As an architectural engineer who long ago specialized in cold rolled steel, i can tell you that dual vapor barriers is asking for trouble both from a corrosion standpoint and an insulation standpoint. The synthetic stucco industry went through 1000s of lawsuits in the 70s and 80s over this basic issue. Dual vapor barriers trap moisture because no wall is perfect. If the moisture gets in, its game over. In the case of these vans, there are usually dozens of penetrations in an interior vapor barrier. How the steel stud industry solves this is by wicking the wall to give the moisture a way out. My recommendation is to go talk to a steel stud expert and maybe an automotive engineer (cars are insulated all the time) and they can give definitive answers.
Condensation on my 9 year old van drains/runs down the inside of the van walls into a cavity (Which has been sprayed with wax-oil then through drainage holes on to the road. I was used as a mobile workshop before I had it.
Great point. It also matters what climate the van will be used in, and if you have enough (dry) heat to keep the interior surfaces above the air’s dew-point. I work in boats, which face the same challenges (and oddly never seem to get parked in the desert). It’s long been recognized in boats that allowing some outside (cold-side) air to circulate freely behind the thermal envelope is the key to scavenging moisture out from within the insulation layer and from the backs of the interior wall panels. It’s also why house attics are vented… unfortunately it’s VERY hard to achieve this in a class-B van conversion due to space and layout limitations. The best you can do is what’s described in this video: work hard to minimize the air (moisture) movement into the insulation. By choosing your materials carefully, then operating the van with appropriate moisture management you will minimize the chances of the wall panels developing moisture-related problems. That will also mean managing humidity levels in the van - especially during the heating season - and being deliberate about periodically drying it out (parking in the sun with the windows cracked)
@@nautamaran Just to note, the big difference between a boat and van is that in a van it is possible to let moisture out the bottom (ie wicking) and let gravity do the work.
You almost need a super insulation material that provide the thermal insulation and directs moisture in one direction or plane. Imagine that.. A one way moisture barrier.
Finally an honest video about insulating a van and the reason why some choices are made. Thanks so much for the honesty. I've been busting my head about vapour and corrosion. As a mechanical engineer I almost thought I was a failing because I couldn't crack the theory. Now someone with a PhD in the same field says that he doesn't know either, it makes me feel better again. Also, only the best professors I had said "I don't know the answer" instead of doing some vague half baked explanation.
As an architect that designed essentially the same building in all climates (a big box retail store) where to put the vapor barrier is complex and there is no one answer for every location. Minneapolis is entirely different than Miami. Buildings don't move so you could come up with different strategies. Vans move. So you cannot have different strategies. You have to pick a compromising best solution. You installed the blue denim in our van. It works and I can't complain. The Hushmat installation fully adhered to the outer metal skin as much as possible whether combined with blue denim, wool, or thinsulate is probably key to keeping down condensation directly on the metal wall. Hushmat installations typically show incomplete patches on the outer skin to sound deaden the metal and not full coverage as ARV attempts. I see the insulation as touch comfort considering the amount of window glass to deal with and not so much energy efficiency. What I appreciate more in an ARV is the sound deadening properties of your solution, in having two previous vans I can tell you it is a major difference in an overnight stay in a Walmart parking lot combined with insulated window shading that blocks light. Whether wool, blue denim, or Thinsulate, I wonder which is the better sound deadener or if it makes a difference.
The problem I see with a moisture barrier is it is almost impossible to make it completely air tight due to the shapes of the van. And warm moist air is what you're trying to avoid contacting the cold steel outer wall. Then if you have a layer of plastic making your wall cavity 'nearly airtight' then the water won't be able to escape easily. So to be effective it has to stop 100% of moist air getting through. Even if you do make it completely air tight, your'e trapping air from the day you've done the install inside the wall along with it's moisture content and you could end up with a cycle of moisture condensing and evaporating in the trapped air cavity. There's a couple of options that I've been thinking about: 1) Add localised moisture barriers using bubble wrap or similar. Seal up large flat panels with almost no air in them. Much like where you add the noise deadening material. I'd use bubble wrap (plain or reflectix) so it has an air gap to stop condensation. That will reduce greatly the amount of moisture forming on the walls, while ensuring you're not trapping air in the wall cavity. 2) If you use a traditional inner wall vapour barrier, force air through the wall cavities to dry it out, and vent outside the van. If you're in a cold climate you might need to heat it. Thus expelling any condensation that forms and drying out the cavities. This might also have the advantage of expelling warm air in summer before it enters the living area. Personally in my van I used a hydrophobic recycled plastic insulation and didn't add a moisture barrier. Moisture does form on the walls, but it also dries out happily. After seeing just how much moisture forms I would definitely consider those options above now, although saying that the moisture hasn't been a problem either. No mould anywhere yet, even in our cold wet New Zealand winters.
Eat Sleep Van All cars (vans) have weep holes at the base of the structure to allow moisture to drip down and out. Manufacturers assume that some water gets in, for example through the roll up/down window mechanism in the doors, and must have a way to escape to avoid excessive rust. Some such designs fail and one can see examples of particular 40-year-old car models that have all rusted in the same location. Other designs are more successful and suffer far less (or no) rust even after many decades of exposure. Also, the passenger version of any of these vans (and every passenger car) is already similarly insulated, including a vapor barrier, from the factory. The vapor barrier is just that: a hindrance, not an impermeable defense. But the basic automotive design has already accounted for moisture on the inside skin of the vehicle.
alliejr yes great point, I should have mentioned that. And it’s a good reason to not use absorbing insulation material, so it can drain out. It also means there are air holes for that cavity.
@@alliejr My van has weep holes in the cavity at the bottom of the van wall which has been sprayed with wax-oil. Condensation just runs down the inside of the van wall into the bottom cavity then through the weep holes out onto the road.
Trapping air from installation day would be totally irrelevant. Calculate the volume of the wall cavity, pick a humidity and go through the calculations. The number will be inconsequential.
If you live in humid environments the vapor barrier should be on the outside of the insulation, In moderate and dry environments it’s the opposite then if an air conditioner is used that humidity buildup would easily be dried from the air flow and normal ac process
I had purchased an Airstream Sprinter where mice, lots of them, had used the fiberglass insulation as habitat! As a result, I took out all the furniture, electronics and plumbing - down to the bare van walls - and sprayed closed cell foam much like is used in Sprinters used as refrigeration vans to deliver frozen goods. The van was reassembled and now takes less energy to cool and heat... When I met with the team at ARV several years ago, they were using recycled denim - which, like wool and fiberglass, are very appealing to mice to set up shop. I would be wary of using anything other than foam, preferably closed cell.
Nice video I met some folks from Canada last month heading south for the winter they had there ram promaster sprayed with linex and they said it works very well no condensation at all
Finally, a video that has the facts in a simple package. Thank you. Really enjoyed the "nerdy" stuff. I hope to do a van conversion soon. I'm not a big fan of vapour barriers. I think we can all agree that water is tricky stuff. My concern with barriers is that "if" water ingresses into this space it is then "trapped", forever. That's when the problems start. I believe in a system that breathes. That's it in a nut shell really! Like the guy indicated "you're damned if you do & damned if you don't"!
In a van. Water collected or trapped inside wall cavities will ALWAYS managed to dry out. Van metallic panellings are already a “conductive” material, as we learned it attract heat. And heat will dry out any moist it contacts with. Right?
Than you ARV, especially Mike and Fred, for this great explanation about van insulation. The part about vapor barrier/retarder on inside walls was especially enlightening.
How does this apply to northern climates like Canada, Alaska, and our Midwestern winters we have here where it routinely gets down below 0F? The build I have in mind is much more Spartan than what you build- I just want to insulate , put in a vapor barrier, and some sort of moisture resistant ceiling, walls, and sub-floor. I plan on using mine as a mobile stealth basecamp for my backpacking/canoe trips, as well as overnight ice fishing trips to other parts of the midwest......I'd want to be able to haul my 4 wheeler in back. I also want to use it for waterfowl season (we field hunt)- basically have a place to park at a corn field entrance and set up a couple cots inside- take a nap, then go set up decoys, hunt, then come back and cook a brunch before heading home. That's my vision anyway, lol.
Wood stoves and Espar type heaters will dry and keep dry a van better than anything else. After that you want to create a thermal break at every thermal bridge.. do that with firm closed cell foam strips. Then control air exchange into the structure of the van with controlled venting. You can divert some of the forced air from an Espar actually into the open structure, behind the walls to keep thing dry (and remove snow ). Did this on a T1N.. worked perfect.
Moisture not only comes from people breathing and sweating (ever notice how quick car windows for up when you jump in during a cold spell?) Also remember to use a fan when showering and cooking. I do agree with your outcome and have been banging that drum for years - nobody is going to cause rust inside unless there's an large leak and trapped water. However, there's a really good chance you will develop mold, mildew and stench. Use the ceiling fan! There is one item that I don't agree with and it's really a pet peeve of mine - you aren't as bad as most but you could definitely cut back to less than half of whatever brand of gooey tar backed foil you're using. In the back of that van it can only serve to purposes - reduce/eliminate metal panel 'ringing', 'beer canning', etc. That stuff is a huge heat sink. Stuck to the skin of a van in the sunlight it will get hot and stay hot until the sun wanes and outside air cools. Inside, the a/c has to work so much harder to transfer the heat that stuff is holding to the outside.
It was particularly interesting to hear you say after opening up many vans with a variety of insulation materials and a variety of techniques you have never, never ever, found corrosion or oxidation (rust)... wow, that’s amazing. That may be because regardless of technique there is always some air circulation (exchange or movement of air) between the metal outer shell and the inner finished surfaces... in other words: the walls are leaking air... either from inside or outside, it really doesn’t matter. My overall experience in window manufacturing and greenhouse manufacturing and construction and boating combine to conclude the issue is allowing the unit to heat up and dry out... either occasionally or intentionally... it might be advantageous to actually consider heating the air space and power ventilation of the space through planned capillary channels ... using small computer fans inside the walls to exhaust warm moisture laden air... under floors as well as walls... to drive off the moisture purposely. Greenhouses do this by cranking up heat inside and opening ridge vents to drive off moisture and humidity... window designs do this by adding weep holes as well as using dissidents... masonry buildings also incorporate weeps... attics in conventional home construction also ventilate . Biggest issue seems to be window and glass areas for heat loss, heat gain and condensation issues... glass is actually rated for conduction rather than resistance.. replacement with acrylic or polycarbonate would improve performance especially if done as double glazed windows... insulated window coverings are practical solution. The driver cab section is problematic because of the large amount of glass... sectioning off the driver compartment, although reducing living space somewhat, helps with heat loss and heat gains.. a sliding door between areas also increases security. Your newer BBox design solve may of these issues.
I have been going around in circles in my mind trying to figure out the best solution to insulating a van. As you point out all the "ribs etc" are all connected to the outside and bring the cold in. My base vehicle is a Mercedes Sprinter LWB. It has done 75K miles 9 years old and was a mobile workshop with work benches, Draws and shelves. Which I stripped out it was just lined with a simple solid nylon 3/16 inch thick nylon screwed in place for aesthetic reasons. . The only rust I found was behind the rear wheel arches underneath the factory installed white sealant. The people who converted the van to a workshop sprayed into the bottom van wall cavity with wax-oil and that was it. Condensation must form on the interior of the walls then drain out along the bottom of the walls onto the road. There is no rust on any of the walls other than behind the wheel arch. I am going to use recycled plastic bottle insulation. It is plastic bottles which have been spun into fine thread then formed into a matt. It should be water resistant and any water that does form can carry on down on the inside of van then out through the drainage holes at the bottom. I will put a vapour barrier in the roof of the van if possible to direct the vapour to the van's inside wall Wish I had found your channel earlier.
We went with Rockwool in wall cavities we could get to without destroying interior finishes in our 2006 Sprinter LTV. Living in CO high-country, we haven't figured out how to insulate the floor...
I'd say one the insides of the van the metal is likely treated with a rust proofing finish. If you damage that coating in anyway while installing stuff then moisture could be an issue. Someone mentioned drainage holes at the lowest points of the vehicle. Just wanted to chime in, using hydrophobic insulation with a vapor barrier, mixed with holes at the lowest point for drainage makes the most sense to me from a longevity standpoint. This also prevents mold and mildew due to the condensation having someplace to escape. As for specific types of insulation, it's climate dependent. The insulation needed in December in say the southern USA is far different than the insulation needed in northern Canada. Where I live, I wouldn't use R7 wool, by building code houses need to be need 20 on the walls and 50 on the roof. So I'd be hard pressed to go less than half of that, specially since I'm restricted insulation thickness. Which will determine the type of insulation needed. Higher the R values = less money to be comfortable during winter. As far as summer goes and staying cool, cover those windows with a white or silver backing. I can't stress this enough. The idea is to reflect the radiation away from the inside of the van. Not painting the van a dark color helps as well, not as much as the window reflectives though due to the insulation previously mentioned. You can test this during the summer easily, put a reflective blind up on all the windows during the night after the building has cooled down on the inside. Then measure the change in temperature over the day vs not putting the reflective blind up at night. A house or apartment will stay shockingly cold throughout the day without the sun pumping radiation through the windows.
Suggest using Azdel panels after vapor barrier with low thermal transfer fasters. For added thermal protection consider offering dual pane European acrylic windows.
This B box is my dream Motorhome. I have been thinking of doing one and having the removable box so I can upgrade the chassis cab but retain the expensive ‘home’ section. This B Box would sell well in the U.K. & European Market. It’s head and toes better than other manufacturers in Europe are offering. Great job! I so want one here in the U.K.
Have you taken a tour through the Boeing factory in Renton Wa? They've done a lot of work on insulating aluminum aircraft for both noise and heat, taking condensation into account. They have to take 150 sweating bodies from 120 degrees F at sea level, to -60 degrees F at 40,000 feet and back multiple times each day. Boeing uses fiberglas encased in mylar, not glued to the aluminum body. The condensation forms on the interior of the fuselage, outside the insulation, and is channeled down below the luggage bay. You can hear it cascading down the side walls during some phases of the flight.
I have the advantage of altitude and low humidity which is a great benefit in Nellybelle, my 93 Dodge Grand Caravan LE (the L is for Luxury) in terms of moisture control. I even ran a Mr. Buddy propane heater without moisture issues before upgrading to forced air diesel fired dry heat. I wonder if the moisture solution for larger vans in more humid climates might be better addressed thru advanced air handling but I am no expert on air conditioning systems for those vehicles so I have no idea. FWIW, I have whatever insulation came standard on Nellybelle and full glass. My solution for the cold is simple. More heat. I've got way more than I need in my current heater. I can easily adjust my altitude upward to escape worst of summer heat but I will one day be running an A/C off solar.
Closed cell foam is an excellent insulator because it's a good vapor barrier in itself in addition to having a similar R value to Thinsulate. My guess as to why ARV doesn't use foam is difficulty of installing and its permanence. It can't easily be removed in the event that disassembly becomes necessary for a repair.
@@OMGWTFLOLSMH With all the resources they have at their disposal,, you would think that they would’ve come up with a device that would put pressure against the outside skin while the foam is being sprayed Until it stops expanding and cures so the outside skin does not get pushed out but instead the foam pushes inward
My kingdom for a thermal break! Im an architect and this is key in insulation, and possibly sound deadening. In addition it sounds like one needs more ventilation (solution for tents, but a huge thermal loss issue) and/or a dehumidifier inside to fight interior moisture build up.
I love the confidence of Americans! :) The guy doesn't even know how to pronounce his own last name, why would I believe him how to insulate a Sprinter van? Overall they try to treat this van like a building. A Sprinter van is not a buliding. It's not air-tight and it's not supposed to be. Insulating the doors the way they did is wrong. Insulating a Sprinter van door the way they do is wrong - and, no, there's no 2nd opinion because there are some facts: Fact #1: The Sprinter van is used as an RV oftentimes, but it's a van. It's designed for work. Fact #2: The lock isn't waterproof, Fact #3: the handle isn't waterproof. Fact #4: There will be water getting into the door. Mercedes deals with this by accepting the water entering the door. They have created a path the water can go inside the door and there's an exit for the water to get out again. Simple test: Take a water hose and spray the handle/lock of the door. Then check the inside of the door. Long story short: Insulating the door they way they did does not prevent water from entering, but it prevents water from leaving. As a result the insulation material gets wet. Depending on the material used, you're either creating a wet sponge covered by unprotected steel. Or you have a piece of hydrophobic material surrounded by water - again covered by unprotected steel and the vapor seal prevents the water from finding an alternate way out of the door. The vapor barrier doesn't make it more trivial. Depending on the climate you've created a ticking rust and mold time bomb. In Southern CA or AZ you may get away with this. In an area with actual seasons, you're cutting the lifespan of your Sprinter van at least in half.
So, I’m going to guess this is a taboo question... I see that Sprinters are the big deal in Van world, but I keep seeing videos talking about the number of repairs and cost. Compared to a Transit, surely someone has data on actual reliability? I also hear that diesel is going to face greater scrutiny over the next few years? If you folks have any opinions, I would love to hear... thanks!
IMO the sprinter is a better quality van, better driving experience. If you're not a fan boy of German diesel vehicles and you either don't do your own mechanic work or have a good independent shop your first trip to the Merc dealership for a repair will leave you reeling. Post 2008 for most people gas represents a better value. But there is an argument it you do a ton of miles, tow, factor in resale in some situations, ect.
alfred e neuman REAL VANLIFER HERE! I can tell you from my own experience having driven transits and pro masters and my own sprinters, the sprinter is all around a better vehicle for a diy camper van. The van itself is easier to work in and around mechanically. The transit and the pro master have their cab situated over the engine which causes all kinds of cramped spaces, making any suspension work or engine work more costly because the labor is lengthier. Again, I know this because I’ve done this work on all three. I have owned two sprinters. They’re glorious to work on. Second. The layout of the van itself is more friendly to living. The transits cab slants back so abruptly it removes a lot of the volume from that area that’s great for storage, the ram has a shelf but it’s not nearly the same size. The rams cab floor is also raised above the load floor, or your house. Look at any pro master with a swivel seat in it. You’ve gotta be 7’ tall for your feet to touch the ground. The seat base isn’t big enough to hide a heater inside. The biggest one isn’t as big as the biggest sprinter. And tbh, if you’re already spending the type of money it takes to build a quality van, you’re really gonna skimp on the van part? To each their own I guess but, I think it says something about a persons intentions when they take the care of buying the proper platform to build on.
DustyCowdog the sprinter also looks better too. Good luck in your search. If you’re in the used market might I suggest the 07-08 years. They both didn’t have DEF systems but they are the same engine as the new model so, there are a lot of parts available and all kinds of upgrades you can do. Lots of aftermarket support. And again, no def.
I used a competitor of Dyna-mat for sound insulation. I covered the wheel wells with it and used it generously on the walls and ceiling. It didn't do jack for road noise. I didn't use it inside the doors and that may have been a big factor. I know that BMW cures their sound deadening materials in an oven after they've been added to the body parts. I was an eyewitness to that. That may be another reason the "dyna-mat" didn't work.
I installed 3M Insulation. Then installed a Radiant 3mm foil barrier over that..Then foil taped all the seams on the inside... I can cool my van down 68 degrees. With nothing but a 6k BTU AC unit on Low and Medium..Which is less then 500 watts.....And it stays that way. Unless I open the doors all the time...But you can hang split curtains to slow it down from escaping. This is in Texas summers..And he is right. I has to install gold foil tinting on the outside of the windows. To prevent the sun light from ever heating the glass up...Some times I cover them on the outside with a Reflectix material. It stops heat transfer from ever starting.
as george from humble road figured out airflow is a big help in this issue he frames everything so it has airflow behind and underneath all the structures as well as insulation thermal barriers and the rest
Saying George figured it out isn’t accurate. I don’t think George invented the idea of air circulation, and you are giving him way more credit than he deserves. As with any type of construction there are different ways to get the job done and some are better than others, and different people are going to subscribe to different methodologies. George believing in a method doesn’t mean he invented it!
Being a worker myself ... I found this helpful and good for thought. I wonder how foam board works? I have a fiberglass high roof (2') and thinkin on the insulation ... I tore the old ceiling out ... whew. Factory had no insulation ... plus ... I wonder if there was a thin layer on the walls of the insulated sheet (1/4" guessing) and then the cavity left open and then a thin sheet of the insulating sheet too on the back side of what is mounted extending over the 1 1/2" of open air (guessing) ... maybe it would solve everything. Thinner the skin to the inside wall fasten area not as good.
Could really use your advice. My gmc Savana hitop has 3 big windows and 6 door windows so a lot of glass. Used noico on floor, rear wheel wells and doors but forgot on the minimal wall space pre mineral wool insulation. Not sure whether add reflectix over the 2-3” mineral wool? The ceiling be fiberglass having 1x4s embedded 9”OC. Have 1” foil faced 2-4’ mineral wool panels thought of utilizing foil facing upwards taking advantage of 3/4” air space between 1x4s. Then with the van having extreme sound system planned covering insulation with perhaps a marine grade acoustic fabric with select wool trim. So is it worth using a noico product on ceiling and wall space? What’s best for covering all windows and lastly should I pull carpet in cab area and do something with the floor, front wheel weland engine dog house. I feel once windows have a good acoustic/thermal covering it will make big difference Look forward to hearing back from you
You need to insulate the whole thing then use reflective over it , have a vent under and up and it will cool . Have u heard of rockwool and cold cell.? Use that the a 4 inch pipe wrap on the beams .
A lot of people think since mold won’t grow on Thinsulate, why do I care and why do I need a vapor barrier? It doesn’t have to grow on the Thinsulate. it it only has to grow on the organic dust that will inevitably be caught in the Thinsulate. Materials like this attract organic dust like a magnet.
If any organic dust ever gets on the Thinsulate and moisture reaches the surface of the Thinsulate, it will mold even if Thinsulate does not absorb the water. It’s like hydroponic gardening. It would’ve been nice if you had demonstrated that Thinsulate is hydrophobic with an experiment and empirical data from it. I’d like to see it compared to Rockwool boards
Curious to know your take on (semi) rigid foam boards, like polyiso board. Not as flexible obviously, but less expensive and thin sheets can be layered and offset to create a continuous layer insulation.
Hello Mike it was amazing seeing you endorsing these hydrophobic thinsulate type material. As we are also using the same and found it to be most effective in our Indian condition. Happy to see you using the same gives a lot of credibility.👍🏻
It might sound crazy, but what about literally thinking outside of the box? I've always thought about insulating the outside instead, which would have the added benefit of giving you more space inside. I know they've already done it with houses, so it's got to be possible. Some highly insulated European windows would go some way in minimizing heat loss, though I don't know if they build them specifically for vehicles. Anyway, that idea has been in the back of my head for years whenever I think about my dream RV. I've also thought a dehumidifier might be a good call if you have power to spare...
How are you going to attach it so it can withstand constant tropical storm-force winds? Actually I can think of one way of doing it, but I don't think it'd be practical (lapping to the front). I personally think the best thing is to do as they did with the B Box, ditch the prebuilt van shell entirely, use an insulated box for vastly increasing interior volume.
@@nicki8731 In theory it could be whatever shape you want, and it could be "skinned" however you want. Maybe something like monocoque construction would be ideal. The comment was just to get people thinking for the most part and/or to hear if it had already been done.
@@dylanemeraldgrey I believe automotive companies are already making the vans as large as legally possible. If you want to go larger, it's a semi trailer or a box truck. So adding some inches to the outside would probably be illegal.
@@nicki8731 Maybe... There are people who say something can't be done, and they're are people who constantly push the limits. Also, it's not just about the size of the rig, it's about the usable interior space.
Considering that batting of any kind does not get to every surface and there is metal bridging from outer skin to inner surface, I am wondering about spraying LIZARD SKIN (before insulating with some batting). I read that it reduces temp gradient by 10 degrees. And since it is sprayed on all surfaces, it covers both those nooks that batting doesn't get to, and it covers the internal surfaces those metal bridges connect. I would also expect the spray Lizard skin to protect metal and reduce potential for rusting.
@@Russellbeta Condensation is the big problem we've noticed up here in northern New England. A/C naturally lowers humidity, so it's quite beneficial down south.
@@Jollyprez oh right, that makes sense. I've known people who say they have to ventilate 24/7 to avoid condensation issues and I'm not sure if there's a way around it.
@@RussellbetaHELLO! He isn’t taking about the act of heating or cooling the van as being problematic!!! He is talking about insulating in colder climates being more problematic than in warmer climates probably because vans can more easily heat up in a warmer climate and dry the moister in the walls more easily! This video and discussion isn’t about off grid AC solutions being a big drain on the solar battery system and a heater that more conveniently taps into the gas/diesel tank. He is talking about insulation issues in varied climates!!!
We did a follow up video on spray insulation not too long after this video was published, you can find it here: th-cam.com/video/diFOAQgNtYg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3c-QYyf19GZf4o_B
So the barrier u use plastic instead of refletix...i see alot of vans use refletix after they have used thin insulate....this is new for me...love your vans please keep the tech talks and tutorials coming
One type of insulation that was left out is the spray foam. I wonder how it compares to what you showed us. It might also be the solution to convection since it can also cover all metal parts.
I believe most outfitters would recommend staying clear of applying spray foam to the panels. Yes, it keeps moisture out of the insulation, but the trouble with foam is that it will also trap heat against the outer skin, which then expands and creates ripples. The rigid foam also sticks to the skin, which exasperates the rippling. Most noticeable on a van with dark shiny paint which absorbs more solar heating.
Do you plan on offering insulation kits for the Ram Promaster? If not do you have any suggestions of who might offer. I have a 2019 Ram Promaster 2500 159. Thank you.
you mentioned the conductive heat transfer of the structure but you didn't cover the structure points with insulation? How did you stop this heat ttansfer?
Awesome video. Now is it true that 3M says on their thinsulate that the white is actually the vapor barrier and the black is supposed to go up against the metal?
I have cargo sprinter. Would you recommend lizard skin sound/ceramic coat? I was thinking using 1st.the lizard skin 2nd. thermal mat 3rd. Havelock wool 4th. Commercial thermal Wall panel So it's basically 4 layers of insulation.
Have you ever tried spray foam? Seems like it would solve the insulation/ vapor barrier issue as well as getting in all the odd shapes. Can you comment?
Further, some (little but some) spray insulation will always be on the outside of the steel and your plywood wall causing a very slight, but important, thermal break. I wish they had discussed this too. There is an issue with spray foam off gasing if the environmental conditions don't allow the product to cure, but choose the right weather pattern.
I had my 1973 Dodge van spray insulated and it worked great. But that van had fairly thick sheet metal as most vans had in the early 70's. Todays vans, especially the Sprinters, Transits and Promasters have very thin sheet metal. The Sprinter forum is full of stories about folks who spray insulated their vans that caused very noticeable ripples in the sidewall sheet metal. I think it can be done but it must be done carefully to avoid causing distortions in the sheet metal side walls.
@@boxster1970 Todays spray foams that are professionally installed and use a mix of closed cell for the main areas and open cell for the more restricted structural members don't have warping issues.
This was really helpful, thanks! It makes me feel less crazy about the whole subject because as you've explained, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. Guess we're all in a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" phase. Lol.
Those Havelock Wool people hype their product and slam all competing products as toxic, while buying the opinions of most influencers. Glad to see ARV take the high ground.
The best insulation is Areogel blankets. Very high R value. Four times better than Fiberglass and it is naturally hydrophobic. Repels moisture. Putting up a moisture Barrier on a van is only going to slow the moisture transfer, which is what you want. A double Moisture barrier will slow the rate even more but the layers must be glued together with staggered seams and a complete continuous double 360° seal. Also do not clog the drain holes. Do not use Spray foam, Put desiccant and several wired humidity sensors inside the walls to monitor the problem. I have done five vans and learned what works. Humidity = RUST I do not have any rust on my vans.
Good video. As I've worked in all areas of automotive and as well as house construction, I see a lot of confusion about insulation. A van IS NOT a house. It is built differently and there are different challenges. Lots of good points. Thermal break is the issue. Heat loss through the frame which connects to the outer skin. And of course, glass. This is a huge issue, so you have to compensate and do the best you can. The other thing people forget is the floor. Some people have under floor heating which was interesting. All these issues are mainly a big problem in colder climates due to the massive temperature differences. In temperate and warmer areas, its the opposite and a lot easier, and you need airflow. Its all very interesting and you have to build for your environment. Has anyone used spray foam?
I just bought a Sprinter 170" high roof cargo van (no windows) that has already been spray foamed...I'm converting it to a camper van...should I just stick with the spray foam alone, or add an additional layer of something...any advice would be greatly appreciated...
What about wood? Not as an insulator but building the insides. I see most home builds using regular wood. 2 x 4s, pine or cedar T&G sides and ceilings. Is that really a good idea. Most manufactured campers use particle board or some sort of composite. My concern is that in an accident the wood is going to come apart. Pine boards come apart in splinters that are like flying knives through the interior of the vehicle cabin. Am I crazy?
Oh wow! Love the kit you offer! Do you offer one (or know someone who offers one) for the Transit? Just bought my 2022, and that’s really an awesome kit!!
Thanks for the question Outdoorsman. We have used spray insulation in the past for it great insulation properties (R-value, flexible application), but have since moved away from it. We are making a short video about why - namely its warping of our van's sheet metal.
@@AdvancedRV An alternative - I sprayed the interior of my van with a thin layer of undercoating (I only found one that did not release toxic materials as per MSDS - sorry, I forget the name, I believe it was Kleen flo). It dramatically reduced condensation and the temperature (by touch) compared to bare metal surfaces. I then insulated directly on top of it, or you could leave a thin air gap. To be clear, this is more to reduce the temperature difference between bare metal and interior air temperature to reduce condensation than for insulation purposes. I think of it as a breaker between two temperature zones, similar to a glue layer between two objects of different material and/or temperature. Just fyi in case it gives you any ideas. Cheers
Such a great channel and I really like how genuine your company is despite its success and premium brand. A really inspiring channel and you know your watching people who love what they do. Its really helping me with my first VW Crafter build. Thank you
Why don't you use Rockwool?? It has an R15 rating. It is 4" thick but can be compressed for to any size. For example, Coachmen RV uses Rockwool in the whole RV and tops it up with ENRG Blanket to really keeps it cooler in the summer time and warmer in the cold days! Just a tip or thought from me. Besides that, I love your Vans and the capability to get everything custom build. Love the attention to detail and sure will purchase in the near future a whole custom build RV from you guys. Keep up the amazing work.
Hi Peter, thanks for the comment. We answered the most common insulation questions in a followup video: th-cam.com/video/diFOAQgNtYg/w-d-xo.html At 3:20 in that video we share why we don't regularly use mineral wool insulation.
i really appreciate the honesty of you saying " we really don't know" very few are willing to say that!
As an architectural engineer who long ago specialized in cold rolled steel, i can tell you that dual vapor barriers is asking for trouble both from a corrosion standpoint and an insulation standpoint. The synthetic stucco industry went through 1000s of lawsuits in the 70s and 80s over this basic issue. Dual vapor barriers trap moisture because no wall is perfect. If the moisture gets in, its game over. In the case of these vans, there are usually dozens of penetrations in an interior vapor barrier. How the steel stud industry solves this is by wicking the wall to give the moisture a way out. My recommendation is to go talk to a steel stud expert and maybe an automotive engineer (cars are insulated all the time) and they can give definitive answers.
Or talk to airplane R&D men
Condensation on my 9 year old van drains/runs down the inside of the van walls into a cavity (Which has been sprayed with wax-oil then through drainage holes on to the road. I was used as a mobile workshop before I had it.
Great point.
It also matters what climate the van will be used in, and if you have enough (dry) heat to keep the interior surfaces above the air’s dew-point. I work in boats, which face the same challenges (and oddly never seem to get parked in the desert).
It’s long been recognized in boats that allowing some outside (cold-side) air to circulate freely behind the thermal envelope is the key to scavenging moisture out from within the insulation layer and from the backs of the interior wall panels. It’s also why house attics are vented… unfortunately it’s VERY hard to achieve this in a class-B van conversion due to space and layout limitations. The best you can do is what’s described in this video: work hard to minimize the air (moisture) movement into the insulation. By choosing your materials carefully, then operating the van with appropriate moisture management you will minimize the chances of the wall panels developing moisture-related problems.
That will also mean managing humidity levels in the van - especially during the heating season - and being deliberate about periodically drying it out (parking in the sun with the windows cracked)
@@nautamaran Just to note, the big difference between a boat and van is that in a van it is possible to let moisture out the bottom (ie wicking) and let gravity do the work.
You almost need a super insulation material that provide the thermal insulation and directs moisture in one direction or plane. Imagine that.. A one way moisture barrier.
Finally an honest video about insulating a van and the reason why some choices are made.
Thanks so much for the honesty. I've been busting my head about vapour and corrosion. As a mechanical engineer I almost thought I was a failing because I couldn't crack the theory. Now someone with a PhD in the same field says that he doesn't know either, it makes me feel better again.
Also, only the best professors I had said "I don't know the answer" instead of doing some vague half baked explanation.
How about a Thermal Camera video to compare the Vans? I'd love to see that.
As an architect that designed essentially the same building in all climates (a big box retail store) where to put the vapor barrier is complex and there is no one answer for every location. Minneapolis is entirely different than Miami. Buildings don't move so you could come up with different strategies. Vans move. So you cannot have different strategies. You have to pick a compromising best solution. You installed the blue denim in our van. It works and I can't complain. The Hushmat installation fully adhered to the outer metal skin as much as possible whether combined with blue denim, wool, or thinsulate is probably key to keeping down condensation directly on the metal wall. Hushmat installations typically show incomplete patches on the outer skin to sound deaden the metal and not full coverage as ARV attempts. I see the insulation as touch comfort considering the amount of window glass to deal with and not so much energy efficiency. What I appreciate more in an ARV is the sound deadening properties of your solution, in having two previous vans I can tell you it is a major difference in an overnight stay in a Walmart parking lot combined with insulated window shading that blocks light. Whether wool, blue denim, or Thinsulate, I wonder which is the better sound deadener or if it makes a difference.
Thanks for the comment David. Great insight.
Yes, sound deadening rates up there with insulation. I'm still considering closed cell foam - installed carefully of course.
great point, i think the sound issue is important and would like to know what is better for sound as well.
I love the comment at 13:21 as it is so true. Oftimes the more you learn the more you realize how little you really know.
The problem I see with a moisture barrier is it is almost impossible to make it completely air tight due to the shapes of the van. And warm moist air is what you're trying to avoid contacting the cold steel outer wall. Then if you have a layer of plastic making your wall cavity 'nearly airtight' then the water won't be able to escape easily. So to be effective it has to stop 100% of moist air getting through.
Even if you do make it completely air tight, your'e trapping air from the day you've done the install inside the wall along with it's moisture content and you could end up with a cycle of moisture condensing and evaporating in the trapped air cavity.
There's a couple of options that I've been thinking about:
1) Add localised moisture barriers using bubble wrap or similar. Seal up large flat panels with almost no air in them. Much like where you add the noise deadening material. I'd use bubble wrap (plain or reflectix) so it has an air gap to stop condensation. That will reduce greatly the amount of moisture forming on the walls, while ensuring you're not trapping air in the wall cavity.
2) If you use a traditional inner wall vapour barrier, force air through the wall cavities to dry it out, and vent outside the van. If you're in a cold climate you might need to heat it. Thus expelling any condensation that forms and drying out the cavities. This might also have the advantage of expelling warm air in summer before it enters the living area.
Personally in my van I used a hydrophobic recycled plastic insulation and didn't add a moisture barrier. Moisture does form on the walls, but it also dries out happily. After seeing just how much moisture forms I would definitely consider those options above now, although saying that the moisture hasn't been a problem either. No mould anywhere yet, even in our cold wet New Zealand winters.
Eat Sleep Van All cars (vans) have weep holes at the base of the structure to allow moisture to drip down and out. Manufacturers assume that some water gets in, for example through the roll up/down window mechanism in the doors, and must have a way to escape to avoid excessive rust. Some such designs fail and one can see examples of particular 40-year-old car models that have all rusted in the same location. Other designs are more successful and suffer far less (or no) rust even after many decades of exposure. Also, the passenger version of any of these vans (and every passenger car) is already similarly insulated, including a vapor barrier, from the factory. The vapor barrier is just that: a hindrance, not an impermeable defense. But the basic automotive design has already accounted for moisture on the inside skin of the vehicle.
alliejr yes great point, I should have mentioned that. And it’s a good reason to not use absorbing insulation material, so it can drain out. It also means there are air holes for that cavity.
@@alliejr My van has weep holes in the cavity at the bottom of the van wall which has been sprayed with wax-oil. Condensation just runs down the inside of the van wall into the bottom cavity then through the weep holes out onto the road.
Trapping air from installation day would be totally irrelevant. Calculate the volume of the wall cavity, pick a humidity and go through the calculations. The number will be inconsequential.
Thank you, thank you.. thank you, for explaining it so people can understand insulation!
If you live in humid environments the vapor barrier should be on the outside of the insulation, In moderate and dry environments it’s the opposite then if an air conditioner is used that humidity buildup would easily be dried from the air flow and normal ac process
Very basic rules they should have covered.
I had purchased an Airstream Sprinter where mice, lots of them, had used the fiberglass insulation as habitat! As a result, I took out all the furniture, electronics and plumbing - down to the bare van walls - and sprayed closed cell foam much like is used in Sprinters used as refrigeration vans to deliver frozen goods. The van was reassembled and now takes less energy to cool and heat...
When I met with the team at ARV several years ago, they were using recycled denim - which, like wool and fiberglass, are very appealing to mice to set up shop. I would be wary of using anything other than foam, preferably closed cell.
Any problem with off-gassing?
@@robertmatetich2898 You just need to let it cure properly before covering it. Once properly cured, spray foam won't off-gas further.
Nice video I met some folks from Canada last month heading south for the winter they had there ram promaster sprayed with linex and they said it works very well no condensation at all
Finally, a video that has the facts in a simple package. Thank you. Really enjoyed the "nerdy" stuff. I hope to do a van conversion soon. I'm not a big fan of vapour barriers. I think we can all agree that water is tricky stuff. My concern with barriers is that "if" water ingresses into this space it is then "trapped", forever. That's when the problems start. I believe in a system that breathes. That's it in a nut shell really! Like the guy indicated "you're damned if you do & damned if you don't"!
In a van. Water collected or trapped inside wall cavities will ALWAYS managed to dry out.
Van metallic panellings are already a “conductive” material, as we learned it attract heat. And heat will dry out any moist it contacts with. Right?
Than you ARV, especially Mike and Fred, for this great explanation about van insulation. The part about vapor barrier/retarder on inside walls was especially enlightening.
Glad you enjoyed Mike. Take care.
How does this apply to northern climates like Canada, Alaska, and our Midwestern winters we have here where it routinely gets down below 0F? The build I have in mind is much more Spartan than what you build- I just want to insulate , put in a vapor barrier, and some sort of moisture resistant ceiling, walls, and sub-floor. I plan on using mine as a mobile stealth basecamp for my backpacking/canoe trips, as well as overnight ice fishing trips to other parts of the midwest......I'd want to be able to haul my 4 wheeler in back. I also want to use it for waterfowl season (we field hunt)- basically have a place to park at a corn field entrance and set up a couple cots inside- take a nap, then go set up decoys, hunt, then come back and cook a brunch before heading home. That's my vision anyway, lol.
Wood stoves and Espar type heaters will dry and keep dry a van better than anything else. After that you want to create a thermal break at every thermal bridge.. do that with firm closed cell foam strips. Then control air exchange into the structure of the van with controlled venting. You can divert some of the forced air from an Espar actually into the open structure, behind the walls to keep thing dry (and remove snow ). Did this on a T1N.. worked perfect.
Thanks ARV!...saving my coins....see you in a few years.
Moisture not only comes from people breathing and sweating (ever notice how quick car windows for up when you jump in during a cold spell?) Also remember to use a fan when showering and cooking. I do agree with your outcome and have been banging that drum for years - nobody is going to cause rust inside unless there's an large leak and trapped water. However, there's a really good chance you will develop mold, mildew and stench. Use the ceiling fan!
There is one item that I don't agree with and it's really a pet peeve of mine - you aren't as bad as most but you could definitely cut back to less than half of whatever brand of gooey tar backed foil you're using. In the back of that van it can only serve to purposes - reduce/eliminate metal panel 'ringing', 'beer canning', etc. That stuff is a huge heat sink. Stuck to the skin of a van in the sunlight it will get hot and stay hot until the sun wanes and outside air cools. Inside, the a/c has to work so much harder to transfer the heat that stuff is holding to the outside.
What a spot on, informative and honest take from guys plenty more experienced/educated than me haha. Huge fan already. Pleasure to watch
It was particularly interesting to hear you say after opening up many vans with a variety of insulation materials and a variety of techniques you have never, never ever, found corrosion or oxidation (rust)... wow, that’s amazing. That may be because regardless of technique there is always some air circulation (exchange or movement of air) between the metal outer shell and the inner finished surfaces... in other words: the walls are leaking air... either from inside or outside, it really doesn’t matter. My overall experience in window manufacturing and greenhouse manufacturing and construction and boating combine to conclude the issue is allowing the unit to heat up and dry out... either occasionally or intentionally... it might be advantageous to actually consider heating the air space and power ventilation of the space through planned capillary channels ... using small computer fans inside the walls to exhaust warm moisture laden air... under floors as well as walls... to drive off the moisture purposely. Greenhouses do this by cranking up heat inside and opening ridge vents to drive off moisture and humidity... window designs do this by adding weep holes as well as using dissidents... masonry buildings also incorporate weeps... attics in conventional home construction also ventilate . Biggest issue seems to be window and glass areas for heat loss, heat gain and condensation issues... glass is actually rated for conduction rather than resistance.. replacement with acrylic or polycarbonate would improve performance especially if done as double glazed windows... insulated window coverings are practical solution. The driver cab section is problematic because of the large amount of glass... sectioning off the driver compartment, although reducing living space somewhat, helps with heat loss and heat gains.. a sliding door between areas also increases security. Your newer BBox design solve may of these issues.
I have been going around in circles in my mind trying to figure out the best solution to insulating a van. As you point out all the "ribs etc" are all connected to the outside and bring the cold in.
My base vehicle is a Mercedes Sprinter LWB. It has done 75K miles 9 years old and was a mobile workshop with work benches, Draws and shelves. Which I stripped out it was just lined with a simple solid nylon 3/16 inch thick nylon screwed in place for aesthetic reasons. .
The only rust I found was behind the rear wheel arches underneath the factory installed white sealant.
The people who converted the van to a workshop sprayed into the bottom van wall cavity with wax-oil and that was it.
Condensation must form on the interior of the walls then drain out along the bottom of the walls onto the road. There is no rust on any of the walls other than behind the wheel arch.
I am going to use recycled plastic bottle insulation. It is plastic bottles which have been spun into fine thread then formed into a matt. It should be water resistant and any water that does form can carry on down on the inside of van then out through the drainage holes at the bottom.
I will put a vapour barrier in the roof of the van if possible to direct the vapour to the van's inside wall
Wish I had found your channel earlier.
We went with Rockwool in wall cavities we could get to without destroying interior finishes in our 2006 Sprinter LTV. Living in CO high-country, we haven't figured out how to insulate the floor...
Try Mylar for a vapor barrier. Used for many things including long term DRY AIR TIGHT storage bags.
+1 .. Excellent Van insulation and acoustic primer. .. Shunts to ground many-a-van insulation myth. .. Thanks, ARV.
Have you looked into using thermal blocking or bridging tape on the ribs and panel mounting surfaces inside of your vans?
I'd say one the insides of the van the metal is likely treated with a rust proofing finish. If you damage that coating in anyway while installing stuff then moisture could be an issue.
Someone mentioned drainage holes at the lowest points of the vehicle. Just wanted to chime in, using hydrophobic insulation with a vapor barrier, mixed with holes at the lowest point for drainage makes the most sense to me from a longevity standpoint. This also prevents mold and mildew due to the condensation having someplace to escape.
As for specific types of insulation, it's climate dependent. The insulation needed in December in say the southern USA is far different than the insulation needed in northern Canada.
Where I live, I wouldn't use R7 wool, by building code houses need to be need 20 on the walls and 50 on the roof. So I'd be hard pressed to go less than half of that, specially since I'm restricted insulation thickness. Which will determine the type of insulation needed. Higher the R values = less money to be comfortable during winter.
As far as summer goes and staying cool, cover those windows with a white or silver backing. I can't stress this enough. The idea is to reflect the radiation away from the inside of the van. Not painting the van a dark color helps as well, not as much as the window reflectives though due to the insulation previously mentioned.
You can test this during the summer easily, put a reflective blind up on all the windows during the night after the building has cooled down on the inside. Then measure the change in temperature over the day vs not putting the reflective blind up at night. A house or apartment will stay shockingly cold throughout the day without the sun pumping radiation through the windows.
Suggest using Azdel panels after vapor barrier with low thermal transfer fasters. For added thermal protection consider offering dual pane European acrylic windows.
Best video I’ve watched on the topic. Transparent, unbiased and super informative! Helped me narrow down my choice, thank you! Subscribed
This B box is my dream Motorhome. I have been thinking of doing one and having the removable box so I can upgrade the chassis cab but retain the expensive ‘home’ section.
This B Box would sell well in the U.K. & European Market. It’s head and toes better than other manufacturers in Europe are offering. Great job! I so want one here in the U.K.
Have you taken a tour through the Boeing factory in Renton Wa? They've done a lot of work on insulating aluminum aircraft for both noise and heat, taking condensation into account. They have to take 150 sweating bodies from 120 degrees F at sea level, to -60 degrees F at 40,000 feet and back multiple times each day. Boeing uses fiberglas encased in mylar, not glued to the aluminum body. The condensation forms on the interior of the fuselage, outside the insulation, and is channeled down below the luggage bay. You can hear it cascading down the side walls during some phases of the flight.
I have the advantage of altitude and low humidity which is a great benefit in Nellybelle, my 93 Dodge Grand Caravan LE (the L is for Luxury) in terms of moisture control. I even ran a Mr. Buddy propane heater without moisture issues before upgrading to forced air diesel fired dry heat. I wonder if the moisture solution for larger vans in more humid climates might be better addressed thru advanced air handling but I am no expert on air conditioning systems for those vehicles so I have no idea. FWIW, I have whatever insulation came standard on Nellybelle and full glass. My solution for the cold is simple. More heat. I've got way more than I need in my current heater. I can easily adjust my altitude upward to escape worst of summer heat but I will one day be running an A/C off solar.
Would of loved for you to address closed cell foam as an option.
Ever use spray-on expanding foam....? 🤔
Closed cell foam is an excellent insulator because it's a good vapor barrier in itself in addition to having a similar R value to Thinsulate. My guess as to why ARV doesn't use foam is difficulty of installing and its permanence. It can't easily be removed in the event that disassembly becomes necessary for a repair.
They don't use it because it warps the sheet metal, causing an unsightly appearance.
@@OMGWTFLOLSMH With all the resources they have at their disposal,, you would think that they would’ve come up with a device that would put pressure against the outside skin while the foam is being sprayed Until it stops expanding and cures so the outside skin does not get pushed out but instead the foam pushes inward
My kingdom for a thermal break! Im an architect and this is key in insulation, and possibly sound deadening. In addition it sounds like one needs more ventilation (solution for tents, but a huge thermal loss issue) and/or a dehumidifier inside to fight interior moisture build up.
Great video. Will you be offering kits for promaster vans?
I love the confidence of Americans! :)
The guy doesn't even know how to pronounce his own last name, why would I believe him how to insulate a Sprinter van?
Overall they try to treat this van like a building. A Sprinter van is not a buliding. It's not air-tight and it's not supposed to be. Insulating the doors the way they did is wrong. Insulating a Sprinter van door the way they do is wrong - and, no, there's no 2nd opinion because there are some facts:
Fact #1: The Sprinter van is used as an RV oftentimes, but it's a van. It's designed for work.
Fact #2: The lock isn't waterproof,
Fact #3: the handle isn't waterproof.
Fact #4: There will be water getting into the door. Mercedes deals with this by accepting the water entering the door. They have created a path the water can go inside the door and there's an exit for the water to get out again.
Simple test: Take a water hose and spray the handle/lock of the door. Then check the inside of the door.
Long story short: Insulating the door they way they did does not prevent water from entering, but it prevents water from leaving. As a result the insulation material gets wet. Depending on the material used, you're either creating a wet sponge covered by unprotected steel. Or you have a piece of hydrophobic material surrounded by water - again covered by unprotected steel and the vapor seal prevents the water from finding an alternate way out of the door. The vapor barrier doesn't make it more trivial.
Depending on the climate you've created a ticking rust and mold time bomb. In Southern CA or AZ you may get away with this. In an area with actual seasons, you're cutting the lifespan of your Sprinter van at least in half.
So, I’m going to guess this is a taboo question... I see that Sprinters are the big deal in Van world, but I keep seeing videos talking about the number of repairs and cost. Compared to a Transit, surely someone has data on actual reliability? I also hear that diesel is going to face greater scrutiny over the next few years? If you folks have any opinions, I would love to hear... thanks!
IMO the sprinter is a better quality van, better driving experience. If you're not a fan boy of German diesel vehicles and you either don't do your own mechanic work or have a good independent shop your first trip to the Merc dealership for a repair will leave you reeling. Post 2008 for most people gas represents a better value. But there is an argument it you do a ton of miles, tow, factor in resale in some situations, ect.
that 3 pointed star is like jewelry, it's going to cost you, but some people need it for narcissistic reasons
alfred e neuman REAL VANLIFER HERE! I can tell you from my own experience having driven transits and pro masters and my own sprinters, the sprinter is all around a better vehicle for a diy camper van. The van itself is easier to work in and around mechanically. The transit and the pro master have their cab situated over the engine which causes all kinds of cramped spaces, making any suspension work or engine work more costly because the labor is lengthier. Again, I know this because I’ve done this work on all three. I have owned two sprinters. They’re glorious to work on.
Second. The layout of the van itself is more friendly to living. The transits cab slants back so abruptly it removes a lot of the volume from that area that’s great for storage, the ram has a shelf but it’s not nearly the same size. The rams cab floor is also raised above the load floor, or your house. Look at any pro master with a swivel seat in it. You’ve gotta be 7’ tall for your feet to touch the ground. The seat base isn’t big enough to hide a heater inside. The biggest one isn’t as big as the biggest sprinter. And tbh, if you’re already spending the type of money it takes to build a quality van, you’re really gonna skimp on the van part?
To each their own I guess but, I think it says something about a persons intentions when they take the care of buying the proper platform to build on.
@@matthewjswider -right on, thanks for the info, and I think the Sprinter is sooo much better looking anyway. Cheers and thanks again!
DustyCowdog the sprinter also looks better too. Good luck in your search. If you’re in the used market might I suggest the 07-08 years. They both didn’t have DEF systems but they are the same engine as the new model so, there are a lot of parts available and all kinds of upgrades you can do. Lots of aftermarket support. And again, no def.
Have you heard of Roxsul? Waterproof and fireproof. I have seen sheets or boards of this online but not in a store.
I used a competitor of Dyna-mat for sound insulation. I covered the wheel wells with it and used it generously on the walls and ceiling. It didn't do jack for road noise. I didn't use it inside the doors and that may have been a big factor. I know that BMW cures their sound deadening materials in an oven after they've been added to the body parts. I was an eyewitness to that. That may be another reason the "dyna-mat" didn't work.
Knowledgable yet pragmatic. Excellent stuff guys. Thanks.
I installed 3M Insulation. Then installed a Radiant 3mm foil barrier over that..Then foil taped all the seams on the inside... I can cool my van down 68 degrees. With nothing but a 6k BTU AC unit on Low and Medium..Which is less then 500 watts.....And it stays that way. Unless I open the doors all the time...But you can hang split curtains to slow it down from escaping.
This is in Texas summers..And he is right. I has to install gold foil tinting on the outside of the windows. To prevent the sun light from ever heating the glass up...Some times I cover them on the outside with a Reflectix material. It stops heat transfer from ever starting.
as george from humble road figured out airflow is a big help in this issue he frames everything so it has airflow behind and underneath all the structures as well as insulation thermal barriers and the rest
Saying George figured it out isn’t accurate. I don’t think George invented the idea of air circulation, and you are giving him way more credit than he deserves. As with any type of construction there are different ways to get the job done and some are better than others, and different people are going to subscribe to different methodologies. George believing in a method doesn’t mean he invented it!
Being a worker myself ... I found this helpful and good for thought. I wonder how foam board works? I have a fiberglass high roof (2') and thinkin on the insulation ... I tore the old ceiling out ... whew. Factory had no insulation ... plus ... I wonder if there was a thin layer on the walls of the insulated sheet (1/4" guessing) and then the cavity left open and then a thin sheet of the insulating sheet too on the back side of what is mounted extending over the 1 1/2" of open air (guessing) ... maybe it would solve everything. Thinner the skin to the inside wall fasten area not as good.
will yall make kits for transit vans in the future?
Thank you
That explained a lot on how the insulation is installed and what types there are
Available
Glad you enjoyed John. Thanks for watching.
What is that spray adhesive and don’t clients worry about off gassing from it?
What is that silver tape on the ribs seen with the vapor barrier? I think it said "Tyvek" on it?
Great video! Thank you so much for being willing to share your knowledge and experience. It looks like your company does awesome work.
Great video....most knowledgeable, practical and experience based I've watched
Could really use your advice. My gmc Savana hitop has 3 big windows and 6 door windows so a lot of glass. Used noico on floor, rear wheel wells and doors but forgot on the minimal wall space pre mineral wool insulation. Not sure whether add reflectix over the 2-3” mineral wool? The ceiling be fiberglass having 1x4s embedded 9”OC. Have 1” foil faced 2-4’ mineral wool panels thought of utilizing foil facing upwards taking advantage of 3/4” air space between 1x4s. Then with the van having extreme sound system planned covering insulation with perhaps a marine grade acoustic fabric with select wool trim. So is it worth using a noico product on ceiling and wall space? What’s best for covering all windows and lastly should I pull carpet in cab area and do something with the floor, front wheel weland engine dog house. I feel once windows have a good acoustic/thermal covering it will make big difference Look forward to hearing back from you
So would it help to put insulation between the walls and frame so you don't have direct contact 🤔
Thank you a lot for this video. This is very interesting and informative. Keep posting like those amazing videos, this is awesome.
The best RV for winter & spring skiing and barbecue.
You need to insulate the whole thing then use reflective over it , have a vent under and up and it will cool . Have u heard of rockwool and cold cell.? Use that the a 4 inch pipe wrap on the beams .
A lot of people think since mold won’t grow on Thinsulate, why do I care and why do I need a vapor barrier? It doesn’t have to grow on the Thinsulate. it it only has to grow on the organic dust that will inevitably be caught in the Thinsulate. Materials like this attract organic dust like a magnet.
If any organic dust ever gets on the Thinsulate and moisture reaches the surface of the Thinsulate, it will mold even if Thinsulate does not absorb the water. It’s like hydroponic gardening. It would’ve been nice if you had demonstrated that Thinsulate is hydrophobic with an experiment and empirical data from it. I’d like to see it compared to Rockwool boards
What about closed cell foam? no mention of it.
Curious to know your take on (semi) rigid foam boards, like polyiso board. Not as flexible obviously, but less expensive and thin sheets can be layered and offset to create a continuous layer insulation.
They are great for flooring. Harder to fit around curved vertical walls. Use Thinsulate or Wool or Mineral Rock batting.
Hello Mike it was amazing seeing you endorsing these hydrophobic thinsulate type material. As we are also using the same and found it to be most effective in our Indian condition. Happy to see you using the same gives a lot of credibility.👍🏻
Glad you enjoyed the video Abhinav. Take care.
It might sound crazy, but what about literally thinking outside of the box? I've always thought about insulating the outside instead, which would have the added benefit of giving you more space inside. I know they've already done it with houses, so it's got to be possible. Some highly insulated European windows would go some way in minimizing heat loss, though I don't know if they build them specifically for vehicles. Anyway, that idea has been in the back of my head for years whenever I think about my dream RV. I've also thought a dehumidifier might be a good call if you have power to spare...
How are you going to attach it so it can withstand constant tropical storm-force winds? Actually I can think of one way of doing it, but I don't think it'd be practical (lapping to the front).
I personally think the best thing is to do as they did with the B Box, ditch the prebuilt van shell entirely, use an insulated box for vastly increasing interior volume.
What about aerodynamics? What about looks?
@@nicki8731 In theory it could be whatever shape you want, and it could be "skinned" however you want. Maybe something like monocoque construction would be ideal. The comment was just to get people thinking for the most part and/or to hear if it had already been done.
@@dylanemeraldgrey I believe automotive companies are already making the vans as large as legally possible. If you want to go larger, it's a semi trailer or a box truck. So adding some inches to the outside would probably be illegal.
@@nicki8731 Maybe... There are people who say something can't be done, and they're are people who constantly push the limits. Also, it's not just about the size of the rig, it's about the usable interior space.
Considering that batting of any kind does not get to every surface and there is metal bridging from outer skin to inner surface, I am wondering about spraying LIZARD SKIN (before insulating with some batting). I read that it reduces temp gradient by 10 degrees. And since it is sprayed on all surfaces, it covers both those nooks that batting doesn't get to, and it covers the internal surfaces those metal bridges connect. I would also expect the spray Lizard skin to protect metal and reduce potential for rusting.
damn that look like a great product, i would combine that with wool if i was to make a camper van, hope its not dangerous like asbestos or something
Thanks for the great info ARV! If you had your insulation kit available for the Ford Transit Extended HI Roof, it would've been sold today. :)
Would love to see a van that's used frequently or primarily in a cold-weather environment. Cold seems to be more problematic than hot, apparently.
Problematic in what way? Off grid heating has relatively easy solutions, cooling takes a massive power bank or shore power.
@@Russellbeta Condensation is the big problem we've noticed up here in northern New England. A/C naturally lowers humidity, so it's quite beneficial down south.
@@Jollyprez oh right, that makes sense. I've known people who say they have to ventilate 24/7 to avoid condensation issues and I'm not sure if there's a way around it.
@@RussellbetaHELLO! He isn’t taking about the act of heating or cooling the van as being problematic!!! He is talking about insulating in colder climates being more problematic than in warmer climates probably because vans can more easily heat up in a warmer climate and dry the moister in the walls more easily! This video and discussion isn’t about off grid AC solutions being a big drain on the solar battery system and a heater that more conveniently taps into the gas/diesel tank. He is talking about insulation issues in varied climates!!!
@@bgzwlz5119 I wasn't at all referring to the video.
What are your thoughts on closed cell spray foam? I'm surprised that this isn't covered
We did a follow up video on spray insulation not too long after this video was published, you can find it here: th-cam.com/video/diFOAQgNtYg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3c-QYyf19GZf4o_B
What about spray foam? Wouldn’t that solve the issue of stopping moisture going through while giving you a higher R value?
What would you recommend for insulation & vapour barrier with hot air outside (hot environment like australia)
Any chance you will start offering insulating kits for the Ford Transit? thanks!
So the barrier u use plastic instead of refletix...i see alot of vans use refletix after they have used thin insulate....this is new for me...love your vans please keep the tech talks and tutorials coming
One type of insulation that was left out is the spray foam. I wonder how it compares to what you showed us. It might also be the solution to convection since it can also cover all metal parts.
I believe most outfitters would recommend staying clear of applying spray foam to the panels. Yes, it keeps moisture out of the insulation, but the trouble with foam is that it will also trap heat against the outer skin, which then expands and creates ripples. The rigid foam also sticks to the skin, which exasperates the rippling.
Most noticeable on a van with dark shiny paint which absorbs more solar heating.
Very informative information I learned a lot on insulation thank you ,jimmy Aust
Only closed cell foam on the metal will prevent condensation, any other like batts will allow air between them and the metal, thus condesation
Has anyone wanted to use spray foam insulation in the vans you guys build
What about insulation of the floor? How is that best accomplished or that not easily feasible?
Check out MasCoat - used as a thermal barrier.
Do you plan on offering insulation kits for the Ram Promaster? If not do you have any suggestions of who might offer. I have a 2019 Ram Promaster 2500 159. Thank you.
you mentioned the conductive heat transfer of the structure but you didn't cover the structure points with insulation? How did you stop this heat ttansfer?
Look into Kooltherm - R6.2 for 1", R24 for 3"
wool has lower volatile organic compounds offgasing into the van. Prefer a bit of rust than some sort of health problem down the line.
great video!
Do you find that tinting can help reduce the heat transfer, and what about the darkness of the tint?
You have to use a thermal barrier on the metal before the walls like EZ Cool or a wood frame and that stops the thermal transfer through the metal.
Awesome video. Now is it true that 3M says on their thinsulate that the white is actually the vapor barrier and the black is supposed to go up against the metal?
I learned a lot. Luv your vans.
I have cargo sprinter. Would you recommend lizard skin sound/ceramic coat?
I was thinking using
1st.the lizard skin
2nd. thermal mat
3rd. Havelock wool
4th. Commercial thermal Wall panel
So it's basically 4 layers of insulation.
Have you ever tried spray foam? Seems like it would solve the insulation/ vapor barrier issue as well as getting in all the odd shapes. Can you comment?
Further, some (little but some) spray insulation will always be on the outside of the steel and your plywood wall causing a very slight, but important, thermal break. I wish they had discussed this too. There is an issue with spray foam off gasing if the environmental conditions don't allow the product to cure, but choose the right weather pattern.
I had my 1973 Dodge van spray insulated and it worked great. But that van had fairly thick sheet metal as most vans had in the early 70's. Todays vans, especially the Sprinters, Transits and Promasters have very thin sheet metal. The Sprinter forum is full of stories about folks who spray insulated their vans that caused very noticeable ripples in the sidewall sheet metal. I think it can be done but it must be done carefully to avoid causing distortions in the sheet metal side walls.
They tried it 3 different times and it warps the sheet metal.
@@boxster1970 Todays spray foams that are professionally installed and use a mix of closed cell for the main areas and open cell for the more restricted structural members don't have warping issues.
@Chris where in the video is spray foam mentioned?
This was really helpful, thanks! It makes me feel less crazy about the whole subject because as you've explained, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. Guess we're all in a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" phase. Lol.
Thanks for sharing Cat. So much of this is identifying what works for you.
Great analysis.
Those Havelock Wool people hype their product and slam all competing products as toxic, while buying the opinions of most influencers. Glad to see ARV take the high ground.
what about using a layer of cork or denim between refletix or something hydrophobic and the exterior of the van?
Hello,
Do you have an insulation kit for the Dodge Promaster 2500 154" wheelbase?
The best insulation is Areogel blankets. Very high R value. Four times better than Fiberglass and it is naturally hydrophobic. Repels moisture.
Putting up a moisture Barrier on a van is only going to slow the moisture transfer, which is what you want. A double Moisture barrier will slow the rate even more but the layers must be glued together with staggered seams and a complete continuous double 360° seal.
Also do not clog the drain holes. Do not use Spray foam, Put desiccant and several wired humidity sensors inside the walls to monitor the problem.
I have done five vans and learned what works. Humidity = RUST I do not have any rust on my vans.
Good video. As I've worked in all areas of automotive and as well as house construction, I see a lot of confusion about insulation. A van IS NOT a house. It is built differently and there are different challenges. Lots of good points. Thermal break is the issue. Heat loss through the frame which connects to the outer skin. And of course, glass. This is a huge issue, so you have to compensate and do the best you can. The other thing people forget is the floor. Some people have under floor heating which was interesting. All these issues are mainly a big problem in colder climates due to the massive temperature differences. In temperate and warmer areas, its the opposite and a lot easier, and you need airflow. Its all very interesting and you have to build for your environment. Has anyone used spray foam?
I just bought a Sprinter 170" high roof cargo van (no windows) that has already been spray foamed...I'm converting it to a camper van...should I just stick with the spray foam alone, or add an additional layer of something...any advice would be greatly appreciated...
Has anyone thought of using a closed cell spray foam alication ?
Do you have recommendations for window coverings regarding insulation?
Thanks for the info, we are glad we went with wool, self install and will add vapor barrier.
Do you put ceramic tint on the outside of your window panes?
What about crating outside covers that snap onto the window blocking 70% of radiation before the window even comes into play?
@@DennisWintjes2 Indeed, and this was recommended in one of Bob Wells' videos @ "CheapRVLiving" channel.
Yes, we use a ceramic heat-reflective film on our windows. Thanks for the question. We will elaborate a little further in our next video.
What about wood? Not as an insulator but building the insides. I see most home builds using regular wood. 2 x 4s, pine or cedar T&G sides and ceilings. Is that really a good idea. Most manufactured campers use particle board or some sort of composite. My concern is that in an accident the wood is going to come apart. Pine boards come apart in splinters that are like flying knives through the interior of the vehicle cabin. Am I crazy?
Oh wow! Love the kit you offer! Do you offer one (or know someone who offers one) for the Transit? Just bought my 2022, and that’s really an awesome kit!!
Great video. What about spray insulation? Some TH-camrs say that the best one because it is the densest and you can spray it in every nook and cranny.
Thanks for the question Outdoorsman. We have used spray insulation in the past for it great insulation properties (R-value, flexible application), but have since moved away from it. We are making a short video about why - namely its warping of our van's sheet metal.
@@AdvancedRV Great info. Most people will not mention the sheet metal warping.
@@AdvancedRV An alternative - I sprayed the interior of my van with a thin layer of undercoating (I only found one that did not release toxic materials as per MSDS - sorry, I forget the name, I believe it was Kleen flo). It dramatically reduced condensation and the temperature (by touch) compared to bare metal surfaces. I then insulated directly on top of it, or you could leave a thin air gap. To be clear, this is more to reduce the temperature difference between bare metal and interior air temperature to reduce condensation than for insulation purposes. I think of it as a breaker between two temperature zones, similar to a glue layer between two objects of different material and/or temperature. Just fyi in case it gives you any ideas. Cheers
@@chasethemouse Thanks
@@AdvancedRV Did you ever make the short video mentioned about spray foam?
Such a great channel and I really like how genuine your company is despite its success and premium brand. A really inspiring channel and you know your watching people who love what they do. Its really helping me with my first VW Crafter build. Thank you
Why don't you use Rockwool?? It has an R15 rating. It is 4" thick but can be compressed for to any size. For example, Coachmen RV uses Rockwool in the whole RV and tops it up with ENRG Blanket to really keeps it cooler in the summer time and warmer in the cold days! Just a tip or thought from me. Besides that, I love your Vans and the capability to get everything custom build. Love the attention to detail and sure will purchase in the near future a whole custom build RV from you guys. Keep up the amazing work.
Hi Peter, thanks for the comment. We answered the most common insulation questions in a followup video: th-cam.com/video/diFOAQgNtYg/w-d-xo.html
At 3:20 in that video we share why we don't regularly use mineral wool insulation.
It absorbs moisture. great for a home, not so good for the Sprinter