Dominion War : That Time Worf Took Civilian Lives
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
This is part 1 of Rules of Engagement. What did you think about the episode, and the court trial? Let me know in the comments below!
#1onTrending #DominionWar #CardassianWar
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A civilian transport with a cloak in the middle of a warzone during an active firefight, that just so happened to decloak right in front of the only Klingon in Starfleet. Its every kind of suspicious and any real life tribunal would note that.
I thought the same as i saw this Episode several years ago, like why do has a civilian ship a cloak in the first place? or lets say the ship was full of schoolchildren, so what? dont move into a Warzone as noncombatant and if you have to, its youre resposability to be recognizable as noncombatant
Given how the Klingons were fighting a war hundreds of lightyears from their own border, it is suspicious to have a civilian transport here. How often do Metro busses from New York end up in Kabul firefights?
@@bsotech Actually, "civilian" transports being near the frontline arent at all suspicious per se. Usually you would have support craft for purposes of resupplying frontline troops and ships, which are typically based on civilian designs and either un- or lightly armed, and given Klingons having access to cloaking technology its not unreasonable to fit a cloak to minimize risk of attack (attacking supply lines is fairly effective of a tactic).
Now, such craft are still typically operated by the military, all Im saying is that at a glance such a ship could be considered civilian, but it is definitely not a combat unit.
An actual purely civilian transport so close to a frontline is pretty bizarre though.
@@builder396 every Piece of civilian Equipment used by a Mililitary becomes military Equipment and therefore a legit Target and that counts for civilian Ships carrying military Supply as well even if they have Civilians on Board, Lusitania wink wink
@@ottersirotten4290 teh closest equivilant would be a gulf tanker ship during the iraqi war
I always found it strange that the Klingon would continually commit war crimes and star fleet does not blink an eye. Let's be clear, worf was escorting a humanitarian convoy which was attacked without provocation. Suddenly a klingon ship 'de cloaks' in a middle of a firefight and infront of a federation vessel well within weapons range, how is he supposed to react. I think sisko was being unreasonable to expect that worf would not immediately see that ship as a threat while he is already engaged by klingon ships.
TLDR, I saw the episode and it was a romulanesque ploy by the Klingons to discredit worf and the federation.
In fairness worf falling for the "If you got nothing to hide" is in character, especially after the drumhead
That means he learned nothing from that experience.
@@canyonntt6969 Precisely, and I'd believe it (however there are many lessons from the drumhead that could be learned, realistically no one would learn all of them, or even realise what all of them were)
So Worf is a dumbass. Ok. I'm not saying you are wrong but that's what this means.
@@ironstarofmordian7098 - No, it just means he hasn't learned the lesson yet, or he is a slow learner. If he was a dumbass, he would refuse to acknowledge that the events of the episode "The Drumhead" happened or they were inconsequential.
All of this just shows one thing: Deep Space 9 is full of Logic Holes and whatnot else. It's just a bad Show.
Seriously, about Deep Space 9, one has to note: That's not how War works, that's not how Peace works, this is nothing about how anything ever works!
Seriously, almost any Series ever has Plot Holes or Errors, but DS9 was just unwatchable for me. I couldnt endure it, so i quit...
And i just hate it when people say DS9 is the best of all shows of the Franchise. That's simply not true. Not with that outragingly meaningless Decisions, and Decisions that are outright stupid as heck.
And why does a civilian transport have a cloak? It’s like having reactive armour on a city bus....,
Might be handy in Chicago...
To help protect itself?
Why wouldn't a transport, operating in a conflict zone, have a cloak fitted?
As for armour on a bus, that's kind of like having shields on a freighter. Like Kassidy Yates' freighter does. Even irl 21st century transport ships have anti-piracy defences.
@@Slavir_Nabru I can't imagine the Klingons would be crazy about a bunch of civilians running around with one of their most prized military technologies, and cloaking devices are illegal in the Federation as per several treaties. You've got a point about shields, though they are useful for dealing with natural hazards, which I would argue is the primary reason civilian ships in Star Trek have them.
@@CRocketSlim I'm not sure the Klingons would consider the cloak all that valuable.
They've had that tech for 100 years by this point, it's hardly cutting edge stuff.
@@CRocketSlim Well we don't know if it is a top-of-the-line cloak. It is possible the Defiant could have easily detected the ship if it had actually been trying to scan for it rather than just going after it for being int he right place at the right time.
you forgot one thing. at this point Gowron hated Worf and so this was probably a personal vendetta against him. Gowron is the one who wanted to get Worf into trouble
This episode pissed me off. From the moment they said it was a matter of “his heart” I already knew this would be a load of BS.
Worf had to let out rage for always being denied by Picard.
He did seem to have some suppressed anger. 😆😆
and later Sisko orders him to poison an entire planet and Worf hesitates
@@NitpickingNerd True.
Plenty of politicians lose their nerve when one person acts bad and the media overreacts... It's Jake's fault!
I actually wondered when watching the episode what the Hell the Arbiter was thinking allowing the case to continue after the Klingon advocate "Accepted all of the statements and records that had been given as factual" and Sisko had made a motion to dismiss.
Regardless of what the advocate had to say about attempting to determine "what was in Worf's Heart", the arbiter should have simply dismissed the case on the grounds of "Well I guess then that you shouldn't have conceded that the evidence already presented stating that the whole tragic incident was an accident was accurate and factual"
It honestly seemed like the Federation legal system was bending over backwards to attempt to accommodate the Klingon.
I think the meta defense for why the the writers had the advocate submitted Worf’s video game logs is because this episode was written in the late 90’s. Most people weren’t actually sure if there was a link between violent video games and violent behavior. There weren’t that many psychological studies at the time and many of them contradicted each other.
Colonel Worf would have won. Regardless if the side taken.
He likely would have insisted on defending his namesake grandson
All of this just shows one thing: Deep Space 9 is full of Logic Holes and whatnot else. It's just a bad Show.
Seriously, about Deep Space 9, one has to note: That's not how War works, that's not how Peace works, this is nothing about how anything ever works!
Seriously, almost any Series ever has Plot Holes or Errors, but DS9 was just unwatchable for me. I couldnt endure it, so i quit...
And i just hate it when people say DS9 is the best of all shows of the Franchise. That's simply not true. Not with that outragingly meaningless Decisions, and Decisions that are outright stupid as heck.
I just watched this episode again today and thought "You know I'd love to see this on Lore Reloaded", and by the will of the Prophets... You deliver.
Are we going to ignore the fact that Sisko is demoted and then promoted back to captain during this episode.
Shit...I had to rewatch it...I never actually noticed that.
I think Lorerunner made a good point about also silencing any remaining House of Mogh supporters back on Q'onos. Just sayin'
Good points all around, and THIS is the video format I know and love, and see ZERO reason to change.
This episode is just one of many prime examples of Star Trek writers writing about a topic they just don't understand themselves... if they'd bothered to hired either an actual judge, lawyer or JAG officer to come work as a consultant for the episode then it would have be an episode that made far more legal sense but that costs money and probable wasn't it budget.
More importantly, why the heck did Starfleet decide that they had to help the Cardassians but didn’t lift a finger to help the Bajorans?
I think the cardassian government was a bigger player and the federation wants to maintain the balance of power.
Wade Blaylock but they weren’t helping militarily at that point. They were sending purely humanitarian aid because cardassian civilians were suffering. This required convoys protected by warships, that put them at risk of getting into a full blown war with the Klingons.
The Bajoran did receive Federation aide, just not during The Cardassian occupation, that would have caused a massive war.
@@Meinfuhrerhoffman Bajor was part of Cardassia at this time, and although the Federation and Cardassia were at war, they really seemed to only have border skirmishes, where they invade neighbouring systems. And I believe Bajor was not near the Federation border.
I do think the Federation really could have put the Cardassia war to rest early on if they had really focused on it, and took the war to them. The Federation was more reactive, than proactive.
might want to hit memory alpha and read up on tng ensign ro episode.
I think you titled this wrong, it should say "That Time Worf Took Acceptable Casualties."
Or "The One When Worf Fell For The Old 'Uncloak Directly In Front Of A Ship Engaged In Combat Trick'"
Conroy Paw How about "The One Where Worf Joins M.I.L.F. and Kills People Who Won't Join the Cause"?
I really liked this episode, especially how it was filmed with the character explanations during the memories and all that
THE FACTS ARE IRRELEVANT
ALL THAT MATTERS
IS THE INTENT
BEHIND
THE ACTIONS
So glad you're doing a breakdown on this to party I have literally just watch them two days ago
As you said, the "evidence" is extremely circumstantial, at best. As to the holodeck program, if memory serves, it was an historical recreation. The only way to play it is to do exactly what the "hero" of the story actually did. By the advocate's "reasoning," Bashir and O'Brien are blood thirsty warmongers for running holosuite programs of The Battle of Britain or The Alamo. Also, those holodeck programs are used fo physical exercise and, as noted, to help him take out his aggression.
As for Worf's personal logs, they are just that, personal. They were originally obtained without his permission or a legal warrant. The advocate plays Worf and paint him into a corner, but the judge should still now allow them to be put into evidence, because Worf's permission was obtained by coercion.(right in front of her!)
As for Sisko as Defense Attorney, if they can get a JAG Admiral to DS9, I'm sure they could also have sent a qualified attorney. This is not like in "The measure of a Man" where the base was brand new, and the only JAG officer present was the head of JAG for that are, with no staff as of yet. Nor is it aboard a starship somewhere far from the Federation. Unless there is extenuating circumstances (I shall have to re-watch the episode), or Siko has a law degree we haven't been told about, then he should have been there at the most as Worf's Commanding Officer who sent him on the mission, and as a character witness.
well ds9 is far from the federation, and it is war time so my guess is that they are very few jags around. But sisko is a horrible lawyer, he let too many things go unchallenged.
Honestly, I feel like Odo shouold have been made advocate. It was his juristiction, he knows Federation, Bajoran and Klingon law, and he was the only Senior officer who wasn't actually involved in the incident.
@@bsotech
odo have never won a case in his entire life.
@@bsotech Excellent point.
1:24 that epic middle finger from Garak to Dukat lol!
Worf is like the neighbor's vicious dog that needed to be put down.
I wish Star Trek would stay away from court cases, since they SUCK at writing them!
Patrick Wise I think the TNG episode “what makes a man” or whatever when they went after data was well written
I'm not so sure. I think that I want Sisko to be my JAG Officer. After all, he was able to get away with destroying that planet's ecosystem.
A JAG officer isn't really necessary in this situation. It's a very informal proceeding. I know what Adm T'Lara says in the beginning, but this was to determine if Worf had done anything wrong in the first place. After that, there would be an extradition hearing. That proceeding would likely be a very public affair, and quite formal. The JAG officer would be appropriate at that point.
So not countering the advocate could be seen as letting the Klingons delude themselves, Sisko defending could be put down to two things, first is that he is the commanding officer of the ship (i.e. the Defiant), Worf had been delegated command but its still Sisko's ship, the second is that its not a full trial/court marshal but an extradition hearing, even if the extradition had been denied of a reason other than the fact that it was proven that there were no civilians on the ship then Worf might still have faces a Starfleet court marshal.
You make a good point about how he questions Dax, one point that is missed though is that the advocate is clearly an idiot with the 'do you view Klingon's as a violent warrior race' given that the witness in question is Dax, as in someone with a previous lifetimes experience dealing with Klingon's from Kerzon, this is one of the people with the most knowledge and experience of Klingon's int he room and your trying to get them with leading questions on Klingon's. The question should also have been thrown out due to relevance, Worf's views and mental state are whats being questioned here, not Dax's.
Then you have the holodeck/suite 'evidence', so how is Worf following through on the historical events in what is effectively a historical reenactment in which he is playing a character evidence? I mean as justified as you are in taking Sisko to task over his uselessness is fine but the same applies to the 'judge', how the hell do they allow any of this to happen, how does the advocate not get himself held in contempt several times over, just the illegal search should have done that and even if they are treating this as an extradition hearing and giving the advocate leeway due to it being a foreign legal system to him he goes way over the line several times. I can only assume that Starfleet has decided they can't be seen to be defending Worf's actions (when they think he killed a load of civilians) so they are letting the advocate do as he pleases so they can't be accused of bias.
There also the fact that it is revealed that the names of the people on the ship destroyed by the Defiant are the same names of those supposedly killed in a crash landing on a planet far from the area in question.
Since tng the cardassians had been building up militarily. The federation had an idea of this from maxwell but decided to “watch” them and give them aid later on. No wonder they were caught with their pants down. The most inept top brass award goes to starfleet.
Cardassians civilians overthrew the military dictatorship . if not for the Klingon invasion Cardassians would have joined the Federation and Dukat never would have taken over and invited the Dominion
"Since tng the cardassians had been building up militarily" and rightfully so, theyre only fault was they just didnt beefed up their Military enough so the Klingons could took a sh*** ton of cardi Space
What bothered me the most is how much Sisko underestimated the Advocate, ESPECIALLY given how much real world experience he had with Klingons.
He was actually shocked and surprised the advocate was using vulcan style logic in his arguments... Picard would have NEVER allowed such mockery of the courts. He would have saw the advocate was appealing to the Vulcan Magistrate and called it out. He would have blackmailed a Klingon counsil member to lend him their best legal minds and had the advocate executed for dishonoring the treaty or something.
But given the experiences Sisko and his crew had with Klingon tactics and honor, you would legit think he owuld have a better grasp on how to handle this situation.
Worf: your honor I request a change in venue and new trial, my defense is an undocumented terrorist and grossly incompetent in Federation law, in fact I’m pretty sure that A Lore analyst with an associates in law could do better.
@2:30 The _existence_ of the Maquis proves the Federation not only _would_ turn a blind eye to war crimes, letting countless innocents die just to save face, but was doing that exact thing at the time.
A soldier looking forward to a fight that has never happend.
The UFP should've left Cardassia to rot and cheered the Klingons on. Cardassia could never suffer enough for Bajor.
Dukat was framed
How many "Bajors" do you think existing inside the klingon Empire but are convienintly ignored by by the Fed becouse the Alliance with the klingon EMPIRE is more valuable to the Fed than the Rights of some under developed klingon slave Races?
You know what? if the Cardassian Union would had been as powerful as the klingons, the Fed wouldnt have give the slightest of sh***ts about the Bajorans, in Fact nobody would had ever heard about them since Partnership with the Cardis would had been more important
A blind man could see Worf's innocence from a mile away 🌌
actually worf was guilty sisko said as much in the end. It's only that worf got lucky he only blows up a ship full of dead bodies.
@@TentaclePentacle Depends. As far as I interpreted the events he did nothing wrong. He could not have foreseen this.
@@Darthvegeta8000 Starfleet's rule of engagement is do not fire on unidentified ships. It makes perfect sense. Even today's navy are given the same order. Worf broke the ROE, he is guilty.
I'm amazed you haven't brought up the case of benjamin maxwell as a mirror to worfs intent and character in this. Because maxwell DID kill for revenge and lust of battle and to murder.
Or even citing his case to the Federation as an example.
They had it coming.
#haditcoming
"Worf! No!"
Classic line, not used often enough.
Worf raises his bat'leth to slay Duras - Riker: "Worf! No!"
Paraplegic Worf is about to stab himself. Troy walks in on him: "Worf! No!"
Worf punches the Klingon legal advocate and knocks him to the ground. - Sisko: "Worf! No!"
Worf hold Troi tenderly and closes in to kiss her. Entire Star Trek Community: "Worf! No!"
They sacrifice common sense for dramatic effect. Sad.
LoreRunner just covered this episode. I know these take a while to put together, and you've probably been working on this video for weeks (if not longer), but I just thought I'd note the rather lolzy coincidence.
You both inspired me to rewatch this episode BTW
I actaully pointed it out on twitter when i saw his go live this morning.. I was like "really?" ..not the first time its happened.. :)
@@LoreReloaded Well, if nothing else, it gives me a chance to compare both reactions.
Yea our opinions are different for sure
The title alone is why I left a like.
I remember the exact night that this episode aired in the U.K., was on BBC2 around 10/11pm on Halloween. I had a big bag of snacks and wondered why DS9 was on LATE, this was why!
I knew you had a love triangle going on!!! XD
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a hearing for extradition, meaning that Worf didn't have to be found guilty. The decision was whether or not the Klingon Empire had a valid reason to put Worf on trial by whatever standards the Federation had to go on. And while on that tangent, it's usually Starfleet policy to leave their personnel at the mercy of whatever legal system they encounter (so long as they're actually innocent of the crime, that is). And yes, I know Star Trek has a habit of turning extradition hearings into full blown trials.
My opinion on the Empire's motives is this: When Chancellor Gowron took everything from Worf, it is (I think) loosely implied that Worf became a martyr to some in the Empire which turned the tables on the Chancellor. It wouldn't take away his power, but it drove a sizable thorn in his side. On that front, Gowron could care less how Worf might wind up in his hands or how the advocate saw the situation. It seemed as though he hadn't been let in on the secret that the transport was a fake, so I think this was all Gowron's game.
The diplomatic side of things: I think that without the truth of the transport coming to light, Gowron would have won. If the UFP refused extradition, Gowron could say that Starfleet was harboring someone the Empire saw as suspect or criminal (given their loosey goosey justice system). He could shame Worf and hopefully remove that thorn from his side. If Worf would be extradited, it would be grapok sauce on his gagh. Getting Starfleet to but out of the Empire's war with Cardassia might've have been a plus, but Gowron demonstrated later on that he's not exactly a big-picture-thinker. In his best case scenario, Gowron's diplomats would probably shoot for Starfleet withdraw and miss, but at least the martyr wouldn't bug him anymore.
Lore Reloaded ( I'm having the last Soda ).
Sisko ( Whose The Captain ).
Lore Reloaded ( Remember when you poisoned a whole planets environment for one Terrorist ).
Sisko (....Damn You ).
@MasterStryfe Ya I forgot it's spelled that way lol.
@MasterStryfe Ya dyslexia is a pain in the butt I have it it just sucks.
I never understood why this case even made it to court. Not only does a Klingon civilian drop its cloak in the middle of a battle but if memory serves didn't it decloak exactly where one of the warships was expected to appear for its next attack run based on an analysis of the Klingon attack patterns?
As for the Federation being weak willed enough to abandon humanitarian aid to the Cardassians if the Klingons win the case after everything the Federation let the Cardassian military regime pull without retaliation there isn't much in the one of idiocy I would put past the Federation government.
Bring on part 2
We saw what Sisko and especially even Janeway did when one of their own knowingly not only committed murder... but a BAD war crime. Even if the admiralty turned a blind eye evidence suggests.. SOMEONE would probably go after them to see justice and punishment done one way or the other.
An about that relief mission.. like Lore said he got his "agression" out in a very advanced public video game... an just cuz it started a relief mission DOESNT mean the enemy will just let you deliver supplies to their enemy... plenty of relief missions began that way and ended in said convoy having to fight a skirmish or even a pitched battle..
Makes one question why and how a prosecutor that lacking in common sense when dealing with ops in a contested warzone got their credentials
With DS9 ever expand cast I am surprised Advocate Ch'Pok never reappeared. Not one of Treks best court room episodes, but Ch'Pok is an interesting character.
ch'pok was executed for his failure.
One thing that always bothered me with this episode is that there is so much talk about how klingons are warriors and how the need for battle and bloodlust runs through any true klingon and yet no one ever brings up the idea that the klingon captaining the transport decided to attack the enemy? I know what happens and the big twist but the first time I watched it that was what popped in my head first.
For not being a lawyer, that was a great analysis! Love these breakdowns!
this is a 12 and a half minute exercise in pedantics
I must admit I have a hard time watching this episode
7:25 Read a Star Trek original series book about the Federation and Klingons have a dispute over an agro world. It's post Organians, so it's decided that who ever has the best harvest after a time span is the winner.
The Klingon farmer say something like "If at the end of the day I look out over my fields with no sign of blight then I won and brought honor to my house."
I like my Klingons like this.
it's the sherman's planet?
Tell me Advocate....ISN'T...IT... POSSIBLE?
Weird that this came out the same day LoreRunner "ruminated" the episode...
Was just thinking that
We all know worf hungers for blood, he craves it. In fact his gamertag is Blood feast island man 69. I rest my case.
worf drinks blood wine, eats blood pie, ofcouse he hungers for blood.
The Terran Empire's entire basis of stability stems from its image of being more moral then the other empires around it, down to its very refusal to call itself a Terran Empire despite being one. Of course the other powers would try to exploit that.
Remember what happened in TNG The Wounded? Maxwell wantonly attacked the Cardassians to prove his (correct) point; Starfleet sent Picard in to bring him back for trial and that was that. Do the Klingons not know about this?
BLOOD LUST!
Try Origami. It helps.
Ok, lore master. Vulcan don't use holograms for pawn thar. That only happen once in voyage. It's normal a older Vulcan that lives in the desert the young one is sent to, help him out.
@Lore Reloaded, I tend to agree with you, Sisko should never be a defense attorney, unless it's "Game of Throne" styled Trial by Combat, but I'd go with Worf in that case. (I think the Klingons actually have that per what Worf did against Duras and Gowron).
Beyond that, the Federation is just a bad utopia; it's too pacifist to survive in such a hostile universe (without an evil computer program protecting it :P ). Politically, Starfleet might be on thin ice right now: breaking the alliance with the Klingons and attempting a near Coup (this is after Paradise lost, so imagine what people would think after that). Yes, it's logical enough to imagine Starfleet scapegoating worf if your own citizens fear you might send armed troops against them or imprison them without just cause under suspicion.
From the angle of Politics and Civilian animosity to a military that attempted a failed coup, I'd argue Starfleet and the Federation were realistic.
Such tactics by Klingons is shocking one would expect that from romulans not Klingons.
True. I remember having similar thoughts when this episode first aired. But then i thought of one of Worf's earliest lines on DS9. "In war, there is nothing more honorable than victory." The courtroom is the Klingon advocate's "battlefield."
@@robertdavis5693 agreed I forgot worf said that.
that Klingon you keep showing next to Sisko looks like the dude who plays Klydon on the Orville but I didn't see him credited with anything from Deep Space 9 on his IMDB page (the same actor that played Tyrese on The Walking Dead).
NO
CHAD COLEMAN
PLAYED
TYREESE
ON TWD
HE WAS IN
TERMINATOR THE SERIES
AS A GOOD TERMINATOR
THE KLINGON IN THIS
DS9 EPISODE IS
PLAYED BY
RON CANADA
HE WAS IN THE
TNG EPISODE
THE MASTERPIECE SOCIETY
THE MOVIE
HOME ALONE 2
AS A NYPD COP
STV EPISODE
THE JUGGERNAUT
AS A HIROGEN
.
You don't need a "search warrant". He may have obtained the private records by underhanded means, but this too would be pointless. Simply adding this to their request during discovery, as their case hinges on Worf's state of mind, would almost definitely be approved.
Also, pretty sure that you have no idea about the difference between civilian court and a military tribunal/courts martial.
"Giving up your rights is not something you should ever allow unless you are forced to do it"
Tell that to the customers of Steam, Microsoft, Sony, EA, Activision, Ubi, Apple, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Verizon, AT&T( and far too many corporations to list) who have given up their legal rights just to use a service.
great video i lost interest in your videos for a while. with your offhanded sarcasm but really enjoyed this
I never really liked this episode of DS9 for the very premise you brought up. I just thought it was lazy writing, but after your analysis, I see it was even more flawed logically, not just laziness, though laziness was pervasive in this episode. I think you mentioned it before in a previous episode of Lore Reloaded, courtroom episodes in Star Trek are laughably uncourt-like as possible, in service of the plot.
Did the Advocate actually need to satisfy a "beyond reasonable doubt" standard? This is a hearing to determine and extradition request, not an actual criminal trial.
the could have odo as a jag officer probably the closest if they wanted to use the normal cast, and not a guest actor
You forget one thing when it comes to this episode just as a court-martial not a trial evidentiary rules and procedures are different in a military-style court-martial as well as having a jagman appointed as your defense in the Navy in times of War a senior officer can filled the road of defense and prosecutor because every officer takes Naval law in my Academy
think a better motivation would be to use this trail as Anti-Federation Propaganda for the Klingon Empire. Like if the Klingon Empire are planning to go to war against the Federation, they would try use any acts that by Klingon Standards are Dishonorable by the Federation to rally their people, also if those Dishonorable Acts were done by a Starfleet Officer that happens to be a Klingon then it would make a Stronger Anti-Federation Propaganda because they could make the case that the Federation caused a Klingon to become Dishonorable
The ploy that the Klingons are trying is not as bad as it initially looks. They are trying to embarrass Starfleet more than attempting to curtail it's activities, similar to the kind of operations the US and the USSR would pull on one another during the Cold War, in the hopes of making their opponent gun-shy about interfering with their activities in the future, or at least make them look bad to other interested parties. It's an act of influence, not decisive in itself but hopefully contributing to changes they want to happen over time.
let the insurance companies sort it out
Do you think a series on The Federation being pure evil out right would be cool or not ?.
I think it would be.
The Immortal Super Being
Yes. It’s called Mirror, Mirror.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon That's one episode right I'm talking like a whole series it could even be called Star Trek The Mirror Generation or The Dark Generation.
The Immortal Super Being
Oooooooh! I see.
You mean Voyager.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon Ha got'em lol ya that Jane Way yikes.
Dude, Kurtzman is listening! I've read that they're developing a Section 31 series starring Mirror Universe Michelle Yeoh - it all sounds about as edgy as a 90s Hot Topic pop punk emo T-shirt.
You should make 89 more videos on this episode.
Seee.. it feels like you are being sarcastic despite your words
First and foremost I know nothing about legal proceedings, however having the commanding officer of the defendant acting as Advocate seems like a really bad idea, does Sisko even have any knowledge of Legal proceedings?
Given the number of objections Sisko gives during the case it could be assumed that Sisko knew that Wolf was guilty as Sin and didn't want to defend him or Sisko no longer wanted a loose cannon under his command.
As for the assumption that the Federation would allow millions of Cardassian civilians to starve to death, because of one isolated incident I consider extremely laughable - bordering on insanity.
worf was guilty, sisko said as much at the end. And sisko is a bad lawyer.
@@TentaclePentacle Worf was innocent by any metric of logic and common sense. I'd have fired as well as would have most people given the info at hand and the circumstances. It was atrocious writing. I get what they were going for but they set it up so badly I just can't see it make sense.
The things you ignore and let slide because you were 14 when you watched the show.
Too be clear I am talking the show episode not lore, I think lore hit this on the money.
Well, they can't make it too realistic or the episode would end with Sisko objecting to the evidence and the prosecution falling apart.
Rules of engagement is a good episode if you're a person who knows didly dick all about how the hell a trial goes and how a legal system that runs off of the presumption of innocence works. In other words, most people I know. That's what really disappoints me.
Thats the klingon point. Say your feelings. To hide who you are would be to live without honor. Look at House of Quark episode and analyze klingon justice there.
At least the writers stay true to the lore presented in massure of a man. The courttrials are almost identical in procedure.
Without Dominion interference Starfleet would not have stood against the Klingon empire and likely would have cooked up a reason to join the war effort
Lets be honest here, the Federation wouldnt be able to defeat any Enemy with common Sense.
@@ottersirotten4290 that's why they'd join the Klingons. Let the warriors have their war and be around to deal with the stuff the Klingons could care less about like reconstruction and administration
While this IS a good episode (great even), the premise of the Klingon Empire's motivation is... bizarre.
So they want to make Starfleet look bad, and make other powers in the quadrant think they don't care about civilians, or even worse, that they commit war crimes. And that somehow this embarassment would keep Starfleet from helping Cardassian civilians.
Except, literally nothing Worf had done this entire episode comes close to what the Klingons were doing. The Klingons had *already* been attacking humanitarian convoys, that is *why* the Defiant was escorting these ships in the first place. And the Klingons attacked this convoy without provocation. Yet somehow they thought the quadrant would ignore this and turn their backs on the Federation because Worf destroyed a civilian ship by accident, or at absolute worst that he was caught up in battle and made a bad judgement call. Let's see, wanton premeditated murder of entire convoys, or one tragic accident, which is worse?
And the facts of the case would cause most tribunals to throw it out. A ship decloaking in a warzone, in the middle of a firefight, directly in front of an enemy ship (and a very well-known ship at that) would raise all sorts of eyebrows.
10:21 Vulcans using sex holograms during Pon Farr was far from cultural practice, if I remember the Voyager episode correctly
Iirc Aircraft are not covered by the Geneva convention
I thought this episode was one of the dumbest they ever made. What the actual fuck? A ship decloaks in front of Worf during a battle with the Klingons who are using hit and run cloak tactics, and Starfleet thinks that Worf should have waited to make sure it wasn't some crazed civilian transport? The most ridiculous part of the episode was Sisko give Worf that little dressing down after the trial, declaring that Worf was completely in the wrong but he got lucky. It was insane.
From now on every klingon Fleet who engages the Fed Fleet will have civilian Ships in theyre ranks xD
the Fed is so stupid...
While putting some eggs on the Federation's/ Starfleet's hat wasn't a bad thing from the Klingon point of view, Worf himself was the main target. The whole situation was s political hit job on him, remember he was a member of a great house and since he lived in the Federation, his younger brother was the head of the house,distracting Worf was a way to remove a threat to Gordon's rule being unchallenged. A powerful noble whom disagrees with a major decisions is a threat
This seems very similar to today’s release of lorerunners TH-cam upload. ;-)
...yea
Perhaps it was made in conjunction? Besides, it's not as if a video like this can be made in a just a couple of hours, and posted. Requires a few days to make one episode!
I'll just be the devil's advocate (see what I did there?) here and say that we don't know how parallel Starfleet's or indeed the Federation's legal system is to that of Earth's of centuries past. Maybe the prosecution can declare his own witness as hostile? Maybe blatant violations of privacy are totally acceptable as long as consent is given afterwards? There's all kinds of weird combinations that could have been cobbled together to ensure that all the dozens of cultures agreed on a justice code.
And if that sounds incredibly convoluted and stupid, remember this is the Federation we're talking about.
Of course Fly... This is a mistake many people make when reviewing law episode of ST, they apply 20th/21st Century American Law to the scenario, when we really have no idea of the intricacies of Federation Law. Is it fair to say Federation Law is inspired by American law? Yes, absolutely, but doesn't mean that it's based on American law.
Parts of the US declaration of independence are inspired by the Magna Carta, but it's not based on it.
I think the thing that makes the Klingons think Starfleet would back off is the severity of the crime, 400+ civilian lives lost, and if the Klingons twist the story right, they may say the Federation did not penalize a murderer, I feel like people underestimate just how many people 400 is, and just how severe an unpunished mass murder would be, real world example.
2015 Gyumri massacre, 7 Armenians where murdered, a Russian servicemen was the main suspect, and was convicted, Russia was originally took in charge of the murder case, Armenia demanded they take charge of it, Russia refused, this caused a massive public outcry, and after the whole incident was taken care of, 1 murder case, 7 lives lost, caused an enormous outcry and loss of support against the Armenian government, and strained international relations between the two countries, these nations have been allies sense the USSR fragmented, and the people have been been cooperating for around 100 years, and this one incident took place which damaged those relations, small damage, but still damage.
Yes the Federation and Klingons are massive governments, far larger in terms of population than all of earth by an order of magnitude, if not more, but 400 lives is 400 lives, and tensions between the two where already showered, and it is already ( likely ), believed the Federation betrayed the Klingons in battle, and incident like this may make other governments believe the Federation is not who they say they are, and to stay away from them, or to fight against the tyranny the Federation is trying to bring upon the galaxy.
Yes, the accusations will be BS, but as one said, the greatest lies have some truth to them, a federation officer did kill 400 civilians, but out of negligence, but he still killed 400 people, many governments and/or species may still see this as murder.
And yes, I am aware that he did not kill 400 people, it was a Klingon set up, but I’m doing this just for the sake of argument, if he did, in my own opinion I do believe it would have heavy ramifications for the Federation.
Upvoting this video will bring honor to your family!
I'm curious as to who's your favourite captain.
Sisko in true federation captains
law and order dun dun dun
Nobody needs to call me a traitor... I already feel like one. But...
When I was a kid I loved TNG, then DS9 and Voy were pretty good too. I also liked Enterprise, I binge the series once in a while. About a year ago I binged Voyager and it was alright, but "meh". Once I was done I tried DS9... It was painful. I hated it, the cast personalities would reverse from episode to episode based on plot needs. It was as if the writers asked themselves "What does X crewmember need to say to make this situation spiral out of control? Do that."
I couldn't rewatch DS9 because it was just so wrong. I didn't notice it when I was in my teens but now everything about it is backwards. Why is the commander of a space station ever even on the front lines commanding a ship? Picard would facepalm that issue alone.
I actually disliked this episode in part because of the obvious type of ships involved. O'Brien was declared an expert in ship combat despite the fact his experience was almost exclusively below decks and in large ships. The Bird of the Prey is a glass cannon (not entirely glass but go with it), it relies on getting in the first shots, waiting for it fully decloak and fire is suicide, if you got the lead on it as it decloacks you have to take the shot.
Of course you are assuming current American law is the law of the Federation. I don’t remember seeing any episode that establishes that, or defines the legal system of the Federation, or Starfleet.
No, it only assumes the Federation's legal system makes sense. I admit that's already a daring assumption though.
Objection! How could she leave you if she was your ex! Your honor, I ask to move to dismiss this case and let my client marry is holographic waifu.