Hey Steve I wanted to say thanks for this and other topics. I always learn something from your stuff, only recently subscribed but enjoying the discussions.
Thanks Steve. I'm used to British sized houses that I feel are warm and intimate. American houses are often too large and echoey for my taste. (As a service tech I've seen thousands, very few with decent acoustics or even a stereo!) My bungalow sized home in the US has two music rooms (13×21ft). The main living room has bookshelf speakers on the long wall, the second has floor standing transmission lines away from the short wall. (I did try these speakers in a 13x13 room. They did indeed overwhelm the room. Room bass modes we're also an issue). Both rooms use two REL subs. I had to add GIK and Primacoustic wall treatment to the short wall setup, since the speakers were closer to the side walls. Though different, I like the sound of both systems. I no longer obsess about "fixing" the sound, and enjoy the music thoroughly :-)
I subscribe to the view that room-speaker coupling is critical. I'm running Magico S5 Mk2's in my medium size room which is also my living/dining room, so i'm limited with what I can do with room acoustics. Though fortunately my room's acoustics are basically good. Some soft furnishings & a rug helps. Plus I have open hardwood stairs behind my racks which act as a crude diffuser. I think the speakers also play an important part. The S5 Mk2's are a sealed box design, and the cabinets are basically inert. The design of the speakers also minimizes deleterious room interactions.
My room is 4x6m (approx 15x20ft) and run Wilson Watt Puppies (DIY) and to my ear it sounds really nice. Big sursprize to me was that high end audio shows (typically held in hotels in Europe) the smaller rooms made a bigger impression than the bigger ones on me. In Krefeld (Germany) they demo'd the L'Art du Son (€80.000) turntable in a room even smaller than mine!!! SME, Dr Feikert, they all were there in pretty small but good sounding rooms.
Hi Steve, you want to live in the uk, where a 12 x18 is a large room, my av room is only 12 × 12, we need to treat our rooms to make the most of them,I'd love a New York apartment, another great topic👍
Steve, you once did a short show on the Magico A3 speakers. You promised a full review, but unless I missed it, you haven't delivered on that. My room is 14' by 22' with an 8' ceiling. I'm thinking something on the smaller side would do well in there. My current speakers are B&W 804 that I bought about 20 years ago. Most likely the next speakers I buy will be the last expensive ones I ever buy, so I want to get this right.
Elac UniFi on 26" stands, 2 feet from back wall, 18'' toed in from side wall. RSL 10" Speed Woofer down firing, sitting right next to the listening upholstered chair. A 11 by 13 room covered with framed posters, canvas mixed with glass surfaces, racks of vinyl and cds along the walls. Turntable and electronics on heavy duty equipment shelves that can support 500 lbs each in closet area with open wood folding doors. Perfect naw, but pretty, pretty, pretty good!
Great topic and not discussed nearly enough. Audiophiles can borrow from the MBA crowd who know they need to measure to improve. Get a calibrated mic and some free REW software and measure your room. That information will provide insight on what needs to be done to improve your room acoustics. However, most people are constrained in a domestic environment and aren’t allowed to turn their listening space into a studio but there are some acceptable options.
In 1962, on a vacation trip to visit the National Parks in the southwest, we stopped by Salt Lake City. We visited the Mormon tabernacle, and I got to listen to the pipe organ. The room was supposed to be designed like the human mouth, so it had a half-dome at each end. I noticed that they had clear plastic sheets weighted at the bottom with wood strips, hanging from the ceiling. That was my first exposure to a pipe organ and acoustic treatment.
I’m having good results with my 13 (varies) X 56 room. Have the front wall treated with foam. The room has lots of different objects in it so it’s not just a big box.
Are we talking Japanese rooms with paper thin walls? Would act like a room within a room. Cause the outer house walls would be bass reflective; the small looking room would behave as an large room for bass but a small room for highs.
I wholeheartedly agree I'm reviewing a pair of towers right now and my room is on the medium size to smaller size and I'm getting some strange base Knowles in that room because of it when normally with the speakers that I use day today this doesn't happen
Give the equipment the best location in the room. I prefer a rectangle, radiating longwise, but a square can be fine. The difference is how long the side wall reflections take to reach you on one bounce - the rectangle squeezes them a bit, while the square gives them more time. Then, front to back, I don't want much reflecting from the back - it takes longer to get there, and more time to reflect back to you. I have a 12' x 12' room we use for 'stereo', and a 12' x 17' home theater room. Listening positions are at 9'. We use an area carpet in the 12' x 17' room, and almost the entire back wall is lined with book cases filled with books, so what we hear from the rear is pretty much rear channel activity or nothing. The trick is to minimize the amount of mixing of reflections, especially keeping in mind the timing factor - keep asking yourself what is the net-net reaching your ears at any moment. It doesn't really take much to figure what surfaces reflect and then 'treat' or tune those surfaces with a variety of things that work, and don't cost a fortune you could be spending on more good stuff.
I prefer my Infinity Kappa 8s that have rear facing and front facing tweeters of a quality that makes reflections worth hearing. I'm sure Arnie knew what he was doing. 500 bucks for the pair used.
I have a semi open concept house on the main floor. The stereo is in the living room, it's 14ft×18ft. Each room is vaulted at the top, but very open other wise. I find this top vault creates an invisible wall, the sound changes drastically walking through the arch between the kitchen area into the living room even though it's wide open. I assume the top vault is keeping a lot of the sound waves in the living room. When your in the kitchen area and face the living room, it sounds like the stereo completely disappears and the entire room is the source of the music. Very strange, but we love it!
15'x30' room with 7.1 system comprised of all Wharfedale Diamond 8's. 8.4 Towers in front with center. Surrounds on side and 8.2's for the rear. Room is carpeted. Big overstuffed leather furniture. I think it sounds great. The speakers disappear and the sound is right there. However after listening to Steve he's got me thinking about replacing the front towers with a pair of Magnepan .7's.
You should do a frequency sweep using a sine wave generator (app) and analyse the bass if you haven't already. It shows you exactly what's going on in your room and even how the room can cause stereo illusions below 80 hz, when one ear is in a location that the sound is in phaze and the other ear is in a location that's out of phaze or even just lower decibels. Large vs small speakers have nothing to do with room nodes. Larger rooms will exhibit room nodes in lower frequencies that are hopefully not noticed. Smaller rooms exhibit room nodes in the ranges that have a large impact to the listening experience. Hope this was helpful to everyone. 😉🙂🙂🙂
What’s a really, really big speaker? I’ve got a pair of Revel Salon 2 speakers in an open concept living room/dining room arrangement that is 18’ x 36’ x 9’6”. Half way down the room there is an archway that, from the dining room, for the most part, does not obstruct a view of the speakers. Sure, I’ve got a couple of room problems that, unless I want to live on my own, I cannot solve but the sound is pretty spectacular. I’ve a non-audiophile music loving friend who never misses an opportunity to say that the speakers are too big for the room. He has me second-guessing myself and I can’t decide whether he’s right or whether he’s just jealous.
If you think the sound is "pretty spectacular" then the speakers are just right. Your friend's opinion is irrelevant as its you that has to live with it.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk How can an audiophile judge speaker size? They can't either. It comes down to personal taste. What one person thinks is too big another feels is too small. It comes down to what suits your needs and tastes.
@@scottyo64 sure you can judge speaker size. Too small and you can't get full range frequency response. It's pretty simple. Then you have to add a subwoofer unless you are bass deaf or just don't care. Speaker size has been getting smaller too because people don't generally want their room taken up by huge speakers. So yeah needs aspect or just reality there.
I don't see any connection that room size should dictate the size of a woofer diaphragm. The larger surface area along with a good magnet and high compliance and the range of voice coil movement control how well and how low the bass response can be. If the bass is too loud, turn down the bass or use an equalizer. Smaller cones will not produce much true bass below 50 Hz. I do understand how the size of the room can cause unwanted resonances, but this is not affected by driver size. Once again, hear judicious use of an octave equalizer would help the most.
As a musician first and engineer and audiophile second, I can say this - Medium size rooms, on AVERAGE, are the best small rooms to play in. The reverb and slapback is tamed and the intimacy is at its best. Of course, these rooms are often made better by the presence of 50-100 bodies SOAKING UP SOME OF THE SOUND TOO, which you're not likely to have in your apartment. In which case, books. Books are one of the best diffusers commonly available. Recording engineer Bobby Owinski talks about a studio in LA with bookshelves on every wall as the best sounding studio he's been in. As for concert venues (not that anyone LIVES in one, lol) I've found that concert venues that were designed for acoustic voice and acoustic instruments are by FAR the best (like you said, "OLDER ones"). I think many modern concert venues suck b/c they take into account sound reinforcement - and they shouldn't. If the venue is designed for a solo cello in the center of the stage, the likelihood it will be useful for other things, in my opinion, is higher.
You can make most spaces work with proper overall design of the system. My preference is a huge room so that you can optimize for large social gatherings.
Hey my original Legacy Focus speakers with 3 12inch woofers per speaker are stuffed into my 13X15 man cave! Talk about foundation cracking bass!! Let’s rock-n-roll.
"Overloading a small room with bass" is an audiophile myth. Large speakers in a small room provide more even bass throughout the room, than those same speakers would in a larger room. Small room suffer from the effects of first reflections in the highs and mids
Cake Batter, let's face it, most people neither have the speakers or the electronics to properly reproduce bass. Or they buy some little speakers and try to justify their little speakers lack of bass by some excuse. That's what I am seeing.
I have Nautilus 801's (PC -> PS Audio GCD -> Levinson 333) in a relatively small room (14x11) with floor to ceiling bass traps in the corners behind the speakers (Safe N Sound insulation behind cloth screens) and I actually might have taken a little bit too much bass out of the room. That said, by instruments like a kettle drum or a stand up bass REALLY sound like the instrument that produced the sound. Also, the difference in where I position my other DIY absorption panels is profound. As far as overwhelming the room with bass.. nope. I might have gone too far.
I'd also like to add that I've tried my CDM2SE bookshelf speakers in this room with the same electronics and there is no way that anyone would choose the little (recommended in this video) speakers over the N801's. It's kind of just bad advice.
@@thomprd I recently picked up a pair of KEF LS50 speakers used for a grand and they are nice, but bass wise? Just OK. It's funny KEF wants you to stick foam in the ports if closer to the wall than some silly distance. Anyway I got an REL T5 at the same time, and that's a nice addition. One subwoofer is a serious compromise, maybe I can find another one used and will go that route. It's a nice subwoofer adjustment wise, and absolutely adds a lot. The KEF are rated pretty high even at the low end (pun intended)
Bass can be a problem in small rooms when the wavelengths of the bass frequencies are of the same order as the room dimensions. For example, a note with a wavelength of 11' has a frequency of 102Hz. Usually it is the half wavelength that is the problem so you may well have issues for a frequency with a half wavelength of 11', namely 51Hz, for 13' - 43Hz and 8' - 70Hz (a 1,000Hz frequency has a wavelength of 4"). These problems translate as boomy bass or no bass. You can hear this for yourself by playing some bass through your speakers and walking round the room, including the corners. You will hear different levels of bass in different locations.
I have klipsch la scalas in 35m2 room and bass has never been too much. So it depends on the speaker design and not the driver size as mine are with 15" bass drivers ;)
@@Lycosa do not buy klipsch la scalas they will be big for you :) I know cuz they are too big for me ... the wife calls them the washing maschines...initially I took offence but after I saw the dimensions turnsout they are quite a bit bigger than a standard wasing mashine :D you gotta love Paul Klipsch ...no compromizes ...0 fucks given
I agree with Ivaylo Petkov. In my experience, the bass in a small room really depends on the kind of speakers, not just the size. I have Klipschorns shoehorned (no pun intended) into a studio apartment, and their biggest problem is that the don't produce enough bass. I've heard Khorns in larger rooms that don't have this problem. So I am guessing it has something to do with the way they're crossed over. At lower volumes (volumes appropriate for a smaller space) the big midrange horn dominates; but when you can air them out a little more, like in a big space, the 15" bass drivers catch up and fill in. Of course, in my small room, a tiny subwoofer does the same job nicely.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Klipschorns use the room itself to extend the bass horn so that a larger room provides a larger horn. The other Heritage models optimize efficiency over bass extension by design.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac That's true. But the Khorns are rated down to 45Hz if you've got them properly situated in the corners, and that should be deep enough for most music. I just don't find that it is in my room. But another thing I should have mentioned is the damping factor on the amp. High damping, I've noticed, sucks the bass right out of the Khorns, and that might be part of my problem. I guess that's why owners are always advised to use tube amps.
Old 15 inch speakers alike Altec, Jbl, Tannoy,... have very strong magnets and as result electromechanical damping and very low Qts. So they don't sound boomy and can very good in a small room. I was using Altec 604e in 190 sq feet room for many years and I did not have any issue with base. Modern speakers try to get more base and deeper base from smaller cabinets and use chipper bult drivers with weak magnets and cones made from heavy plastic or other synthetic materials. They also try to introduce "slam" base that is not exist in acoustic instruments. As result modern tower speakers tend to sound boomy.
Hi Steve I am from Mexico, and your fan, what do you think to have early 2000 audio and a actual dac, I have Rotel RSP 1098, Amplis Rotel RMB 1075 y Rotel RMB 1066, CD RDV -1050, Bocinas Klipsch (2)RF25 y (2) RB61 II (4) Klipsch KLf30 upgraded Bob Crites, Apple TV 4, MacBook Pro 2012, do you think that i need a Dac? I am thinking in a musical fidelity v90, thank you for the advice
This is one of the only times when I've disagreed with you. But, then again, I invested a lot into all this foam. Hey have you ever noticed that every person who has a channel on you tube, gives instructions at the end of every video they make, on how to use you tube lol
Room treatments: don't agree at all. Corner bass traps will make almost any room sound better. In many rooms treatments on the back wall to prevent echo from the back wall also helps - especially in smaller rooms.
A bigger room has a longer reverb time which helps to give a sense of airiness and spaciousness to the sound. Big or small, its the dimensions and shape that really matter. If the room is squarish, or shaped or dimensioned in such a way that loads of standing waves are produced, the bass reproduction would be awful and boomy. I’d focus on avoiding any squarish rooms. Weirdly shaped rooms are best. IMO, each premium grade component is totally useless if the room itself (the most important component) is not even right.
I know this is subjective but I wanna get some opinions anyway. What's preferable and why? Great preamp with subpar speakers Or Great speakers with subpar preamp Appreciate your feedback
@0:53 Not sure what you qualify as "bigger" speakers? "Six inch woofers as maximum"? Vandersteen's line, starting with the Quatro, have larger than six inch woofers, and are adjustable to compensate for room acoustics. The Quatros have 8" woofers. The higher end models have 12" woofers. Yes, these speakers are expensive. However, at their given price points, they compete with speakers that are double, or more, in price. So I am just throwing this out there, because you can have your cake and eat it, too. You can have your deep bass (especially with the 12" woofer models), even if your room is not large (albeit, you might not reap all of the bass if your room is too small -- but the bass will be well controlled).
I live in NYC and my listening room is 8 x 3 feet. I put a recliner on one end and 2 huge tower speaker on the other end spaced 1 inch apart. to my left is my integrated amp with my hand on the volume knob. It is awesome!!!! and I have calculated that this is the maximum room size for any audio system before your wife complains!!! (just joking of course)
![NONT TANONT - ดอกไม้ที่รอฝน (spring) - Reimagined [Live Session]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nY2PsFZFEOg/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey Steve I wanted to say thanks for this and other topics. I always learn something from your stuff, only recently subscribed but enjoying the discussions.
Thanks Steve.
I'm used to British sized houses that I feel are warm and intimate.
American houses are often too large and echoey for my taste. (As a service tech I've seen thousands, very few with decent acoustics or even a stereo!)
My bungalow sized home in the US has two music rooms (13×21ft).
The main living room has bookshelf speakers on the long wall, the second has floor standing transmission lines away from the short wall.
(I did try these speakers in a 13x13 room. They did indeed overwhelm the room. Room bass modes we're also an issue).
Both rooms use two REL subs.
I had to add GIK and Primacoustic wall treatment to the short wall setup, since the speakers were closer to the side walls.
Though different, I like the sound of both systems. I no longer obsess about "fixing" the sound, and enjoy the music thoroughly :-)
I have a 18by 12 living room, perfect for my Focal 615 2 1/2 way speakers. PERFECTION!
I subscribe to the view that room-speaker coupling is critical. I'm running Magico S5 Mk2's in my medium size room which is also my living/dining room, so i'm limited with what I can do with room acoustics. Though fortunately my room's acoustics are basically good. Some soft furnishings & a rug helps. Plus I have open hardwood stairs behind my racks which act as a crude diffuser. I think the speakers also play an important part. The S5 Mk2's are a sealed box design, and the cabinets are basically inert. The design of the speakers also minimizes deleterious room interactions.
My room is 4x6m (approx 15x20ft) and run Wilson Watt Puppies (DIY) and to my ear it sounds really nice.
Big sursprize to me was that high end audio shows (typically held in hotels in Europe) the smaller rooms made a bigger impression than the bigger ones on me.
In Krefeld (Germany) they demo'd the L'Art du Son (€80.000) turntable in a room even smaller than mine!!!
SME, Dr Feikert, they all were there in pretty small but good sounding rooms.
Hi Steve, you want to live in the uk, where a 12 x18 is a large room, my av room is only 12 × 12, we need to treat our rooms to make the most of them,I'd love a New York apartment, another great topic👍
Steve, you once did a short show on the Magico A3 speakers. You promised a full review, but unless I missed it, you haven't delivered on that. My room is 14' by 22' with an 8' ceiling. I'm thinking something on the smaller side would do well in there. My current speakers are B&W 804 that I bought about 20 years ago. Most likely the next speakers I buy will be the last expensive ones I ever buy, so I want to get this right.
Elac UniFi on 26" stands, 2 feet from back wall, 18'' toed in from side wall. RSL 10" Speed Woofer down firing, sitting right next to the listening upholstered chair. A 11 by 13 room covered with framed posters, canvas mixed with glass surfaces, racks of vinyl and cds along the walls. Turntable and electronics on heavy duty equipment shelves that can support 500 lbs each in closet area with open wood folding doors. Perfect naw, but pretty, pretty, pretty good!
Great topic and not discussed nearly enough. Audiophiles can borrow from the MBA crowd who know they need to measure to improve. Get a calibrated mic and some free REW software and measure your room. That information will provide insight on what needs to be done to improve your room acoustics. However, most people are constrained in a domestic environment and aren’t allowed to turn their listening space into a studio but there are some acceptable options.
''Right in the middle''... provides the most options.
In 1962, on a vacation trip to visit the National Parks in the southwest, we stopped by Salt Lake City. We visited the Mormon tabernacle, and I got to listen to the pipe organ. The room was supposed to be designed like the human mouth, so it had a half-dome at each end. I noticed that they had clear plastic sheets weighted at the bottom with wood strips, hanging from the ceiling. That was my first exposure to a pipe organ and acoustic treatment.
I’m having good results with my 13 (varies) X 56 room. Have the front wall treated with foam. The room has lots of different objects in it so it’s not just a big box.
My Focal 726 Towers sound fantastic in my small 16 x 16 living room with carpet. Sometimes I hook up the OLA's. Wow!
Wonder how the Japanese audiophile small room sound with their large JBL speakers
Phua POO Kwang I’ve wondered about that too
My first thought too... Probably sound more like good car systems
Phua POO Kwang: I’m running Legacy Focus speakers in a small room! U want big sound u gotta go big!
Are we talking Japanese rooms with paper thin walls? Would act like a room within a room. Cause the outer house walls would be bass reflective; the small looking room would behave as an large room for bass but a small room for highs.
I wholeheartedly agree I'm reviewing a pair of towers right now and my room is on the medium size to smaller size and I'm getting some strange base Knowles in that room because of it when normally with the speakers that I use day today this doesn't happen
Give the equipment the best location in the room. I prefer a rectangle, radiating longwise, but a square can be fine. The difference is how long the side wall reflections take to reach you on one bounce - the rectangle squeezes them a bit, while the square gives them more time. Then, front to back, I don't want much reflecting from the back - it takes longer to get there, and more time to reflect back to you. I have a 12' x 12' room we use for 'stereo', and a 12' x 17' home theater room. Listening positions are at 9'. We use an area carpet in the 12' x 17' room, and almost the entire back wall is lined with book cases filled with books, so what we hear from the rear is pretty much rear channel activity or nothing. The trick is to minimize the amount of mixing of reflections, especially keeping in mind the timing factor - keep asking yourself what is the net-net reaching your ears at any moment. It doesn't really take much to figure what surfaces reflect and then 'treat' or tune those surfaces with a variety of things that work, and don't cost a fortune you could be spending on more good stuff.
I prefer my Infinity Kappa 8s that have rear facing and front facing tweeters of a quality that makes reflections worth hearing. I'm sure Arnie knew what he was doing. 500 bucks for the pair used.
I have a semi open concept house on the main floor. The stereo is in the living room, it's 14ft×18ft. Each room is vaulted at the top, but very open other wise. I find this top vault creates an invisible wall, the sound changes drastically walking through the arch between the kitchen area into the living room even though it's wide open. I assume the top vault is keeping a lot of the sound waves in the living room. When your in the kitchen area and face the living room, it sounds like the stereo completely disappears and the entire room is the source of the music. Very strange, but we love it!
15'x30' room with 7.1 system comprised of all Wharfedale Diamond 8's. 8.4 Towers in front with center. Surrounds on side and 8.2's for the rear. Room is carpeted. Big overstuffed leather furniture.
I think it sounds great. The speakers disappear and the sound is right there. However after listening to Steve he's got me thinking about replacing the front towers with a pair of Magnepan .7's.
You should do a frequency sweep using a sine wave generator (app) and analyse the bass if you haven't already. It shows you exactly what's going on in your room and even how the room can cause stereo illusions below 80 hz, when one ear is in a location that the sound is in phaze and the other ear is in a location that's out of phaze or even just lower decibels. Large vs small speakers have nothing to do with room nodes. Larger rooms will exhibit room nodes in lower frequencies that are hopefully not noticed. Smaller rooms exhibit room nodes in the ranges that have a large impact to the listening experience. Hope this was helpful to everyone. 😉🙂🙂🙂
What’s a really, really big speaker? I’ve got a pair of Revel Salon 2 speakers in an open concept living room/dining room arrangement that is 18’ x 36’ x 9’6”. Half way down the room there is an archway that, from the dining room, for the most part, does not obstruct a view of the speakers. Sure, I’ve got a couple of room problems that, unless I want to live on my own, I cannot solve but the sound is pretty spectacular. I’ve a non-audiophile music loving friend who never misses an opportunity to say that the speakers are too big for the room. He has me second-guessing myself and I can’t decide whether he’s right or whether he’s just jealous.
How can a non-audiophile even begin to judge speaker size?
If you think the sound is "pretty spectacular" then the speakers are just right. Your friend's opinion is irrelevant as its you that has to live with it.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk
How can an audiophile judge speaker size? They can't either. It comes down to personal taste. What one person thinks is too big another feels is too small. It comes down to what suits your needs and tastes.
@@scottyo64 sure you can judge speaker size. Too small and you can't get full range frequency response. It's pretty simple. Then you have to add a subwoofer unless you are bass deaf or just don't care. Speaker size has been getting smaller too because people don't generally want their room taken up by huge speakers. So yeah needs aspect or just reality there.
What would the affect be of having the speakers be "too big?" That's a huge room.
I don't see any connection that room size should dictate the size of a woofer diaphragm. The larger surface area along with a good magnet and high compliance and the range of voice coil movement control how well and how low the bass response can be. If the bass is too loud, turn down the bass or use an equalizer. Smaller cones will not produce much true bass below 50 Hz.
I do understand how the size of the room can cause unwanted resonances, but this is not affected by driver size. Once again, hear judicious use of an octave equalizer would help the most.
As a musician first and engineer and audiophile second, I can say this - Medium size rooms, on AVERAGE, are the best small rooms to play in. The reverb and slapback is tamed and the intimacy is at its best. Of course, these rooms are often made better by the presence of 50-100 bodies SOAKING UP SOME OF THE SOUND TOO, which you're not likely to have in your apartment. In which case, books. Books are one of the best diffusers commonly available. Recording engineer Bobby Owinski talks about a studio in LA with bookshelves on every wall as the best sounding studio he's been in.
As for concert venues (not that anyone LIVES in one, lol) I've found that concert venues that were designed for acoustic voice and acoustic instruments are by FAR the best (like you said, "OLDER ones"). I think many modern concert venues suck b/c they take into account sound reinforcement - and they shouldn't. If the venue is designed for a solo cello in the center of the stage, the likelihood it will be useful for other things, in my opinion, is higher.
You can make most spaces work with proper overall design of the system. My preference is a huge room so that you can optimize for large social gatherings.
Not parallel walls work very good.
Hey my original Legacy Focus speakers with 3 12inch woofers per speaker are stuffed into my 13X15 man cave! Talk about foundation cracking bass!! Let’s rock-n-roll.
"Overloading a small room with bass" is an audiophile myth. Large speakers in a small room provide more even bass throughout the room, than those same speakers would in a larger room. Small room suffer from the effects of first reflections in the highs and mids
Cake Batter, let's face it, most people neither have the speakers or the electronics to properly reproduce bass. Or they buy some little speakers and try to justify their little speakers lack of bass by some excuse. That's what I am seeing.
I have Nautilus 801's (PC -> PS Audio GCD -> Levinson 333) in a relatively small room (14x11) with floor to ceiling bass traps in the corners behind the speakers (Safe N Sound insulation behind cloth screens) and I actually might have taken a little bit too much bass out of the room. That said, by instruments like a kettle drum or a stand up bass REALLY sound like the instrument that produced the sound. Also, the difference in where I position my other DIY absorption panels is profound. As far as overwhelming the room with bass.. nope. I might have gone too far.
I'd also like to add that I've tried my CDM2SE bookshelf speakers in this room with the same electronics and there is no way that anyone would choose the little (recommended in this video) speakers over the N801's. It's kind of just bad advice.
@@thomprd I recently picked up a pair of KEF LS50 speakers used for a grand and they are nice, but bass wise? Just OK. It's funny KEF wants you to stick foam in the ports if closer to the wall than some silly distance. Anyway I got an REL T5 at the same time, and that's a nice addition. One subwoofer is a serious compromise, maybe I can find another one used and will go that route. It's a nice subwoofer adjustment wise, and absolutely adds a lot. The KEF are rated pretty high even at the low end (pun intended)
Bass can be a problem in small rooms when the wavelengths of the bass frequencies are of the same order as the room dimensions. For example, a note with a wavelength of 11' has a frequency of 102Hz. Usually it is the half wavelength that is the problem so you may well have issues for a frequency with a half wavelength of 11', namely 51Hz, for 13' - 43Hz and 8' - 70Hz (a 1,000Hz frequency has a wavelength of 4"). These problems translate as boomy bass or no bass. You can hear this for yourself by playing some bass through your speakers and walking round the room, including the corners. You will hear different levels of bass in different locations.
I have klipsch la scalas in 35m2 room and bass has never been too much. So it depends on the speaker design and not the driver size as mine are with 15" bass drivers ;)
A room the size of my house :). 35.5 m2 anyway
@@Lycosa do not buy klipsch la scalas they will be big for you :) I know cuz they are too big for me ... the wife calls them the washing maschines...initially I took offence but after I saw the dimensions turnsout they are quite a bit bigger than a standard wasing mashine :D you gotta love Paul Klipsch ...no compromizes ...0 fucks given
@@ivayloipetkov Hhahahaha I see, huge... washing machine :). Klipsch. Epic. La Scala. Yes I see
Best room for listening is the oval office, no corners.
I agree with Ivaylo Petkov. In my experience, the bass in a small room really depends on the kind of speakers, not just the size. I have Klipschorns shoehorned (no pun intended) into a studio apartment, and their biggest problem is that the don't produce enough bass. I've heard Khorns in larger rooms that don't have this problem. So I am guessing it has something to do with the way they're crossed over. At lower volumes (volumes appropriate for a smaller space) the big midrange horn dominates; but when you can air them out a little more, like in a big space, the 15" bass drivers catch up and fill in. Of course, in my small room, a tiny subwoofer does the same job nicely.
Klipsches aren't usually designed for bass extension, they opt for sensitivity.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Klipschorns use the room itself to extend the bass horn so that a larger room provides a larger horn. The other Heritage models optimize efficiency over bass extension by design.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac That's true. But the Khorns are rated down to 45Hz if you've got them properly situated in the corners, and that should be deep enough for most music. I just don't find that it is in my room. But another thing I should have mentioned is the damping factor on the amp. High damping, I've noticed, sucks the bass right out of the Khorns, and that might be part of my problem. I guess that's why owners are always advised to use tube amps.
Have you pre ordered the white album 50th anniversary, Steve?
Old 15 inch speakers alike Altec, Jbl, Tannoy,... have very strong magnets and as result electromechanical damping and very low Qts. So they don't sound boomy and can very good in a small room. I was using Altec 604e in 190 sq feet room for many years and I did not have any issue with base.
Modern speakers try to get more base and deeper base from smaller cabinets and use chipper bult drivers with weak magnets and cones made from heavy plastic or other synthetic materials. They also try to introduce "slam" base that is not exist in acoustic instruments. As result modern tower speakers tend to sound boomy.
I have a pair of JBLS that have a 10" woofer and I'm using them in a bedroom and at time the bass is a little to much
Hi Steve I am from Mexico, and your fan, what do you think to have early 2000 audio and a actual dac, I have Rotel RSP 1098, Amplis Rotel RMB 1075 y Rotel RMB 1066, CD RDV -1050, Bocinas Klipsch (2)RF25 y (2) RB61 II (4) Klipsch KLf30 upgraded Bob Crites, Apple TV 4, MacBook Pro 2012, do you think that i need a Dac? I am thinking in a musical fidelity v90, thank you for the advice
Old concert halls are made from wood good wood
This is one of the only times when I've disagreed with you. But, then again, I invested a lot into all this foam. Hey have you ever noticed that every person who has a channel on you tube, gives instructions at the end of every video they make, on how to use you tube lol
what about big speakers low listening volume in a small room? 7" woofer
my 11 x 12 room sounds pdf (pretty danged fine) with small sonus fabers, 2 big bad ass 12" Rythmik subs, and GIK Acoustic treatments.
Perfect room doesn't exist. How many home listening rooms look anything like the store's showroom. Play with what you have.
Room treatments: don't agree at all. Corner bass traps will make almost any room sound better. In many rooms treatments on the back wall to prevent echo from the back wall also helps - especially in smaller rooms.
Yes!!!!
A bigger room has a longer reverb time which helps to give a sense of airiness and spaciousness to the sound.
Big or small, its the dimensions and shape that really matter. If the room is squarish, or shaped or dimensioned in such a way that loads of standing waves are produced, the bass reproduction would be awful and boomy.
I’d focus on avoiding any squarish rooms. Weirdly shaped rooms are best.
IMO, each premium grade component is totally useless if the room itself (the most important component) is not even right.
The problem with getting room acoustics correct is that audio has a small element of voodoo to it and of course science and subjection.
I vastly improved the acoustics of my small listening room by building limp membrane sealed bass traps.
Meters man! Ok, so I have to divide by three... aaaah too much math.... I just woke up.....
Agreed. And no, it's worse than that because there's another dimension involved. A square meter is between 10 and 11 sq ft square feet.
Divide?
I know this is subjective but I wanna get some opinions anyway. What's preferable and why?
Great preamp with subpar speakers
Or
Great speakers with subpar preamp
Appreciate your feedback
If you're getting feedback then there is something wrong with the setup ;-)
how long's a piece of string?
@0:53
Not sure what you qualify as "bigger" speakers?
"Six inch woofers as maximum"?
Vandersteen's line, starting with the Quatro, have larger than six inch woofers, and are adjustable to compensate for room acoustics.
The Quatros have 8" woofers.
The higher end models have 12" woofers.
Yes, these speakers are expensive. However, at their given price points, they compete with speakers that are double, or more, in price.
So I am just throwing this out there, because you can have your cake and eat it, too. You can have your deep bass (especially with the 12" woofer models), even if your room is not large (albeit, you might not reap all of the bass if your room is too small -- but the bass will be well controlled).
What is that Triode amp behind you, Steve?
A Woo Audio headphone amp.
Thanks Steve..
I live in NYC and my listening room is 8 x 3 feet. I put a recliner on one end and 2 huge tower speaker on the other end spaced 1 inch apart. to my left is my integrated amp with my hand on the volume knob. It is awesome!!!! and I have calculated that this is the maximum room size for any audio system before your wife complains!!! (just joking of course)
Closet Audiophilliac?
;-D
Like in most aspects of life... size matters
I have a 3200 watt 18" yorkville subwoofer in my 10'x10' room. Rocks my world lol. Also have a 7.2 setup
I prefer headphones then there's no arguments
I like my Grado RS2e's, but they're quaint in comparison to my speaker setup.
Headphones
Disagree massive horns work great in small to med rooms far better than monitors on stands
Would those 3 "down" geniuses identify themselves?!
They are the three who think all audiophiles are over privileged snobs. Maybe we should downvote their favourite channels. :^D