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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Are these cards worth the gamble? Let's discuss some high-risk, high-reward cards and why we play them (or avoid them!) in Commander.
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"Be the player that plays howling mine" - Commander Sphere. I took this to heart and I have found that every game with a howling mine is a better game as everyone can do the thing they were there to do.
same!! and same with rites of flourishing
I don't understand the whole "let everyone do their thing" mentality. If your deck needs my permission, or even worse my help, to do its thing, build better decks?
@@dancingmathusalem5451 Its called having fun in a 4 player game where there are no stakes. It just makes games more consistent/exciting because people don't run out of resources.
@@dancingmathusalem5451 we want to see shenanigans and experience stories that are worth to tell. at least thats also a part of commander.
you can totally skip or ignore that part but others find joy in that possibility. i can encourage to try it out
Some of that boils down to variance. Sometimes players just can't draw well enough naturally because suddenly they hit a land or two in draws after keeping a great hand.
Dana thinking Collective Voyage is risky makes total sense since he doesn't play any basics.
Personally I have found Collective Voyage, in my hug deck, is risky if I have less than 3 mana (2G). If I can guarantee it will be at least 2, then it is worth the risk of not being 3+.
That's why I also like Ankh of Mishra, Power Surge, and Treacherous Terrain so much
It's risky because you're giving opponents resources for free
@@jadegrace1312 Giving your opponents resources for free is not the risky part for a group hug card in a group hug deck. That is the standard operating procedure. You are having the table collectively out value the archenemy before the archenemy reveals themselves.
The risks are:
A) They don't get the resources. (I have encountered decks with 0 basics or even 0 land cards).
B) They use the resources in a way that does not interact with the resources everyone else received. For example, a pod of decks that don't run answers and their offensive strategies bypass each other.
Scheming Symmetry when playing with people you know is a top 3 most fun card in commander. As a card it really subscribes to the idea of being the second person to try to win, and i really like the games that come out of that.
Sylvan offering is really good in Jetmir. You can give away some 1/1s when you're getting 4/1 trample, doublestrikers.
One of my pet cards was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I put it on most of my decks so I can skip putting Swamps on multi-colored decks. I also put them on mono-black decks so I can put a lot of colorless utility lands. I put it even when I did not have a Cabal Coffers on the deck, until I realized I turn on opponent's Cabal Coffers more than mine...
As someone who plays a lot of skullwinder, scheming symmetry, and fractured identity I have never been disappointed with the cost/risk ratio. They are always fun and basically always relevant
Spiteful Visions is an interesting "risky" card that did not seem to come up that functionally works like Howling Mine, Sulfuric Vortex, and Underworld Dreams rolled into a single card. Even if you are not playing a deck that plans on forcing your opponents to draw a large number of cards all at once, it can be helpful for keeping pressure on their life totals and putting a soft limit on the number of cards they can draw while also giving you an extra card on each of your turns. It works best for decks that do not draw a lot of extra cards otherwise, and if your opponents are already planning on drawing 4+ cards in a turn it does not make much of a difference to give them a fifth card while also having them take 5 damage.
Horn of Greed works in Landfall decks as long as they are actually playing the lands, not just having lands enter the battlefield. It does not work with Rampant Growth for example, but it does work with Exploration effects.
Skullwinder has a very important function. In mono green, you can give another player their boardwipe because green lacks in that department.
Also, getting an opponent to use their answer for your purposes is effectively mana advantage
Sylvan Offering is perfect for Grismold.
I've chaos warped a few blightsteel but one time the flipped card was the blightsteel right back
Forced Fruition is my only wincon in my hug deck and it's such a risky setup
A powerhouse card in Nekusar and wheel decks!
I played Crescendo of War in Eowyn and had to remove it myself xD
One spell I've wanted to use for years is Gaea's Balance. You get five land cards, one of each basic land type (although they don't have to be basic lands) and go to the battlefield. The risk? There is an extra cost of sacrificing five lands. So... if it gets countered you just lost 5 lands... ouch.
I use Mycoloth in my Slimefoot deck, and he always sees value. I sacrifice a ton of Saps to Mycoloth while I have Slimefoot on the board, so all my opponents lose life and I gain life. Even if Mycoloth gets taken out before my next upkeep, it already made an impact, and he took a kill spell to the face that could’ve been aimed at something like Slimefoot, or Deathspore Thallid.
I have a God Eternal Oketra deck and Odric slaps so hard. At a base, commander has double strike and the zombies she makes have vigilance, suddenly combat is a nightmare for my opponents
Reins of Power won me a game yesterday. Sometimes you have to Judo your way to victory 😂😂😂
My group hug deck has Nekusar as commander and has Megrim and Waste Not to punish for discarding on top of Nekusar punishing for card draw. I have Notion Thief as backup to take away card draw, if I feel that necessary.
That is like... group hug while wearing Russian Bear Armor...
not exactly the same risky as most of these cards but demonic consultation is my fav tutor in the game. one mana instant speed get what you want directly to your hand or die trying.
around the 20 minute mark, I could've sworn Dana was going for a challenge the stats segue
Dana turned the tides on Joey and killed him with Kindness. As a necro player (Joey), he doesnt understand kindness. Smooth Dana, real smooth.
In my Bruse Tarl/Ikra Shidiqi deck my favorite pet card is bond of agony. Insanely risking life cost on cast.
I actually disagree hard on the Howling Mine. I run that it about a dozen different decks. It's not about being optimized; we're not in a pro-tour. It's about making sure more stuff is happening, which always makes for better games for everyone. Isn't that social experience why most of us play commander?
Howling mine is god awful unless you play sheoldred or keep it tapped when not on your turn.
Howling mine should be in Urza and Nekusar and very little else
I’m so lucky! I was in the middle of building a group hug deck when this video came out, it helped me a lot lmfao
I'm working on a Yenna deck that just wants to make token copies of token doublers and that's the only deck I will probably ever play Primal Vigor in.
The one episode Oath of Druids would be perfect for 😢 no mention
Love this concept of fun cards that you just want to play cuz they are wacky > cards that you know are more effective and don’t make the board state unstable to give your opponents a way back. One card that easily brings the chaos that I run in my Jund ‘My favorite cards’.deck is Oath of Druids. Playing that early on t2-4 can just randomly hit an Ancient Brass Dragon or Etali but can also flip my opponents into game warping things. But I know everytime I play the card I get most of the table to read the card 2 or 3 times and plenty of times even the less creature focused decks still flip due to how goofy the game can get.
Scheming symmetry +mill = funny.
Playing at a friends house for a weekend of magic. I casted a pact of negation and had my 5th land blown up in a game before. The rest of the table was mad and proceeded to always target him with everything until he too lost. Turns out it was risky for both of us.
"Howling Mine is a bad card." - Famous Noob Last Words
Sometimes while watching this podcast, I really get the feeling that the EDHREC Cast only start playing Magic after like 2010.
I play odric in my akiri Equipment deck because Equipments give lots of different keywords
They are thinking about Howling Mine backwards. In a 4 player game it is I draw 2 and my opponent draws 1. (With a hidden cost later in the game of my 1st threat being negated). Until you are the archenemy, those howling mine draws cancel out a bit and favor the underdogs more than the archenemy.
Something which I think is relevant to “risky” card which I didn’t hear mentioned was budget, sometimes, it is the only way players can afford to generate certain effects because they can’t afford to spend £20+ on a single card, so they look for a card which does similar and it is only £1-2 but it has a possible risk or downside. When we compare cards to doubling season for example, that is super super expensive as are many other cards with similar effects; unless they are not one sided
Printer go brrrrr
I wish lol. we have a proxy rule in the playgroup you can only play a proxy if you then will buy the card after the 3rd time playing the deck@@Sillimant_
This video was basically listing all my favorite cards. I love politics, and I love edge case opportunities to deflect negative attention. I also love finding ways to break the parity!
I full send Black Market Connections all the time in my Lord of the Nazgûl deck because the shapeshifter counts towards my total Wraith count too. 1000% worth it when you have a base 81 damage on the board once you have 9 Wraiths!
Ohboy, I'm excited to watch this video. Playing with massive high risk and lose the game cards is my jam
I can see why you evaluate most of these cards as risky, but as you also mentioned, some of these are just super fun and create immortal stories for the table. Plus, stuff that draws everyone cards like howling mine might be objectively bad from a ‚I want to win‘ perspective, but it might prevent a person from being mana screwed and grumpy as a result. My goal is to optimize fun at the table, not winning. I only play once a month if that, so if everyone gets to do their thing and has fun, that’s already a win as I’m more likely to have a good time myself (that’s why I love my Rocco, I get to facilitate that while simultaneously benefitting to crush them in the end.) I would really love to hear your thoughts on different goals in deckbuilding and what type of goals you persuit consciously or maybe unconsciously.
I wouldn’t doubt it if every deck playing secret rondeau was just richard from mtggoldfish because that’s his pet card
We should check how many Secret Rendezvous decks also have Cartographer's Hawk.
The evolution of the challenge the stats segment is beautiful
The problem with Hallowed Spiritkeeper in King of the Oathbreakers is that King's all about not letting his creatures die. He's not a typical black deck. You're not going to get nearly as many spirits on average out of it as in other decks.
27:43 My experience has been much different. I've won most games I've played Secret Rendezvous due to being able to select who draws the cards, along with 3 cards (right now) for 3 mana is very efficient for white, and when you play white to its strengths (trivializing opponents' cards), you benefit most with these cards (especially if you KO the player you gave the cards). I look forward to more white card draw effects similar to this, as it fits perfectly with white's identity, while also allowing it to draw cards.
53:10 I disagree with this, as a "good" deck with many low drops just get to cast way more spells, and any good player knows full well that casting nine 1 drops that are designed to work together will have a more dramatic effect on the game than one 9 drop (that can usually be much easier to remove/deal with).
I would rather cast an actual blank card than Secret Rendezvous.
Honestly, I'd probably rather concede the game than cast Secret Rendezvous.
Howling mine can also be good if you have any cards that allow you to tap artifacts for bonuses. Then it’s just free.
best risky card, without a doubt, is Braids, Conjurer Adept.
Anyone else in my little category of I pay life and gain life in the same deck, and they mostly balance each other out?...Anybody?...No?...
I run Greed, Arguel’s Blood Fast, Erebos, Bleak-Hearted, Black Market Connections, and Bolas’s Citadel in my life gain deck.
I have a deck that kind of plays risky - it's Lulu with Cultist of the Absolute background, which is usually great for triggering Lulu's ability each end step - but sometimes the elephant's bloodlust is uncontainable and it consumes itself. Had to get accustomed to the feels bad of saccing your commander to itself, and there are *some* flash creatures in the list to save that particular situation, but it's happened more than once
I had an opponent cast Collective Voyage while I had an Opposirion Agent in play during a tournament. I said nothing, and all of my opponents forgot the Agent was in play. He then payed 6 mana into it, I payed 5, the other players payed 2 mana each. After the costs were payed, I pointed at the Opposition Agent. I spent the next few minutes learning that I already had the game won while looking at everyone's hands, and exiling all of my opponents' remaining basic lands from their libraries.
The best thing about coat of arms is that it's symmetrical.
A few weeks ago I was in a game with a guy using knight tribal, I was just relaxing with Tetsuko Umezawa. He had a coat of arms up, he passed to me, and I draw stolen identity.
There's no way I'm winning, so I opt to use stolen identity to copy the coat of arms. Then attack and copy it again
There are now three coat of arms on the table, and I manage to stay in the game until the last turn because of it. Best game of my life
Damn, that 22m mark is calling me out. I play a Kami of the Crescent Moon deck. I run ALL the howling mine cards 😂 the beautiful thing about it is I can counter my problems and let them duke it out at crazy rates. Why bug the Kami Durdle when you’re staring down the barrel of 2 other super charged players?
I'm a noob : my first month at MTG : got 3 packs of Doctor Who universes beyond at christmas...
Got one of the 40 spots for the Qualifiers for the France national championships March 16th.
Practice, learn : get weird cards like "Hot Fix", "Animate Library", "Archive Trap"...
There is a growing popular opinion amongst YT channels, this included, that likes to point out how wheels benefit other players too much. Dana also highlights how many times he’s seen someone “lose a game because they wheeled”. I fell prey to thinking this way the last couple months, but I have recently realized it is not as cut and dry or absolute as they talk about it. If you are just playing Windfall because you want to reset your hand, then yes, you are likely hurting to overall chances to win. But if you cast it when things are already looking grim? Or when you have 1-2 cards in hand and the archenemy has 6? Timing and being a strategic Magic player makes wheels significantly better than they have been talked about lately.
Did The "FLood Of Mars" make "Carpet of Flowers" even more monstrous for Green-Blue decks ?
2Whenever the Flood of Mars attacks put a flood counter on another target creature or land. Creature = if becomes a copy of Flood of MArs (your own in this strategy), and if it's a LAND = it becomes an island in addition to its other types = so now Carpet of flowers getrs +1 to you ;) EVERY time a Flood makes a land of your opponent island in addition ;( now you won'T have to worry - your opponent WILL have islands wether they want it or not
I am surprised to hear your opinion on Secret Rendezvous... I've cast that card dozens of times and had nothing but good experiences with it. Not that I always win after casting it, but I feel like it frequently lets me gain an advantage.
The complaint about group hug cards favouring other player's decks that aren't built as streamlinded (read: "bad decks") feels overly salty to me.
1. If a card your opponent plays makes your one-mana-spells meaningless compared to other players bigger spells and you lose the game for it, then maybe your deck isn't actually better and you need to account for these situations.
2. It's actually great if that happens because if one deck is clearly more streamlined than another, then the pod is mismatched, so if a group-hug deck then makes the "worse" decks at the table better than the sweaty (not phsyically, but mentally) ponder/"sign in blood"-player can't steamroll the others with his deck.
Secret Rendezvous has made the four other people in Joey’s games win. That doesn’t explain enough. Would the Rendezvous player have won had they cast a draw three? If I had to make a choice not to Rendezvous and lose to player A 100% of the time versus give myself an out to beat Player A but also increase the odds of losing to player B, it’s correct to Rendezvous. I love the card so much, and while it does involve risk, I have also seen the table saved by cooperation where “better,” greedier, card draw would have left us all dead.
I also don’t feel we should think of our three opponents as one player. So Howling Mine doesn’t give you one card while giving your one opponent three, it gives you one while giving your one opponent three cards that he will definitely use to hit himself 66.6% of the time as long as you don’t make yourself the threat.
In a game long ago a player had 2 great threats and whould combo next turn...I said... i have answers.. guy before me wheels looking for an answer....i lose 2 answers... no one get one... the guy with the combo wins....😢
I think stuff like howling mine or other symmetrical “helps everyone” cards is meta dependent. If everyone is in that upper 6+ power level range, howling mine is a terrible idea. You’re just going to empower someone even more than they already were.
Put it in a pod of new players with precons or 4/5/6 power level home brews and you’re helping make the games more fun.
The sad thing about the EDH arms race is that as decks get more optimized and more focused, a lot of decks lose their uniqueness and identity in favor of power/efficiency. Many cards and entire tribes or strategies become less powerful or able to keep up as power levels rise…in some ways I’d rather see someone play their pet cards vs the usual suite of staples.
id never run settle the wreckage, but winds of abandon is baseline a 1W sorcery path to exile. a very playable card. with a built in "Oh shit, i messed up" button in the overload. you dont use that mode 99/100 times. but that 1/100, you clear a board that would otherwise kill you. and living beats tripling your opponents mana through every basic out of their decks.
I specifically like the cards that turbo charge the game (in a group hug deck) specifically BECAUSE they advantage worse decks (my own) more than efficient decks
I have used Grasp of Fate many times to remove 3 opponents' commanders and every time they all have just decided to put it in the Command Zone instead of worrying about removing Grasp of Fate. Also, like they mentioned, there have been many times where I got rid of a big threat and a few minor threats and the owners of the minor threats have no intention of removing the Grasp of Fate either. Since it says Up to, it's just a much better Oblivion Ring.
funny story about primal vigor as a risky card. the first time i played it, after opening one in my eldraine box, one of my opponents used Ratadrabik and Boromir to make infinite non-legendary boromirs, which, was on board when i played primal vigor, i just hadn't realized it.
I run primal vigor in my zaxara deck only because there's not many decks that can take advantage of both abilities while it doubles zaxara's hydra tokens and then doubles the amount of counters on them
You have not truly played Lord Windgrace until you play Overlaid Terrain and then either -3 your commander to get the mana you spent back or play something like Splendid Reclamation to get obscene amounts of double mana generating lands.
I run phyrexian processor in my Trostani, Selesnya's voice EDH. I only play it at 8 mana to save me from dying. I'm also always scared I'm going to go too low, and get bolted XD
one of the 65,000 listeners who really likes howling mine.
it definitely means your opponents are up cards but i would rather lose more games because more people get more cards because I enjoy those games more
Usually, you add risky cards to add extra spice - and therefore fun - to the game, not to optimize your deck. Which is why I'm usually all in favor of that kind of cards.
I run scheming symmetry only in one deck, and it only works out because the deck (yawgmoth) can at will draw a card, to get access to the "free" tutor before the opponent, and hopefully close it from there (or mill them 1)
Heartstone and Lifeline are big risks to play, but thankfully I think I'm the only person I know that would consider running them. I run Heartstone in my Ashling
The riskiest card I play is probably Splendid Reclamation after I play God-Eternal Bontu to sacrifice all my lands for card draw and then return them all to the battlefield.
i want to hear about the situation where the player is running the risky card(s) in his or her deck and choosing to sandbag the risky cards to changes the outcome of the game…….. then the player who was running the risky cards reveals those cards after the game is finished, that is the decision o what to hear and i have been a part of a few games where 1 or 2 cards could have made a big difference (risk or no risk)
I disagree with so many of these cards haha I love em. It makes games more interesting. Yeah there are more efficient and better ways but I always appreciate when games go into different ways. Great video anyway!
23:23 All of these cards are fantastic in a Xyris, the Writhing Strom deck. Nothing is more entertaining to me than my opponents begging me to stop forcing them to draw extra cards.
Talking about taking risks, as a baker i have been considering moving to Canada. I think this is one of the few places on Earth where they know how to make a True Dough.
Fecundity mentiond?
Prob massively in own favor for creature token decks that r good at sacking own critters
53:21 this is such a weird and salty take. If extra cards and mana is somehow hurting your deck then you didn’t build it well.
I would say primal vigor in kibo is better than DS. Because mor bannanas equils mor power for you.
I have wheeled into my own Smothering Tithe and it's great! No one wants to pay? Cool I'll make 21 treasures.
I saw Matt play a deck on TH-cam the other day and I was trying to find his deck list . Where can I find them ?
Howling mine works in galazeth prismari where you get the extra draw, they don't, and it's a mana rock ;)
Wheeling into a Smothering Tithe, tapping out to wheel-risky card or just bad play?
I see how Howling Mine can be risky, but I love it in my Heliod, the Radiant Dawn deck 😉
Howling mine is great with Meria, it becomes a mana rock that gives you a card each turn
So with Grasp of fate... two commanders and a big problem? Seems decent.
I can't be the only one who thought that Matt was gonna segway into Challenge the Stats at 22:12, right?
I played last chance in a mono red deck and got to use it to take someone out with me so it was worth it lmao
Sylvan Offering is SUPER tasty in Grismold.
I rarely get any value from my mycoloth, but I'll go big with it every time
Keen duelist in Oloro, ageless ascetic edh deck.
Lots of these cards make games faster and that's a good thing.
Switzerland Is gorgeous in the summer.
My favorite card in all of magic is Demonic Pact, I decided to use Zur, Eternal Schemer as a commander to make Demonic Pact a creature then using clones to make multiple on the field at once. It’s the only enchantment in the deck so I tutor it out then start the process, it’s fun to balance the massive benefits and obviously the lose the game triggers on each of the different pacts.
I have "Death Match" as a pet card, almost in every deck that has Black, and usually is a card that give me some kind of control on the right deck, like my Kinzu, where it doesn't matters that much if my creatures dies, but sometimes it reeeeeally plays against me, like in my slimefoot and squee reanimator, where my playgroup usually focus on give that -3/-3 to my saprolings, making my commander kinda useless, but that doesn't make me take it out of the deck... I still love that card so much... guess it's a toxic relationship...
I love mana flare and heartbeat of spring in my Animar deck.
I built Animar to be a cascade deck. And it naturally reduces mana cost so when I double my mana I can pay for more mana pips.
The card is interesting because in my experience I have people all clamoring to take advantage of the mana I gave them turn 3-5 and no one really looks at me. I only need one turn to pop off. Because by nature of the deck I can cast 4-8 spells on turn 4 or 5.
I will say it's my true EDH deck because I only want to pop off once and take a 5 minute turn and cast 7 spells. And after that if someone combos or kills me that's all I wanted. I do not play for win loss ratio, I play to sow chaos and see crazy sequences. So for my play style I love mana flare
My favourite risky card is Descent into Avernus! Makes everyone pick up the pace really fast, the combo players start trying to go through their deck as fast as possible, the midrangey deck try to switch gears into an aggresive mode and whenever someone even tries to heal themselves they instantly become a target.
All the while I'm sitting there happily storming with my Ob nixilis deck, using all the card he exiles and then some!
FINALLY Gnarlback Rhino getting the respect it deserves! I have a gruul auras deck and it's in there, Ivy works perfectly and my Neyith deck did too. I'm always trying to fit it in builds
Having played a lot of group/bear hug decks that harm my opponents for taking advantage of my kindness, the downsides are only really downsides in regular decks for some of these cards. Given the vast amount of cards in mtg, most downsides can not so secretly be upsides.
I haven’t heard played it, but a risky card played against me that worked very well was Dual Nature in the new Etali to get extra ETB triggers every time they recast or blinked Etali from the token copy that provided so much more value than the rest of the players could.
I love keen duelist in my Rowan, Scion of War deck with a demon subtheme. I often will flip some nasty 6-8 drop demon, and even if my opponent flips a big nasty, it reduces the cost of my spells I cast that turn...