to fix the mana base as without the RNG of real people using their interaction there is no way to tell what turn you consistently win on.
Dana Roach continues to be incredibly worthy of his fitting name
>i win 70% of my games
>I insist that everyone tell me all.about their deck and how to counter them before every game
Typical.
Totally vibing with the intro this episode. Cracked me up properly!
Man, I never wanted children before. But I have 4 x EDH decks, and 2 x Modern decks I really need to resleeve soon.
I guess my partner and I better have another discussion about it!
Zur's Weirding holds games hostage. A guy in our pod has a grixis chaos deck and he dropped a Zur's Warding on us turn 3. One player never got above 3 lands since every land he drew got discarded by it. Eventually only the lifegian player was able to draw cards but it really warped the game. We banned it in our pod after that
oh! i have zur's weirding in my grixis chaos, and never thought about using it in that way. thanks!
Disclosure of mana rocks is weird to me given that it's almost implied every commander deck is already playing fast mana (sol ring)
There's a world of difference between a precon with a $1 Sol Ring and a CEDH deck with thousands of dollars of fast mana rocks. Running any of the main fast mana rocks beyond Sol Ring is generally a signpost of a deck optimized for power and utilizing a much higher than average budget. Disclosing this can help make sure people are playing at a similar level and one person isn't just pubstomping a casual table.
@coreyroberson4550 fast mana rocks are still fast mana rocks and just because sol ring cost $1 doesn't make it any less of a fast mana rock. Do you think sol ring would get the pass if instead mana crypt was instead the card reprinted to hell and back and sol ring stayed at it pre commander pricing?
@@sam7559 Sol Ring was $7 pre-commander, so not a huge issue. Granted, it is treated as an exception because it's in every precon and a ton of decks. But again, one single card vs a bunch of them says something about the deck. As does the amount of money invested. A $30 deck is not the same as a $3,000 deck. Disclosing that your deck is optimized for power and speed helps set a better expectation and makes sure people are going in looking for the same type of game.
I'm sure many people whining about mana Crypt wouldn't do so if they opened one
When did the format become this? I can understand “hey guys, just so you know i’m playing stax”, but the examples given here are making out that the bad guy has to disclose “hey guys, I have some ramp and removal and a wincon”.
I have two playgroups in different towns and the whole pregame discussion is “I’m playing superfriends”, “cool, I’ve got dragons”, “aight, I’m on landfall”
For me its not about surprising anyone, but giving away too much info has definatley impacted my play and my experience. Ive seen personally how bad an experience it creates for myself. Ive noticed that if i disclose info like this people will sandbag interaction and/or removal JUST for what ive disclosed. Then at that point im not getting to play the game that i want either and end yp feeling pressured to not play those decks or cards.
I have a Tergrid in one of my decks. I will never play the creature side, and I tell everyone that at the begining but I still get killed off first every time.
Just stop telling them. At a certain point your own fun is at stake also.
Are you really playing Tergrid for the backside? What's the use of that?
@@Blacklodge_Willy Tergrid's Lantern + infinite mana = win con.
People are usually way more afraid of the unknown, rather of a deck that is completely revealed beforehand. Most of us just picture the worst case scenario when can't prove otherwise. So I would argue being so upfront on the pregame discussion is actually a tactical advantage.
I usually get my face broken by decks that I don't expect to be that good because the player explains to me what the deck does and I'm like "Ok, responsable". And then they proceed to do cool thing and I'm like "So that's what you were talking about..."
I have a challenge the stats pick that absolutely blows my mind: Saw in Half only appears in 5% of Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager decks, when it is an abolute all-star in mine whenever i play it.
We choose our decks in secret before we start so no one can pick one that just beats another one
Giving people a heads up that you're playing a certain strategy, such as mass land destruction, makes sense in a casual setting. Announcing a card (or cards) merely due to their value, seems a bit silly.
"Hey, guys. I just want to let you know I'm playing a foil Masterpiece Sol Ring."
Disingenuous argument. Its not an issue if value its power. Which typically go hand in hand but you being cheeky with a masterpiece argument is totally off base
I tend to let people know if the base value of the cheapest card in my deck is over like 40 or 50 bucks, like Doubling Season. The art on the card means little. Remember that the most expensive magic card ever traded was used as a treasure token in a game on youtube.
If someone is playing a combo deck with fast mana or MLD, I just have to focus them first and close my eyes to anything the other opponents are doing. Those kinds of decks just win "out of nowhere" and if I don't have counter spell mana open always on from turn 2, I have low chances of winning. So it skews the table dynamic way too much for it to be much fun. But as long as everyone on the table understands that this games is arch enemy from turn 1, it's good stuff.
@@breakingtide
I wrote that something is "silly."
You called it a "Disingenuous argument."
We might not be on the same page here. Should we have a Turn Zero Conversation...about this Turn Zero Conversation?
Quickest way to avoid salty players is simply to play less often. People are far less whiny when you stay home and play video games.
@EDHREcast Not sure the best way to let y'all know but the recording on Spotify is missing some of the recording. It cuts out before the fast mana section and jumps to challenging the stats.
a card liek thoracle in one context is very different than in another
like a turn 2 combo win is very different than playing it in inalla becuase you pulled it from a pack and liked the art and it happened to be a wizard. (like my friend did, 6 months into his magic career, before he knew what cedh was, and got bullied for it. becuase it was a cool card that was a wizard in a wizard deck. that he had 0 clue about the combo implications)
This sort of thing is why I like CGB’s approach to the Rule 0 conversation. Jumping straight to the “worst possible” will often cover a lot of these things without anyone feeling like they’re being forced to mention cards in their deck ahead of time purely to avoid negativity from other players. It makes the conversation a dare to your opponents to stop you, and if they don’t think they can, this might be a poor matchup.
Also, on Dana’s comment about density of an effect (e.g. tutors) mattering, some of those effects don’t need many copies to alter how the deck plays. I have a Goblin deck that I built to be a Matt Morgan-style aggressive deck, but I included a 3-piece infinite combo as a way to just end long games or get around the players running 10 board wipes (also, all of the pieces are just fine cards in that deck). Thing is, all of the combo pieces are goblins, and I also run Goblin Matron, Boggart Harbinger, and Goblin Recruiter. In playing the deck, I found that the mere presence of those 6 cards (3 tutors and the combo) incentivizes me to play the deck as a combo deck instead of an aggro deck.
Ok, can we just say that Joey won the long game.for this episode? "But maybe the rain..."
In the theme of chaos/hand disruption I would like to shout out Head Games as a card that might need a mention. This is my favourite pet card that starts in almost every black deck I build before inevitably being cut for being over costed and a little narrow.
As the newer releases have more and more bonkers legends I struggle to keep up with the value engines and power houses.
As such I turn to obscure mass removal spells, stealing and stax to even the playing field.
So I find this highly relevant.
Transparency is the simplest courtesy that leads to better table experience. It's a card game, we are humans
You aren't wrong. It doesn't feel good to smash people into oblivion if they can't fight back.
@@xaxscratchxax926 Agreed. Feels great when everyone is smashing each other equally in good humor xD
Nah! We've got mass land destruction, Stax, counter spell tribal, eldrazi / sliver, mill, theft, infinite combos and any other form of salt inducing cards imaginable in my playgroup. It's fun to surprise people with something evil and once you get used to that sort of thing you can have more fun when those situations arise.
I disclose any cards in my deck that are within the EDHREC Top #100 most salty cards listing as well as # of fast mana and tutors or the presence of infinite combos. That said, I feel there's no such thing as preventing 100% of feelsbad for your opponent, a large part of that is up to your opponent though, I can only babyproof things so much.
Gosh literally this past week at my LGS, I asked the group I was playing with what general power level everyone was going for and everyone was saying just mid power level. Then one of the guys there proceeded to pull out some infinite combos, fast mana, and sweep the rest of the table. Definitely wouldve chosen a different deck had they disclosed that was the lind of deck they were going for.
Also with approach of the second sun and other alternate win cons, I don't care too much when they come out. I have approach in my alibou deck, but I normally mention I have alt Win cons when I usually play a Millennium Calendar turn one
I mean if someone's going to lie about being mid power level when they're running infinites and fast mana there's really nothing stopping them from just lying in a more detailed pregame discussion. This whol system breaks down if someone's lying but that's why we don't play with those people.
Just because a person plays fast mana and some infinite combos doesn't mean their deck isn't mid. This is where variance comes into play, maybe they drew a god hand.
If I run a janky Zubera deck, glue it together with fast mana, and happen to have an infinite combo in the deck to make Zuberas even work, it could very well be a 5/10 on average. But if I hit a 1% starting hand having all my best pieces, it will seem overpowered when in reality a single counterspell could've pushed it back down into unplayable territory.
@oelboy given we were playing with a player who was playing a precon, the rest of the table seemed like they were going for lower mid level. The amount of high impact cards the player had in their deck really felt like they just failed to read what everyone else was going for. Like I said, would've chosen a different deck had I known more about what their deck was about so it wasn't such a blowout : P
To be fair your mid power level is different from everyone's else's. I could probably tell you now my Mid would probably be your Competitive because i don't see fast mana and some infinite combos to be all that bad
interesting convo. I ran into this awhile ago. The things I try to disclose are fast mana, if I'm running any infinites and MLD. I personally love Stax and won't play at tables that frown upon any version of stax.
I have a mono red Daretti deck that is a dedicated combo deck. I absolutely let the table know by saying "Hey, I'm gonna be doing some busted things that may or may not include destroying or stealing all your permanents, and I fully expect to be the bad guy." That's fun to me. What I won't say is "the deck is built around this exact card. ".
This isn't a hard and fast rule to live by but i think the way to tell if a card should be announced is if you can tell the owner was putting it in the deck saying "Oh man, everybody is gonna hate this" vs. "Oh man this is gonna be a great synergy with the rest of my deck".
There is zero chance that anyone putting a Winter Orb in their deck is wondering what the reaction will be when they play it.
Farewell can be annoying but it can also be barely more than Austere command in certain scenarios. Blood Moon could have little to no effect depending on the pod. They aren't at the point of being universally recognized as a "Jesus christ why are you playing that" type card.
You can always tell when its that kind of card when the player has a knowing grin, and cackles as they play it, and everyone groans and scoops so they can have their lulz.
I ain't here to be part of your unannounced meme, I'm here to play Magic.
I run a Smothering Tithe in Kwain card draw group hug, its the only deck I run it in, and it is absolutely cracked in that list. I disclose it for that reason, not because it's merely a salty card but because it pulls a lot of extra duty in that list as well.
I'm in the habit of including duels (the versions that cost $0) in my Moxfield decks, and when I build them I have a set of proxies but most of those are in use so often they get skipped for another two color land. But I was kinda planning on printing a bunch of proxies so I didn't need to skip them. I guess I can mention them, but in my opinion they are just untapped with both land types... and that's just not so crazy better than the alternatives. But they are $$$ so I have seen the look that crosses folks eyes.
I always ask to make it simple do you run fast mana, tutors, or any combos. I mention sol ring is fast mana. That way I know if we are higher power or lower. The commander is also a huge giveaway of power as well.
To be fair Sol Ring is so common and printed it would be fair to assume every deck has it until proven otherwise. Then again watch as they say yes to all of that and their deck still is a very low power level and you still end up pubstomping them as believe it or not what should be rare cases happens because people don't know how to deck build properly.
I started keeping a sideboard of cards that can power up the deck or allow it to keep up with what others are playing if I feel that conversation before a game is leaning on the higher power level end of the scale or if I feel people are playing casually like I normally like to play I don’t side in those cards
I've been playing EDH for almost a year now and I remember saying at the beginiing how I found green ramp busted and, as a mono white enjoyer, I should be able to run Armageddon without being shunned by other players. "No you are insane" they told me... now everyone in my playgroup(s) is coming around and saying "you might be right". lol
I am starting to believe in the LD meta... and I kind of want to specifically not announce it to the table because screw lands.
Do you have a way of pulling ahead with your MLD, like Hazezon's recursion or by spamming rocks and dorks? If not, you're really doing nothing by wiping lands; a green deck recovers from zero lands faster than the other colors.
I've had no problem dealing with green by taking advantage of their absolutely zero options against exile wipes. Farewell, Descend Upon The Sinful, Sunfall, all wreck green, and pretty much everyone not in Azorius.
@@ethanglaeser9239 It also unfairly punishes white because recovering from/punishing MLD is one of their things. Go ahead and cast some with a Karmic justice on the board or into a Faith's Reward, or Teferi's Protection. White enjoys to make wraths it plays or plays against it unsymmetrical.
@@robotov2334 Had this convo elsewhere earlier today. I think MLD works fine against green if you're also wiping away their engines. Don't leave them a bunch of draw or recursion engines (or, as you said, exile instead). Especially not something like an Oracle of Mul-Daya on the field. Armageddon by itself isn't going to cut it. Worldfire, on the other hand, probably will stop a lot of green decks in their tracks.
Edit: Not to say Apocalypse is actually good. But a similar effect...
@@robotov2334 I play aggressive decks so if I get one early Armageddon down I'm happy as I can keep beating people down while they yet have to develope their boards.
I have a Tatyova, benethic druid deck and while the total of cost of cards excluding basic lands is $20 the deck takes massively long turns and probably is my most powerful deck. I always mention to people I'm going to be taking slow turns as the game goes on and I think it is really important to say even though it is full of theoretically low power cards.
It's reasonable to discuss the play experience of decks you might want to use, but individual cards? Nah, people whine too much about interaction and relatively tame control pieces because they want to go off without resistance
That's why, when people play a game and win without resistance, and then play a game and lost because their Commander was removed twice and don't have anything to stop the others, they start getting mad or sad because the deck "Don't run like they pretended". Ofc It won't because people have interaction and you don't. Always put at least 8/10 pieces of interaction in your decks
I’m one of those people who would love for someone to disclose if they have a cyclonic rift; not because I don’t expect interaction (I actually love it, makes games more interesting), but because it’s likely not the only crazy powerful card in the deck. My decks are budget decks, I can gladly sit out a game or go find a different table.
@billwibbly1492 That's why I always say I have a few hight power cards and name like 2-3 so people have an idea, it makes rule 0 quicker for a general idea if everyone goes round naming some big hitters it sets a good tone for the game or so people can change decks if needed
If I'm ever worried about power level, power creep, or if someone is playing proxies, I'll ask a player to disclose a few cards of interest. Depends on the deck and deck strategy what I'll ask about, but for the most part I'm not too worried about it. I've only ever asked those questions of newcomers to our pod who didn't give us honest vibes when talking about their deck.
So I've lately been proxying a lot of abu duals for my decks and I feel the reaction seems to change more to it just being a regular land...when people know it didn't cost me a bunch to put it in my deck, they seem to value it more accurately as just an untapped dual...while not everyone is open to using proxy's, I think it's interesting to note how players evaluate cards when the expensive price tag is removed...
I have trouble understanding why people think rule 0 conversations take too long. Its simple whose the commander combos or no combos and fast mana is all that really matters. If you dont want to have those conversations play with people that dont and vice versa. Not playing with people you dont like playing with is always an option too
Disclose enough about your deck and cards in the pre-game convo that your farewell does not become a farebad. A rule of thumb I use is what I would like to know before starting a game.
I disclose how fast my deck works. It encompasses a lot of those pregame disclosures. "Average i could win by turn X, magical christmas land i could win by turn Y"
Rule zero gets longer again
The trio should make a video with sample disclosures for a few of their more interesting decks.
I do have a deck that is a combo deck which has multiple types of infinite combos and is built around drawing and finding those pieces through non instant/sorcery means.
Generally I will advise people that are unfamiliar with the deck that I have these infinite turn, combats and damage combos in the deck but will not disclose the specific cards I am using.
After the game if I do run away with it I will retire the deck for a different one in my collection for additional games. After the game I will discuss some of the combos if they didn’t come up. And show off how the deck can win on turn 3 with a mostly specific draw (no tutors or non permanent courses of mana and no fast mana rocks)
I don't ask for power scale arbitrary numbers or if people feel like their decks are focused optimized competitive etc. Lately I just ask what your win condition is/are and what the generally viewed most powerful cards or salt inducing cards in their deck are to see if it's a game everyone wants to play.
I recently built Mycotyrant and it's a very aggressively combo-y deck and playing it in general playgroups in the LGS has been rough. Nobody really has a problem with any individual cards but the pace of the deck and resilience makes finding fair matches hard sometimes so I always try to be super thorough in rule zero pregame talk
In my Pride of the Hull Clade deck "I Like Big Butts and I Cannot Lie", i run Thoracle, Jace Wielder of Mysteries, and Lab Man Ian Malcom edition because the point of the deck is to deck myself. So yeah i disclose that information. But the thing that really makes that deck hum are the Nyxbloom Ancient and Virtue of Strength that allows me to play the 30+ cards i just drew. Ive yet to smash someone in the face for 30 commander because of Zopandrel, but its definitely possible
on this topic, i really hate people who think they dont have to disclose their commander until a certain point (I should be seeing it before I make my mulligan decisions)
I'll say that I don't usually disclose infinite combos if my commander is part of the combo. Like, if you see me sit down with nivmizet, I'm almost certainly running combos, that's what that card does. If I'm playing chulane, I don't feel the need to be like "oh by the way, I'm playing aluren" because like, that's what that deck does (at least at the power level I'd bring my chulane deck out at.)
I do sometimes disclose infinite combos in other decks though. Like I'll give the heads up that my random U/R wizards deck also will try and win by using narumeha and ghostly flicker because that's not going to be immediately obvious. Narumeha is good, she supports other cards in the deck, ghostly flicker is also pretty good, and has the added bonus of letting me just accidentally win the game if I get them at the right time.
I also want to know if everyone is playing a deck that durdles and cannot find a way to win dooming the table to a three hour game
Sol ring is the second best fast mana piece, so it seems weird to disclose other fast mana when it's already assumed that everyone will have one of the most efficient pieces of it already.
The only time I care about sharing my deck list with someone ahead of time is if there is a low number of face-down cards. One of my decks has Boltbender as the only face-down card, and if everyone knows exactly what it is ahead of time, it ruins my whole trick.
I have all my deck lists on Archidekt, and I would have no problem letting anyone look through them before we played.
As far as board wipes go, I think that people need to realize that you have a 99 card deck. If you only have 2 boardwipes there is a very low probability that you see one every game, no matter how much card draw you have. At that point maybe you need to start questioning if having 2 or 0 makes more sense. When someone does cast a boardwipe it makes no difference to their opponents in that one game if they had 2 wipes and got lucky or had 6-8 so they could count on having one by a certain turn. There is also a lot of variance for opportunity cost in a deck; some decks might want to always have a wipe in their hand just in case and if they don't need it they can still get rid of it somehow with little to no cost and some decks might suffer more form a dead card. I think people need to keep this kind of stuff in mind if their eyes are bugging out when they hear how many board wipes someone has and are trying to use that number to gage what kind of game is being offered.
J- "am I wrong on that?"
D- "yeah basically" 😂😂
River Song's diary would also be a great card in the new Obeka. Crash in with Obeka and get multiple attempts to cast the big spell you want to hit.
I think the biggest thing with the question about Tutors is whether you're running the infinite combos.
Do I think I need to say that I have Eladamri's Call to go get Boromir to protect my table? No.
Do I think I need to say that I have Idyllic and Enlightened Tutors to assemble my artifact or enchantment game-winning combo? I probably should.
Yes! I'm building Kellan the Kid deck atm and Diary is already on the list - awesome card and especially in this deck
Even with the fblthp nonbo you will still likely run it since I expect it’s a heavy plot theme deck with visions still greatly benefits from
Out of the top 100 saltiest cards I play is Teferis protection, Cyclonic Rift and Craterhoof. Some of those can just end games. Are those cards you think you should mention in rule zero?
In the same vein should you mention Inkshield?
I think it depends on playgroup. We don't disclose ANYTHING and it's a constant case of "Surprise! Now do something about it.". Far from a bad thing because we would rather play against or around it instead of cry. I have absolutely no idea what a real Rule 0 discussion is aside from "I'm running ______ tonight."
I had a small infinite combo in one of my decks and hated what happened at the table when I would disclose it. Everyone would bring out their stronger deck. I've never pulled off my infinite and that deck was underpowered at those tables. I've since taken out the infinite and have had a much better time.
I rarely play with new people and my opponents know my decks.. price i dont mention but i would mention if theres 3 to 4 card combos.. transparency is key though
"I'm not doing infinites, winning out of nowhere, excessive wipes/mld, or stax". If that's disagreeable, I don't need whatever pod that could have been, and they should grow a pair.
I have a few decks that I consider it polite to warn people about at least the rough outline of what my deck is doing, not because the decks are especially good, it's because they often do things that are considered anti-social. The decks might feature stax, significant land destruction elements, or tons of wipes (or if you're really unlucky it's a deck with all of them!), if a deck's strategy involves making it hard for opponents to 'do their thing' it's probably going to be mentioned, though the first step is 'do you want any heads up about potential 'anti-social' elements?', I don't think you should just volunteer your deck's plan without prompting! I also have decks that don't run such cards, including decks that skimp (or skip) wipes and interactions (and use no stax), I think if you've got more than 2 or 3 decks some of them should be 'specialized' in some way, either so you can play with such like stax in a respectful manner, but also so you're prepared for groups where people don't want such things. Heck, sometimes I don't want to play a tedious stax/rack build and would rather play a straightforward deck that's all in on what it's on.
I don't think you need to warn people about things that are 'power level' based concerns, IMHO you don't need to tell people about Mana Crypt or Sol Ring because you just don't run them in decks that aren't at least 7s. At 7 I think you could mention Crypt or Vault (or any Moxen that aren't Tantalites), but I wouldn't run those in a 7 personally, but if I have a Sol Ring in a 7 I probably won't mention it. If I snuck a Sol Ring into a 6 I think it should be mentioned, unless it's a precon (all precons have Sol Rings). For stuff like Cyclonic Rift, I wouldn't play it in anything less than an 8 (same with Rhystic Study), those cards are obnoxiously powerful and aren't enough mana for what they do (Rhystic Study is a MUCH better card than Smothering Tithe, but Tithe is 4 mana and forces you to play White, Study >>>>> Tithe), so if someone snuck them into a 7 I'd expect them to mention it (so I can bring my own more obnoxious deck). The Great Henge is probably in the 'you should mention this' if you've got it in a 7, but in an 8 I think that's expected.
I don't think Dual Lands are problematic in the least, as long as you're not fetching them out somehow (and inevitably doing it preferentially). Fetches and OG duals are a HUGE power buff in Grixis and Esper. If you're running a Savanah in your Selesnya deck I'm probably not going to bat an eyelash, but if you've got 9 Fetches and the 3 OG duals in your Grixis deck I'm going to raise an eyebrow if you call your deck a 7.
What's the consensus on rituals? I used to think they were fine, esp in mono-color decks, but I've seen arguments as being similar to fast mana rocks. What about Jeska's Will & Mana Geyser -- okay in casual or pushing OP?
Something like Blood Moon doesn't need to be disclosed as long as it isn't being played in a non-trolly manner. If I want to run it in my mono-red burn deck then I likely won't disclose it. If it was in some kind of stax or control deck then yeah.
Me at casual FNM: "I might mulligan a bunch my mana base is a nightmare, I have so few basics that I basically scoop to blood moon"
Opponent turn 3: "I play blood moon"
I performatively got up and walked off, but returned, I happened to have one of my rare basics in play. Eventually solving the problem with a Birthing Pod that didn't need coloured mana, I had a two drop that lived long enough. My main enchantment removal is double white :/
I tend to tell people about my Krak Klan Ironworks deck, and make sure you have grave hate and always exile Nim deathmantle because its my combo enabler.
There’s a newer guy at my LGS who keeps playing decks with 8 board wipes and 15 counterspells.
I’ve now built two decks specifically to play against him. “Oops all fireballs” and “You ain’t the boss of me” depending on whether I want to stop him or just not let him touch my board.
Hot opinion: If showing your decklist is a huge disadvantage then make a new decklist.
I'm never surprised when I see a format staple
I don't run fast mana outside of Sol Ring, Mox Opal is in my Syr Gwyn voltron deck, but that's not even that important to the deck, it's just another land that I have laying around that I wanted in a deck, likewise, it doesn't do anything until at least turn 4.
That being said, my Zangief deck has a few "problematic" cards, Jokulhops, Devastattion and Worldslayer, I do disclose it, and it usually ends the game when I play it. Zangief being indestructible makes it end quick, but those are 8+ mana and needs a lot of set up.
No (intentional) infinite combos in my decks. Just so many cards syndergize and become infinite by accident.