Listening to Gene always amazes me, his knowledge of audio is beyond anything I've ever heard. Thank you Gene even though this video is 8 years old. (still useful)
I recently did turn my classic Dahlquist DQ10s into an active system using four amps and an electronic crossover. The results were outstanding in clarity, detail, control, bass . . . pretty much everything. It was an undaunting task . . . but also I knew that if I succeeded, my time and efforts would be greatly rewarded . . . and they were! I would only recommend this to someone, who totally understands crossovers, an active system, and has the courage to dive into this genre. I really do hear things in the recordings that I did not before, and the sound quality is only limited by your own ears. I say this because once your room characteristics are corrected, the customization of the sound is totally up to you, which is a very nice feature. In my system, the electronic crossover is hooked into the router of my internet; therefore, I am able to control my laptop wirelessly, while sitting in the sweet spot adjusting all the features in live time. SWEET!
I turned on bi-amp on my Onkyo with Klipsch speakers. Not much difference but a very small amount. What I ended up doing was using the bi-amp to drive another set of speakers that are on a shelf higher up. This increased the sound nominally but most importantly, it lifted the sound stage. The best thing that I ever did. So now I'm running R-26FA with RP-600M speakers when using 2 channel. Awesome immersion. Just floor speakers place the vocals at waist height. Now they're at standing height which feels natural if you were listening to music in person. Unless you're listening to a person 4 feet tall.
What about when bi amping with a reciever? There is a difference in power handling between the high mid drivers and the low driver. what do you do about that situation? I'm having troubles finding this information through cerwin vega which is my speaker brand. I don't want to damage my hf and mid drivers with too much power. 2 cerwin vega xls 215 pioneer 1523-k reciever planning to bi amp like I did with my old setup.
I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i and I had a Carver AVR 100 receiver 150 watts a channel and an Adcom GFA5500 at 200 watts a channel used the Adcom for the bass and the Carver for the mid and high frequency. They sounded amazing, wish I still had those speakers. Good video Gene
Man is it a breath of fresh air to see an audio related channel both not trying to sell something and also not spreading what can only be called "audiophile science"
A common connection will not have an impedance difference. You will only see an impedance difference if you run the wires to separate channels. Think about it!!!! But you did a better job of covering this subject than most of the other videos I've seen.
I'm disappointed that this video has more downvotes than a charlatan's video (which was posted more recently, but has a similar number of upvotes too). Truth loses, salesmanship wins. Keep it up with these accurate videos.
Oh man, i just got through the video. I love that you guys looped the outputs back into itself on the 5803 - I did exactly this with a 2803 (not as high end but the same model year/same exact process). I built my own active crossover tailored to 70s large advents (similar to powered advents which I also have a pair of) and used 4 of the amp channels on that denon the same way you did. The crossover i built also had a built in linkwitz transform to add some gain down low for flatter frequency response (didn't have much problem with the extra power at low frequencies because it didn't need much gain to extend the -3 point down to about 25hz). The final evolution of the system was that crossover, and a Bryston 4B and a Bryston 2B in a horizontal biamping config, so I had about 100WPC into the tweeters and 400WPC into the woofers, with a stacked large advent setup. It was pretty kickass but thats a lot of speaker real estate, complicated wiring/power up procedure, and ultimately not enough output at 20-30hz to handle movies with that much gain and no additional sub. Pretty amazing quality for music though with the stacked set up. Since switched to Mackie hr824s and an HSU ULS-15 sub for my main audio system - that still gives me biamping and the ULS-15 is much more suited to very low frequency output than the four advent woofers. Plus the tweeter is absolutely better on the Mackies.
Great video, as always. I know this is an older video, but I keep coming back to it to copy the link to answer questions people still ask on the forums and on some of the FB groups I belong to. Appreciate the great explanations!!
Cool video. I think what you mentioned near the end of the video is the way to go... which is to use a dedicated mono block amp for each left and right speakers. Or in my case a 3 channel amp separate for just the front 3 channels.. I have my speakers biwired currently.
You can also use a higher power amp on the lows to get more bass. Also, some amplifiers have dual outputs for connecting your speakers with bi-wired cables with a “series/parallel” switch.
Active tri-amping my DIY speakers (Eton 12" woofer, Accuton C2-90 midrange and Accuton C2-30 tweeter) here with a Classé CAV-150 (6 channel HT power amp) and a DEQX DSP based cross over and room correction preamp. Amazing results. It stopped my search for the holy grail. Now working on an additional subwoofer (Precision devices PD2150) with it's own DSP to see if a proper bass extension could bring more spatiality in the stereo imaging. One point of feedback on passive bi-amping: the video collapses two different situations. One is the situation that you remove the jumpers from the dual binding posts of existing speakers, and the other situation is the integration of bass systems (subwoofers) to existing speakers. In case of situation one, I would say that bi-amping is a waste of money. It may yield some advantages, but these will not be justified by the investment. E.g. the amp for the highs is still dealing with the voltage swings of the LF signal. Also the passive filters with all their disadvantages are still in use. In case of a set up from scratch they also need to be payed. It's like putting a bigger engine in your car and leave the handbrake on. As said in the video (and I concur) a good passive filter is very costly and very hard to design. On top of the marginal gains, the additional complexity of the resulting system will also introduce new issues due to the fact that no two amps are exactly the same. In case of situation two, big advantages are to be gotten. Integrating a passive subwoofer (as far as they exist) is nearly impossible to pull of successfully. Here, acitve amplification and active filtering for the subwoofer is the way to go. Hence the big offering of such subwoofers on the marketplace. Just my 20 cents.
Having recently tried biwiring my BnW speakers (which I WAS very skeptical about!), I was amazed at how the sound was transformed by orders of magnitude. I heard vocals that I’d never noticed previously. The proof is in the listening! Maybe it’s manufacturer- or product/ setup dependent. But with my (SINGLE-amp!) gear, it worked.
Hi. I recently did the same and noticed a difference. Heard things never heard before. Posted a comment on another video and got rubbished as they refused to believe that it makes a difference. I like the increased musical listening.
Thanks for the video and much truth spoken 👍🏻. One thing I would mention is the jumpers or links on bi-wire speakers do in many case come supplied with gold plated metal plates or bars.... I've found it better where possible to replace these with jumpers made from the same cable as that run from the amp.
I have a Marantz NR1604, which is Bi-Amp capable. I had some extra wire so I thought I would give it a try. I can honestly say I don't really hear any difference. Great video as always by the way.
You made a interesting comment early on. I have paralleled 2 pairs of Bookshelf Speakers connected to my Denon DRA-800H Receiver connected to the A or B speaker connection. Both pairs are 8 ohms : 1 pair Elac Reference 6.2s and 1 pair of Fluances Signature Series Bookshelf speakers. They "play" very nicely together , filling my finished basement "Studio" created in the COVID Hibernation. I then added another pair of Bookshelf speakers to the A connection , playing in the front of the room. Another pair of Elac Debut 6.2s (also 8 ohms). Per advice from on line Audiophile Blogs, I stopped that after the Denon Receiver shut down (for Overheating and circuitry overload protection). I have since added another Integrated IOTA SA3 unit running with an Emotiva A-300 Amp. Leaving the paralleled speakers on the Denon , but connecting the other Elacs to the IOTA unit. I have now added yet another pair of Bookshelf speakers : Emotiva B1+s. They are connected to the Emotiva A-300. No problems with getting too warm or overload. When I run this setup , playing with the loudness controls between the 2 configurations, I am able to achieve a Concert Hall Sound. I know this is Anti-Audiophile way of doing things, but Hell I'm 69 YO , retired, and love My Music to listen to and play my renewed passion of drums (after a 50 year Hiatus ). Please comment accordingly. I appreciate all comments. FYI. I had the Elac Debuts and the Fluances (purchased in mid 2020), purchased the Elac References in December 2020, and now the Emotiva's just a couple of weeks ago. I am tempted with Trading the B1+s for T1+ (floor standing 3 way speakers ).
So glad to hear about biamping. Looks like mainstream? Sanyo made biamp speakers and amp for car audio starting in late 70's. I quad amp now for the very least.
Love this video. I am now bi-amping (horizontal, passive) my new Klipsch RP-6000F II towers for my front channels using my Demon AVR's pre-outs and some audioquest RCA splitters and the sound is amazing. I'm using 2 very similar external stereo amps but the one with higher power is connected to the low freq network of course. The AVR itself is powering center, surrounds, back surrounds and height channels for my 7.1.4 home theater. Eventually I'd like to pre-out my center channel and power it externally but there's always more to do...
Thank you guys for your voice of reason in this age of audio snake oil. If a cable diameter is large enough and it's reasonably short there is no difference between bi-wiring and a single cable. If a thin and long cable has to be used then bi-wiring might help as the wire impedance will affect the bass signal path only leaving the mid-high frequencies unaffected. But then who would use thin long wires for a high current speaker setup except in emergency? I've been using a regular 50 cent per foot 14 ga braided copper wire for ages and my pretty decent setup sounds great. Reliable speaker wire connection is far more important than the bi-wiring for instance, and the very low amp output impedance too.
Thank you for making these videos. I have found them very educational. While I agree with most points you made I have had different experiences. I have found that bi-wiring is an audible improvement in my system. I have a Vandersteen speakers and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. I think one plausible theory as to why I was able to hear a difference is that the load across the mid/treble wires is much less than the bass wires which may lead to less distortion across the mid/treble wires. In regards to bi-amping though an AVR, I was not able to hear any benefit in my system. I think that unless your AVR has discrete amplifiers with separate transformers per channel you are just pulling power from the same power source effectively just bi-wiring your speakers. Thanks again for the videos and all of your hard work!
Green Guitar That's great that you prefer biwiring however the "load' across the cables in insignificantly difference for single vs bi-wiring. Most AVR's do have discrete amplification but their power supplies typically aren't as robust as your Emotiva amp.
A few years ago I upgraded to a pair of substantial floorstanders. Each cabinet contains 3 200mm low frequency drivers, 1 165mm mid range driver and a 25mm tweeter.organised in a 3-way configuration. I drive them with a pair of 300w monoblocks. To my personal taste, I felt the mid range would benefit from a little more body and the top end, more presence. For some time I’ve contemplated passive bi-wiring. Everyone I discussed this with told me it was a bad idea, they said active bi-amping was a better option and I can see the logic in their advice. But, as you pointed out, active bi-amping is a complex undertaking. So, I went down the passive route. I purchased a stereo power amp reputed for it’s detail retrieval whilst maintaining good tonal density. In the sane price bracket as my monoblocks vut not quite as powerful. Installation was a breeze, as my preamp has 2 sets of XLR outputs, powered simultaneously. The monoblocks and power amp had the same DB gain. I used identical speaker cable and identical cable lengths for both. I have the monoblocks powering the 6 200mm low frequency drivers and the power amp powering the mid and high frequency drivers. I really didn’t know what to expect. Well now the mid range is fuller, with far more detail. The highs are slightly more forward and airy. Applause sounds like applause, not like rain on a tin roof. Symbols sound like symbols, not like spoons. That maybe a slight exaggeration, but you get the picture. The bass is tight. Is well textured and defined, it carrie’s far more heft. So much so, that I have had to turn the gain down on my active subs! My normal listening level is around 79db, because I have neighbours. At this volume the audio reproduction is relaxed, effortless and transparent. The results are worth the effort. I have spent just under £11000 on amplification. The preamp, monoblocks and power amp. The question has to be, had I spent &11000 on a single higher end amp, would the benefits be greater?
hard to tell at that volume level. We added external analog crossovers and tri amped large PA speakers (horn tweeter, horn mids, and dual 15 woofers) and certainly was very easy to tell at loud club levels how much better it sounded with one amp channel for each element. Especially the bass because PA system like that don't play real low on the subs so we would crossover at 100hz to the subs then rolloff the subs at 40hz.
I did an active tri-amp on my klipsch forte II's. Took a little modification, but holy smokes! Just amazing. You have no idea until you have heard something like that. I can not believe that there is not more custom active speaker systems.
I have a vintage Rotel RX-855 Receiver and a Rotel RB-850 Amplifier that I Bi-amp in mono(one amp to each speaker) with one set of posts on each speaker. This set up was designed this way and love it! They originally are 50wpc seperately and around 150wpc together.
Bi-amplification is a common practice in setting up most professional sound systems. There are even systems where the different speakers used require 3 or more amps to run such speaker boxes. It is not uncommon to see professional rigs run a 4 way, 5 way or as much as 6 way crossover systems to channel the right signal to the various different types of speaker drivers. Me personally I do not see an advantage to bi-wire a speaker but bi-amping a speaker has many advantages especially with systems consisting active crossover networks at the line level side of the amps.
Actually bi-amping works if you have extra channels in your amp that you can use. I biamped my klipsch rf82's front speakers to emotiva monoblock 7 channel power amp. Its 300watts per channel at 8ohms. I noticed a big difference in sound, more powerful and loud. I tried also biwire which i did not noticed any difference in sound on my klipsch rf82 tower speakers. So bi-amping really works!!!
I thought you were gonna say “ we’re not married” 😂😂🍻. It’s refreshing to see two macho men not ego tripping and just relaxing and being funny. Keep it up🍻
I find it funny, this all about audio and how clean it can be, man the background hum is what I would thought you would have picked up on. My vote is for biamp....
I had a bi-amp system that had the 6SN7 driving two 245 triodes, one triode for both the tweeter and mid-range and the other for woofer. The bass was weak so I decided to build a "no balls no glory" 833-A SET for the woofers. The first thing I did was wire the tweeter to one 245 and the other to the mid-range which sounded much clearer that I had ever heard. I got the woofers in phase with the mid-range by trying reversing the polarity on the input transformer (Hammond 126B driven by a 245) and I put a volume control on it to keep the 833-As from being louder than the mid-range. The 833-A seems to have made my subwoofers unnecessary at least for music. All the low frequency energy that I hear in a concert hall is now in my listening room. The 833-A is not that difficult a circuit to build. Run it at 1000 Volts on the plate through a Hammond 1642 output transformer and filter the DC it takes to heat the cathodes with automotive digital 4.5 Farad capacitors that must be pre-charged before you shoot the power to heat the 10 Amp 10 Volt cathodes, a 10 Volt 20 Amp transformer, a bridge rectifier rated at 25 Amps, a 0.1 Ohm wire-wound dropping resistor rated at 75 watts (which only cost pocket change more than 15 Watts and will not be so damn hot when it runs) a 20 Amp fuse, and a relay that disconnects the 833-A cathode when the system is shut off. When it is shut off, keep the capacitors charged with a cheap 9 volt DC converter through 100 Ohms. By the way, I have been using your prioritization bodybuilding program and it is excelsior that you also tinker with sound systems.
Im still confused on the biwiring signal path as your diagram doesnt show a crossover. You cant send an amps full range signal to a mid or tweeter without protection. Please explain. Thanks :)
Biwiring doesn't remove the crossover. The connection on the amp side is the same but the hpf and lpf are separated at the speaker side through 2 sets of cables.
@@Audioholics I've left a post to you on another of your videos about bi-wiring, but found this one which may be more appropriate to the point I have. At 4.00-4.10 you're are talking about the highs and lows being tied together at the amplifier end (Y point). You seem to be suggesting that because of this the 'signals' (current) flowing along each wire to the tweeter filter and along the woofer wire to the woofer filter are the same. Do you think they are? As you say the impedance of of the current source (amplifier) is extremely low compared to the drive unit it is feeding (typically 4-8 ohms). Now, a 50hz 'bass' current 'sees' about 7000 ohms of capacitive reactance due to the input series capacitor (about 4-5 microfarads in a typical Butterworth filter) along the tweeter wire, consequently almost no 50hz current will flow (any 'residual' will find a path to ground after the capacitor via the inductor). Now, the amplifier will 'see' negligible impedance ( just the 8 ohms of the woofer) in the woofer wire as the input series inductors of the woofer filter present a tiny inductive reactance at this frequency, and consequently the 50hz current will flow through the woofer. At, say, 10Khz the reverse is true and the amplifier will 'see' high impedance in the woofer wire, and low impedance in the tweeter wire and consequently flow from the Y split to the tweeter filter. All this will seem obvious to anyone with a decent grounding in Ohms Law in AC circuits. Would you confirm this is what you understand to happen. Bi-wire detractors try to use the argument that the signal current DOESN'T split at the amplifier end - for example M Zillch in his 'Bi-wiring: The Secret truth Revealed' TH-cam video, where he quotes you as backing him up! He seems impressed that you have a degree in electrical engineering.....overkill perhaps for such an elementary Ohm's/Kirchhoff's Laws problem!
By the way, I enjoy your videos and think they are spot on. I am glad to see someone in the field dispel the snake oil claims and use common sense in reporting on our passion for audio excellence.
I have a "horizontal" bi-amp set-up using a Hafler XL-280 for the top end and a Phase Linear DRS-900 for the bottom with a POLK AUDIO SRS-SDA system. I use the passive cross-overs (which Polk recommends). I have tried an active SAE crossover without bypassing the internal passive network in an attempt to add more dynamic range to my amps. I found that doing this messes with the "inter-aural cross-talk cancellation" feature of the system because of the inevitable phase-shift of the active cross-over, even if the cross-over is set to roll-off the frequency extremes (easily seen on the scope). I do find however, that bi-amping does increase the dynamic range slightly. As a side note, anybody who has these type of speakers that are inter-connected because of the SDA, SHOULD NOT bi-amp in the vertical mode (common ground amps are needed) unless you have a special transformer inter-connect cable made by Polk. If you do not observe this caution, you WILL HAVE A BAD DAY! CHEERS!
I didn't see why bi-wiring would work. But this afternoon I had nothing to do, and some speaker-cable left. So just to get rid of them I bi-wired my speakers. Somehow there's a lot of difference in the sound. I didn't expect that. I did a blind test with someone putting the extra wires on and off, and there's no doubt.
I was also curious and I just biwired my center speaker Polk706c, I definitely heard the difference!! Hard to explain but the clarity got even better and it feels like the center speaker is more alive. I guess it makes difference after all...
@@kenasaoka888 It's likely that you guys are using high-gauge wires (i.e. 16 AWG). If you were using a thicker wire like 12 AWG there would not be any difference. Most high-end speakers do not have 2 sets of binding posts because they assume the owner will also spend a few extra bucks on proper low-resistance cables.
I am bi-amping a pair of svs ultra towers using a onkyo tx-nr1030. I'm also using a ultra center and ultra rears. I bought the tx-nr1030 over the tx-nr838 because the power supply is twice the size eleven pounds heavier to be exact. I did notice better lows and impact during movies wile bi-amped. I will be using an Emotiva mono block for the center to free up the avr. I'm sure that will help the avr put more power to the other channels. I will be buying more amps as I can afford. I'm also using Radio shack 12 gauge copper/silver wire no voodoo for me!
Thanks for a very informative video! What was particularly eye-opening was your opinion that bi-wiring does not make a difference, simply because the two "halves" are tied-together at source. However, bi-amping DOES make a huge difference; and is particularly useful in systems (like mine) which dont include a subwoofer. I have used B&W 640i, Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 and (currently) the Quad 25-LClassic, bi-amped, sending LFE to the bass units in the towers, and found I dont really need a sub! You're also right when you say that an amplifier/receiver with a beefy power-supply is required for bi-amping. My old Arcam AVR-300 could manage the difficult-to-drive B&Ws, the mid-priced Denon 2310 could just about take-on the Wharfedales but my current Denon A-1 really rocks the Quads!
Interesting guys, I get what you're saying but I did ask the guys at B&W and what I was told is that if you biwire you can avoid having your mids and highs interacting so much with the bass crossover section. It's a cheap thing to test so I did, what I heard was that the highs were not so much higher or sharper but they seemed to be a bit more abundant. What I felt could be going on is that the intensity or clarity of the highs could possibly be affected by either the crossovers involving the lower end. Or the interaction of the woofer itself as it moves back and forth (which I assume affects the electrical balance within the speaker) could be affecting the highs. I felt I was hearing much better mids and highs so I kept it were it was. I would think that if you have low end speakers or your into certain kinds of music you may not be as sensitive to the affect of all this. I do have some quality gear and perhaps that makes it easier to hear a difference
It's unlikely an engineer, not a marketing person, at B&W would recommend that. Be careful with the power of suggestion and how sighted uncontrolled listening tests can trick you into thinking you will hear a difference. The only slight advantage biwiring gives you is less cable resistance (3AWG lower if using 2 identical sets of cables per speaker). It certainly doesn't cost much to try it if you're using inexpensive cable, but the back EMF reduction arguement is a weak one not grounded in much science. See: www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring
I don't have a suggestive personality, and I can tell you I spend almost 2 hours a night before bed listening to music. The difference I heard was real. I was up last night till 4 am 3 hours longer than normal amazed at the clarity I was hearing, I had also made a change to my bass crossover I went from 30hz and under for the sub to 70hz and under for the sub. I have issues with room acoustics. The combination was pretty amazing, some of my older recordings sounded better than I have ever heard them.
Everyone has a suggestive personality. It's human nature. The only way to eliminate that bias is to do a controlled listening test. This is important when audible differences are so subtle and easily misconstrued. Have a friend switch between biwiring and single wiring without you knowing which is which if you really want to know for sure the differences you're hearing are real or placebo. Good luck and enjoy.
A vintage question: I'm bi-amping a pair of Linn Saras with a Nad 3020 (tweeters) and a Nikko Alpha II power amp (woofers). Am I correct in calling this "passive bi-amping"? Even if the crossover innards of the Linns are magically activating, an "active bi-amping" scenario necessitates - by definition - an active crossover somewhere upstream of the power amps' inputs, eh? Cheers, and nice vid.
My experience with bi amping was with a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i speakers, a Carver avr100 reciever, and an Adcom gfa5500 power amp. Had pre amp out on the Carver, hooked the Carver to the mid/high frequency. And I figured the Adcom would handle the Bass better. Hooked up everything and put in a CD and WoW it was Magic, detail separation and tight forceful bass. The never sounded better. 350 watts , 150 from the Carver and 200 from the Adcom. They were effortless, that was an eye opener.
I have a DM D605 S2 driven by PM6005 and I was instantly able to hear a great deal of improvement in my low frequency.. the funny thing i didn't had any cables connected to the LFE just the speaker cables.. and just before the change I crimped the biwiring cable and made it as a bi amp cable. not sure if crimping did the job or bi amping did the magic. will leave comment when i have further updates.
It would be cool to show the wiring live for setting up bi amping. I know the diagram does really well however for people like me who need the diagram and the physical setup I would love to see the difference between removing that metal connector on the back of your bi amp capable speakers and the impact of removing it versus leaving it on
Clearly, the value in bi-amping is in giving audio addicts the opportunity to throw more thousands at the hobby in the fruitless pursuit of unobtainable perfection.
I know this is a late question, but I keep getting conflicting responses. It is a biamping question. I have two tower speakers that I built myself from kits. The speakers were also available assembled. VMPS Super Towers from way back. The speakers are bi-ampable using a toggle switch on the back of the speaker that completely electrically separates the woofers from the mids and tweeters. I currently use an amp that has a good amount of power...also old school. A Carver PM1200, that outputs about 460 watts/ch RMS 20--20kHz, 8 ohms at clipping. In the large room I have, it will occasionally clip with large transients. Verifiable by an LED that indicates actual clipping. Now for the question. I want more power, but without spending any more money. I also have a second identical Carver PM1200. If I connect one to the woofers and one to the mids and tweeters using the bi-amp toggle switch then I am powering each set of drivers with different amps. The question is....do I get the additive effects of more power since I am using passive crossovers AFTER the amp, as opposed to active crossovers BEFORE the amp? I have had people tell me NO because each amp is getting a full range INPUT. I have had people say YES because although they are getting full range input, the output is only loaded with its respective frequencies as determined by the crossovers. I have had people say NO because you can still "clip" an amp that's not even connected to any load (they mention something about voltage vs current) which is "proven" by the LED's still moving and the clipping LED still activating. I know for sure this is simply an electrical concept defined by well know laws, nothing mysterious. But I think I have yet to find a person knowledgeable in electricity/electronics AND audio reproduction. Gene...what do you think?
My amp. (Denon AVR X2000) wasn't up to the task of properly driving my B&W 804's. After setting up the system with bi-amping the sound quality became a noticeably better. IMO it is definitely worth trying if your amp supports it.
What a coincidence! I added an active crossover to a Denon 5700 to drive some big JBL Pro cabinets. I'll never go back to passive crossovers. Biamping with active crossovers is the short path to Ultimate Smug. On the 5700, the 5803 (yeah, I have one too), and probably others, the pre-amped, intermediate level, input signal for each channel is routed right up there on top of the two output boards. Most of the COTS active crossover designs will work just fine at those signal levels, so it's pretty easy to wire one in (if you know what you're doing!). I used the original Surr-R and Surr-L amps for the JBL's HF horn stacks. The only hard part is finding room for an active crossover board inside a Denon, away from the power transformer. Denon is stingy with space.
Hi guys. Nice video. I have a question about bi-amping. Do I need to use Y-cables to split the signal to each amp? If so, any signal/quality loss by splitting the signal?
Thanks for all your great advice over the years. Part 1: Your comments on active crossovers got me thinking. I have 'biampable' Paradigm Studio 100's v5 LRC, 4 Crown 200W/Ch pro amps that can be bridged to 400W, run by Pioneer Elite SC-77 (supports biamping). Remaining speaker pairs are F Height, Side and Rear Surrounds in a dedicated theater room. Currently running LRC on the bridged amps (no bi-amp), FH on the other crown run stereo and the side/rear are from the receiver. I use the 77's room correction and the THX cinema setting. Also have 2 subs on the front wall in between the LRC. The SC-77 supports biamping LRC but only 5.1. Is it worthwhile adding active crossover between the receiver and the Crowns for the LRC's? Any recommendation on which units to buy? Part 2: Will you be testing the new Hsu and SVS subs soon? Thanks for your help!
Gene, I have an old Onkyo TX-NR801 which is a 7.1. I'm only set up for 5.1 due to room size constraints, but it's driving a pr. of Polk Ri10. It sounds as if I can use the surround back terminals for bi-amping. Please get back if you have any other suggestions.
I did the bi-amping, and the sound - even after recalibrating the speakers - was muddy: powerful, but imprecize bass, very harsh highs, mid was not creating any room. One cable is a shorter 2,5mm2 cross surface I used for the highs, the other one is a longer 4mm2 cross surface that I used for the lows. Is it the amp that is crappy, or the cables really have to have the same properties to do bi-amping? Of course, I removed the interconnecting wires between the speaker poles to keep the right impedance. Out of curiousity, I swapped the pairs in between high and low posts, and it didn't really do much difference, I expected hissing or lost sound due to filters of the speaker. Any tip? I have a Pioneer SC-LX88, I used the Top middle for highs, Front for lows as per the manual.
Bi-amping may just be a simple way to solve the issue of power limitations in the wall outlets of some developing countries: my country's 230V and 16A -3,680W- standard household wall outlet has a lot more sustained juice than 110V and 15A -1,650W- but in order to hear the difference you need music that can demonstrate your amplifier's limitations through realistic live volumes and sustained bass content in there that is able to drain the amplifier's power reserve fast enough. And as each amplifier still amplifies the entire frequency range, you may need to move the crossover from inside the speaker to before the power amplifier layer or the benefit will be marginal. And bi-amping may be a way to double up on damping, but again, to become audible this requires music and speakers that reveal the difference, and potentially the cross-over shift. Bi-cabling might help relay your power amplifier's power to the speakers, if the amplifier has the juice and the speakers can handle that. My power amp can give 60A per channel and the standard figure 8 cable is really not good enough for that, provided you have music and volumes that drive the amplifier towards the 60A per channel and your speakers don't get toasted long before the 60A. As hearing and deciBels are logarithmic, the factor 2.23 difference between 3,680W and 1,650W is less dramatic, by the way, than it looks at first sight, and it will only impact audio quality when sustained loud low bass music is present in what we listen to (assuming a power stage design that can benefit from the 230V power because a design maximized for the 110V situation that only has a 230V transformer instead of a 110V one will not benefit here).
I personally think that if one has a good, thick wire to connect loudspeakers, bi-wiring has nothing to add to good sound. It´s pure marketing (did I hear "buy wiring" over there?). On the other side, bi-amping is a completely different ballgame.
werewolf164 I'm sceptical of most things the "experts" tell you. They are out there to make money and at the end of the day and would tell you black was white so long as they prised our hard earned cash out of our sticky mitts, BUT I bi-wired my floorstanders as I wasn't getting enough bass and I had enough cable spare to do it so I wasn't shelling out money to try it, and yes it's made a difference! I was surprised. It's not transformed my system into a top end super expensive system, but I'm a happier bunny! I don't believe the interconnects debate, cabling, or if you stand on one leg facing due North once in a blue moon that you will find the "sweet spot", but there you go. Can't win em all!
@@andrewhaines8603 You're full of it! Bi-wiring does nothing to affect the sound. The 10 BIGGEST LIES in Audio and #7 is the Bi-wiring LIE www.ecoustics.com/articles/ten-biggest-lies-audio/
@@andrewhaines8603 Cambridge Audio does not make any speakers that can be Bi-wired and they explain why. www.cambridgeaudio.com/en/blog/should-you-bi-wire-your-speakers
Hey Guys great video, I have a pair of polk cti3 bookshelf speakers as fronts for my ht. i noticed they are capable of bi amping and also noticed my denon x2000 only supports minimum 6 ohms per channel would biamping be suitable here so that i dont fry my amp. thanks
It's not a placebo effect like some people say you're right you can hear itI buy amping and bi wire every stereo I've ever owned if it's capable.My Klipsch F1 you can definitely tell the difference and they freaking Rock
"QUESTION ... could i bi-amp my TRIANGLE antal esw EVEN IF I HEAR SOME SOUND ON THE TWEETER ( very little...) WHEN I ONLY PLUG THE BASS CONNECTORS ???..( whitout the metal brackets of course :)).. with two different amp do you think it gonna burn both amp ?? intermodulation crossovers problem ??..thank for the answer !! "
Great info! Glad you guys brought this up, as the whole Bi-wiring/amping issue has been on my mind a lot lately as I start to venture into better audio. Would be fun to experiment with, though! Fantastic video as always. Appreciate your BS-Free approach to things. :)
This was a really informative video. It explained what I have always wanted to know about this subject. One question; if you have a sub would it be of any benefit to bi amp the low frequency section of the speaker? Excellent video.
About to run an active electronic crossover by DBX for 3 way towers via 3 separate amplifiers. I was planning on keeping the passive factory crossovers in place but perhaps I should bypass them? thoughts? thanks!
Another great article guys, thanks. You mentioned something about under powered bi-amp receivers. Could you give us some guidance on what to look for when buying one? Cheers
On a similar topic, can I ask your opinion on this. I have 8ohm speakers that with a sensitivity of 90dB, so relatively easy to drive. I’ve had them bi-amped for a long time and I did notice an improvement in the sound when I switched to bi-amping them. They are currently the front L&R speakers in my AV setup. The receiver is a Marantz SR7015, so enough power for them, even with 7other speakers being powered. My question is, if I was to get a stereo power amplifier, for just these front 2 speakers with more power than the Marantz can give to them, would the extra power be beneficial in sound quality over the my current setup, if I am not able to bi-amp them from the dedicated stereo power amplifier? In a nutshell, do you think the current bi-amp setup would be more beneficial to sound quality than single amp setup with more power?
I like how the VP is RIPPED! It's both kinda funny and at the same time cool because "anyone can be an audiophile". I love your work guys, keep it up! (: To be fair, I bi-wire because I have to, I don't have jumpers on my pair of PT-806's. They were either lost or didn't exist, not sure, got them from my father. As for the JBL's I am looking at, I'll be bi-wiring because I already have the cables, so I don't need new ones. I definitely agree that it doesn't change the sound, haha.
Hi! I don’t know if you guys are still monitoring this thread. I bought this cable that the vendor is phasing out, and I’m wondering if I should buy a second pair of cables before that happens, because otherwise I won’t be able to buy another set of similar cables anymore. I have a Marantz CR612 and a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 40. The Marantz manages to move the Q Acoustics well, but I’m wondering if I could get better Sonics out of my speakers if I took advantage of the 4 built in amplifiers by doing passive BI-amping? Again my concern has more to do with the inability to find a similar set of cables in a few years time when the product is no more available. What do you guys think?
The only time that I did any sort of by wiring was when I had a technics SCEH600 back in the 1990s. The amplifier actually had terminals for both the high section and the lower section of each speaker cabinet. I have to say, I didn’t actually notice any difference between that set up and another pair of speakers that I had at the time that were a single input at the speaker and. Basically, what I am trying to say, is, I don’t see the point of by wiring in a domestic set up. Whether it would be beneficial in a commercial set up, I don’t know. At the moment, I have a pair of speakers that are not by wired, I have to say, I’m very satisfied with them. Just for your reference, they are the debut 5.2 from Elac. Thanks for the video, most informative. 😁
Great video Guys. Awesome stuff. Was planning on doing bi wiring on my Monitor Audio Reference Front Towers but don't really care about the Oooooo Aliens. More of a guy who loves his audio sound. Great videos guys learning so much watching your videos.
my speakers are max 180w,i use 180w per channel amp,So if i bi amp them with the same amp because there are free chanels on it,will it max the power ? i dont want to burn my speakers,or ill be fine ?
Interesting video . I have a pair of canton ergo 900 dc . Would they benefit from bi amping? I know canton makes the RCL-A which is similar but is partially active having a built in amp for the woofers.
I am bi-amping a pair of Polk CS-400i center channels with a Pioneer VSX 815k and 2 Onkyo M-282 amplifiers. I am also bi-amping a pair of Polk RT-800i towers with a second Pioneer VSX 815k and 2 more Onkyo M-282 amplifiers along with 2 Polk PSW 108 subs. End result is a passive bi-amplified 4.2 stereo system.
Question, if you take for example audio quest cables and split them into bi-wire you now are running 1/2 the gauge to each section. So couldn’t that effect the performance negatively? I have seen long cable with too low of a gauge “choke the bass” which I guess is from higher resistances Also Bryston 7B amps have a parallel and serial mode . They state parallel mode is for bi-wiring and less than 4 ohm loads. But no manufacturer tells you what the impedance is for the high side or the low side. Soo how would you know? As far as bi-amping, I have used higher power amplifiers on the woofers because I prefer more bass. And it worked well.
Q: I have a dedicated 5 channel amp I was using for HT. Not doing ant HT these days, so thought I might use the amp for a bi amp set up. I can't quite figure out if that would be a horizontal or a vertical bi amp, or would it be either depending on how i do it? I figured I may as well use the extra channels (it's a mono block 5 channel) to push a bit more juice to the speakers but not clear best way to set it up. Thoughts?
Hurts my brain. I dont think it would be bi amping at all, maybe a different term, bridging? But as far as I can see there is only one way to hook that up Left output 1 to left LF, left output 2 to left HF same for right. Not a bad idea tho. Might try it myself, my towers are a little under powered. Yea Id call that bi wire bridging (which still isnt accurate) over bi amping. WTF do I know tho lol just an electrician, im no audio engineer.
@@kolinstallman3788 This is a 5 channel mono block amp, so it should be bi amping, but I'm no audio engineer myself. I have 3 channels of 5 not doing anything so thought that might be a smart use of 2 more channels.
@@willbrink Yea correct. I looked into it more and it is bi amping kind of as there is usually still only one actual amp in a receiver. so id say vertical if you want to put a name on it lol. My denon, like they say in the video actually has a bi amp setting I just noticed, or just understood anyways. There are a few forums discussing it too if you feel like looking but alot of conflicting info like anything audio related. Some people are saying the 4ch stereo rear outputs will still be a bit different then the fronts, I guess that might depend on the receiver. but in which case I would not do it unless you value the loudness over the sound reproduction. Something about phasing issues.
@@willbrink Your best bet would be to check your manual and any forums on your specific receiver. I read something about phasing issues but didnt go into it.
I'm a little confused. Is there any point in using A and B if you have the choice of using both A and B speakers on your amp? Like, A speakers go to bass, B speakers go to mid and highs. Would that be some kind of bi-amping? Or just a different way of bi-wiring?
Just a different way of bi-wiring. Example. I have an Audiolab 8000P power amp, stereo, 100w into an 8 ohm load. If i double the cables running from each output terminal to the appropriate connections on the speakers I have bi-wired the speakers. To bi-amplify I would need to purchase a second 8000P and then run those doubled up cables to the appropriate outputs on the power amps, ie one per output. Before doing that I would have to decide whether one amp would run the left and the other the right, or whether I wanted to use one amp to drive the HF on both channels and the other to run the LF. Of course if I had 3 way speakers with 3 sets of input terminals then I could tri-wire or tri-amp, same principles except you wouldn't vertically tri-amp with stereo amps. Personal opinion, much depends on the cable gauge, thin cables might benefit over long runs, decent cable less so. Some speakers seem to like it, my main room Tannoy DC3000's for example, others don't, my man cave MX3's. If you do stay single wired consider replacing the jump bars often provided with a short loop of the speaker cable you are using, it certainly won't degrade anything. Hope I haven't confused you more.
Not confusing, makes sense. Thank you. Since the original comment I have taken out the jump bars and bi-wired. May be placebo but every time I sit down and listen to something, it's like instruments have their own space a litte more than they used to. Especially horns keep making me smile now, they're so clean and present. If it's all snake oil, at least I do have good sounding speakers either way.
Interesting, if you had asked me why I prefer my DC's biwired I would have given you a similar reply. The old Tannoy's have awesome power, I mean really tight deep low end and full mid range, but the dual concentric tweeter gets a bit unruly at times, normally wired this tends toward brass instruments being spat at you. Bi-wiring them made a considerable difference to my ears, sweeter with less aggression. My main room cable is Linn LK20, 4 x 6m runs, nothing exotic and quite old now, I imagine it's run in ;). I have been tempted to try a more modern type but finding a dealer willing to cut you 4x 6m lengths on an, 'I might not buy it' basis is understandably not easy :).
I still have a question...I no longer have the gold brackets that came with the speaker to connect LF to HF. Can I just put a small speaker wire into each positive & negative, if I now only have one speaker cable coming from the AVR? Hope I explained this clearly...thks
hey, i really like your channel. as a newbie, i am learning new stuff and got a lot from this channel. while this applies to majority of folks, there are also those who do have sensitive ear and the gear to support it. sound seems VERY SUBJECTIVE. is there way to separate your gear for different type of user vs. completely writing off high end equipment? it's part of journey, but at least let folks know that it is not just either/or....and teach them how to shop with a good ear? i think cables do matter, but ONLY with right equipment and very few own that equipment. most systems don't need it, but a few (even tho very small few) do.
But seriously I just bought a pair of Kef R 11s they are fully broken in, about 4 months old and I'm thinking of bi amping with a Denon 4308ci you think it's worth the trouble.. thanks in advance
I can sum this much too long video up very quickly by my experience. Bi wiring can work, Ive done this and the sound was different when bi wired, whether its better is uto the individual. Bi amping is without doubt , better. I currently bi amp , it adds more detail and separation , I woukd thoroughly recommend a 6mm thick multi strand copper speaker cable , no need for expensive boutique cables, this will add imaging . There you go. Simple.
Listening to Gene always amazes me, his knowledge of audio is beyond anything I've ever heard. Thank you Gene even though this video is 8 years old. (still useful)
I recently did turn my classic Dahlquist DQ10s into an active system using four amps and an electronic crossover. The results were outstanding in clarity, detail, control, bass . . . pretty much everything. It was an undaunting task . . . but also I knew that if I succeeded, my time and efforts would be greatly rewarded . . . and they were! I would only recommend this to someone, who totally understands crossovers, an active system, and has the courage to dive into this genre. I really do hear things in the recordings that I did not before, and the sound quality is only limited by your own ears. I say this because once your room characteristics are corrected, the customization of the sound is totally up to you, which is a very nice feature. In my system, the electronic crossover is hooked into the router of my internet; therefore, I am able to control my laptop wirelessly, while sitting in the sweet spot adjusting all the features in live time. SWEET!
Looks like they swapped shirts.
also sounds like someone is masturbating in the background, heavy breathing
Pretty good show, isn't it?
Lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
😂
Not only that, but their wire is larger than their speakers. 🙄
I turned on bi-amp on my Onkyo with Klipsch speakers. Not much difference but a very small amount. What I ended up doing was using the bi-amp to drive another set of speakers that are on a shelf higher up. This increased the sound nominally but most importantly, it lifted the sound stage. The best thing that I ever did. So now I'm running R-26FA with RP-600M speakers when using 2 channel. Awesome immersion. Just floor speakers place the vocals at waist height. Now they're at standing height which feels natural if you were listening to music in person. Unless you're listening to a person 4 feet tall.
I honestly enjoy these older videos with Hugo more than your newer live vids.
Yea me too. The good ole days :/
I'm glad Lou Ferigno finally found a new job.....
hahaha
Just dont get him angry and all is well
mustis M 😁
What about when bi amping with a reciever? There is a difference in power handling between the high mid drivers and the low driver. what do you do about that situation? I'm having troubles finding this information through cerwin vega which is my speaker brand. I don't want to damage my hf and mid drivers with too much power. 2 cerwin vega xls 215 pioneer 1523-k reciever planning to bi amp like I did with my old setup.
john smith
I also have the xls215's. I would. Bi amp off of a solid 140 wpc receiver
I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i and I had a Carver AVR 100 receiver 150 watts a channel and an Adcom GFA5500 at 200 watts a channel used the Adcom for the bass and the Carver for the mid and high frequency. They sounded amazing, wish I still had those speakers. Good video Gene
Man is it a breath of fresh air to see an audio related channel both not trying to sell something and also not spreading what can only be called "audiophile science"
A common connection will not have an impedance difference. You will only see an impedance difference if you run the wires to separate channels. Think about it!!!!
But you did a better job of covering this subject than most of the other videos I've seen.
We are talking about biwiring which uses the same amp to power each speaker. The connection point on the amp side is common for single wire vs biwire.
For the first time I've understood bi-amp and bi-wiring concepts. Thanks for the great educational video!
I'm disappointed that this video has more downvotes than a charlatan's video (which was posted more recently, but has a similar number of upvotes too). Truth loses, salesmanship wins.
Keep it up with these accurate videos.
That's because truth is boring, and fiction is fun! Lol
Honest talk in audio, nice to see. So much nonsense in audio. I know Hugo from other endeavors and had no idea he was into audio. Cool.
Oh man, i just got through the video. I love that you guys looped the outputs back into itself on the 5803 - I did exactly this with a 2803 (not as high end but the same model year/same exact process). I built my own active crossover tailored to 70s large advents (similar to powered advents which I also have a pair of) and used 4 of the amp channels on that denon the same way you did. The crossover i built also had a built in linkwitz transform to add some gain down low for flatter frequency response (didn't have much problem with the extra power at low frequencies because it didn't need much gain to extend the -3 point down to about 25hz).
The final evolution of the system was that crossover, and a Bryston 4B and a Bryston 2B in a horizontal biamping config, so I had about 100WPC into the tweeters and 400WPC into the woofers, with a stacked large advent setup. It was pretty kickass but thats a lot of speaker real estate, complicated wiring/power up procedure, and ultimately not enough output at 20-30hz to handle movies with that much gain and no additional sub. Pretty amazing quality for music though with the stacked set up.
Since switched to Mackie hr824s and an HSU ULS-15 sub for my main audio system - that still gives me biamping and the ULS-15 is much more suited to very low frequency output than the four advent woofers. Plus the tweeter is absolutely better on the Mackies.
Great video, as always. I know this is an older video, but I keep coming back to it to copy the link to answer questions people still ask on the forums and on some of the FB groups I belong to. Appreciate the great explanations!!
Cool video. I think what you mentioned near the end of the video is the way to go... which is to use a dedicated mono block amp for each left and right speakers. Or in my case a 3 channel amp separate for just the front 3 channels.. I have my speakers biwired currently.
Thanks! You just saved me a lot of money, heartache, and headaches :)
Just because you can measure it doesn't mean you can here it. The truth has been spoken.
Thanks for clarifying this, I'll stick with the current one wire per speaker!
You can also use a higher power amp on the lows to get more bass.
Also, some amplifiers have dual outputs for connecting your speakers with bi-wired cables with a “series/parallel” switch.
Please check, how these "dual outputs" are connected under a cover... ;-)
Thats what I do. Marantz 2 channel receiver runs the mids and highs Crown amp runs the lows sounds fantastic.
Active tri-amping my DIY speakers (Eton 12" woofer, Accuton C2-90 midrange and Accuton C2-30 tweeter) here with a Classé CAV-150 (6 channel HT power amp) and a DEQX DSP based cross over and room correction preamp. Amazing results. It stopped my search for the holy grail.
Now working on an additional subwoofer (Precision devices PD2150) with it's own DSP to see if a proper bass extension could bring more spatiality in the stereo imaging.
One point of feedback on passive bi-amping: the video collapses two different situations. One is the situation that you remove the jumpers from the dual binding posts of existing speakers, and the other situation is the integration of bass systems (subwoofers) to existing speakers.
In case of situation one, I would say that bi-amping is a waste of money. It may yield some advantages, but these will not be justified by the investment. E.g. the amp for the highs is still dealing with the voltage swings of the LF signal. Also the passive filters with all their disadvantages are still in use. In case of a set up from scratch they also need to be payed. It's like putting a bigger engine in your car and leave the handbrake on. As said in the video (and I concur) a good passive filter is very costly and very hard to design. On top of the marginal gains, the additional complexity of the resulting system will also introduce new issues due to the fact that no two amps are exactly the same.
In case of situation two, big advantages are to be gotten. Integrating a passive subwoofer (as far as they exist) is nearly impossible to pull of successfully. Here, acitve amplification and active filtering for the subwoofer is the way to go. Hence the big offering of such subwoofers on the marketplace.
Just my 20 cents.
Having recently tried biwiring my BnW speakers (which I WAS very skeptical about!), I was amazed at how the sound was transformed by orders of magnitude. I heard vocals that I’d never noticed previously. The proof is in the listening! Maybe it’s manufacturer- or product/ setup dependent. But with my (SINGLE-amp!) gear, it worked.
Hi. I recently did the same and noticed a difference. Heard things never heard before. Posted a comment on another video and got rubbished as they refused to believe that it makes a difference. I like the increased musical listening.
Thank you so much my buddy bi wired his speaker and told the world how much of a difference it makes
Thanks for the video and much truth spoken 👍🏻. One thing I would mention is the jumpers or links on bi-wire speakers do in many case come supplied with gold plated metal plates or bars.... I've found it better where possible to replace these with jumpers made from the same cable as that run from the amp.
I have a Marantz NR1604, which is Bi-Amp capable. I had some extra wire so I thought I would give it a try. I can honestly say I don't really hear any difference.
Great video as always by the way.
You made a interesting comment early on. I have paralleled 2 pairs of Bookshelf Speakers connected to my Denon DRA-800H Receiver connected to the A or B speaker connection. Both pairs are 8 ohms : 1 pair Elac Reference 6.2s and 1 pair of Fluances Signature Series Bookshelf speakers. They "play" very nicely together , filling my finished basement "Studio" created in the COVID Hibernation. I then added another pair of Bookshelf speakers to the A connection , playing in the front of the room. Another pair of Elac Debut 6.2s (also 8 ohms). Per advice from on line Audiophile Blogs, I stopped that after the Denon Receiver shut down (for Overheating and circuitry overload protection). I have since added another Integrated IOTA SA3 unit running with an Emotiva A-300 Amp. Leaving the paralleled speakers on the Denon , but connecting the other Elacs to the IOTA unit. I have now added yet another pair of Bookshelf speakers : Emotiva B1+s. They are connected to the Emotiva A-300. No problems with getting too warm or overload. When I run this setup , playing with the loudness controls between the 2 configurations, I am able to achieve a Concert Hall Sound. I know this is Anti-Audiophile way of doing things, but Hell I'm 69 YO , retired, and love My Music to listen to and play my renewed passion of drums (after a 50 year Hiatus ). Please comment accordingly. I appreciate all comments. FYI. I had the Elac Debuts and the Fluances (purchased in mid 2020), purchased the Elac References in December 2020, and now the Emotiva's just a couple of weeks ago. I am tempted with Trading the B1+s for T1+ (floor standing 3 way speakers ).
I'm bi-wiring my Legacy Audio Studio HD's with a pair of Emotiva XPA- 100 mono block amps. Didn't hear a bit of difference, but it looks cool :-p.
So glad to hear about biamping. Looks like mainstream? Sanyo made biamp speakers and amp for car audio starting in late 70's. I quad amp now for the very least.
Love this video. I am now bi-amping (horizontal, passive) my new Klipsch RP-6000F II towers for my front channels using my Demon AVR's pre-outs and some audioquest RCA splitters and the sound is amazing. I'm using 2 very similar external stereo amps but the one with higher power is connected to the low freq network of course. The AVR itself is powering center, surrounds, back surrounds and height channels for my 7.1.4 home theater. Eventually I'd like to pre-out my center channel and power it externally but there's always more to do...
Thank you guys for your voice of reason in this age of audio snake oil. If a cable diameter is large enough and it's reasonably short there is no difference between bi-wiring and a single cable. If a thin and long cable has to be used then bi-wiring might help as the wire impedance will affect the bass signal path only leaving the mid-high frequencies unaffected. But then who would use thin long wires for a high current speaker setup except in emergency? I've been using a regular 50 cent per foot 14 ga braided copper wire for ages and my pretty decent setup sounds great. Reliable speaker wire connection is far more important than the bi-wiring for instance, and the very low amp output impedance too.
Thank you for making these videos. I have found them very educational. While I agree with most points you made I have had different experiences. I have found that bi-wiring is an audible improvement in my system. I have a Vandersteen speakers and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. I think one plausible theory as to why I was able to hear a difference is that the load across the mid/treble wires is much less than the bass wires which may lead to less distortion across the mid/treble wires. In regards to bi-amping though an AVR, I was not able to hear any benefit in my system. I think that unless your AVR has discrete amplifiers with separate transformers per channel you are just pulling power from the same power source effectively just bi-wiring your speakers. Thanks again for the videos and all of your hard work!
Green Guitar That's great that you prefer biwiring however the "load' across the cables in insignificantly difference for single vs bi-wiring. Most AVR's do have discrete amplification but their power supplies typically aren't as robust as your Emotiva amp.
A few years ago I upgraded to a pair of substantial floorstanders. Each cabinet contains 3 200mm low frequency drivers, 1 165mm mid range driver and a 25mm tweeter.organised in a 3-way configuration. I drive them with a pair of 300w monoblocks. To my personal taste, I felt the mid range would benefit from a little more body and the top end, more presence. For some time I’ve contemplated passive bi-wiring. Everyone I discussed this with told me it was a bad idea, they said active bi-amping was a better option and I can see the logic in their advice. But, as you pointed out, active bi-amping is a complex undertaking. So, I went down the passive route.
I purchased a stereo power amp reputed for it’s detail retrieval whilst maintaining good tonal density. In the sane price bracket as my monoblocks vut not quite as powerful. Installation was a breeze, as my preamp has 2 sets of XLR outputs, powered simultaneously. The monoblocks and power amp had the same DB gain. I used identical speaker cable and identical cable lengths for both. I have the monoblocks powering the 6 200mm low frequency drivers and the power amp powering the mid and high frequency drivers. I really didn’t know what to expect.
Well now the mid range is fuller, with far more detail. The highs are slightly more forward and airy. Applause sounds like applause, not like rain on a tin roof. Symbols sound like symbols, not like spoons. That maybe a slight exaggeration, but you get the picture.
The bass is tight. Is well textured and defined, it carrie’s far more heft. So much so, that I have had to turn the gain down on my active subs!
My normal listening level is around 79db, because I have neighbours. At this volume the audio reproduction is relaxed, effortless and transparent. The results are worth the effort.
I have spent just under £11000 on amplification. The preamp, monoblocks and power amp. The question has to be, had I spent &11000 on a single higher end amp, would the benefits be greater?
hard to tell at that volume level. We added external analog crossovers and tri amped large PA speakers (horn tweeter, horn mids, and dual 15 woofers) and certainly was very easy to tell at loud club levels how much better it sounded with one amp channel for each element. Especially the bass because PA system like that don't play real low on the subs so we would crossover at 100hz to the subs then rolloff the subs at 40hz.
I did an active tri-amp on my klipsch forte II's. Took a little modification, but holy smokes! Just amazing. You have no idea until you have heard something like that. I can not believe that there is not more custom active speaker systems.
I have a vintage Rotel RX-855 Receiver and a Rotel RB-850 Amplifier that I Bi-amp in mono(one amp to each speaker) with one set of posts on each speaker. This set up was designed this way and love it! They originally are 50wpc seperately and around 150wpc together.
Bi-amplification is a common practice in setting up most professional sound systems. There are even systems where the different speakers used require 3 or more amps to run such speaker boxes. It is not uncommon to see professional rigs run a 4 way, 5 way or as much as 6 way crossover systems to channel the right signal to the various different types of speaker drivers. Me personally I do not see an advantage to bi-wire a speaker but bi-amping a speaker has many advantages especially with systems consisting active crossover networks at the line level side of the amps.
I like watching the older videos just to see Hugo! Wonder if hugo is involved with the channel still🤔?
Actually bi-amping works if you have extra channels in your amp that you can use. I biamped my klipsch rf82's front speakers to emotiva monoblock 7 channel power amp. Its 300watts per channel at 8ohms. I noticed a big difference in sound, more powerful and loud. I tried also biwire which i did not noticed any difference in sound on my klipsch rf82 tower speakers. So bi-amping really works!!!
I thought you were gonna say “ we’re not married” 😂😂🍻. It’s refreshing to see two macho men not ego tripping and just relaxing and being funny. Keep it up🍻
I find it funny, this all about audio and how clean it can be, man the background hum is what I would thought you would have picked up on. My vote is for biamp....
Thanks guy's, fairly new to this and you have saved me a load of money
I had a bi-amp system that had the 6SN7 driving two 245 triodes, one triode for both the tweeter and mid-range and the other for woofer. The bass was weak so I decided to build a "no balls no glory" 833-A SET for the woofers. The first thing I did was wire the tweeter to one 245 and the other to the mid-range which sounded much clearer that I had ever heard. I got the woofers in phase with the mid-range by trying reversing the polarity on the input transformer (Hammond 126B driven by a 245) and I put a volume control on it to keep the 833-As from being louder than the mid-range. The 833-A seems to have made my subwoofers unnecessary at least for music. All the low frequency energy that I hear in a concert hall is now in my listening room.
The 833-A is not that difficult a circuit to build. Run it at 1000 Volts on the plate through a Hammond 1642 output transformer and filter the DC it takes to heat the cathodes with automotive digital 4.5 Farad capacitors that must be pre-charged before you shoot the power to heat the 10 Amp 10 Volt cathodes, a 10 Volt 20 Amp transformer, a bridge rectifier rated at 25 Amps, a 0.1 Ohm wire-wound dropping resistor rated at 75 watts (which only cost pocket change more than 15 Watts and will not be so damn hot when it runs) a 20 Amp fuse, and a relay that disconnects the 833-A cathode when the system is shut off. When it is shut off, keep the capacitors charged with a cheap 9 volt DC converter through 100 Ohms.
By the way, I have been using your prioritization bodybuilding program and it is excelsior that you also tinker with sound systems.
Im still confused on the biwiring signal path as your diagram doesnt show a crossover. You cant send an amps full range signal to a mid or tweeter without protection. Please explain. Thanks :)
Biwiring doesn't remove the crossover. The connection on the amp side is the same but the hpf and lpf are separated at the speaker side through 2 sets of cables.
@@Audioholics I've left a post to you on another of your videos about bi-wiring, but found this one which may be more appropriate to the point I have. At 4.00-4.10 you're are talking about the highs and lows being tied together at the amplifier end (Y point). You seem to be suggesting that because of this the 'signals' (current) flowing along each wire to the tweeter filter and along the woofer wire to the woofer filter are the same. Do you think they are? As you say the impedance of of the current source (amplifier) is extremely low compared to the drive unit it is feeding (typically 4-8 ohms). Now, a 50hz 'bass' current 'sees' about 7000 ohms of capacitive reactance due to the input series capacitor (about 4-5 microfarads in a typical Butterworth filter) along the tweeter wire, consequently almost no 50hz current will flow (any 'residual' will find a path to ground after the capacitor via the inductor). Now, the amplifier will 'see' negligible impedance ( just the 8 ohms of the woofer) in the woofer wire as the input series inductors of the woofer filter present a tiny inductive reactance at this frequency, and consequently the 50hz current will flow through the woofer. At, say, 10Khz the reverse is true and the amplifier will 'see' high impedance in the woofer wire, and low impedance in the tweeter wire and consequently flow from the Y split to the tweeter filter.
All this will seem obvious to anyone with a decent grounding in Ohms Law in AC circuits. Would you confirm this is what you understand to happen. Bi-wire detractors try to use the argument that the signal current DOESN'T split at the amplifier end - for example M Zillch in his 'Bi-wiring: The Secret truth Revealed' TH-cam video, where he quotes you as backing him up! He seems impressed that you have a degree in electrical engineering.....overkill perhaps for such an elementary Ohm's/Kirchhoff's Laws problem!
By the way, I enjoy your videos and think they are spot on. I am glad to see someone in the field dispel the snake oil claims and use common sense in reporting on our passion for audio excellence.
I continue to find these videos helpful. Many thanks on both of these subjects, esp. the myth of bi-wiring which seems to have no basis in science.
I have a "horizontal" bi-amp set-up using a Hafler XL-280 for the top end and a Phase Linear DRS-900 for the bottom with a POLK AUDIO SRS-SDA system. I use the passive cross-overs (which Polk recommends). I have tried an active SAE crossover without bypassing the internal passive network in an attempt to add more dynamic range to my amps. I found that doing this messes with the "inter-aural cross-talk cancellation" feature of the system because of the inevitable phase-shift of the active cross-over, even if the cross-over is set to roll-off the frequency extremes (easily seen on the scope). I do find however, that bi-amping does increase the dynamic range slightly. As a side note, anybody who has these type of speakers that are inter-connected because of the SDA, SHOULD NOT bi-amp in the vertical mode (common ground amps are needed) unless you have a special transformer inter-connect cable made by Polk. If you do not observe this caution, you WILL HAVE A BAD DAY! CHEERS!
I didn't see why bi-wiring would work. But this afternoon I had nothing to do, and some speaker-cable left. So just to get rid of them I bi-wired my speakers. Somehow there's a lot of difference in the sound. I didn't expect that. I did a blind test with someone putting the extra wires on and off, and there's no doubt.
I was also curious and I just biwired my center speaker Polk706c, I definitely heard the difference!!
Hard to explain but the clarity got even better and it feels like the center speaker is more alive.
I guess it makes difference after all...
@@kenasaoka888 It's likely that you guys are using high-gauge wires (i.e. 16 AWG). If you were using a thicker wire like 12 AWG there would not be any difference. Most high-end speakers do not have 2 sets of binding posts because they assume the owner will also spend a few extra bucks on proper low-resistance cables.
I am bi-amping a pair of svs ultra towers using a onkyo tx-nr1030. I'm also using a ultra center and ultra rears. I bought the tx-nr1030 over the tx-nr838 because the power supply is twice the size eleven pounds heavier to be exact. I did notice better lows and impact during movies wile bi-amped. I will be using an Emotiva mono block for the center to free up the avr. I'm sure that will help the avr put more power to the other channels. I will be buying more amps as I can afford. I'm also using Radio shack 12 gauge copper/silver wire no voodoo for me!
Thanks for doing this guys! I've always wondered. As always, thanks for the no BS education.
You can hear the difference dude, they're full of shit the music is most definitely more clear
@@Crazytownmetal6 experimented with bi-wiring, did not hear any difference, switched back to single wire.
What kind of Power Specs do you consider a Whimpy reciever? 7x120?
There is a lot frequency hum going on in the background of the audio through out the video. It is disturbing the information you are sharing with us.
there always is...
Thanks for a very informative video! What was particularly eye-opening was your opinion that bi-wiring does not make a difference, simply because the two "halves" are tied-together at source. However, bi-amping DOES make a huge difference; and is particularly useful in systems (like mine) which dont include a subwoofer. I have used B&W 640i, Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 and (currently) the Quad 25-LClassic, bi-amped, sending LFE to the bass units in the towers, and found I dont really need a sub!
You're also right when you say that an amplifier/receiver with a beefy power-supply is required for bi-amping. My old Arcam AVR-300 could manage the difficult-to-drive B&Ws, the mid-priced Denon 2310 could just about take-on the Wharfedales but my current Denon A-1 really rocks the Quads!
Interesting guys, I get what you're saying but I did ask the guys at B&W and what I was told is that if you biwire you can avoid having your mids and highs interacting so much with the bass crossover section. It's a cheap thing to test so I did, what I heard was that the highs were not so much higher or sharper but they seemed to be a bit more abundant. What I felt could be going on is that the intensity or clarity of the highs could possibly be affected by either the crossovers involving the lower end. Or the interaction of the woofer itself as it moves back and forth (which I assume affects the electrical balance within the speaker) could be affecting the highs. I felt I was hearing much better mids and highs so I kept it were it was. I would think that if you have low end speakers or your into certain kinds of music you may not be as sensitive to the affect of all this. I do have some quality gear and perhaps that makes it easier to hear a difference
It's unlikely an engineer, not a marketing person, at B&W would recommend that. Be careful with the power of suggestion and how sighted uncontrolled listening tests can trick you into thinking you will hear a difference. The only slight advantage biwiring gives you is less cable resistance (3AWG lower if using 2 identical sets of cables per speaker). It certainly doesn't cost much to try it if you're using inexpensive cable, but the back EMF reduction arguement is a weak one not grounded in much science.
See: www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring
I don't have a suggestive personality, and I can tell you I spend almost 2 hours a night before bed listening to music. The difference I heard was real. I was up last night till 4 am 3 hours longer than normal amazed at the clarity I was hearing, I had also made a change to my bass crossover I went from 30hz and under for the sub to 70hz and under for the sub. I have issues with room acoustics. The combination was pretty amazing, some of my older recordings sounded better than I have ever heard them.
Everyone has a suggestive personality. It's human nature. The only way to eliminate that bias is to do a controlled listening test. This is important when audible differences are so subtle and easily misconstrued. Have a friend switch between biwiring and single wiring without you knowing which is which if you really want to know for sure the differences you're hearing are real or placebo. Good luck and enjoy.
A vintage question: I'm bi-amping a pair of Linn Saras with a Nad 3020 (tweeters) and a Nikko Alpha II power amp (woofers). Am I correct in calling this "passive bi-amping"? Even if the crossover innards of the Linns are magically activating, an "active bi-amping" scenario necessitates - by definition - an active crossover somewhere upstream of the power amps' inputs, eh?
Cheers, and nice vid.
My experience with bi amping was with a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i speakers, a Carver avr100 reciever, and an Adcom gfa5500 power amp. Had pre amp out on the Carver, hooked the Carver to the mid/high frequency. And I figured the Adcom would handle the Bass better. Hooked up everything and put in a CD and WoW it was Magic, detail separation and tight forceful bass. The never sounded better. 350 watts , 150 from the Carver and 200 from the Adcom. They were effortless, that was an eye opener.
I have a DM D605 S2 driven by PM6005 and I was instantly able to hear a great deal of improvement in my low frequency.. the funny thing i didn't had any cables connected to the LFE just the speaker cables.. and just before the change I crimped the biwiring cable and made it as a bi amp cable. not sure if crimping did the job or bi amping did the magic. will leave comment when i have further updates.
It would be cool to show the wiring live for setting up bi amping. I know the diagram does really well however for people like me who need the diagram and the physical setup I would love to see the difference between removing that metal connector on the back of your bi amp capable speakers and the impact of removing it versus leaving it on
Clearly, the value in bi-amping is in giving audio addicts the opportunity to throw more thousands at the hobby in the fruitless pursuit of unobtainable perfection.
Dr Spock was listening intently, I think he was very impressed!
"Mr." Spock to you, Sir.
What about using 2 different wires to bi-wire? A wire that produces good highs for the treble and good bass cable for the low end?
I know this is a late question, but I keep getting conflicting responses. It is a biamping question. I have two tower speakers that I built myself from kits. The speakers were also available assembled. VMPS Super Towers from way back. The speakers are bi-ampable using a toggle switch on the back of the speaker that completely electrically separates the woofers from the mids and tweeters. I currently use an amp that has a good amount of power...also old school. A Carver PM1200, that outputs about 460 watts/ch RMS 20--20kHz, 8 ohms at clipping. In the large room I have, it will occasionally clip with large transients. Verifiable by an LED that indicates actual clipping.
Now for the question. I want more power, but without spending any more money. I also have a second identical Carver PM1200. If I connect one to the woofers and one to the mids and tweeters using the bi-amp toggle switch then I am powering each set of drivers with different amps.
The question is....do I get the additive effects of more power since I am using passive crossovers AFTER the amp, as opposed to active crossovers BEFORE the amp? I have had people tell me NO because each amp is getting a full range INPUT. I have had people say YES because although they are getting full range input, the output is only loaded with its respective frequencies as determined by the crossovers. I have had people say NO because you can still "clip" an amp that's not even connected to any load (they mention something about voltage vs current) which is "proven" by the LED's still moving and the clipping LED still activating.
I know for sure this is simply an electrical concept defined by well know laws, nothing mysterious. But I think I have yet to find a person knowledgeable in electricity/electronics AND audio reproduction.
Gene...what do you think?
My amp. (Denon AVR X2000) wasn't up to the task of properly driving my B&W 804's.
After setting up the system with bi-amping the sound quality became a noticeably better.
IMO it is definitely worth trying if your amp supports it.
What a coincidence! I added an active crossover to a Denon 5700 to drive some big JBL Pro cabinets. I'll never go back to passive crossovers. Biamping with active crossovers is the short path to Ultimate Smug.
On the 5700, the 5803 (yeah, I have one too), and probably others, the pre-amped, intermediate level, input signal for each channel is routed right up there on top of the two output boards. Most of the COTS active crossover designs will work just fine at those signal levels, so it's pretty easy to wire one in (if you know what you're doing!). I used the original Surr-R and Surr-L amps for the JBL's HF horn stacks. The only hard part is finding room for an active crossover board inside a Denon, away from the power transformer. Denon is stingy with space.
Hi guys. Nice video. I have a question about bi-amping. Do I need to use Y-cables to split the signal to each amp? If so, any signal/quality loss by splitting the signal?
You are always great to listen to. Thanks for the videos
Thanks for all your great advice over the years. Part 1: Your comments on active crossovers got me thinking. I have 'biampable' Paradigm Studio 100's v5 LRC, 4 Crown 200W/Ch pro amps that can be bridged to 400W, run by Pioneer Elite SC-77 (supports biamping). Remaining speaker pairs are F Height, Side and Rear Surrounds in a dedicated theater room. Currently running LRC on the bridged amps (no bi-amp), FH on the other crown run stereo and the side/rear are from the receiver. I use the 77's room correction and the THX cinema setting. Also have 2 subs on the front wall in between the LRC. The SC-77 supports biamping LRC but only 5.1. Is it worthwhile adding active crossover between the receiver and the Crowns for the LRC's? Any recommendation on which units to buy? Part 2: Will you be testing the new Hsu and SVS subs soon? Thanks for your help!
Gene, I have an old Onkyo TX-NR801 which is a 7.1. I'm only set up for 5.1 due to room size constraints, but it's driving a pr. of Polk Ri10.
It sounds as if I can use the surround back terminals for bi-amping. Please get back if you have any other suggestions.
I did the bi-amping, and the sound - even after recalibrating the speakers - was muddy: powerful, but imprecize bass, very harsh highs, mid was not creating any room. One cable is a shorter 2,5mm2 cross surface I used for the highs, the other one is a longer 4mm2 cross surface that I used for the lows.
Is it the amp that is crappy, or the cables really have to have the same properties to do bi-amping?
Of course, I removed the interconnecting wires between the speaker poles to keep the right impedance.
Out of curiousity, I swapped the pairs in between high and low posts, and it didn't really do much difference, I expected hissing or lost sound due to filters of the speaker.
Any tip? I have a Pioneer SC-LX88, I used the Top middle for highs, Front for lows as per the manual.
Bi-amping may just be a simple way to solve the issue of power limitations in the wall outlets of some developing countries: my country's 230V and 16A -3,680W- standard household wall outlet has a lot more sustained juice than 110V and 15A -1,650W- but in order to hear the difference you need music that can demonstrate your amplifier's limitations through realistic live volumes and sustained bass content in there that is able to drain the amplifier's power reserve fast enough. And as each amplifier still amplifies the entire frequency range, you may need to move the crossover from inside the speaker to before the power amplifier layer or the benefit will be marginal. And bi-amping may be a way to double up on damping, but again, to become audible this requires music and speakers that reveal the difference, and potentially the cross-over shift. Bi-cabling might help relay your power amplifier's power to the speakers, if the amplifier has the juice and the speakers can handle that. My power amp can give 60A per channel and the standard figure 8 cable is really not good enough for that, provided you have music and volumes that drive the amplifier towards the 60A per channel and your speakers don't get toasted long before the 60A.
As hearing and deciBels are logarithmic, the factor 2.23 difference between 3,680W and 1,650W is less dramatic, by the way, than it looks at first sight, and it will only impact audio quality when sustained loud low bass music is present in what we listen to (assuming a power stage design that can benefit from the 230V power because a design maximized for the 110V situation that only has a 230V transformer instead of a 110V one will not benefit here).
I personally think that if one has a good, thick wire to connect loudspeakers, bi-wiring has nothing to add to good sound. It´s pure marketing (did I hear "buy wiring" over there?). On the other side, bi-amping is a completely different ballgame.
werewolf164 I'm sceptical of most things the "experts" tell you. They are out there to make money and at the end of the day and would tell you black was white so long as they prised our hard earned cash out of our sticky mitts, BUT I bi-wired my floorstanders as I wasn't getting enough bass and I had enough cable spare to do it so I wasn't shelling out money to try it, and yes it's made a difference! I was surprised. It's not transformed my system into a top end super expensive system, but I'm a happier bunny! I don't believe the interconnects debate, cabling, or if you stand on one leg facing due North once in a blue moon that you will find the "sweet spot", but there you go. Can't win em all!
@@andrewhaines8603 You're full of it! Bi-wiring does nothing to affect the sound.
The 10 BIGGEST LIES in Audio and #7 is the Bi-wiring LIE
www.ecoustics.com/articles/ten-biggest-lies-audio/
@@andrewhaines8603 Cambridge Audio does not make any speakers that can be Bi-wired and they explain why.
www.cambridgeaudio.com/en/blog/should-you-bi-wire-your-speakers
Personally i gained much more detailed and pleasing sound with bi wire.
Hey Guys great video, I have a pair of polk cti3 bookshelf speakers as fronts for my ht. i noticed they are capable of bi amping and also noticed my denon x2000 only supports minimum 6 ohms per channel would biamping be suitable here so that i dont fry my amp. thanks
simply speaking, bi-wiring worked for my amp and speakers with noticeable difference.
placebo effect without any doubt.
It's not a placebo effect like some people say you're right you can hear itI buy amping and bi wire every stereo I've ever owned if it's capable.My Klipsch F1 you can definitely tell the difference and they freaking Rock
"QUESTION ... could i bi-amp my TRIANGLE antal esw EVEN IF I HEAR SOME SOUND ON THE TWEETER ( very little...) WHEN I ONLY PLUG THE BASS CONNECTORS ???..( whitout the metal brackets of course :)).. with two different amp do you think it gonna burn both amp ?? intermodulation crossovers problem ??..thank for the answer !! "
Great info! Glad you guys brought this up, as the whole Bi-wiring/amping issue has been on my mind a lot lately as I start to venture into better audio. Would be fun to experiment with, though! Fantastic video as always. Appreciate your BS-Free approach to things. :)
Best there are! TH-cam videos are as cool as the internet. Interernet was made for you tube! Bless yous!
This was a really informative video. It explained what I have always wanted to know about this subject. One question; if you have a sub would it be of any benefit to bi amp the low frequency section of the speaker? Excellent video.
About to run an active electronic crossover by DBX for 3 way towers via 3 separate amplifiers. I was planning on keeping the passive factory crossovers in place but perhaps I should bypass them? thoughts? thanks!
Another great article guys, thanks. You mentioned something about under powered bi-amp receivers. Could you give us some guidance on what to look for when buying one?
Cheers
On a similar topic, can I ask your opinion on this. I have 8ohm speakers that with a sensitivity of 90dB, so relatively easy to drive. I’ve had them bi-amped for a long time and I did notice an improvement in the sound when I switched to bi-amping them. They are currently the front L&R speakers in my AV setup. The receiver is a Marantz SR7015, so enough power for them, even with 7other speakers being powered. My question is, if I was to get a stereo power amplifier, for just these front 2 speakers with more power than the Marantz can give to them, would the extra power be beneficial in sound quality over the my current setup, if I am not able to bi-amp them from the dedicated stereo power amplifier? In a nutshell, do you think the current bi-amp setup would be more beneficial to sound quality than single amp setup with more power?
I like how the VP is RIPPED! It's both kinda funny and at the same time cool because "anyone can be an audiophile". I love your work guys, keep it up! (:
To be fair, I bi-wire because I have to, I don't have jumpers on my pair of PT-806's. They were either lost or didn't exist, not sure, got them from my father. As for the JBL's I am looking at, I'll be bi-wiring because I already have the cables, so I don't need new ones. I definitely agree that it doesn't change the sound, haha.
KidWizzer you could just run a small section of speaker cable from one set of poles on the speaker to the other.
Hi! I don’t know if you guys are still monitoring this thread. I bought this cable that the vendor is phasing out, and I’m wondering if I should buy a second pair of cables before that happens, because otherwise I won’t be able to buy another set of similar cables anymore.
I have a Marantz CR612 and a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 40. The Marantz manages to move the Q Acoustics well, but I’m wondering if I could get better Sonics out of my speakers if I took advantage of the 4 built in amplifiers by doing passive BI-amping?
Again my concern has more to do with the inability to find a similar set of cables in a few years time when the product is no more available. What do you guys think?
The only time that I did any sort of by wiring was when I had a technics SCEH600 back in the 1990s. The amplifier actually had terminals for both the high section and the lower section of each speaker cabinet.
I have to say, I didn’t actually notice any difference between that set up and another pair of speakers that I had at the time that were a single input at the speaker and.
Basically, what I am trying to say, is, I don’t see the point of by wiring in a domestic set up.
Whether it would be beneficial in a commercial set up, I don’t know. At the moment, I have a pair of speakers that are not by wired, I have to say, I’m very satisfied with them. Just for your reference, they are the debut 5.2 from Elac. Thanks for the video, most informative. 😁
Great video Guys. Awesome stuff. Was planning on doing bi wiring on my Monitor Audio Reference Front Towers but don't really care about the Oooooo Aliens. More of a guy who loves his audio sound.
Great videos guys learning so much watching your videos.
You guys are so funny. Enjoying the videos. Good information. Thanks a lot!
my speakers are max 180w,i use 180w per channel amp,So if i bi amp them with the same amp because there are free chanels on it,will it max the power ? i dont want to burn my speakers,or ill be fine ?
Interesting video . I have a pair of canton ergo 900 dc . Would they benefit from bi amping? I know canton makes the RCL-A which is similar but is partially active having a built in amp for the woofers.
I am bi-amping a pair of Polk CS-400i center channels with a Pioneer VSX 815k and 2 Onkyo M-282 amplifiers. I am also bi-amping a pair of Polk RT-800i towers with a second Pioneer VSX 815k and 2 more Onkyo M-282 amplifiers along with 2 Polk PSW 108 subs. End result is a passive bi-amplified 4.2 stereo system.
Hi I am setting new home theatre I will try bi amp my q acoustic concept 40 will it help I am setting 5.1.2 with Marantz 6013
Question, if you take for example audio quest cables and split them into bi-wire you now are running 1/2 the gauge to each section. So couldn’t that effect the performance negatively? I have seen long cable with too low of a gauge “choke the bass” which I guess is from higher resistances
Also Bryston 7B amps have a parallel and serial mode . They state parallel mode is for bi-wiring and less than 4 ohm loads. But no manufacturer tells you what the impedance is for the high side or the low side. Soo how would you know?
As far as bi-amping, I have used higher power amplifiers on the woofers because I prefer more bass. And it worked well.
Is there any difference between bi-wring using A+B terminals vs. splitting the output of a single terminal?
Q: I have a dedicated 5 channel amp I was using for HT. Not doing ant HT these days, so thought I might use the amp for a bi amp set up. I can't quite figure out if that would be a horizontal or a vertical bi amp, or would it be either depending on how i do it? I figured I may as well use the extra channels (it's a mono block 5 channel) to push a bit more juice to the speakers but not clear best way to set it up. Thoughts?
Hurts my brain. I dont think it would be bi amping at all, maybe a different term, bridging? But as far as I can see there is only one way to hook that up Left output 1 to left LF, left output 2 to left HF same for right. Not a bad idea tho. Might try it myself, my towers are a little under powered. Yea Id call that bi wire bridging (which still isnt accurate) over bi amping. WTF do I know tho lol just an electrician, im no audio engineer.
@@kolinstallman3788 This is a 5 channel mono block amp, so it should be bi amping, but I'm no audio engineer myself. I have 3 channels of 5 not doing anything so thought that might be a smart use of 2 more channels.
@@willbrink Yea correct. I looked into it more and it is bi amping kind of as there is usually still only one actual amp in a receiver. so id say vertical if you want to put a name on it lol. My denon, like they say in the video actually has a bi amp setting I just noticed, or just understood anyways. There are a few forums discussing it too if you feel like looking but alot of conflicting info like anything audio related. Some people are saying the 4ch stereo rear outputs will still be a bit different then the fronts, I guess that might depend on the receiver. but in which case I would not do it unless you value the loudness over the sound reproduction. Something about phasing issues.
@@willbrink Your best bet would be to check your manual and any forums on your specific receiver. I read something about phasing issues but didnt go into it.
@@kolinstallman3788 I just have to use a signal splitter. That's the set up I'm talking about: th-cam.com/video/fPrGqu-_7VE/w-d-xo.html
Great video.
I use bi-amping on my Sony DA-3400ES with my Infinity Reference 60s. They sound great.
I'm a little confused. Is there any point in using A and B if you have the choice of using both A and B speakers on your amp? Like, A speakers go to bass, B speakers go to mid and highs. Would that be some kind of bi-amping? Or just a different way of bi-wiring?
Just a different way of bi-wiring. Example.
I have an Audiolab 8000P power amp, stereo, 100w into an 8 ohm load. If i double the cables running from each output terminal to the appropriate connections on the speakers I have bi-wired the speakers. To bi-amplify I would need to purchase a second 8000P and then run those doubled up cables to the appropriate outputs on the power amps, ie one per output.
Before doing that I would have to decide whether one amp would run the left and the other the right, or whether I wanted to use one amp to drive the HF on both channels and the other to run the LF.
Of course if I had 3 way speakers with 3 sets of input terminals then I could tri-wire or tri-amp, same principles except you wouldn't vertically tri-amp with stereo amps.
Personal opinion, much depends on the cable gauge, thin cables might benefit over long runs, decent cable less so.
Some speakers seem to like it, my main room Tannoy DC3000's for example, others don't, my man cave MX3's.
If you do stay single wired consider replacing the jump bars often provided with a short loop of the speaker cable you are using, it certainly won't degrade anything.
Hope I haven't confused you more.
Not confusing, makes sense. Thank you. Since the original comment I have taken out the jump bars and bi-wired. May be placebo but every time I sit down and listen to something, it's like instruments have their own space a litte more than they used to. Especially horns keep making me smile now, they're so clean and present. If it's all snake oil, at least I do have good sounding speakers either way.
Interesting, if you had asked me why I prefer my DC's biwired I would have given you a similar reply.
The old Tannoy's have awesome power, I mean really tight deep low end and full mid range, but the dual concentric tweeter gets a bit unruly at times, normally wired this tends toward brass instruments being spat at you.
Bi-wiring them made a considerable difference to my ears, sweeter with less aggression. My main room cable is Linn LK20, 4 x 6m runs, nothing exotic and quite old now, I imagine it's run in ;).
I have been tempted to try a more modern type but finding a dealer willing to cut you 4x 6m lengths on an, 'I might not buy it' basis is understandably not easy :).
As of today's date, what are some pre/pros that support bi-amping XLR output for the front channels that you can recommend other than the Onkyo 5530?
I still have a question...I no longer have the gold brackets that came with the speaker to connect LF to HF. Can I just put a small speaker wire into each positive & negative, if I now only have one speaker cable coming from the AVR? Hope I explained this clearly...thks
hey, i really like your channel. as a newbie, i am learning new stuff and got a lot from this channel. while this applies to majority of folks, there are also those who do have sensitive ear and the gear to support it. sound seems VERY SUBJECTIVE. is there way to separate your gear for different type of user vs. completely writing off high end equipment? it's part of journey, but at least let folks know that it is not just either/or....and teach them how to shop with a good ear? i think cables do matter, but ONLY with right equipment and very few own that equipment. most systems don't need it, but a few (even tho very small few) do.
bi-amp (2 separate amps) but you can adjust the volume for both drivers separately, even the little differences is a huge advantage?
Well the single stereo amp output a + b bi wire connection is not correct? a: LF b: HF
But seriously I just bought a pair of Kef R 11s they are fully broken in, about 4 months old and I'm thinking of bi amping with a Denon 4308ci you think it's worth the trouble.. thanks in advance
I can sum this much too long video up very quickly by my experience.
Bi wiring can work, Ive done this and the sound was different when bi wired, whether its better is uto the individual.
Bi amping is without doubt , better. I currently bi amp , it adds more detail and separation , I woukd thoroughly recommend a 6mm thick multi strand copper speaker cable , no need for expensive boutique cables, this will add imaging .
There you go. Simple.
Leave this to someone who actually knows the physics. I do not mean these guys btw
Thanks for the helpful information!
People that biwire have to actually remove the bridge on their Speakers. I don't understand why they would think something changed.