I was in the Oakland Temple Pageant in 2005 and there is a “final battle” scene between the Lamanites and the Nephites. We were asked to take our shirts off and those that were darker or more tan were Lamanites (I happened to be pretty tan that summer). We Lamanites wore loin cloths while the Nephites wore robes and I think some armor. When I served my Spanish speaking mission a couple years later I was taught in the MTC that I was teaching the Lamanites their history and bringing them back to the gospel. It was absolutely understood that cursed skin meant actual skin my entire life…
My husband’s shelf broke while reading family scriptures. He read about the skin of blackness, but this time it hit different. He looked over at our black adopted daughter and said, “this is bullshit.”
I really enjoy these episodes and how you all collaborate and then contribute to the live show. The lighthearted banter is appreciated for such a heavy topic, all while the stark reality and subject points are brought out, emphasized and collectively processed. John I think you do good to get under the, yeh so, of how or why things hurt or hit hard. (Opposite of gaslighting is so refreshing! ❤)
I’m Black. Had an old white Mormon woman first stare at me for a while, then walk up to me and ask “are you okay” to which I apprehensively replied yes and then she said, “I’ll pray for you and your skin, in Jesus’s name” while touching her cheek with a lovingly sad smile before walking away. Thanks Mormonism, very cool.
you give no details, sounds very fishy, why would someone ask you if you were okay, and then say they would pray for you and your skin, did you have a skin disease or what?
I’m Native American from South Carolina and the LDS left their mark on our tribes here. One tribe, the Catawba, converted en masse and I think it contributed to a lot of cultural loss.
@@monyetgoblog7038I would even call it an embargo on the truth. They actively tell you not to listen to people who are critical, they don't believe so why should you listen to them? What they don't tell you is many are believers, and the church has lied and it was the critics who brought it to light. If you're in a group that does that, you should not associate with it
These episodes are so important and I really appreciate the time you all are taking to help me deconstruct the racism I was taught from the time I was in nursery.
I will never forget when I was a young man and my grandpa told me he was the only white guy in a all black choir back in the day. I asked why there was an all black choir and he shrugged it off like it wasn't a big deal. Later on in my teens I remembered him telling me that and it led me down a rabbit hole to the truth if the church. Crazy history to have to try to spin as a member
In other words, apologists like Jasmine can believe all they want that the mark of the curse was something other than skin pigmentation, but they still have to contend with the false beliefs of past Church leaders.
I think the harm in a 2024 reader thinking it's paint or tattoos or something like that is that it removes accountability. Leaders clearly taught wrong things that caused untold suffering to countless people and now members are still being told to trust the leaders.
So true my wife and I got tattoos to cover her C-section scar. Me my 10 inch scar on my back caused by the Mormon cult volunteers at LDS family services.
I was a convert in 1974 as a young teen. Lots of members always made remarks about how cool that we were lamanites. This narrative continued way into the 80s and 90s. Hartmann Rector Jr told us that our opening missionary statement should be “would you like to read a history book of the Americas?” I was always bothered by this whole Lamanite thing since we all know they were the “bad guys” in the BOM.
(I'm ashamed to say this)..I grew up in Provo in the 1970's. There were about 4 Navajo kids from Arizona living in my ward, with white families. I dated one of the Navajo boys the first year of being in high school together. They hated being separated from their families, they hated being treated differently, and NONE became "white or less dark". Such BS. Several of the Navajo girls at my high school said they were planning to get pregnant over the summer back on the reservation to avoid coming back to Provo and the placement program. Years later, living in Arizona, my husband worked on the Navajo reservation, many of his coworkers talked about the high pressure to join the church while in Provo, and most had left the church once they returned to Arizona. It was a hurtful program, telling these students they were cursed. I still wonder where the Navajo friends I made then in high school have ended up..
I think you're right, Nemo about the curse of Cain being different from the Lamanite curse. A family member mentioned that and why she is uncomfortable at church still .This family member was married briefly to a black man and had a daughter and definitely felt like a second class member .
people who are black already feel that in some parts of society, there's so many women in the Salt Lake valley who are white married to black men which started about 30 years ago, so it is likely her own feelings of being less than to begin with. We now have a man from Africa who is married to a white woman. It was just a matter of time when people wouldn't be so sheltered that they thought it was weird.
I think John's realization at around the 1:11:00 mark is spot on- I also want to push back on some comments that were made earlier (sorry, can't find the time stamp) that seemed to imply that segregation didn't happen to indigenous peoples in the US, and that they "chose" to live on reservations... This is not accurate, and it's a really harmful message to put out there! The exact ways that indigenous peoples were treated historically in the US vary significantly by region, state, point in history, etc.- but extermination and erasure are repeated themes. I'm not American, and I don't believe that US recognizes responsibility for genocide against indigenous peoples (I could be wrong about that), but that is certainly what happened. I think sometimes there can be a temptation to weigh different forms of oppression against each other (who have Mormons been more racist towards? Black people? Native Americans?) but this is unhelpful, and I think really misses the point. I think it's so great that Mormon Stories has the Second-Class Saints series with Matthew Harris, it would be really interesting to see as deep a reckoning with the Mormon story in connection with Indigenous peoples.
Brigham Young's instructions to buy young Native American people and to intermarry with Native American people to remove the curse of their colour reminds me of the Stolen Generations in Australia, which was a series of government policies and practices to remove the children of Aboriginal people who had any white ancestry from their families and communities and forcefully assimilate them to white colonial culture. People outside of Australia may be familiar with this history if they've seen the film Rabbit Proof Fence. The motivation for these policies and practices was racist and genocidal, the idea being it would help with what white people believed was an inevitable process of Aboriginal peoples and cultures dying out. Needless to say Aboriginal peoples and their cultures survived, and it should be noted that (despite what many racists or simply uninformed Australians still assume) someone's Aboriginality has nothing to do with the tone of their skin.
I am in Australia I totally agree. The only thing positive not even positive really atleastthey didn't claim God told them. The European back then have much to answer.
Spencer W. Kimball, 1960 General Conference: “The work is unfolding, and blinded eyes begin to see, and scattered people begin to gather. I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness are falling from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.” “The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl - sixteen - sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents - on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated. “
So little boys are becoming more delightsome to him than grown Native women - I agree with John that is a lil creepy... Given the theology y'all are working with, I can kinda see using the color chart (no matter how tone deaf that is), but the "delightsome" adds a whole other dimension that I kinda didn't want to see. I thought Kimball was Lyndon Johnson-like for y'all re: civil rights, and now I'm a lil sick...
For me as a Mexican Laminita 85% of my patrical blessings is Null given the fact that DAN science disproves the Origen of Native Americans. I used to be considered a principal or direct descendant of the family that came from Jerusalem and an heir of all the blessings given to Isaac and Jacob and Abraham. Now I am just among….
dna does not disprove....it is inconclusive, and it's a very complicated thing. If you want proof with dna, you won't find it, and to understand why, you have to google that, it's Not been disproven, it is simply inconclusive. A person's color is not who they are, it's their countenance. We all know people who are white and people of color who have an ugly countenance, and we also know the opposite. We are related, the Lord gave us different races that we are in, so to read into the BOM that someone was given a dark skin, it was more than having a dark skin, in the first place, others stayed away from those people because those people were taught things contrary to the commandments. So you have to decide, is the book what it says it is, or is from the mind of J. Smith. And then you have to brave when you realize that it's so sophisticated that no one could have written it, then nor now. IT is stunningly sophisticated. And I have read of bible scholars who upon reading it would say to others, where did this book come from, because to begin with, they know that everything is tied up together and that the teachings are of Christ. And that there is more clarity in showing who God the Father is, Christ and the Holy Spirit, which is not clear in the bible. When you come to this site, you are dealing with a man who has made it his life's work to convince anyone who is lacking in their testimony, so that they will be able to walk away as he did. People like him who leave the LDS church, can't leave it alone. It's not easy to be a member. I read the book over 50 years ago and it took me 3 pairs of missionaries before I had the fortitude to be baptized, I knew I had to change friends, and my lifestyle and I wasn't certain I could be happy, but I put myself away for about a year and read scriptures every day after work, and I went to youth get togethers and I found friends, and it changed my life. Had I not found these eternal truths when I did in my early life, I don't know where I would be.
You don’t have to convince me I have prayed to my Heavenly Father and he has answered my prayers. I know that the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and that Heavenly Father loves all of his children. I know Jesus Christ lives. However,I find very offensive to see that we the Lamanites are described as Lazy and ignorant. I see every single day all of these Mexicans working so hard. Savages by definition and as to how colonizers viewed them it’s not a Christ like behavior.
Joseph Smith believed in slippery treasure. Which was connected to his family believing in folk magic, drawing pentagrams on the ground. Yet somehow the Book of Mormon contains verses about buried treasure becoming slippery. So is the Book of Mormon a folk magic 🪄 book? Hmm 🤔
The Book of Mormon is not sophisticated. The stories of Lehi’s children and also the Jaredites both have the same plot, Secret Combinations. Not a whole lot of sophisticated writing.
obviously you've never talked to any, just read a couple accounts of people who had problems, I know plenty of females who loved their family and went on to do very well at universities.
I’m from Mexico and it makes me mad and sad at the same time to remember that at some point I felt proud to be a Lamanite. I’m not proud of my culture and heritage but for the right reasons not because of the church’s BS.
Those Mormon paintings are so cringe. You can tell they're painting modern mixed European typical white Mormons that have been prevalent in Mormon art for our whole lives
John, thank you for your rant on the church's failures to take accountability for their disgusting teachings. Native Americans deserve an apology for ever having been told that "we (the church) know your history better than you do." Oh, and "the reason you have dark(er) skin is because your ancestors sinned." The silence is total cowardice on the part of church leaders. Shame on them.
Thank you for this episode. John is there anything we can do to create something like this for Spanish speakers? Please know that I'm willing to help. A lot of church resources (specially history) are only in english. I'm from Costa Rica and like Gerardo I related a lot with the narrative of me being a descendant of the lamanites.
The whole narrative of this discussion, focuses on the historical and problematic teachings of the leadership which interpreted the BOM to suit the thinking of their time. Valid questions can be raised about their claim to inspiration and how they could read the Book of Mormon and not realize that the white Nephites where the “damned” to be wiped of the face of the earth for their constant prideful superiority and the dark lamanites where the ones favoured by God to remain on the continent. If you read the BOM and fail to come to that conclusion then you are just as guilty of interpreting it through the lens of white superiority.
Random - I am curious if there is enough to make a show about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Are they paid? How does one become a part of it? When did it start? Do they use it to draw people into the church? (I get goosebumps listening to them, but I don't think that it's a sign from spirit during it)
The Latin word for bog is 'lama', which makes Lamanites a funny word. To put it simply, 'the bog folk' of America. Or 'mud people', as the word also acquired that meaning in Spanish and Portuguese. In English, the suffix -ites is Latin and was taken from Greek in biblical words like 'Levites'. The original meaning is 'those who belong to', which is why it would be used to refer to individuals from a specific place, such as a Levite belonging to the tribe of Levi.
Black comes from the word blaec meaning pale, wan, sullen or fair so this misnomer has been used to describe copper coloured brown people like myself when the original use of the word according to etymology described the people called white today. The religious lies must stop.@@ohjonash
gente de barro is mud people. My Peruvian wife laughs at you. Barro is mud your just another appologist for the Mormon cult but nice try I give you 1 out of 10 stars for the effort and lie.
Do you think it's an appropriate consideration to differentiate between the Native Americans and those of Black African descent in regard to the "pre-mortal life." Namely those of African black decent were "fence sitters" where as native Americans were NOT fence sitters. According to the book "Jesus the Christ" written by James E. Talmage he writes of the blacks that they "at least refrained from active opposition and thus accomplished their first estate. " Therefore, to inter marry with Native Americans one is still intermarrying valiant spirits whereas to marry an African American is to marry not just one of a dark skin cursed by Cain but one who is literally derelict from the very foundation of the premortal life. I do not believe anything that I have written rather I am giving the historical position of the church regarding this particular topic.
I really enjoy these episodes. Racism in the church is one of the first reasons for my questioning the truth claims. I realized that the church and the profits were wrong on this issue. However, I want to clarify something in this episode. You cannot compare the racism towards one group over another especially in regards to First Nations (Native Americans) and black people. In the Mormon church there are some major differences but historically in the USA there is no way to compare which group was hated more. First, remember the historical context of when the the BoM was written. There was a desire to justify the genocide of Native Americans that was rampant in Joe's time. The trope of the time was that NAs were descendants of Hebrews and had fallen away from the 'true' god and deserved to be conquered. White nationalism was alive and well during the 1800s. Black people were seen as having value as a slave whereas Natives were seen as savages and were to be destroyed. It was a full-on genocide. Submit to God or be destroyed. In California in the 1800s there were bounties for the scalps of Natives and the full head was worth more. Gerardo, you mentioned that there were no separate schools for Natives; however, this is not true. Native people were removed from homes and placed in Indian Boarding Schools up into the 1960s. The Mormon Church participated in similar programs. Native people were forced off of lands and placed into reservations that are infertile and barren. Both Natives and Black people have been treated like savages and given no value or place in the USA. It is sad but trying to compare the two is disrepectful. Within in the church theology one appears to be more favored over the other but both were treated poorly throughout history and in reality, they are less than and unworthy in the doctrine.
0:00 If God had wantes to curse entire people would some reference be found in the OT? Maybe in the Book we find the story of Cain... a little unknown text call... GENESIS. (Sarcasm font in use)
I’ve had English food and sorry Nemo, but John is right…it’s gruel. I’ve been told that it tastes just like prison food here in the US. “Gruel omelettes…gruel sandwiches…nothing but gruel.” -Prison Mike
OMG. I joined the church a year ago. I'm African American. I didn't know the history. The people are super kind. I made a commitment to stay a year. But the racist language in the BOM, I could not get past. Nor was I content with being gaslit and told it didn't mean my actual skin color. Finally, I bought Matthew Harris' book Second Class Saints. GAME CHANGER. I realized Brigham Young was a wicked man. Mission Ward leader tried to convince me it was god that made Brigham Young put the ban for the priesthood on the blacks. I left the church. If they're going to keep that language in the book and still teach we are inferior and from an inferior lineage, I don't want any part of it.
So according to Jasmine, the blackness of skin was more of a fashion statement….and all the LDS art depictions of Lamanites must be wrong too. Thats it….shes got a seer stone
They tried to escape natives but couldn’t. The natives were on their native land. They would run away, their tribes would rescue them, and they would kill themelsepves
It’s interesting as well that the church kept the name “Palestine” in the introduction. Now that Palestine is being erased from the map along with her people. It will be interesting to see if that changes in the future 🤷🏻♂️
The insanity of this conversation is that there is any need for it at all (original comment put in early in the podcast - now I see in the wrap up John made the exact same point). The message that needs to be shared with these apologists is that if you have to lie to defend your truth, what you’re defending is not true. The entire Mormon apologetic mindset is beyond incomprehensible. For example, I like Ellen DeGeneres, and I would like for the ugly allegations against her to be untrue. But I don’t need them to be. Just like with Mormonism, what is true is what actually happened - what was done and what was said - whether I, or anyone else, likes it or not. This is why I lost my testimony reading FAIRMORMON many years ago. Lies don’t support truth, they just make falsehood that much more evident and abhorrent.
Native Americans have been oppressed differently that Black Americans. I wouldn't be comfortable saying one group's treatment was better or worse than the other's. Native Americans in the United States and Canada were often forced to go to residential schools. I know very little about these schools, but what I do know is that they were terrible. The goal of the schools was to “kill the Indian, save the man.” The abuse and trauma experienced there was horrific. So many student died that the schools had graveyards. Schools shouldn't have graveyards. Some were still operating in the 1960s. The National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition could be a place to start looking. I'm trying to provide the best information I can. If someone knows better, please correct me. I'm not sure if Mormons participated in running these boarding schools (I haven't heard them mentioned specifically). The thinking behind Mormon doctrine and the philosophy these schools (sanctioned or run by the United State's and Canadian governments) resemble each other.
Note it was always better to intermarry with native Americans than black Americans in the USA. That’s why a significant portion of southern white families claim they had an ancestor who was a Cherokee princess, but do DNA tests and find they have a couple percent of sub-sharan African DNA. Plus the Native Americans were supposed to be a blessed lineage from the house of Israel. Mormon racism always was especially focused on those of African descent.
Interracial marriage, calling Indiginious woman a squaw is disgusting, if he only (Brigham Young) really knew what it really means. He wouldn't use the word.
Can anything be more insulting than people from Europe coming to the Americas and upon finding these Native Americans decide to tell them their history and ancestery? How is it they know the ancestery of these Native Americans more than the indians themselves? This need to define and box people into neat groups tthat fit your narrative and mindset is very obnoxious.
Be careful: is Rezende really refering to the english Nortamerican colonies? Colonization of Latin America is way different. Keep that in mind. From what I know there were boarding schools for native Americans in the US ("kill the indian and save the man") in the xxth-C. Was it the same in the 19th C?
My great uncle Drew. A lot of those pictures that I have it in his diary. He would sit by the cult to go down and prove that it was true The book of Mormon but they could not from my understanding
unfortunately not, he's kinda cute don't you think😄 I believe he's happly married but not happy with the church and its ever-changing policies/doctrines and outright lying and deceiving church members
I am from Torrance, California, which has the longest, largest and oldest Arm Forces day parade in the country. Southern California is the center of the military industrial complex, regarding blackness places like Torrance, California Huntington Beach, and other places Los Alamitos, where there is a base also Long Beach, which has a long history of Naval base, anyhow, all the way up into the 80s if you were African-American had a purple heart honorably discharge whatever you could not buy a house in places like Cerritos or Torrance with your G.I. loan , fact! History of Mormons and California quite interesting, they’re more laid-back, but in the 90s got more conservative. my best friends were Long Beach and they hung out with the gay people because Long Beach is a gay town and we’re totally chill, way different than Las Vegas or Utah Colorado Idaho.
Don’t watch it then . I’m highly interested in the cross section between race and religion and so are many others . If you deem it as overkill simply watch something else 🩵
I was in the Oakland Temple Pageant in 2005 and there is a “final battle” scene between the Lamanites and the Nephites. We were asked to take our shirts off and those that were darker or more tan were Lamanites (I happened to be pretty tan that summer). We Lamanites wore loin cloths while the Nephites wore robes and I think some armor. When I served my Spanish speaking mission a couple years later I was taught in the MTC that I was teaching the Lamanites their history and bringing them back to the gospel. It was absolutely understood that cursed skin meant actual skin my entire life…
My husband’s shelf broke while reading family scriptures. He read about the skin of blackness, but this time it hit different. He looked over at our black adopted daughter and said, “this is bullshit.”
So did Yall leave the church?
@@enishalihoward8119yes, we are out.
Behold - When Mormons learn to cuss and swear appropriately!! 😅
Native American were only dark skinned because of sun exposure , this is so stupid!
@@pebblebrookbooks4852 What's wrong with not swearing though?😕
I really enjoy these episodes and how you all collaborate and then contribute to the live show. The lighthearted banter is appreciated for such a heavy topic, all while the stark reality and subject points are brought out, emphasized and collectively processed. John I think you do good to get under the, yeh so, of how or why things hurt or hit hard. (Opposite of gaslighting is so refreshing! ❤)
I’m Black. Had an old white Mormon woman first stare at me for a while, then walk up to me and ask “are you okay” to which I apprehensively replied yes and then she said, “I’ll pray for you and your skin, in Jesus’s name” while touching her cheek with a lovingly sad smile before walking away. Thanks Mormonism, very cool.
The audacity of these people is boundless.
That's disgusting. I'm sorry.
you give no details, sounds very fishy, why would someone ask you if you were okay, and then say they would pray for you and your skin, did you have a skin disease or what?
That is so icky.
I’m Native American from South Carolina and the LDS left their mark on our tribes here. One tribe, the Catawba, converted en masse and I think it contributed to a lot of cultural loss.
I’m sorry. My ancestors converted in the 1840’s in the same region.
Mormonism has spent going on 2 centuries erasing indigenous heritage.
I appreciate all the time and work that goes into this. Thank you so much for creating this content!
Imagine being a young person of color and hearing all of this anti-blackness. It was deeply painful to have to internalize all of this
My grandson is on a mission to Zimbabwe and I want to ask him about that..
@@CantPrayMeAway savage of a cult to do that while claiming a monopoly on the truth
@@monyetgoblog7038I would even call it an embargo on the truth. They actively tell you not to listen to people who are critical, they don't believe so why should you listen to them?
What they don't tell you is many are believers, and the church has lied and it was the critics who brought it to light. If you're in a group that does that, you should not associate with it
These episodes are so important and I really appreciate the time you all are taking to help me deconstruct the racism I was taught from the time I was in nursery.
Thank you Mormon Stories for all that you all do.
I will never forget when I was a young man and my grandpa told me he was the only white guy in a all black choir back in the day. I asked why there was an all black choir and he shrugged it off like it wasn't a big deal. Later on in my teens I remembered him telling me that and it led me down a rabbit hole to the truth if the church. Crazy history to have to try to spin as a member
In other words, apologists like Jasmine can believe all they want that the mark of the curse was something other than skin pigmentation, but they still have to contend with the false beliefs of past Church leaders.
I think the harm in a 2024 reader thinking it's paint or tattoos or something like that is that it removes accountability. Leaders clearly taught wrong things that caused untold suffering to countless people and now members are still being told to trust the leaders.
So true my wife and I got tattoos to cover her C-section scar. Me my 10 inch scar on my back caused by the Mormon cult volunteers at LDS family services.
@@richharkness5942 you got a scar from family services?
I was a convert in 1974 as a young teen. Lots of members always made remarks about how cool that we were lamanites. This narrative continued way into the 80s and 90s. Hartmann Rector Jr told us that our opening missionary statement should be “would you like to read a history book of the Americas?” I was always bothered by this whole Lamanite thing since we all know they were the “bad guys” in the BOM.
John was on fine form in this podcast! Thanks for heaping scorn on the "white and delightsome" narrative, John!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I had a friend that told me her parents wouldn’t let me marry her brother because I wasn’t white.
(I'm ashamed to say this)..I grew up in Provo in the 1970's. There were about 4 Navajo kids from Arizona living in my ward, with white families. I dated one of the Navajo boys the first year of being in high school together. They hated being separated from their families, they hated being treated differently, and NONE became "white or less dark". Such BS. Several of the Navajo girls at my high school said they were planning to get pregnant over the summer back on the reservation to avoid coming back to Provo and the placement program. Years later, living in Arizona, my husband worked on the Navajo reservation, many of his coworkers talked about the high pressure to join the church while in Provo, and most had left the church once they returned to Arizona. It was a hurtful program, telling these students they were cursed. I still wonder where the Navajo friends I made then in high school have ended up..
I think you're right, Nemo about the curse of Cain being different from the Lamanite curse. A family member mentioned that and why she is uncomfortable at church still .This family member was married briefly to a black man and had a daughter and definitely felt like a second class member .
people who are black already feel that in some parts of society, there's so many women in the Salt Lake valley who are white married to black men which started about 30 years ago, so it is likely her own feelings of being less than to begin with. We now have a man from Africa who is married to a white woman. It was just a matter of time when people wouldn't be so sheltered that they thought it was weird.
I think John's realization at around the 1:11:00 mark is spot on- I also want to push back on some comments that were made earlier (sorry, can't find the time stamp) that seemed to imply that segregation didn't happen to indigenous peoples in the US, and that they "chose" to live on reservations... This is not accurate, and it's a really harmful message to put out there!
The exact ways that indigenous peoples were treated historically in the US vary significantly by region, state, point in history, etc.- but extermination and erasure are repeated themes. I'm not American, and I don't believe that US recognizes responsibility for genocide against indigenous peoples (I could be wrong about that), but that is certainly what happened.
I think sometimes there can be a temptation to weigh different forms of oppression against each other (who have Mormons been more racist towards? Black people? Native Americans?) but this is unhelpful, and I think really misses the point. I think it's so great that Mormon Stories has the Second-Class Saints series with Matthew Harris, it would be really interesting to see as deep a reckoning with the Mormon story in connection with Indigenous peoples.
I had to google it. You are right. We are honestly taught wrong in our schools about how Native Americans were treated.
Brigham Young's instructions to buy young Native American people and to intermarry with Native American people to remove the curse of their colour reminds me of the Stolen Generations in Australia, which was a series of government policies and practices to remove the children of Aboriginal people who had any white ancestry from their families and communities and forcefully assimilate them to white colonial culture. People outside of Australia may be familiar with this history if they've seen the film Rabbit Proof Fence.
The motivation for these policies and practices was racist and genocidal, the idea being it would help with what white people believed was an inevitable process of Aboriginal peoples and cultures dying out. Needless to say Aboriginal peoples and their cultures survived, and it should be noted that (despite what many racists or simply uninformed Australians still assume) someone's Aboriginality has nothing to do with the tone of their skin.
I am in Australia I totally agree. The only thing positive not even positive really atleastthey didn't claim God told them.
The European back then have much to answer.
My mum is from Australia, she mentioned the same program there.
I thought the same thing
and where do I find this info on Brigham Young's words
@donnavaughn9409 it's called Google, available on most mobile phones and computers.
Spencer W. Kimball, 1960 General Conference:
“The work is unfolding, and blinded eyes begin to see, and scattered people begin to gather. I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness are falling from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.”
“The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl - sixteen - sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents - on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated. “
So little boys are becoming more delightsome to him than grown Native women - I agree with John that is a lil creepy...
Given the theology y'all are working with, I can kinda see using the color chart (no matter how tone deaf that is), but the "delightsome" adds a whole other dimension that I kinda didn't want to see. I thought Kimball was Lyndon Johnson-like for y'all re: civil rights, and now I'm a lil sick...
Wow! What BY taught abt interratial marriage is exactely how the "purity of blood" of spanish colonization of the Americas worked.
And Portugal in Brasil and Africa
have you been there recently because over 30 years ago, people were marrying of both races who went to school there
For me as a Mexican Laminita 85% of my patrical blessings is Null given the fact that DAN science disproves the Origen of Native Americans. I used to be considered a principal or direct descendant of the family that came from Jerusalem and an heir of all the blessings given to Isaac and Jacob and Abraham. Now I am just among….
dna does not disprove....it is inconclusive, and it's a very complicated thing. If you want proof with dna, you won't find it, and to understand why, you have to google that, it's Not been disproven, it is simply inconclusive. A person's color is not who they are, it's their countenance. We all know people who are white and people of color who have an ugly countenance, and we also know the opposite. We are related, the Lord gave us different races that we are in, so to read into the BOM that someone was given a dark skin, it was more than having a dark skin, in the first place, others stayed away from those people because those people were taught things contrary to the commandments. So you have to decide, is the book what it says it is, or is from the mind of J. Smith. And then you have to brave when you realize that it's so sophisticated that no one could have written it, then nor now. IT is stunningly sophisticated. And I have read of bible scholars who upon reading it would say to others, where did this book come from, because to begin with, they know that everything is tied up together and that the teachings are of Christ. And that there is more clarity in showing who God the Father is, Christ and the Holy Spirit, which is not clear in the bible. When you come to this site, you are dealing with a man who has made it his life's work to convince anyone who is lacking in their testimony, so that they will be able to walk away as he did. People like him who leave the LDS church, can't leave it alone. It's not easy to be a member. I read the book over 50 years ago and it took me 3 pairs of missionaries before I had the fortitude to be baptized, I knew I had to change friends, and my lifestyle and I wasn't certain I could be happy, but I put myself away for about a year and read scriptures every day after work, and I went to youth get togethers and I found friends, and it changed my life. Had I not found these eternal truths when I did in my early life, I don't know where I would be.
well said! as a fellow "lamanite" I approve this message.
You don’t have to convince me
I have prayed to my Heavenly Father and he has answered my prayers. I know that the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and that Heavenly Father loves all of his children. I know Jesus Christ lives.
However,I find very offensive to see that we the Lamanites are described as Lazy and ignorant. I see every single day all of these Mexicans working so hard.
Savages by definition and as to how colonizers viewed them it’s not a Christ like behavior.
Joseph Smith believed in slippery treasure. Which was connected to his family believing in folk magic, drawing pentagrams on the ground. Yet somehow the Book of Mormon contains verses about buried treasure becoming slippery. So is the Book of Mormon a folk magic 🪄 book? Hmm 🤔
The Book of Mormon is not sophisticated. The stories of Lehi’s children and also the Jaredites both have the same plot, Secret Combinations. Not a whole lot of sophisticated writing.
Love when you have Julia on ❤
Look into the Boarding Schools Native Americans were forced to attend. There was definite segregation.
obviously you've never talked to any, just read a couple accounts of people who had problems, I know plenty of females who loved their family and went on to do very well at universities.
Julia’s the best!!!
Ahoy ! LDS Discussions Series ! I'm just catching up today .
Thank You ❤
You're welcome 😊
I’m from Mexico and it makes me mad and sad at the same time to remember that at some point I felt proud to be a Lamanite. I’m not proud of my culture and heritage but for the right reasons not because of the church’s BS.
How does God curse someone with a tattoo? How does God curse someone with an animal skin? Ridiculous argument.
Fascinating show.
Those Mormon paintings are so cringe. You can tell they're painting modern mixed European typical white Mormons that have been prevalent in Mormon art for our whole lives
So cringe! In the last one the Nephites appear to be wearing Roman armor with the tufted helmets and Gladiator sandals. Hello anachronism!
John, thank you for your rant on the church's failures to take accountability for their disgusting teachings. Native Americans deserve an apology for ever having been told that "we (the church) know your history better than you do." Oh, and "the reason you have dark(er) skin is because your ancestors sinned." The silence is total cowardice on the part of church leaders. Shame on them.
Also- my brother in law was called to the phoenix mission. He was out in the reservations. That was in 2000.
There absolutely have been schools for natives: residential schools.
Thank you for this episode. John is there anything we can do to create something like this for Spanish speakers? Please know that I'm willing to help. A lot of church resources (specially history) are only in english. I'm from Costa Rica and like Gerardo I related a lot with the narrative of me being a descendant of the lamanites.
The whole narrative of this discussion, focuses on the historical and problematic teachings of the leadership which interpreted the BOM to suit the thinking of their time. Valid questions can be raised about their claim to inspiration and how they could read the Book of Mormon and not realize that the white Nephites where the “damned” to be wiped of the face of the earth for their constant prideful superiority and the dark lamanites where the ones favoured by God to remain on the continent. If you read the BOM and fail to come to that conclusion then you are just as guilty of interpreting it through the lens of white superiority.
I never though about that interpretation although it makes sense.... the white church leaders would never agree with you BTW
I must’ve been more favorable than my brothers and my mother then. I avoided the sun though.
Random - I am curious if there is enough to make a show about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Are they paid? How does one become a part of it? When did it start? Do they use it to draw people into the church? (I get goosebumps listening to them, but I don't think that it's a sign from spirit during it)
The faboulus four… extra: GO NEMO
The Latin word for bog is 'lama', which makes Lamanites a funny word. To put it simply, 'the bog folk' of America. Or 'mud people', as the word also acquired that meaning in Spanish and Portuguese. In English, the suffix -ites is Latin and was taken from Greek in biblical words like 'Levites'. The original meaning is 'those who belong to', which is why it would be used to refer to individuals from a specific place, such as a Levite belonging to the tribe of Levi.
Super interesting etymological breakdown, thank you!
Black comes from the word blaec meaning pale, wan, sullen or fair so this misnomer has been used to describe copper coloured brown people like myself when the original use of the word according to etymology described the people called white today. The religious lies must stop.@@ohjonash
gente de barro is mud people. My Peruvian wife laughs at you. Barro is mud your just another appologist for the Mormon cult but nice try I give you 1 out of 10 stars for the effort and lie.
Lutum is the latin word for mud such an indoctranated sheep and appologist for the Mormon cult
Not correct go back and take Latin you failed the course obviously
Do you think it's an appropriate consideration to differentiate between the Native Americans and those of Black African descent in regard to the "pre-mortal life." Namely those of African black decent were "fence sitters" where as native Americans were NOT fence sitters. According to the book "Jesus the Christ" written by James E. Talmage he writes of the blacks that they "at least refrained from active opposition and thus accomplished their first estate. " Therefore, to inter marry with Native Americans one is still intermarrying valiant spirits whereas to marry an African American is to marry not just one of a dark skin cursed by Cain but one who is literally derelict from the very foundation of the premortal life. I do not believe anything that I have written rather I am giving the historical position of the church regarding this particular topic.
I really enjoy these episodes. Racism in the church is one of the first reasons for my questioning the truth claims. I realized that the church and the profits were wrong on this issue. However, I want to clarify something in this episode. You cannot compare the racism towards one group over another especially in regards to First Nations (Native Americans) and black people. In the Mormon church there are some major differences but historically in the USA there is no way to compare which group was hated more. First, remember the historical context of when the the BoM was written. There was a desire to justify the genocide of Native Americans that was rampant in Joe's time. The trope of the time was that NAs were descendants of Hebrews and had fallen away from the 'true' god and deserved to be conquered. White nationalism was alive and well during the 1800s. Black people were seen as having value as a slave whereas Natives were seen as savages and were to be destroyed. It was a full-on genocide. Submit to God or be destroyed. In California in the 1800s there were bounties for the scalps of Natives and the full head was worth more. Gerardo, you mentioned that there were no separate schools for Natives; however, this is not true. Native people were removed from homes and placed in Indian Boarding Schools up into the 1960s. The Mormon Church participated in similar programs. Native people were forced off of lands and placed into reservations that are infertile and barren. Both Natives and Black people have been treated like savages and given no value or place in the USA. It is sad but trying to compare the two is disrepectful. Within in the church theology one appears to be more favored over the other but both were treated poorly throughout history and in reality, they are less than and unworthy in the doctrine.
Excellent all of you
And Nemo is my star
0:00 If God had wantes to curse entire people would some reference be found in the OT? Maybe in the Book we find the story of Cain... a little unknown text call... GENESIS. (Sarcasm font in use)
LDS discussions and no Mike 🥹😭❤️🩹
John where can I find the other episodes on the skin of blackness?
John’s comment at 31:19 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I’ve had English food and sorry Nemo, but John is right…it’s gruel. I’ve been told that it tastes just like prison food here in the US.
“Gruel omelettes…gruel sandwiches…nothing but gruel.”
-Prison Mike
OMG. I joined the church a year ago. I'm African American. I didn't know the history. The people are super kind. I made a commitment to stay a year. But the racist language in the BOM, I could not get past. Nor was I content with being gaslit and told it didn't mean my actual skin color. Finally, I bought Matthew Harris' book Second Class Saints. GAME CHANGER. I realized Brigham Young was a wicked man. Mission Ward leader tried to convince me it was god that made Brigham Young put the ban for the priesthood on the blacks. I left the church. If they're going to keep that language in the book and still teach we are inferior and from an inferior lineage, I don't want any part of it.
So according to Jasmine, the blackness of skin was more of a fashion statement….and all the LDS art depictions of Lamanites must be wrong too. Thats it….shes got a seer stone
24:47 there has always been segregation for NA/AI peoples and, really, there still is. Residential schools, hello?
Has anyone pointed out that Hagoth, supposed ancestor of “Lamanite” Polynesians, was one of the “white and delightsome” Nephites?
They tried to escape natives but couldn’t. The natives were on their native land. They would run away, their tribes would rescue them, and they would kill themelsepves
Please do cover ispp
It’s interesting as well that the church kept the name “Palestine” in the introduction. Now that Palestine is being erased from the map along with her people. It will be interesting to see if that changes in the future 🤷🏻♂️
I felt less than growing up. :(
Same. I hated my skin color because of this doctrine
The insanity of this conversation is that there is any need for it at all (original comment put in early in the podcast - now I see in the wrap up John made the exact same point). The message that needs to be shared with these apologists is that if you have to lie to defend your truth, what you’re defending is not true.
The entire Mormon apologetic mindset is beyond incomprehensible.
For example, I like Ellen DeGeneres, and I would like for the ugly allegations against her to be untrue. But I don’t need them to be. Just like with Mormonism, what is true is what actually happened - what was done and what was said - whether I, or anyone else, likes it or not.
This is why I lost my testimony reading FAIRMORMON many years ago. Lies don’t support truth, they just make falsehood that much more evident and abhorrent.
The fallen soldier in the middle of the picture looks exactly like John Dehlin 😮
Native Americans have been oppressed differently that Black Americans. I wouldn't be comfortable saying one group's treatment was better or worse than the other's. Native Americans in the United States and Canada were often forced to go to residential schools. I know very little about these schools, but what I do know is that they were terrible. The goal of the schools was to “kill the Indian, save the man.” The abuse and trauma experienced there was horrific. So many student died that the schools had graveyards. Schools shouldn't have graveyards. Some were still operating in the 1960s. The National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition could be a place to start looking. I'm trying to provide the best information I can. If someone knows better, please correct me. I'm not sure if Mormons participated in running these boarding schools (I haven't heard them mentioned specifically). The thinking behind Mormon doctrine and the philosophy these schools (sanctioned or run by the United State's and Canadian governments) resemble each other.
As an American myself I say that it’s bold of an American to tell a Brit that their chocolate is waxy
Note it was always better to intermarry with native Americans than black Americans in the USA. That’s why a significant portion of southern white families claim they had an ancestor who was a Cherokee princess, but do DNA tests and find they have a couple percent of sub-sharan African DNA.
Plus the Native Americans were supposed to be a blessed lineage from the house of Israel.
Mormon racism always was especially focused on those of African descent.
Gerados episode is one of my favorites!
The first colonial settlers in North America passed laws punishing gay sex with the death penalty. In 1636, the Plymouth Colony wrote a simple list of
Does crayola know about this color scale? 😅
Interracial marriage, calling Indiginious woman a squaw is disgusting, if he only (Brigham Young) really knew what it really means. He wouldn't use the word.
@57 minutes. ...the parents are older. That's it. People brown up over a lifetime. What a goof.
That clip of the Navajo general authority is so cringeworthy and horrific.
Can anything be more insulting than people from Europe coming to the Americas and upon finding these Native Americans decide to tell them their history and ancestery? How is it they know the ancestery of these Native Americans more than the indians themselves? This need to define and box people into neat groups tthat fit your narrative and mindset is very obnoxious.
And, of course, the word "delightsome" is from the King James Bible....
I absolutely hate Scripture Plus. So much bullshit. Please John have me on to tell my story of my indoctrination in the Benemerito (CEBA) Mexico City.
@alanschannel1495 - Please email me at mormonstories@gmail.com
Be careful: is Rezende really refering to the english Nortamerican colonies? Colonization of Latin America is way different. Keep that in mind.
From what I know there were boarding schools for native Americans in the US ("kill the indian and save the man") in the xxth-C. Was it the same in the 19th C?
Yes
Follow the $$$. It’s always about money and power.
What would Elizabeth Warren be called? 🤣🤣
Ugo Perego
White Jesus hates me😢
Jesus wasn’t white, he was born in Jerusalem. I think God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost loves us all.
Pretty sure the sun is every color 😂 Jesus is just another sun god
@terrytrammell7388 no he doesn't. He gave Europeans permission to enslave and subjugate indigenous people around the world.
@@stikupartist3698 start your own cult. You can make your Jesus (sun god) Big Ray and whatever color you would like
@monyetgoblog7038 too much work.
🌚🖤🐒🦍😊
My great uncle Drew. A lot of those pictures that I have it in his diary. He would sit by the cult to go down and prove that it was true The book of Mormon but they could not from my understanding
Why is it here. This i# a hate speach.
Is Nemo Gay? Or am I thinking of another streamer
unfortunately not, he's kinda cute don't you think😄 I believe he's happly married but not happy with the church and its ever-changing policies/doctrines and outright lying and deceiving church members
John stop shouting.
I am from Torrance, California, which has the longest, largest and oldest Arm Forces day parade in the country. Southern California is the center of the military industrial complex, regarding blackness places like Torrance, California Huntington Beach, and other places Los Alamitos, where there is a base also Long Beach, which has a long history of Naval base, anyhow, all the way up into the 80s if you were African-American had a purple heart honorably discharge whatever you could not buy a house in places like Cerritos or Torrance with your G.I. loan , fact! History of Mormons and California quite interesting, they’re more laid-back, but in the 90s got more conservative. my best friends were Long Beach and they hung out with the gay people because Long Beach is a gay town and we’re totally chill, way different than Las Vegas or Utah Colorado Idaho.
This is overkill. Way too many Mormon Stories episodes on race and racism.
Your mom
Then don’t watch it? Personally I’m very interested.
Don’t watch it then . I’m highly interested in the cross section between race and religion and so are many others . If you deem it as overkill simply watch something else 🩵
It is the story .
It’s a series. Skip the episode when you see the title. It’s a large issue to unpack.