Grounding for Inverters Part 3: Getting Along With The Grid [UPDATED!]
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- This video is part 3 of a series. [UPDATED Version]
Part 1: The basics of grounding and bonding.
Part 2: Grounding and bonding for off-grid solar inverters.
Part 3: Grounding and bonding for grid assisted solar inverters, and using transfer switches to supply power to your existing house outlets.
Contents Of Part 3
00:00 - intro
01:43 - dynamic bonding
07:34 - no bonding
10:22 - Common neutral
11:58 - transfer switches
13:31 - summary
Grounding & Bonding For Inverters playlist
• Grounding & Bonding Fo...
Reliance Transfer Switch video
• Pro/Tran2 Transfer Swi...
Product Links:
Reliance Transfer Switch: amzn.to/49Lp1XR
Klein Tools RT110 Outlet Tester: amzn.to/3QBuNCH
Klein Tools MM325 Multimeter: amzn.to/3QTQgIs
Hopefully, you find these videos helpful.
I use affiliate links and get a small commission if you buy so I can keep making these videos. This doesn't change the price you pay.
These videos are for educational purposes only. I’m not an electrician or electical engineer.
Solar projects should be performed by a qualified electrician. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Common neutral makes so much sense
I agree. It should be the standard.
Well done sir. Well done.
Very well explained!!!!!! Thank You
Glad you liked it
great video series ! thanks so much for the clear and simple explanation of this.topic
I found your video most helpful - I have a Powmr Hybrid inverter 120v 3K 24V and it only has a L1 and N out - I do not have it connected to utility so I connected the ground to the ground rod which is in my garage and at the outlet I bridge the ground to the Neutral before I did that I made sure that with everything running including all inline breakers that there was no continuity or Voltage between the Neutral and the Ground - after that I connected my Tesla Mobile connector and the Ground fault is gone now - and it actually charging the tesla at 8 AMPS - 12 is the max - but just the fact that is working is a huge plus before that I would get a ground fault immediately after connecting. Thank you very much for your videos - I do agree that they should have a common Neutral hopefully in the future they build hybrid inverters that have that feature , I do not plan to connect it to Utility for Charging so it should be fine. In the future I plan to get a Subpanel and use the bonding from Ground to Neutral that comes with the subpanel, I have watch other videos including one by EG4 and by far your video seem to be the most professionally done, what a difference! I am new subscriber and will watch the rest of your videos.
Awesome!
Thanks for update 👍
Excelent video…..My house does not have a gorund wire at all. Only a neutral and L1-L2 . I wan to feed L1 and neutral coming from a power bank (Battery-Inverter) to the buss bars and neutral to the neutral bar in the neutral bar. Of course I have a double breaker that cuts the L1 and L2 feed off the grid when the power bank or the inverter is feeding the home circuitr. I am not in the USA. An electritian recommended a 3 phase breaker taht will not not only have L1 and L2 from the grid but also de neutral phase.
thank you so much...
Excellent
Great video. I am using a single circuit transfer switch to my furnace. Line power on one side and a floating neutral inverter generator on the other side of transfer switch. Bonding is in my main panel and if I understand correctly the neutral from generator is bonded by tying the load neutral and main panel nuetral together . This way I am following rule of bonding in one place only. Generator only used during power outages.
Than you again for the most informative video I have seen to date on this subject.
Hi @johnboy9211
1. Make sure the inverter is made to be able to connect to the grid. Does it have a grid AC in? In Grounding & bonding part 2, I cover some types of inverters to not grid connect.
2. I'm assuming you are in the US? Is the furnace 120v or 240v?
What I meant was I have a small generator with a floating neutral (inverter type generator.). I want to take the output of Generator to a transfer switch . Line power on one side of switch and generator on other side. According to what I see and read, the neutral from load , line and generator should be tied together.
Because there is no bonding at generator and current seeking its source , that should work. Its a 120 volt 15 amp generator. I don't own a wall mounted battery powered invertor. Thx for answering my comment and your videos need to get out to more people. Very very informative.
My situation would be your video Part 3 . Time 14:50. Where you have invertor . That would be my generator.
@@johnboy8211 Yes, that should work fine. All neutrals end up at the house's main panel neutral buss bar. The furnace's Neutral wire should already be connected to the panel's Neutral buss. You're just connecting the generator neutral to the same buss bar.
The Line (hot) from the generator will go through typically a SPDT switch that lets you choose between generator and grid. There are a number of these single breaker transfer switches out there. I used an EZ generator transfer switch when I first started learning about this, Then upgraded to the 6 circuit Pro/Tran
Perfect ! Thx again.@@ReelClearMediaLLC
Watched this whole series, and appreciate all the info. Having some issues with my growatt 3000 lvm 24. It’s in a van conversion so it can’t have a permanent NG bond. When using shore power everything is fine. When off shore power and using inverter I’m getting the 40v on G to N and 60v on G to L. I tried the jumper line between the N in/out and while it did turn off the “reverse polarity” light in my paneltronics breaker panel I’m still getting the same voltage readings and fault light in my three prong outlet tester. Any idea what my issue is and how to fix it?
The N in/out ground won't help in a mobile install, as it uses the N-G bond in the house.
You have to add a N-G bond only when you're NOT on shore power, but when you're on shore power, not have this new bond (or you'll have two bonds and voltage on your ground).
Some people do this with a relay that creates a bond when there is no shore power, then breaks the bond when shore power is connected. Search youtube for videos on this.
It's also possible to wire up a bond when you are on inverter power, and manually remove the bond when on shore power, but it doesn't help if you are on shore power and the shore power goes out.
Great Content. I need help..
On an isolated farm with no power utility infrastructure. Only a very old generator and a newly bought Inverter, solar and battery system.
The Generator has no protection circuitry only the two terminals for Neutral and live(L1). The inverter AC out is permanent bonded. Unable to remove.
I want to primarily run off the Inverter solar power. This system gets me through the entire day and night without running out. But in the event that the weather is really bad.. I want to be able to feed the generator into the inverter's AC input so that it can charge the batteries and at the same time supply the house load. Therefore, when the generator is switched off again there is enough power to sustain through out the night at least by means of the 5KWH lithium battery.
First off I will test if the inverter accepts this generator power. Then secondly I was thinking to have an unbonded generator (neutral floating) feeding into the inverter AC input. At the generator we have a 3 core cable - ground wire is connected only to the chassis of the generator and not bonded at this position. Then this generator cable runs to the inverter AC input. What is confusing is how I should wire the earth and where to be bonded. So at the inverter AC side there are only 5 Terminals which is as follow:
[AC in(N & E Unbonded)] LN E LN[Ac out(N & E bonded)].
To run the inverter AC output to the house is straight forward. It's bonded at the AC out and we run these wires to the main panel inside the house and we keep the 3 wires separate without any earth bonds up stream. But how should We go about to treat the Generator's power source and where it's earth should be bonded in this circuit?? I am literally breaking my brain on this one.
I just need to get the circuit wired correctly so that it is safe in the event of a ground fault that someone would be protected.
ALSO - to ask a question related to your video. all through out the video animations I can tell that there are two(2) different power sources and both these power sources's Neutral wires are always linked either directly or by way of the Earth neutral bond. So what happens if you have for simplicity sake took two power sources actively feeding different circuit loads and you just put a jumper to connect both of these different supplies' neutral wires? would you not cause some electrical issues?
A few points here. You may have already done some of this, but I'm trying to understand all of the components.
On the generator, measure continuity between Neutral and the case to be sure it isn't bonded. Is there an earth or ground lug anywhere on the generator?
I'm not quite clear on the terminals on the inverter. How do you know that the AC in is bonded but not the output? That seems unusual. What make and model of inverter is it?
Thank you for your videos. I am using a Xantrex 2000 Watt inverter which has the ground and neutral bonded and is not easily removed. The transfer switch is a Generac. In the Generac the switch only switches the Line and not the neutral. The neutral is hard wired from the generator/ inverter to the main panel neutral and the ground is also hard wired through the Generac. Is it safe to not connect the ground wire from the Xantrex to the Generac transfer switch? As a test, I connected the transfer switch to the Xantrex through the GFCI receptacle on the front of the inverter. The GFCI will trip when connecting the ground wire, but works if the ground is not connected from the inverter. I believe this is because the GFCI senses a lower resistance path back to the source (the inverter). If the ground is not connected from the inverter to the transfer switch, the neutral ground bond is supplied at the main panel and you have equal current entering and leaving the GFCI receptacle. I am a little scared to connect the inverter to the transfer switch from the terminals in the back of the inverter until I know that it is safe. I am planning to draw no more than 15 Amps from the inverter at 120 Volts and I am not connecting the Xantrex to "shore power". After thinking about this a lot and doing some research, I feel that as long as I use the GFCI outlet which is rated for 20 Amps, this should work. But I would love to hear what you have to say. Thanks again.
When you add a ground wire to the bonded inverter, there are now two return paths on your circuit (see video). The GFCI trips because the current on the Neutral doesn't match the current on the Line (because some of the return current is now on the ground wire).
Since you can't easily remove the bond in the inverter, one way to fix this is to use a transfer switch that can also switch Neutral. These can be pricy, though.
Since you are only running 15 amps, you can use a small transfer switch like the EZ Generator Switch. It can be wired to switch Line and Neutral, and is less than $100.
amzn.to/48O68li
Thank you. I found that if I plugged in a outlet tester into a receptacle that went through the transfer switch, that it indicated that the receptacle was wired correctly when it was running off of the inverter. So it is similar to your last example. The neutral ground bond was supplied in the main box. I am thinking that it would be safe if I used the GFCI outlet of the inverter since I think that you can use GFCIs in situations were there is no ground. Can you suggest safety checks that I can do to make sure that there are no hidden hazardous situations. Thanks again for your videos. The videos have provided the best explanation about neutral ground bonding. Also, I would like to add that my setup is for emergency back up. Normally we are using the grid. I do have two of the switches that you mentioned. I'm not sure how I would interface the switch using the Generac transfer switch. I would probably need to have an electrician install it, even though I know how to do it so that I would stay compliant with the code, permits, and inspections. @@ReelClearMediaLLC
@@richardphillips2405 Most outlet testers just tell you if there is a bond. You have two bonds in your system, so it shows OK. However two bonds can cause loops and problems.
I wouldn't use the Generac switch at all with the EZ-Generator switch. Just wire the EZ-generator to the circuit you want to run and run an extension cord to the inverter to the EZ-Generator.
hi i want to bound my solar inverter which is solis 6kw hybrid chinese branch here in pakistan 2 wires came from grid hot(230v) and neutral so can i bound on main dp only like you told rule number 1 and any other changes made ? inverter also have PE port on both Grid in side and load out side...
Please explain and advance love from paksitan.
Hi RCM. Very informative video indeed. I recently installed a Growatt 3000TL LVM inverter. I am considering to bridge the neutrals (In & Out) as explained in your video. Do you have any reference or whitepaper that stipulates that this specific model will not blow up? (SPF3000TLHVM-24 - GROWATT 3KW INVERTER 24V). As I understand the South African standard (please note that I'm not an electrician), we can bridge the neutrals, if we can isolate completely from the grid during a power outage, this we can achieve with a contactor at the meter. looking forward to your response.
This video was based on North America, where we bond at the main panel after the meter from the grid. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with standards in the rest of the world. It seems hard to get information from GroWatt. It may work, but I don't know.
You could likely use this as an "off-grid" backup system, by using a transfer switch. You have to determine if your Growatt is bonded or not at it's output. Use a transfer switch (DPDT) to switch the input of a breaker panel between inverter and grid, and don't hook up the grid to the inverter input. The transfer switch needs to switch neutral and line. Even then, check with someone in your area who knows how the local electric is bonded and grounded.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC our supply from the utility is bonded. I have verified the bonding at the output of the inverter this morning, it is only bonded during normal utility supply, when a power outage occurs, the bonding is broken. I will then rather use a Normally Closed relay to re-bond at the output of the inverter during an utility supply outage. Thanking you kindly, regards, Brian
@@briandebrouwer5829Thanks for the information. That sounds good. I'm assuming you power the relay from the grid, and it only bonds when the grid goes out?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC that is correct, thx a million
Unless i missed it you did not cover what to do when using 2 mpp solar inverters in split phase with grid input. Do i remove the bond screw in the 2nd inverter or will it work as it comes from factory letting the ats manage the bond in both inverters. Thanks
I'm not sure with MPP solar... check the MPP forums, or DIY solar forums to see what others have done.
I want to see if this works with the new EG4 6000XP off grid inverter. According to one of the comments on the DiySolarForum, "The 6000XP is a common-neutral architecture. It does *not* do dynamic bonding. Either the static bond relay must be enabled or there must be a bond external to the inverter. (Never both)"
That's what it says in the manual. You can download that from EG4electronics.com. If you are using a grid assisted install, it makes bonding simple... just use the existing bond in your home's main service panel.
I'm considering upgrading to the 6000XP at some point. Having all the switchgear, breakers, disconnect, etc built in will really simplify and clean up my install.
Great video. Unfortunately the common neutral is illegal in many countries. If you want to run in island mode, you need to rely on your own neutral. This is a more complex scenario where you use the grid neutral when there is grid, and the internally bonded neutral when using the island mode. If the inverter does it all its great but if it doesn't? You could work in this scenario in another video if you want.
Thanks for the information. These videos are only related to grid in North America, since we bond N-G in the main breaker after the meter.
May i ask something please
I just want to make sure.
As i understand
1.If my inverter does not have neutal-ground bounding inside, i just bond it outside right ? and it will work for all cases.
2. If my hybrid inverter has neutral-groud bonding on the input side, i should not make neutral on the output side and ground touching together (bonding) right ?
1. In some cases...you can bond at a panel after the inverter. Usually, an inverter that has an AC input can be bonded (if it isn't bonded already internally).
Some inverters should never be bonded, as they will burn up, and can be dangerous. Usually, these have AC outlets on the inverter instead of a terminal block.
2. If your inverter is bonded on the input side, and you bond on the output side, you create two bonds, which causes current to flow on the ground wire... very dangerous.
Some inverters have dynamic bonding to fix this problem... watch the whole grounding and bonding playlist...there is a lot of information in there.
Which category is an EcoFlow Delta Pro? My tester shows it has a floating neutral. What to do to make it grid-assisted?
I haven't owned one of those, so I don't know specifics. There are multiple videos of people using transfer switches or interlock switches to power their houses.
What exactly are you hoping to use it for?
I saw your video about “grid-assisted” and it’s what I was looking for. Not off-grid and not grid-tied. I have an EcoFlow Delta Pro and it’s a floating ground battery/inverter unit. I want to use it like a generator into a transfer switch and I would also like to have the grid be able to charge it or have solar input also. The implications for neutral bonding gets complicated.
You mention RV's and boats. Common neutral is a bad solution for those right? Because the main panel bonding only exists when you are on shore power.
Exactly. the new EG4 6000XP is common neutral, but lets you turn on an internal N/G bond with software. The problem is, you have to remember to reset it when you use shore power.
An alternative might be to wire up a relay to create a bond when you aren't on shore power.
Victron and some other inverters are a better solution. They aren't common neutral, but dynamically bonded.
Question, i have my mpp solar inverter running as a ups, i have it plugged in a gfci outlet and when i have hooked up to a direct load or sub panel everything works fine, but when i hook it up to the transfer swith to the main panel it trips my gfci outlet for the input. how do i keep it from tripping? i removed the ground neutral bond in the inverter.
I'm not sure how everything is wired up... Could you go item by item in order for input and output for when it works, and again item by item for when it doesn't.
example... main breaker out to gfci outlet. Gfci out to input of inverter, etc.
Main panel to gfci outlet, gfci outlet to inverter input, inverter to generator transfer switch, generator transfer switch ground neutral to main panel, line one line two to the loads etc.
Inverter is mpp solar lv6048. The neutral bond in the inverter has been removed,
When the inverter is plugged into the gfci and the output is wired to an outlet everything is good, when I plug the inverter output to generator transfer switch it trips the gfci outlet
This happened to me as well due to the internal bond. It ruined my gfci outlet. I ended up plugging it into a regular non gfci protected outlet.
@@natesoffroad I removed the internal bond though, thought that would fix it. But still trips. I can’t plug the inverter into the transfer switch back to the main while I have the inverter plugged in for charging the battery purposes
@@timboe1848 When you say "the output is wired to an outlet everything is good"... This means a separate outlet not tied in to house wiring? It sounds like the problem is at the transfer switch.
Does the transfer switch bond Ground and Neutral?
Does the transfer switch switch neutral, or only hot lines?
HOWdy R-C-M, ...
Thanks
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
Thanks COOP! Cool avatar... what, me worry?
Hello..appreciate if you could advise possibility of N and E terminal bond on Deye inverter. Will it harm to inverter. As I have issue on using EV car charger ..showing as ground fault
Not familiar with a Deye inverter.
What AC out voltages do you get L to N, L to G. and N to G?
Do you have grid connected to inverter?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC L to N - 230 V, L to G - 79 V and N to G - 81 V ..thanks in advance
@@ReelClearMediaLLC yes..i have connected Grid to inverter. If there is grid power supply to INV...my EV charger working fine..once grid power interrupt..EV charger stop charging and show GND fault
230volts...what country are you in?
What brand /make of inverter is it?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Burma 🇲🇲...inverter brand is Deye and made in China.
What about 2 of those EG4 3000's in series to allow for 240 or i20 in it's own inverter panel not connected to the grid..Or two in parallel..Thanks though, your videos are helpful, and REEL CLEAR, which is exceptionally rare..
I can't seem to find any info on the EG4 3000 bonding. I'm not sure what they have.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC There is a screw inside the case that creates a neutral ground bond, or you can choose to remove the screw and bond the neutrals and grounds in a circuit breaker box...I talked to signature solar today, going with the 6000 XP..Instead of another 3000..I have the 3000 for some rental cabins, the unit is very good, but wasn't sure about the parallel or series situation..The EG4 6000 XP is made by Luxpower, and they have been running in Africa for 5 years with an extremely good track record..I looked through the data, extremely impressive for the price..Thanks though..
@@realeyesrealizereallies6828 thanks! As long as they aren't connected to the grid, I would take out the screws of both, and bond at the panel after the inverters. Check out part 2 of the grounding and bonding series.
Double check everything with a meter!
@@realeyesrealizereallies6828 I'm considering getting the 6000XP as well. The built-in switchgear is nice too.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Ya, it will be nice not dealing with the "T" class fuses and And the various breakers to isolate everything..Just placed my order ten minutes ago..I got 3,700 watts of new solar panels too for $1,450 bucks, delivered..Which is pretty damn good..Different company though..
i have N-G issues with a growatt 6kw
What kind of issues? What model inverter?