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Ep147: New Theory on Book of Mormon Origin May Be A Game Changer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 เม.ย. 2024
- On this highly anticipated episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon are joined by Lars Nielsen to discuss his ground breaking new book, "How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass: The Second Greatest Show on Earth."
Lars, along with his brother David Nielsen, was responsible for exposing Ensign Peak's vast horde of tithing money that was not being used for charitable purposes. In his new book, Lars explores brand new narratives that provide never before considered explanations for the origin of the Book of Mormon.
I encourage you to check out Lars' website prior to watching the episode. I especially encourage you to read the abstract which can be found under the tab, "Back Cover."
Links to Info:
www.howthebook...
Book website: www.HowTheBookOfMormonCameToPass.com
Amazon: www.amazon.com...
Email: Lars@HowTheBookOfMormonCameToPass.com
Facebook: HowItCameToPass
TH-cam: / @howitcametopass
This new information is exploding on the scene as we speak and Mormonish can't wait to present many of the details to you in this mind-blowing episode.
The book is available for purchase in most formats and on Amazon.
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FYI - David O McKay did NOT trust BYU with his personal papers so he donated them to the University of Utah Special Collections. McKay was following the footsteps of his famous niece, Fawn Brody, whose papers are in the same collection.
Be sure to highlight the supposedly documented proof that David O. McKay did not trust BYU with his personal papers. Wow, are you seriously so narrow minded?
Some comments including Lars responses are disappearing. Mormonish does not moderate comments so this appears to be TH-cam issue. We apologize for the inconvenience.
@landon. Oh! Thank you for
explanation. Tho't you wanted me to shut up and go away. 😻.
It's happening a lot in last 3 weeks on 2-3 ex-mo pods.
I'm not saying it's aliens.....
@@randyjordan5521 somebody had to not say it...
👽 who this guy? Couldn’t be! look how friendly he looks!
@@randyjordan5521 That would only apply to Scientology, wouldn't it?
The morning of Sunday, March 3, 2024 Mormonish has 4,994 subscribers and John Dehlin invites THRIVE St George attendees to subscribe and seconds later, 5K is reached. A little over 6 weeks later Mormonish reaches the 6K subscribers level. Awesome and deserved, Rebecca and Landon!! 😍😍
I’ve spent many years studying Western Esotericism, and the work of Kircher sounds lock step with the theological world view and writings of prominent 17th & 18th French Esotericists. Many of which became foundational documents for the Masons and Rosicrucians. I don’t personally have the resources to do this, but I’d love to dive down the rabbit hole of how Kircher overlapped with these other historical figures. The time, place, and specificity of subject makes it highly likely they were part of the same intellectual circles.
Researching if/how Kircher had a connection or influence on early Masonry might provide an even richer layer to the “Mormon Story.” Especially considering Joseph Smith’s relationship with Masonry and 19th century Esoteric practices and beliefs.
I hope the book strikes the right balance of exposing people to these themes (Hermeticism, Kabbalah, Royal Arch Masonry, etc.) without being a distraction to the mainline story. Like you, I am fascinating with how Kircher's views on these topics might have gotten in the minds of the candidate authors of The Book of Mormon. You've rad Cheryl Bruno, right?
@@HowItCameToPass No I haven’t, but if you provide a recommendation I will.
I left the church some 20 years back, but my parents are still extremely devout. I’m their only daughter. While they have a hard time understanding me, I have to commend the work they’ve done in accepting and loving their gay, childless daughter.
I know these podcasts and “news bites” aren’t things they’re being exposed to as two temple workers in CT. But, I want to do my part to understand them better too. Part of that involves learning how the church has evolved over the last 20 years and following current events.
My studies in esotericism come from sources independent from Mormonism, as I began my studies some 5 years after leaving the church.
Recently, I’ve become more interested in the religious/esoteric environment Joesph Smith grew up in and how living in such a wildly unique time/place shaped him. The overlap between the burnt over district and seance craze of the mid 1800’s in the northeast is criminally understudied and under taught.
With that being said, I thought the trigger warning on your book cover was an extremely thoughtful and compassionate way to approach the topic. I know your book is something I’d never recommend to my parents. They’re old and happy, and being correct isn’t the same as doing the right thing. Academics aren’t always humble, but hubris isn’t compatible with the scientific method either, so…
I’m just super impressed with the groundwork you’ve laid. And I’m looking forward to seeing where the path leads as you have the time and resources to wander further into the weeds.
One area I’d love to see more scholarly research into is what early Mormonism drew from Hermetic Kabbalah. It’s such a vast and intense area of study, I imagine you’d have to partner with academics outside of Mormonism to put those puzzle pieces together. Over the last 5 years or so, there’s been a growing network of credentialed academics on TH-cam with podcasts discussing both esotericism and 2nd temple Judaism/the historical Jesus. I suppose you could say my interest here is an extension of following that.
Anyhow, the proposals you’ve put forth are fantastic and I look forward to following your work. ☺️
Great comment. Im right there with you!
agree totally...and to bring it to modernity, rosicrucians and freemasons who are also Christian have bolstered their faith for many years because of knowing the universality of the experience of "Christian Mystics" . There is an admission that Christ did not teach in a vacuum of only Judaism or at least the writings about Christ did not. There also is a tradition that the legend and lore surrounding sacred works is not historical and academic but instead is encoded spiritual information couched in metaphor and allegory....and even explained as such. This became taboo Post Constantine to say out loud and especially during protestant reformation of which "Mormonism" sprang. There is equally important tradition in Judaism today with the Zohar and its lore. So Mormonism appears to carry that type of tradition and flop it straight into protestantism.
@@peterhook2258 I’ve long said that while Mormons theirselves would never say this, the denomination is very much a mystic/esoteric branch of Christianity.
One of my favorite (and historically very possible) theories about Paul is he was a practitioner of Merkavah Mysticism. (I might have spelled that very wrong…lol.) And his visitation of the risen Christ came to him during a ritualized, ecstatic mystic state.
It’s a purely speculative theory at this point. But due to time, place, accessibility, and his level of education it’s extremely plausible possibility. And would definitely explain his radical “rebirth” experience, taking on Paul as his new name and shifting his entire life’s purpose to evangelizing Jesus’s words.
I’d love to see some kind of evidence to back up the speculation one day, because it’s such a cool way to think about how Christianity evolved.
Landon, you’re so quick and bring humor and fun into all the podcasts.Another great listen
Any idea how the magick of John Dee and Smith parchments are also connected to the Kirshner?
@davewilson4094 Great question! Kircher was a staunch believer in magic. I quote Manly P. Hall in the book, reference Giambattista della Porto, and quote from Oedipus Aegyptiacus when Kircher talks about carrying out magic rituals in religious rites.
Long been fascinated with the Dee-J-Smith connection! Studied Dee collection in the British Museum.
@@HowItCameToPass Oohh…now you’ve got me excited. I’ve got a copy of Manly P Hall’s “The secret teachings of all ages” on my bookshelf. I’ve also wondered how much Joseph Smith was inspired by John Dee.
Very cool@@gwilymjones3476
This is interesting research and scholarship. I grew up learning the saints moved to Ohio, but don't remember being given the reason why other than some sort of persecution in New York. Interestingly, I had no reason to question this. I came to understand that Kirtland is where Joseph met Sidney Rigdon and converted the congregation, or so was told in church. This research sheds new light on these relationships and maybe even the reason for the move to Kirtland.
@Sis.ReneGade I do address this issue directly. It will be hard for many to understand, but Rigdon did not join Smith's church. Smith joined Rigdon's church, setting up his own branch of Rigdon's church. It was a merger, but it was not a merger of equals. Thirteen years later, Rigdon did not apostatize from Smith's church. Smith gradually apostatized from Rigdon's church. In other words, your thoughts are serving you well! I hope this little bit helps.
@@HowItCameToPass An August 31, 1831 newspaper article pegged Sidney Rigdon as the "brains" behind Mormonism, and that he and Smith colluded to put Joseph out front as the "ignorant farmboy" whom God had selected to restore the true gospel to the earth:
"It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of
Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of
turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better
chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of the [their] associates
and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was
given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith -- that a set of golden
plates
on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was
deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first
intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth.
They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the bible,
to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so
easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. Hints were given out that
young Joe Smith was the chosen one of God to reveal this new mystery to the
world; and Joe from being an idle young fellow, lounging about the villages,
jumped up into a very grave parsonlike man, who felt he had on his shoulders
the salvation of the world, besides a respectable looking sort of a blackcoat.
Old Joe, the ex-preacher, and several others, were the believers of the new
faith, which they admitted was an improvement in christianity, foretold word
for word in the bible. They treated their own invention with the utmost
religious respect. By the special interposition of God, the golden plates, on
which was engraved the Book of Mormon, and other works, had been buried for
ages in the hill by a wandering tribe of the children of Israel, who had found
their way to western New York, before the birth of christianity itself. Joe
Smith is discovered to be the second Messiah who was to reveal this word to
the
world and to reform it anew.
@@HowItCameToPass and to
Mormonish/
and Mr. Nielsen:
Great info. But, if it WAS Rigdon's "church", EVEN
IF js nicked
it and made a monster after
"HIS OWN IMAGE", can this
event not be appropriated by "the extant leaders" so as to
HANG ON TO THE "CHURCH" as it is now being reconfig-
ured with all the
"DISQUALIFYING"
acts, nature, and history of js
painted over, then just
"carry on" and "move forward" pretending js never existed nor the CULTURE that is
the very earth beneath- and
within- which
ITS STRUCTURAL
FOUNDATION IS
INEXTRICABLY
CONJOINED?
Because the corporation
with ITS ASSETS
and ITS POWER simply MUST NOT BE LOST!
@@HowItCameToPasswow...makes sense of a "wonder" ive been trying to figure out for years! Haha. Like, "I wonder why..." Fascinating way to look at it
I love your kindness for believers. I am not one, but you are so kind to issue a warning. Bravo!
@Lauriebellexec Thank you for saying that. To be honest, I learned that the hard way. I wasn't very sensitive and aware when I had my faith crisis in 2009 and 2010. I went through my anger phase, denial phase, etc. I still feel hurt by active Mormons sometimes, but it doesn't evoke such a strong reaction anymore. I don't know whether any of my children will stay in the church after they are emancipated. But I choose them over any religious system.
Me too , they know what they believe for sure! My worries are about people who don’t know Mormonism. ( I was raised LDS, now I’m free from they’re chains!)
As for the dancing for a decapitation story in the BoM, I'm not saying that it did or did not come into the Bom by way of Rigdon. I'll have to delve into the subject matter more in order to form an opinion on that. But it's easily explainable without Rigdon. It's just a rip-off of the New Testament dancing-for-a-decapitation story. The identification of the dancers even rhymes: Daughter of Herod meet Daughter of Jared. Who can get a decapitation faster with their enticing dancing? I can't remember if a platter was involved in both stories. But the main ideas are in both. I guess what would have been on the platter was a bit different. Daughter of Herod got the head of a guy who dissed her mother and otherwise enjoyed pushing people underwater down at the river. Daughter of Jared won the prize of having her grandpa beheaded in order to make it possible for her dad to get a career promotion. (Dancing for a Decapitation is also a new dance contest TV show that will begin broadcasting this fall with 10 times more excitement and drama than Dancing with the Stars.)
WOW! This is so interesting and informative. Thank you for all you do on our behalf❤
@goonfarb6969 You are quite welcome. We are all in this together. More than we sometimes think!
@@HowItCameToPass Great work, thank you. Just bought the ebook. Blessings!
I love the BoM but its obvious to me now its a 19th century work. So... I Just ordered the book, looking forward to reading it.
@@althe111
It was translated into 18th century language. It's a record of ancient American history.
Rebecca. You look wonderful.
Fascinating video. I can't wait to read the book. I've studied the LDS faith for over 40 years and this book definitely takes an interesting new angle.
He did a great job of establishing the Kircher/Monmor parallels and John Smith connection. The question for me is whether Spaulding/Rigdon really is the answer to those things ending up in the Book of Mormon. He made very matter-of-fact statements about Rigdon being associated with Joseph Smith and Parley P. Pratt prior to 1830. This is something scholars like Vogel have pushed back on, so it will be interesting in his book to see if he can support it.
@user-jl3zb9ej6d Thank you for the compliment. I'm doing my best. I think you'll like Chapters 12, 13, and 19 then (especially chapter 13). I am grateful to Dan for his work; great stuff.
I'm eager to read your book, and especially look forward to all those source references. I'll just beg ahead of time that you continue to add more footnotes and sources... those of us who studied history want to know all the little details of what came from where. I look forward to seeing what you've got! It sounds great.
the connection is hermeticism, kabbalah and its relationship to early Christianity and Kircher was gifted enough, to document the connections for all to see. This info was known a long time ago but it made mainstream uncomfortable, especially before all the influence on pre Constantine Christianity was well known. It is now. Its a huge topic and I'm glad he is writing about it.
Ordered 2 books and I am so excited for this information. Mentally out of Mormonism since 2005 and resigned after that with my husband and my daughter's family.
I left the church and came back. Researching stuff like this is why I came back. If you are looking, God will show you the way when you're ready.
I wish y'all the best.
What do you mean that stuff like this brought you back?
Used to be in Lars's ward. Ordered the book & love the dedication. I was with Susan that day ... miss her! 😢
One of the best podcasts I have watched for a long time. I bought the Kindle version of the book while I was watching, and can't wait to get into it. Thank you for making this one and sharing your research!
always had many doubts about the origin of the Book of Mormon, there are things in which any person with reasonable intelligence and the ability to realize what the true intention of the author was, and necessarily move to the times and circumstances, beliefs, prejudices from that time.
It is clear that the author or authors used all the necessary arguments in their narrative with the purpose of removing the people of that time from all their religious traditions that delayed mental, spiritual and social development in those times, also the intention is to remove people from the clutches of oppressive religions and governments.
I recommend reading the book called "A NEW AMERICAN SCRIPTURE"
This book made a lot of sense to me. Regarding the authors, I leave it to the will of the people.
One thing is clear to me is that the LDS Corporation took over the copyright of the Book of Mormon and attributing to this they have made many changes after the first edition that Joseph Smith printed.
So kind and understanding. My son served a mission in Boston in mid 1990s. He served the last half working in office in Belmont----If he were alive- I would ask him if he knew you and David. He said many ward members were students at various universities there. He sadly identified as gay- (thats not what was sad), but I asked him and he said he went on a mission because he hoped it would go away (gay). He passed away---I wont say more here- but I applaud your kindness and humility about this. Its too bad its not reciprocated from the TBM side.
I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. I hope you can find peace.
47 minutes in and I still don't know what the author's thesis is. This is one big teaser trailer for his book, which he hawks non-stop during the show. I followed his suggestion and visited his website for more information. There is scant information, but more than enough ads for how to buy his book. I can tell that there are some interesting factoids worth pursuing in Nielsen's theory, but it is a major slog to get through his disparate trivia details and weave them together for myself to make sense of what his theory actually is. As best I've been able to put together, the author believes that someone took multiple sources, including works from a 17th century German Jesuit named Athanasius Kircher, and compiled them into what became the Book of Mormon.
Agreed. Just use ChatGPT for about 5 minutes and it debunks any of these logical leaps.
Fascinating stuff! I just ordered the book - can’t wait to read!
I’ve just ordered the book
This is a remarkable interview and compelling new evidence. I am now deep in Lars' book and frantically devouring and contemplating the content. Thank you Lars for spending so much time to the intensive research and book. Thank you Rebecca and Landon for bringing this fascinating conversation to the public.
Hey Lars, I just bought your book on Kindle,excited to read it. Like you, I am fairly well educated but not in history nor archaeology. However, I did do a podcast on The Backyard Professor, episode 125: a comparison of Roman and "Lehite" civilization, both supposedly contemporaneous. I will read your book critically, as I hope you might my podcast. Any way, my friend, thanks for what I have learned her tonight.
If nothing else, Lars has made a great resource through his website to check his work and make studying all the more accessible. I hope this becomes a new standard for writings like this.
Had my name removed 15+ years ago. This book is icing on the cake. I ordered the book via Amazon.
😅😅😅😅😅😅 😅😅😅
By the way, Lars, Hermosillo, Sonora, was my mission headquarters from February 1961 to August 1963, the old West Mexican mission.
I served as Branch President in Santa Ana and Imuris. I was also in Hermosillo, Nacozari, and some other small villages. We've got to get this information to them!
Wonderful disclaimer Lars! lol
R & L you always come up with "Mind Blowing" topics! Great episode.
Big Hugs!
1823...1823...1823....1823!!! We know Joseph STARTED to tell his Story about angelic visitor then. Just after "View of the Hebrews" was published and DISTRIBUTED!! .
That lie has been throughly debunked. That book has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon
@@donaldjones9830 LOL. I just read it. START on Page 80. It is impressive. Gee, I wonder where Joseph could ever had gotten the idea????
@@donaldjones9830 Elder B.H. Roberts found 18 similarities between Hebrews and BoM
@@krismurphy7711 Nonsense. The Book of Mormon started off in Jerusalem and they ended up in the US. The Book of Mormon was written in reformed Egyptian. The Book of Mormon has nothing to do with that book you mentioned. It has been through,y debunked. Sorry.
@@krismurphy7711 You’ve never read the Book of Mormon and then prayed about it as Moroni 10: 3-5 says.
Anti Mormon sentiment is just that. Propaganda.
ETHAN SMITH..."VIEW OF THE HEBREWS"...1823!!!!
😂😂
Joseph Smith never plagiarized view of the Hebrews.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii You were there? Did it provide inspiration or ideas for him?
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii You need to read it. Halfway through its startling content
I just bought it. Well see!
@hardwork8395 Thank you! Glad to see you are also a "hard worker." I'm excited to learn what you think about some of the conclusions!
Wow! Fascinating! Now I want to learn more about the authors’ connections with the roots of Masonry/occult movements/studies on Islam or Middle Eastern cultures of the day. There is much overlap of Islamic/Mid-East beliefs and practices with traditional LDS beliefs. Since the authors studied Middle East languages ie. Mid-East culture this makes so much sense now.(eg. plural marriages , levels in heaven, marriage in the afterlife, female child marriages, extreme male patriarchy, and likely more?)
Great interview, I am waiting for the book. I have never bought into the idea that Joseph Smith wrote the BoM independently. There is a lot of evidence that would suggest that he was "influenced" by his local and familial ties to the Masons, such as John Smith. Also would consider looking at the assassination of Joseph and maybe consider why he was yelling out masonic phrases as he was being killed. Also, consider the 'restructuring' of the church when the US Army showed up outside Salt Lake as Brother Brigham was trying to make his own sovereign nation. And just look at the SLC Temple, it's a Masonic Temple. This association with the Masons is still very active today, there are plenty of pictures of prophets shaking hands with politicians such as Dick Cheney or George W. with a Masonic handshake that we all are taught in the temple. There is enough stuff there to write another book, or two, or three.. Looking forward to reading your book!
There are certainly connections, subtle references and not so subtle references woven into the history of Mormonism from day one. Just a couple examples from Mormon "scripture". I think anyone paying attention and reasonably aware can instantly recognize what Joseph Smith was thinking of when he called Cain "Master Mahan" (In both the Pearl of Great Price and in Joseph Smith's revisions to the Bible.) It's a simple matter of substituting the "s" with an "h" and not being an exact speller. The reference to "Master Mahan" includes referring to such person as a "master" of a "great secret". Reference is also made to an oath with a penalty ("swear" "by thy throat") that was a type of penalty and oath used in Mormon temples prior to 1990. Similarly, it's not hard to figure out where the name "Mahonri" comes from. Another simple swapping of "s" for "h" makes it clear. Tip of the iceberg type stuff. Brigham Young used to proudly wear his Mahonic (lol) pin in portrait photos. Church publications later on decided to airbrush out the pin. Seems like they didn't want the connections to be so obvious. Also one of Joseph Smith's plural wives (acknowledges as such by the Church) was Lucinda Morgan...widow of the anti-Mahon whistleblower, William Morgan.
Where do you find this imfo? Genuinely curious
@@jordanott5464 It's just been years of looking into this stuff. What really got me going down this rabbit hole was when they fired the BYU professor that discovered thermite from the 9-11 dust in NYC. Thermite is a residual from demolition explosions.
"and maybe consider why he was yelling out masonic phrases as he was being killed." - He may have hoped there would be some fellow masons among the attackers who would intervene and protect him. Under the circumstances, it was worth a try.
Just bought the book! Such an interesting podcast!
Glad the format and content resonated with you. Rebecca and Landon do such a great job. I ended sharing more than I had anticipated, and I am glad that I did!
@@HowItCameToPassGreat job? At lying about the Church, yes.
@@donaldjones9830 If there are factual errors, please provide constructive criticism using the Feedback form. Remember to be specific. Thank you.
@@HowItCameToPass If you are not a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and know the Book of Mormon is true, there is no way I’m going to fill out a form providing constructive criticism.
The people who criticize the Church and Book of Mormon are generally apostates of the Church. All they do is lie.
@@HowItCameToPass Also, why focus on the theories about the Book of Mormon. It is not necessary or moral.
One can pray about it as it advocates, without either members or apostates or non members promoting false doctrine or slander or speculation.
Have a good day. You are just another channel not to trust.
RMNelson was made President in Jan 2018, in August of the same year he rescinded "Mormon"ism.
Is there a connection between the 2017 BYU emails mentioned in this podcast about John Smith's and writting a manuscript that he gave to Salomon Spaulding and wanting to can that narrative and Nelson trashing "Mormon" because Jesuit Priest Monmor, and "Mormon the Parasite...", and Kircher.
Did Nelson know about all this?
Nelson's attempts to quash things only end up drawing more attention to them. Same story with his talk mentioning the return of Elijah at the Kirtland temple and the sealing keys, etc. Now everybody's going to get familiar with the history (or lack thereof) that indicates that not even Joseph Smith thought that Elijah had returned yet.
@larryblack. Was it not rmn
who in recent
history actually
went through an immensely convoluted "explanation" of how "mor + mon" come to
mean "More Good" [in a
kind of
defense of "charitable"
doings vis a vis the HUGE
church publicity campaigns and the equally HUGE $$$
expenditures for them?]
If not he, who was that, please?
No. You're making it far too conspiratorial.
As an apostle, President Nelson has been trying to get rid of "Mormon" as a reference term for decades and decades.
The actual explanation is not sinister and follows Occam's razor.
Prophets are human. Prophets are fallible. Prophets usually don't speak for God. In fact, they rarely say "thus saith the Lord".
They have their pet projects, their biases and their passion projects. This was Nelson's. Now that he has complete control and veto authority, his projects are the one coming through the organization. Whoever the next prophet is, the same will occur. It doesn't make the restored gospel any more or less true. These are merely standard things that occur through any large corporation and organization.
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints is not a pure and holy organization. That doesn't mean The book of Mormon is not true, the restored gospel is not true, the doctrine is not true or that the priesthood authority is not present in the church. The church and its leadership is not and has never been without blemish. It is both the mistake of leadership and its membership that have deified both the leaders of the church and it as an organization.
Continuing to believe such things causes rife dissent when ppl learn about the mistakes and missteps of the church.
@@TureRealD "That doesn't mean [x, y, or z] are not true."
That's correct. The corporate nature of the church doesn't make those other things not true. Those things are false, independent of the presence of corporatism in the church or the human failings of its leaders. Nobody is so stupid as to throw out the BoM because the leaders aren't perfect, and we shouldn't imagine that they are.
@@aredesuyo Yes they are. That is typically what happens and you can't deny that. Did I say in ALL cases? No. However, it is typical. But you know this.
Usually, someone has a problem with something a past/present leader has said or a policy/practice the church has adopted. Many of these "problems and question" are 100% warranted and do deserve answers and we should be asking questions.
However, these paths also lead people to now FIND things that are problematic and PUSH on them. They then become consumed by them and believe this is indicative of most aspects of the doctrine, BoM or restored gospel as a whole. I simply have found that they don't typically correlate and it's someone's pride leading down a path that is hard to get out of without being humble.
That's the experience of most ppl. I've seen it many, many times. I'm not a church organization apologists. I have my own issues as well. I'm simply stating that this 2 hour presentation just isn't very compelling.
Lastly, I was addressing the specific claim that President Nelson wanted to step away from the term "Mormon" because of the Kirchner stuff. It's just factually untrue and shows a troubling ignorance that leads down conspiratorial dead ends. There are real issues within the church we should talk about, these are not them.
Facinating dive into the historical and philosophical environment that may have informed the BOM. I would like to point out an error you made regarding the Vatican Obelisk. It was not looted from Egypt by the Roman Catholic Church. Instead, it was taken from Egypt by ancient Romans to embellish the spina of the Circus of Nero on the Vatican Hill in Rome. The circus was a chariot race track that is reputed to be the place where St. Peter was martyred. Later during the 4th century AD, St. Peter's Basilica was built over the remains of Nero's circus and a cemetery by the Emperor Constantine.
@timhazeltine3256 Thank you, Tim, for this new perspective. All details are important. I'll look into this more, and if necessary, will make a change to the current or next edition of the book. I appreciate the perspicaciousness!
@timhazeltine. Yes!
The way things "Come to Pass" is truly a "marvelous work and a wonder"!
NERO was grandson of one of the elder of two surviving daughters of Octavia,
SIRED by
Mark Anthony after she was forced into that marriage prior to Anthony's escapades into Egypt and his descent into the madness of Cleopatra.
Anthony himself was VERY LIKE Nero in his blood-thirst, violent nature, and his quite
cruel creativity!
All perfect traits to be SEEDED
into that perfect soil.
This sounds pretty interesting. I got the hardcover and the kindle version.
Awesome podcast!!! I love having this information!!! I’m going to buy the book now!!! Thank you for sharing this with us!!!
My (non-member) therapist suggested I cut back on my obsession to finding out the truth about the Church...but after watching this episode I might need to put myself in UNI for a few days to protect me from hurting myself!
I need another session of EMDR Therapy, this stuff is mind blowing!
Thank You Rebecca and Landon for sharing Lars Nielsen with us, this episode needs a disclaimer too! LOL
@greghardin2394 Haha. Make sure that you take care of yourself as you digest this new information. We are all in this together. Happy lazy-learning!
I’ve been doing it for 40 yrs (and back then I actually had to go to libraries). It gets fun eventually.
Great show! Very informative. Thank you for posting it.
SO...... WHAT is "The Romance of Celeste"??? Does it read like The Book of Mormon?
none of it reads like the book of mormon. the theory is that Spalding's writing inspired the book of mormon. Lar's theory still requires the idea that JS, Rigdon, and others wrote the book of mormon.
@@urloony Which is my theory. Not JS alone but with assistance or a group effort
@@krismurphy7711 I also watched the Mormondiscussions podcast, where Lars is far more thorough than here. However, his theory doesn't address the biggest problem of providing any evidence that Rigdon ever came into contact with Spalding or that Rigdon ever knew anything about the book of mormon before it was published. The Kircherisms are fascinating and the connection to John Smith equally so, but there is still no smoking gun that puts Spalding and Rigdon together.
This is a fascinating topic! I've ordered the book and can't wait to read more!
Excellent. Such great research. God bless. I buying the book.
Thank you for this glimpse into the past! What fascinating times and places full of colorful characters! And I can’t believe Rebecca was a neighbor with the Nibleys! I was just down the street! I read Nibley’s “Approaching Zion”. As a an earnest high school student. Ugh. Can’t believe Hugh Nibley didn’t have the courage to reveal the truth! He conspired against us all. Thank you to the author for having the brilliance and presence of mind and courage to “do what is right!”
@grittypretty "Do what is right--let the consequences follow!" I am grateful to the church for teaching me that, and more grateful to the exmo community for REALLY teaching me that.
I did like Nibley's "approaching Zion". But yes, I think whether he knew it or not he really stretched things and purported things that a more objective academic could not possibly do. I hate to label anyone as dishonest, so I think he was so in the apologetic zone that it got the best of him.
Nibley stated WHAT IT WOULD MEAN if it were proven Joseph Smith was in fact a moneydigger. AND HE WAS CORRECT!!
@@truthseeker4286I like the way you phrased that! Thank you. What a difficult position.
This is amazing.
Wow- I knew John Smith had something to do with everything - after reading Evidence of early Mormon counterfeiting where I first learned about John Smith- thanks for making the connection for me 👍
My second time watching this👍.
Rebecca how are you enjoying reading this book?
This book is eye opening!
Yes it has some very interesting ideas and claims. Lars will be in the chat tomorrow if you have questions.
Just watched the video on his website. This will be interesting!
I’m definitely interested in this. The explanations as to the creation of this book far outweigh the faith one needs to just believe the narrative.
I’ve already bought it and from what I’ve read so far (and fact checked) it is a solid read. Not too far into it yet but this is VERY VERY interesting.
@@funkyfreshtx I hope you'll like Chapter 20: The Quantification of Faith. I talk about this specifically. =)
Whoa, mind blown…
That magnetic glass ball setup sounds a lot like a ouija board”game”
This book is a bombshell to the Mormon Church. Great research and a great theory about the many influences that went into producing the Book of Mormon. The book was already proven to be a 19th century production, but this work takes the matter to a new level. My only criticism is that the text could have stood some weeding, such as with the fictitious conversations. Otherwise the thesis is well documented and supported by undeniable facts, which are duly footnoted.
And obviously both the names "Baruch" (Baruchias) and Nephi are in the Apocrypha which is likely where Kirtscher got that name from...
@calebrockstedt Precisely. Kircher chose names for his slippery rabbi (Barachias Nephi) that were only in the Catholic canon, but not in the canon of the rest of Christianity, which would cause his Catholic contemporaries to question him less. He collected what he said were the bones of the nephilim and put them on display in his Museo Kircheriano, precisely because he enjoyed the idea that his made-up Nephi was a "giant" in the field of linguistics. Baruch means "blessed" in Arabic (with Barachias being the Greek transliteration of the name). Because Barachias, the father of Zacharias, was murdered between the altar and the sanctuary, Kircher hoped that this name would also invoke feelings of integrity. In other words, Kircher designed for his fictitious source to have names that agreed with the backstory of him being a part-Jewish/part-Egyptian rabbi, who was a man of great stature intellectually, as evidenced by his mysterious manuscript. I hope this helps!
This is huge!
This was Amazing...
I’m so ready for RFM to read this book and put his thoughts out there.
@TheSurlyBuddhist I am scheduled to go on his podcast, explain more, and answer his question this Wednesday, April 24. Hope that you can make it live or afterwards!
@@HowItCameToPassThank you for your reply! I absolutely loved this episode, and am beyond excited for your discussion with RFM.
Also, I’ll be getting the ebook or audiobook! Thank you so very much for your work, your time, and acting in the interest of truth. I very much appreciate and respect you.
Wow, those last 15 minutes about BYU and Kircher are pretty damning.......great job!
The "Testimonials" on the website are soooooooooo funny!!!!
Where is the reference to the quote from Elder Bednar? I couldn’t find it. 19:59
I think solving the riddle of the origin of the Book of Mormon is like using a whiteboard. We know the church’s narrative is incorrect and not based in reality, so let’s throw everything we know on a whiteboard until reasonable combinations and solutions appear. The truth is out there.
I think your empirically evident biased efforts to discredit the book of mormon is exactly like using a whiteboard, etc.
Though quite disappointingly, the narrative of the church is too often purposely incorrect, the truth is out there. But your empirically evident confirmation bias shows that your podcast is not a reliable source.
And you've claimed that the BOM has been proven a Fraud as well as the older New Testament. Tell us, which of all the THEORIES, including this one has PROVEN the book of Mormon is a fraud?
@@truthseeker4286 Mormonism contradicts the Bible. Mormons participate in EVERYTHING Jesus asked His followers NOT to do. You might want to read The Epistle to the Hebrews sometime…if you’re truly interested in following Christ, friend. “Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” -Hebrews 12:2, KJV. Jesus didn’t need a disorderly, convicted necromancer to “restore” anything in 1830 AD. Jesus told us repeatedly to avoid false prophets and that God FINISHED his work when He sent the Son.
@@TalismanianDevil I do very much like the scripturereferences you stated. Thank God for the new testament.
@@truthseeker4286 Please read Hebrews, friend. The New Covenant is about abandoning Judaism. Prophets and priest are NOT supposed to interfere in our relationship with Jesus. It mocks His sacrifice. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” -Hebrews 6:4-6, KJV
To be clear, Jesus did not author or finish any book. All writings claiming to be the word of God or Jesus are written by men that we have accepted as speaking on behalf of both. This is an important point because Mormons aren't practicing contrary to God, but are acting in accordance to words written by those they have accepted as speaking for God. Same as you and the Bible. The discussion should be why do we follow men that say they speak for God?
Appreciate all the hard work to help us know the truth
Yeah it looks like some comments are disappearing...
Mormonish does not moderate comments. This seems to be a TH-cam issue.
I started doing my research about Joseph Smith his family connection with Dartmouth after I realized Joseph Smith got a lot of his eternal perspectives from Emanuel swedenborg. I know for a fact they had that book at Dartmouth college and they studied it.
Joseph Smith mentioned Swedenborg's writings, so he was indeed familiar with them. That's probably where Smith got his doctrine of the three degrees of glory.
Just bought the book!
@perrykim5 Awesome! I'm looking forward to hearing your reactions and how to improve the theory. Happy lazy-learning!
Rebecca, since you worked at BYU Harold B Lee Library during a portion of the Hugh Nibley, et al, apologetic hay day era, can you please create a Mormon*ish episode dedicated to your memories of that era with your Exmo hindsight? Could you elicit the assistance of your other fellow employees from that same era? You may be able to provide many missing links as to the extent primary early Mormon sources have been hidden away that are damaging to the current propaganda narrative of LDS PR?
Watching the video on his website shocked me
THANK YOU for loving Sydney! I agree
Im still angry. 😂
Anger is a healthy emotion. Stay blessed.🎉🎉🎉🎉
Moi aussi!
@orisonorchards4251 it's hard to not. The lies and deceit
If your attention wonders during the preliminary comments, the substance of the podcast begins just after the 26:40 timestamp.
Thank you! 🙏
Oh, please. JS always knew he couldn't find treasure and it's unsupportable nonsense to assert he initially believe he was honorable. Power didn't *later* corrupt JS. He was a conman sociopath from the get go. But this is absolutely fascinating, and I look forward to scholars adding to it.
Joseph did the treasure-digging magic thing part-time for 5-6 years because it paid better than farm work did. The fact that Josiah Stowell hired him from 80 miles away to come look for treasure on his property means that Joseph had already established a reputation as a "seer" by age 20. You don't go work for a guy 80 miles from your area unless he pays you enough money to make it worthwhile.
@@randyjordan5521 Yes, he was a convincing conman. He knew he was a convincing conman.
@@randyjordan5521 I also always love how in just about every aspect of Joseph Smith's personal history you can see names of people and places that easily could have served as inspiration for many of the names that pop up in the Book of Mormon. With just the change of one letter, Josiah could be Mosiah. You don't even have to change even one letter for Lemuel Durfee (the Smith's landlord) to get a shout out in the BoM. Ditto Luman Walters or Laman Walter. Joseph is self-explanatory. Sam too. Lehigh county gets a shout out if you lop off the silent "igh" (which was never needed anyway). Harmony, Pennsylvania gets squeezed into "Himni" (which may be how the locals pronounced it anyway). Hale, Emma can become Helama...n. (Gotta stick an "n" on the end to keep people guessing.) Mahonri just kicks out an "s" and a "y" and replaces them with an "h" and an "i". Pronounce a Spanish "J" and the Daughter of Jared IS the Daughter of Herod.
You absolutely should charge, don’t apologize for that… Ordering book now!
The upcoming episode on Mormonism Live, EP 177, will also discuss the book. 💪
I tried to watch this podcast, but really struggled making the connections that he was talking about with the book of mormon and joseph smith. Maybe the book does a better job?
It follows a typical approach at attempting to de-bunk the Book of Mormon, which is, throw as much crap at the wall, and see what sticks, in other words attempt to overwhelm the viewer with so many accusations that they are overwhelmed with the work it takes to validate the accusations. It’s sad how much time these people will dedicate to tearing something down. Why not preach what they consider to be truth? Because it’s a typical tactic of the adversary is to tear things down, I would be more prone to listen if they were preaching what they considered to be truth. This video is hard to watch. Try counting how many different accusations are made in this clip, I lost track after 5 minutes, there went 2 hours 14 minutes and 17 seconds of my life I will never see again😅
@@coryhiatt9152 Whether the guest on this video or his book existed would not alter the fact that the Book of Mormon is a demonstrable fraud.
An important interview partner for a follow up is Randy Bell, as the book heavily interacts with his "Dartmouth connection" ideas and studies of Prof. John Smith's lectures.
Since Dan Vogel's "report" about Dartmouth, putting that together with other things I've been studying for years but kept coming to dead-ends, and then the EPA disclosures, I feel pretty certain that if just my own little "suspicions" prove even close, that Dartmouth Connection could blow the Polar Ice Cap clean off the planet.
Hope I live long enough to see it.
It's scarier to "feel" it and endure the weight than any "disillusionment" resulting from diligent exposition might pose.
No way "COVID" was fortuitous. "Nothing is hidden except to be revealed."
SOOO many thanks to all (four) and each!
[Just reached the part of pod in which you explained meaning of word "mormon"! I HAVE BEEN SHOUTING IT "PARASITE" for few years now, just out of my anger, and no knowledge of else!
A "word-nerd" lifelong, I think that, for me, it's just that
THE WORD SOUNDS LIKE
WHAT IT IS!]
Good idea. And since Hyrum was actually a student at the "Moor's Indian Charity School" which was located on the same campus and out of which Dartmouth itself actually sprang...I guess Hyrum could also have been called a "Moor man". There was an early 20th Century psychologist (Walter F. Prince) who wrote an article examining the Book of Mormon from the perspective of the mental processes involved in devising names for a work of fiction. Certain types of names or combinations of syllables would be constantly suggesting themselves subliminally. The BoM is full of Mor + on syllables in various combinations. Ammoron, Mormon, Moroni, Moron. Prince suggested that the William Morgan affair may have contributed to this. (Morgan's widow actually became a plural wife of Joseph Smith). Add to that the possibility of MonMor being there. Also the "Moor" from Moor's Charity School.
I get my book tomorrow! Lars is the man.
Wow. Really? I was waiting for the greater epiphany, The Gotcha moment.
Unfortunately, the spaghetti logic devolved into a bigger Conspiracy than the already wild LDS narrative.
Maybe when all is said and done, one should go back a few hundred years more and study William of Ackhom, who said "entities (and suppositions) must not be multiplied beyond necessity. "
So you have no understanding of how those secret societies worked back in the day! Boring response shows how small your world view is.
Lars’ website seems to be shutdown. Mormon Church know anything about this?
As an outsider I’d say this is likely to be the biggest challenge to Mormon faith since the rash of gay teen suicides and Boy Scout raping had that three way with financial fraud.
1:47:25 is this Kircher's Kinderhook plates? What a crazy parallel!
Excellent. Just ordered the book. Excited to read it. Not surprised alchemy is at the root. Kircher’s faux languages remind one of John Dee’s obsidian looking glass faux Enochian language. I’ve always seen JS as a John Dee type. Remember Smith had a Jupiter alchemist talisman on him when he died.
Can someone give me the CliffsNotes version of this? I tried to watch him twice and slept through it both times.
Skip to the last third. That where he gets to the point.
Other than the name nephi and Mormon are there any similarities in the actual writings of this guy? I might just buy the book but curious
You are all amazing!! Thank you for this important episode!!
I've never heard of Sydney Rigdon be romanticized so much… "Beautiful man" and again "beautiful man" and other adoring superlatives. The adoration seems quite odd
This is fascinating. Thank you for all of the work you have done.
I’m feeling so sad that the honored Hugh Nibley was complicit in hiding and locking up the truth.
After a point, not much heart left to break. SO JUST
BRING
out the
SLEDGE-HAMMER.
Actually, think I begin to feel better after a while of pondering info. 🌹
Is this not the story of le petit prince😮 31:05
It doesn't matter how you try to disprove the Book of Mormon , believers will never be swayed.
Of course not, believers never care about truth.
It's not about changing TBM's,just getting at the truth.
@@Mikelray-df9my Thank you. I agree. Trying to get at more accurate history can be instructive inside and outside of a religious context.
@HowItCameToPass I appreciate your work.I can't imagine how much research was involved. Just ordered your book.Good luck.
It doesn't matter how you try to disprove and point out the logical fallacies of these podcasters, they will never be swayed because of their confirmation bias
If people only understood the occult and how they operate, this would make perfect sense.
Can you elaborate?
"The" occult isnt a simple group of beliefs...many groups and individuals look into things that are hidden (meaning of occult) Mormons think they found answers to what was hidden. They are quite mistaken with most things. But not with everything. Seeing "the occult" as some kind of boogey man is a waste of time. Some "occultists" are terrible people, some aren quite spectacular.
@@charlesmendeley9823 If I may make a recommendation, read "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View." Quinn does an exceptional job laying out the common superstitions and practices leading up to the early 19th century in America, and then explaining how they pertain to the Smith family and the advent of the LDS religious system of belief. I would suggest reading this book prior to reading "How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass" for significant context. Explaining these elements comprehensively in a TH-cam comment is not realistic.
Got the book, I’m so intrigued by this information and will start reading today. Thank you all.
I just ordered the book from Amazon.
Dartmouth College is still called Dartmouth College, even though it is really a university. Dartmouth College was founded to bring education to the native Americans.
@Geoplanetjane.
Hello, Geo!
Whatever the auspices under which Dartmouth was erected, established, and elevated, its
AGENDA was conceived
"abroad".
It can be reasonably under- stood that Dartmouth was something like a "house-
warming gift" to the young
America, BUT NOT to the continent's NATIVE
peoples.
Man, these two brothers are going to become public enemies numbers 1 and 2 to the church if this hypothesis holds up.
Or the church will roll on and these guys will disappear into history
My husband & I are wondering how Joseph translated it. Do you have any ideas on that?
Just another signs of the times.. to confuse others to disbelieve the most perfect Book ever written!!
The book has so many faults it is easy to dissect and see where the man made changes come from.
The signs of the times, like the apocalypse? Apocalypse means an unveiling so the signs of the times are people seeing truths unveiled...truth like religions being false, as an example.
Mormonism confuses others from discovering true christianity.
Sunday Morning and not at Mass/church service! Bunch of heathens. Only joking. I am an organist and I faithfully play for Mass twice every Sunday and have done that for decades. Your missing out on a few good hymn tunes and a wonderful time of contemplation. If you are ever in London I will give you the details. Cheers. Graham.
very thought provoking. Never a Mormon, but rather an ex-JW background. It's curious how similar in ways that the various religions that had their roots in the burned-over district in upstate NY face similar issues and have to overcome the same thought processes.
Get togethers at the Nielsen house must be getting really awkward...
I've listened to a good portion of the interview and still don't know what the point of the book is. What is the direct connection to Joseph Smith? (I am not LDS either!)
The LDS church has over $175 Billion in liquid assets. Over $100 Billion in Ensign Peak stock trading shell companies. Over $385 Billion in total assets like land, chapels, temples, farms, businesses, etc. Yet prosecuted a hungry homeless man for theft for eating 4 chicken nuggets. The LDS church charges poor people tithing, 10% of their income. The LDS church counts member donated service hours has church $$$ donations to the poor. They lie about donations to charity. They treat BYU as a charity. They have repeatedly transferred charity donations in other countries to BYU university. They broke government reporting laws in the USA, Australia, Canada & UK. There recent $1 Billion in donations was to avoid losing their tax exampt status. It had nothing to do with helping those in need.
There is 3 different books which each have some similarities to the book of Mormon. there are theories of the Book of Mormon being an embellished chimera of the other books.
Mormon Stories Podcast on the Book of Mormon is far better done, much more complete & detailed.
@@Pay-It_Forward Hi, Thanks for the response. Does anyone really believe that Joseph Smith had any idea at all about Fr. Kircher? Linguists have tried, and are trying, to re-create the Adamic language. A lot of work has been done on proto-Indo-European, a recognized and scholarly branch of modern linguist studies but that is a far cry from the earlier language groups.
@@stephengriffin4612 Mormon Stories Podcasts talks about how Hyrum was at Dartmouth College for 3 years taking Mythology classes & was taught about this. Plus Hyrum was roommates with the son of the author of "View of the Hebrews" another book Joseph Smith plagiarized ideas from. The podcast claims Joe didn't even live in Palmyra until 3 years after first vision event. And that there was frequently vision accounts in the newspapers for years around the time of the revivals. Nathan Smith Director of Dartmouth College Medical is the one who did Joe's bone surgery. His staff frequently went to the Smith home near the College.