Lore Theory : Did Sisko Order Gowron's Slaying?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2020
- Let's discuss the Klingon Empire and the destruction of Gowron..
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It’s just like when Sisko asked Garak to measure him for a new uniform while discussing the Klingon attack against Cardassia with his staff while Garak was present. This allowed Sisko to obey his order not to alert Cardassia directly while still alerting Cardassia, because he knew Garak would. He can sleep easier at night, knowing others would carry out the work he was not permitted to or else lose his career. It is a very defining character trait of Sisko.
Klingons were allies of the Federation , and even sent their ships to help fight the Borg during wolf 359 . Sisko betrayed them to help their enemies the Cardassians who were still plotting against the Federation shortly before all of this .
and to do all of this from the shadows like this instead of openly standing for what's right with no shame , is kind of dishonorable
@@NitpickingNerd It is true that the Cardassians were plotting against the Federation and the Federation were allies to the Klingons but Sisko didn't betray the Klingons. The Federation was not at war with the Cardassians and the Klingons took advantage of the Dominion situation and went to war with the Cardassians to execute a land/power grab using the excuse of the Ditapa Council being Changelings. The Klingons did not cease their war once it was proven that there were no Changelings in the council. The Klingons were actually betraying the Federation by starting an unnecessary war that could draw in their ally, waste resources, and cause division in the Alpha Quadrant that would weaken them all against a greater enemy. Goworon's actions were short sighted and politically motivated. They were a prime motivation for the Cardassians to join the Dominion. Sisko was actually honorable in this case because he was acting in the best interests of the entire quadrant and not attacking the Cardassians just because he could.
@@NitpickingNerd It's politics! So, yeah, dishonorable. Aren't those two words basically synonyms?
@@NitpickingNerd In war, honor is but a joke only defended by those who have yet to see the carnage of the battlefield. Honor, is walking in lines, straight to your enemy and taking turns to shoot, honor is using cavalry charges, when machineguns exist, honour, is doing Banzai charges with bayonets against soldiers with rifles, machineguns and pistols.
He can still get court martialed for discussing state secrets with a known spy. Not saying he did the wrong thing.
Sisko knew exactly what Worf would have to do. It was a necessary action considering everything at stake
The evidence to back that is the lack of response from Sisko after the duel.
Sisko knew that Worf realized what was going on. He also knew that the Klingon side of Worf was probably conflicted by what Starfleet had taught him.
Sisko just helped Worf see the solution clearly that if General Martok the man Worf respected and was essentially adopted by was going to survive the war that he was fighting as well as the one in the shadows Gowron was wagging against him. Worf had to do something and it was clear what it was.
Honestly I am surprised that Worf didn't leave Starfleet to act as the new emperors enforcer/guard
@@demersmc1 He did leave Starfleet at the series finale to become the Federation Ambassador to QuO'nos. Martok even jokes that now he'll have someone to go Targ Hunting with.
@@danielseelye6005 yes but I meant more immediately. Maybe even to take the spot as head of House Martok while Chancellor Martok ran the empire
Sisko had no choice the hole defense position of the alpha quadrant was at stake and Gowron was not going to stop
Also, when Worf killed Garown he could have taken the position for himself. Instead he gave up the power the the one most deserving, most capable and who was not interested in the job. Worf took the first step in changing the empire by standing aside for someone better and he made Martok the Klingon George Washington.
Often the best people to rule are those who do not seek power.
For Martok to become the Klingon George Washington, he would need to stand aside after a specific term to allow a peaceful transition of power *and* for the succession to not involve combat. Remember that when Gowron and Duras were meeting up on Kmpec's ship that they were supposed to fight for the Mantle, it was K'heylar who informed Picard about the jHa'juQ.
When that episode first came out and I watched it, I too chanted Worf! Worf!Worf!
Klingon honor is like Samurai bushido, or the medeival knight's chivalry code. All sound great on paper, but reality shows the sheer brutality of the truth of it. Or the distortions of the code to further the individuals ambition or agenda.
What if Duras was Chancellor. Hmmm
Or a Trump Chancellor
Maybe the Governor Klingon is
Picard wanted to ask a favor
From Garon
And who helped him
Would have the Federation
Gratitude
sisko: execute order 66
worf: operation dirty deeds done dirt cheap is a go
Federation Order 66: All Starfleet personnel should maintain at least 6 ft of distance from each other during a ship wide outbreak of Rigelian Fever?
I’m stealing this one
Bashir: what happened to morality???
palpatine: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! YES GIVE IN TO THE SECTION 31 SIDE!!
Lol you are a fool
@@stryletz must have been an election year.
He did not "order" Worf to act. Both of them were thinking about the same thing, and Sisko just clarified for Worf that he would have backing for doing what had to be done (as opposed to Picard putting a reprimand in Worf's record for killing Durras).
@Amber Hoke I agree. I was just distinguishing the situation from one where Sisko had given Worf an order and he followed it, even when it seemed extreme or improper. It also was a "Becket approval" situation, so Sisko (and the Federation) could honestly say that they had not ordered the assassination of the Klingon chancellor; it was a purely internal matter for the Klingons, handled under Klingon law and tradition.
I believe the line Sisko says to Worf is something along the lines of, "Do whatever it takes to stop Gowron. He must be stopped." Or similar.
When Captain Sisko punched Q in the face and said "I'm not Picard" I knew immediately that we were dealing with a different type of captain.
But in many ways, it was Q's reply that really set the stage for Sisko: "No. You're much easier to provoke."
@@SSPerfectChaosRCT but notice he never came back.lol
guesse he didnt like getting hit or Q didnt think he was worth comming back to.
probably just couldnt get delancie to do it again
@@SSPerfectChaosRCT and then proceeded to never mess with him again😁
@@danielpaquet3963 He likes poking at someone to see them fall. Sisko throws down. none of his usual playfulness to be had there. Boring, really.
@@manticoraus yeah no banter doesnt make for much of a relationship,if sisco just gonna deck him when ever he tries to speak.
The single best Ezri scene was her talking to Worf where she.. basically says everything you are saying about Klingon honor. That one scene was priceless because you got to hear the POV of someone who hasn't had the kool-aid point out what a bunch of hypocritical bullshit it all is. It's truly one of the finest moments at the perfect time at the end of the series.
True..she did go in hard about the empire but it was worded perfectly and it got Worfs attention...and ours.
Worf, you're the most honourable man I know. And if you are willing to accept this, then what hope is there for the Empire
i like it how it came from someone who also experienced klingon culture by themselves. ezri (or, technically the symbiont) gave an evaluation based on inside knowledge. she knew what she was talking about. it wasn't some kind of outsiders "know it better" agenda. it was genuine understanding and oppinion. just like quark's "let me tell you something about hoomaans" speech to nog. or odo trying to explain to the female founder why solids are different and what and why they value stuff not the same way the great link does. i miss the times when ST was good :(
Honor in history is a very practical and useful thing. It's just our silly western entertainment that doesn't get it. From chivalry to bushido in it's many ways they like religion are principles and ways to channel societal forces. Klingon honor is not hypocritical just complex. It's abuse by the elite in quite a lot of cases however is hypocritical but nothing unexpected. All martial societies, all religious institutions, all grand philosophical constructs end up in that state needing frequent revitilization after internal conflict. Heck even the grand ideals of the lauded Federation quickly go out of the window once prolonged war pops up.
Which is good. The positive points of heroism, courage and true dedication to honor among the 'good' Klingons should always be contrasted with their polar opposites. Those who know the rules and exploit it. Same for the Federation and all factions. It makes a group believable.
I would add that the symbiot had the best view of the empire over decades if not centuries. It is the kind of information that of direct experience that I would think was particularly invaluable.
I always thought that, it was basically Sisko saying the phrase "will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"
Ah, a history reference. I approve.
@@alexandermackie7621 it was either Robert O'Reilly or JG Hertzler who talked about how Trek is almost Shakespearean at times-. someone also commented on how Worf is responsible for Gowron's rise AND fall and how that's also very Shakespearean. the quote is perfect
@@josiahzabel8596 That quote isn't from Shakespeare though.
It's not degradation of his character, it's his realization of how things really work.
Based Pfp
I'd argue Sisko didn't order Worf to kill Gowron as a Starfleet officer. What he did do was give Worf explicit permission to handle the matter the Klingon Empire way i.e. honor duel to the death, which wouldn't have happened if Sisko had forbidden it (as he would have S1E1).
I also think there were definitely politics in play on the Empire's side that either allowed / forced Gowron to engage in such a duel with a Federation officer when he could have 'easily' said "Worf, you're Starfleet not Empire, you're disqualified."
Well, Gowron tried that, and Worf's response was to take off his badge for the duel.
@@jef_3006 I took that more to be Gowron making sure Worf wasn't acting as a Federation officer in the duel, but it's certainly valid evidence that Gowron was trying to avoid the duel altogether.
@@jef_3006 Which didn't work when Gowron insulting referred Worf's outfit as in his words, "Child's Uniform."
I think, in the end, whatever else you may think of him, Gowron was a Klingon. I think he just first tried to dismiss Worf in council by citing his Federation allegiance. But, when Worf renounced his Starfleet status to make his remarks, Gowron was all business.
"There can only be one response to that!" he exclaims before immediately selecting his bat'leth and engaging Worf in mortal combat! He may have been a politician and a schemer, but his heart was Klingon.
I don't think he necessarily ordered it, but I think he was aware of the possibility.
Worf was part of The House of Martok. His job was to serve his house. It was obvious that Gowron feared General Martoks popularity and knew he would serve the empire even if it meant death. Worf saw this and was honor bound to serve his house. Despite this General Martok wasn't a politician and wouldn't challenge Gowron himself.
Gowron had to go if Martok was going to survive to the end of the war. Worf knew what he needed to do. Sisko a man that Worf respected and may have even been intimidated by gave him the go ahead to do what Worf knew was right and in accordance with Klingon Law
Ezri Dax directly tells Sisko that Worf is intimidated by him.
If we use a Bible analogy here Martok is Uriah the Hittite and Gowron is king David and he deliberate sent Martok into a suicide mission. The only difference is Martok survived and Uriah didn't.
The whole series of DS9 seems to be full of Bibical analogies what with Sisko being a Moses figure and the Bajoran's clearly an analogy for Israelites. Which would make Dukat the Egyptian Pharaoh. Just saying.
"Will nobody rid me of this troublesome Chancellor?"
Sisko has to be one of the deepest characters in trek
I always read that scene as Sisko giving Worf implicit permission to handle the Klingon political situation the Klingon way. Given that the clashing of the codes of conduct demanded by each of the cultures Worf inhabits has been a prominent issue for more than 11 years by this point - four of them with Sisko - a scene of Sisko giving the "I'm not going to stand in your way on this one" nod is not only necessary, but helps close out Worf's story as the series finishes. In some respects, Sisko is actually standing in for Picard in this scene, as Picard went through so many of the earlier stages of Worf's constant culture clash issues with him.
That implicit nod of permission to handle things Klingon style *before* Worf jumped into it for a change, is a subtle sign that Worf is finally getting his culture balance right, after all these years, and proves he's ready for the ambassadorial job we'll soon see him take.
Out of universe, putting in this little scene means the writers don't have to make additional time for yet another "Worf gets chewed out for doing Klingon stuff without his CO's permission" scene or series of scenes. They get to show off Sisko's understanding of the Gowron situation (as well as its only culturally appropriate solution), the darker side of his nature that he's learned to embrace, prove Worf is finally finding his cross-cultural balance, and get just get on with the series wrap-up stuff, with no extra baggage to clear. Wins all around.
Another thing to consider is the difference between TOS movie klingons and TNG klingons is how much of a impact that the lose of their homeworld and having to crawl to their former enemies for help would of had. Post Kithomer klingons probably felt lost, and unsure of their place in the world and it could of been they regressed to a warrior only mind set as a way to cope... as way to still feel powerful.
That's an interesting take. I never thought about it, but I certainly can see that being a factor. Not the sole one, they were already heading back into the more Viking-Spartan-Bushido-Hell's Agnel territory (to crib someone else's description), bit that pushed them harder, faster.
Sisko knew what Worf was hinting at. I don't think Sisko knew that he wanted Martok to do it. What is interesting is that it was Dax who convinced Worf to do it himself.
Yes, he did, he said something needs to be done and worf sorted. Oddly if Picard was still his captain, he wouldn’t have agreed with Worf’s solution. Dax is actually the one to convince him to act though, with her “if good men do nothing, what hope is there for the world” speech. Worf is basically a psychopath, with a honour code.
When the fate of the known galaxy hinges on a few acts, the needs of the many billions dramatically outweigh the needs of the few. When you see countless shattered hulks of ships loaded with the corpses of people you went to school with and gave a damn for, you suddenly care less and less about the individual lives of those that *directly* put those people at risk for their own selfish personal gain.
Further, it is important to keep in mind what Martok felt of the idea - he felt, rightly or wrongly, that if he were to seize power the empire may fracture due to his background and upbringing. However, by having someone else basically crown him Chancellor, that eliminated most of the problem.
I would point out that Ezri Dax' diagnosis of the empire was correct, and had been that way since the start of TNG. The Klingon people had more or less lost their way outside of raw battle, and didnt have the, shall we say, broadened view that Worf had accumulated.
Did Sisko order Gowron's assassination? Not directly. But, such WAS legal - and indeed, *expected* - in Klingon law, or rather Klingon life.
I'm not convinced the movies wrote the klingons as obsessed with honour and glory, i think tng pushed that narrative. Just my opinion, great video.
“The first kill is always the toughest, it gets easier after that”
It’s sad that statement is oftentimes so true
Spot on. "Do what you have to do"... The moment The captain uttered these words Gowron's fate was sealed👍🏼
I think that one of the reasons why we see more of the "Honor is obtained through victory in combat" mindset from the Klingons that we see in most episodes is because the vast majority of the Klingons that appear on screen are all "Warriors of the Empire" and as such, that is the mindset that their military has indoctrinated into them.
In the few episode where we have any meaningful contact with Klingons that are not warriors such as in Enterprise and DS9 ( a doctor and a couple of lawyers) it is shown that they also believe that their actions, if honorable will bring at least some degree of honor to their respective houses.
However, there is a statement made by the Klingon doctor in Enterprise that his father (a warrior) was willing to disown the doctor when he chose to follow a path in life other than the military. That however ~may~ have been more due to the father having been a warrior (and having gone through a lifetime of that same "Victory in battle=honor" military programming) rather than something that the population as a whole of the Empire would completely agree with.
The Klingon's Honor code is tide into their faith in the stories/religion of Kahless. So much so, that the meaning and method of obtaining honor has changed with each new generational house within the empire. its how i understand the complex difference between what we know and see about them. Feels like elder klingon's "Dahar Masters" lived long enough to get the true meaning. Sisko ordering Worf to take out Gowron was only logical since Worf was involve in him being Chancellor to begin with. But i figured he knew it was a 90% chance of Worf killing him LOL. shit was epic the way it played into Worfs TNG arc.
So if we adopted the Klingon system then the UFC heavyweight champion would also be President?
I think I saw that in Idiocracy…
@MrJabloney problem is nowdays having brains is much more important then physicality . an older man would also be much wiser and would be a better leader than a younger , stronger guy who is also stupider and more impulsive
Stipe would be a kind ruler.
@MrJabloney No, through out history, the most powerful civilizations were ruled by individuals with the most charisma and/or intelligence and not strength. Being simply strong is doesn't cut it in the long run if you don't the acumen to handle a leadership position.
Still better than the current president..
I'd take Camacho over Trump or Biden.
As is often said; "War is hell".
The war does indeed see Sisko having to dirty his hands, which seems to tie back nicely to what Kira said to him in the pilot about Starfleet not wanting to get its hands dirty.
It's not a "degradation of his character", it's a man having to do things which go against his conscience, in order to stop the bigger things from spiraling out of control. Even through this, Sisko NEVER loses his sense of morality, he just learns that you can't always take the 'moral' route, because to do so would be stupid and more harmful.
Something that is shown time and again in Star Trek is the fact that these "evil militaristic empires" is that their planets tend to look like barren wastelands. Meanwhile, in the core of the Federation, you can't go anywhere without tripping over a lush garden world. Enterprise actually shows really well the kind of privilege the Humans had in their interstellar development. Their first contact was with an advanced and friendly species that was interested in defending them while they developed into an interstellar culture. By the time Earth met its first true adversary, the Humans had already developed a culture of peace and science. Yet, somehow they did still end up pretty militaristic. But, the military did not run the government, which is a key distinction.
The Romulans were exiled from Vulcan and had to find refuge wherever they could (Romulus actually was a very nice planet, but they were at a disadvantage due to their exodus). The Klingon homeworld was rocky and volcanic and barren. Cardassia Prime was barren and choked with smog, and Picard's interrogator even speaks about how everyone was starving before the military took over. These are Empires that were born out of necessity for conquest to survive. By comparison, the Federation is an empire that was allowed to flourish in relative peace and prosperity.
The Romulans self exiled, they were not forced out. It's covered in a 3 book series dealing with the event and "current" consequences. They hated the teachings of Surak.
He didn’t directly “order” it. He strongly implied it. It was understood. But he had plenty of plausible deniability as he never uttered the words directly. A court of law would have difficulty convicting him if it came to that. But what needed to be done was done. (I love Sisko! Best Trek captain ever!)
Lorca: I’m a scheming badass from the Mirror Universe!
Sisko: You’re an embarrassment. Hold my beer.
NOPE, it wasn't Ben Sisko.......it was Ezri Dax. She knew exactly what to say, and when to say it. Never screw with a psychiatrist.
I'm surprised that Sisko and Sloan didn't see eye to eye after the events of "In the Pale Moon Light"
Dax telling Worf that the Klingon Empire should be allowed to die was an extremely harsh, but very true critique of what is happening to a supposedly honourable race.
He definately nudged Worf towards that option - either to convince him to change his tactics or to remove him and suplant him by someone else. Sisko knew that both options were on the table. So he didnt order it per say but he cornered Worf to take action one way or the other.
1:21 - 1:31 Yeah, no “non-essential workers” there. They understand the dignity of work in ways our governors do not.
I just watched this episode yesterday and was thinking the same thing, sisko knew
Considering how important Dax was to Worf's decision making process, how and more importantly why didn't you include that conversation?
The question wasn’t what ultimately convinced word to kill the man.. but did Sisko order it..
@@LoreReloaded I kinda figured that was going to be your answer but considering the fact that Dax's conversation was the perfect companion piece to your thoughts on the Klingon Empire (she literally talked about the fact that Worf spent time cleaning up the Klingon High Counsels 'dishonorable' messes), seems like that might have been worth a mention.
Plus when it comes to Capt. Sisco's thoughts on Klingons in general, the fact that Dax, in a previous host was the Ambassador to Klingon, and had so much experience with them that Worf even mentioned when they met that the Dax name was an 'honored one among Klingons' his best friend might have had some influence in his thoughts on that subject.
To put it in sniper terms, Cisco wiped fog off the lens's of a rifle-scope; Worf was already holding a tight bead on Gowron, he just needed a clearer view.
They are both smart men. Worf knew when Cisco asked for the private meeting what was up, he just needed to hear it from a friend.
When Worf tried to send his brother off with an honorable death, everyone freaked out. But killing Gowron? Perfectly okie dokie.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. In time of war, the law falls silent. Sisko did nothing that Truman, Churchill, Regan, Nixon, Stalin, Hittler, etc, didnt do.
Also, a great DS9 episode.
Lore: Sisko ordered Gowron's death.
Me: *surprised Klingon face*
Sisko was willing to bend or even break the rules if it served the "greater good." I hadn't considered he'd implicitly ordered Worf to kill Gowron, but given Sisko's resolve to win the war against the Dominion it makes perfect sense.
After all, "he can live with it."
Man, at first I didn't like Sisko.
But he grew to be my favorite...
The emissary did what to be done. He had a well grasp of the game
He ordered nothing....
Sisco just has an overzealous subordinate
The reason we respect and see the Klingons as honorable is summed up in one word.......Worf.
Sisco's approach is definitely different than Picard's. In TNG, they always strived to be the bigger person in any situation. In DS9, they couldn't afford to be.
I think Sisko strongly sugessted to Worf that Garown had to go.
The man called Captain Sisko became the man called hawk in this moment.
He simply implied what needed to be done and that is all Worf needed to hear.
Excellent analysis
This installment makes me think about how Sisko would have faced not just a castaway survivalist hell as captain of the stranded Equinox in the Delta quadrant, but how he might have outwitted Janeway vs how Ransom handled her. If Sisko had the innate character to become leader he became facing hard realities in the Dominion War with brutal determination, I suspect that as captain of the battered Equinox he wouldn't have let Janeway's self-righteousness from the luxury of her comparatively comfortable ship get in his way. That would've been an interesting battle of wills.
I'm rewatching the entire Star Trek Deep Space 9. Currently in season 6. I definitely see the transition of Captain Sisko from the first season to now, and I love it
Sisko: “Oh boy here I go assassinating again.”
They say it´s getting easier after the first...guess they are right.
I kinda figured this out when I first saw the episode. I thought everyone knew this. It's not impossible to realize what Sisko did
I've heard the "magician/illusionist" metaphor before. I'd suspected you'd been to film school...you pretty compelling on a pretty regular basis. You post with Jessie about Picard was dynamite.
It just so happens I watched the episode in question last week, and you make a strong case for assassination. I'd sure love to pose the question to Behr or Moore!
This dovetails nicely with the theory that Sisko's a Section 31 asset.
Absolutely correct on everything, true fans of DS9 would have seen Sisko's personality change from season 1 to 7 and after accepting the events in the pale blue moon episode he definitely ordered Worf to kill Gowron
I always found if funny how Worf could straight up murk Gorown on DS9 a Fed run space station and everyone was chill that he murdered the Chancellor but got in trouble for doing the same thing to Duras on a Klingon ship after Duras murdered K'Ehleyr.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.
Good breakdown with some interesting ideas! Anyhow, I guess you've mixed up names 1-2 times (Gowron vs Martok)?
This is what makes Worf such a detailed and complex character - the journey he goes on and his eternal conflict between heritage, loyalties, culture (both human and klingon) and the realities of 24th centaury hierocracies
I just found your channel recently. I like it. You pick up on things I have noticed but also things I haven't.
I think you are the person to ask this question to:
What happened to Worf's brother? Once Worf was accepted into The House of Mortog(?) shouldn't his brother been able to come out of hiding?
With his mind wiped, I imagine they just let sleeping dogs lie. It's my understanding in STO (not canon yet) they fixed this though
@@LoreReloaded what is "STO"?
He was such a great character
The idea of the Klingon culture in Star Trek is that their ideal is honor and glory, especially as exemplified by service to the Empire and bravery in combat. At the same time, their empire rarely actually lives up to those ideals. Basically, Space Romans. That's not contradictory, it's three-dimensional. Kord (the "literal mustache-twirler") claimed that the Federation was at fault for starting the war by exploring/invading worlds the Klingons claim as their territory. When the Organians intervene and stop the war, he says "it would have been glorious," wistfully. A Klingon defending the empire and seeking glory in combat.
No talk about how everything he’s said is almost exactly what Ezri said to worf
The change from the Klingons valuing all kinds of duty to focusing on military alone is kind of made into a real thing in Enterprise, where Kolos explains how when he was young, the Empire valued all manner of professions, and his teacher father and biologis mother encouraged him to study law, but by hte time he got to middle age, Klingons valued only military might.
funny thing is he went after the maquis using biogentic weapons before the domnion war even started so even before the dominon war started we were seeing signs of him really willing to do whats needed for the federation.
An embassy on foreign land is considered to be the soil of it's origin country. Could it be that the Klingon war room in which the succession happened could be considered under Klingon jurisdiction? If that's the case they couldn't punish Worf. When Worf killed Duras, Picard only hit him with going AWOL and the problem with Kurn was that it was happening on a federation controlled station.
Perfect analysis.
So, addressing Sisko's character changed from season 1, to the Pale Moon Light, to the assassination of Gowron, it connects well with your theory that the wormhole aliens were controlling the entire situation. Therefore, that Sisko would disappear at the end of the series, taken by the worm hole aliens only shows that he was either in league with them or controlled by them. He was after all part worm hole alien himself...
This is why I love Sisko, results matter more then rules
MARTOK: I AM THE CHANCELLOR!
SISKO: I AM THE GUY WHO MADE YOU.
Great video. It’s not the only time the Federation remotely directed (or attempted to direct) the internal affairs of the Klingon Empire.
In 'Affliction' Harris from Section 31 says to Reed that the Federation has a vested interest in stability in this aggressive, adjacent polity.
The cataclysmic destruction of the Praxis moon saw intervention by both doves and hawks. Doves led by Spock and William Smillie (CinC). Hawks led by Lt. Colonel Oliver West and Admiral Lance Cartwright.
(albeit at K'mpec’s invitation) The Federation favoured tacitly Gowron over the Romulan sympathising Duras in 2363.
L'Rell uses the Federation’s detonator to force the Klingon High Council to accept her as the new leader of the Empire.
in my opinion Gowron who surprised me the most, his change from a simple warrior, defiant noble house that has the seat of the council, a small guy, to become the chancellor, to a power-hungry tyrant despot forgetting that the federation helped him reach achievements, he turns his back on worf and everything else invading cardassia, to me a useless and senseless invasion! He has changed a lot in the style of the Russian leaders of the earth. I was very fond of this character who died and fell from grace.
Sisko is the most relatable cpt in my opinion, frankly both Picard and Janeway are Mary Sues, even if they have they glorious moments.
When Worf tried to kill Kurn he almost arrested him for attempted murder . He kills a Chancellor and thats totally ok
Usurpation of leadership by combat - if your prove yourself as a better warrior then the right to lead is yours - i would imagine that would be normal thing in a warrior minded like culture of theirs. Kinda like the Orcish - "Might makes right".
@@krzosu There's a reason it's called a "Klingon Promotion".
Do you know the political shitstorm they'd cause if they arrested the guy who picked their next leader for murder?
Justifiable homicide is a thing when you are protecting another who is in danger, and the Alpha quadrant was in danger from Gowron.
Obviously Sisko was advising extreme measures, even if they must result in the death of Gowron, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest he knew _exactly_ how Worf would achieve the desired outcome.
Garak taught Sisko how to order an assassination without ordering an assassination.
Did Sisko order Worf to do it? On one hand. Not directly. Yet Sisko was not going to lose sleep over it. And really. It was an Honor Duel. Legal in Klingon Law. In turn, Worf broke no laws and the Federation cannot take blame over killing a Klingon Leader.
In turn, Worf taking action to not accept the right of being a new leader. He placed it on another. Who was far more deserving and the right person for the job.
I mean Martok is an awesome Klingon and he does not fit that stereotype. Plus he gives the best love advice.
Nop Dax did more to convince Worf . He was on the fence till her pep talk
Honestly, I don't think Sisko NEEDED to order Worf to kill Gowron. Worf's not stupid; he could very easily see that what Gowron was doing was political grand-standing at the expense of lives and the war effort. Even if Worf WERE pro-Gowron, it wouldn't sit well with him, and by this point, Worf wasn't exactly the best friend of the man in charge. Wasn't his most hated foe, but not sharing Tarkalean tea with him either.
Sisko giving Worf the go-ahead to 'do what needs to be done' is vague enough to give Worf leeway to literally do whatever he feels needs to be done. It could very well end without Gowron's death...but in this case it did.
Plus he did acting customs and traditions of the Klingons
I've always thought that Gowron was a few worms short of a plate of Gagh.....
He didn't order Worf to do anything, but it was highly suggested that if Gowron was out of the picture things might go a lot more smoothly. That's all. He let Worf come to his own conclusions since he knew Worf already didn't like the guy
I mostly blame Ezri Dax - her analysis of Klingon culture decadence was spot on and appropriate, but it also stole the rug of Klingon self-complacency from under Worf's feet.
After that, he could no longer accept Gowron political pettiness without admitting his own lack of moral courage (and ACTUAL honor).
Sisko could have hinted at the political necessities of the situation for a whole month and Worf would maybe consider it, but by the time Ezri finished exposing her point of view on Klingon state of affair - the Empire's decadence - Gowron was virtually a dead man.
The emotionally charged term "honor" exists for two reasons: to manipulate oops I mean inspire sacrifices from others, and to absolve warriors of their crimes. I feel like the Klingons of DS9 portray this really well. I think Sisko was clear to Worf that Gowron was to be removed by any means necessary, and that death, while not requested was acceptable.
So both the Federation and the Klingon Empire have confuse ideals that they not always are able to live up to.
That is so much like real life.
And I agree, the Dominion war changed all the Federation, and what changed most was Starfleet, and inside Starfleet, one that changed the most was Cisco.
I would argue that Sisko always had the capacity to do what he needed to do to accomplish a goal. Even as you watch the very early episodes Sisko would always go as far as he thought he could get away with and as he gained more authority the more he was able to get away with.
Trek writers aside, Ezri Dax summed up the "Empire" best right before Worf killed Gowron. "If your willing to tolerate like men like Gowron, what hope is there for the Empire!"
I think you got Martok and Gowron confused in the middle there.
It’s amazing he wasn’t slain in the TNG series
Actually Ezri Dax put the idea in his head.
I think you got Martok and Gowron mixed up quite a few times 🤣🤣
When I rewatch that scene between Sicko and Worf, notice that Worf is the one that lays out the conclusions that the problem between Gowron and Martok is political and that it's something that needs to be fixed or stopped to get the Dominion War to be better managed and winnable. Sisko simply asked Worf what is going on with Gowron and his reckless and wasteful strategic actions; at most, Sisko is jaded enough to say "Do whatever needs done" with the serious intent and knowledge of what that statement means in it's extreme.
I am left with the impression that Worf was already giving serious thought to the necessity of killing Gowron and how to do it. Doing so without the authority and rules of Starfleet is actually something Worf will and has done when he feels it's needed. The Right of Vengeance against Duras ("Reunion" TNG S4 E7), discovering that Romulan prison colony of Klingon Khitomer survivors("Birthright" TNG S6 E16+17), and Worf resigning / taking a leave of absence to fight on Gowron's side in the Klingon Civil War ("Redemption" TNG S4 E26 + S5 E01), are all examples of Worf taking extreme actions on his own.
Worf is an example of an Honorable Klingon, it just so happens that the brutal murder of a important political individual as a result of a dual in the right context is well within that Honor System's workings.
This is why Sisko is such a compelling Captain and character. The episode "In the Pale Moonlight" only reinforces this argument more...
What really put Worf over the line was the talk with Dax (Ezri) in which she convinced him that putting up with Gowron's corruption was not honorable. So, did Dax push Worf's buttons spontaneously? Or did Sisko have a little talk with the "Old Man" and suggest a friendly word to the resident Klingon might be helpful?
Well it wasn’t the first time Worf marched in, challenged someone to single combat, Then left the room with one fresh kill and one fresh Supreme Chancellor.
I just watched this episode (finished binging the series) and I felt that Sisko was most definitely sending worf in to handle it.. Klingon style.. it was obvious based on his tone and previous actions in the war
I did like one idea I believe a novelization of The Motion Picture proposed. That TOS itself was actually just an in-
universe production based on the Enterprise's logs, records, etc. That's why the Klingons look like humans wearing face paint, that's what they actually were in universe, they did not have the kind of medical technology required to do the casual reconstructive surgeries we see done in the TNG/DS9 era yet. And why they're mustache twirlers, there was much less intermingling of Federation and Klingon citizens at the time, so they only saw one narrow sliver of the Klingons and their culture. Due to not only such a short amount of time interacting but only interacting with warrior castes. That and it could also be a form of Federation Propaganda that's bad talking the Klingon people as a whole. Would also explain why TOS series era captains and crews are seen as a sort of cowboys in the TNG era, the tellings and re-tellings embellished things and made them seem more exciting than they actually were.
Granted this novelization would have been written before TNG was in proper production and I could be remembering things very incorrectly.
Ah the good old change of Klingons and Romulans. IN TOS the Romulans are the one with honour... :)
Your comments about combat = honor, and the anti-science were spot on. You never see nerdy engineers walking around, and I'm guessing it's because there are less people interested in intellectual pursuits. How are they expected to equal the federation or Rumulans when the only way to gain honor is through combat?
by not outright saying "Kill the crazy-eyed bastard" Sisko was allowing for all options, not just murder... but it is clear that neither Worf nor Sisko expect Gowron to respond to logic. As a Starfleet officer, Sisko can't be seen ordering an assassination, so he doesn't in so many words. What he does, and honestly I never saw any other way to read the scene, is give Worf implied permission in advance to handle things the Klingon way in the almost-inevitable event that the Starfleet way fails. He fully expected that the only solution would be to challenge Gowron to a duel to the death, but he had to leave the possibility of a non-lethal approach.
Man TNG, DS9 and Voyager had such great writing and characters I just wish Star Trek never lost that... Burnham would just kill Gowron with a smile on her face and take over the empire herself. Worf... did it reluctantly but knew he had to do it for the sake of not only his people but for all the alpha quadrant. He could have taken Gowron's place but gave it to a man he knew has the values he wants for the empire.
Sisko went from an idealistic man who's do everything he could in service to his nation within bounds of the Federation's culture and laws. Then he grew a beard and turned into an American Special Activities Division case officer and did things that, one could argue and would only hope, needed to be done.
Worf and Sisko both knew that Gowron was dangerous to the Empire and the Federation. Sisko dropped a really heavy hint to Worf. Worf knew what needed to be done and that he could do it legally under Klingon law by challenging Gowron's honor and competence.