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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ส.ค. 2023
- My rather lengthy response to Lore Reloaded and his various claims regarding how the Federation is an evil corrupt and evil organization. So lets go throught and one by one Debunk these spurious claims. And look into why Admiral Leightons coup failed, as this demonstrates the true essence of the Federation and her Noble Ideals.
Lore's Orginal Video: • Star Trek: 8 Reasons T... - บันเทิง
For a quick understanding of Lore's stance on the Federation jump to the 2 minute 19 second mark on this excellent video Venom put out in April th-cam.com/video/CtAGR-nKGOc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eLL0Ai0dybQpvkPf
Much better to watch the actual video to make up ones' own mind, imo. It's in the description. I'm not sure which to watch first. Hmmmm....BRB....
Just watched both. Both have good points, but 2 points.
1. Venom is more correct in his analysis of the federation.
2. I think Lore is drawing real life comparisons to the US govt. Creeping censorship(Elon directly saying that letter agencies were directing censorship on ex-twitter)(as other platforms). So they are outsourcing censorship to private corporations). That should be treason against our constitution. If they take a single penny from our govt, they are a state like actor.
You can aspire(or claim to be) one thing, and be the compete opposite. "National Socialism Party" for example. Not socialist in anyway. DPRK(not democratic in any way). USA claiming to have a free-market economy despite large corporations and banks setting policy to benefit them and gaining monopolies. Hundreds.....literally hundreds of examples are about. Aspirations mean nothing, actions do. And starfleets aren't always good, nor is the USAs.....They can and should be, but greed and money win out.
Oh, journalism vs what we have now "access journalism". Only those carrying the correct message get access to our leaders and what they want said.
Edit: fixed a typo. ".only" changed to "money".
I assumed people would understand journalism vs "access journalism", then re-read the comment and realized that most probably don't. Journalism is about "holding power to account and ensuring they are always questioned constantly on their actions and reasoning to ensure they ALWAYS have the best interests of the PEOPLE in mind". Whereas Corporate controlled access journalism is not asking the hard questions, not asking for proof, not doing anything the politicians won't like(so they don't lose access or ruffle their corporate masters desires/intended message to lead and or mislead the general public). It's why people called so many "journalists" in the USA are known as "presstitutes".....because these people and what they say are controlled by corporations and will say anything to keep their easy paycheck. You can even see on youtube CNN saying(paraphrased), youtube it for exact wording: "we make the news, they don't get to decide".
"Spreading freedom and upholding democracy"......while supporting monarchies and dictatorships that do what they want. As I said there are HUNDREDS if not thousands of easy examples. I THINK that Lore is trying to get people to watch and learn if and or how starfleet and our govts can and/or ARE changing because of their greed and desire for control. Time will tell, but it's very telling that many of our vets live overseas.....Who else to better KNOW the truth??? SHOULD make you think....Many in what the US labels "police states" like Vietnam, yet if you go to Vietnam for a year, you will not see 1/10,000th of the police you see in the USA.....nor do they spy on their citizens like the USA does.
It one thing to claim to be one thing, yet be another, that's hypocrisy and deception for the sake of power and money, and control.
The church CLAIMS to be about saving souls etc, yet you pay them money to tell you how to live your life.....lol. One of MANY ways you pay for your own subjugation. Same as paying for the "news" in the USA or UK.....you're actually paying for corporate propaganda on how they want you to think so they can do what they want(and maintain their profits), no matter the cost to your way of life and cost of living. Something to think about yes?
SFdepries also had something to say about star fleet military, but his was a critique of how Starfleet insisted it's not a military and the tactical thinking was only a small part of being an officer.
He rightly called out how childish and hypocritical that stance is and we see constantly Starfleet paying for that belief
This was also the golden age when Star fleet hadn’t had any big wars in 70 years, and diplomacy and logistics was the focus of Starfleet. The most military experience we see came from legacy admirals and captains who were part of cardassian border skirmishes, which saw deployment of only second and third line Starfleet ships, nothing even from the present century, maybe some ambassadors later on.
@@mackenziebeeney3764 and Q called them out on that.
When the golden age provides problems other than war, it should be no surprise that the solutions are not war solutions, and efforts are not pushed towards war efforts.
That said, there were voices in SF and the Federation who recognized this fact and pushed towards rectifying it... Ala the D playing a wargame with Riker and Riker thrashing the D.
But when I look at Starfleet who hadn't fought a war in ages vs The borg, they did what anyone would have done. Gather a big fleet and smash it into the Borg cube. Because they didn't know any better... And knowing is StarFleet's greatest strength... Or rather, discovering the unknown. But when facing the Borg they didn't take the time to discover who they were fighting and adapt to them. That's the problem.
SF officers are taught to adapt and think on their feet. Ironically it was going with the Admirals plan that got them all killed. One large scale assault designed to overpower them, instead of stringing out the skirmishes like they did in First Contact. I don't think it was that they were complacent... I think they were just used to finding other ways to win that didn't involve combat. But when combat came, SF rose to the occasion, and what they didn't know, and what they didn't prepare for killed them. Because SF's motto and driving force is to be prepared to face any eventuality.
That said, that golden age provided SF a wealth of scientific discovery and information that allows StarFleet to adapt faster than a large organization should. SF's technical strength is in it's technologies ability to adapt to any event instead of raw power. But you can only fight smart for so long before you come up against a foe where smart fighting won't cut it and you need to break out the big guns
@@davfree9732 Agreed. There's this great insistence that the Golden Age was negligent, weak and pacifist. I think it looks like that because we see how formidable Star Fleet becomes in the Dominion War but rewatch season one and 2 of TNG. The height of the Golden Age and Roddenberry's power and idealism. The entire reason it takes Picard seven years to join the Poker Game is that for all he looks like a soft diplomat compared to Kirk, Sisko, Janeway and Archer, Picard in TNG was a hard pragmatic officer who was experienced in war.
This is the man who lost his ship in the first (to their knowledge) military encounter with the Ferengi. And yes saying Picard lost his ship to the Ferengi now sounds like a joke but they were intended to be the literal representation of capitalist exploitation and one need only look at America to see how terrifying that is.
The Enterprise D stood toe to toe with the Klingons and the Romulans and both of those forces were outclassed and manipulated by the Dominion and the Borg. In both cases of external impossible to prepare for forces it was Starfleet that was able to defeat them.
That's a very interesting notion about Khitomer that I never thought about. Military Officers negotiating a peace treaty. There are many, many examples in Earth history where having the military be the face of the government is a bad idea. Civilian control of the military is the mark of a free society.
Also, remember Quark's description: "Its so bubbly, and coy, and happy. Just like the Federation."
Garak "It's insidious "
@@desperateneedofscotch I agree
Quark was right about one thing humans are only nice when they have everything they want handed to them on a silver platter metaphorically speaking but when humanity has nothing they become ruthless savages, which is why when humans in the Federation say their more evolved I would then say horse shit, your only nice when you have everything your heart desires but when you have nothing your basically become barbarians. Just look at the 32nd century when dylithium was running out Earth and Titan in the Sol system alone where brutally attacking each other for years until the USS Discovery came along and I bet Quarks spirit is laughing in his version of a after life some where saying I told you so.
Joy and happiness is infectious and addictive.
The federation enables the most happiness of its galactic neighbors.
You can keep your own culture and your own values, we have our values. If they’re compatible you can join if you want to. If they aren’t, you don’t have to join, we can just trade, or not. Up to you.
Starfleet is about exploration and self determination.
@@mackenziebeeney3764 they are only that relaxed about other minor races joining or not, is because they know that if they spread all around you, in a few generations they will get you trough cultural osmosis.
I can see why someone would make the mistake of seeing the federation as an authoritarian state because the federation has yet to be portrayed from anywhere but a starfleet perspective. Life from outside starfleet is only glimpsed and has never been fleshed out. I'd imagine that federation citizens have enormous personal freedom.
Yeah. It's like watching NCIS and thinking the US Navy is the government of the United States.
But there's a reason we see it from a Starfleet perspective. Because Star Trek is about exploration, it's more interesting for us the adiance to see Starfleet.
@@Starfleet8555 Also, as long you don´t wont a show about personal drama it would be booooring as hell. Theres a reason most epic tales play in times of conflict and strife and dont stay in the shire.
If you want to understand the Federation, look at NATO for a real-life comparison.
@@christopherstephenson7199 I think the Eu is a better comparison, but that is also not on the nail. If anything, the UN in a more real sense would be fitting if it had a foreign policy
As early as TOS, we see that Starfleet is far from all-poweful, even within the borders of the Federation. In The Trouble With Tribbles, we see Kirk bow to the increasingly petty and out-of-perspective demands of a civilian official on his ship's time and resources. Kirk doesn't like it, but he does it; because Starfleet is ultimately under the authority of a civilian government, just like the militaries of C21st democracies.
As for the claim that Starfleet has some kind of veto power over access to interstellar travel, I think that idea can be very quickly answered by the mere continued existence of one Harcourt Fenton Mudd...
Joseph Sisco got his restaurant because he was in the witness protection program.
I thought he was admiral cartwright in hiding...
He forgets the United Federation of Planets exists separately from Starfleet, the UNFP has its own ships The Raven was a UNFP science ship, not a private vessel, most federation races have their own indigenous ships too.. races with their own craft, Mining groups as well...
This was always my understanding as well. Kinda like the original ideas behind the US, or EU. Individual cultures and "states" that are basically autonomous but still have a higher governing body for defense, interstellar trade etc.
You do realize that Starfleet is the military and exploratory arm of the Federation?
It doesn't exist seperately from the Federation. It is in fact part of and subordinate to it.
You know, the way the US military is to the US government.
@@Jasmin_Pepelko What he is saying is right. He is not saying that starfleet exists separate from the UFP, but that the UFP exists separate from Starfleet. For example you wouldn't say that the US government is a part of the US military, you would say the military is part of the US government. Unless you live in a military dictatorship this is usually the case.
@@Jasmin_PepelkoBut each planet in the Federation still have their own "internal" police and military for their own recognized physical political space.
Starfleet is the U.S. Armed forces. The local Andorian or Vulcan forces are just that, local jurisdiction.
Starfleet should be more alligned with the idea of United Nations blue helmets.
Since Starfleet doesn't consider itself as a military force. But still has the force necessary for peacekeeping mission
even tho its primary goal is exploration (scientific and diplomatic)
On press censorship it is actually amazing how even during the biggest war in modern Galactic History (therr are many references to major powers and wars existing in the distant past who seem to have had their own wars) Jake had an amazing freedom
Two points:
The UFP is a federation. That means the planets have a very high degree of self-rule. There are some overarching laws, but most of the laws and governing system is left at the local (aka planetary) level.
Starfleet is a combined military/exploration/diplomatic service. We do not have anything like it today. The closest would be in the 18th and 19th when communications between the government and ships could take months and naval captains had the authority to open diplomatic relations and in some cases acted as the governor of various areas. For this reason alone, Starfleet would have a seat in any committee that may involve defense or diplomatic relations with outer regions. As you pointed out at the Khitomer Accords, those in Starfleet uniform stood BEHIND the civilians. In the case of the US Presidential Cabinet, there is a Secretary of Defense (a civilian), but right behind him is the Joint Chief of Staff, representing the uniformed military.
Some people are so cynical that they can't even imagine a fictional future world where things are better.
Amen
He never mentioned the crime the federation committed against the marquis. They were forcibly relocated at the barrel of a gun because star Fleet signed a treaty and gave their homes away. He didn't even mention the first act of war between those 2 sides. Such holier-than-thou do-gooders as the federation though don't acknowledge their victims. It's like the question at the end of the watchman movie how many more bodies are required for the foundation of paradise?
Eh, the writing is what it is… And like any art.. I’d say there is some interpretation :)
@@deadend1041the Federation and Starfleet warned people not to settle on those planets in the first place. The Federation didn't give their homes away, they withdrew their protection, protection they never should have provided in the first place because those planets had been in dispute for decades, before anyone even settled there.
Wake up dummy. It’s propaganda for both agnost materialist chauvinism and tranhumsnism. It did not click for me until years later I noticed the worst human beings actual fascists etc LOVED trek. I couldn’t fathom i but I realisedi was blind and naive as a kid
In the game of Civilization, the Federation are going for the culture victory.
I don’t dislike him or his channel but he’s so sarcastic and jaded lol
That why I like his stuff. 😂
to be fair star trek does have some serious world building issues.
@@1000nodThink of it as a snowball, it just picks up stuff as it rolls
Thats most of he has to offer really.
@@rmcdudmk212me too
Keep in mind LoreReloaded is making these clickbaity thumbnails and questionable topics to drive views on his channel. Its not coming from a place of wanting an honest discussion. Views are the priority.
He used to make more "normal" Trek discussion videos earlier in his career, but along the way he started making more and more outlandish video essays (trying to get more views). Now it's all he does.
Typical LoreReloaded video is some photoshoped image of a main character made to look more evil or sinister. And the title will be something like:
"The Federation are the TRUE evil"
Or
"Janeway is a crazy genocidal MURDERER"
Or
"The Romulans were RIGHT about the Federation."
Or
"Klingons SUCK at everything! Ferengi are best"
Its just what LoreReloaded does now. Outlandish video essay topic with evil looking thumbnail.
And in a way, by taking it to the extreme he deliberately shows the argument is in jest.
He's also really fallen way into his current-day ideological feelings of being all cynical and anti-government and really anti-social progress and paranoid about the idea people can actually be better without there being some shadowy insidious horribly 'tyrrany' about competence and all. Those political impulses also really do use 'contrarianism' and re-appropriating of pop culture to really disrupt anything that might be positive and especially aspirational. Taps into that regressive 'fandom' element as well as some number of views and attention about controversy, while validating a certain type.
To be fair...Janeway IS a murderous psycho if you measure her decisions from the start of Voyager to the end.
That wasn't how she was intended to be written but a consequence of Rick Berman's "devil-may-care" attitude towards scripting, and especially his utter disdain for continuity going from episode to episode.
Remember: Berman was the man who coined the phrase "dumbing down" when describing what he wanted to do to Star Trek to make it more appealing to the masses in a TV Guide Interview back in the late 90s.
@@desperateneedofscotchMaster Debater… and Masterbater, no doubt!
People still pay any attention to TrollRetrolled? I thought his 90's edgelord takes and clickbait hijinks died off before the pandemic... The Internet is the greatest invention in human history. Its most unforgivable sin is that it allowed the "village idiots" to find each other and commiserate. Here online they can ask each other serious deep questions like, "How many MAGA hats do you have? I gots 9!" and "Did you watch the latest from LoreReloaded?"
Lore Reloaded has done some good videos in the past. He has some interesting theory videos, such as the Q and their relationship with the Borg as an example. Another interesting one is the paradox of how the Romulans probably used findings from the wreckage of the Enterrpise C in designing their future warships. However, I do find myself wincing at the occasional click bait cynical Federation video that shows up. It's reached the point where I feel like his opinion of the Federation is well documented and he is just retreading old ground.
Haha I thought you meant Q as in anno
I don't know... feels like he's on the MAGA/Conservative path pretty far already. It's THERE in the content.
@@miguelvelez7221 Yeah I stopped watching years ago now because he was so blatantly twisting canon to justify his perspective.
What about anything involving Voyager? As he is biased against the series. I bring this up because he mistakenly says Starfleet sent out a ship with family on board to go up against the Maquis in the Badlands, as well as into the Delta Quadrant. One, the Intrepid class was *not* a family ship like the Galaxy class. Two, only one child was born onboard the ship, and the other children were adopted from the Borg. Three, Voyager had *no* facilities for civilians the way a Galaxy class like Enterprise D did.
Thank you! Your absolutely right! And as you know, Lore Reloaded has a bit of a dystopian mindset.
Also remember that even Section 31 wasn't even that dark, they knew they were compromising their principles and felt it was required but still attempted to minimize the compromising that they needed to do. The founders were the extreme because that was the only way they could accomplish saving the Federation. Keeping the Romulans in the Dominion War wasn't accomplished through killing the Senator it was done by destroying her influence and outright embarrassing her, the Romulans would have kept her around in shame as an example and not executing her because it would be a better example.
you sound like a federation apologist
And they are always (before Discovery anyway) portrayed as the Bad guys.
@@farshnuke I think they are more portrayed prior to that which we will not speak of (why you insist to speak of it I know not) as a necessary evil. They are not good by any measure but they are a solution to the evil paradox from Code Geass. They know there is evil out there that cannot be defeated by just means. So rather then allow the Federation as a whole to stain its self with evil or to surrender to evil Section 31 does it for them. They stain their hands with evil over and over so that the greater evils fall and the Federation can prosper.
They revel in the knowledge that the Federation will survive by their actions and are willing to become monsters so that it will. And they will do it with a smile.
And great now I can only imagine its leadership doing a Zero Requiem in space should Section 31 become to public.
Data's Brother always causes mischief.....
Thank you Greek venom media 98 for For defending the federation. I was shocked too when I saw the words . I get it the federation isn't perfect but at least they're trying .
Yes, there are plenty of civilian transports people could book passage in.
DS9 showed that a lot. The Replimat was a place for such travelers to eat.
And ships like Rio's was expensive transport. There were ships like we see in The Mandalorian in the Milky Way
I forget, is Lore Reloaded the one that thinks Section 31 is the OFFICIAL Federation intelligence Agency? Instead of Federation Security and Starfleet Intelligence?
from the sounds of it... yes.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 His takes used to be interesting. Then became a devil's advocate forcing the viewer to question their assumptions. Lately, I'm trying to decide if i should just unsubscribe.
Lore thinks everything StarFleet is secretly a fascist cult.
I have a theory [that I posted on his channel] that Section 31 is a _necessary evil_ that *allows* Starfleet and the Federation to be good and idealistic, and without them as a _secret_ guardian and watchdog the Federation evolves into one of the Mirror Universe Dictatorships.
They are completely secret, so they are not an instrument of State terror - you can't be scared of something you don't even know exist. And they aren't interested in being the power behind the throne, they really just want to protect the idealist so that the idealist can run the Federation.
They would have opposed the coup attempt in Paradise Lost .... and secretly may have? A bit of help to Sisko that he wasn't aware of.
They keep the Federation _nice..._ through any means necessary. But without them the Federation becomes the Imperium, just in order to survive the threats against it.
@freelancenerd4804 Wasn't he one one the original guys to often wear SF uniforms? I no longer get those videos in my feed.
My thoughts on each point regarding the Federation;
1) Censorship/media control; since Star Trek itself was also made from a US-based viewpoint any "antagonism" would be based on that news style and the Universal Translators while "standard" were mostly treated (at least during the pre-2280s) as being an Earth-based system as Chekov in "Undiscovered Country" stated the universal translator would "be recognized" 2) The Maquis; their growth was because of a dislike for allowing Federation citizens to become "citizens" of the newly-expanded Cardassian territory and used terror to strike at the CU, within this the idea of Starfleet as a police force is rarely seen and only in the case of Harry Mudd would this be applicable, 3) "Starfleet is a military ergo the Federation is a military:" does not work because the Starfleet command structure would require a hierarchal-style system to ensure command worked and nobody took drastic action without making things worse for other regional powers, 4) Starfleet monopolizes travel: what?, 5) replicators: I'm sure this as ubiquitous a system as the UT as a variant was recognized by T'Pol in "Dead Stop," 6) inequity: depending on how one defines 'inequity' it's likely to remain within the Star Trek universe in some degree as the social challenges associated with competition add drama and thus ensure some level of interest within the series, 7) Section 31: they shouldn't exist to the level they do because at least with DS9 they make a point of calling themselves out as "covert operations" which negates the ability to work within the shadows compared to the 'secret police' of the Romulan Tal Shiar.
Looking at the timing of Leyton's coup is important, it was nearing the height of tension within the Dominion War, the attempt at blood screenings was out of a xenophobic fear that Changelings were "hiding in plain sight" and could destroy them from within (likely a callback from the writers to the Red Scare of the 1950s), the decision to "regress" Starfleet to it's late-23rd century form would have been during the intervening period between the heightened security of the challenges posed by the Klingons and Golden Age presented at the beginnings of TNG, and thus with the focus of defending Earth those within high-level positions who agreed with Leyton likely would have been swayed by this. Add in the near-recent schism with those like Eddington chose to defect and fight the Cardassians within the DMZ, there could also be the fear those "radicalized" officers might turn on the Federation itself. I apologize if this sounds like a rant, but I was trying to write this while going through the video to keep track of the points (I might have overlooked or missed one) as they were being made
Related to your point on travel, it's quite clear in the shows there must be a large number of populated independent worlds that are actually completely surrounded by Federation territory, yet both their citizens and Federation citizens are allowed to travel to and from each others' sides at will for whatever reason. This is how the Orion Syndicate works and has such an influence still all over the Federation because of free travel and soft borders with those interior independent worlds where they setup their operations.
I think another point not pointed out is if the Federation was so controlling, why would they tolerate members from having their own military. The Andorians, Telarite, and Vulcans have their own military, and I assume Earth does as well since they talk more about Earth's own separate defenses (make me think the Macos still exist, just not part of Starfleet). Yet we know by the 24th Century, many races still have their own military, with Vulcan ships leaving to explore beyond Federation space.
And if you want to make the argument that the Federation controls all military, just not overtly, then why did they let Batazeds neglect their own defenses to be undermanned and 20 years out of date. It is believable that a pacifist member neglects them, but not a totalitarian government looks to keep its people under control. Especially a species that could be used to read the thoughts of citizens to enact better control over the population. If it was the Dominion, Betazed would be the second most defensible world in Dominion space, just shy of the Founder's homeworld.
You are right about Earth because in the TNG episode, best of both worlds, they reference a Mars Defense Fleet attacking the Cube. Star Fleet seems to be the main power but there are probably militia units (I think of it like the National Guard vs. US Military).
@@volbound1700mars defense fleet could be a star fleet fleet similar to how the u.s. has a Pacific fleet and an Atlantic fleet
@@cludecat7072 I thought that but it looked very amateurish for Star Fleet. It gives me more of a United Earth militia feel. Granted, the writers of Star Trek don't analysis this stuff like fans do. Often these items are retcon lol.
@@volbound1700 could be a sort of almost coast guard style: older or worse equipment
I think the Maquis is a great example of starfleet not even wanting to deal with them.
at any point they sent the bare requirements to deal with his, hoping they could just talk their way out of it.. never trying to wipe these people out.
You’re right in regards to the Federation being … sort of good (I’d say more Lawful Neutral tbh) and you’re very much right about civilians free access to the cosmos Although the F17-Class, what the La Sirena was is classed as a “Speed Freighter”, and seems to follow this in its design with its bridge being a Slrt of Main Area that’s Bridge/Cagro-Bay/Engineering Area (With that Glowey thing in the Back OBVIOUSLY Being the La-Sirena’s Warp-Core I decided to say it was part engineering aswell), and unlike its Star Wars Contemporary in the “Millennium Falcon” looks like it can transport stuff other than people in its interior and does, it actually is a 24th Century version of an Independently operated Tramp-Steamer, except is a Spaceship.
I’d say that Starfleet is as Kirk says in TOS, it’s mostly a Peacekeeping and Government run Scientific Research force, but has the ability to be converted to Military if Something like “The 4-Years War”, “The Federation Klingon Wars of 2256 and 2372” (Although lets be honest the former was a real war while the latter was a soured relationship with a few skirmishes), and “The Dominion War” ever happened.
As for Replicators, i can definitely imagine that it started out as a Civilian product, likely Developed by Daystrom Institutes and Sold under some kind of Daystrom-Run Technology Company, Like maybe “Daystrom Technologies Inc.”? But Replicators don’t really work like that, they do require materials to operate, but they Break other Materials down into their molecular components and either recycle them if it was replicated before, or break them down to be used for something. You can probably make a Chicken Dinner from a Pile of sand of you wanted with some kind of Wine and All. And there’s also Two Types of Replicators, Commodities Replicators, and Industrial Replicators, the latter of which is basically a Far larger version of the Commodities replicator. Both operate using pre-requisite patterns stored in Databases that are Built up from the Atomic level inside the replicator, this is probably how Voyager Both Had so many Shuttles and Torpedoes, yet also had Replicator Rations as Currency to conserve Replicator Storage, Most its Replicator Energy was going into making industrial components like Replacement Parts and New Equipment. Also Speculating the reason why Voyager went into that Living nebula one time was because the particles in it were so dense that it could potentially Refill the Replicator’s Atomic Storage Banks to capacity for at least awhile.
And yeah, you’re extremely right about how much cultures are important to the Federation, and further out the more opportunities and Freedoms you had to construct a society and culture of your own, back in the times of The British, French, Spanish, and Portugese Empires, Colonialism Operated EXACTLY like that, Less bureaucracy father out you go.
And yeah i can definitely see what you said about Starfleet being more militaristic and more ingrained with Federation Politics in the past, and agree that Yes Starfleet still serves as sort of a Police-Force/Military even in Picard’s time but it’s not as well ingrained in Federation Politics and the Federation itself is more Strict about making sure Starfleet Officers are acting under protocols and dealing those who’ve crossed lines, Cartwright, Leyton, and Dougherty as few big examples, Dougherty being from “ST IX: Insurrection” or as Captain Liam Shaw of the USS Titan-A put it: “That time ‘Someone’ threw the prime directive Out-the-window to Snog a villager on Baku.” Or as I would say it “That time ‘Someone’ threw the prime directive Out-the-window to Snog a villager on Baku while also preventing a Bad-Apple Starfleet Admiral helping a Dominion-Allied Alien Race from Relocating 600 people against their will for a taste of immortality.”
Yeah you’re right, 24:40-25:00 and that’s what happened to Captain Erika Benteen, The Captain of the Lakota, She Disobeyed Leyton’s orders to Destroy the Defiant and Escorted them to Earth, after the Fight both the Lakota and Defiant had. and Yeah, if the Federation was Authoritarian, Leyton wouldn’t have been Dealt with, if anything Leyton would’ve dealt with the people wanting to deal with him, You want a Truly Authoritarian Starfleet? Look at the Mirror Universe, The Terran Empire, THAT’S Authoritarianism and militarism, it just wouldn’t stand, and Not even for almost 1000 years, like what we see in the later 3 seasons of Discovery.
Lore Views Starfleet in a pretty shoddy light because it doesn’t fall within the per views of what he THINKS Starfleet should be, and Starfleet, while bureaucratically strict isn’t as strict as he makes it out to be, While I haven’t seen this particular video of his yet, i’ve seen many similar ones he’s put out, and yeah, he thinks the Federation is too strict, like it’s holding its citizens back and stifling what they can and can’t do, while Highly competitive Yes, it’s certainly not that, in fact it’s the opposite, the Federation is a Utopia, not a Dystopia.
Some of their decisions do make you wonder about the "utopia" part tbh, that's why Lore's videos are fun (at least to me), interesting what ifs.
However, the Federation is certainly the better place to be than their neighbors tho, as far as has been seen on screen. They do make some incredibly stupid foreign policy moves tho.
I've been subscribed to Lore Reloaded for a couple of years now and his takes just keep getting worse. Whether its his endless ranting about Tuvix's life being more valuable than the lives of Tuvok and Neelix (two lives are inherently more valuable than one, especially when one of those lives is the ship's executive officer), his constant attempts to denigrate the Federation based on nothing more than some inferences based on set dressing or one-off plotlines, or his regular efforts to just be needlessly contrarian, it gets tiresome.
in the Falklands war, you hear the journalist say "i counted all the planes out and all the planes back in", so he didnt release numbers.
I really like Lore’s alternate take on things, but he absolutely pushes it to the extreme, “Starfleet was basically the bad guys” and all. He’s very convincing, though.
Lore Reloaded and being convincing?
Now i understand why cheap propaganda works even today
If you say a lie with enough conviction
People who don't know better will believe it
It just feels like a lot of genre fan community content makers are actively lacing their shit with a lot of RW/MAGA styled talking points about society. It's LESS prevalent in the TREK community as the Star Wars one but it is there and I think WE collectively have to start grappling with it seriously.
Convincing how? He is just plain wrong, especially anything involving Voyager, as he is biased against the series. I bring this up because he mistakenly says Starfleet sent out a ship with family on board to go up against the Maquis in the Badlands, as well as into the Delta Quadrant. One, the Intrepid class was *not* a family ship like the Galaxy class. Two, only one child was born onboard the ship, and the other children were adopted from the Borg. Three, Voyager had *no* facilities for civilians the way a Galaxy class like Enterprise D did.
The idea that the Federation is evil is insane.. Even in modern trek, even with section 31 (or w/e its called) the federation is at least neutral to external politics and do take care of its citizens.
This reminds me when Film Theory called the Federation fascist.
I stopped watching that channel as well. 🤷🏻♀
In all fairness to Lore, assuming the worst of people is almost always the safe bet.
I think part of his decline was a shout out by some of the star trek cast members. That is where it started to change or the personality came out more.
Edit: It was Ezri who did the shout out to LoreReloadeds channel.
In a sense it could serve as vindication of his views, because hey DS9 cast member shouted me out.
Problem is with Lore reloaded he doesn't exactly understand "in good fun" I've noticed over the years he considers anything that doesn't agree with him as a personal attack on him even if it's just a simple all in good fun counter point and then throws up a video whining about it.
I like Lore Reloaded and your channel. Its a fun to debate the world of star trek.
always enjoy venoms counter views myself
@@desperateneedofscotch Fat Electrician would be awesome.. Love his content
He's wrong about most things
I think too often Trek as a fandom uses "Federation" and "Starfleet" interchangeably when they're very much NOT. It seems very clear to me that Starfleet is the military wing of the civilian Federation government, and I think this is true from ST:ENT all the way to ST:PIC and I do maintain it IS a recognisably military institution under the overall command of the civilian Federation government, akin to a modern navy. And one of the things that makes the Dominion War so interesting is how the boundaries between the two do degrade, but then that's what happens in a time of war. Venom mentioned WWII, but just look at the Russo-Ukraine war. Both sides withhold information, particularly regarding casualties, there are clamp downs on personal freedoms compared to peacetime (To wildly varying extents between the two nations...) and the military does have a greater say over the polices and priorities of the civilian government.
But then the Federation is fighting an existential threat to its existence; it NEEDS the military to step up and make the decisions needed to, you know, keep existing...
On Section 31, I don't consider it to be a KGB-style secret police, but I absolutely think it's a Black Ops-style institution that is absolutely a resource for the Federation, think CIA to the US government in the 60's; it exists and there are people in power who can make use of it and its unique capabilities, but at the same time offering a level of plausible deniability to the Federation government. And honestly, I think that's great that it does exist in Trek, because it makes for a potentially interesting writing tool.
And while the Golden Era of Peace meant Section 31 had little to do but glare menacingly at the Romulan's across the Neutral Zone, during a time of war, a secret wing of your military that specialises in carry out extrajudicial operations at home and 'abroad' is going to be a very useful tool and I can absolutely see that kind of institution that has dubious morals but generally acting for the "Greater Good" of the Federation getting carried away, again there are historical examples of this.
I do think LR does create some videos to get a rise, he does seem to like his hot takes, but I don't think he does it maliciously, more in the same way you describe the media; poking around to see who he get a reaction out of. What he undeniably does is spark discussions. Sometimes very heated ones at that.
The Federation might not be necessarily evil, but sure it is pretty much hypocrite. Like Captain Sisko once said: The Federation is a Paradise, and it is easy to be a Saint in Paradise...
So to paraphase podcaster Dan Carlin, when he was describing the United States. The Federation acts like Superman during the day and like Batman at night.
Every state is a hypocrite if viewed by another state.
Thus is just such a more practical and genuine look at the federation. I actually find lore reloaded very interesting but he becomes more and more negative and social agenda driven every day.
That is a big reason why I stopped watching his stuff a few years ago. Very knowledgeable yes, but equally as negative. I want to believe in the Federation because it is an extension of ourselves and what we could be. If we are exactly the same as a species then it negates a lot of TOS and TNG. DS9 is my favorite because of no matter how dark things get, if you keep doing the best you can, things will ne okay
Lately trek has been pretty negative, so I guess Lore is being influenced by that
@@russellharrell2747 you're not wrong, Discovery season 1 was the embodiment of that inherent negativity.
Trek has gone a long way to regain its identity and I am really hoping Paramount doesn't fuck it up once again
He won't be told he's wrong... I ended up unsubscribing quite a while back.
Same here
Same
I mean if I ever was wrong.. I’d admit it.. :p
@@LoreReloaded wowzerz, celebrity interaction of the SSDD kind.
Oh well, Some Days Are Diamonds 💎
Screenshot ✅
Fwd ✅
It's official... You made it just in time 🤠😅
@@SnarkNSass I haven’t watched all the vid so I’m curious to see what’s said! Should be fun
This is a very detailed and solid rebuttal of lores claims. Well researched.
Thing people forget about Federation of 23'th century is that Federation was at war! After misunderstanding and series of small confrontations with Klingoins, on beginning of this century. Federation understand that they are vastly under-equipped for the war, with most ships based on purely civilian Bonaventure class and only few falling apart battleships of old. And Klingon having vast numbers and many rouge warlords, who could try glory like T'kuvma. This forced Starfleet into rapid militarization, with introduced in 2030's new militarized starships and it actually do make sense why military advisers would be everywhere. Or even S31 operating in the open. It was life and death scenario. But after Undiscovered Contry war ended and there was gradual demilitarisation, with Starfleet compensating to point that TNG starships were again vastly under-equipped for the upcoming threats.
BRAVO!!!!
Venom Geek Media, you just PIMP-Slapped LoreReloaded 10 ways to Sunday with that Video Essay.
I think DS9 showed of what the Federation would actually be like the best. People tend to forget Sisko basically virus bombed a planet. To the point even Worf was WTF'ing. So there are "grey actions" they are cleared at the very top. The council never punished him for it.
I always argue that Picard is the ideal that the Federation strives for but falls short of. Kirk gave guns to a preindustrial civilisation so the Federation could fight a proxy war with the Klingons. Jellicoe was chomping at the bit to have a go at the Cardassians, Solok was an outright racist, to name just a few flawed Star Fleet officers
@@tullyDTno Sir I have to respectfully disagree. I think Picard made both some great decisions, but, some glaring mistakes. I do like the fact that he admitted that he does make mistakes.
Caesar can do no wrong . Sisko using a bioagent on an inhabited planet is IMO a perfect example of a war crime but Starfleet ignores it ? Even IF the Marquis were the only ones on the planet ...... indiscriminate weapons of that nature are a no-no .
I feel like that detail didn’t get reported. The chemical bombing that is.
But yeah sisko made some really suspect actions, this wasn’t the first and wouldn’t be the last. But it was probably one of the biggest.
I wouldn't say he wasn't punished. He never got promoted again despite at some points basically acting as an admiral during the war. The only reason they probably didn't cashier him out of the fleet was the role he played in Bajoran politics and by extension their control over the wormhole.
I unsubbed from that channel ages ago, got tired of the clickbaity titles and whining about how mean people were online. Be careful to not get caught up in the drama.
Oh I almost forgot. In Lorereloaded's Federation, I wouldn't be allowed to open a chain of Catgirl Anime Maid Cafe's. 0/10 would not recommend
Well.. you can with holograms... so... okay?
Absolutely you would… I’d hope.. that sounds awesome
Great video thank you very much.
SO... I woke up and LM was live streaming, I got up and had breakfast and LM was live streaming, I watching this video and LM was live streaming, I finally got round to watching and LM was still live streaming. Bloody Hell!
In all seriousness it's important to remember the culture that LM is coming from. Culturally he's a conservative American and is applying the Zero Conditional conservative American mindset to every thing and everyone. If one is bad than all are bad because they statistically can be. Although his videos can be interpreted as "The Fox News of Star Trek" I think he doing it deliberately within the limitations of his cultural discourse. As as we all.
But like you said at the start it's all in good fun... and LM is STILL live streaming
IMO its just a "cup half empty" vs "cup half full" matter of taste ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Now, now, there's no difference between US and British media. Both are owned by the same Australian.
and they all suck and spread misinformation
😂 lol hilarious
And he owns the Conservative Party in all three countries.
Alright children. The joke was about one person controlling so much of the media period. It would be just as bad if he owned a multinational far left media empire or even centrist media empire. He's the grand nagus that never found his Ishka.
I honestly think it’s a blind spot he has purely because he’s an American: as a fellow countryman, it do be looking less and less likely we’ll reach utopia if our current situation is any indication.
I enjoy his channel and find it interesting how he points out bad scriptwriting that creates plot holes that are often just ignored by the fans.
He does have an eye for scriptwriting
As much as I love Star Trek, the shows do have plot holes big enough for a Klingon B-10 battleship to pass through.
I’ve gotta say…
As a follower of both channels…both Venom & LoreR…
I have always looked upon “Venom” as the “source”.
(The more accurate depiction of the world being discussed.)
Mike?
I’m glad …
No…
I’m Thankful, actually…that you do what you do, with the integrity that you do it.
As a child of TOS, this stuff can get…complicated. Ya know?
You sir, keep it all sourced and balanced. I’ve said in previous comments that I send Everyone that I know to your channel because it is the Best for interpreting all things “Trek”.
Thanks again for what, and how you do this.
I don't remember where but I think I read somewhere that Layton's Coup was described as "A Desparate Act of Patriotism."
That's what Layton claims when they arrest him... but isn't that what EVERY coup claims?
"Under the sea, or on the moon, that is maybe a different story".
That's actually an interesting idea. What if there were underwater cities, similar to what USOs supposedly come from? I mean, it's not like the Delta Flyer wasn't able to fly in under the sea in that one episode of Voyager, so perhaps Federation technology is so advanced, that as long as they are properly equipped, they can fly as easily in a fluid as in space.
But why do this?
Because it's cool, the view (when built in the right location, location, location) can be incredible, and because they can!
And the Moon? It's already theorized to be an artificial structure. So it's probably a good as place as any to settle (assuming that there aren't already inhabitants that object), especially if you have artificial gravity to supplement the Moon's microgravity!
I like the different points of view from both channels. Refreshing to have a debate without name calling and being respectful towards each other. Good job.
Wonder what a civilian show would be like, non-Starfleet?
Showing life in the Federation
Something i'd find interesting.
But probably rather dull, or not really seeming like Science Fiction. A Boston Bar, owned by a failed pareses square player, a Vulcan waitress who tends to do the books, an other telerite waitress who tells it like it is. Common customers is Morn, a federation corridor, and Captain Brackston comes in from time to time to demine the others into not living up to the federations ideals.
@@toddfraser3353I'd totally watch that, but the general masses wouldn't lol
It would depend on what people want to do.
You could laze around at home all day.
You could just as well study or train anything you like. And depending on how good/successful you are, you might get access to more resources. For example, thanks to the classic episode "Assignment: Earth" it is known that it is theoretically possible to use a transporter for distances of at least a thousand light years or more. Should you come up with a theory how to do that, but need a Federation Supercomputer to make the calculations, you would probably get access to one. Even as a self-studied civilian if specialists say that the only way to find out if the theory works is to make the calculations.
You want to make music? Make music. You want to create a holonovel? Go for it. You want to study other cultures? and so on.
I love both of you guys. I am also very proud of you guys for being able to have a back-and-forth without people getting pissed.
I find it interesting that most British people are okay with censuring whereas Americans would prefer to see both sides no matter how dumb or wrong. It's interesting difference in culture
but the Marquis were no longer Federation citizens. Starfleet had no jurisdiction at all over the space the colonies were in. they just went after them because they wanted to appease the Cardassians.
Economically intellectual property appears to be at play. With replicor technology or holographic art . I recall a voyager episode , a federation judge , hears a case involving the doctor and ownership of something he wrote. ( the argument was similar to the data episode),
On section 31 in the books post nemesis. Section 31 was made public after a scandal. ( the assassinated a federation president) after an investigation it was madr public the government took control and placed it under control of starfleet intelligence. ( 2385 ish ) and several admirals including admiral ross were prosecuted for their involvement ( a few other fleet admirals ) as well. But the agency continued as another brance of the intelligence/ security services. I believe their is slso s federation security service. ( the search for spock ),
I see starfleet as similar to the jedi o order in star wars. Therr are semi independent but answering to a democracy elected senate, they are peacekeepers, and have diplomatic dutys , when a new member is added they go through the jedi . Who represents the republic. Like starfleet. In wartime they become a military in peace time exploration. ( jedi did explore as well ) .
Rather well reasoned here! And even if the Federation does not have galactic transportation for the general public, merely ask your local Ferengi entrepreneur whom will negotiate for your firstborn.. Latinum and can take you anywhere!
I actually do believe that Federation has control over replicators. But that is for obvious reason preventing people from making nukes with them. Those things are dangerous! It would be illogical to give those to everyone. And we do see those being strategical commodity. But of course that mostly apply to use in the Federation space. Technology itself was widespread and many other civilizations have it. Even civilians did have access to those, but obviously with the proper security clearance.
To me all of the problems of the Federation comes from their desires to be Lawful Good but because of their extreme Pacific beliefs and their belief that all species are good. They constantly cross over into the lawful stupid area.
That TNG episode where that Federation ship went after those Cardassian's ships. Picard at the end told the Cardassians that he knew about the bio weapons. The Federation should had either delt with Cardassian, even if that means war or forcibly dragged all Federation citizens back to Federation space. They allowed the situation to get out of hand by doing noting even as the Cardassian government order the use of bio weapons on Federation citizens.
I don't believe for one second that the Federation violated Dominan space. As the they believed all spaces belong to them.
The Federation should have mine the worm hole way sooner then they did.
Also they should have fast track the Cardassian into the Federation after the Klingon invasion. Letting Cardassians space to go to hell, was just asking for something like them joining the Dominon.
One last thing, the wrong think allegations. That's come from Gene's beliefs in how humanity should act in the future and how technology advance the Federation is.
Gene wanted humanity to put all disagreements and politics behind them. Combined that with the Federation technology. They have no economics disagreements because of tech. Religions have all been wide away. So no religious or philosophic disagreements. They intergrate all aliens into the Federation so no immagration disagreements. Technology have no environmental problems, so no disagreements there. The Federation is OK will anything sexual, so no disagreements there.
Let's be honestly, all Federation citizens in the core worlds. Live in the perfect nanny state. Everyone of them have gone to Federation schools, training and education. All most all get jobs by the government. Get government housing and with technology everything they ever want.
The Federation government I think outsource everything ( almost everything) to Star Fleet because it's easy.
To be honest the Federation shouldn't be a democracy. What could the major of the Federation citizens disagree about for them to have a democracy. No the Federation should have been a technocracy.
whenever soemone tries to convince you the federation is fascist or authoritarian or dystopian or whatever, in the end it all comes down to this Ultimate question.
"did you even watch the show?"
Honestly the way he talks about the Federation from Star Trek seems more like the Federation from Gundam.
a few points from a reletive neophyte to the deeper lore
1. Starfleet might not be the sole provider of space travel but i wouldn't be surprised if at least within federation space its the largest single entity it and other sub state organizations (a starfleet merchant marine is likely a thing, as is a "vulkun transit service"). in addition Starfleet is likely within its space and probably to an extent beyond the guarantuer of safe travel though this becomes true of the other great powers.
2. you Mention Sec.31 the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order but i'm curious does the Klingon Empire also have an equivalent?
3. you're thoughts on Layton actually make me thing of him in a fonder light, he's always for me invoked the phrase Si Vis Pacem Parabellum or "if you wish for peace prepare for war" but beyond that he just sounds frightened of the dominion and is willing to disturb paradise to save it, a perfect example of the imperfect patriot i would say
I think the Klingons have an intelligence branch, but it was never named onscreen
Lore is very much a reactionary, and not all that hidden of one.
I don't get the complaint about periphery vs core worlds. "The core worlds are paradise and the peripheries struggle!" Like... yes? Obviously? The core worlds have centuries of infrastructure and geoshaping projects to ensure sufficient and even excess power, water, food and material goods. They have enormous populations and thus the manpower to respond to any issues quickly and decisively.
The colony world on the periphery made landfall two years ago and has maybe a hundred people. The infrastructure is still in the nascent stages of development, they haven't altered the planet's topography to suit them, and they barely have enough hands to keep one village functioning.
Now, you give that colony time to develop, they'll probably have solid infrastructure within a few decades thanks to modern tech, they'll start to shift some local topography, their population will grow. By the time a century passes the main settlement will have lots of people and a standard of living comparable to the core. Satellite communities are forming and going through the same growing pains, but with a much shorter supply line they'll develop faster. Another century passes and it's basically a core world across the entire planet in terms of amenities, infrastructure and quality of life.
It's just a matter of time and investment. The core worlds are the way they are because of *centuries* of hard work by their inhabitants. You can't just land a colony ship somewhere, snap your fingers, and expect Earth 2.0 to spring instantly into being. Replicator tech isn't nearly that advanced yet.
hahaha Lore doesn't like it when people disagrees with him. Several years ago when he first started, someone disagreed with him and his view on how a war would go between the borg and the federation. There were 2 other youtube channels that have unfortunately, either changed their theme or died. Expect a response from him lol
replicators are probably more important for the military than for civilians and were likely a military R&D project. This is because the biggest problem for any military organization is logistics and replicators solve many logistical problems.
3:24 In fact, we see that Jake is completely shocked that his story won't go out, implying that the press is so free within the Federation that the idea of a restricted press didn't even cross his mind, even during wartime.
I've found myself shaking my head in confusion at a few of LoreReloded Videso lately. Especially in his video about the Prometheus, at some point, I hardly understood what he actually wanted to convey. (This is of course not meant as a personal attack :D)
Generally, I really enjoy this video and some of your reasoning is quite convincing!
Only with regard to your argument concerning the existence of hierarchy in the Federation, I'd perhaps disagree: You implied that it would be fundamentally impossible to operate without hierarchy. That may be true for humans and from a human perspective, but there may be other species with different social structures where it works. An interplay of such different constructs in the Federation would be extremely interesting!
Besides, Federation F*ck ups like in "Insurrection" can definitely be an argument against the Federation or Pike's stunt in SNW Episode I. Would make for interesting counter-arguments as well ^^
On a more general note, the Federation does have notable problems, in particular, a long period of crises since Wolf 359, repeated clashes with AI, and it required the old guard in "Picard" to save the Federation, which itself was apparently not quite up to it. That somewhat reflects the grievances of our own current world, yet Star Trek in itself dealt with some of these interesting conflicts with a lack of its old optimism. Or not at all. Which was a shame.
I'm all the more delighted by your illumination here!
I watched a few minutes of Lore's 7 hour dominion war chronicles and decided that he didn't know what he was talking about and not worth my time.
What's funny is LR's stream whinging about your vid here is what brought me here. Watching your vid -Glad to see more people calling him out. He's gone long off the deep end last few years. Seems to me his own world view is badly poisoning his view on the fictional take of the Federation, Starfleet and the whole genre. IMHO he's a man that has not been doing well lately. Hopefully he finds his way out of his darkness; we all wind up there on occasion i suppose.
Judging the Federation based on post-Roddenberry shows, especially ones that seam to hate the ideals of ST, is its self a bit of bad faith.
I'm so glad that the two of you have met one another
A good case study on the competition for status on Earth and other core worlds is Julian Bashir’s father. He is explicitly described as going from scheme to scheme trying to find a way to prove he is capable of and doing important work.
You did an excellent job but the Federation is a republic, not a democracy. The difference between the two is important.
6:39 Eh, I mean, I think the argument can be made that they were driven to those actions by Federation neglect. I think the creation of the Maquis is one of those things that critics of the Federation are absolutely right about. After all, they just did the same thing the Bajorans did to defend themselves in their war with the Cardassians, again because the Federation refused to directly intervene (even though it wasn't, as the Federations claims, an internal matter), and while people certainly don't like what the Bajorans had to do, they don't argue their need to do those things to survive.
It really comes across like the Federation is against the Maquis's actions specifically because they are former Federation citizens using formerly Federation technology to do them. Even Sisko's issues with the Maquis seem to come down to him not liking that people he once trusted agreed with them.
After all, while the Federation claims that the Maquis were Federation citizens and therefor subject to Federation law, they weren't. The first Maquis were the colonists that the Federation abandoned, and every additional member left the Federation behind, a thing that, in a free society, people have the freedom to do.
Blood screenings were never stopped. Season 3 of Picard establishes that they're still required in Starfleet to the point that the transporters automatically flag changelings... if anything, that's even MORE insidious because it's just a background monitor
You have badges that tell your superiors where you are at all times, they’ll know that your on the toilet in a bathroom somewhere because the badge your wearing will tell the computer where you are at all times which doesn’t feel like freedom to me at all, ones life wouldn’t feel free with a badge that tells people where you are at all times being monitored all the time.
@@emperorofscelnar8443 Starfleet is a military organization. You give up a lot of freedoms when you join the military.
I doubt the ordinary Federation citizens wear Starfleet com badges, in fact I would argue there are laws against it. Impersonating a military officer and all that.
@@emperorofscelnar8443 Like describing either your personal or company issued mobile phone, until you tun them off or "accidently" level them somwhere.
@@Jasmin_Pepelkoa lot of people confuse Starfleet for the Federation. Federation citizens are free to do all sorts of stupid stuff like fly into the delta quadrant and seek first contact with the Borg.
@@russellharrell2747 That was my point.
Starfleet is a military organization like any other, with rules and regulations that significantly restrict your freedom.
Federation civilians on the other hand have wide range of freedoms just like civilians in real life.
You responding to me with my own argument is a bit confusing to me.
I agree that the potential for abuse was present, and I can think of at least three instances where said potential was actualised. It's also very true that the Admiralty in particular were persistently corrupt; the less said about Nechayev, the better. You learn to expect psychopathy at the top as a matter of course, however, and in any organisation, it's always the responsibility of the middle and upper middle people to maintain integrity.
Nechayeve was based... Change my mind ;)
I always found it strange that you dont see more civilian oversight in Starfleet and that there arent any news reporters around on Ds9 or the Enterprise interviwing the captain, sending stuff about new exploration to federation citizens etc. etc.
We also rarely see the political workings of the federation itself only maybe starfleet internal politics at the most.
The same reason you don't see more explicit discussion of economics. The moment you bring up stuff that people in the real world have strong opinions on their brains shut off. If it helps the Star Trek books do go into detail. One of the interesting points bought up is that in the Federation there are no political parties. Which is bold but makes sense for the ultra idealism of the future. Think how much of modern politics is dictated by political parties and the need for your side or at least not the other side to get in. Do away with political parties and there is no "Vote Andorian to keep Vulcan out" forcing people to vote for a candidate they hate with policies they despise so their party wins.
To be clear I and the writer of that book are not saying that's what politics should be in real life but that is what the writer chose to include in the final book of the A Time To series because they felt it was sufficiently idealistic for Star Trek.
I do think LoreReloaded wants an argument, not necessarily a fight though.
I enjoy different interpretations.. the ultimate goal of the channel
Lore only looks at star Fleet . The thing he forgets is Star Fleet isn’t the social Government. It’s the exploration and Military arms of the Federation only if war brakes out .
In more than one era, Section 31 IS operated under the arm of Starfleet Intelligence... in fact I don't think they've ever been disavowed by Starfleet Intelligence in ANY canon
the Raven is the perfect reason for Starfleet TO control civilian travel at least to a reasonable extent. they went borg hunting and made it clear they where not supposed to be doing that.
All the member worlds snd the federation have merchant fleets. And starfleet has a transport command. Federation civilian vessels ( often decommissioned starfleet vessels) are seen frequently, federation ships have passengers. It seems a credit system is used. Nog speaks of used up his transporter credits to visit new Orleans. , spacedock acts as a transport and cargo hud , border station, the a vast amount of its space is for cargo and civilian operations. And ufp . Civil service. Bureaucracy. ( slone 31 agent poses as a civil servant)
Also , in tos the federation has commissioners, like the European commission. She is bossing kitk about throughout the episode. . ( the one with zephram cocrane ) . Civilian oversight. Not to mention the federation council and the president, who the admiralty answers to directly. It appears thei is a joint commander in chief ( one starfleet the other democratically elected president) .
Uss raven is a federation science Council vessel. I believe. Again a civilian agency.
In several episodes where they show Earth the Federation does in fact fill the role of Police; which makes a lot of sense because well trained personnel know how to behave differently under different scenarios and this would save a lot of manpower.
The jurisdiction is actually considered somewhat more complicated than that. A lot of writers have likely been going off the old Franz Joseph manual that's been around forever, and notions derived from it, for where Starfleet can and can't act as law enforcement. (Usually where there isn't a full planetary government or when it's more directly starfleet stuff related, or if asked to help, etc.)
@@desperateneedofscotchhis videos on BSG are largely filled with bias towards its end and doesn't focus on the events of what the topic is about, and usually filled with negative commentary.
@@desperateneedofscotch I know. But I also pointed out his opinions of BSG were just as negative as most of his videos. Mostly for others that read the comment section.
@@desperateneedofscotch What about when the Police become both? ikr, just blew your mind! People seem to have better morals and values in the the Star Trek Universe, so it wouldn't be a problem.
Love both yours and Lore's content so this is great haha
Yea, that's one of the MANY reasons I blocked his channel. That guy goes counter-clockwise when he stirs the pot. he's not stupid he's not insightful, and frankly just doesn't add anything real or relevant to the conversation, it's like he watches the show at a surface level judges things in the most negative light and then constructs an argument to plant that seed of crap in someone else's brain.
that and Sisko committed war crimes every chance he got. it's like the writers were trying to see how evil they could make a captain and still have people say he was right. honestly that's about the extent of my dark take on ST and it's supported by cannon shows. Not wired together out of spite and out of context snippets of video
yeah i got fed up with Lore Reloaded as it feels more like watching Fox News rather than watching a lore video.
Hello VG.
I tend to agree with just about everything you've said in the video.
I would like to remark upon a few thoughts myself.
The Federation does not practice limitations upon civilian movement around space as a whole. If you can afford the resources, you can move anywhere you want, whenever you want, for a 'price'. Now this price might be 'credits', or it might be providing some sort of 'labor'. Which, can be 'pay as you go' type work aboard a ship headed in the direction you wish to proceed, or, perhaps some type of labor to be performed upon landing on the new world.
Replicators, and Transporters seem to be pretty common technology. Especially by the 24th century. There are actually two types of replicators (actually three)... Civilian, and Military. Civilian Replicators are in two sub-sets... General and Industrial. General replicators cannot produce much more than food, clothing, and simple items like glassware, simple plastic items, etc. Industrial replicators are 'tuned' to produce Civilian use machinery for various needs, like mass production of simple engines, power generation systems, and even simpler things like concrete blocks, bricks, and steel supporting structural members. Military replicators have almost no limits, so long as power is available, and materials are available. Military replicators CAN produce phasers of various types, as well as higher tech items like sensors, parts for a starship, including all the various parts needed to build a Warp Core.
Some Civilian Industrial replicators have 'licenses' to produce more 'military' items. These are closely watched and regulated, to prevent a civilian company from producing weapons for sale to other races, unless specifically allowed by contract to do so, and even then, not the 'latest and greatest' of weapons. This allows for Civilian companies to build starships for the Star Fleet, and lower their 'costs' to do so, and free up 'manpower' to man their ships, instead of needing vast numbers of 'support personnel' just to produce ships and other structures.
It should be noted, that the computer limits upon replicators can be bypassed. A 'Military' replicator could be 'hacked' to allow people without the correct passwords and codes to produce military equipment and weapons... but this, is a violation of standards, and law, and if caught, the persons doing so would pay the penalties for doing so. Most likely being imprisoned and forced to perform 'hard' labor.
The same is true for Transporters. Cargo transporters are not 'rated' for personnel use, although they can be used in that manner in an emergency. Personnel transporters are rarely used for mass cargo movement due to being 'fine-tuned' to transport living personnel safely from point to point.
I have not even gotten into the 'you need something to make something' issue with replicators. Contrary to popular myth, things just don't 'appear' using energy alone. The whole E=MC2 issue comes into play here. It would take MASSIVE amounts of power to produce a relatively tiny amount of mass, of any kind. But, if you have a supply of various molecules in storage, you can 'build' more complex molecules out of them, and thus produce your end product more efficiently. Even Military replicators need something to build their end products out of. Which is why starships have large storage areas for basic materials to be used by replicators, and thus only need the energy to shift molecules around to 'build' larger and more complex molecules, and place the results in the appropriate matrix locations. And, of course, the replicator 'patterns' to make the item(s).
Transporters do NOT render a person or item into basic energy and then rebuild that into mass. Instead, they break down the person, or item, into molecules, held in a force field as a high energy plasma, and the plasma is transmitted through subspace and reassembled. It is argued that the plasma has a sort of 'memory' for the shape it was in before being rendered, since even this would push computer technologies way beyond 'faintly believable' to pure fantasy.
Also, being 'old', I remember that Transporters were originally canonized as being developed from an alien ship's garbage disposal system. The aliens just moved the garbage outside their ship, and left it free floating in space. So, the hardest part about early transporter tech was 'targeting' the plasma stream to a very precise destination.
A lot of people equate replicators with modern 'printers'... like those used to make plastic figures and other items from a spool of plastic 'wire'. As you can see above, the actual method is more similar to Transporters, than modern 'printer' technology.
When you can scan an item down to its individual molecules, and know their placements to an exact degree, you no longer need 'printer' technology, since you have control of the 'mass' almost down to the Atomic scale.
Just a few thoughts.
Remember, section 31 use to be in the original charter. Then they got outest.
Couldn't have been TOO official. It was an arm of Starfleet Intelligence in Enterprise era AND in future era Discovery...
If the enemy has a tricorder, why would the media not be allowed to tell me what they see? Just a thought experiment
Thank you, I was there as well. Lore Reloaded has some anger problems.
How do you think the Maqui would’ve faired if a rogue borg cube joined their cause? I’m writing a piece for that scenario and I was wondering if you had anything to say about the matter.
Won a battle or two before being wiped out; ends up being a Bismarck of sorts, where they have a singular ship of importance and nothing similar to help it/carry on if one is lost. Therefore, a lot of force would be brought down on the cube to eliminate the threat, before the Maquis is hunted as before.
I feel there is this predisposition to make the federation feel fascist, and or communist, so that modern politics can say look it can work in an idealistic way.
Misunderstanding that the key thing about the federation is its lack of tyranny.
replication technology was first seen in an ENT episode timeline wise -- though it appears to be a universal technology that all the different races in startrek eventually discover or gain from another race -- in most cases it appears only a hand full of races actually developed the technology while the rest stole it via conflict or theft/espionage and then later put their own spin on it.
highly like examples being the Klingons/Ferengi/Romulans etc.
While I agree with your point of view overall, I'd argue you're off on a few points. You mentioned Layton wanted to go back to the 23rd century Starfleet. But back then, Starfleet was not a strictly military organization. " Are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet? Well, I'm sure scientific and exploration programs would remain unaffected." This aspect of Starfleet is, and always has been, part of Starfleet's identity. As such, it was also at the forefront of technological development. Both for obvious ones, like Warp drive, but also replicators. When taking the cannonnical addition of food resequencers on Enterprise, we can discern it was ret-coned as a precursor to the food replicator. The same could be said for the universal translator, with the linguacode translation matrix invented by Hoshi Sato. Another point of contention from Lore's thesis is to assign the label of strick military to Starfleet. While in times of war, this is their primary role, I would argue that, as a hole and for its entire existence it was more akin to Canada's Northwest Mounted Police, who cumulated the roles of policing the western frontier, surveilling it's border with the US, assisting in exploration and scientific research, and in times of need, protecting the citizenry. I'd say this description fits Starfleet as well.
At 14:00 you are correct on replicators, and there's proof in the Star Trek Enterprise episode where they go to the automated repair station, season 2 episode 4, and find food replicators on the station. What's notable is T'Pol remarks that she had "seen a similar device on a Tarkalean vessel," from which you can infer other races had them before the Federation was even formed and even Vulcans didn't have them first. All the Federation did once they learned of them was to figure out how to get them installed on a massive scale without blowing their power grid because you can't have 1000 million people replicating dinner at the same time without some work on that.
I imagine British engineers would like with that power spike as they have experience with dealing with the post soap opera tea making power use spike.
That last bit was everything I believe about the federation, thank you for putting it beautifully
Who else would love to see a Battle space episode based on the Conflict between the Cardassians and Talarians?