I’m digging my new Klipsch RP 600M bookshelf speakers in my 9’x9’ room. No issues with bass problems. I have them pulled out 14 inches from the back of the speaker to the rear wall. Everything sounds just like Steve described in his speaker of the year review, and like him, I’m frequently blown away by the dynamic and visceral sound I hear from both cd’s and vinyl. I’ve been an audiophile since the mid 70’s, and have owned everything from the AR9 to Bob Carver’s Amazing Loudspeakers, various B&W speakers, even for a time the Bose 901 Series 6. But as much as I enjoyed my different systems over the years, the Klipsch paired with my NAD C-368 integrated and a NAD C568 CD player combined have given me a big sense of fun and rediscovery of so much of my music. Thanks for the tip Steve.
Bookshelf speakers plus subwoofers plus high/low pass filters and level adjustments give me well controlled bass down to 20-25 Hz and the room node at 35 Hz is under control. I really appreciate the ability to tune the subs to the system and not be struck with an inflexible full range speaker. However, low frequency room correction by DSP must be the ultimate solution for fine tuning.
10+ pairs later to finally get the right speakers for our master bedroom. (Never enough bass) Turns out older Paradigm Studio 7's are magical sounding. Signal level wise, I tend to listen at .1 to 1 watt. Maybe speaker manufactures should consider putting "optimum room size" info in their marketing literature like they do with power ratings.
I was blow away with the improvement after running Dirac Live on my Emotiva XPA-1. Couldn't believe it was the same speakers and equipment. Same great results in a 20'x12' room with 12" ceilings as in a 30'x42' room with 19' ceilings.
Good point I myself have come across other people who have way too much bigger speakers for the rooms they are placed in. But there is a issue expecially for those who have a decent budget and wants around £1000-2000 speakers but even quite a few stand mounted speakers can be to large for layout of smaller rooms. Great video as always 👍
Thanks Steve. I use dual REL subs in both rooms. Bass is the foundation of music: no fidelity without it! Dynaudio recommended 1/5th speaker placement, DSPeaker room correction works well to get rid of 30& 60hz room modes. Bass is flat to below 20hz in one room: I switch it off for some recordings ;
I have a relatively small listening room for what I consider to be a fairly decent vinyl based system: older Linn Sondek LP 12 which has gone through numerous clinics and upgrades (Lingo, Cirkus, etc.), Acurus P10, Aragon 18K, Linn LK85. Now we get to the speaker issue and I totally agree with Steve. I had been using a pair of slightly modified Large Advents A3 circa 1978. The bass simply overpowered the room. A friend suggested I replace with a pair of modified Infinity Reference One speakers that I had replaced the original rotted Infinity woofers with perfect SEAS replacements. They always seemed a bit bass shy in the larger room I had been using them in and found them to be the perfect replacement in the smaller room. Basically went from a 9 1/2 woofer to a 5 1/2 and also less efficient.
I adore this man. Steve ive always said you are the best. I agree, my celestian classics are beautiful two way book shelves and they are truly a great old set of speakers. In a small space they can not be matched for acoustic recordings.......very revealing and very musical......and the bass when positioned well can be very nice. Not strong but more then enough.
I own a pair of Klipsch RB-61 iis and I also recently moved from a rather small to a large room. I never had a real issue with too much bass in the small room, but now that I am in a large room the increase in clarity is quite surprising. But, the bass seems a little lacking. It’s present, but doesn’t seem to be really there.
We've all heard incredible bass in (small by comparison) cars. A wave length of 18' is required to reproduce an unbroken phase coherent tone of 60Hz. That doesn't mean small rooms can't reproduce low frequencies. It just means that the wave length has got to bounce back and forth several times to reproduce it.
My room is about 20x14ft. The weird thing is that my Dali Menuet on stands created an uncontrollable bass due to the tile floor (with carpet). Now I got Wilson Watt Puppies and there isn't any issue with bass or any other things worth mentioning. At audio shows there are many demonstrations in small hotel rooms and they can sound amazingly good.
i got basically a 8 feet cube of a room, no concrete tho. a 2.1 system is the best solution for that, one of the best solution for any room thinking about it, other than betting bookshelf size speakers and subwoofer you can control, the room still is a big problem. i solved most of it by getting sealed subwoofer and plug the ports of the bookshelf speakers, nothing makes the problem worse than ported speakers and ports or passive radiators on subwoofers. i use a lot of sound absorption in my room also and i sit in the middle of the room.
I have Tannoy 15” DC speakers in my room, which is almost square at 4 x 4.3m. I have a problem around 80Hz but deeper bass us fine. I had much worse issues with B&W speakers before that as they were really boomy. Bass traps have helped a huge amount but am currently looking for Helm Holtz resonators tuned to the problem frequency. Although my Tannoys are larger they work effortlessly to produce beautiful deep and controlled bass - I couldn't imagine going back to tiny 5 or 6” bass speakers now lol.
Feel like thats exactly where I am with my current tower speakers, will be demoing some Harbeth P3ESR's and C7ES3 soon. I hope the smaller speaker can satisfy my musical tastes in my room.
I have some HUGE 90lb each SP5000 Sansui speakers. I heard they were made by JBL. They were brought to the USA by Vietnam vets who bought them at the PX in the early 1970s. I've just brought them to my retirement home, a 650 sq ft. trailer in Arizona. The trailer is rather open but the room they sit in is about 11' x 17' and full of furniture, carpeting and 'popcorn' ceiling texture. I can see everyone reading this just cringing already. Well, soon I'll hook up the Sansui AU-717 and I'll let you know how it sounds.
Acoustic treatment, and rule of third is the answer for big speakers in a small room. I have Infinity kappa 9 Santos in a 20 x 16ft room, i also use a SVS 16 Ultra to help in the low end. All 4 walls, floor and ceiling are 100% treated, so the room sounds dead if you clap your hand or speak. I also use the rule of third, speakers are around 33% out from the back wall, and my listening position is almost a third out from the back wall. My listening position is raised so that my ears are level with the midrange and tweeters.
In smaller rooms I finally prefer sealed compact box speakers. Sealed compact type are great when we want to listen , not to dump resonance with room because they definitely slope in low range securing little amplified bass. . My last time hunted speakers work with room 22 meters sq , are 20" by 7" by 12" (HxWxD) and perfectly produce 30 Hz which is room resonance at wide dimension. This bass is excellent and not interfering in higher range, good combining with rest. Another secret is to secure different environment for both speakers. one in corner and second not "in" but "on" corner of L shape. . Actually room has even longest dimension 8 meters and it would be useful for 20 Hz but with those speakers no heard.
Great topic and one that I don't think get discussed enough. WHERE a speaker is going to be listened to is just as important, or maybe even more important, than all of the other considerations concerning speakers. Consider what I like to call the "headphone effect." If you listen to that tiny driver from just an inch away from your ear (the room) you only hear very tinny sound. Put them on so they are close to your ear (make the room smaller) and you suddenly have extremely high fidelity. The reverse is also true. Get too close to even a modest sized speaker and it sounds awful but listen just a few feet away and, like magic, the fidelity returns. I am becoming more and more convinced that for most of us, we would be better served with quality bookshelves and that even moderately sized towers might be too much. Matching speakers to a room is almost a lost art these days and I'm not sure it gets the consideration it deserves. In the high-end, esoteric audiophile world in which you live, yours is very often a voice of reason. I appreciate that very much.
I have a set of the GoldenEar Triton 2+ (which curiously, I’ve never heard you mention) and they have built in active subwoofers and their output is adjustable so they can pretty much be placed almost anywhere in almost any shaped room. Sandy Gross has espoused that philosophy for many years and definitely nailed it with his Triton series of speakers. Have you heard them and if so what do you think?
I have twin 15 inch subs in my music room , its 12 ft square and the bass is perfectly set for my music taste , besides that i run a pair of dail 7´s and a pair of beolab 5´s , plus a pair of super tweeters , this gives my room a full vocal and noise levels which i have full tone control over through the mixer which is beside my chair , everything else has to be done standing up
I'm going to be moving into a trailer/rv in the near future, just downsized to Klipsch RP-150m speakers. Will need a small sub to supplement the bass, but I think it should work. Going from Polk SDA-2s is a big change.
Hi Steve, Thanks for this. I've definitely had large bookshelf speakers in small rooms. I had a set of Klipsch SB-3 with 8" woofers in really tight sun room. Now that I have a bigger house, of course I no longer have those. Right now just the Dayton Audio B652 Air (based on your recommendation). Could you give us your definition of a small, medium and large listening room (just rough dimensions) so I can figure out what size mine would be?
If your speakers are producing too much bass for the room then step one is get them away from walls and corners. Then if they are ported try cutting out foam bungs to fit the ports. I used foam rings in the ports of my Proacs for a few years very successfully. You need to experiment with the amount and density of foam so you are only affecting the bass and not other frequencies. If you are into computer audio and use Roon there is a brilliant Parametric equalizer that you can use to set up filter presets at the problem frequencies. Worked for me.
I have a question Steve, What type of book shelf speaker would be more suitable for a 12X24 room ? I'm using my NAD 7155 receiver on a pair of Sony SS MB 150 H and the sound carries through the entire apartment and also disturbing my neighbors. They're mounted on a floor stand 4 feet from the wall and 4 feet from the floor, but the sound still leaks out into other rooms.
I have a tiny room with tiny speakers (Biggest driver is 4"). In any other room, there's zero bass. There's a little bit in my room but I could still bare to get bigger speakers. My biggest problem comes down to when I listen to New Wave with my Audio-Technica AT-120eB phono cartridge over my Klipsch R14M speakers. My system gets as bright as the sun!
In addition to moving the speakers and the chair away from the walls, a couple 2'x4'x4" bass traps can work wonders for fixing the unevenness of the low end that EQ cannot easily fix, and it will sound better in other parts of the room besides the listening position.
Do you think your solution including the bass traps is sufficient though? I would ideally like to drop some 3-way floorstanding ATC SCM 40As into a 9' x 9' room but recognise it is quite the challenge.
I have a old pair of infinity irs beta speakers in a small room 6 mtr long and and a little over 4 mtr wide i just turn the base down on the servo control don't play them to loud and they image actually not to bad considering there in a room to small for these speakers, cheers!
Greetings! Im planning to buy a a bookshelf speakers w/ 1" tweeter and 6.5" woofer. Is it too big for a 8 ft x 6 ft room. Will be grateful to hear from you sir. Peace and God bless!
Steve, What do you think of the older vintage Pioneer HPM 100 speakers... and what size room do you think these should be in, right now there in a Living room location with a lot of soft furniture...What do you think? By the way great videos and reviews ! Keith
the issue is not the size, it's the sound. i used to have a 12" sub in my room (it's like 10 sqr m-ish room) it was fine. now i have like 5" sub or something in the same room, it's not a good sub the driver is not even a subwoofer driver but it sounds good. so good that i never have to crank the volume up to get my head banging because its sound pleases me enough. what pleases your ears is not the volume or the size, it's the sound. if it doesn't sound good, no matter how big or how loud, it's just never enough... and too much at the same time.
My room floor area is about 11 square meters so probably not ideal for a pair of B &W 803D’s and a REL T9i, all powered by hefty Musical Fidelity pre and power amps. My solution was to place the speakers on IsoAcoustics Gaia II speaker feet. Let’s just say, without getting into all that audiophile nonsense jargon, it just sorted everything out. My 3D soundstage was and still is absolutely sublime. All instruments and music sounds truthful and convincing. There was me saying I wouldn’t talk audiophile.
Read the manual for speakers. My old Rega Kyte speakers had a manual that described placement. And that helped. Those speakers should be close to the wall, however. They were built like bookshelf speakers. I put them on atacama sand filled stands anyway. That helped.
I have a Jensen subwoofer paired up with a pair of Sherwood bookshelf speakers in a small bedroom hooked up to a Yamaha 7.1ch AV receiver. The bookshelf speakers were not a good choice, as the cabinet build isn’t very solid with a hollow sound when you knock on them. You can hear the hollow bass when playing music with lots of bass. The subwoofer is probably way too much for this room because I can actually hear more bass in other parts of the house than what I hear sitting directly in front of it.
I was thinking on speakers that are bit too big for small room with a concrete basement just tone down the bass to the speakers in a adjust the bass to the subwoofer at a lower level would that work good that's what I'm thinking of I got Polk Audio Tower speakers at the front and Klipsch f200 and they both Porsche about 125 watts per Channel speaker so I'm looking to put sound Acoustics on the ceilings and a little bit on the walls I hope that helps
A piano on the lower keys are distorted and rarely played. All you need in speakers is strong mids. LPs&tubes have strong mids. Forget about a subwoofer. A big speaker needs a sub. Big speakers don't have loud mids or loud bass. Bid speakers sound dull. Very small bookshelfs are the best. Small bookshelfs have louder mids than big speakers, so that you don't need a sub. I have speakers with a 4 inch woofer that sounds big. Up to a point, a smaller woofer is more clear than a bigger woofer. A first order or no crossover is best. Vandersteen speakers have a first order crossover & they aren't high in price. A first order crossover is simpler & that makes music more clear. You may have slightly less bass. Here is what to look for in bass. Loud, deep, & clearness. Its hard to get all 3. Cheap subs volume goes down more at the lower frequencies.
Hi Steve - I need your advice on Pioneer SP-EFS73 (best reviewed speakers by you). I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503 receiver so I'm sure this will drive EFS73 4ohm speakers perfectly or not. Im planning to buy vintage amp like Adcom GFA-555 or similar to run these speaker. What's your suggestion? and also is adcom GFA-555 capable of running power hungry speakers like ELAC Uni-fi UF5 also without any issues??
The answer to that equation is just simply turn down the bass or get an eq and adjust to your liking. Never too much bass in my opinion, just gotta get more mids and highs to match the lows!
Steve - Need your advise on receiver for Pioneer SP-EFS73 speakers. I have Pioneer Elite VSX-503 receiver which is capable of running 4ohm speakers. Is this sufficient or I need to buy any sparate amp? And also suggest me best center will match with these speakers
So.. i got a question. I'm about to buy a Pioneer A-09 which "supposedly" is a pure Class-A amp, delivering 35watts 8 Ohm. But this amp only draws 220watts, i would expect a powerful amp of that class to draw more. On the subject of speakers. I find floorstanding speakers with 2 or more 6" woofers and midrange to be more then enough for most rooms. When i lived at home i spent way too much money buying all sorts of 12" (to my parents dismay), expecting a better sound.. but it never delivered anything better. My 8" 3way technics always sounded better.. much better. I then moved out and built myself a pair of speakers with Gamma1231 woofers, and altho they sounded good in my huge open appartment, they were easily outclassed by the floorstanding 3way speakers i built later that weighed 70kilos each , housing a single Peerless 8" woofer. So now whenever i'm looking at new speakers, 6" is my goal.. i'm not interested in anything larger.
Yes I actually went a step too far with a pair of Legacy Focus SE speakers in my 15x25 living room. They have dual 12" woofers, and I can only put large speakers about 12 inches from the back wall before things look weird. The Focus is an amazing speaker, but as the name claims, they do FOCUS the sound with limited vertical dispersion. In the sweet spot on my sofa, they were about the best sound I've ever heard.... but around the room or in the dining area, they sounded dark and too bass heavy. Maybe this was more of a dispersion/directivity issue, but yes they did have too much bass for my setup. The Legacy Signature model, with dual 10's would have been the wiser choice. I did not keep the Focus's very long.
CARPET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BOOKCASE ON BACK WALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those two things can solve a LOT of the problem, so you can enjoy the BIG speakers you purchased. To a point BIGGER IS BETTER, considering the midrange and upper range!
My current room is about like your Manhattan room, concrete, 11.5x17.25x8.5 feet. Not a good room size... The big room mode is 34hz, a horride room mode to have. Room modes do not go away, it matters not how load or soft the music, it matters not how big or small the speaker. What does matter is how low the speaker plays, if your speaker hits -6db at 80hz you will not have much issue with room modes below that... have a speaker that plays down to 20hz and below and you will fight the room modes for the rest of your life.... If I play just my mains, I have a 26.5 db peak to trough room mode from 34 hz to 45 hz. But I have a subwoofer that with an absurd amount of effort in placement and tuning in order to counter the room mode and the mains, I have +/- 5 db from 25 to 115 hz. That is one way to deal with it, the other is to spend north of 10k for acousticfileds diaphragmatic absorbers.... Regardless of any and all variables, the only way to great sound at home is going to be through lottery winner level of luck to get a magic room, or a ton of acoustic treatment deployed in a painstakingly determined manner and probably/maybe a subwoofer or 2 or 3.... It is so far from easy it ain't funny, but the level of excellence one can take a good set of gear it astonishing.
One of the biggest disadvantages of speakers is that even the smallest of audio equipment takes anywhere from 25 to 35% of space of the room, MINIMUM. Then of course on the other hand, there people trying to get 1.2k + W per channel and speakers the size of ALTEC A7 Voice of the Theater into a 11 ‘ x 18‘ room. But I realize it’s not sexy at all to treat the room first (expensive) knowing a certain speaker is going to be used. So all of that is for a listening sweet spot of approximately 6 feet wide horizontally by maybe what 3 to 5 feet high vertically when seated ?
I love Epos. I have a pair of es11 in my bedroom. Es11 is superior to the es14 though. Funny thing is every now and then you can buy those for around 100 euro.
hi,good video,if you mean a sort of boominess sort of to much bass,60 cm by 60 cm chinese marbel 4 cm thick, garden tiles,40 euros each,at most big garden centers do the trick ,well worked for me and for my subs,keep up the good work.i dont have a bass or treble control.
A better definition of what is small and big interms of room size and speaker will help. This definition is hard to understand. Can u make a video to clear this aspect.
I guess I won't be replacing my RP-600M2s in my bedroom/HT then - roughly 13'x16' with speakers on the wide walls If I think I need more or less bass, I can always adjust my subwoofer volume (stacked 12" and 10" due to furniture placement issues) in a 7.2.4 system. Klipsch had a good deal on reconditioned RP-6000s. PS if/when I DO eventually replace my L/R speakers, should I replace my center channel with the same manufacturer at the same time?
That black box.. $2k? Before going that route, consider trying some 2'x4'x4" Owens Corning 703, some nice fabric to cover it, and some contact cement. Total cost would be about $100 for 3 panels and a couple hours of time. It made a huge improvement in my room.
Start with the rule of thirds and then make minor adjustments from there. I fiddled and fiddled, found the best spot, measured and found everything almost exactly at 1/3. Save yourself time and effort.
Could anyone tell me please approximately what is small / medium/ large size room ? Example- small - 10x10 feet Medium - 15x15 feet Large - 20x20 feet Thanks 🙏
Hey hey hey: Peter Snell came over one night???? Steve, this alone is crazy..!!! One of the biggest legends ever came over one night??? Man, please let us know more bout this friendship.. Cheers
Hi Steve, my room is actually aprox 11x18 , it is not treated and has lots of reflections. Are the maggies .7 a forgiving speaker in that aspect? Or can you recommend any other speaker that is forgiving of room treatment ?
Nearfield listening, 6 feet or less reduces the problems from reflections. If you can place the .7s three feet away from the wall, they might be the way to go.
in small rooms larger is better, the law of directivity says so. Linkwitz also states "When I hear an unfamiliar loudspeaker in an unfamiliar room and it does not sound right, then I look for faults in the loudspeaker's design and placement long before I blame the room..."
my Dunlavy Athena/Aletha turned out to sound better(WAY BETTER) than the B&W DM 17's in the same room, and I don't think the B&W's sound bad. Fully treated 11 x 17 room.
I have high-frequency attenuators on large theater speakers and 5-band equalizer (+- 10 db) built-into a large Fisher receiver, plus a medium-large room (270 sq.ft.) Best sound I've ever heard, short of attending a live performance and I've been enjoying recorded music at home since 1940. That's a long time. Fortunately (or not!), my hearing is less acute now, saving me all that money chasing an elusive dream. My advice is to buy the best you can while you are young, while you can enjoy that advantage of high-end resolution. Wait until 50 and it's the Law of Diminishing Returns..an expensive ego-trip.
This is seriously under-estimated because everyone gets seduced by big ass speakers. So did I when I put towers in my listening room and oh my god the contortions to get it to sound right. And almost off hand I bought really diminutive bookshelf speakers for my open plan dining area. About 3 times the size of the listening room and they fill the space with authority and control. Sure on paper the bass doesn't go as deep but IRL what bass there is is so fast and articulate and well controlled you mostly won't miss it. The number of times people have been startled by the sound in there (it was just intended for background music while entertaining but I often use it to fill the whole house) and they glance around and ignore the little bookshelves even though they see them. They're looking for visual confirmation of what their ears are telling them, large standmounts at least.
A good friend of mine has way too many speakers and gave me a pair of VMPS Super Tower R’s. I put em in my approximately 15’ x 12’ room, and nope! Holy hell were these things too much! So, they’re now sitting in my garage waiting to be sold once the weather gets better in New England. Too bad, cuz I can tell they’re nice spkrs, but they also need some work. Oh, well...
Yes, I am very aware of this. The garage I’m speaking of is more a part of the house downtasirs, and is insulated and stays at a pretty contant temp of around 60 degrees or so. They are safe. I’d never put such nice spkrs out in the cold or heat.
Oh, man. I know that all too well. There’s nothing worse than going to check out what you think are going to be a nice pair of vintage speakers only to find mold on the cones.
Some speakers do NOT sound good away from the rear wall like Sonabs, Larsens, Klipschorns, Cornwalls, Guru's etc.. they are cleverly designed to stand right up where the wall is
I have small speakers , 5 inch woofer. Its my choice couse my room is small and i listen in near Field. Many times i read on audio forums that people tend to choose big towers over monitors even when room is small. To many out there big BASSS is everything! And simply putting big towers they will never have good stereo imiging and spacious sound.
I bought bookshelves a few years ago because I had a small room. Now I've just moved to another house last weekend, where I have a bigger room. Still need to set up my system. Will see how those speakers manage over here to decide whether or not to replace them for floorstanding speakers.
@@CreateTimeToListen That's what happened to me. I had two great systems, in two small rooms in a condo (bedroom and living room). systems sounded excellent - perfect fit for those rooms (small, but high quality speakers and amps). Moved to an apartment with a larger living room and those speakers get a bit 'lost' in the room, unfortunately. I don't want to use a sub, but it's going to be expensive to get big speakers with the type of quality low bass I'm looking for to fill the room.
@@BadMonkeyFinger_Audio I do have a subwoofer with a built-in amplifier, but somehow I can't really manage to get the sound to my speakers through my subwoofer. Tried to connect it with the pre-out on my amplifier to the high level input on the sub. But I only get bass, the speakers themselves don't seem to get the sound from that amplifier like they should. Don't know what I do wrong there.
Hey Steve, so we're moving house and what you said has frightened me some.. my new listening room is W14' X L14' X H9'... All concrete, solid construction, one large window about the size of a 65" TV and the entrance door. Do I put my towers in the living room and get smaller speakers and room treatment for the new Listening room? Or find another space..because I'm not interested in finding "Audio Hell" ☹️
Mark, put your towers in your new man cave and don't stress. It's ALL about the placement. This is YOUR listening room so put the speakers off the corners and away from the walls with your cabinet between. Just don't shove them into the corners or too close to the back wall. Create a combo "near field" and reflective effect. Room treatment? Maybe a carpet on the floor?
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Thanks Steve, the towers have 6.5" woofers and I have 2 10" subs, so I'll place smaller speakers and the sub, along with treatments and play with the balance, speaker swap and treatments and see. Thanks for the support!
@@markwilson0077 I have a very reflective room and I like it based on my set up. It's a pretty big space so probably would be an echo chamber were it a smaller room. With the two subs I'd try them right on the back wall with the towers directly in front of them. I have my "other" system with KEF LS50 set about 3 ft off the wall and two REL 8" T5 on the wall. Well that's it you are welcome and best wishes...
Steve, I am going to assume that the vast majority of your subscribers have tone controls on their pre-amps / receivers. So I predict a flurry of comments about turning down the bass knob / lever as a simple and free solution. A better solution would be 1) using speakers that are suited to the size of the room, and 2) room treatments (carpeting and/or professionally designed panels which double as aesthetically pleasing). But I am assuming that most folks will not spring for an expensive and time consuming #2 solution, when they have a simple and free bass knob option (which is not a solution, as tone controls adversely affects sound quality).
Big impact to bass volume has positioning bass speaker/port between ceiling and floor. Usually it is about 10-11" and standing wave is 5 meters - 60 Hz which is affecting whole low range. . Due to different placing of ports and speakers it cannot be usually no accurate.
Like most people, my stereo equipment is the living room. The living room contains sofa, loveseat (mini sofa), end tables, lamps, recliner, hutch (with stuff on it), a couple of wood chairs (extra for the dinning room table) and several framed pics on the walls. Lets not forget the front door and the coat closet door. I saved my money for many, many years and spent thousands. I now enjoy a set of JBL 4365's, they incorporate a 15" woofer. My living room is far, far from a perfect listening room, but that's all I've have and I don't worry about it. I just spin an LP or CD and enjoy what I have. I believe the great Charlie Chan said, "It is, what it is"
I'd rather have a problem with too much bass than not have enough. Speakers that do really well without the need of a subwoofer is what I'm looking for.
You said "bass definition", that is a good phrase that should be used more often. I see stupid sub woofer videos about huge subs that shake a room, but they don't mention the sound quality. You may hear people say listen to that airplane, no I want to hear a bass guitar clear and precise. Every time someone talks about bass they should talk about definition.
@poserwannabe Thanks man🙏 It’s great that people like yourself take time to help. I think good ‘ol Steve is busy trying to keep his contributors happy, which is cool. As they say money talks 😊 I’ve asked quatro tempo if impedance marching from cartridge to phono stage really matters on the vids about sound quality and not one reply. Would you know? I mean it must do something but is it worth chasing with hard earned? To reference I’ve read that although an mmc carts claim an impedance of 47kohms for commercial reasons the cartridge may actually display fuller musicality at say 66k ohms. 🤙🏽
@@EddyTeetree Typically it will be plug and play for almost all mmc because they are built around the industry standard 47k ohm load. mcc on the other hand need a closer look. The additional preamp stage should be 5-10 times higher than the source, cheers 🍻 BTW- I have always felt that proper arm calibration is the most important aspect. Think about it, if the head is not properly aligned, or maybe pushing harder towards the center of the disk, that's going to create bigger problems. Isolation is an issue I address with a concrete paver from the hardware store or a chunk of granite from the countertop people, good luck and have fun !!!
Yeah, I have a set of Altec Valencia 846A I have in a room that is 13 x 16 foot. Art Dudley had a set of these he reviewed and said you need to be at least 12 feet from the speakers for the horns to "gel". I purchased them because they are high efficiency and 16 ohms for my Heathkit W-5M monoblock pair. I was going to sell them because the room is too small for them to sound right. The only high efficiency small speakers I can think of are some Coral Beta 8 full range which might work better. Klipsch Heresy don't have enough low bass for my taste. Suggestions?
@zulumax1 did you consider the inverted PA as a viable contender? I have seen the spec sheet and it just solidify's my findings of non professional type testing. You know "driver dogfighting" only a very few go to top driver school, mess up just this much and you know what that means?
@@SJMessinwithBoats At least 40-50hz that is about where the Altecs roll off. Adequate for 90% of recorded music. The Heresy rolls off at 60hz which sounds like it needs a sub. My main setup has Quad 22L towers and remote controlled 12" sub which kicks in under 30hz, that system will produce anything on recording up to 100db SPL. If I want to rock out I will turn on my Sansui integrated amp hooked up to Speakerlab 4's which uses the early Klipsch style compression horn tweeter and a sealed acoustic suspension rubber surround 12" woofer which has a long excursion design and 18hz free air resonance, 93db/1 watt. Deep deep bass and accurate bass. I was thinking of Frankenstiening the midrange in them to the Forte mid driver, but that thought was only brief. The mid it has is a rubber surround mid that goes to 500hz, and I don't think a mid size horn can go that low. The Forte III would be an option, but they need room to breathe behind them, Cornwalls too big too. That is why I would consider the ZU speakers like the Druid, but I have to research more on those. My friend has the ZU Definition mk III, those are the ultimate with 500 watts/channel into eight 12" rear firing subs, four front facing 12" woofer/mid-bass/midrange, and two compression horns. Very cool, but those are like unlimited clarity and SPL combined. Is that too much ramble for a simple question?
Little speakers are like a little dick -- not impressive to it's intended target and lacking in impact. The only people who think size does not matter are those that don't have it!
Miika Venäläinen yes there are few ways to address this issue speaker isolators moving speakers to 1/5 of room length measured from front of speakers to front wall and 1/3 to 1/4 of width from side walls also just some thoughts 🤗
@@chrisvinicombe9947 that's maybe too much for the house.....but my car is almost there. The car does have amazing SQ too, not just bass. Custom pods, Hertz, class AB POWER, premier with Burr browns.... I just imagine this Steve guy sipping a soy latte, and thinking to himself that the 5.25" woofers he's got turned up to a whopping 70 decibels are really powerfully conveying the esoteric aether spirit of a Pastorius fart accidentally recorded and how it is so real he can almost smell it.....wowwwww mannnnn.
EDM-I have JBL livesound equipment in my small studio. Studio Genelec- JBL Studio ...it depends what mood and music. Everything has a purpose and place. I don't care about critical listening when I need sheer output.
As someone who is new to all this audio stuff (and trying hard to figure it out), I'd like to say that I appreciate these videos. Thanks, Steve!
I’m digging my new Klipsch RP 600M bookshelf speakers in my 9’x9’ room. No issues with bass problems. I have them pulled out 14 inches from the back of the speaker to the rear wall.
Everything sounds just like Steve described in his speaker of the year review, and like him, I’m frequently blown away by the dynamic and visceral sound I hear from both cd’s and vinyl.
I’ve been an audiophile since the mid 70’s, and have owned everything from the AR9 to Bob Carver’s Amazing Loudspeakers, various B&W speakers, even for a time the Bose 901 Series 6.
But as much as I enjoyed my different systems over the years, the Klipsch paired with my NAD C-368 integrated and a NAD C568 CD player combined have given me a big sense of fun and rediscovery of so much of my music.
Thanks for the tip Steve.
I'm loving my new Klipsch Heresy iiis in my 11 x 16 living room - thanks for your high rec of them 👍
Great!
Bookshelf speakers plus subwoofers plus high/low pass filters and level adjustments give me well controlled bass down to 20-25 Hz and the room node at 35 Hz is under control. I really appreciate the ability to tune the subs to the system and not be struck with an inflexible full range speaker. However, low frequency room correction by DSP must be the ultimate solution for fine tuning.
No
My room is too small for my speakers ;)
That's what I was going to say 🤣👍
Just knock thru 😀
10+ pairs later to finally get the right speakers for our master bedroom. (Never enough bass) Turns out older Paradigm Studio 7's are magical sounding. Signal level wise, I tend to listen at .1 to 1 watt. Maybe speaker manufactures should consider putting "optimum room size" info in their marketing literature like they do with power ratings.
DSP room correction can work wonders here. Too bad so many audiophiles falsely believe it "ruins" the resulting sound.
I was blow away with the improvement after running Dirac Live on my Emotiva XPA-1. Couldn't believe it was the same speakers and equipment. Same great results in a 20'x12' room with 12" ceilings as in a 30'x42' room with 19' ceilings.
Good point I myself have come across other people who have way too much bigger speakers for the rooms they are placed in. But there is a issue expecially for those who have a decent budget and wants around £1000-2000 speakers but even quite a few stand mounted speakers can be to large for layout of smaller rooms. Great video as always 👍
Wow. Peter Snell himself helping your Type A set up. Wow. I lived at 70th and Columbus... ...and had Snell Type Cis in that place.
Thanks Steve.
I use dual REL subs in both rooms. Bass is the foundation of music: no fidelity without it!
Dynaudio recommended 1/5th speaker placement, DSPeaker room correction works well to get rid of 30& 60hz room modes. Bass is flat to below 20hz in one room: I switch it off for some recordings ;
I have a relatively small listening room for what I consider to be a fairly decent vinyl based system: older Linn Sondek LP 12 which has gone through numerous clinics and upgrades (Lingo, Cirkus, etc.), Acurus P10, Aragon 18K, Linn LK85. Now we get to the speaker issue and I totally agree with Steve. I had been using a pair of slightly modified Large Advents A3 circa 1978. The bass simply overpowered the room. A friend suggested I replace with a pair of modified Infinity Reference One speakers that I had replaced the original rotted Infinity woofers with perfect SEAS replacements. They always seemed a bit bass shy in the larger room I had been using them in and found them to be the perfect replacement in the smaller room. Basically went from a 9 1/2 woofer to a 5 1/2 and also less efficient.
I adore this man. Steve ive always said you are the best.
I agree, my celestian classics are beautiful two way book shelves and they are truly a great old set of speakers. In a small space they can not be matched for acoustic recordings.......very revealing and very musical......and the bass when positioned well can be very nice. Not strong but more then enough.
I have 4 sets of speakers in my living room. Getting crowded but I love it. They all sound different and wonderful.
I own a pair of Klipsch RB-61 iis and I also recently moved from a rather small to a large room. I never had a real issue with too much bass in the small room, but now that I am in a large room the increase in clarity is quite surprising. But, the bass seems a little lacking. It’s present, but doesn’t seem to be really there.
We've all heard incredible bass in (small by comparison) cars.
A wave length of 18' is required to reproduce an unbroken phase coherent tone of 60Hz.
That doesn't mean small rooms can't reproduce low frequencies. It just means that the wave length has got to bounce back and forth several times to reproduce it.
My room is about 20x14ft.
The weird thing is that my Dali Menuet on stands created an uncontrollable bass due to the tile floor (with carpet).
Now I got Wilson Watt Puppies and there isn't any issue with bass or any other things worth mentioning.
At audio shows there are many demonstrations in small hotel rooms and they can sound amazingly good.
i got basically a 8 feet cube of a room, no concrete tho. a 2.1 system is the best solution for that, one of the best solution for any room thinking about it, other than betting bookshelf size speakers and subwoofer you can control, the room still is a big problem. i solved most of it by getting sealed subwoofer and plug the ports of the bookshelf speakers, nothing makes the problem worse than ported speakers and ports or passive radiators on subwoofers.
i use a lot of sound absorption in my room also and i sit in the middle of the room.
I have Tannoy 15” DC speakers in my room, which is almost square at 4 x 4.3m. I have a problem around 80Hz but deeper bass us fine. I had much worse issues with B&W speakers before that as they were really boomy. Bass traps have helped a huge amount but am currently looking for Helm Holtz resonators tuned to the problem frequency. Although my Tannoys are larger they work effortlessly to produce beautiful deep and controlled bass - I couldn't imagine going back to tiny 5 or 6” bass speakers now lol.
Feel like thats exactly where I am with my current tower speakers, will be demoing some Harbeth P3ESR's and C7ES3 soon. I hope the smaller speaker can satisfy my musical tastes in my room.
I have some HUGE 90lb each SP5000 Sansui speakers. I heard they were made by JBL. They were brought to the USA by Vietnam vets who bought them at the PX in the early 1970s. I've just brought them to my retirement home, a 650 sq ft. trailer in Arizona. The trailer is rather open but the room they sit in is about 11' x 17' and full of furniture, carpeting and 'popcorn' ceiling texture. I can see everyone reading this just cringing already. Well, soon I'll hook up the Sansui AU-717 and I'll let you know how it sounds.
I have RF7 IIs in a room where I sit 7’ or 8’ away from the speakers with a 9’ ceiling. I feel the speakers work well in my space.
Acoustic treatment, and rule of third is the answer for big speakers in a small room. I have Infinity kappa 9 Santos in a 20 x 16ft room, i also use a SVS 16 Ultra to help in the low end. All 4 walls, floor and ceiling are 100% treated, so the room sounds dead if you clap your hand or speak. I also use the rule of third, speakers are around 33% out from the back wall, and my listening position is almost a third out from the back wall. My listening position is raised so that my ears are level with the midrange and tweeters.
In smaller rooms I finally prefer sealed compact box speakers. Sealed compact type are great when we want to listen , not to dump resonance with room because they definitely slope in low range securing little amplified bass. . My last time hunted speakers work with room 22 meters sq , are 20" by 7" by 12" (HxWxD) and perfectly produce 30 Hz which is room resonance at wide dimension. This bass is excellent and not interfering in higher range, good combining with rest. Another secret is to secure different environment for both speakers. one in corner and second not "in" but "on" corner of L shape. . Actually room has even longest dimension 8 meters and it would be useful for 20 Hz but with those speakers no heard.
Great topic and one that I don't think get discussed enough. WHERE a speaker is going to be listened to is just as important, or maybe even more important, than all of the other considerations concerning speakers. Consider what I like to call the "headphone effect." If you listen to that tiny driver from just an inch away from your ear (the room) you only hear very tinny sound. Put them on so they are close to your ear (make the room smaller) and you suddenly have extremely high fidelity. The reverse is also true. Get too close to even a modest sized speaker and it sounds awful but listen just a few feet away and, like magic, the fidelity returns. I am becoming more and more convinced that for most of us, we would be better served with quality bookshelves and that even moderately sized towers might be too much. Matching speakers to a room is almost a lost art these days and I'm not sure it gets the consideration it deserves.
In the high-end, esoteric audiophile world in which you live, yours is very often a voice of reason. I appreciate that very much.
I have a set of the GoldenEar Triton 2+ (which curiously, I’ve never heard you mention) and they have built in active subwoofers and their output is adjustable so they can pretty much be placed almost anywhere in almost any shaped room. Sandy Gross has espoused that philosophy for many years and definitely nailed it with his Triton series of speakers. Have you heard them and if so what do you think?
I have twin 15 inch subs in my music room , its 12 ft square and the bass is perfectly set for my music taste , besides that i run a pair of dail 7´s and a pair of beolab 5´s , plus a pair of super tweeters , this gives my room a full vocal and noise levels which i have full tone control over through the mixer which is beside my chair , everything else has to be done standing up
We usually use Equalizers , mixers , to correct issues to get it right .
This is sound balancing used all over the world ,
give it a shot ,
Hey friend you were featured the other day with Paul. you could chime in maybe?
@@SJMessinwithBoats What ?
wasn't that you that asked "what is hi end"
@@SJMessinwithBoats No mate , I am not a beginner
oops I thought that was you anyway your missing all the fun! LD Blake quit the game and deleted.
I'm going to be moving into a trailer/rv in the near future, just downsized to Klipsch RP-150m speakers. Will need a small sub to supplement the bass, but I think it should work. Going from Polk SDA-2s is a big change.
Hi Steve, Thanks for this. I've definitely had large bookshelf speakers in small rooms. I had a set of Klipsch SB-3 with 8" woofers in really tight sun room. Now that I have a bigger house, of course I no longer have those. Right now just the Dayton Audio B652 Air (based on your recommendation). Could you give us your definition of a small, medium and large listening room (just rough dimensions) so I can figure out what size mine would be?
Thanks for this Mr. Guttenberg. My listening room is 11.5' x 20' x 8' tall ... how do I measure up?
If your speakers are producing too much bass for the room then step one is get them away from walls and corners. Then if they are ported try cutting out foam bungs to fit the ports. I used foam rings in the ports of my Proacs for a few years very successfully. You need to experiment with the amount and density of foam so you are only affecting the bass and not other frequencies. If you are into computer audio and use Roon there is a brilliant Parametric equalizer that you can use to set up filter presets at the problem frequencies. Worked for me.
In belgium there was a recording studio ' swann' in the '80ies and the monitors were jbl 4350....in a not huge studio....but excellent acoustics..
I have a question Steve, What type of book shelf speaker would be more suitable for a 12X24 room ? I'm using my NAD 7155 receiver on a pair of Sony SS MB 150 H and the sound carries through the entire apartment and also disturbing my neighbors. They're mounted on a floor stand 4 feet from the wall and 4 feet from the floor, but the sound still leaks out into other rooms.
I have a tiny room with tiny speakers (Biggest driver is 4"). In any other room, there's zero bass. There's a little bit in my room but I could still bare to get bigger speakers. My biggest problem comes down to when I listen to New Wave with my Audio-Technica AT-120eB phono cartridge over my Klipsch R14M speakers. My system gets as bright as the sun!
In addition to moving the speakers and the chair away from the walls, a couple 2'x4'x4" bass traps can work wonders for fixing the unevenness of the low end that EQ cannot easily fix, and it will sound better in other parts of the room besides the listening position.
Do you think your solution including the bass traps is sufficient though? I would ideally like to drop some 3-way floorstanding ATC SCM 40As into a 9' x 9' room but recognise it is quite the challenge.
I have a old pair of infinity irs beta speakers in a small room 6 mtr long and and a little over 4 mtr wide i just turn the base down on the servo control don't play them to loud and they image actually not to bad considering there in a room to small for these speakers, cheers!
Greetings!
Im planning to buy a a bookshelf speakers w/ 1" tweeter and 6.5" woofer. Is it too big for a 8 ft x 6 ft room. Will be grateful to hear from you sir.
Peace and God bless!
Steve,
What do you think of the older vintage Pioneer HPM 100 speakers... and what size room do you think these should be in, right now there in a Living room location with a lot of soft furniture...What do you think? By the way great videos and reviews !
Keith
the issue is not the size, it's the sound. i used to have a 12" sub in my room (it's like 10 sqr m-ish room) it was fine. now i have like 5" sub or something in the same room, it's not a good sub the driver is not even a subwoofer driver but it sounds good. so good that i never have to crank the volume up to get my head banging because its sound pleases me enough. what pleases your ears is not the volume or the size, it's the sound. if it doesn't sound good, no matter how big or how loud, it's just never enough... and too much at the same time.
Yes, that's why I'm using a 1 octave eq.
My room floor area is about 11 square meters so probably not ideal for a pair of B &W 803D’s and a REL T9i, all powered by hefty Musical Fidelity pre and power amps. My solution was to place the speakers on IsoAcoustics Gaia II speaker feet. Let’s just say, without getting into all that audiophile nonsense jargon, it just sorted everything out. My 3D soundstage was and still is absolutely sublime. All instruments and music sounds truthful and convincing. There was me saying I wouldn’t talk audiophile.
Read the manual for speakers. My old Rega Kyte speakers had a manual that described placement. And that helped. Those speakers should be close to the wall, however. They were built like bookshelf speakers. I put them on atacama sand filled stands anyway. That helped.
Where was the sand sourced? Without proper sand, you're benefits will be negligible,if even perceptible.
@@bobspringer5370 I was said to buy quality cat sand. So I did.
I have a Jensen subwoofer paired up with a pair of Sherwood bookshelf speakers in a small bedroom hooked up to a Yamaha 7.1ch AV receiver. The bookshelf speakers were not a good choice, as the cabinet build isn’t very solid with a hollow sound when you knock on them. You can hear the hollow bass when playing music with lots of bass. The subwoofer is probably way too much for this room because I can actually hear more bass in other parts of the house than what I hear sitting directly in front of it.
I was thinking on speakers that are bit too big for small room with a concrete basement just tone down the bass to the speakers in a adjust the bass to the subwoofer at a lower level would that work good that's what I'm thinking of I got Polk Audio Tower speakers at the front and Klipsch f200 and they both Porsche about 125 watts per Channel speaker so I'm looking to put sound Acoustics on the ceilings and a little bit on the walls I hope that helps
A piano on the lower keys are distorted and rarely played. All you need in speakers is strong mids. LPs&tubes have strong mids. Forget about a subwoofer. A big speaker needs a sub. Big speakers don't have loud mids or loud bass. Bid speakers sound dull. Very small bookshelfs are the best. Small bookshelfs have louder mids than big speakers, so that you don't need a sub. I have speakers with a 4 inch woofer that sounds big. Up to a point, a smaller woofer is more clear than a bigger woofer. A first order or no crossover is best. Vandersteen speakers have a first order crossover & they aren't high in price. A first order crossover is simpler & that makes music more clear. You may have slightly less bass. Here is what to look for in bass. Loud, deep, & clearness. Its hard to get all 3. Cheap subs volume goes down more at the lower frequencies.
Hi Steve - I need your advice on Pioneer SP-EFS73 (best reviewed speakers by you). I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-LX503 receiver so I'm sure this will drive EFS73 4ohm speakers perfectly or not. Im planning to buy vintage amp like Adcom GFA-555 or similar to run these speaker. What's your suggestion? and also is adcom GFA-555 capable of running power hungry speakers like ELAC Uni-fi UF5 also without any issues??
The answer to that equation is just simply turn down the bass or get an eq and adjust to your liking. Never too much bass in my opinion, just gotta get more mids and highs to match the lows!
Steve - Need your advise on receiver for Pioneer SP-EFS73 speakers. I have Pioneer Elite VSX-503 receiver which is capable of running 4ohm speakers. Is this sufficient or I need to buy any sparate amp? And also suggest me best center will match with these speakers
So.. i got a question. I'm about to buy a Pioneer A-09 which "supposedly" is a pure Class-A amp, delivering 35watts 8 Ohm.
But this amp only draws 220watts, i would expect a powerful amp of that class to draw more.
On the subject of speakers. I find floorstanding speakers with 2 or more 6" woofers and midrange to be more then enough for most rooms.
When i lived at home i spent way too much money buying all sorts of 12" (to my parents dismay), expecting a better sound..
but it never delivered anything better. My 8" 3way technics always sounded better.. much better.
I then moved out and built myself a pair of speakers with Gamma1231 woofers, and altho they sounded good in my huge open appartment, they were easily outclassed by the floorstanding 3way speakers i built later that weighed 70kilos each , housing a single Peerless 8" woofer.
So now whenever i'm looking at new speakers, 6" is my goal.. i'm not interested in anything larger.
Yes I actually went a step too far with a pair of Legacy Focus SE speakers in my 15x25 living room. They have dual 12" woofers, and I can only put large speakers about 12 inches from the back wall before things look weird. The Focus is an amazing speaker, but as the name claims, they do FOCUS the sound with limited vertical dispersion. In the sweet spot on my sofa, they were about the best sound I've ever heard.... but around the room or in the dining area, they sounded dark and too bass heavy. Maybe this was more of a dispersion/directivity issue, but yes they did have too much bass for my setup. The Legacy Signature model, with dual 10's would have been the wiser choice. I did not keep the Focus's very long.
lived through it: Infinity SM12's, lots of power.
Love you so much♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Bigger isn't always better. Speakers to fit your room is what matters.
CARPET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BOOKCASE ON BACK WALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those two things can solve a LOT of the problem, so you can enjoy the BIG speakers you purchased.
To a point BIGGER IS BETTER, considering the midrange and upper range!
My current room is about like your Manhattan room, concrete, 11.5x17.25x8.5 feet. Not a good room size... The big room mode is 34hz, a horride room mode to have.
Room modes do not go away, it matters not how load or soft the music, it matters not how big or small the speaker. What does matter is how low the speaker plays, if your speaker hits -6db at 80hz you will not have much issue with room modes below that... have a speaker that plays down to 20hz and below and you will fight the room modes for the rest of your life....
If I play just my mains, I have a 26.5 db peak to trough room mode from 34 hz to 45 hz. But I have a subwoofer that with an absurd amount of effort in placement and tuning in order to counter the room mode and the mains, I have +/- 5 db from 25 to 115 hz. That is one way to deal with it, the other is to spend north of 10k for acousticfileds diaphragmatic absorbers....
Regardless of any and all variables, the only way to great sound at home is going to be through lottery winner level of luck to get a magic room, or a ton of acoustic treatment deployed in a painstakingly determined manner and probably/maybe a subwoofer or 2 or 3.... It is so far from easy it ain't funny, but the level of excellence one can take a good set of gear it astonishing.
One of the biggest disadvantages of speakers is that even the smallest of audio equipment takes anywhere from 25 to 35% of space of the room, MINIMUM. Then of course on the other hand, there people trying to get 1.2k + W per channel and speakers the size of ALTEC A7 Voice of the Theater into a 11 ‘ x 18‘ room. But I realize it’s not sexy at all to treat the room first (expensive) knowing a certain speaker is going to be used. So all of that is for a listening sweet spot of approximately 6 feet wide horizontally by maybe what 3 to 5 feet high vertically when seated ?
I bought a pair of Bose Companion 20s. They have too much bass (for the neighbours) and I had to stuff socks into the bass reflex vents.
A pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer would probably work better than using full size speakers and trying to manage the bass.
I love Epos. I have a pair of es11 in my bedroom. Es11 is superior to the es14 though. Funny thing is every now and then you can buy those for around 100 euro.
hi,good video,if you mean a sort of boominess sort of to much bass,60 cm by 60 cm chinese marbel 4 cm thick, garden tiles,40 euros each,at most big garden centers do the trick ,well worked for me and for my subs,keep up the good work.i dont have a bass or treble control.
As a ballpark figure what would you consider to be a small room? Would you put some numbers on that Steve?
A better definition of what is small and big interms of room size and speaker will help. This definition is hard to understand. Can u make a video to clear this aspect.
I guess I won't be replacing my RP-600M2s in my bedroom/HT then - roughly 13'x16' with speakers on the wide walls If I think I need more or less bass, I can always adjust my subwoofer volume (stacked 12" and 10" due to furniture placement issues) in a 7.2.4 system. Klipsch had a good deal on reconditioned RP-6000s. PS if/when I DO eventually replace my L/R speakers, should I replace my center channel with the same manufacturer at the same time?
Role of bass traps or any other bass control devices or room treatments (such as Synergistic's Black Box)?
That black box.. $2k? Before going that route, consider trying some 2'x4'x4" Owens Corning 703, some nice fabric to cover it, and some contact cement. Total cost would be about $100 for 3 panels and a couple hours of time. It made a huge improvement in my room.
@@DonStrenz Thanks, Don. I was hoping the Audiophiliac would have shared his thoughts on that aspect in his video.
Start with the rule of thirds and then make minor adjustments from there. I fiddled and fiddled, found the best spot, measured and found everything almost exactly at 1/3. Save yourself time and effort.
Could anyone tell me please approximately what is small / medium/ large size room ?
Example- small - 10x10 feet
Medium - 15x15 feet
Large - 20x20 feet
Thanks 🙏
Steve, you once owned Symdex speakers? Would be interested in your opinion. I still have my Symdex speakers purchased around the mid 1990’s.
I liked them, but that was 30 years ago. I don't have much more to say about them, sorry.
Hey hey hey: Peter Snell came over one night???? Steve, this alone is crazy..!!! One of the biggest legends ever came over one night??? Man, please let us know more bout this friendship.. Cheers
Hi Steve, my room is actually aprox 11x18 , it is not treated and has lots of reflections. Are the maggies .7 a forgiving speaker in that aspect? Or can you recommend any other speaker that is forgiving of room treatment ?
Nearfield listening, 6 feet or less reduces the problems from reflections. If you can place the .7s three feet away from the wall, they might be the way to go.
in small rooms larger is better, the law of directivity says so. Linkwitz also states "When I hear an unfamiliar loudspeaker in an unfamiliar room and it does not sound right, then I look for faults in the loudspeaker's design and placement long before I blame the room..."
my Dunlavy Athena/Aletha turned out to sound better(WAY BETTER) than the B&W DM 17's in the same room, and I don't think the B&W's sound bad. Fully treated 11 x 17 room.
I have high-frequency attenuators on large theater speakers and 5-band equalizer (+- 10 db) built-into a large Fisher receiver, plus a medium-large room (270 sq.ft.) Best sound I've ever heard, short of attending a live performance and I've been enjoying recorded music at home since 1940. That's a long time. Fortunately (or not!), my hearing is less acute now, saving me all that money chasing an elusive dream. My advice is to buy the best you can while you are young, while you can enjoy that advantage of high-end resolution. Wait until 50 and it's the Law of Diminishing Returns..an expensive ego-trip.
My problem is not enough bass from my Monitor Audio towers
This is seriously under-estimated because everyone gets seduced by big ass speakers. So did I when I put towers in my listening room and oh my god the contortions to get it to sound right. And almost off hand I bought really diminutive bookshelf speakers for my open plan dining area. About 3 times the size of the listening room and they fill the space with authority and control. Sure on paper the bass doesn't go as deep but IRL what bass there is is so fast and articulate and well controlled you mostly won't miss it. The number of times people have been startled by the sound in there (it was just intended for background music while entertaining but I often use it to fill the whole house) and they glance around and ignore the little bookshelves even though they see them. They're looking for visual confirmation of what their ears are telling them, large standmounts at least.
I have an apartment right next to your old apartment at the Lincoln spencer arms building!
How's it sound?
I have vicoustic on the walls and ceiling and a rug on the wooden floor.
A good friend of mine has way too many speakers and gave me a pair of VMPS Super Tower R’s. I put em in my approximately 15’ x 12’ room, and nope! Holy hell were these things too much! So, they’re now sitting in my garage waiting to be sold once the weather gets better in New England. Too bad, cuz I can tell they’re nice spkrs, but they also need some work. Oh, well...
Speakers and any electronics need to be stored in humidity controlled space. That is inside, unless your garage has heat and air conditioning.
Yes, I am very aware of this. The garage I’m speaking of is more a part of the house downtasirs, and is insulated and stays at a pretty contant temp of around 60 degrees or so. They are safe. I’d never put such nice spkrs out in the cold or heat.
The main danger is the humidity swings, so if the humidity is stable and below 50% it should be fine.
Oh, man. I know that all too well. There’s nothing worse than going to check out what you think are going to be a nice pair of vintage speakers only to find mold on the cones.
Some speakers do NOT sound good away from the rear wall like Sonabs, Larsens, Klipschorns, Cornwalls, Guru's etc.. they are cleverly designed to stand right up where the wall is
I have small speakers , 5 inch woofer. Its my choice couse my room is small and i listen in near Field. Many times i read on audio forums that people tend to choose big towers over monitors even when room is small. To many out there big BASSS is everything! And simply putting big towers they will never have good stereo imiging and spacious sound.
I bought bookshelves a few years ago because I had a small room. Now I've just moved to another house last weekend, where I have a bigger room. Still need to set up my system. Will see how those speakers manage over here to decide whether or not to replace them for floorstanding speakers.
@@CreateTimeToListen yeah depends how really bigger the room is. So good luck with setting!
@@xfilesfoxisdead7979 thanks !
@@CreateTimeToListen That's what happened to me. I had two great systems, in two small rooms in a condo (bedroom and living room). systems sounded excellent - perfect fit for those rooms (small, but high quality speakers and amps). Moved to an apartment with a larger living room and those speakers get a bit 'lost' in the room, unfortunately. I don't want to use a sub, but it's going to be expensive to get big speakers with the type of quality low bass I'm looking for to fill the room.
@@BadMonkeyFinger_Audio I do have a subwoofer with a built-in amplifier, but somehow I can't really manage to get the sound to my speakers through my subwoofer. Tried to connect it with the pre-out on my amplifier to the high level input on the sub. But I only get bass, the speakers themselves don't seem to get the sound from that amplifier like they should. Don't know what I do wrong there.
Hey Steve, so we're moving house and what you said has frightened me some.. my new listening room is W14' X L14' X H9'... All concrete, solid construction, one large window about the size of a 65" TV and the entrance door.
Do I put my towers in the living room and get smaller speakers and room treatment for the new Listening room? Or find another space..because I'm not interested in finding "Audio Hell" ☹️
Mark, put your towers in your new man cave and don't stress. It's ALL about the placement. This is YOUR listening room so put the speakers off the corners and away from the walls with your cabinet between. Just don't shove them into the corners or too close to the back wall. Create a combo "near field" and reflective effect. Room treatment? Maybe a carpet on the floor?
Small speakers with 5 inch or smaller woofers, if you then want more bass add a sub, so you can adjust the bass balance.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk Thanks John, will do! And yes definitely will carpet and add treatments as needed. Sigh much appreciated.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Thanks Steve, the towers have 6.5" woofers and I have 2 10" subs, so I'll place smaller speakers and the sub, along with treatments and play with the balance, speaker swap and treatments and see. Thanks for the support!
@@markwilson0077 I have a very reflective room and I like it based on my set up. It's a pretty big space so probably would be an echo chamber were it a smaller room. With the two subs I'd try them right on the back wall with the towers directly in front of them. I have my "other" system with KEF LS50 set about 3 ft off the wall and two REL 8" T5 on the wall. Well that's it you are welcome and best wishes...
Steve, I am going to assume that the vast majority of your subscribers have tone controls on their pre-amps / receivers. So I predict a flurry of comments about turning down the bass knob / lever as a simple and free solution.
A better solution would be 1) using speakers that are suited to the size of the room, and 2) room treatments (carpeting and/or professionally designed panels which double as aesthetically pleasing).
But I am assuming that most folks will not spring for an expensive and time consuming #2 solution, when they have a simple and free bass knob option (which is not a solution, as tone controls adversely affects sound quality).
Big impact to bass volume has positioning bass speaker/port between ceiling and floor. Usually it is about 10-11" and standing wave is 5 meters - 60 Hz which is affecting whole low range. . Due to different placing of ports and speakers it cannot be usually no accurate.
foam plugs help too..
Yes, even though I find that they change the sound quite a lot
Like most people, my stereo equipment is the living room. The living room contains sofa, loveseat (mini sofa), end tables, lamps, recliner, hutch (with stuff on it), a couple of wood chairs (extra for the dinning room table) and several framed pics on the walls. Lets not forget the front door and the coat closet door.
I saved my money for many, many years and spent thousands. I now enjoy a set of JBL 4365's, they incorporate a 15" woofer.
My living room is far, far from a perfect listening room, but that's all I've have and I don't worry about it. I just spin an LP or CD and enjoy what I have. I believe the great Charlie Chan said, "It is, what it is"
now you tell me !!
graphic equalizer?
If your speakers barely fit in the room, it's just right.
I'd rather have a problem with too much bass than not have enough.
Speakers that do really well without the need of a subwoofer is what I'm looking for.
Define large, medium and small rooms for me please.
Small, under 120 square feet; medium under 250 square feet; large over 250 square feet.
You said "bass definition", that is a good phrase that should be used more often. I see stupid sub woofer videos about huge subs that shake a room, but they don't mention the sound quality. You may hear people say listen to that airplane, no I want to hear a bass guitar clear and precise. Every time someone talks about bass they should talk about definition.
better to use closed box stand-mounts in a small room and ditch the sub
With two sets of speakers is it ok to place the smaller on top of the larger or does this cause other problems?
If you're running them together, that's going to cause a big problem, if separate, no problem 😁
@poserwannabe
Thanks man🙏 It’s great that people like yourself take time to help. I think good ‘ol Steve is busy trying to keep his contributors happy, which is cool. As they say money talks 😊
I’ve asked quatro tempo if impedance marching from cartridge to phono stage really matters on the vids about sound quality and not one reply. Would you know?
I mean it must do something but is it worth chasing with hard earned?
To reference I’ve read that although an mmc carts claim an impedance of 47kohms for commercial reasons the cartridge may actually display fuller musicality at say 66k ohms.
🤙🏽
@@EddyTeetree
Typically it will be plug and play for almost all mmc because they are built around the industry standard 47k ohm load. mcc on the other hand need a closer look. The additional preamp stage should be 5-10 times higher than the source, cheers 🍻
BTW- I have always felt that proper arm calibration is the most important aspect. Think about it, if the head is not properly aligned, or maybe pushing harder towards the center of the disk, that's going to create bigger problems. Isolation is an issue I address with a concrete paver from the hardware store or a chunk of granite from the countertop people, good luck and have fun !!!
Dish sponge in the port.
11x18 is not a small room this side of the pond
Yeah, I have a set of Altec Valencia 846A I have in a room that is 13 x 16 foot. Art Dudley had a set of these he reviewed and said you need to be at least 12 feet from the speakers for the horns to "gel". I purchased them because they are high efficiency and 16 ohms for my Heathkit W-5M monoblock pair. I was going to sell them because the room is too small for them to sound right. The only high efficiency small speakers I can think of are some Coral Beta 8 full range which might work better. Klipsch Heresy don't have enough low bass for my taste. Suggestions?
ZU Druids perhaps?
Do you really need low bass? And what is low bass in your thoughts?
@zulumax1 did you consider the inverted PA as a viable contender? I have seen the spec sheet and it just solidify's my findings of non professional type testing. You know
"driver dogfighting"
only a very few go to top driver school, mess up just this much and you know what that means?
@@SJMessinwithBoats At least 40-50hz that is about where the Altecs roll off. Adequate for 90% of recorded music. The Heresy rolls off at 60hz which sounds like it needs a sub. My main setup has Quad 22L towers and remote controlled 12" sub which kicks in under 30hz, that system will produce anything on recording up to 100db SPL. If I want to rock out I will turn on my Sansui integrated amp hooked up to Speakerlab 4's which uses the early Klipsch style compression horn tweeter and a sealed acoustic suspension rubber surround 12" woofer which has a long excursion design and 18hz free air resonance, 93db/1 watt. Deep deep bass and accurate bass. I was thinking of Frankenstiening the midrange in them to the Forte mid driver, but that thought was only brief. The mid it has is a rubber surround mid that goes to 500hz, and I don't think a mid size horn can go that low. The Forte III would be an option, but they need room to breathe behind them, Cornwalls too big too. That is why I would consider the ZU speakers like the Druid, but I have to research more on those. My friend has the ZU Definition mk III, those are the ultimate with 500 watts/channel into eight 12" rear firing subs, four front facing 12" woofer/mid-bass/midrange, and two compression horns. Very cool, but those are like unlimited clarity and SPL combined. Is that too much ramble for a simple question?
@@SJMessinwithBoats Cool, but Relevancy????
But but, what if we want a tekton moab and our living room is only maybe 12x20? 😅😅😅
Let's hear it for NearField!!
Little speakers are like a little dick -- not impressive to it's intended target and lacking in impact. The only people who think size does not matter are those that don't have it!
Moriyama, your last name says it all. Ridiculous comment.
I love good bass, it adds another dimension to the music... Music with little to no bass sounds flat to me IMHO.
my amp is too small love my bass
Room correction 🤔
acoustic treatment.
Miika Venäläinen yes there are few ways to address this issue speaker isolators moving speakers to 1/5 of room length measured from front of speakers to front wall and 1/3 to 1/4 of width from side walls also just some thoughts 🤗
When I push my amp hard, mild visual distortions occur..... Is that too much bass?
No not enough. You need more bass so that your eyeballs bounce in phase with the subwoofers.
Nah it's only a problem when it affects the ability to breathe 💪😈
Visual distortion?? Is LSD involved?
When my hair starts parting I know bass level is perfect ⚡︎
@@chrisvinicombe9947 that's maybe too much for the house.....but my car is almost there. The car does have amazing SQ too, not just bass. Custom pods, Hertz, class AB POWER, premier with Burr browns....
I just imagine this Steve guy sipping a soy latte, and thinking to himself that the 5.25" woofers he's got turned up to a whopping 70 decibels are really powerfully conveying the esoteric aether spirit of a Pastorius fart accidentally recorded and how it is so real he can almost smell it.....wowwwww mannnnn.
Doesn't Dirac help?
EDM-I have JBL livesound equipment in my small studio. Studio Genelec- JBL Studio ...it depends what mood and music. Everything has a purpose and place. I don't care about critical listening when I need sheer output.
💯👍👍