Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
- www.audioholics... - Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible?. Gene and Hugo discuss the difference between bi-amping and bi-wiring and whether you can hear a difference or not.
In a conventional wiring arrangement, a length of 2 conductor cable is run from the positive and negative terminals of an amplifier to the corresponding terminals on the rear of a loudspeaker. When a speaker has the ability to be bi-wired or bi-amped it has two pairs of terminals, and jumper straps are used to establish an electrical connection between the two pairs.
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Listening to Gene always amazes me, his knowledge of audio is beyond anything I've ever heard. Thank you Gene even though this video is 8 years old. (still useful)
I'm glad Lou Ferigno finally found a new job.....
hahaha
Just dont get him angry and all is well
mustis M 😁
What about when bi amping with a reciever? There is a difference in power handling between the high mid drivers and the low driver. what do you do about that situation? I'm having troubles finding this information through cerwin vega which is my speaker brand. I don't want to damage my hf and mid drivers with too much power. 2 cerwin vega xls 215 pioneer 1523-k reciever planning to bi amp like I did with my old setup.
john smith
I also have the xls215's. I would. Bi amp off of a solid 140 wpc receiver
I honestly enjoy these older videos with Hugo more than your newer live vids.
Yea me too. The good ole days :/
Looks like they swapped shirts.
also sounds like someone is masturbating in the background, heavy breathing
Pretty good show, isn't it?
Lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
😂
Not only that, but their wire is larger than their speakers. 🙄
Great video, as always. I know this is an older video, but I keep coming back to it to copy the link to answer questions people still ask on the forums and on some of the FB groups I belong to. Appreciate the great explanations!!
I recently did turn my classic Dahlquist DQ10s into an active system using four amps and an electronic crossover. The results were outstanding in clarity, detail, control, bass . . . pretty much everything. It was an undaunting task . . . but also I knew that if I succeeded, my time and efforts would be greatly rewarded . . . and they were! I would only recommend this to someone, who totally understands crossovers, an active system, and has the courage to dive into this genre. I really do hear things in the recordings that I did not before, and the sound quality is only limited by your own ears. I say this because once your room characteristics are corrected, the customization of the sound is totally up to you, which is a very nice feature. In my system, the electronic crossover is hooked into the router of my internet; therefore, I am able to control my laptop wirelessly, while sitting in the sweet spot adjusting all the features in live time. SWEET!
I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i and I had a Carver AVR 100 receiver 150 watts a channel and an Adcom GFA5500 at 200 watts a channel used the Adcom for the bass and the Carver for the mid and high frequency. They sounded amazing, wish I still had those speakers. Good video Gene
Thanks! You just saved me a lot of money, heartache, and headaches :)
For the first time I've understood bi-amp and bi-wiring concepts. Thanks for the great educational video!
Just because you can measure it doesn't mean you can here it. The truth has been spoken.
Oh man, i just got through the video. I love that you guys looped the outputs back into itself on the 5803 - I did exactly this with a 2803 (not as high end but the same model year/same exact process). I built my own active crossover tailored to 70s large advents (similar to powered advents which I also have a pair of) and used 4 of the amp channels on that denon the same way you did. The crossover i built also had a built in linkwitz transform to add some gain down low for flatter frequency response (didn't have much problem with the extra power at low frequencies because it didn't need much gain to extend the -3 point down to about 25hz).
The final evolution of the system was that crossover, and a Bryston 4B and a Bryston 2B in a horizontal biamping config, so I had about 100WPC into the tweeters and 400WPC into the woofers, with a stacked large advent setup. It was pretty kickass but thats a lot of speaker real estate, complicated wiring/power up procedure, and ultimately not enough output at 20-30hz to handle movies with that much gain and no additional sub. Pretty amazing quality for music though with the stacked set up.
Since switched to Mackie hr824s and an HSU ULS-15 sub for my main audio system - that still gives me biamping and the ULS-15 is much more suited to very low frequency output than the four advent woofers. Plus the tweeter is absolutely better on the Mackies.
Honest talk in audio, nice to see. So much nonsense in audio. I know Hugo from other endeavors and had no idea he was into audio. Cool.
Man is it a breath of fresh air to see an audio related channel both not trying to sell something and also not spreading what can only be called "audiophile science"
Thank you so much my buddy bi wired his speaker and told the world how much of a difference it makes
Thanks for clarifying this, I'll stick with the current one wire per speaker!
I turned on bi-amp on my Onkyo with Klipsch speakers. Not much difference but a very small amount. What I ended up doing was using the bi-amp to drive another set of speakers that are on a shelf higher up. This increased the sound nominally but most importantly, it lifted the sound stage. The best thing that I ever did. So now I'm running R-26FA with RP-600M speakers when using 2 channel. Awesome immersion. Just floor speakers place the vocals at waist height. Now they're at standing height which feels natural if you were listening to music in person. Unless you're listening to a person 4 feet tall.
I'm disappointed that this video has more downvotes than a charlatan's video (which was posted more recently, but has a similar number of upvotes too). Truth loses, salesmanship wins.
Keep it up with these accurate videos.
That's because truth is boring, and fiction is fun! Lol
A common connection will not have an impedance difference. You will only see an impedance difference if you run the wires to separate channels. Think about it!!!!
But you did a better job of covering this subject than most of the other videos I've seen.
We are talking about biwiring which uses the same amp to power each speaker. The connection point on the amp side is common for single wire vs biwire.
Having recently tried biwiring my BnW speakers (which I WAS very skeptical about!), I was amazed at how the sound was transformed by orders of magnitude. I heard vocals that I’d never noticed previously. The proof is in the listening! Maybe it’s manufacturer- or product/ setup dependent. But with my (SINGLE-amp!) gear, it worked.
Hi. I recently did the same and noticed a difference. Heard things never heard before. Posted a comment on another video and got rubbished as they refused to believe that it makes a difference. I like the increased musical listening.
I thought you were gonna say “ we’re not married” 😂😂🍻. It’s refreshing to see two macho men not ego tripping and just relaxing and being funny. Keep it up🍻
You can also use a higher power amp on the lows to get more bass.
Also, some amplifiers have dual outputs for connecting your speakers with bi-wired cables with a “series/parallel” switch.
Please check, how these "dual outputs" are connected under a cover... ;-)
Thats what I do. Marantz 2 channel receiver runs the mids and highs Crown amp runs the lows sounds fantastic.
You made a interesting comment early on. I have paralleled 2 pairs of Bookshelf Speakers connected to my Denon DRA-800H Receiver connected to the A or B speaker connection. Both pairs are 8 ohms : 1 pair Elac Reference 6.2s and 1 pair of Fluances Signature Series Bookshelf speakers. They "play" very nicely together , filling my finished basement "Studio" created in the COVID Hibernation. I then added another pair of Bookshelf speakers to the A connection , playing in the front of the room. Another pair of Elac Debut 6.2s (also 8 ohms). Per advice from on line Audiophile Blogs, I stopped that after the Denon Receiver shut down (for Overheating and circuitry overload protection). I have since added another Integrated IOTA SA3 unit running with an Emotiva A-300 Amp. Leaving the paralleled speakers on the Denon , but connecting the other Elacs to the IOTA unit. I have now added yet another pair of Bookshelf speakers : Emotiva B1+s. They are connected to the Emotiva A-300. No problems with getting too warm or overload. When I run this setup , playing with the loudness controls between the 2 configurations, I am able to achieve a Concert Hall Sound. I know this is Anti-Audiophile way of doing things, but Hell I'm 69 YO , retired, and love My Music to listen to and play my renewed passion of drums (after a 50 year Hiatus ). Please comment accordingly. I appreciate all comments. FYI. I had the Elac Debuts and the Fluances (purchased in mid 2020), purchased the Elac References in December 2020, and now the Emotiva's just a couple of weeks ago. I am tempted with Trading the B1+s for T1+ (floor standing 3 way speakers ).
Thanks guy's, fairly new to this and you have saved me a load of money
A few years ago I upgraded to a pair of substantial floorstanders. Each cabinet contains 3 200mm low frequency drivers, 1 165mm mid range driver and a 25mm tweeter.organised in a 3-way configuration. I drive them with a pair of 300w monoblocks. To my personal taste, I felt the mid range would benefit from a little more body and the top end, more presence. For some time I’ve contemplated passive bi-wiring. Everyone I discussed this with told me it was a bad idea, they said active bi-amping was a better option and I can see the logic in their advice. But, as you pointed out, active bi-amping is a complex undertaking. So, I went down the passive route.
I purchased a stereo power amp reputed for it’s detail retrieval whilst maintaining good tonal density. In the sane price bracket as my monoblocks vut not quite as powerful. Installation was a breeze, as my preamp has 2 sets of XLR outputs, powered simultaneously. The monoblocks and power amp had the same DB gain. I used identical speaker cable and identical cable lengths for both. I have the monoblocks powering the 6 200mm low frequency drivers and the power amp powering the mid and high frequency drivers. I really didn’t know what to expect.
Well now the mid range is fuller, with far more detail. The highs are slightly more forward and airy. Applause sounds like applause, not like rain on a tin roof. Symbols sound like symbols, not like spoons. That maybe a slight exaggeration, but you get the picture.
The bass is tight. Is well textured and defined, it carrie’s far more heft. So much so, that I have had to turn the gain down on my active subs!
My normal listening level is around 79db, because I have neighbours. At this volume the audio reproduction is relaxed, effortless and transparent. The results are worth the effort.
I have spent just under £11000 on amplification. The preamp, monoblocks and power amp. The question has to be, had I spent &11000 on a single higher end amp, would the benefits be greater?
hard to tell at that volume level. We added external analog crossovers and tri amped large PA speakers (horn tweeter, horn mids, and dual 15 woofers) and certainly was very easy to tell at loud club levels how much better it sounded with one amp channel for each element. Especially the bass because PA system like that don't play real low on the subs so we would crossover at 100hz to the subs then rolloff the subs at 40hz.
Thanks for the video and much truth spoken 👍🏻. One thing I would mention is the jumpers or links on bi-wire speakers do in many case come supplied with gold plated metal plates or bars.... I've found it better where possible to replace these with jumpers made from the same cable as that run from the amp.
I have a vintage Rotel RX-855 Receiver and a Rotel RB-850 Amplifier that I Bi-amp in mono(one amp to each speaker) with one set of posts on each speaker. This set up was designed this way and love it! They originally are 50wpc seperately and around 150wpc together.
You always know its going to be hilarious when they have a double act to explain connecting something with a bit of wire versus connecting something with twice as much wire.
Interesting guys, I get what you're saying but I did ask the guys at B&W and what I was told is that if you biwire you can avoid having your mids and highs interacting so much with the bass crossover section. It's a cheap thing to test so I did, what I heard was that the highs were not so much higher or sharper but they seemed to be a bit more abundant. What I felt could be going on is that the intensity or clarity of the highs could possibly be affected by either the crossovers involving the lower end. Or the interaction of the woofer itself as it moves back and forth (which I assume affects the electrical balance within the speaker) could be affecting the highs. I felt I was hearing much better mids and highs so I kept it were it was. I would think that if you have low end speakers or your into certain kinds of music you may not be as sensitive to the affect of all this. I do have some quality gear and perhaps that makes it easier to hear a difference
It's unlikely an engineer, not a marketing person, at B&W would recommend that. Be careful with the power of suggestion and how sighted uncontrolled listening tests can trick you into thinking you will hear a difference. The only slight advantage biwiring gives you is less cable resistance (3AWG lower if using 2 identical sets of cables per speaker). It certainly doesn't cost much to try it if you're using inexpensive cable, but the back EMF reduction arguement is a weak one not grounded in much science.
See: www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring
I don't have a suggestive personality, and I can tell you I spend almost 2 hours a night before bed listening to music. The difference I heard was real. I was up last night till 4 am 3 hours longer than normal amazed at the clarity I was hearing, I had also made a change to my bass crossover I went from 30hz and under for the sub to 70hz and under for the sub. I have issues with room acoustics. The combination was pretty amazing, some of my older recordings sounded better than I have ever heard them.
Everyone has a suggestive personality. It's human nature. The only way to eliminate that bias is to do a controlled listening test. This is important when audible differences are so subtle and easily misconstrued. Have a friend switch between biwiring and single wiring without you knowing which is which if you really want to know for sure the differences you're hearing are real or placebo. Good luck and enjoy.
Im still confused on the biwiring signal path as your diagram doesnt show a crossover. You cant send an amps full range signal to a mid or tweeter without protection. Please explain. Thanks :)
Biwiring doesn't remove the crossover. The connection on the amp side is the same but the hpf and lpf are separated at the speaker side through 2 sets of cables.
@@Audioholics I've left a post to you on another of your videos about bi-wiring, but found this one which may be more appropriate to the point I have. At 4.00-4.10 you're are talking about the highs and lows being tied together at the amplifier end (Y point). You seem to be suggesting that because of this the 'signals' (current) flowing along each wire to the tweeter filter and along the woofer wire to the woofer filter are the same. Do you think they are? As you say the impedance of of the current source (amplifier) is extremely low compared to the drive unit it is feeding (typically 4-8 ohms). Now, a 50hz 'bass' current 'sees' about 7000 ohms of capacitive reactance due to the input series capacitor (about 4-5 microfarads in a typical Butterworth filter) along the tweeter wire, consequently almost no 50hz current will flow (any 'residual' will find a path to ground after the capacitor via the inductor). Now, the amplifier will 'see' negligible impedance ( just the 8 ohms of the woofer) in the woofer wire as the input series inductors of the woofer filter present a tiny inductive reactance at this frequency, and consequently the 50hz current will flow through the woofer. At, say, 10Khz the reverse is true and the amplifier will 'see' high impedance in the woofer wire, and low impedance in the tweeter wire and consequently flow from the Y split to the tweeter filter.
All this will seem obvious to anyone with a decent grounding in Ohms Law in AC circuits. Would you confirm this is what you understand to happen. Bi-wire detractors try to use the argument that the signal current DOESN'T split at the amplifier end - for example M Zillch in his 'Bi-wiring: The Secret truth Revealed' TH-cam video, where he quotes you as backing him up! He seems impressed that you have a degree in electrical engineering.....overkill perhaps for such an elementary Ohm's/Kirchhoff's Laws problem!
I didn't see why bi-wiring would work. But this afternoon I had nothing to do, and some speaker-cable left. So just to get rid of them I bi-wired my speakers. Somehow there's a lot of difference in the sound. I didn't expect that. I did a blind test with someone putting the extra wires on and off, and there's no doubt.
I was also curious and I just biwired my center speaker Polk706c, I definitely heard the difference!!
Hard to explain but the clarity got even better and it feels like the center speaker is more alive.
I guess it makes difference after all...
@@kenasaoka888 It's likely that you guys are using high-gauge wires (i.e. 16 AWG). If you were using a thicker wire like 12 AWG there would not be any difference. Most high-end speakers do not have 2 sets of binding posts because they assume the owner will also spend a few extra bucks on proper low-resistance cables.
So glad to hear about biamping. Looks like mainstream? Sanyo made biamp speakers and amp for car audio starting in late 70's. I quad amp now for the very least.
People that biwire have to actually remove the bridge on their Speakers. I don't understand why they would think something changed.
I bi-wire everything! Even my shoes. 🤓
😂😂😂
I bi wire my coffee machine , just to get a double espresso at once.
Active tri-amping my DIY speakers (Eton 12" woofer, Accuton C2-90 midrange and Accuton C2-30 tweeter) here with a Classé CAV-150 (6 channel HT power amp) and a DEQX DSP based cross over and room correction preamp. Amazing results. It stopped my search for the holy grail.
Now working on an additional subwoofer (Precision devices PD2150) with it's own DSP to see if a proper bass extension could bring more spatiality in the stereo imaging.
One point of feedback on passive bi-amping: the video collapses two different situations. One is the situation that you remove the jumpers from the dual binding posts of existing speakers, and the other situation is the integration of bass systems (subwoofers) to existing speakers.
In case of situation one, I would say that bi-amping is a waste of money. It may yield some advantages, but these will not be justified by the investment. E.g. the amp for the highs is still dealing with the voltage swings of the LF signal. Also the passive filters with all their disadvantages are still in use. In case of a set up from scratch they also need to be payed. It's like putting a bigger engine in your car and leave the handbrake on. As said in the video (and I concur) a good passive filter is very costly and very hard to design. On top of the marginal gains, the additional complexity of the resulting system will also introduce new issues due to the fact that no two amps are exactly the same.
In case of situation two, big advantages are to be gotten. Integrating a passive subwoofer (as far as they exist) is nearly impossible to pull of successfully. Here, acitve amplification and active filtering for the subwoofer is the way to go. Hence the big offering of such subwoofers on the marketplace.
Just my 20 cents.
Thanks for the helpful information!
I'm bi-wiring my Legacy Audio Studio HD's with a pair of Emotiva XPA- 100 mono block amps. Didn't hear a bit of difference, but it looks cool :-p.
Cool video. I think what you mentioned near the end of the video is the way to go... which is to use a dedicated mono block amp for each left and right speakers. Or in my case a 3 channel amp separate for just the front 3 channels.. I have my speakers biwired currently.
Love this video. I am now bi-amping (horizontal, passive) my new Klipsch RP-6000F II towers for my front channels using my Demon AVR's pre-outs and some audioquest RCA splitters and the sound is amazing. I'm using 2 very similar external stereo amps but the one with higher power is connected to the low freq network of course. The AVR itself is powering center, surrounds, back surrounds and height channels for my 7.1.4 home theater. Eventually I'd like to pre-out my center channel and power it externally but there's always more to do...
I have a Marantz NR1604, which is Bi-Amp capable. I had some extra wire so I thought I would give it a try. I can honestly say I don't really hear any difference.
Great video as always by the way.
Bi-amping may just be a simple way to solve the issue of power limitations in the wall outlets of some developing countries: my country's 230V and 16A -3,680W- standard household wall outlet has a lot more sustained juice than 110V and 15A -1,650W- but in order to hear the difference you need music that can demonstrate your amplifier's limitations through realistic live volumes and sustained bass content in there that is able to drain the amplifier's power reserve fast enough. And as each amplifier still amplifies the entire frequency range, you may need to move the crossover from inside the speaker to before the power amplifier layer or the benefit will be marginal. And bi-amping may be a way to double up on damping, but again, to become audible this requires music and speakers that reveal the difference, and potentially the cross-over shift. Bi-cabling might help relay your power amplifier's power to the speakers, if the amplifier has the juice and the speakers can handle that. My power amp can give 60A per channel and the standard figure 8 cable is really not good enough for that, provided you have music and volumes that drive the amplifier towards the 60A per channel and your speakers don't get toasted long before the 60A.
As hearing and deciBels are logarithmic, the factor 2.23 difference between 3,680W and 1,650W is less dramatic, by the way, than it looks at first sight, and it will only impact audio quality when sustained loud low bass music is present in what we listen to (assuming a power stage design that can benefit from the 230V power because a design maximized for the 110V situation that only has a 230V transformer instead of a 110V one will not benefit here).
You are always great to listen to. Thanks for the videos
I know this is a late question, but I keep getting conflicting responses. It is a biamping question. I have two tower speakers that I built myself from kits. The speakers were also available assembled. VMPS Super Towers from way back. The speakers are bi-ampable using a toggle switch on the back of the speaker that completely electrically separates the woofers from the mids and tweeters. I currently use an amp that has a good amount of power...also old school. A Carver PM1200, that outputs about 460 watts/ch RMS 20--20kHz, 8 ohms at clipping. In the large room I have, it will occasionally clip with large transients. Verifiable by an LED that indicates actual clipping.
Now for the question. I want more power, but without spending any more money. I also have a second identical Carver PM1200. If I connect one to the woofers and one to the mids and tweeters using the bi-amp toggle switch then I am powering each set of drivers with different amps.
The question is....do I get the additive effects of more power since I am using passive crossovers AFTER the amp, as opposed to active crossovers BEFORE the amp? I have had people tell me NO because each amp is getting a full range INPUT. I have had people say YES because although they are getting full range input, the output is only loaded with its respective frequencies as determined by the crossovers. I have had people say NO because you can still "clip" an amp that's not even connected to any load (they mention something about voltage vs current) which is "proven" by the LED's still moving and the clipping LED still activating.
I know for sure this is simply an electrical concept defined by well know laws, nothing mysterious. But I think I have yet to find a person knowledgeable in electricity/electronics AND audio reproduction.
Gene...what do you think?
What kind of Power Specs do you consider a Whimpy reciever? 7x120?
Clearly, the value in bi-amping is in giving audio addicts the opportunity to throw more thousands at the hobby in the fruitless pursuit of unobtainable perfection.
Bi-amplification is a common practice in setting up most professional sound systems. There are even systems where the different speakers used require 3 or more amps to run such speaker boxes. It is not uncommon to see professional rigs run a 4 way, 5 way or as much as 6 way crossover systems to channel the right signal to the various different types of speaker drivers. Me personally I do not see an advantage to bi-wire a speaker but bi-amping a speaker has many advantages especially with systems consisting active crossover networks at the line level side of the amps.
Actually bi-amping works if you have extra channels in your amp that you can use. I biamped my klipsch rf82's front speakers to emotiva monoblock 7 channel power amp. Its 300watts per channel at 8ohms. I noticed a big difference in sound, more powerful and loud. I tried also biwire which i did not noticed any difference in sound on my klipsch rf82 tower speakers. So bi-amping really works!!!
I can tell you are not truly Operating Thetans. Xenu revealed that bi-wiring reduces the current's drag coefficient by a factor of 7 semi-farads per foot, which is especially effective when one is using francium cables. It is sad that you do not know this.
I have a "horizontal" bi-amp set-up using a Hafler XL-280 for the top end and a Phase Linear DRS-900 for the bottom with a POLK AUDIO SRS-SDA system. I use the passive cross-overs (which Polk recommends). I have tried an active SAE crossover without bypassing the internal passive network in an attempt to add more dynamic range to my amps. I found that doing this messes with the "inter-aural cross-talk cancellation" feature of the system because of the inevitable phase-shift of the active cross-over, even if the cross-over is set to roll-off the frequency extremes (easily seen on the scope). I do find however, that bi-amping does increase the dynamic range slightly. As a side note, anybody who has these type of speakers that are inter-connected because of the SDA, SHOULD NOT bi-amp in the vertical mode (common ground amps are needed) unless you have a special transformer inter-connect cable made by Polk. If you do not observe this caution, you WILL HAVE A BAD DAY! CHEERS!
Thank you for making these videos. I have found them very educational. While I agree with most points you made I have had different experiences. I have found that bi-wiring is an audible improvement in my system. I have a Vandersteen speakers and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. I think one plausible theory as to why I was able to hear a difference is that the load across the mid/treble wires is much less than the bass wires which may lead to less distortion across the mid/treble wires. In regards to bi-amping though an AVR, I was not able to hear any benefit in my system. I think that unless your AVR has discrete amplifiers with separate transformers per channel you are just pulling power from the same power source effectively just bi-wiring your speakers. Thanks again for the videos and all of your hard work!
Green Guitar That's great that you prefer biwiring however the "load' across the cables in insignificantly difference for single vs bi-wiring. Most AVR's do have discrete amplification but their power supplies typically aren't as robust as your Emotiva amp.
About to run an active electronic crossover by DBX for 3 way towers via 3 separate amplifiers. I was planning on keeping the passive factory crossovers in place but perhaps I should bypass them? thoughts? thanks!
Thanks for doing this guys! I've always wondered. As always, thanks for the no BS education.
You can hear the difference dude, they're full of shit the music is most definitely more clear
@@Crazytownmetal6 experimented with bi-wiring, did not hear any difference, switched back to single wire.
I have a DM D605 S2 driven by PM6005 and I was instantly able to hear a great deal of improvement in my low frequency.. the funny thing i didn't had any cables connected to the LFE just the speaker cables.. and just before the change I crimped the biwiring cable and made it as a bi amp cable. not sure if crimping did the job or bi amping did the magic. will leave comment when i have further updates.
I like watching the older videos just to see Hugo! Wonder if hugo is involved with the channel still🤔?
This was a really informative video. It explained what I have always wanted to know about this subject. One question; if you have a sub would it be of any benefit to bi amp the low frequency section of the speaker? Excellent video.
Thank you guys for your voice of reason in this age of audio snake oil. If a cable diameter is large enough and it's reasonably short there is no difference between bi-wiring and a single cable. If a thin and long cable has to be used then bi-wiring might help as the wire impedance will affect the bass signal path only leaving the mid-high frequencies unaffected. But then who would use thin long wires for a high current speaker setup except in emergency? I've been using a regular 50 cent per foot 14 ga braided copper wire for ages and my pretty decent setup sounds great. Reliable speaker wire connection is far more important than the bi-wiring for instance, and the very low amp output impedance too.
I did the bi-amping, and the sound - even after recalibrating the speakers - was muddy: powerful, but imprecize bass, very harsh highs, mid was not creating any room. One cable is a shorter 2,5mm2 cross surface I used for the highs, the other one is a longer 4mm2 cross surface that I used for the lows.
Is it the amp that is crappy, or the cables really have to have the same properties to do bi-amping?
Of course, I removed the interconnecting wires between the speaker poles to keep the right impedance.
Out of curiousity, I swapped the pairs in between high and low posts, and it didn't really do much difference, I expected hissing or lost sound due to filters of the speaker.
Any tip? I have a Pioneer SC-LX88, I used the Top middle for highs, Front for lows as per the manual.
I had a bi-amp system that had the 6SN7 driving two 245 triodes, one triode for both the tweeter and mid-range and the other for woofer. The bass was weak so I decided to build a "no balls no glory" 833-A SET for the woofers. The first thing I did was wire the tweeter to one 245 and the other to the mid-range which sounded much clearer that I had ever heard. I got the woofers in phase with the mid-range by trying reversing the polarity on the input transformer (Hammond 126B driven by a 245) and I put a volume control on it to keep the 833-As from being louder than the mid-range. The 833-A seems to have made my subwoofers unnecessary at least for music. All the low frequency energy that I hear in a concert hall is now in my listening room.
The 833-A is not that difficult a circuit to build. Run it at 1000 Volts on the plate through a Hammond 1642 output transformer and filter the DC it takes to heat the cathodes with automotive digital 4.5 Farad capacitors that must be pre-charged before you shoot the power to heat the 10 Amp 10 Volt cathodes, a 10 Volt 20 Amp transformer, a bridge rectifier rated at 25 Amps, a 0.1 Ohm wire-wound dropping resistor rated at 75 watts (which only cost pocket change more than 15 Watts and will not be so damn hot when it runs) a 20 Amp fuse, and a relay that disconnects the 833-A cathode when the system is shut off. When it is shut off, keep the capacitors charged with a cheap 9 volt DC converter through 100 Ohms.
By the way, I have been using your prioritization bodybuilding program and it is excelsior that you also tinker with sound systems.
I did an active tri-amp on my klipsch forte II's. Took a little modification, but holy smokes! Just amazing. You have no idea until you have heard something like that. I can not believe that there is not more custom active speaker systems.
simply speaking, bi-wiring worked for my amp and speakers with noticeable difference.
placebo effect without any doubt.
It's not a placebo effect like some people say you're right you can hear itI buy amping and bi wire every stereo I've ever owned if it's capable.My Klipsch F1 you can definitely tell the difference and they freaking Rock
Well the single stereo amp output a + b bi wire connection is not correct? a: LF b: HF
On a similar topic, can I ask your opinion on this. I have 8ohm speakers that with a sensitivity of 90dB, so relatively easy to drive. I’ve had them bi-amped for a long time and I did notice an improvement in the sound when I switched to bi-amping them. They are currently the front L&R speakers in my AV setup. The receiver is a Marantz SR7015, so enough power for them, even with 7other speakers being powered. My question is, if I was to get a stereo power amplifier, for just these front 2 speakers with more power than the Marantz can give to them, would the extra power be beneficial in sound quality over the my current setup, if I am not able to bi-amp them from the dedicated stereo power amplifier? In a nutshell, do you think the current bi-amp setup would be more beneficial to sound quality than single amp setup with more power?
What about using 2 different wires to bi-wire? A wire that produces good highs for the treble and good bass cable for the low end?
You guys are so funny. Enjoying the videos. Good information. Thanks a lot!
Gene, I have an old Onkyo TX-NR801 which is a 7.1. I'm only set up for 5.1 due to room size constraints, but it's driving a pr. of Polk Ri10.
It sounds as if I can use the surround back terminals for bi-amping. Please get back if you have any other suggestions.
I am bi-amping a pair of svs ultra towers using a onkyo tx-nr1030. I'm also using a ultra center and ultra rears. I bought the tx-nr1030 over the tx-nr838 because the power supply is twice the size eleven pounds heavier to be exact. I did notice better lows and impact during movies wile bi-amped. I will be using an Emotiva mono block for the center to free up the avr. I'm sure that will help the avr put more power to the other channels. I will be buying more amps as I can afford. I'm also using Radio shack 12 gauge copper/silver wire no voodoo for me!
A vintage question: I'm bi-amping a pair of Linn Saras with a Nad 3020 (tweeters) and a Nikko Alpha II power amp (woofers). Am I correct in calling this "passive bi-amping"? Even if the crossover innards of the Linns are magically activating, an "active bi-amping" scenario necessitates - by definition - an active crossover somewhere upstream of the power amps' inputs, eh?
Cheers, and nice vid.
There is an error in one of your assumptions you said the signal sums at the junction by the amp which it does, but from there on, Only High-frequency current flows down the wire to the Tweeter and only low-frequency current flows down the wire to the Bass speaker, its the current that produces the magnetic field which interacts with the insulation and space around it, which influences the sound. Therefore the signals are flowing separately and don't interact with each other, indeed some people use different wire for the High Frequency and the Bass, taking advantages of different wire characteristics.
I agree that going over the top for minute gains is poor for the pocket and pointless but depending on cables used some golden-eared people will probably be convinced they can hear the difference and if they do there are good reasons.
That's a myth. There is still fullrange current down both wires. Neither crossover is a brickwall. The measurable differences between single vs biwiring are miniscule and the biggest benefit is reduce DC resistance by lowering the overall gauge.
@@Audioholics That is incorrect. Full range current is not passing down each wire. It's true that each crossover isn't a "brickwall", but the HF crossover will severely attenuate low frequency current. Likewise the LF crossover will attenuate HF current. In a biwire setup, the cable between the amplifier and bass driver will be carrying quite a lot more current than the cable to the tweeter when full range music is being played (a lot more current is required to drive a bass speaker compared to a tweeter at a given volume level). Fullrange current passing through a tweeter would very likely damage it at fairly modest volume levels, the high pass filter prevents this from happening by preventing low frequency current passing through the tweeter.
Question… I have bi Wired speakers but I only use them single wired. Does is matter use the upper or lower entry on the speaker unit?
If you have external amps on an AVR for a 5.1.2, would you consider using the AVRs integrated amps to biamp the highs?
No mostly because the gains likely won't match between dissimilar amps. I'd instead use the internal AVR amps to power other zones.
my speakers are max 180w,i use 180w per channel amp,So if i bi amp them with the same amp because there are free chanels on it,will it max the power ? i dont want to burn my speakers,or ill be fine ?
What a coincidence! I added an active crossover to a Denon 5700 to drive some big JBL Pro cabinets. I'll never go back to passive crossovers. Biamping with active crossovers is the short path to Ultimate Smug.
On the 5700, the 5803 (yeah, I have one too), and probably others, the pre-amped, intermediate level, input signal for each channel is routed right up there on top of the two output boards. Most of the COTS active crossover designs will work just fine at those signal levels, so it's pretty easy to wire one in (if you know what you're doing!). I used the original Surr-R and Surr-L amps for the JBL's HF horn stacks. The only hard part is finding room for an active crossover board inside a Denon, away from the power transformer. Denon is stingy with space.
Hey Guys great video, I have a pair of polk cti3 bookshelf speakers as fronts for my ht. i noticed they are capable of bi amping and also noticed my denon x2000 only supports minimum 6 ohms per channel would biamping be suitable here so that i dont fry my amp. thanks
Hi! I don’t know if you guys are still monitoring this thread. I bought this cable that the vendor is phasing out, and I’m wondering if I should buy a second pair of cables before that happens, because otherwise I won’t be able to buy another set of similar cables anymore.
I have a Marantz CR612 and a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 40. The Marantz manages to move the Q Acoustics well, but I’m wondering if I could get better Sonics out of my speakers if I took advantage of the 4 built in amplifiers by doing passive BI-amping?
Again my concern has more to do with the inability to find a similar set of cables in a few years time when the product is no more available. What do you guys think?
I find it funny, this all about audio and how clean it can be, man the background hum is what I would thought you would have picked up on. My vote is for biamp....
7:57 oke question? What if you have an active crossover with DSP, bi-amping, but don’t bipass the passive crossover (just use the terminals on the back of the speakers. What are your opinions on this? (My passive crossovers are still there, just my amps are getting, at a correct crossover frequency for the speakers, less of the signal to amp for the respective mid-high/bass?)
I have B&W801S3 so they go low, I don’t play hard, just want detail. And don’t fancy opening up the speakers to rip out the crossovers.
I would avoid using active filters on top of a passive crossover. You can cause more harm than good by cascading like that.
@@Audioholics I’m not sure I understand, essentially both amps are only getting just a bit more than the frequency response signal that would naturally be filtered out by the crossover in the speakers. It may not help the speakers but wouldn’t it benefit the amps from only having to deal with part of the signal?
Maybe my explanation wasn’t clear. I run my source to my pre-amp, pre amp to my mini DSP, which has (as well as Dirac) the crossover frequencies set to just beyond the frequencies of the passive crossover in my speakers. That feeds two sets of stereo power amps. One is wired to the LF terminals, and the other is wired to the HF terminal (jumper removed ofcourse).
My aim was not to improve the crossover as such, mainly to only have the amps receive the signal relevant to the element of the speaker is was powering.
can you put a passive high pass in front of one amp and a passive low pass in front of the other?
The only time that I did any sort of by wiring was when I had a technics SCEH600 back in the 1990s. The amplifier actually had terminals for both the high section and the lower section of each speaker cabinet.
I have to say, I didn’t actually notice any difference between that set up and another pair of speakers that I had at the time that were a single input at the speaker and.
Basically, what I am trying to say, is, I don’t see the point of by wiring in a domestic set up.
Whether it would be beneficial in a commercial set up, I don’t know. At the moment, I have a pair of speakers that are not by wired, I have to say, I’m very satisfied with them. Just for your reference, they are the debut 5.2 from Elac. Thanks for the video, most informative. 😁
bi-amp (2 separate amps) but you can adjust the volume for both drivers separately, even the little differences is a huge advantage?
What happens when you use separate cables in an A and B Treble to speaker A and Bass to Speaker B ?
I have an pioneer sc-61 Elite amp. My question is this.There is a feature for a-b speaker set-up, I can bi-amp the rear surround channels to the front left and right. Does this increase the watts to 300 watts rms?
Hi guys. Nice video. I have a question about bi-amping. Do I need to use Y-cables to split the signal to each amp? If so, any signal/quality loss by splitting the signal?
Just some thoughts on Bi Wiring, Obviously if you bi-wire with say 14 ga, this is about equivalent to a single 11 ga cable. Therefore, you may expect some improvement going from a single 14 ga to a bi-wire 14 ga simply because you have heavier conductors. The other thing is that bi-wiring eliminates the terminal jumpers. Well so what, that should be insignificant right? Well some people claim the jumpers that came with their speakers are inadequate and swapping them out for a heavier cable jumper makes a difference. I don't know I haven't tried it. What I have tried though is using short thin cable as opposed to short thicker cable. In particular 1m of 18 ga a opposed to 1 m of 14 ga . Both may seem light weight to some, however in the case of 14 ga into 8 ohm, based on a 2% of load chart, I have run 7.5 m on an auditorium PA with very excellent results and at that length it is well under that 2%. This even drew glowing comment from a picky audiophile as to it being true sound reinforcement and a real achievement. The point being that if 14 ga is good for 7.5 m, there should be no problem with 18 ga over 1m and for some speakers I have, there is no problem at all. However, when it tried this on a pair of ProAc EBTs, there most definitely was a problem with listening fatigue and harshness. Swapping to 1m of 14 ga improved that vastly, making them much more pleasant to listen too. So, this experience leads me to be a bit more willing to view each situation as being different and therefore willing to accept that peoples reports of bad jumpers may actually be true. If that is the case, bi-wiring would resolve it but equally, improving the jumper may do so as well, providing the cable is also adequate. It's a case of fixing the worst part of a system yields the most obvious improvement but upgrading anything else will likely be undetectable. I am no longer willing to accept that answers can be so cut and dried. There are always underlying assumptions in these answers like, the existing cable is adequate for the job and the equipment is of a certain quality and including stable impedance load across the spectrum. These things are just sometimes not the case. So, after 30 years managing PA on a very tight to non existent budget trying to do the almost impossible with aging vintage gear the truth seems to be, "well it depends".
Hi guys good video. I just inherited a Yamaha home theatre receiver of the 1990 and a pair of Infinity Kappa 6.1 speakers. All good but bass is to strong. I just can't control it. I was thinking of bi-amping with my old Marantz so that I can control bass better. BUT how the hell you connect the two amplifiers?
Interesting video . I have a pair of canton ergo 900 dc . Would they benefit from bi amping? I know canton makes the RCL-A which is similar but is partially active having a built in amp for the woofers.
"QUESTION ... could i bi-amp my TRIANGLE antal esw EVEN IF I HEAR SOME SOUND ON THE TWEETER ( very little...) WHEN I ONLY PLUG THE BASS CONNECTORS ???..( whitout the metal brackets of course :)).. with two different amp do you think it gonna burn both amp ?? intermodulation crossovers problem ??..thank for the answer !! "
Dr Spock was listening intently, I think he was very impressed!
"Mr." Spock to you, Sir.
But seriously I just bought a pair of Kef R 11s they are fully broken in, about 4 months old and I'm thinking of bi amping with a Denon 4308ci you think it's worth the trouble.. thanks in advance
My experience with bi amping was with a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i speakers, a Carver avr100 reciever, and an Adcom gfa5500 power amp. Had pre amp out on the Carver, hooked the Carver to the mid/high frequency. And I figured the Adcom would handle the Bass better. Hooked up everything and put in a CD and WoW it was Magic, detail separation and tight forceful bass. The never sounded better. 350 watts , 150 from the Carver and 200 from the Adcom. They were effortless, that was an eye opener.
Great article guys. Thanks
@ 3:02
Lol
Thanks for all your great advice over the years. Part 1: Your comments on active crossovers got me thinking. I have 'biampable' Paradigm Studio 100's v5 LRC, 4 Crown 200W/Ch pro amps that can be bridged to 400W, run by Pioneer Elite SC-77 (supports biamping). Remaining speaker pairs are F Height, Side and Rear Surrounds in a dedicated theater room. Currently running LRC on the bridged amps (no bi-amp), FH on the other crown run stereo and the side/rear are from the receiver. I use the 77's room correction and the THX cinema setting. Also have 2 subs on the front wall in between the LRC. The SC-77 supports biamping LRC but only 5.1. Is it worthwhile adding active crossover between the receiver and the Crowns for the LRC's? Any recommendation on which units to buy? Part 2: Will you be testing the new Hsu and SVS subs soon? Thanks for your help!
I don't bi-wire because the cost doesn't quite justify the improvement but I have heard the difference. The low output impedance of the amp stops the back emf from the woofer from getting into the tweeter.
Good video. would a NAD T785 receiver be a good receiver to bi-amp? it has two tororidal power supply's..
I still have a question...I no longer have the gold brackets that came with the speaker to connect LF to HF. Can I just put a small speaker wire into each positive & negative, if I now only have one speaker cable coming from the AVR? Hope I explained this clearly...thks
I’m on the spectrum of extremist audiophile, but I may be doing things that may not work in my room, my room is 13x25, centre speaker is Sinclair st4, as are the main fronts that come out of a pioneer vsx-1018ah, which is bi amped(low level outputs) with an amc 2n100-5, this powers my 2nd set of fronts(custom built to get the missing frequencies of the Sinclair) as will as a set of 8” Polk audio subs, fronts and centre are separated by 5 feet, and 15 feet to the listening stage, in the rear I have a set fidek that are frequency reduced by a quest 8” sub passive filter, the sub for the system also resides under this sub, and is a 12” custom for a room bias resonate frequency, and thy are 10 feet from the listening stage, represented by two lazyboy recliners. Comments? Recommendations?
Informative as always
Just purchased a vintage pair of cornwalls with Crites crossovers for a 2 channel short run new system for (digital) jazz music. What SS or tube amp do you suggest? Have a Newforce 200 that's 80 wpc and a Darkvoice tube or Aune SS headphone amp that could function as preamps.
I can sum this much too long video up very quickly by my experience.
Bi wiring can work, Ive done this and the sound was different when bi wired, whether its better is uto the individual.
Bi amping is without doubt , better. I currently bi amp , it adds more detail and separation , I woukd thoroughly recommend a 6mm thick multi strand copper speaker cable , no need for expensive boutique cables, this will add imaging .
There you go. Simple.
Leave this to someone who actually knows the physics. I do not mean these guys btw
Do you have a Car SQ system?
Question, if you take for example audio quest cables and split them into bi-wire you now are running 1/2 the gauge to each section. So couldn’t that effect the performance negatively? I have seen long cable with too low of a gauge “choke the bass” which I guess is from higher resistances
Also Bryston 7B amps have a parallel and serial mode . They state parallel mode is for bi-wiring and less than 4 ohm loads. But no manufacturer tells you what the impedance is for the high side or the low side. Soo how would you know?
As far as bi-amping, I have used higher power amplifiers on the woofers because I prefer more bass. And it worked well.