Dominion War: Section 31 and the Federation Utopia Lie
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"Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong"
To me, the Federation got into a mental place that was no longer interfacing with the real world.
Kirk's Federation was not utopia, and didn't claim to be. They'd resolved some of the major problems of humanity, and other races, reducing xenophobia and fear of the other to the point where union with some alien species was a functional reality. They'd largely eliminated need, but want was still around. They were a nation, and they considered themselves an enlightened one, especially compared to their rivals, but they weren't perfect and still had a lot to learn and places to go.
By Picard's time, the Federation saw itself as the be-all and end-all of interstellar governance. Everyone else was wrong and would eventually realize that, and become good Fed citizens. Until then, it was just a time to pity the poor benighted fools and keep the phasers on stun, even in the middle of a war.
Section 31 was the group that weren't drinking the kool-aid. They understood that the universe was a harsh place, with harsh beings who weren't interested in Fed manners and definitely didn't keep the guns on stun. When the Dominion rocked up, Section 31 realized they had a good chance of losing the Federation completely, so they acted to defend what was theirs. And if they acted ruthlessly, well, remember that ruthlessness is a military virtue.
Q actually tried to show Picard that the Universe is a wondrous, but also dangerous place on numerous occasions, filled with things to both fascinate and terrify you.
I'm an optimist, and I always will be... But even I see the value in an organization like Section 31; Just because YOU'RE an Enlightened Species, with a Strong Moral Compass, doesn't mean your neighbors are... As such, you should always be prepared to have a back up plan for when you need to get down on their level.
@@61089loki The Price of Freedom...
I think we've seen in both Discovery and DS9 that when the Federation is in that state of despair, the Federation gets shady.
I initially thought Lorca was shady. Section 31 shady, but not Mirror Universe shady.......
@@joshualau4070 I think the only Reason Lorca was able to pass him self off as a Starfleet captain is because of the war, and people where ignoring inconvenient things if it meant victory/survival
@cyotee doge It could be but I am not sure if we can really apply or economic models and theories to a post scarcity society
Good men sleep soundly at night. Because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Roughly quoted from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes!
"The King shits and the hand wipes" - George R R Martin, for the less literate :P
Other men do the dirty work that men of power do not care to do themselves, just because they were born with the right name, family fortune, and friends of equal power.
George Orwell. I just posed the same thing, it just fits. Same with the "Gilded Cage" theme too.
There still have to be limits or you can justify anything. That's why we have laws that govern how the military and intelligence agencies operate. If you have an unaccountable extra governmental shadow "agency" that answers to nobody, that's a danger to everybody's freedom.
@Hunter D Probably none at all since they are an extra-governmental, autonomous agency that answers to nobody. Most Federation citizens have never even heard of Section 31. Sloan had to explain who they were and how long they had been around to Dr. Bashir.
@Hunter D If you believe Beta Canon, their "oversight" is a computer program built into every system in Federation with a set "hard code" of protecting Earth and its allies against all threats foreign and domestic.
Regarding Sloan recruiting Bashir, I honestly thought the whole point of the exercise was to test Bashir and then recruit him. It obviously didn’t go his way, but when the reveal came, it really seemed like Sloan knew Bashir was innocent all along.
As for Section 31 ... in a way, I’m relieved they exist. They explain so much about the Federation. The whole line about being more “enlightened” or “evolved” has always bugged me, especially after that Mark Twain episode where Troi won over a renowned cynic with nothing but a smug smile. It feels rather cult-like. Having this shadowy group makes it clear that Federation citizens are simply conditioned by an environment where they can just smile at everyone and still have things go their way.
Yes, being delusional is bad, and i genuinly hated each time the word paradise was used in the Show, BUT the Promise still has Worth!
Humanity can be much, much better than it is today. That's just a fact.
The Federation and Section 31 were both in the wrong - and it's very telling and honestly a Writers Mistake that we didnt saw Section 31 being disbanded IN ALL PUBLIC MANNER.
That's what should have happened.
They were not really interested in recruiting Bashir. They knew he was high moral hypocrite.
"It's easy to be an angel, in paradise". I always loved the irony of this statement. When acknowledging Starfleet as an entity, and how it exists, and continues to evolve in parallel with Section 31's actions, it's becomes obvious that Starfleet would be unlikely to succeed the way the it does, without such an organisation existing. Similar to Cerberus in the Mass Effect universe, it appears to be an evil, abeit necessary one in certain respects. A horrifying revelation to many in the galaxy, even laughable perhaps, but a dangerous adversary if there ever was one.
Saint, not angel. :)
Ah, but those words were said by Jesus "Sisko", which I think opens up something Lore could explore fare more. God is the only one, who can judge human actions without either moral or ethical consequence. The episode right after "Inquisition" is "In the Pale Moonlight", Sisko helped orchestrate the assassination of a politician, falsified intelligence, and bring a neutral party into Dominion war. If Star Trek DS9 had a deeper moral lesson from that, it's that God is beyond "human" morality, he does not need to answer to the rules he set for others. Remember, in all of our prayers and pledges of allegiance, the common phrase is "under God", God himself does not need to follow.
What I am implying is that what we consider Good or Evil is meaningless, in a reality where God is amoral.
I wouldn't hate, Cerberus if they didn't do evil shit to humans. They are supposed to be a protector of humanity, not an enemy. Indeed that is what Cerberus was on many occasions. Look at what they did to Jack.
It's alot easier to believe in God or gods when you have actual, timeless, nearly omniscient aliens intervening in your life.
You can't really count Cerberus as a necessary Evil.
In the ME Universe Earth was well capable of protecting itself and did so on many occasions, Earth was not helpless. It worked together with other Races sure, but it took its place among them, not beneath them.
Cerberus were mostly Space Nazis who believed that Humanity should always thrive. This is not a wrong goal. Where they went wrong was that Humanity should thrive, even if it meant that other Races suffer for it. They wanted Humanity to be the absolute dominant species in Space, but what gives Humanity the right for this?
The people of the Federation sleep safely in their beds because Section 31 stands ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm them.
This is why Kirk was the superior Captain. The Klingons respected Kirk as a warrior.. Kirk readily admitted humans had a streak of barbarism in them..and he had no qualms about letting it loose when he had to.
Picard was full of it to deny otherwise.
I can't remember what movie or TV show this came from but, "Everybody wants to eat steak. Nobody ever asks what happened to the cow."
I learned when I was 12 and visited my grandpa on the farm. Talk about a rude awakening.
what some animals die so that ethers may live that is the natral cycle … does the wolf fell gutly at the death of the hare or the dear? of it does not why should we feel guilt over the death of the cow?
HB I think it was on South Park, the episode when the students took a tour of a cattle farm. Cartman kept saying, “oh they look delicious”. Lol.
Yes, being delusional is bad, and i genuinly hated each time the word paradise was used in the Show, BUT the Promise still has Worth!
Humanity can be much, much better than it is today. That's just a fact.
The Federation and Section 31 were both in the wrong - and it's very telling and honestly a Writers Mistake that we didnt saw Section 31 being disbanded IN ALL PUBLIC MANNER.
That's what should have happened.
I remember I once got reprimanded by a manager at the grocery store where work because I reminded a customer that meat comes from animals. This customer was looking for "Pork Feet" and I told where to find "Pig Feet." They kept insisting on "Pork Feet," until I got fed up with them and reminded them that pork and pig are the same thing, since pork is meat from pig. They got upset. Fortunately, since I was technically correct, my manager was lenient on me and said that I just need to nod my head and smile instead of correcting obvious mistakes, because the customers are "always right."
Of course, months before that, when I worked in the store's deli department (I now work in the Dairy Department), I ended up joking in front of the wife of the store's owner that all of our deli meats were processed animal carcass anyway. My coworker had to go into the back room to hide his laughter, and I thought nothing of the incident until MONTHS later when my floor manager reminded me of it, since I had forgotten about the whole thing at that point. This was five years ago, but apparently I upset the wife of the store's owner and didn't lose my job, which I am still shocked by to this day.
The humans in Star Trek have no problem doing horrible things as long is it for the greater good, Captain Sisko trick the Romulans into going to war in the episode In the Pale Moonlight.
Greater good is our Motto.
The humans in real life have no problem doing horrible things as even if its not for the greater good,
QUARK: Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes
@@tallsmile28 the road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.
In a galaxy full of civilizations such as the Romulans, Cardassians and other galactic horrors, the Federation need an organization as if not more paranoid than the likes of the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order.
I love the existence of section 31, it brings depth to Star Trek. I believe it is a supreme measure of arrogance to delude yourself in to being above barbarism. The utopia is a lie, always was, always will be, enforcing your beliefs upon others is the beginning for the road to hell. You may honest to god have good intentions, your fellow brothers/sisters best interests in mind but without even realizing it you probably had to kill a few of them to get there.
I always found section 31 a very interesting counter to the Federation ideals, but I feel like they were a necessary evil, for humanity, and just for the Federation as a whole.
And as for believing in pure selflessness, I personally find the mere belief in a utopia, and pure selflessness delusional, and I honestly do not belief that the Federation should have done what they did with section 31, that being trying to shut them down.
Yes-they are brutal, yes they tried to wipe out a race, but they kept the core concept of the Federation intact, hell I believe they did more for the Federation than any one race could have, they are willing to do anything to give them peace, through blood yes, oceans of blood, but they try to give peace to the Federation, at whatever cost necessary, and that is the number 1 rule of any government, at-least, it should be, and paranoid as it sounds.
I've always thought that Starfleet Intelligence was woefully outmatched by the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order, and probably also Klingon Intelligence, and that they had to have something much more ruthless in the shadows, or else they would have been badly weakened or even conquered long before TNG. And then DS9 gave us Section 31, which made perfect sense, and was even more ruthless than their adversaries, which I thought was (somewhat sadly, but necessarily) fitting
@@seanmcgrath3826 Actually that might explain why the other countries always appear to be nervous whenever they deal with the UFP, b/c the Changeling bioweapon might not have been the first genocidal weapon they used against other enemies. The scariest thing is that Section 31 and the Tal'Shiar might have been fighting a shadow war for over a century, and this conflict lead to the Romulans to start launching more desperate actions against the Federation during the TNG.
Though I do agree with you, that in the Star Trek universe they would need a group to deal with other ruthless agencies, its just unnerving to think that the Federation's Black Ops unit is so secretive, that they might not have proper oversight to prevent them from becoming a threat as well.
@@seanmcgrath3826
I know right?
I'm not that long of a Star Trek Fan, just finished watching TNG and now i am on S4 of DS9. I always thought Starfleet had no real intelligence Service, or that it just wasn't that good, considering as how deadly and effective they portrayed the Obsidian Order or the Tal'Shiar. I always thought those two were basically the Gold Standard.
Then Section 31 was mentioned and i read into it, only to learn that they are so secretive that even only a select Group of people at Starfleet know of their existence and that they not only are highly effective, but infact Section 31 is so good that they have Spies literally everywhere, even in the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar. Given how extremly capable and Paranoid those Organisations are, this alone is a huge feat.
Umbra2012 I don’t even think the Tal’Shiar know Section 31 exists, which makes it even more terrifying since everyone then just assumes that the UFP wins because it’s just better not because it fields the most elusive and terrifying intelligence agency ever to exist
Yes, being delusional is bad, and i genuinly hated each time the word paradise was used in the Show, BUT the Promise still has Worth!
Humanity can be much, much better than it is today. That's just a fact.
The Federation and Section 31 were both in the wrong - and it's very telling and honestly a Writers Mistake that we didnt saw Section 31 being disbanded IN ALL PUBLIC MANNER.
That's what should have happened.
I always thought it was ironic how true-believer Sisko stepped off his high horse right after Section 31 first appeared. He detested Section 31, yet he collaborated in the murder of assets in order to bring the Romulans into the war. The fact that the Federation sanctioned Sisko's operation didn't make him any less guilty than Sloan going after Odo. I guess war can make us all hypocrites. Section 31 is just willing to remove the pretense.
Sisko knew nothing about Garak's plan to assassinate Senator Vreenak and the associates of Garak that supposedly ended up dead when Garak contacted them, may have been figments of his imagination but you are correct in noting that Sisko and the Federation were fine with a dead Romulan senator as long as it worked out for them.
... Wait! What were you saying? I got distracted by Picard dancing on the bridge of the Enterprise. Replay. ... Wait! What were you saying?
This distraction was brought to today by the letter D
The reason section 31 exists is the reason why my job as a soldier exists. It is good to be peaceful, but be prepard, because not all people are as nice as you might be.
Section 31 is not the hero the Federation wants but the one it needs. It is the only arm of the Federation that does what needs to be done to preserve the Federation even if it's not pretty or viewed as moral. Section 31 is a neccessary "so-called" evil.
Your first sentence seems to paraphrase "The Dark Knight".
No I hate baked in ads because they rarely apply to anyone who has the misfortune of living outside the US and most frustratingly no one in there message mentions whether they are or aren't leading to countless pointless clicks and sometimes navigating all the way to a payment screen before finding out it's region locked.
A good comparison is the Agent from Serenity. Striving to build a better World for all, but acknowledging he is a monster and cannot be apart of that world.
Except unlike the Federation, the Alliance was always rotten to the core.
>referring to The Federation as a gilded cage
Damn son, and I thought I was a pessimist.
@Thelondonbadger I think that's why a number of Trek fans don't like DS9 - it poked holes in the "utopia" of the Federation, and brought it down to earth, so to speak...what would you be willing to do to live in paradise?
@Thelondonbadger Like the cloying sweetness of root beer.
Yes, being delusional is bad, and i genuinly hated each time the word paradise was used in the Show, BUT the Promise still has Worth!
Humanity can be much, much better than it is today. That's just a fact.
The Federation and Section 31 were both in the wrong - and it's very telling and honestly a Writers Mistake that we didnt saw Section 31 being disbanded IN ALL PUBLIC MANNER.
That's what should have happened.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs No offense, but as a new fan who only really ‘loves’ deep space nine, this view is pretty fallacious.
No matter how you look at it, the idea of the federation being a perfectly egalitarian utopia post scarce is at best fictional and at worst completely unrealistic.
Even an anime would never take it that far. It is tone deaf on how we do politics currently in our world and also history even. No country has an innocent history yet this is somehow a theme throughout some of the series. It is almost as if wax on some facts and wax off others because the day we talk about history being brutal even in trek, some fans just want to cover their ears. I can watch TNG or TOS but there are those moments where I just think the idea of paradise, even through the eyes of pragmatists like Sisko or even Janeway is just rose tinted glasses.
I actually agree with Eddington. The Federation assimilates people and they don’t even know it. Imagine if somehow the Tellarites or Andorians left and became just as warlike like during the 22nd Century. Are there Andorians in star fleet that ramble on today being a ‘good day to die’ like some blue smurf klingon only to be denied by a Human on the bridge being like- “Not today.”? Because I think so. There are some species that are more compatible with federation values (Vulcans, Betazoids, Humans) then others (Andorians). Hell, I saw this with Bajor too. The Federation is blatantly secular while Bajor blatantly religious. Yet the Federation just really, really wants that world in their large melting pot so their values can be purified into the so called ‘paradise’ it is written as.
There are some species and mostly allies that just are not compatible with Federation values espoused in the show and it comes off as inconsistent.
Either have Federation as a warless utopia that focuses entirely social commentary or integration or have them as a superpower that enforces gunboat diplomacy so they can slowly but surely add more worlds to the large state.
You ‘cannot’ have both. Of course this is fiction so I am technically lying but there is only so much suspension of disbelief I can stand.
Mostly wrote this because of modern discourse with picard and discovery sort of just highlighting this, but those fans you mentioned must have either not absorbed the inconsistencies of the big four old shows (TOS, DS9, TNG and VOY) or just ignore them because 2 of these four shows have earth as a utopia while the other 2 see it as a far away heaven largely irrelevant to the galaxy.
Personally, I prefer the latter. It is why Voyager and DS9 are my favorites. Rant over.
Also, just wanna say there is an appeal to other sci fi like the Expanse or Warhammer that do not take this view and sometimes even the opposite. I like Trek, but it is clear it is the love child of multiple writers with different perceived values of the Federation in each story/series.
@Zoomer Waffen based
Rory: I have a message from the Doctor and a question from me. Where is my wife? The Borg Queen: what is the Doctor's message? (She looks on in horror as the entire collective is destroyed) Rory: would you like me to repeat the question!
Yea the borg wouldn't last even a half series arc against the Doctor.
Odo did say that it would have been unusual for an organization as large of the feddies NOT to have a secret unit since all the other powers had their own equivalent as well
imagine if TNG era Picard & the Enterprise-D crew encountered Section 31..?
You are right this was explained by Quark to Nog in Siege at AR 557 (let me tell you something about hu-mans) and also (I think) by Sisco in Soldiers At the Rear (it's easy to be a saint in paradise). Both spoke about true human nature.
"Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
As I've grown, Starfleet has made less and less sense. Its a "military" but not really into defense. No standing infantry, logistics, marines or special forces (although this could be an artifact of the writers not having military experience). We have Section 31 as a quasi-intelligence organisation existing out side of Federation, and sometimes working against it. Why would Sec31 allow the Federation-Cardassian Treaty to take place at all? Everyone knew it would cause trouble, it sucked for Federation and Cardassian citizens, and accomplished nothing really. Why wouldn't Nechayev have a accident at an airlock before it could be completed?
I'm also stuck how close to NATO the Federation and Starfleet is. The Hoomans do all the heavy lifting while few other member nations contribute little to mutual defense of Federation space. This could be a budgeting issue with the various shows though, it would probably be expensive to have a bunch of Andorians serving on the crew, but The Orville seems to pull it off.
"Peace is a nice idea but it can get you killed." - George Carlin
"Why would Sec31 allow the Federation-Cardassian Treaty to take place at all? "
it weakened the cardassians in the long therm since they have to deal a permanent insurgency and a preety annoying one at that since the marqui gets most likely supplys from sec31, the bajorans and possibly even Klingons and Romulans
Actually, Starfleet did have all of those military sections at the start of the Federation (in the books) and gradually renamed them and modified them so that they were more defensive and less militaristic in nature. Like more police forces were started out of military units that evolved to be less aggressive as their role changed.
It depends on just how ruthless and amoral you believe Section 31 actually is. Are they sitting in a dark room cackling at how they will destroy absolutely all threats to the Federation, or are they an intelligence agency that spends most of it's time just watching and occasioanlly nudging people in the right direction at the right time. I could easily believe that Section 31 was just acting out desperation by infecting Odo once they realised that a war with the Dominion was probably unwinnable (see those projections that Bashir's augmented pals made).
Also starfleet is shown to have logistics....
Section 31 didn't get involved in the border disputes with the Cardassians simply because the Cardassians weren't an existential threat to the Federation at that time. The Central Command was arming the settlers to the teeth and causing problems for Federation settlers, but at no time was the security of the U.F.P. at risk. Everytime Section 31 gets involved in something it risks being exposed. Ultimately the Cardassians weren't worth the risk.
It's not always black and white. The entire idea of the Federation and Star Trek is rooted in secular humanism. There are many, many essays about it but it secular humanism doesn't mean you or I have to be perfect, or that if we are not then everything about humanism is a lie. It means striving to be better. Humans like Jean-Luc Picard are not perfect, the Federation is not perfect but it's a goal of working toward it. It is also about a future where greed and fanaticsm are not 'neccessary evils', but things that can be overcome and we can do without.
every government has a dirty tricks department we just got a good look at the federations
Section 31 is needed for the Federation to survive.
"To save paradise, the serpent was introduced."
Daddy needs a new pair of shoes... for his kids, so keep supporting him!
Seriously though he's doing a great job in supporting Star Trek content and he's on my short list once I actually have stable income, and with that let's get back to the lore!
I ABSOLUTELY believe that Sloan concocted the entire investigation on DS9 not to investigate Bashir, but to recruit him.
Talk to cmdr. Eddington if you want a 'kool-aid' free perspective on the Federation.
Commander Eddington did nothing wrong. Capt. Sisko didn't either.
@@jeffreyskoritowski4114 I agree. Those two men, however, exemplified polarized ideals over greater understanding and compassion. When that happens, only the fight remains.
There's also the fact that Julian is an 'augment' that would make Sloan interested.
It did, actually; Sloan specifically says as much in a later episode.
Julian is one of the successful experiment of Section 31, that should be interesting. I would love i concept of a Spartan program from Halo conduct by Section 31
Theoretically, perhaps the era of Kirk only came about, because only about 8 years prior Section 31 made the decision to go much further underground, and paint a picture as though any remnant of them no longer existed.
Or section 31 never existed until the Borg Sphere crashes in the past, and everything post First Contact is a sub-timeline.
People stare with wonder at the skyline, but they sneer with disgust at the sewer.
In DS9, I saw S9, like the rpg org Delta Green. Very few full time agents, but a lot of part time agents(knowingly and unknowingly).
One thing puzzles me, and it is something you could make a debate over, is the fact that when the Borg was a HUGE threat to the Federation and the Enterprise captured "Hugh", you would assume that Section31 would know of this and took him from the ship without the Enterprise crew even noticing it. After all, the agents of Section31 could appear and disappear randomly as it seems. They would not hesitate to have used that so called unsolvable puzzle against the Borg. Even the NOT-Section31 admiral Nechayev said to Picard that whenever such an opportunity comes again, he MUST take it. And this comes from a 'normal' civilized admiral, not even a Section31 member.
Section 31 still needs a budget. That's the Achilles heel of all spy organizations. If it's small, it can fly under the radar for a while. But when it grows, there will be demands for its accountability, at least in the money sense.
since the federations economy is vague at best and even contradictory at worst, i imagine funding for S31 isnt an issue
@@SC-mq1eh I think tracking stuff like dilithium, anti-matter, etc. would be the Achilles heel with Section 31. Even in Star Trek's post scarcity society, things like that are tightly regulated. Section 31 uses ships and somebody is fronting them the unreplicatable resources used to make those ships get up and go. That dilithium is coming from somewhere. Some miners, shippers and logistics personnel are tracking that stuff. There's records somewhere.
@@tachyontee3877
thats why i disagree that S31 is or was completely unknown - its just part of black budget/black ops branch of starfleet/fed intelligence
@@tachyontee3877 There's also pirates and off-the-books sources of dilithium to mine, along with prisoners in black sites that you can put to work, and then later holograms or various 'droids. It wouldn't be simple, but it could be done to keep fuel supplies on the d/l.
DS9 did wonders in exploring the nuances of how the Federation claimed to be and how its ideals clash with the real world. I can sum this up in Siskos rant to Major Kira at the start of the Maquis crisis. There were those who lived in glass rooms and others who had to scrape by or make questionable decisions to survive, all under the banner of the UFP.
To be honest, I don't think that Sloan really cared one way or the other about Dr Bashir, at least going into the inquisition. Bashir had raised just enough flags to be a possible threat, while still having enough useful traits to be a desirable candidate. I personally think Sloan designed a test to expose him if he was a spy, and test him as an asset if he was not. It seems like a bit of wasted energy for such an organization to go to such lengths just to see if he was a spy.
Ive always been curious why if the 4 most powerful races created a non biased unity, that humanity was de facto in charge. The starships all carried on in styles of pre federation starship design. That their wasnt more either A, fusion of design styles, or b, each race having their own design styles and making technological components modularly interchangable.
it seems to me that despite the other races having more or equavelent time with space travel, that humans usurped the federation at the exclusion of the member races, relegating their significance to their own territories. Turning it the federation into an extension of earth.
Sounds like a typical "humans in space trope" to me now that I think about.
I've been around more than a couple of years and know that striving for excellence is often marred by the means to get there. Rarely does anyone at the bottom of any society advance without sacrificing something important. A good life for children most often entails not being there to see them very often. This is Section 31. They are the ones that can't live in the utopia they uphold because they're too busy keeping it together and going. The means employed are morally questionable but in the larger picture the Federation still exists and it does so because of people looking and acting on the larger whole to keep it going. For Picard to take the moral high ground, he can do so because he works for Starfleet. Starfleet would not and cannot continue to exist without someone taking care of the darker aspects of the Federation. Orion Syndicates and the like will continue to operate within Federation worlds and are kept at bay by subtle means. Trying to quash these organizations means the Federation is a totalitarian regime. Working with them in the interest of keeping the Federation going keeps the whole of the Federation free. Oh, Section 31 cannot be a solely human organization. Otherwise, other founding members would investigate and end it or their participation in the Federation.
6:40 "What they can offer..." Kilana the Vorta! 🤣😂 It had been a while for my boi Sisko up to that point! Wonder if he got "tempted".
6:32
Section 31 made the charges of the inquisition up they transported Julian to the holo deck from the beginning they deprived him of sleep and tested his reaction until he figured it out section 31 is the inevitable result of a realization that although there is optimism and utopia dreams the reality is that if the gloves have to come off section 31 can do so and the federation has deniability to continue its existence as a peaceful entity I believe that Star fleet is complacent and overly optimistic but section 31 is the vigilant watchmen seeing threats every where and resorting to extreme methods to defend the federation
I like to think that section 31 is alive and well, and that they're staffed with augments. Julian being an augment may be why Sloan was trying to recruit him.
Section 31 is like the glove that stops the hand getting blooded
Section 31 to me seems like a necessary evil to extents. While I can't entirely condone their actions, they exist as the other side of the coin that is Starfleet.
It's a difficult question to be sure and a discussion that will continue for a long time. Personally, I believe in the ideals of Starfleet and the Federation, after all, they are standards they hold themselves to. However, the rest of the galaxy may not hold the same ideals and contingencies need to be put in place to combat those threats. The Romulans are a prime example as you stated. In DS9 Sec 31 was used as a Boogey Man of sorts toward the end, an internal antagonist that played directly into Julian's spy fantasies but in ENT and Disco we say a sec 31 that was shady to be sure but still played by a set of rules. Moreover, Its curious to me how Disco's Sec 31 was a more public entity while by DS9 they were persona non grata. I get the impression Julian was just out of the loop and everyone else in a command position knew who they are and what they do.
Live Love Play Section 31 was probably just under an open secret in Starfleet circles.
The biggest determinant in whether a society functions is, I feel, whether those within it are committed to making it functional: if everyone is willing to believe in its ideals to the point that they put their money where their mouth is and dedicate themselves to the greater good, then a place like the UFP is possible. However, in some cases that dedication requires doing things that aren’t pleasant to protect the whole, and that’s where Section 31 comes in, and it is both necessary and in harmony with those ideals.
Sisko said it best:
-It is easy to be a saint in paradise...out there there are no saints, just people, angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with the federation approval or not.
i always love section 31 starfleet might dream but the universe also has nightmare's
One of the major plots of DS9 is that you aren't allowed to leave the UFP, and that goes doubly so for Starfleet. If you try to leave they get really, really upset, and do bad things to you.
I many questions regarding section 31, however I will only post this one: Where was section 31 during the Leyton conspiracy? Did they back the Coup or would they have opposed it? Personally I think they would have opposed it as there would have been more Starfleet security to circumvent and potentially more eyes monitoring their operations, on the other hand if section 31 knew about the Coup why not act sooner.
One reason section 31 was so successful with staying hidden so long, was that they were very effective at what they do...
Its only the dominion threat that made them come out of the shadows...
Section 31 is a necessary 'evil'.
Change my mind.
Section 31 is the knives in shadows to keep the federation safe while in lives in the light
It's not always I side pretty hard with the Dominion apologist. But the introduction to Section 31 was always a pretty big eye opener to the power the Federation would never want to admit they possess.
Everyone knows of the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. But your black ops group is so underground and so connected that they have men in the leading powers of your greatest enemies and effictively dealt a killing blow to the Dominion long before war was even declared. All while no one even knowing that they exist.
It sure takes the just causes the Federation and kind of leaves it up in the air, as the cast of DS9 felt after they found out about them.
The Federation 'evolved human' thing is repeatedly called out to be a lie. I think the episode that didn't just hint at it but punched the issue in the face was 'Hard Time' on DS9, or the 'Siege of AR559' (I think that's the right number). Humans have tech that lets them have unlimited resources and when we're happy, as Quark says, humans are mostly great. But that's really the size of it. Take away the cool toys and humanity gets mean.
As bloodthirsty as any Klingon, unless their bellies are full, the holosuites are working... something I remember quark telling Nog that to keep him from idolizing the war weary soldiers during the siege.
In the pale moonlight and siege at AR559 are two of my all time favorite star trek eps. They show that humans are still human even if "evolved"
Of course utopia is a lie. Going all the way back to Plato utopias have always been inherently unachievable.
Thelondonbadger that’s a reoccurring theme especially in old trek. Roddenberry got to tng decided humanity can make its own paradise.
Thelondonbadger personally I really enjoyed Ent nx s3-4 a lot with one exception. I am sure you can figure out which episode I hate.
I always figured that they were needed because spy vs spy is a popular genre and the writers needed a way to portray it.
Not complaining, but it is kind of funny to see the baked in sponsored content ad interrupted by TH-cam's own ads.
Yea...TH-cam likes doing that
I’m a TH-cam red subscriber I never see ads.
You are seriously trying to reconcile Roddenberry's vision of a utopian future with Behr's cynical reimagining of it? If Behr's version is now canon, then Roddenberry's no longer applies.
What most disturbs me about the Trek Roddenberry Utopia isn't how infeasible it is, high trust societies can exist, but in order to create drama and purpose for the show and Federation the characters had to essentially conduct a "Federation man's burden" policy to all other civilizations. At least Section 31's objective was ultimately defensive and amoral, Starfleet was ultimately aggressive ontop of moralistic.
7:13 It was all the Section 31 version of the Psych Test by seeing how Julian reacts to being repeatedly and aggressively accused of being a Dominion agent.
Section 31 has always reminded me of CURE from the Destroyer series of novels by Warren Murphy and Richard Sapir.
Section 31: when people who dont get star trek and assume everyone else is a sociopath like they are are allowed to write trek.
Can't recall the exact quote, but a wise person once said, 'Perhaps Earth only appears to be a paradise, because there's always someone behind the scenes, doing all the nasty stuff that no one likes to talk about.'
Even in paradise there are snakes.
The delusion is to think everyone will act by your rules. The strong protect the weak, that is how the developed world works even today.
The UFP has strong minded individuals, the "evolved humans" even though it should be "evolved individuals" as they are not all humans.
But even then, when confronted with an enemy that is foreign to this concept and this ideal you need the strong to act not only in mind and ideas but also in physical form. If only to make a show of force. To demonstrate what you can do to your enemy.
Today this is called the balance of terror. The knowledge that whoever shoots first, at the end there wont be enough left of anyone to rule over anything.
So the UFP continues to develop itself with its ideals of being more than they are. But in the shadows dwell those that are not but want to protect that ideal. Ready to act to defend it.
As for the river of blood. I see it this way: Everything we are today was built on the corpses of those that came before us, willing or knowing sacrifices or not.
The question then becomes, would the UFP be what they are if they knew that there are those that fight in their place, do things they would not and then ensure their survival.
Would they shun them or would they eventually accept that with light comes darkness.
Section 31 is not only right it’s necessary. Consider, if you will, that the Vulcan, Andorian, and Human intelligence agencies are all alive and working at the formation of the federation....... how is it not logical for them to become one organization working towards one goal? It’s not only logical but necessary. You need a clandestine organization as a counterbalance. You also need the wide eyed optimism of starfleets officers. It sells the idea (lie) that starfleet is a completely peaceful organization. If that’s what the evolved human needs to function that’s what they need. It’s as old as time itself. Carrot and stick has and will always work. My ONLY objection to the lies the federation tell is itself is “we are not a military”. While your scope may be a million times larger than military operations; there’s absolutely no reason to have a school teacher, or scientist in combat. If anything I think starfleet needs to embrace a military with all of its clandestine special operators included. It’s about time full time competent solders do the soldiering. Isn’t it about time that actual marines do the recovery of away teams? Far too often starfleet needs a military solution and their doctrine falls short. So....... in that respect I can completely see section 31 operating in the shadows doing the things that need to be done to allow starfleet a favorable outcome. They are inevitable, and completely logical. I wouldn’t be shocked at all if the head of section 31 was a Vulcan.
Except that's of course backwards, because Section 31 didn't exist until near the end of DS9 then retconned back through the timeline. Presumably first contact caused an alternate reality path somewhere between the Mirror universe and the Real Federation universe. Presumably everything that happens once the borg sphere crashes ISN'T in the actual prime universe. It just LOOKS like it is. Really things kind of go pear shaped following Generations. Both Narratively and meta-narratively things took a turn. It's why there was never any NX Enterprise ever spoken about before Enterprise. And why everything in Discovery makes no damn sense in relation to TOS and Next Gen.
It would be really cool if "Picard" dealt with that in some way.
I have always thought Slone really just wanted to recruit The Doctor.
For the light of utopia to shine, there are those who must work in the shadows to defend it.
Someone has to so the dirty work....
Or at least, this is what comes to mind from what this post presents.
Excellent video.
I think it is interesting and amusing that none of the Star Trek TH-cam experts have figured out that section 31 is directly related to Gary seven I think you guys should revisit the Gary 7 episode from the original series the entire concept of Gary seven and section 31 fit hand-in-hand
First.. who the hell is an expert on this? X_x - beyond that, whose to say it hasn't or been discussed? I don't think there's a relation but i personally hate gary 7 ;P
I’m still waiting for these so-called evolved humans to show up in Star Trek.
Exactly. Smugness dosen't equal "evolved". I was SO happy when Q slung the Enterprise 7000 light years across the galaxy to meet the Borg and show them that they were not ready for everything.
@Thelondonbadger Yep. Even though it's Starfleet General Order Number One, it's ignored or modified by Starfleet captains when it poses moral or situational problems.
@Thelondonbadger Not to mention how these evolved humans can be just as petty and intolerant as anyone today.
Barclay was being treated like trash before Picard stepped. The guy had problems. Why was no one helping before then?
@@clintmatthews3500 It's easy to make fun of someone who's odd that you don't understand. Even his CO, Geordie, was in on it.
Richard Lahan Exactly my point. Picard’s stance should have been the default for evolved humans and not some saving throw to prove a point.
My thoughts are that Laura is suddenly trying to recruit us to section 31.
Ohhey Sloan!
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to find out that a fair number of would-be attacks were utterly destroyed by Section 31 and never heard of by anyone in Starfleet.
"Let me tell you something about Humans. They are a friendly generous people,,,as long as their bellies are full and their holisuites are functioning. But,,,you take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food and rest and force them to fight for their lives day and night and those same friendly, wonderful people will become as mean and as nasty as the most bloodthirsty Klingon" Quark (Star Trek Deep Space Nine, the siege of ar-558)
The wolves that protect the sheep from the Shadows, finally get their due!
What I also love about this organization, is that it demonstrates a shift in Gene Roddenberry's philosophy, almost a maturing if you will.
*"Si vis pacem, para bellum"*
I've always thought that with these "necessary evils" in fiction, the dream and the potential of the society in question would still be alive and kicking, but it would cost more (lives, morality, materials, etc). The people as a whole would be a little more wary of outside influence, but still very accepting, and would be more militaristic and vigilant. The "necessary" would be unnecessary, but ultimately, a significant cost-saving measure.
That does it. I'm going to click that link to hover dot com to buy my own domain so I can make a website to vent my frustrations about mid-roll ads.
Good stuff thanks!
nah... it's both. the inherent dichotomy of reality.
the best occurs when when we strive for- and can attain- much of the ideal.
but when we can't survive, we must become pragmatic. because if we're annihilated, our lofty ideals are annihilated with us. so we slide down the scale only as much as we need to, to survive. always aiming up, even if we can't hit as high as we want.
I always wondered where the bums and slackers were if they were effectively taken care of not needing money (confirmed in Star Trek 4) why work I would watch old movies all day and when not read books or go play checkers but not work, Section 31 in keeping everyone safe helped make people lazy, Colonists had more guts they required people work.
Isn't that a the nature of a good clandestine instance you never know if they really thought Bashier was a tratior or waa the whole thing a test or was their a third motive and you'll just never know?
Section 31 was not just an invisible organization that would just rise to the occasion as needed. If you look closely at certain episodes you will realize Section 31 had operatives throughout all the ranks of Star Fleet. How was Section 31 so well informed? I believe Sisco and O'Brien were operatives. How did Section 31 know so much about Bashir? And how did Sisco get away with so many of his wreckless decisions?
Just want to say that i got a 1:30 add in the middle of your 30 sponsor add...adception :) I know it's beta cannon, but the current novel series has section 31 exposed.
OK, question: is it hypocritical for Sisko to be opposed to the actions of Section 31, yet able to live with being accomplice to the assassination of a Romulan Senator?
Yes, he wasn't aware of that particular part of his plan to trick the Romulan Empire into declaring war on the Dominion, but neither did he turn himself in or even, apparently, report what had happened to his superiors. He even goes as far as to delete his "confession". He justifies to himself that his actions, whilst deplorable and incompatible with the ideals and principles of the Federation, as necessary evils.
But what is Section 31 but a necessary evil?
Yes, the Federation (by which we actually mean humanity) is above such underhanded actions, but the rest of the galaxy isn't. Claiming the moral high ground is all fine and dandy, so long as you're not being dragged into slavery by those less concerned with ethics over outcomes.
Section 31 see themselves as the Watchmen on the Walls of Paradise, the Rough Men who stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do the Federation harm. And I'm sure that they'd happily applaud Sisko's actions in defence of the Federation.
From a purely subjective point of view, the only difference between Section 31 and Sisko is that they accept who and what they are, where as he struggles to justify his actions, seemingly even turning to drink.
Thoughts?
Evolved or not, there are certain actions that must be committed. You can't have it both ways and expect to survive as a nation state. It's not pleasant, it's not nice, but it is needed.
The biggest difference between TOS-Era Starfleet and TNG-Era Starfleet is that TOS-Era Starfleet had no illusions about the fact that it was a military organization.
TOS Starfleet: We are the military and we have the power to wipe you out, but we'll leave you alone unless you deliberately provoke us, and even then, we won't wipe you out unless there are absolutely no other viable options available. Please, do NOT push us to that point. You won't live long enough to regret it.
TNG Starfleet: Life is perfect, everything is great. We are not a military, despite all evidence to the contrary. Please, don't make us upset. Please, stop attacking us and our allies. Can't we just talk about this? Okay, you've pushed us, time to defend ourselves while lamenting our actions and how this makes us less morally superior.
I think i would agree with alot here..
Your theory is obviously correct, it’s obvious at the end of Inquisition.
I thought the whole thing with Bashir was just a recruitment test for Section 31. I thought it was intended that way. I didn't realize that it was just an assumption.
Still laughing about the line, people in the Federation considered themselves enlightened
My theory is that Section 31 is an evolution of CTU.
Mine is that they're the Men in Black without Will Smith and fewer sequels :P
I’ve always thought they were actually formed by people from the Terran Empire
i would imagine smth a like section 31 would indeed be needed - federation as a utiopia can only exist if there are those who share its goals - so among the members there is no need for section 31 - BUT federation aint living in a vacum - there are plenty of those who do not share their values - and who are even openly hostile to them and with whom there is no chance of even cooexisting (like the Borg) - This means that in order to keep the idealists safe - you would need smth like section 31 to be on watch - and act if assets of paradise like diplomacy, culture, trade , or even starfleet fails. IF anynthing such safeguard should be in there just in case - better have it and dont need it than otherwise.
As for the Odo thing a few Arkancides will take care of that problem.
Section 31, the Federations dirty little secret. They do the dirty work so most of Starfleet doesn't have to. Some say that it's a part of Starfleet Intelligence, I'd say Starfleet intelligence is the 'family friendly' face of Section 31. I wouldn't be surprised if Sisko was an agent himself. That would explain a lot about the things he got away with. That said, Section 31 are the ones who know the truth about their little lot in the galaxy where as the average federation citizen happily take in the main stream propaganda, truly not seeing the fact that the emperor has no cloths.
Are TH-cam ads not more profitable? I hate having premium and getting user sponsored ads!
"I believe in a just God" the Good Shepherd.
Here's the thing, I was mentioning this to someone in a different discussion. Our perspective of the Starfleet universe is from the eyes of Starfleet officers. I think that Chief O'Brian is the one enlisted man that is ever fleshed and in truth as a senior non com he is more at home with the officers. Starfleet as a military organization has a clear chain of command that precludes a lot of arguments. Second, space is a very dangerous environment. Downplaying the dangers and comparing it to an ocean voyage makes sense on a practical level, having the actors in pressure suits all the time wouldn't be practical. As far as it being science fiction its not really good science. Still its a very dangerous environment, the crew members on these ships, enlisted and officers, undergo rigorous training and personality testing. Someone who was unstable or difficult would rarely make the cut. Maybe here and there you have a Barclay or someone like the Betazoid on Voyager who ended up being a serial killer, it would be vary rare. In that sense, on a practical level what Gene Rodenberry believed in makes sense. The average officer or crewman would represent the ideas of the Federation/Starfleet very well. Keep in mind these people have to live together on these ships in a dangerous environment for years at a time. Having people who bicker, backstab and ignore the chain of command is completely stupid. We can see there is a Section 31 and a faction is Starfleet that is more militaristic. Recruits who might be more suited to that are identified and diverted in that direction. What we see is the ordinary Starfleet perspective not the minority that is allowed to exist because, unfortunately, it might be needed.
As far as Bashir goes. I think there was a real attempt to recruit him. In a way they did recruit him it was just unwillingly. I think the reasoning was is that they were very impressed by his ability to conceal his genetic modifications for so long even though there was a system in place that was almost foolproof that could identify someone like him who had been modified. At the same time this also made him a security risk, they considered beings like him to be a risk, not without reason. So their closer scrutiny of the Doctor did make some sense storyewise, from what I can recall about this, its implementation was that it was a little clumsy and convoluted.
The utopia isn't a lie, but rather impossible to truly obtain because it's not ment to be obtained. To set a lofty goal and work towards it's realization is the point of "Star Fleet". If we reach the end then we stop trying, stagnation sets in, atrophy occurs and we shrink.
Rather the ideal Star Fleet is the society that can adapt to survive. To flourish despite conflict and to evolve to meet challenges. It's Prime Directive is not unlike a good constitution. It can change to meet the needs/objectives of the society, but it doesn't direct what objectives the society must have.
Wait I thought that Starfleet came BEFORE the federation...
There were two Starfleet.. one under the United earth, the name was adopted when starfleet was created in the charter of the united federation