Steep grades, 26000+hp, and a pulled knuckle.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- A Union Pacific coal train tries to get a run up the DRG&W's line to Soldier Summit. Three units up front 6562-8206-7048, three mid-train 6630-125-222. Shortly after the hind end passes, the train went into emergency. It pulled a knuckle between the second and third car. Thanks for watching. jackmp294.5™
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My dad worked as a locomotive engineer for the D&RGW. He originally hired on as a fireman in 1939 in the steam engine days and later became an engineer after the fireman position was eliminated. He ran between Pueblo, Colorado, through the Royal Gorge, and on to Salida. A few years before he retired, they lengthened the run another 100 miles to Minturn, Colorado. He had a lot of interesting stories to tell. He passed away in 2002 at 81 years of age.
Did the Rio Grande eliminate its firemen after it retired its steam engines and switch to diesels in the early to mid 1950s?
The AC6000 for horse power, the sd90 for weight and the AC4400 for backup! That's a cool consist! Good video BTW!
Soldier Summit, at 2,279 m (7,447 feet), is in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah. The nearby town of Helper, UT derives its name from the helper engines needed to clear the summit.
We in the North East do not see engines in the middle of the train. Looks like two trains connected together.
I think it is really cool to see this type of thing. Thanks for posting.
Thanks dfk. Glad you enjoyed it. I have some other video with mid-train helpers as well, and some taken on Tennessee Pass that have power on the front, mid-train, and on the rear. That was really fantastic to see. Thanks for watching...
@QUIX4U As a driver I always knew never to shut that throttle too fast if I lost air. There was always a possibility that the back end was heavier than the front end and I sure as shit didn't want it to catch up to me.
US Railroads operate on a pressure release system.
Loss of pressure causes brake application, so the safest mode is without air in the lines.
Yes there were a number of reasons that happened - the train was about 2,000 tons heavier than reported, dynamics were out on two units, and the engineer pissed away the air.
@1jackdk Oh & if one listens very carefully- it's about 1min14 that the 1st "screech" of applied brakes occurs- & EVEN THOUGH- the 1st set of loco's was already shutting down- the second "mid_point" loco's were still "push-pulling" at high power & then- about 1min22- the midpoint loco's come under MORE "backpressure" from the effect of the lead loco's NO_LONGER puling (before the airhose fully separated) and thus- even AFTER the brakes started "emergency_stop" -- these were still grunting along.
Sweet UP AC6000.. Wow 3 helpers in the middle with a SP.. Awesome
Likely the DPU power wasn’t in the middle of the train if there was only two sets of power. If the power was in the middle the train probably would have had a break in two before the train got out of the yard limits. If two sets of power are used the second set needs to be at least two thirds of the way back in the train. That way approximately a sixth of the train slack is bunched ahead of the DPU power to creat a buffer for the slack action. When using three sets of power, the second set will be placed in the middle when the pushers are on the rear.
Wow! Thanks, I now understand what my Trainz game is talking about when it says I pulled a Knuckle. Jeffrey
air left in the reservoirs to apply the brakes in emergency mode, and then things get dicy fast! That's why it's important to have functional dynamic brakes on your locomotives. For reference to this, research the Southern Pacific derailment at Cajon Pass in 1990.
These are wonderful to watch. No need to have a set at home. Thanks
@kealoa9 Not how it's done on the iron ore roads down under. Separate computer screen for driving the mid train units but then the trains down here are bigger.
Cool train and nice diesel sound. They have hard work to do with that broken knuckle and the later re-starting the train, I guess. Thumbs up! :)
It was filmed in 2000. The second unit, UP#8206 is a SD9043MAC, which leads me to believe its a 4300 hp ac unit. 70 its not for sure.
@sparks1504 As soon as the cars separate the "train-line" (air that runs through all the cars from the locomotives) would break, causing the train to go into emergency. The train-line is supposed to be 90 psi if it drops fast enough it acts like a big rig would if it lost its air pressure.
@iusetano Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the vid. My son is in Georgia now for NS conductor training. They where in the yard yesterday changing knuckles and hoses. He said he's glad he's got steel toe boots! LOL Thanks for watching...
@Haggman66 Remote control. The mid train locos are radio controlled automatically by the front end locos so the "engineer" only has to drive one loco regardless of how many sets are on the train.
Mind you, it wasn't a movie, but a very good description of how and why closing petcocks at both ends of a string is a BAD idea.
I am not sure, they may, but never went to the top to see if thats what they did. I have been on the old Clinchfield, and I know the CSX has that system. Back in the 70's, I caught early Conrail cutting off on the fly at the top of Readings Emaus Hill in PA. It was against the law then, as the conductor actually had to climb down to pull the pin while moving. The crew wasn't happy when they spotted me with movie camera. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294
@machapu I can understand people getting injured in yard situations where care may be getting moved about or just standing with handbrakes but it seems like overkill out on a running line where everything is secured by air and you are the only people there.
Unusual to get a knuckle or drawbar with a DP setup.
you are full of shit
If so, I apologize. I thought the whole point of distributed power was to minimize the strain on the draft gear.
You are correct. With DP, you are less likely to get a knuckle. But you get an even lesser chance if the pushers are all the way to the rear.
All the crew is safe, and three step protection was inforced. Thanks for looking. Jack
At least the poor conductor didn’t have to tote that 80+lbs knuckle too far!
Wow, at last seeing those AC6000 is a joy
Michel
@1jackdk The last loco on the head end is an AC6000CW built by GE.
Man, those engines were doing some work !!!
Working their guts out for sure. The did sound good.
@1jackdk Yep- accidental separation of train rolling stock (where the westinghouse airbrake system is used) causes the air hose 2 pull apart & instantly locks the brakes of all following vehicles (away from the loco) whereas the LOCO section of the train suffers immediate losss of pressure causing alarms to operate inside the cab as well as applying the brakes slightly later (thereby causing the seperation gap)- unfortunately- slow train speeds result in reduced FIXED emergency STOPPED positions
Rotary dump cars usually have cotter pins at the bottom of the knuckle pin.
These pins keep the knuckle pin from falling out when being rotary dumped.
Without a pair of vise grips to straighten out the cotter pin,your dead in the water.
Looks like these guys lucked out & got a car without a cotter pin.
@fyadcorp Its interesting how many railroad experts seem to post on TH-cam. I have been working for UP as a train crew since 2008 I know how it’s supposed to work; violating a rule is violating a rule. Rule 81.2.2 says equipment must be separated 100 feet. I think it used to be 50 though. The only exception is if they had "prior approval" which is possible.
We where going to the next photo location when we heard it go into emergency, and climbing that steep of a grade, it didn't take to long to stop. So we just pulled to the side of the road to see what was going on. The only forces I can think of was that the headend was out pulling the helper units...
one time there was a coal drag on the sunbury sub (CP Rail) with NS 8838 uphill we were sittin there and all of a sudden a real loud PING CHinG PISSTTTSSHHHTT and a loun BOOM it was really loud and it just pulled right in front of us
Comparing apples to oranges, the SP derailment was due to a heavy train for what the locomotives could reasonably handle and the engineer should have applied emergency brakes as soon as the train started to feel out of control not piss away the air, dynamics would never have controlled that train
Aint those SP units Beautiful!!!
Only so long as there is air in the reservoir on each car. Once that bleeds away, there is nothing to hold the brakes applied, so the whole thing just kinda starts rolling and if you're quick enough, you might get handbrakes set on one or two cars. Hopefully, with this being the case, there is not any significant grade or you will have a runaway.
If the air in the trainline has been 'pissed out', i.e. the engineer has applied significant reduction for a long time, there might not be enough->
they are suposed to have 100 ft separation between those cars to replace a knuckle. or 50 feet if it was a few years ago.
wow,,some power there,,the trains in england that my farther works on still have a chain link you have to go under and hook up manuley,,the wagons dont have brakes,,just the loco and caboos,,but that has changed now on most main lines,,i had to get out of the gards van at the crest of the hill and set the manul brakes befor going down,,,dont miss thouse days,,,thanks for uploading,,,
We cut out traction motors do having too much power for the knuckles in the portion of train being pulled - why just go up a grade with more power than need, well that falls back to the what if? better to have that not to right :) Stuff happens just as you see in this video - great video
I have made that climb hundreds of times, I used to be a conductor for the U.P. when the economy was good, miss that job..
@sparks1504 When the knuckle pulls apart, so do the cars. In this case, the lead locomotives where pulling harder then the locomotives in the middle. The cars come apart, and the air hoses disconnects, causing the train to lose air preasure setting the brakes. Its nothing the engineer has to do. The train just goes into emergency. Thanks for watching...
8 years ago about some unfortunate fellah checkin the back end knuckle well the train ended up adding one more car. and well he ended up being part of the train.
Awesome scenery.
I'm guessing these monsters have three phase geny's and motors with frequency controllers? This is coming from a guy who knows bugger-all about trains!
probably just a communication delay to the mid units, the head end would try to go faster than the mid units, very easy to pull a knuckle in that situation
the first 2 GE units were AC6000CWs which out put 6000hp
That helps!!! Thanks for looking. Jack...
@sparks1504 Also, on many occasions...it's just a cracked knuckle that finally gave way from many hard trips under it's belt...lol. They don't last forever! Great vid, I love the sound of the locomotives. I hope UP picks up the coal contract on the Houston, Tx. side so I get handle coal trains again!
I'm buying that. It sounds quite similar to the system used for buses, trucks and road trains.
They got lucky, looks like they were close to the power and didn’t have to carry the knuckle very far.
Both SP units are AC4400CWs, they never had any -9s.
@machapu Seems like an odd rule. We just get em far enough apart to have a work space. If the loco end is secure and the brakes on the other half have had a holding test nothing should be able to move. But aint they a bitch of a thing to carry. Which makes me wonder if these guys took the spare from the lead unit why didn't they do what I'd do. Drop it on the ground and pull forward to avoid carrying it anywhere.
@machapu Yeah, great idea, tie down the train and pump up the air just to pull ahead a few dozen feet, waste the better part of an hour in the process. No officer would write them up for changing a knuckle like they did.
@flyrock45 I would say pretty tuff. Probably the best way is to have the midtrain helpers start to push the slack into the head in units, then the head end start to slowly notch it out until they get it moving pretty good.
@sparks1504 Fortunately. Westinghouse brake system's operate- such that any accidental separation which pulls apart the OPEN_FLOW airhose connections- results in immediate LOSS of hold_open "pressure" (which causes the brakes to close ON ALL CARS- in the emergency position).
However- that in itself- is a MAJOR FAULT.
Especially when some "twit" forgets to fully open the "air_cocks" when cars are coupled.
(OR when some criminal "deliberately" closes them- before separating the train- at speed)
couple of thoughts. One, It is a very general statement to say "you can't cut off 'on the fly' ". You are correct in saying that DPU can't, no one home to do it, operate the helper. But MRL, for one, has manned helpers that "cut and run" on Bozeman pass several times a day. Curious, why would traction motors be "cut out" on a train with 3 lead and 3 helpers struggling up a notoriously steep grade with such heavy tonnage? I am just asking. It isn't saving fuel, locos are clearly in run 7 or 8.
I do not film trains but i have a massive collection of videos of trains, all kinds, steam diesel.... I'm curious to know in what manner they were alerted to a pulled knuckle situation from their vantage point. thank you
@Haggman66 All train crews .. normally have radio_telephones .. ON_BOARD .. such that they communicate instantly .. with the crews further down the train .. unlike the oldtime twin header & pusher STEAM LOCO CREWS .. whom relied ONLY on a code of WISTLE TOOTS (and often didn't hear these ... through tunnels .. or high levels of other noises)
Great power i love the SD80 locomotief classes.The knuckle couldn"t handle the stress so it snaps.Happens sometimes even if riding in Notch 4,5 mostly notch7.8 with this length will break it earlier.
juan asandro It was a a SD90MAC
That is one heck of a piece of railroad you ran. Hope things pick up again, so you can get back to work. The coal industry is down big time here in SW PA. My son works for the NS. They are hurting bad here in the coal fields. The mainline is hummin though. He just qualified Conway to Harrisburg. They are getting a lot of crude oil trains out of Canada for the east coast. He was on a W/B empty last night Best of luck to yah, and thanks for watching...
Let's hope the oil trains keep on rolling in the foreseeable future in Pennsylvania!
I recently discovered through Trains magazine that the railroads are attempting to develop cars that haul natural gas. If they are indeed given up on coal, I hope that unit natural gas trains get rolling someday.
Well, at least it was only 2 cars behind the engine. Not too much walking.
Nice catch on the CW-44/60AC!
@machapu This was 2001 if I remember correctly, but it apears to be, MAYBE 20' seperation between them. Thanks for watching...
Looks like rock quarry from fallout new Vegas
when was this filmed b/c correct me if im worng (nicley that is) but i got a model of an sd 90 up and the second unit does not look like an ac. it has the hood and the extension on the back ad the door is on the right side in the front. thats an sd 90. the only other locomotive to have the fan extension towards the rear of the train was the sd 80 and up didn't have the 80 model. conrail, and ns had the 80 model. the only other thing i can say is it is a 70 and i know for a fact thats its not.
I'm guessing this line is still heavily used by the UP?
Are those older SP locos? I couldn't read the markings very well.
I've gotten one one empty coal train but it was 75% old break knuckles get a lot of stress when the cars are loaded as shown here.
Not a Grande fan obviously. The only true sound is that put out by an EMD prime mover.
@Rocketboy1950 As U'r a USA driver & there's mid mounted driving units [quote] Three units up front 6562-8206-7048, three mid-train 6630-125-222 [unquote] I am left wondering: DO THOSE three middle units also "supply air" ito the braking system ? Or is it simply LIKE the NZ System- where ALL of the BRAKE_AIR is "fed" from the front LEAD loco (I'm only in NZ and thus over here they seldom if EVER have three units in the middle & I think the old FELL system had mid mounted locos & no other train).
OK, I'll correct you. LOL! The 2nd unit is an SD90/43MAC, (non 6000 HP SD90 rated at 4300 HP) It's an AC unit. All of the UP 90 type SD units are AC units.
@Rocketboy1950 Well it depends on the railroad, not all railroads use the GCOR rules that UP goes by. We have had a few crushing injuries/deaths that spawned this rule.
Did you capture the train going into full emergency?
Would like to hear and see that and see how long it took to stop.
I didn't know they could break a knuckle just from pulling.
Were there other forces involved, such as slack action waves or something?
Thank you.
"Pulled a knuckle"? Coupler broke?
How does that occur on a moving train? (I can imagine that happening from slack yanking a stationary car.)
What did it sound like? Happened after you stopped filming?
Is that how far the cars separated? Or did they back closer. Spare knuckles on the engines? Thank you.
@JBOMB1414 Well! Thanks for watching anyway. I guess the grass would be better deal than watching paint dry. LOL. Take care. Jack
Good stuff. 5* Sucks about the knuckle though.
pure torque
Are all of the loco's controlled from the front loco? how does the driver control the loco's half way down the train?
Helpers not pushing hard enough, causing to much stain on the knuckles.
You said it in one "I'm not educated on trains". Now read the comments but posters in the know and gain some knowledge. Train and truck systems are like chalk and cheese. Trains have a failsafe system that applies the brakes if there is any loss of integrity of the system. You see it right before you when both portions of the parted train come to a stop.
power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
there lucky they had 3 more locos mid way. That would be one hell of a runaway.
@Rocketboy1950 The reason I ask this is ? If the middle units also supply AIR into the braking system- then I would immediately also know why Ur so concerned about "catch_up" tailend separation wagons over-running your "braked" & thus stationary leading units (as ANY air fed in from locomotives mid mounted BEHIND the hose break - would keep rearwards brakes open & NOT applied as hard. But if they are not assisting with air, then the rear section should stop first before the lead loco shuts down)
I LOVE TRAINS NEVER SEEN A MID TRAIN WOW I LOVE IT... NICE VIDEO!!!!!
@Rocketboy1950 "yeah" -- Makes a mess doesn't it .. when a "runaway" tries to pass the leading few .. (on a single piece of track)
Could be worse, could be snowing!
jack your ideos are awsome!!!! really!!!!
Actually, I thought that was because someone bottled the string. Fact of the matter is, those are NOT reserve tanks. They serve as mechanical amplifiers to help pressure the string to release brakes. Loss of pressure still applies brakes.
No Pressure = Brakes!
My source? A couple training films by Union Pacific, one called "Bottling the Air" and another that if I remember right was called "Introducing EBS" . I do believe that trumps whatever ill-informed news source you got that from.
just curiosity, it has 3 locs pulling and 3 pushing, so about how many cars were those locs hauling?
nice video, thanks
nice sd90mac
I'm not educated on trains but common sense makes me sceptical to this. I'm more familiar with trucks and other heavy road vehicles. The brake system for trucks and similar use pressurised air to apply the brakes, but the parking brake is spring operated and air pressure is needed to release it. If a system this secure is obligatory on a small 15 tonne vehicle, why should a train weighing many thousands of tons be less secure? Unless a train engineer confirms what you say I can't believe it.
extension cords and zip ties should do the trick
They are very loud when they break. If you ever saw one break in front of you then you would know what im talking about. (I saw 2 break on 2 different Ns coal trains here on the CP sunbury sub many years ago)
Good Video, you handled JBOMB1414 's comment well and politely.
these are all remote units run by the head end
at least the train didn't roll backwards down hill
Zombie Slayer8999 but I have seen stalls on some hills
So, how difficult would it be to start a train in a grade like this one???
man that was loud
If the President and his "henchmen" get their way, the Coal Industry across the USA will be screwed. I hope he changes his mind, people need work in PA, W.VA, and all other area's that produce coal. Great Video!
is that SP unit (the last one) unpatched at 1:36?
WOW! Great Video!