@@drachir7146 most people in a more competitive setting will remember to say whether they pay or not when casting. It's not a may effect so it happens regardless
For blue removal I love Pongify, Frogify, Rapid Hybridization, and Imprisoned in the Moon. I also would add Beast Within and Generous Gift as superb removal spells.
I’ve been cutting those blue options a lot in favor of Resculpt, Ravenform, and Reality Shift. Imprisoned in the moon still makes it into a lot of my blue decks, but it can sometimes be hard to resist the temptation to almost completely remove a commander from the game. What do you think? Are the 1 mana instant “destroy creature” spells better?
I don’t like reality shift because it has ~1/3 chance of giving your opponent a card draw. I usually run Resculpt, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Submerge and 5-6 counterspells as my blue removal
44:38 - I've used Reconnaissance in a few decks, and every single time it's been amazing. "I attack you with all of my soldiers." "I block three of them." "I pull those three blocked soldiers out of combat and untap them. You take two damage." I didn't even know you could untap them after they already did damage, that just makes it even better.
Hi guys, i dont know if you already have a video on that but would be great if you dedicate an episode just about playtesting, i se a lot of people having a lot of questions that could be answerd if they properly test the decks and having a gide on that would be awesome!
I run Harmonize in every non-enchantress green deck for precisely the reason Dana mentions: while not as potentially explosive as R's Expertise or Return of Garruk's Mojo, Harmonize always nets you cards. Easily my favorite "veggies" card.
Taking turn 3 or 4 off to net two cards is bad by today's standards. There are so many more powerful cards that give card advantage these days. I ran harmonize back in 2015, almost everyone did. But the card has fallen out of favor because it has been left behind in terms of power level.
My problem with Harmonize is that a solid 65-70% of the time I draw it in the kinds of Mono Green decks I often play, is that I find myself thinking, “If this was Return of the Wildspeaker, I’d be on a draw-7 or even 7+ right now, for one more mana.” Do I think Harmonize will deliver better value in a wider range of decks? Sure. It just doesn’t belong on a List of Universally Acclaimed Veggies, because there are *a lot* of Green decks that, if it’s one or the other, RotW is probably the better card. The overarching point about Harmonize being infinitely more reliable than “Home Runs” like Rishkar’s Expertise isn’t wrong. I just see RotW get caught up in being classified the same as a RE or Turntimber, and it’s really not if you’re playing anything with decently stat lined 4-drops. I keep telling people that Archdruid’s Charm is one of the best things to ever happen to Green. A lot of people are reluctant to run Fight/Bite Spells for whatever reason, so here you go. Any one mode is overcosted, but those are 3 solid modes on one piece of cardboard. It’s gotten even better recently, with so many cards bringing non-Artifact permanents back as Artifacts too.
I used to run Reconnaissance in Alesha, Who Smiles At Death, so when I built Isshin, I knew I wanted it in there. It's one of those spells that people don't think about because at the time it was printed, it sucked monkey balls. You couldn't do the psuedo-vigilance thing, for one thing. By the time combat changed to make it as powerful as it now is, it had already been relegated to the dustbin of "limited fodder" in a set that had a lot more famous things.
Beast Within, Song of the dryads, Lignify, Kenrith's Transformation are all excellent removal spells (even Berserk can work and have some interesting politics), but also green will almost always have access to more mana than any other color, so over costed colorless removal spells are far more feasible in green. I've never found removal to be a thing I struggle with when playing green. Scour from Existence, Brittle Effigy, even unstable obelisk, Karn Liberated or Ugin the Spirit dragon... Also green has deathtouch + one sided fight cards. Board wipes admittedly green does struggle a little more, but still cards like Ezuri's predation or Apex Altisaur often do plenty. I've never personally ran The Great Aurora, but could work in a pinch, but personally I usually just run boompile and nevinyrral's disk if I feel like I need board wipes in mono green (Sidenote: Boompile is super underrated). Finally, not having access to many board wipes in mono green is usually fine since as the monogreen player, you're going to be hurt the most by a board wipe anyways.
My theory about why people don't complain about blue and black lack of ramp, outside rocks, is that both colors can catch up eventually, they have good draw power and good value strategies, they don't feel falling behind all game very often. I have a Feather deck and drawing so much card does feel like ramping at some point because you NEVER miss a land drop.
@@blaze556922 Yeah, i think i agree. The last time i play mono W was with Odric keyword soup, and closing the game was not easy like with mono G. In comparison, white with other colors is really good, selesnya is not THE token combination for nothing
@Steven Luoma I think many would disagree because a ton of the most back breaking cards in the game arent creatures. 2 more mana for 4 more card types is worth it.
@@grimbourne No but only hitting creatures is way way worse than being able to hit an insane game winning artifact or enchantment or snipe the Maze of Ith that's shutting down your Voltron creature.
@@grimbourne Literally nothing is as efficient in white at dealing with all of those things. Yea, disenchant is 2 not 3 but you'd have to be insane to think disenchant is the better card. Hitting literally anything is crucial, there's a reason Assassin's Trophy and even Anguished Unmaking are so valued. They're not 1 mana but they save you from so much more. I'm still playing path and swords but they don't solve everything.
@@grimbourne Not talking about cEDH, not really relevant to the discussion. It's not a cEDH podcast. Non cEDH games are often won and lost by extreme permanents and many of which aren't creatures full stop. 2 extra mana is often worth the untapped flexibility.
@@DylanHunter64 you lack the understanding on why its not played in cedh. And that applies to edh as a whole. Paying 1 mana for removal means you get to play more magic. You play gifts to slow down decks and lower there power level.
In mono green, it isn't unreasonable to hit 12 mana. You could therefore cast Parallel Evolution and flashback it on the same turn, quadrupling your tokens. That's not a major benefit, but it is notable. Especially if you're running short on cards, need to block a huge trampler, need annihilator fodder or simply need to bait out a boardwipe or counterspell.
I will definitely say this is one of the best episodes that I’ve ever heard and I’m a long-time listener I am a big fan of using ““ veggies as EDH player and smoothing out decks.As a lifetime martial artist it’s the fundamentals that allow you to create and have those explosive moments. The only part I have a grievance is that the somatic moment of saying white isn’t artifact centric Is that white is looking for combat artifacts but that can be read in the intention of your statement regardless thank you for your work I appreciate it
I always play Night's Whisper, Chart a Course, etc. in decks where I can fit them, I love low mana draw 2-3 spells. I actually tend to prefer them over the big flashy effects, though it's nice to have a nice balanced mix of both
A really important aspect (*the* most important, imho) of those small card draw spells is not missing your land drops. Missing land drops "early" (in more casual Commander, "early" can be your 5th or 6th land drop in a row) puts you really far behind, especially if you're not playing Green. Cards like Night's Whisper, Reckless Impulse or Welcoming Vampire can help you overcome that hurdle.
my greatest weakness in deck building is not running enough removal. i'm a pretty heavy combo player and most of my slots are devoted to the combo pieces, combo protection, and combo recursion. i'll slowly take out removal one card at a time until i realize that i've only got two left and then i'll say to myself whats even the point and take out the rest. it's a horrible habit of mine i need to break.
@@blaze556922 well i'm looking to close out the game no later than turn 3 or 4. and i have about 30 decks so if i don't want to win a certain way i just play a different deck.
@@blaze556922 that's perfectly fine. i don't expect that level of play to be fun for everyone. not ALL of my decks are geared to be that fast, but a vast majority are. however and this is where i need to build better, as i said i remove most of my interactions. so depending on turn order and speeds of others decks i have no response if someone can win before me. which does happen even at those speeds. so i need to learn how to still try to hit hose turns maybe even sacrificing a turn in speed to add more interactions. but getting that balance is hard and i'm not that good at it yet.
@@blaze556922 times is valuable is actually what makes me turbo charge my decks. i get one night to play a week. i can play 1 or two games of those hr plus games before times up. with the speed finishers it's shuffle up and play again and we can get 4 or 5 games in, maybe more.
I may have missed it but any land with cycling are veggies that I tend to see a lot of players gloss over for basics or something flashy. I’m not saying go crazy and run 3 of every color in your commander’s identity but throw in 1-2 just to have some flexibility. I can’t tell you how many times I have won by drawing into something I needed or by setting up with a tutor and then drawing it by cycling.
In white I’ve been getting work out of my “cut a deal” it does everything you guys say and by being friendly with it no one will ever think of countering. I like spending 3 mana for 3 or 4 cards in white.
Can't wait for Joey to get back, BUT it's great to get more of Mr. Morgan. As someone who listens to CMDR Central I gladly hear Dana each week as a host. But Matt is really insightful and I loved getting his view on this topic
No one can ever convince me that red card draw is better than white. There's not a single way to add cards to your hand and nothing feels worse than when the only card in your hand is a faithless looting or thrill of possibility.
Last message I feel that in more of my experiences being a consultant that moves up and down the East Coast and sometimes California those vegetable cards are the cards that the players that know the game or more weary of having A relic of p or A lantern has changed entire games from being hyper competitive to manageable for people at the table
I think white's issue is more specifically card draw rather than ramp. Its really the 2nd best at tutoring lands into play albeit, green is so far in first it doesn't seem it, but what the other colors have to make up for that is card draw. Blue and black by far can just draw into their deck and even red(more so now) can at least loot/rummage/impulse through more cards to play/see. But white doesnt, it gets its 1 a turn and maybe 1 extra and thats a big maybe. So evetho the others have to rely on rocks they dig down more to see more lands than white.
So I think Tormod's crypt keeper is waaay slept on. 3/2 Vigilance for 3 mana is a good rate and can remove a problem graveyard. Plus most decks can recurs creatures from grave more easily than other cards.
As someone who has an Yidris Enchantress/Cascade/Constellation deck… gotta say Apex devastator is honestly “devastating” in the deck. It can turn the tides so quickly
Somebody mentioned Vona"s Hunger. 😲 Vona's Hunger is one of my favorite cards but my friends don't understand how useful it is. It's instant speed has saved me multiple times against them and they still don't understand how strong it is.
I think it comes down to the days when ETH for me was one deck to face them all and you have to be prepared for every situation. And having those land tricks those sorceries that remove all the level of interaction and being able to maintain your strategy while still being a social interactive just was and is ETH to me
When he said there was variant of second harvest I get interested for puting it on my Lonis clues deck and then I read Parallel Evolution only works with creature tokens :(
"You'd be hard pressed to argue white isn't fifth in card draw" I mean... That's the stated design intent? The colors are supposed to have weak points, not sure what the point of that statement was here. Also, I'm kind of exhausted of the sentiment that draw somehow ceases to count or counts for less if it's on a creature. Also-also, it's so funny to watch people hem and haw about if the draw white's been getting is good enough, and how Secret Rendezvous is such a controversial card, and meanwhile, with white already being my favorite color for years, I'm over here absolutely laughing it up and Secret Rendezvous is one of my favorite cards of all time.
Most people opinion on White is just wrong/ or don't understand deck building. 1. White is the second best color at ramp. 2. The best color at removal. 3. has some of the best draw cards in the game as long as you stay in the White themes.
I play Lin Sivvi. 1. Artifacts are the second best color at ramp (you can almost do a mono color deck with 2 cmc artifact ramp cards). Most artifact ramp is generally just better then white's 2 cmc ramp options. White is good at getting lands into your hand (card's like scroll rack & hand of vecna are solid payoffs). 2. White is the deepest and overall the best at removal. Other color's like green have great artifact & enchantment removal. Black's is offering up a solid wrath in deluge. How deep a color is only really matters if the deck is monocolor. Most 2+ color decks can find solid removal within their colors to mitigate any downside of being in a color. 3. Every color has good card draw if you stick to themes & dedicate multiple cards to synergies to pull it off. What white theme has good card draw (that has a minimal build around).
1.small value creatures (Mentor of the meek, welcoming vampire, rumor gather, Bennie Bracks, Zoologist ) 2. Equipment/enchantment/vehicles (puresteel Paladin, Sram high Edificer, mesa enchantress, kor spirtdancer. 3. Catch up (Esper sentinel, Mangara the diplomat, Archivist of Oghma, Alms collector) 4. Sorcery/instants (Secret Rendezvous, Cut a Deal, Your Temple Is Under Attack). 5. tutors (artifacts and enchantment kings!!) 6. Reanimation (probably the best color for this!) That's 15 cards that can be mix and matched for the perfect draw package All this is card advantage and that not including artifacts. No color comes close to white in removal!!!! they can do it all and probably exle it while doing it. They have the best board wipes, the best artifacts/enchantment removal. What it really needs is finishers
@@jonathanhearn9359 I've been away on holidays so pardon my late response. I would love to see better finishers (ie. Rick & Elesh norn are two that I like). Most of the cards you listed are either play around or situational. I've made a decent package of card draw in my deck. I'd like something pay x mana opponent gains life draw some cards. I may be dismissing the political aspect of cards like "secret rendezvous, etc..." to my own detriment. The idea of having to give your opponent more of something then I get out of it sits poorly with me. Rightly or wrongly I contrast it to black draw where it's life loss & being in a 40 life format it rarely matters. I agree no one color comes close to white removal. But most 2+ colors decks can put together something nearly as strong or stronger combination of cards then you can find in mono white. I guess my feeling around white removal is that is doesn't feel as defining as a color trait as it once did (unless everyone at the table is playing mono color). And maybe white removal is moving towards hatebears. I will have to take a further look into color based removal to get a better sense of white's removal. The depth of white removal does give it flexibility-particularly with it's wrath effects. Green has better targeted based artifact and enchantment based removal by quite a bit. White's targeted artifact & enchantment removal is mediocre.
What's weird for me is that my playgroup does not discourage board wipes. Green mana ramp can only be partially done in non green by rocks. Armageddon and Winter Orb against green is what Vandalblast is to nongreen, and Vandalblast is very played. Armageddon is not nearly as huge of a blowout for us if there is no green at the table. Spot removal for artifacts (not ideal against rocks, but an option) is commonly ran, but strip mines can hit ramp players for almost that same effect.
it is so stinky easy to draw cards at this point in white I really dont get the hubbub anymore. like three years ago sure but white has clearly surpassed red in terms of actual card draw the impulsive stuff you have to build youre whole deck around I just dont get it I hope their done the color pie exists for a reason
In all seriousness (if it's not too personal), how old IS Joey (at least in early/mid/late-20s/30s/etc)? I figured Matt and Joey were around the same age (Matt being a little older than Joey but only by a couple of years), i.e. both in their early-30s, yet the amount of jokes aimed at Joey being young are too much to ignore now! Maybe Joey IS super young but just makes up for it with confidence beyond his years?!
This is literally the best ETH episode I think you’ve ever had in terms of gameplay very impressed thank you it very much speaks to my sentiments of how you play the game I’m in my feelings
I'm wondering: Do you guys have an episode that adresses the opposite of this? I feel like my deckbuilding drifts towards putting too many veggies and too few bombs into my decks.
Is having enough ramp, removal and card draw a problem? In a generic deck, if you run 37 lands, 6 single-target removal, 4 boardwipes, 13 card draw and 15 ramp cards, you still have 35 slots for win conditions. That's more than enough.
How do you talk about white card draw and not even call attention to Esper Sentinel, one of the best card draw engines of any color printed in recent years. Also, impulse draw < actual card draw, so I'd say red is worse than white at card draw.
The fact nobody complains about blue relying on mana rocks is why I've seen the 'white needs ramp' line of complaint as completely dismissable. It has ramp. It has great ramp. It's just like 'card advantage' - white has wraths, which are amazing card advantage. People are correctly identifying a problem with white ("i don't like how this feels") and then incorrectly concocting a solution ("what if it was blue and green.")
Disagree with your consensus on white ramp. So many white cards say put a basic plains in your hard or on the battlefield tapped it's silly. The fact is, white has been the second best ramp color for decades...but second is still miles behind.
Omg stop talking about black market. Stop putting that shit in your decks what the fuck are you all playing a different format than I am? Black Market ist *NOT* ramp. It is a 5 mana do-nothing card that has 2 modes printed on it. The actual card text reads as follows: "At the End of your drawphase if Black Market has 2-3 counters, you will get 0-3 black mana. Congratulations, you've timewalked yourself for what could've been a real turn. At the End of your drawphase, if Black Market has at least 4 counters on it, your opponents will destroy it. Don't even start planning out your next turn. By the way, you skipped your last already." It's just a terrible card that gives a negligible amount of mana until it wouldn't in which case it gets destroyed/exiled in 9999/10000 times. My fellow black players: Do not waste your mana, do not waste your turns on casting this entirely useless piece of garbage card. Just look at it from a ceiling to floor perspective: Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass the turn, someone else boardwipes, get 20 mana in your turn (you have no board left) if you reach mainphase with it. Somewhat Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM , spend 4 mana for Damnation. Get 20 counters. Pass the turn. Get 20 mana if you reach your mainphase. Somewhat floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass, no creatures die or BM gets removed. 0 mana. Floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, in response cyclonic rift. You now have 0 Counters, no way to get counters, your hand is full and you have 5 mana less to repopulate your board. What do people want to do with all that mana? Sure, Torment of Hailfire and other x-spells. Anything else? Not really, your expensive creatures cost around 8-7 mana. You can have those instead of casting BM and a Boardwipe and hoping for it to table. Seriously. There is no fckn reason someone with 2 working braincells would play black market.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Eat your veggies and always pay the 1..
Always
And *only then* you can have your Craterhoof!
Don't feed the fish
Nah never pay the 1 I'll just forget my Study trigger
@@drachir7146 most people in a more competitive setting will remember to say whether they pay or not when casting. It's not a may effect so it happens regardless
Guess you'll just have to give Joey a double dose of puns next week. Those are as important as veggies to keep him healthy and functioning.
For blue removal I love Pongify, Frogify, Rapid Hybridization, and Imprisoned in the Moon. I also would add Beast Within and Generous Gift as superb removal spells.
I’ve been cutting those blue options a lot in favor of Resculpt, Ravenform, and Reality Shift. Imprisoned in the moon still makes it into a lot of my blue decks, but it can sometimes be hard to resist the temptation to almost completely remove a commander from the game. What do you think? Are the 1 mana instant “destroy creature” spells better?
I use the new one, from New Capenna witness protection
I don’t like reality shift because it has ~1/3 chance of giving your opponent a card draw. I usually run Resculpt, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, Submerge and 5-6 counterspells as my blue removal
Don't forget In Too Deep!
44:38 - I've used Reconnaissance in a few decks, and every single time it's been amazing. "I attack you with all of my soldiers." "I block three of them." "I pull those three blocked soldiers out of combat and untap them. You take two damage." I didn't even know you could untap them after they already did damage, that just makes it even better.
Hi guys, i dont know if you already have a video on that but would be great if you dedicate an episode just about playtesting, i se a lot of people having a lot of questions that could be answerd if they properly test the decks and having a gide on that would be awesome!
I run Harmonize in every non-enchantress green deck for precisely the reason Dana mentions: while not as potentially explosive as R's Expertise or Return of Garruk's Mojo, Harmonize always nets you cards. Easily my favorite "veggies" card.
Taking turn 3 or 4 off to net two cards is bad by today's standards. There are so many more powerful cards that give card advantage these days. I ran harmonize back in 2015, almost everyone did. But the card has fallen out of favor because it has been left behind in terms of power level.
@@andrewpeli9019 Which green cards draws more than 3 cards for 4 mana on turn 3-4? And why are you using Harmonize on turn 3-4?
My problem with Harmonize is that a solid 65-70% of the time I draw it in the kinds of Mono Green decks I often play, is that I find myself thinking, “If this was Return of the Wildspeaker, I’d be on a draw-7 or even 7+ right now, for one more mana.”
Do I think Harmonize will deliver better value in a wider range of decks? Sure. It just doesn’t belong on a List of Universally Acclaimed Veggies, because there are *a lot* of Green decks that, if it’s one or the other, RotW is probably the better card.
The overarching point about Harmonize being infinitely more reliable than “Home Runs” like Rishkar’s Expertise isn’t wrong. I just see RotW get caught up in being classified the same as a RE or Turntimber, and it’s really not if you’re playing anything with decently stat lined 4-drops.
I keep telling people that Archdruid’s Charm is one of the best things to ever happen to Green. A lot of people are reluctant to run Fight/Bite Spells for whatever reason, so here you go. Any one mode is overcosted, but those are 3 solid modes on one piece of cardboard. It’s gotten even better recently, with so many cards bringing non-Artifact permanents back as Artifacts too.
I used to run Reconnaissance in Alesha, Who Smiles At Death, so when I built Isshin, I knew I wanted it in there. It's one of those spells that people don't think about because at the time it was printed, it sucked monkey balls. You couldn't do the psuedo-vigilance thing, for one thing. By the time combat changed to make it as powerful as it now is, it had already been relegated to the dustbin of "limited fodder" in a set that had a lot more famous things.
Beast Within, Song of the dryads, Lignify, Kenrith's Transformation are all excellent removal spells (even Berserk can work and have some interesting politics), but also green will almost always have access to more mana than any other color, so over costed colorless removal spells are far more feasible in green. I've never found removal to be a thing I struggle with when playing green. Scour from Existence, Brittle Effigy, even unstable obelisk, Karn Liberated or Ugin the Spirit dragon... Also green has deathtouch + one sided fight cards. Board wipes admittedly green does struggle a little more, but still cards like Ezuri's predation or Apex Altisaur often do plenty. I've never personally ran The Great Aurora, but could work in a pinch, but personally I usually just run boompile and nevinyrral's disk if I feel like I need board wipes in mono green (Sidenote: Boompile is super underrated). Finally, not having access to many board wipes in mono green is usually fine since as the monogreen player, you're going to be hurt the most by a board wipe anyways.
Navigation orb is a 5 mana colorless cultivate not a burnished hart or explosive vegetables, it only puts 1 of the lands on the battlefield
As you said, expensive cards are not veggies, but Pitiless Plunderer is the ramp version of Village Rites/Deadly Dispute
My theory about why people don't complain about blue and black lack of ramp, outside rocks, is that both colors can catch up eventually, they have good draw power and good value strategies, they don't feel falling behind all game very often. I have a Feather deck and drawing so much card does feel like ramping at some point because you NEVER miss a land drop.
@@blaze556922 Yeah, i think i agree. The last time i play mono W was with Odric keyword soup, and closing the game was not easy like with mono G. In comparison, white with other colors is really good, selesnya is not THE token combination for nothing
"Swords and Path are the best white removal spells ever printed,"
*Generous Gift has entered the chat*
@Steven Luoma I think many would disagree because a ton of the most back breaking cards in the game arent creatures. 2 more mana for 4 more card types is worth it.
@@grimbourne No but only hitting creatures is way way worse than being able to hit an insane game winning artifact or enchantment or snipe the Maze of Ith that's shutting down your Voltron creature.
@@grimbourne Literally nothing is as efficient in white at dealing with all of those things. Yea, disenchant is 2 not 3 but you'd have to be insane to think disenchant is the better card. Hitting literally anything is crucial, there's a reason Assassin's Trophy and even Anguished Unmaking are so valued. They're not 1 mana but they save you from so much more. I'm still playing path and swords but they don't solve everything.
@@grimbourne Not talking about cEDH, not really relevant to the discussion. It's not a cEDH podcast. Non cEDH games are often won and lost by extreme permanents and many of which aren't creatures full stop. 2 extra mana is often worth the untapped flexibility.
@@DylanHunter64 you lack the understanding on why its not played in cedh. And that applies to edh as a whole. Paying 1 mana for removal means you get to play more magic. You play gifts to slow down decks and lower there power level.
In mono green, it isn't unreasonable to hit 12 mana. You could therefore cast Parallel Evolution and flashback it on the same turn, quadrupling your tokens.
That's not a major benefit, but it is notable. Especially if you're running short on cards, need to block a huge trampler, need annihilator fodder or simply need to bait out a boardwipe or counterspell.
I will definitely say this is one of the best episodes that I’ve ever heard and I’m a long-time listener I am a big fan of using ““ veggies as EDH player and smoothing out decks.As a lifetime martial artist it’s the fundamentals that allow you to create and have those explosive moments. The only part I have a grievance is that the somatic moment of saying white isn’t artifact centric Is that white is looking for combat artifacts but that can be read in the intention of your statement regardless thank you for your work I appreciate it
Joey's infectious laughter makes the dad jokes way, way better.
Chandra's Ignition has so much utility. If your Commander has Deathtouch, you should just play it
Or lifelink :p
Or give it infect :o
I always play Night's Whisper, Chart a Course, etc. in decks where I can fit them, I love low mana draw 2-3 spells. I actually tend to prefer them over the big flashy effects, though it's nice to have a nice balanced mix of both
A really important aspect (*the* most important, imho) of those small card draw spells is not missing your land drops. Missing land drops "early" (in more casual Commander, "early" can be your 5th or 6th land drop in a row) puts you really far behind, especially if you're not playing Green. Cards like Night's Whisper, Reckless Impulse or Welcoming Vampire can help you overcome that hurdle.
my greatest weakness in deck building is not running enough removal. i'm a pretty heavy combo player and most of my slots are devoted to the combo pieces, combo protection, and combo recursion. i'll slowly take out removal one card at a time until i realize that i've only got two left and then i'll say to myself whats even the point and take out the rest. it's a horrible habit of mine i need to break.
@@blaze556922 well i'm looking to close out the game no later than turn 3 or 4. and i have about 30 decks so if i don't want to win a certain way i just play a different deck.
@@blaze556922 that's perfectly fine. i don't expect that level of play to be fun for everyone. not ALL of my decks are geared to be that fast, but a vast majority are.
however and this is where i need to build better, as i said i remove most of my interactions. so depending on turn order and speeds of others decks i have no response if someone can win before me. which does happen even at those speeds.
so i need to learn how to still try to hit hose turns maybe even sacrificing a turn in speed to add more interactions. but getting that balance is hard and i'm not that good at it yet.
@@blaze556922 times is valuable is actually what makes me turbo charge my decks. i get one night to play a week. i can play 1 or two games of those hr plus games before times up. with the speed finishers it's shuffle up and play again and we can get 4 or 5 games in, maybe more.
I may have missed it but any land with cycling are veggies that I tend to see a lot of players gloss over for basics or something flashy.
I’m not saying go crazy and run 3 of every color in your commander’s identity but throw in 1-2 just to have some flexibility. I can’t tell you how many times I have won by drawing into something I needed or by setting up with a tutor and then drawing it by cycling.
If Homeward Path wasn't like $15 I'd have one in literally every single deck. I don't care if it's 5 color. I want a Homeward Path
I agree. We really need some Homeward Path reprints with the number of steal effects being printed lately.
In white I’ve been getting work out of my “cut a deal” it does everything you guys say and by being friendly with it no one will ever think of countering. I like spending 3 mana for 3 or 4 cards in white.
Weathered Wayfarer is not white ramp. It just helps make sure that you hit your landfalls.
Can't wait for Joey to get back, BUT it's great to get more of Mr. Morgan. As someone who listens to CMDR Central I gladly hear Dana each week as a host. But Matt is really insightful and I loved getting his view on this topic
I love the dad jokes but part of me would love to see something different but equally special from Dana like Snapple facts. :)
I'll assist you by giving you one for free: Gorillas have big nostrils because of their big fingers.
The other thing that makes Beast Whisperer better is the creature type, just to add to the conversation about power creep.
Tibalt's trickery is a worthy mention for red removal. It's real good. Also Smuggler Snare for white card draw
No one can ever convince me that red card draw is better than white. There's not a single way to add cards to your hand and nothing feels worse than when the only card in your hand is a faithless looting or thrill of possibility.
Last message I feel that in more of my experiences being a consultant that moves up and down the East Coast and sometimes California those vegetable cards are the cards that the players that know the game or more weary of having A relic of p or A lantern has changed entire games from being hyper competitive to manageable for people at the table
I think white's issue is more specifically card draw rather than ramp. Its really the 2nd best at tutoring lands into play albeit, green is so far in first it doesn't seem it, but what the other colors have to make up for that is card draw. Blue and black by far can just draw into their deck and even red(more so now) can at least loot/rummage/impulse through more cards to play/see. But white doesnt, it gets its 1 a turn and maybe 1 extra and thats a big maybe. So evetho the others have to rely on rocks they dig down more to see more lands than white.
Commander draw should be recursive. That's all!
So I think Tormod's crypt keeper is waaay slept on. 3/2 Vigilance for 3 mana is a good rate and can remove a problem graveyard. Plus most decks can recurs creatures from grave more easily than other cards.
As someone who has an Yidris Enchantress/Cascade/Constellation deck… gotta say Apex devastator is honestly “devastating” in the deck. It can turn the tides so quickly
Somebody mentioned Vona"s Hunger. 😲
Vona's Hunger is one of my favorite cards but my friends don't understand how useful it is.
It's instant speed has saved me multiple times against them and they still don't understand how strong it is.
I think it comes down to the days when ETH for me was one deck to face them all and you have to be prepared for every situation. And having those land tricks those sorceries that remove all the level of interaction and being able to maintain your strategy while still being a social interactive just was and is ETH to me
Having shiny rims on your car is all well and good, but you still have to gas it up. Ramp needs draw for a more well-rounded game flow.
When he said there was variant of second harvest I get interested for puting it on my Lonis clues deck and then I read Parallel Evolution only works with creature tokens :(
"You'd be hard pressed to argue white isn't fifth in card draw" I mean... That's the stated design intent? The colors are supposed to have weak points, not sure what the point of that statement was here. Also, I'm kind of exhausted of the sentiment that draw somehow ceases to count or counts for less if it's on a creature. Also-also, it's so funny to watch people hem and haw about if the draw white's been getting is good enough, and how Secret Rendezvous is such a controversial card, and meanwhile, with white already being my favorite color for years, I'm over here absolutely laughing it up and Secret Rendezvous is one of my favorite cards of all time.
Not only did we miss Joey, we missed his challenge the stats.
Yall still did great work like always tho.
I added liquimetal torque to all of my green decks. Bane of progress+ turn your sun titan is ok by me.
my favorite divination variant is of one mind from ikoria which is a divination that only costs 1 mana if you have a human and a non human
How did you guys not mention Beast Within?
Without Joey you should have made an episode all about graveyard hate. But as a graveyard player myself, I'm glad you didn't.
I had a game where I chaos warped a mikeaus the unhallowed my opponent had 6 cards left in deck with 8 devotion and the warp pulled thoracle.
"Daddy Dana" is iconic.
Does tovolar trigger the transform to night If you Control a Wolf and 2 werewolf?
You guys did a great job by yourselves. I must admit that without Joey I was afraid the dad jokes were gonna run rampant 😂 but it was just right!
Deep gnome terramancer vs deep gnome terramancer means that both players get all of their plains out the moment one is triggered.
Most people opinion on White is just wrong/ or don't understand deck building.
1. White is the second best color at ramp.
2. The best color at removal.
3. has some of the best draw cards in the game as long as you stay in the White themes.
I play Lin Sivvi. 1. Artifacts are the second best color at ramp (you can almost do a mono color deck with 2 cmc artifact ramp cards). Most artifact ramp is generally just better then white's 2 cmc ramp options. White is good at getting lands into your hand (card's like scroll rack & hand of vecna are solid payoffs). 2. White is the deepest and overall the best at removal. Other color's like green have great artifact & enchantment removal. Black's is offering up a solid wrath in deluge. How deep a color is only really matters if the deck is monocolor. Most 2+ color decks can find solid removal within their colors to mitigate any downside of being in a color. 3. Every color has good card draw if you stick to themes & dedicate multiple cards to synergies to pull it off. What white theme has good card draw (that has a minimal build around).
1.small value creatures (Mentor of the meek, welcoming vampire, rumor gather, Bennie Bracks, Zoologist )
2. Equipment/enchantment/vehicles (puresteel Paladin, Sram high Edificer, mesa enchantress, kor spirtdancer.
3. Catch up (Esper sentinel, Mangara the diplomat, Archivist of Oghma, Alms collector)
4. Sorcery/instants
(Secret Rendezvous, Cut a Deal, Your Temple Is Under Attack).
5. tutors (artifacts and enchantment kings!!)
6. Reanimation (probably the best color for this!)
That's 15 cards that can be mix and matched for the perfect draw package
All this is card advantage and that not including artifacts.
No color comes close to white in removal!!!! they can do it all and probably exle it while doing it. They have the best board wipes, the best artifacts/enchantment removal.
What it really needs is finishers
@@jonathanhearn9359 I've been away on holidays so pardon my late response. I would love to see better finishers (ie. Rick & Elesh norn are two that I like). Most of the cards you listed are either play around or situational. I've made a decent package of card draw in my deck. I'd like something pay x mana opponent gains life draw some cards. I may be dismissing the political aspect of cards like "secret rendezvous, etc..." to my own detriment. The idea of having to give your opponent more of something then I get out of it sits poorly with me. Rightly or wrongly I contrast it to black draw where it's life loss & being in a 40 life format it rarely matters.
I agree no one color comes close to white removal. But most 2+ colors decks can put together something nearly as strong or stronger combination of cards then you can find in mono white. I guess my feeling around white removal is that is doesn't feel as defining as a color trait as it once did (unless everyone at the table is playing mono color). And maybe white removal is moving towards hatebears.
I will have to take a further look into color based removal to get a better sense of white's removal. The depth of white removal does give it flexibility-particularly with it's wrath effects. Green has better targeted based artifact and enchantment based removal by quite a bit. White's targeted artifact & enchantment removal is mediocre.
Got excited and thought it was gonna be a VeggieWagon crossover
Can u make an upping avarage for chandra tribal or goro goro?
I don't know about you but I dockside into ancient copper dragon on turn 3 then swing and got 14 treasures.
did you guys trashtalk my flumph?
thats a petcard and vegie and more xD
39:35 ahhh, now I get it
Give Crook of Condemnation some love for graveyard hate!
Sometimes my deck doesn't want any damn vegetables
These guys naming all the casual cards as veggies
Wish there were stats on your twitch games
It’s the grease
Holy crap, terramancer was 20 bucks a year ago?! 😱
Green has land draws and land drops... Those are veggie cards
Reconnaissance reprint WHEN?!
Field of Ruin? Why would I want to pay three mana to ramp two of my opponents?
What's weird for me is that my playgroup does not discourage board wipes. Green mana ramp can only be partially done in non green by rocks. Armageddon and Winter Orb against green is what Vandalblast is to nongreen, and Vandalblast is very played. Armageddon is not nearly as huge of a blowout for us if there is no green at the table.
Spot removal for artifacts (not ideal against rocks, but an option) is commonly ran, but strip mines can hit ramp players for almost that same effect.
Everyone is "downplaying" or overlooking Smuggler's Share, it's busted
Just take out a land it will be fiiiine
it is so stinky easy to draw cards at this point in white I really dont get the hubbub anymore. like three years ago sure but white has clearly surpassed red in terms of actual card draw the impulsive stuff you have to build youre whole deck around I just dont get it I hope their done the color pie exists for a reason
so what i learned here is to hit Dana with Primal order in any game i can... :p
In all seriousness (if it's not too personal), how old IS Joey (at least in early/mid/late-20s/30s/etc)? I figured Matt and Joey were around the same age (Matt being a little older than Joey but only by a couple of years), i.e. both in their early-30s, yet the amount of jokes aimed at Joey being young are too much to ignore now! Maybe Joey IS super young but just makes up for it with confidence beyond his years?!
This is literally the best ETH episode I think you’ve ever had in terms of gameplay very impressed thank you it very much speaks to my sentiments of how you play the game I’m in my feelings
I'm wondering: Do you guys have an episode that adresses the opposite of this? I feel like my deckbuilding drifts towards putting too many veggies and too few bombs into my decks.
Is having enough ramp, removal and card draw a problem? In a generic deck, if you run 37 lands, 6 single-target removal, 4 boardwipes, 13 card draw and 15 ramp cards, you still have 35 slots for win conditions. That's more than enough.
Is there something like too much veggies in a deck?
How do you talk about white card draw and not even call attention to Esper Sentinel, one of the best card draw engines of any color printed in recent years.
Also, impulse draw < actual card draw, so I'd say red is worse than white at card draw.
The two best white ramp spells for token decks are Path to Exile and Settle the Wreckage. Prove me wrong!
Instead of meat, I eat veggies and ....!!!
The fact nobody complains about blue relying on mana rocks is why I've seen the 'white needs ramp' line of complaint as completely dismissable. It has ramp. It has great ramp. It's just like 'card advantage' - white has wraths, which are amazing card advantage. People are correctly identifying a problem with white ("i don't like how this feels") and then incorrectly concocting a solution ("what if it was blue and green.")
In the green draw segment you guys also missed life’s legacy. 2 mana and 1 beefy boy is a recipie for success.
Blue drawing cards mid-range "is kinda new".=FALSE, just plain NO
Soul Shatter is one of the dirtiest edicts to date.
wooooohhh, a third to 666! c:
Homeward Path always annoys me. Destroy it!
Disagree with your consensus on white ramp. So many white cards say put a basic plains in your hard or on the battlefield tapped it's silly. The fact is, white has been the second best ramp color for decades...but second is still miles behind.
You guys are so wrong about white and its card draw. White is not a meme anymore.
Omg stop talking about black market. Stop putting that shit in your decks what the fuck are you all playing a different format than I am?
Black Market ist *NOT* ramp. It is a 5 mana do-nothing card that has 2 modes printed on it. The actual card text reads as follows:
"At the End of your drawphase if Black Market has 2-3 counters, you will get 0-3 black mana. Congratulations, you've timewalked yourself for what could've been a real turn.
At the End of your drawphase, if Black Market has at least 4 counters on it, your opponents will destroy it. Don't even start planning out your next turn. By the way, you skipped your last already."
It's just a terrible card that gives a negligible amount of mana until it wouldn't in which case it gets destroyed/exiled in 9999/10000 times. My fellow black players: Do not waste your mana, do not waste your turns on casting this entirely useless piece of garbage card.
Just look at it from a ceiling to floor perspective:
Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass the turn, someone else boardwipes, get 20 mana in your turn (you have no board left) if you reach mainphase with it.
Somewhat Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM , spend 4 mana for Damnation. Get 20 counters. Pass the turn. Get 20 mana if you reach your mainphase.
Somewhat floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass, no creatures die or BM gets removed. 0 mana.
Floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, in response cyclonic rift. You now have 0 Counters, no way to get counters, your hand is full and you have 5 mana less to repopulate your board.
What do people want to do with all that mana? Sure, Torment of Hailfire and other x-spells. Anything else? Not really, your expensive creatures cost around 8-7 mana. You can have those instead of casting BM and a Boardwipe and hoping for it to table.
Seriously. There is no fckn reason someone with 2 working braincells would play black market.