Bi-Wiring, Part 1: 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑺𝒆𝒄𝒓𝒆𝒕 𝑻𝒓𝒖𝒕𝒉 𝑹𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒂𝒍𝒆𝒅
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Video PART 1: Bi-wiring (not to be confused with bi-𝙖𝙢𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜) is a method of connecting a loudspeaker with separate high and low frequency input terminals to a single amp channel, using TWO runs of twin lead [two conductor (+/-) wire], said to improve performance over the use of a normal, single run. The claimed benefits vary based on whom you ask, but Sound and Vision magazine, the largest and oldest audio magazine in the US, described the benefits (some maintain exist), as:
"While some experts maintain that bi-wiring can have a beneficial effect by allowing the high- and low-frequency portions of the audio signal to be separately routed to the high- and low-frequency drivers in the speaker. . ." www.soundandvision.com/conten...
This video is an in-depth analysis of the ACTUAL difference. Watch it to learn the secret truth most people don't know! After watching this you'll have a better understanding of bi-wiring than, I'd guess, nearly 99% of so-called audio industry "experts"!
00:00 Intro and Terminology
06:18 The Music Signal Pathways
12:29 VOLTAGE Differences
14:46 Testing The Claims
𝐍𝐎𝐓𝐄: 𝐁𝐢-𝙖𝙢𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝐢𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐩𝐥𝐞𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐲 𝐝𝐢𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐛𝐢-𝐰𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝙉𝙊𝙏 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐭𝐨𝐩𝐢𝐜 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐯𝐢𝐝𝐞𝐨. It gets mentioned in passing (but only briefly) in order to explain the distinctions between bi-amping and bi-wiring, since so many people confuse the two. 3:27
Roger Russell, a retired engineer, inventor, and once Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory, Inc. is one of the few sources online who doesn't spread marketing lies in his discussion of speaker wires. He also provides a useful wire table to determine what wire gauge to use for a particular situation, here: roger-russell.com/wire/wire.ht...
The Audio Critic magazine (1977 to c. 2015) published a great exposé (including on the topic of bi-wiring) titled "The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio", you can read here: www.biline.ca/audio_critic/ma...
[Note: Their original website no longer exists but there's one which has swiped their domain name which seems completely different and more like an ad-centric Amazon affiliated site, it seems to me, so I'm providing this alternate "biline.ca" one instead.]
Because of the article's great importance, Ecoustics decided to reprint it online at their site as well, here: www.ecoustics.com/articles/te...
Sound effects were made by either my mouth or common kitchen appliances, I recorded and processed in Audacity.
This video have been simplified or dumbed down to appeal to a broad audience without technical backgrounds, including ones with little to no education in electrical theory nor psycho-acoustics. This is why the first third of the video is devoted to bringing people up to speed with the electrical symbols and industry lingo/terminology, so they can follow along with the rest of the presentation. As I point out with on-screen text at one point 12:40, some statements I may make in the video, like the signals are "exactly the same", I don't mean LITERALLY, but rather: "By 'exactly the same' I mean the music signal (voltage) is effectively FULL range, i.e., the HF and LF voltage content happily intermingle here . . . " There are a few other minor points I verbalized poorly, sorry.
One of the most important principles in audio is that just because two things can be found to be subtly different electrically does not prove they differ audibly. For that we use blind listening tests. From my AVS forum post:
""Bi-Wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency". - Polk
A cursory google search on just this statement alone, in quotes, seems to bring up numerous examples endorsing bi-wiring from at least the following companies and/or their retailers, on just the first page of the results:
Polk: "Bi-Wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency . . . "
Definitive Technology: "The result is an improvement in the midrange that many enthusiasts believe is significant "
Crutchfield: "A bi-wire cable. . . can improve treble and bass performance. "
Fluance: "How do I use the bi-wiring connections to increase the performance of my system?"
Denon: "Bi-wiring’s advantages are generally considered to be more subtle than bi-amping and center around better control of back EMF (electromotive force) from the speaker drivers and increased definition."
AudioMaxx/Monitor Audio: "Bi-wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency"
SVS: "Bi-wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency"
B&W, Bower and Wilkins: "Bi-wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency"
ELAC: "Bi-wiring can provide noticeable improvements in the overall transparency "
Past this first page of google results there are even more."
Part 2 focuses more on the CURRENT split: • Bi-Wiring, Pt 2: A Cle... - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Great video! The only slight difference in single vs biwiring is cable impedance which is negligible lF Your using a sufficient gauge.
Thanks! Since you, Gene, have a degree in electrical engineering and on top of that work professionally specifically in the field of high-end audio gear review and analysis, I am honored you like it! I think you will dig Part 2 and 3 even more because I reveal something that's mind blowing, at least it was for me!
@@m.zillch3841 I have very basic electrical and electronics training, just barely touching the surface. So when I saw the algorithm presented me with your gift, I had to view it immediately.
Thanks for your time explaining it for the layman and the more knowledgeable. This is pure logic as long as you understand the basics.
I always wondered why even "cheaper" speakers are offering bi-wiring terminals. Now I know why thanks to you. Your work is validated by professionals and that's even more reassuring. Please release parts 2 and 3 when you can. My mouth is watering. ✌️👍
@@mafcarvalho Thanks for your very nice comment! My TH-cam channel is un-monetized so the only reward I get is comments like yours and seeing my viewership grow (an increase in views and subscribers). You and others can help me out by providing a link to this video in the various forums you visit. If you liked it then your friends likely will too!
Yeah imagine a guy using twenty two gauge. Haha
@@m.zillch3841 Oh, I'm gonna be sharing a link to your site. However, be advised there are going to be some hostile people. They LOVE to spend small fortunes on unnecessary cables.
Can't wait for Parts 2 and 3!
Working for 52 years in the audio industry (with an MSEE degree) I always said that it should be spelled BUY-WIRE.
Ha! Yes. Bi-wiring definitely provides a benefit though . . . to the dealer selling twice as much wire as the customer actually needs: Bi-profits.
@@m.zillch3841 well. Nowsa days bi/buy/by/bye-wire can self identify how they wish without discrimination from you people
@@garrettgiuffre7298 "Discrimination" as a word, and its meaning is not negative when applied in the scientific realm. It only becomes such when you infuse with subjective opinion. Discriminate between A and B - that's all - "you people".
Haha, that's gold 🙂
LOL good one
Switching between hobbies I learned: Every hobby has it's own bogus myth. From photography to cycling to hiking to hifi audio. This is one.
Thanks but when you read a Nikon camera or lens manual does it re-inforce the myth? Because that's what's going on with bi-wiring: nearly all manufacturers refuse to explain the truth.
A number of years ago I swaped my bi-wire cables for single wire and could not tell the difference apart from keeping the wife happy as less cable crossing the floor.
My speakers are powered through 14 AWG 41/30 stranded wire so that the signal can split itself up into 41 separate segments of the frequency range and each one of those take its own dedicated path from the amp to the cabinet. The sound is AMAZING!!!!!!!! The clarity is so pronounced that I can hear when a kazoo needs to be re-tuned.
Each time the sound jumps from one strand to the next I can hear it has opened a new portal to the fifth dimension:th-cam.com/video/vbCH5lnZ6sA/w-d-xo.html
What are your speakers?
@@roxrolldog The Dominator MX-10 th-cam.com/video/EAyJmIXcyMg/w-d-xo.html
They are the flagship of the Dominator line.
Thanks for the smile .
I use 12 g. Ox fre. Copper.
There is a difference.
Well, I have to also add my two cents to this discussion. Up until recently, I had the same conclusion as you on Bi-wiring. I am 70 and been in and around the music/sound/retail/manufacturing industries since I was in my early 20's and also a multi-instrument Musician. At one time I even went the route of TRI-amping with three amps, a high quality electronic crossover and direct runs to woof/mid/tweets. I then paired it all down, back to one amp to passive X-overs in the speakers. I have spent many years supporting your conclusion until recently. I just bought and had recapped a "Classic" Adcom 5802 with power MOSFETs and also own Polk LSiM 705 speakers. My whole system is of high quality and I have built it for High Definition, but for this discussion, from the power amp out to the speakers is all that is relevant. Since the POLKs and the Adcom both have Dual / Dual binding posts for each channel, I thought I would try wiring them Bi-wire configuration using Audioquest HD speaker runs that I already owned from my Tri-amp days. It made a tremendous difference! I then went back and cut down the runs of the wiring to just what I needed, keeping ALL runs equal in length. That made even a LARGER DIFFERENCE! I was amazed at the detail of the it all; transparency, depth of field, imaging and defined and tight bass! All I can say in conclusion is this: This method DOES alter the ELECTRICAL characteristics from what I had had previously (which is why I detailed what I had previously), as it reduces total impedance and alters both capacitance and induction to the speakers. I no longer have the equipment to measure it all, but it REALLY made a THEMENDUS IMPROVEMENT to MY system....and I was NOT a believer for all of these years. I did it and it worked, guess I am from Missouri, the SHOW ME state!!! THANKS
Since in your detailed description you make no mention of your testing having been done under blind conditions, can we correctly assume it was sighted?
Yes. Those were my simular results. Sound Improvement via Bi-wiring.
No special machines other than two ears are needed. It either sounds better than before, no different, or worse?
Monster Cable was a finacial success! It was not snake oil.
Heck! I've changed out my power cord with verifiable sound improvement. Using the same theory. More wire. More electrical flow.
That's hilarious.
Sounds like you cleaned off the corrosion on your plugs with all that plugging and unplugging...
As a professional loudspeaker engineer it’s refreshing to hear someone debunking the myth about biwiring instead of gushing nonsense about sound improvements. Biamping is different but comes with it’s own set of difficulties including level matching, internal phase issues, differences between amps of things like slew rates and output impedance etc etc . Simple advice for hifi enthusiast? Use one amp or better still one pair of monos with their own power supplies. Always use an amp with more than enough headroom to swing current demands of the loudspeaker being driven. Nothing more or netter is needed. Many people use amps which can be marginal when power demands pick up or the classic one us ysing fashionable single ended amps with little or no feedback so have no bass control through lack of damping factor. No amount of power in a SET amp can overcome low damping factor since it is related purely to damping factor.
What's your take on some receivers having the option for bi-amping? Do they still have these problems, or are they processing that internally?
Good morning Paul C. I would like to have some more information from you about this explanation you gave here about the Hi-Fi enthusiasts and how this damping effect and level matching in the internal phasing our supplies to HiFi systems like the one that I have. For example I have a Pioneer amp it turned on lights up but does not have any output from the speaker connections. What would you suggest would be the first thing for me to look at on the motherboard inside to find out why it's not having any output to the speaker wires.
@@nsday1 If they use room correction, like my Marantz that also had the bi-amp option, they may be able to correct for levle mis-matches and possible phase differences (the room correction software was able to detect out of phase speakers). The amps also were all of the same type since they are in the same box, so they can also have identical electrical specs. I believe my Marantz had a set of front and zone 2 amps that were the same.
Děkuji To mi otevřelo oči. Ve vašem vysvětlení je to vlasně logické jen mi to potvrdilo co jsem si už dávno myslel. 👍👍👍
Thanks for the simple and effective method for demonstrating Norton's and Thévenin's theorems. The fact that so many people actually "buy-wire" their speakers clearly shows many things: the importance of cognitive bias is grossly underestimated; most audiophiles are extremely gullible; there is a good reason why audio gurus vigorously reject blind ABX comparisons. High End HiFi has a lot more to do with religion than science, and audiophiles prove it every day.
I appreciated your complete and honest explanations! Thank you!
Thanks
Dear M Zillch
What a splash looking your video so nicely and profund explained (slowly and clear) that also non US people can fully understand. Your deep knowledge and vast experiences are so valuable and more importantly to save loads of money. During the last months I watch so many videos getting only confused the more I watch. My opinion is now clear, also underpinned by the articles you attached. In my opinion what matters could be buying a good shielded cable and make it by yourself. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge! Watching next video now.
With my kindest regards from Switzerland,
Peter
Thanks. Shielded wires are necessary for low level signals such as analog RCA wires but I do not recommend using it for speaker wires.
I'm going back around 20 years ago when Technics amplifier died. I had around a £500 budget to replaced my previous amp, so I started some research. I arranged an appointment with my then local store Audio Excellence In Cardiff south wales UK. During my visit I did learn about Bi amping, and Bi Wireing. A week later I was sold on the idea, and subsequently exceeded my budget into several thousands of pounds. I purchased 1x pre amp, and 4 power amps, all Rotel. As well as the amps I also purchased a pair of Bowers and Wilkins 704s. I still have all of these components today and the system is still sounding awesome, with no issues whatsoever. I think my only complaint was that the system really needs to be driven at quite high volume to get that bass I require. The bass issue was overcome by the purchase of a Sunfire 1000w subwoofer. The system now has around 1780 watts in all, that has never been pushed passed the 12 o clock position. This system does really give you that experience of a live, full on rock act with clarity, and eye vibrating bass. I have often wondered if I could have achieved this with 2 power amps, one running each speaker, and if anything would be compromised at all ????????
Nevertheless, I hope my system will continue to give me many more years of weekend music experiences that I very much enjoy. Great video.
Thank you sir, now I finally understand better.
The main advantage of bi-wiring is that it doubles manufacturers' sales and improves their margins ! 😉
. . . and that why this myth will never die: as long as there's money to be made the marketers will continue their lies.
I own a ton of Sonus Faber. I have the entire Home Collection. So great; just single binding posts. Franco Serblin believed more in listening to the changes that can be made to your crossover. I heard or read years back, that his earlier designs had bi-wire option because if he didn’t do it, his speakers would not sell. The Home series, the Cremona and others before he sold the company were ALL single binding posts. Then, the new managers brought back bi-wiring. He started another speaker company; Franco Serblin, all single binding posts. He passed in 2013. His son (in-law) runs the company now. Single binding posts. I have just picked up a pair abused SF Concerto Grand Piano. So beat up and you can longer find the drivers. Going to change some stuff but might just change the terminal cup to single. Hopefully Mr Serblin will not be upset with me from heaven.
Edit: I was really surprised to see the CONCERTO GPS at the end of your video; Confirmed my post as well. One of my pair is missing the tweeter and woofer ( luckily the passives are there). I played some Beach Boys in mono. Holy smokes. Such a balanced speaker. I really would like to get those marble bases.
Thank you so much. Have a pair of speakers that have the bi wiring option and thought I was missing out on a better' sound output. Your informative video has set the record straight.
Thanks. Part 2 is even better and addresses some of the marketing tricks they use to combat the true science: th-cam.com/video/NJhFxuymlCI/w-d-xo.html
If you do decide to bi-wire your speakers, leave the shorting bars in place. That way you get the benefit of the halved wire resistance.
I wouldn't call that "bi-wiring" I'd call it "dual wiring", but yes, I'd do that over true bi-wiring if I was for some odd reason stuck with an inadequate wire to use as a tidy, single run.
Very interesting points made in your video. Enjoyed it!
I remember reading several articles back in the day on this. And I came to many of the same conclusions about bi-wiring. And my speakers are actually capable of tri-wiring and a LFE input. The thing I would be somewhat sold on would be bi-wiring with different wire for each range, low, mid and high. This was said to create better sound through each range depending on the impedance of the wire used and at lest one company had done the research and had several types of wire labeled for each range. I could kinda see this but decided the incremental sound changes would not be that obvious to someone who attended loud R&R concerts and wore a headset on the job sacrificing one ear to all sorts of input throughout a lifetime. Better to spend my money on room treatment, better amplification and strippers 🤔…. Er, better TV.
Now bi-AMPING I can get behind because of the potential power that could be dedicated to each range. And many speakers are said to really open up when truly worked or given the opportunity to ‘breathe’ with more power. But again, I’m not sure the sonic benefits would be audible except for louder sound.
Thanks for the informative video!
This argument the marketers use of "You can use a wire that's great for the high frequencies for the tweet and a different kind that's great for the lows on the woof" is a scam to make you buy TWO overpriced wires instead of just one affordable wire good for all frequencies. In truth, wires that provide great, accurate, FULL range sound are easy to come by and very affordable, so their argument is BS made to dupe you. Don't confuse this with me saying "all wires sound the same". That's not correct and I am not saying that. Sure, if you perversely wanted to, one could design a wire that compromises, say, just the highs but lets the lows pass through just fine, and such wires indeed exist, but it would be rather silly to intentionally use such a wire when accurate ones good at ALL audible frequencies are common and affordable.
If one were to wire up a bi-wireable speaker using this wire with compromised high frequency performance on the tweet, making an audible difference, it doesn't prove "bi-wiring works" as much as it proves "some wires suck".
Hey ... it's just wire. There is no magic.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 My dealer said even the wire-hanger will work just fine.😂
@@Turtleback8024
I've been using 16ga copper lamp wire, from the hardware store, for over 30 years with no problems at all.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 There you go!!!😂👍🏼
Gracias estimado por tu trabajo y tu tiempo. Muy interesante y didáctico el video. Gracias!!! Saludos cordiales.
Brilliant video. This makes so much sense, cause from the set up the cross over is still in play even when bi-wired. And bi-wiring is useless without a cross over in place. Kind of circular reasoning.
Really good explanation. Thanks for your work on this. I do bi-amp and I do hear a difference, but my 2nd system (with an integrated) is now only 'normally' wired.
You mean biwired or you really mean biamped?
Bi-amp is totally different animal.
Bi amp isn't the same as bi wiring.
I met a guy once that had made some speaker cables using bunches of copper braid and had made them about 4 times thicker than decent car jumper cables. I asked him what size the wires were inside the speaker ........
Or inside the amp - leading to the terminal. I have to admit I have been very disappointed when opening up things over the years. But length obviously plays a role. Think of it as water. Thin hose vs. thick hose. At some point making the hose thicker will not improve the flow.
I wreszcie na starość zrobiłem się technikiem elektrykiem. Uratowałeś wiele ofiar wierzeń. Dziękuję i pozdrawiam z Polski.
Thanks
Thank you for helping to keep the wisdom of Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic) alive. Best audio mag ever!
It's an often low down dirty fight for your money in audio these days.
Money is scarce so thanks for helping us spend it better.
@@josefserf1926
Just follow the old rule ...
"If it seems too good to be true... it probably is"
Aczel was one of the very few sane minds in the audio world that is now populated by a bunch ignorant myth makers, credulity manipulators and opportunists. Sad situation...
15m 27s.Neither are carrying the full range current when connected to either of the speaker terminals. And it's current that makes speaker drivers produce sound. Of course you'll measure full bandwidth signal (voltage) at either of the speaker terminals, but if you measure what makes the drivers move (and produce sound), current, you'll discover something different. Please note, I'm not claiming that bi-wiring improves, or even changes sound quality, I'm just stating that there is an electrical difference between single and bi-wiring, and it's not simply a case of "more wire".
Part two, coming soon, specifically focuses on explaining why the current comparison points you are pointing out are actually an invalid comparison.
@@m.zillch3841 Can't wait. My "comparison" is more of a statement of scientific fact, but I assume you have a new theory which will prove it to be incorrect.
@@ProffAndy I can't wait for the second part of the 'Flat earthers electronics' as well ;)
@@rogerwebb7501 At last, someone else who actually understands what bi-wiring does (electronically). It amuses me that I read so many comments about the benefits of replacing manufacturer's speaker jumper bars with jumper cables, and so many comments about bi-wiring making no difference. A basic understanding of electronic theory proves that bi-wiring is far more likely to change how a speaker sounds than simply replacing a short jumper link.
@@rogerwebb7501 In a previous life I was a TV repair engineer. Our training included a good understanding of ohm's law and filtering theory. I've forgotten a lot of what we were taught (it wasn't required much in my job then, and even less now), but I remember enough to recognise a lot of the BS I read on audiophile forums.
Thank you for this explanation. The hifi market can be quite a minefield for us consumers! Especially, for those of us who are not engineers and experts.
This is why I constantly advise "audiophiles" to invest a bit of time in the many online courses in electronics from accredited colleges ... not the manufacturer's websites.
A little knowledge makes it very hard to lie to you...
@@rogerwebb7501
Take the drawings beginning at 20:25 ....
In the conventional wiring situation obviously all current passes through the single wire and is divided inside the speaker for woofer and tweeter.
Biwiring where the binding posts at both end are connected together makes no difference as explained.
But in the bi-wired version where the crossover is split inside the speaker, the situation is more complex. It is true that the amplifier is only producing a single signal and the voltages are the same at both sets of speaker terminals. However, because of the filters inside the speaker cabinet, the currents diverge at the amplifier's output with only the low frequency currents flowing on the woofer lead and only high frequency currents on the tweeter lead.
This can produce a noticeable difference in output if the single wire used in the conventional methods was inadequate to the task of handling both currents.
Where the losses in a single wired system are minimal, it is very unlikely bi-wiring brings much of an advantage, except to those selling the wires.
Just the first bit of Ohm's law... "Current is the result of applying voltage across an impedance" (I = E / R) would allow anyone to make such an analysis with ease and this whole debate would be over in a couple of minutes.
Good Video, Simplistic and I was hooking up my first Bi Amping Speakers not sure if they will have more clarity, but I do now, with one sigle video. Thank You
Thank you for the video. As much as I understand this very well and to me it does totally fit the bill I have a pair of Castle Inversion 50 speakers with bi wiring/amping posts. When bridged there is a difference in sound when plugging them on the top set compared to the bottom one. Don't ask me why but it is to the point where I really hate their sound when plugged to the top. The same when I bi wire I can hear a very noticeable difference after a couple of minutes specially in the top end and how wide the speakers sound. Don't ask me what it is nothing changes but the wiring, these are regular speaker wires (as I don't believe in that) etc. It is the only set of speakers that does it. Different amps from tube to class D tried everything a weekend when I didn't have anything better to do. Fun though.
It shouldn't matter if you wire to the top inputs or the bottom ones on a speaker with the jumper straps in place IF the jumper straps are working properly. There are many reasons why they may not work properly though, where they are not making a good electrical connection:
- they are bent
- they are soiled with invisible finger oil from eating a peanut butter sandwich (ha ha)
- they are dislodged
- they are not seated properly
- they are not tightened down securely
etc.. Jumper straps are usually a solid bar of gold-plated metal but ones which are short lengths of wire could potentially have broken internal strands and how they flex will alter their conductivity/resistance of the bridge. This could give the illusion the top posts perform differently than the bottom posts, but it is really the integrity of the connections. The crimped on spade lugs at the ends of such short lengths of wire also may be compromised and are only making a partial connection without the full current capability of a good, solid, clean, peanut-butter-free connection. ha ha
- -
@@m.zillch3841 In my case would be dulce de leche LOL. Yeah well I am mentioning this because I took measures to prevent bad connections etc, changed connectors, wires, and the bridge it is the gold plated one, but I've made my own as well with speaker wire as you suggest in the video. Can't talk about internals as I did not remove anything to check. I understand that it shouldn't make any difference I am just mentioning my experience because even not buying the snake oil I did find a case when I can say it does sound different. Thank you!
Mr. Zillch, your so CORRECT! It's nothing more than $$$ in the Sellers pocket. I will never PAY more Money, for anything if I can't hear the "DIFFERENCE"! Because that's what it's all about WRIGHT? Good-quality AMPS, and Speaker these days are pretty dam good...... any gains in it's MUSICAL performance will be minimal, by adding Audio Jewelry. Yes, each AMP has it's own Signature Sound, and so do the Speakers. I have 4 different AMPS, and just as many pair of Speakers...... They all sound different, when I mix and match them,,,, the only REAL Difference... is WHICH ONE'S DO I USE for a certain genre(s). My Tube AMP is Superior in SOUND, (To ME) if I'm playing Blues & Jazz,,,,, but on the other hand, it's not the AMP I choose for Pop or Rock. I've seen dealers that DEMO there Brand(s) of speakers they want to Sale you,,,, run the Music throw a $10,000.00 AMP, and when you get those Speakers home, they sound nothing like what you heard at the SNAKE SHOP! Stereo Imaging, Stage Placement, on and on, I believe these things are in the RECORDING, they have to be in order to HEAR it..... just some AMPS and Speaker are better at bring those factors out. Stop throwing your MONEY away, Mr. Zillch has give you SOUND ADVICE!
He has nothing to GAIN, but the SNAKE SHOP do $$
The only way I would "buy" into the "bi-wire" fantasy is if the passive crossover was external of the speaker and was placed as close to the amplifier output as possible. This would actually then reduce the length of cable that has both signals on it and could possibly reduce any EMI. The longer the runs and the higher the power differential between the high and low signal the more this could MAYBE make a difference.
Again these are the most extreme examples I can think of where it is possible that a small benefit could exist.
Or the crossover is in the DSP in the amp.
@@projector7141 that is what is called biamped. I think that is better but that requires more amp channels. Biwire is from 1 amp channel. I agree that biamped is better.
I've Bi-Amped and have 4 Audiolab 8000 MX 125W monoblocks for the main speakers and a stereo amp for the centre speaker. I've bi wired the rears though.
I've been designing high performance speakers for over 30 years and have never provided a bi-wire option. If anything, having the option to bi-wire on a loudspeaker can often mean the crossover is less optimally designed than it could be. I guess one cannot argue with the claim, "but I can hear a difference" because those making the claim refuse to be subject to any form of controlled test, but at least it allows the rest of us to judge the credibility of their opinions about other aspects of audio. The comment made at the end by Sonus Faber says it all.
Agreed. Interestingly that secret confided to me by the Sonus Faber rep is nearly identical to others I've read about, including to long time Stereophile magazine reviewer Kal Rubinson:
"𝗥𝗲: 𝗕𝗶𝘄𝗶𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴
At least two major producers of high-end loudspeakers have told me that they provide bi-wiring/bi-amping terminals because their dealers and consumers demand them and not because they see any value in their use. Off the record, of course.
Kal"
Kal Rubinson entry dated July 11, 2006 - 6:20am, here: www.stereophile.com/content/biwiring-1
bi amping can make a difference and the panels allows that.
Great video, thanks!
I'd say, the only thing that one could do is to change the stock bridge with a pice of good copper wire. On the other had - considering the length of that bridge (10cm at most), this is negligible.
Bi wiring is just some fancy look which makes the owner happy 🙂 why not be happy 😀
Yeah that link will be in uR, impossible to lose audioble quality.
You know what bridge (I call them "jumper straps") sounds absolutely PERFECT? The use of none at all! i.e., a speaker with a singular pair of input posts, not these silly dual post designs which are just introducing more connection points for potential failure, the failure of the jumpers themselves, or where the user may accidentally invert the polarity. Common problems include soiled contacts, bent jumper bar, poorly seated jumper bar, corrosion, poorly tightened connections, stripped threads, a poorly crimped spade lug on the wire, etc.. I've seen it MANY times and many of my customers over the decades I sold these designs have complained along the lines of: "Why does my left speaker sound dull?" It's because the tweeter section isn't getting a signal because some part of this useless added complexity, based on mythology, has failed on them. How often does the tweeter section fail on single pair binding post speakers? NEVER, unless something INSIDE the speaker cabinet fails.
The connector straps used my most manufacturers are functionally equivalent to 6ga wire.
Honestly, when I saw the title, I was expecting some derp incoming. How refreshing to see a video on the subject that doesn't rely entirely on the removal of lipids from snakes!
The fact my three way speakers only have two sets of binding posts tells you all you need to know. But in reality, the profit margin on "audiophile" speaker wires (and power cords, rca cables, fuses, etc) is astronomical, so it's easy to see why dealers push this stuff, and the gear manufacturers recommend them as a courtesy to the dealers they rely on to sell their products.
You nailed it.
Thank you. The last two minutes were the best.
Do you know of any easily understood examples of separate treble and bass amps that are for simple two way speakers?
We all know of one area where biamping is used. That is the amplified sub woofer which along with its two way speaker uses a main amp and the amp in the sub.
Biwiring is out the window with a three way speaker. Anyone for tri-wiring? How about quad?
Once in the store the guy selling told me, you have to bi-wire, and use silver for highs and cupper for lows, as the silver transmit best highs, and so for cupper, (or maybe the other way around don't remember) .... he was just trying to sell me two pairs of expensive cables
The salesman must have thought you were loading!
Makes me wonder what kind of metals a TV or a computer must contain :) If cables make significant differences at 0-20kHz then it is actually very improbable that TVs or computers were ever invented.
My illusion has convinced me that bi wiring my speakers improved, especially in the crossover’s range where the speakers blend. Fortunately my wires are much more affordable but I’m hooked!
40 years I've been making experiments on obtaining the best pleasant sound. The crossovers makes the sound best suited for different types of ears different from others. Sound processors balances the loudness equalised sound output.
Wow a great job of explaining bi-wiring! So the only that can improve your speakers is the gauge of wires! Now i understand when I purchased a set of speakers at Goodwill a passive subwoofer with two mono blocks one for each satellite speaker? But they wove two wires for each speaker terminal four wires instead of two wires! But the funny speaker set up? Running everything in to the subwoofer and then out to each separate speaker! Had a great sound? Wasn't sure if was the double wiring? Or the unusual speakers system of the Micron GS-5's & GS-10 subwoofer! I subscribed to your channel and at the same time you answered my old question of how to wire my old Toshiba SS-47 & SS-37 concaved 3 way speakers! They are over 50 years old purchased on the Rock (Okinawa) in 1973! They been around the world 🌎 and then some! Thanks again be Cool!
I know some audiophile nuts will poo-poo this video, but this is exactly what it really is. Bi-wiring makes no real difference as it is just one circuit. It is exactly the same as just running thicker cable to the speakers.
Unfortunately some believe the bogus, the same ones that will pay thousands of dollars for a power cable that is identical to the $5 power cable, but because it is labelled a certain way or has a different colour of the plastic, suddenly it is so much better......
Great explanation of a grossly misunderstood "feature". If a set of speakers legitimately sound different when bi-wired I would return them immediately, as that's likely just a sign of a poorly designed crossover. (Active) bi-AMPing on the other hand is indeed a completely different beast, and well worth the effort when implemented correctly. Would love to see you do a video on that!
Thanks. I may address bi-amping in the future as well, but since you already seem to get the distinction between passive and active I'm not sure what value the video would be for you, other than you'd have a video to direct other people to! ha ha
The interesting thing to do is remove the filters, and use something like a dbx driverack pa2 and two amps, then you play pink noise to each driver to see where they play the best, then send a better digitally filtered signal to each, you MAKE a DSP better crossover; then pay music and can hear the difference, as you can remove some resonances with parametric eq, etc. You can work your way toward better audio as you can fight the problems of the cabinets, the drivers, the room modes by tweaking the signals. The same with a subwoofer : the dsp enable more slope in the filters. So you have less problems in the frequency domains where the drivers overlap. In a room with a lot of problems, it is better to listen to audio with some missing parts than a full signal with muddy resonances.
Did this recently, no more bad sounding crossovers, I chose a DBX 234xs active crossover, But it is being fed by a DBX PA2 :P
@@QuinnKallisti for me the DBX PA2 does it all : 2 way + sub. I think I have a repeatable and concrete gain in clarity. Also I can combat room modes better.
Great video with simple to understand diagrams. Thank you.
Thanks.
@@m.zillch3841 I found your video straightforward and honest. I loved how you mentioned the Thomas Edison quote, and how the quote still resonates today. Thanks again.
@@johnfitzgerald4456 Thanks. I learned that great Edison quote from a Dr. Sean Olive article, reiterated with a pic of one of Edison's "Live vs. recorded" blind tests, here: twitter.com/seanolive/status/1619900497531650048
Thank goodness you presented some accurate information here....I started watching this video fully intending to call you out but thankfully I didn't have to!
22:09 If the customer is so fool to buy fancy expensive speaker cables, then why not fool him twice? He deserves the treatment! Hahaha
This is amazing, great info!
I tried bi-wiring my Paradigm studio 100 v2s into my Yamaha A-S801 because Yamaha claimed it would sound better but it didn’t. It sounded pretty poor actually. It killed the bass but it definitely made a big difference. It sounds really good with cable jumpers and one set of speaker wire plugged in up top. I also tried plugging into the bottom connectors on the speakers and I didn’t like that either. I also have a Yamaha Aventage A/V receiver that allows for what Yamaha calls bi-amping and that actually made a big improvement in sound with that amp and same speakers. So in my experience this can all make a difference in sound.
You have to play with it and find what works best for your set up.
Dude, such a satisfying video. You knocked it out of the park. Just bought dual post speakers but don't have the gear to bi-amp them, so traditional configuration it will be. Thanks.
Thanks
Very good explanation of the bi-wire myth.
The cross over does the job to separate low and high frequencies and also keeping the load impeadance correct.
Correct. If you split the crossover at the speaker by removing the jumper links, you can send low and high frequency current separately through two cables.
@@ProffAndy
No you can't. If the two wires you run across your room are connected together at the amplifier, you are sending exactly the same signal to both.
The only way to individuate them is with a line level crossover and bi-amping.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 If you measure current between the amp and the low frequency speaker terminals, only low frequency current will be detected. Likewise, only high frequency current is carried by the cable between the amp and HF terminals. Current (which causes the speaker drivers to produce sound) is split between the cables in a bi-wire configuration. That's an easily proven scientific fact.
@@ProffAndy
I know perfectly well how a speaker works.
Yes, there will be a difference in current between the two leads. But unless you are using inadequately sized wire, that won't make a whole lot of difference to the sonic results.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I stated that in my first comment, which you claimed was incorrect.
Nice job! I’m on board. I’ve never heard any difference with biwiring. Just doesn’t make sense.
Now biamping is a totally different subject. I have heard a huge difference with biamping
Very well presented, I think some people with high resolving gear, might hear a slight difference with bi-wiring due ONLY to the added conductor gauge, therefore reduced resistance. Thank you.
They would hear no difference IF they had been using an adequate gauge of wire from the get go with a low resistance. Sound does not get better, and better, and better still, as you increase the wire size above the necessary gauge for the task. Sure, you have to adhere to guidelines I linked to provided by experts like Roger Russell, but getting any thicker, or using two parallel runs of perfectly fine wire when run individually, has no audible consequences regardless of how expensive the speaker is.
In a bi-wired system the wires are *not* electrically in parallel, and therefore do not result in lower resistance. The woofer (which uses the most power), is still being fed by a single run of wire. The separate one going to the tweeter doesn't help. Dual wiring, as described in the video, is more likely to make a difference in this regard.
@@immovableobjectify If you drive two speakers (happens to be different kinds, a woof and a tweet in this case) from a single amplifier output "bi-wired" (or from a short extension wire applied to that singular amp channel output leading from the internal amp to the binding posts on the outside of the cabinet), with two two-conducter speaker wires, running in parallel from the amp's single output, these two speakers are said to be "driven in parallel", as opposed to the alternate possibility of driving two speakers from one amp: two speakers being driven sequential in a series along a circular route, called "being driven in series".
@@m.zillch3841
Exactly ... beyond "adequate", no gain.
The easy analogy is to notice that a car does not get easier to tow if you use a bigger chain.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I like that way to put it, thanks.
Great video and excellent explanation to bust the myth around bi-wiring.
I wasn't aware anyone believed that the two cables used in bi-wiring were intended to carry "separate high and low frequencies!" That particular straw man is hardly worth dignifying with contrary evidence, but your diligence in doing so on camera is certainly admirable. I always thought the idea of bi-wiring was to emulate the properties of "star grounding." That is, by connecting the two ground sections of the crossover all the way back at the amplifier you could reduce the coupling that could otherwise occur via a common ground plane in the crossover's PCB.
An example from a Crutchfield ad for Audioquest wires: "The benefits of bi-wiring.
When a full-range signal is sent through a single speaker cable, the interaction of the magnetic fields created by the different frequencies can negatively impact the sound produced by your speakers. In particular, large amounts of bass energy can interfere with more delicate high frequencies. Bi-wiring transfers audio signals separately to your speaker's woofer and tweeter inputs, eliminating this distortion-causing interaction."
Amp maker PS Audio describes it as: "Bi-wiring is the practice of feeding the upper frequencies and the lower frequencies with separate speaker cables, from the same power amplifier."
@@m.zillch3841 I see your point.
It went without saying I thought, that cables didn't carry the separate frequencies.
I remember bi-wiring being a big thing in the 90s. I was dubious even back then, although the back emf seemed plausible to me. The extra resistance back to the amplifier may of helped.
But I could never hear any difference, and I refused to buy expensive speaker cable. 15A copper mains cable, sounds good to me. And if you get 3-core, you can bi-wire with a common ground :)
@@StuartJ I'm confidant I know the reason why you didn't hear a difference: because there was no audible difference.
Bi-wiring does separate high and low frequency currents which are carried separately by the two pairs of wires in the bi-wire cable. That is a fact that a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp.
Very interesting and good knowledge provided, thanks for the information
Polk 700 speakers ,Yamaha 803 amp. Just Bi wired them this morning from both A -B speaker outputs. Noticed a difference straight away. Sounds more tight and bright. Didn't think it would but I have noticed a difference for the better. Thank you.
Was your test conducted under blind conditions or is that not necessary? If the sound becomes "more tight and bright" how do you explain that nobody has ever been able to either record or measure this difference? If I'm testing if I have telekinesis (mind over matter) and try flipping a coin, trying to force it to be "tails" with my mind, and I'm successful, does that prove I indeed have telekinesis?
@@m.zillch3841 Hi. Only what I've noticed while listening. No test ect. Only my ears. I listen to a lot of music every day and after Bi Wiring I noticed a difference. It's sounds clearer, brighter ,tighter . I m not a technician, just someone who loves listening to music and it's my way of saying that I noticed an improvement and that's all that matters to me. Thank you.
@chacha4119 Everyone, without exception, is subconsciously influence by prior knowledge and their other senses besides hearing. This bias we are unaware of is colloquially called "the placebo effect". As it applies to audio is firmly established and has been studied by published scientists like Dr. Sean Olive: seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html For the reasons he states audio tests need to be blind, not "sighted".
@@m.zillch3841 Hi. I sit down and listen to music for at least 5 hours every day and I don't really care for all the research and technical stuff ,I just listen to music with my ears and can feel it . I heard a difference and I'm happy with that and will continue to leave it as is. Many thanks for your comments.
@@chacha4119 Out of curiosity, do you admit the improved sound might just be a figment of your imagination?
Geat video, well explanied and demonstated. This and the 'Acoustic Research AE-XA!' video you did have enlightened me after years of text explainations, actually seeing and hearing its a big difference. I now have one request - could you do one on Bi Amping, so we'll kow if its worth it, Pleasseeeee!
I hope to do bi-amping some day too, but don't hold your breath because it could be months or even years away. I'll cut to the chase though: ACTIVE bi-amping can often be useful and many people do it without even realizing it! Setting an AVR to "speakers small" so its amp is only addressing the frequencies above the selected crossover frequency (often 80Hz, or so), and diverting the difficult to amplify deep bass below that to the outboard powered sub's amp, aka "bass management", is actually a variety of active bi-amping! PASSIVE bi-amping, on the other hand, the variety usually discussed in speaker's owner's manuals, is NEVER worth it and a complete waste of time, money, electricity, and speaker wire.
Remember adding cable changes the capacitance inductance balance. Many amplifiers are marginally stable. Whilst safe enough they change sound as previously described.
Great presentation with which I agree, but I would like to add that we profess that perfection, though impossible would theoretically be a straight wire with gain. We also profess to keep speaker cables as short as possible. Also profess that any excess cables, or connectors cause signal degradation as that signal travels from the source to the listeners ears. These are all fine tuning issues that admittedly don’t directly relate to your thesis with which I totally agree with and applaud.
I simply felt these additional issues could be helpful to those wishing to extract maximum fidelity from their systems. We’ll done.
Bi-wiring = Double the number of connection points = double the number of potential failure points = double the likelihood there will be some mishap or user error (for example, accidentally flipping the polarity of the left HF/tweeter input). Since bi-wiring has no benefits, a single run of an adequate gauge copper wire should be used.
Basically the takeaway from this is that in consumer electronics all bi wiring is doing is increasing the physical size of the "wire" going into the speaker box. And that bi wiring is 100% an amp thing and not a speaker thing. Basically there are only two occasions when bi wiring matters 1) you have inadequate gauge wires and the two together make it adequate and 2) You are bi amping since then the signal is truly on separate circuits since they come from two different sources
Yes, effectively, but personally I would not describe either form of bi-amping (active nor passive) as "varieties of bi-wiring". I think of bi-wiring, dual wiring, active bi-amping, and passive bi-amping as four distinctly different things even though all four use two sets of speaker cables.
Bi-Amping all the way!
I may do a video on bi-amping down the road but it won't be any time soon.
@@m.zillch3841 biamp via a and b channel on my old nad, a on HF and LF on b. Never going back to biwire only.
@@Error2username I sold those. Which NAD do you have?
So if bi wiring puts same load. How does biamping not do the same? Or is it just better power. And the speakers internals do the same work. Would the weakness just be the thin wires internal in the amps and speakers respectively
I bi wired my speakers, would love to bi amp if affordable. Too many things seem audible that make no sense schematically. When using a solid 14 copper wire bridge I thought I could distinguish which terminals went to the speaker wires. Being 70+ my ears aren’t what they used to be.
But if you test the sound on the input, and you send the same signal to the high and low channels why would you expect a different signal on the inputs? Most people can't really do anything with bi-wiring, I get that, but if you send the same signal to one side of the cable, you'll get the same signal on the other side of the signal, the difference is on the tweeter and woofer inputs.
Part 2, coming very soon (within days) addresses where it makes sense to make measurements for differences, vs. where the bi-wire marketers like to show differences exist.
Stability may be different with class D amplifiers. However many work like class AB in feedback structures. Some really nice amplifiers were super tuned to be almost unstable. Ironically these might sound more exciting rather than distorted. This was by exploiting the Nyquist graph. The so called VAS could be adjusted for optimum local negaitive feedback. Sometimes two pole to really take chances. John Lindsley Hood wrote about this. I think bi-wire came about in the 1980s. I doubt it would take root now. Alas it's part of the folklaw. It is possible pushing the stability further could sound different. Somethimes better. RFi might be involved . Audio Dynamics published a paper on output DC offest in bi-polar op amps. Power amps are similar.
What? I'm sorry but that just didn't make any sense at all.
None of this makes any sense !@@Douglas_Blake_579
Hi and thanks for the info. 30 years ago I fell for Bi-Wiring (I was naive then). I don't think it makes any significant difference to the sound, but my Yamaha A-S301 amplifier can Bi-wiring speaker output A for bass and output B for Treble left and right. Turn the speaker switch on the front to A+B and set the impedance switch on the back to the speaker's impedance. Then you have Bi-wiring correctly according to the manual. Have a nice day.
Thanks. I was a Yamaha dealer for over two decades so I am familiar with their stuff. For good measure I also download the A-301 manual and examined it usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/a-s301/downloads.html#product-tabs. Other than the added capability to turn off the tweeters vs. the woofers, say to verify they are working properly, on a 2-way speaker, by selecting JUST speakers A or JUST Speakers B, instead of normal "A+B/bi-wire mode", this is just like bi-wiring as described in my video. That switch on the front ensures both outputs, A + B, are both running, but they provide the exact same signal, i.e. a parallel connection to the same amp output. The proof is that the manual describes using the exact same position of the switch, "A + B/bi-wire" to simultaneously drive a secondary pair of speakers, say in the next room.
@@m.zillch3841 Thank you very much for your reply Mr. Ziich. That's also how I figured it went together. It's also a bit easier to Bi-wiring that way.
I was wrong, my amplifier is A-S500 but the connections appear to be the same.
What I find very confusing is the impedance setting. I have 1 set 8 ohm speakers which are wired from output a+b. I still don't know if it should be in high or low. In the manual p. 4 and 6:
Caution. When making Bi-wiring connection, set impedance switches to high or low depending on your speakers' impedance. 6 ohms or higher set switch on HIGH. 4 ohms or higher set switch on LOW. Is it a mistake in the manual, I don't understand. :-). Higher than 4 ohm LOW setting. Higher than 6 ohms HIGH? 8 ohms is higher than both 4 and 6 ohms, does it matter which setting I use?
Hope you can explain for me 🙂
@@sbromose1 I think it's a typo/translation error. If your speakers are 4 ohms set to low. If they are 8 ohms set to high.
@@sbromose1 Here's a quick tutorial on the impedance switch.
It is not, as many think, an "optimization selection". It is more like a " maximum power output limiter to reduce the danger of over heating, especially problematic on lower impedance speakers at high volume, used to easily pass necessary UL and CSA safety testing requirements without the costly inclusion of a cooling fan or very large (and also costly) heat sinks which make the product taller/larger". More here: th-cam.com/video/Ou5bO8P2Drw/w-d-xo.html
So what to select for maximum possible power and what to select for maximum safety are two different things.
Also to be picky speakers don't actually have a single impedance, it varies by frequency and another thing called "phase angle". Detailed reviews in Stereophile and other magazines sometimes show the more detailed plots.
Theoretically there should be differences between single wiring and bi-wiring, at least when the speaker is made for bi-amping /bi-wiring and there are different biding posts for bass and treble: In single wiring, the signal reaches the treble posts with a delay and has to pass through the connectors which usually are of different quality and geometry than your speaker cable.
Then we have the electro-magnetic interaction between the two sets of cables which, theoretically, in the case of bi-wiring should increase the noise. That is undesirable of course but on the other hand, a bit of noise makes the cable sounding more "open and lively" - i.e. in such a case the geometry acts as a tone control.
We can't prove that the human ear can grasp all those fine details, but I can remember that in my second hi-fi system, which was quite unbalanced with a quite insolent treble (Pioneer legato link cd player, Pioneer amplifier and Mission 780 SE speakers, with Kimber 4PR speaker cable) single wiring was making the sound a bit calmer, sweeter and warmer.
If you listen to the video, there is absolutely no possibility of any difference, not even theoretically speaking
@@carlosw1687 Scientific theory arises from experiments and not vice versa.
That said, you can still listen to your music with your cd player from the 80s if you wish. It still writes "Perfect sound forever" on the box.
Exactly what i suspected all along, Active BiAmping is the only thing that would make a difference. And i bet we can argue if there are more benefits than disadvantages with that too.
Oh active biamping has NO disadvantages apart from cost and complexity.
@@engjds I use Hypex plate amps. Crossover and amp all in one tidy package set into the back of the speaker.
@@garethonthetube Dont know the brand, but active is the way to go, I was thinking best route might be something like a programable miniDSP, not sure if you could fit a good quality amplifier in the back of a speaker though and not reduce the box volume to such an amount you would need high excursion (with higher distortion) at low frequencies. No, I think it is better to make everything external ideally, unless you have a large floorstander with excess box volume beyond the thiele small parameter calculations for the box size.
When it come to speakers, the impedance or resistance as the case may be is very low compared to what you have in the input; like microphone and other pick-ups.
Very informative video content, i am newbie , but this presentation is very clear to me to understand the bogus of bi wiring. Bi amping is more relavant since it uses 2 separate amplifier to drive the high and low.
Thanks. I did my best to make the video accessible to everyone, regardless of their background.
Bi-amping is a more complex topic but in a nutshell I think you would generally get more out of putting a 2ch. amp into "bridged mono mode" and using it to drive one speaker with one set of wires (leaving the speaker's jumper straps in place) rather than bi-amping, assuming your amps have that capability and can drive such a load. [Only some do.]
Bi-Wiring is a salesman's tricks
So your telling me adding an extra set of terminals to the back of my speakers WONT immerse me in a 4th dimensional holographic sound stage?!???
Effect of no-wiring… IS HALVING THE RESISTANCE OF THE SPEAKER CABLES!
Hmm just get CAT6/5e network cable & try this!! Worked for me.
I made my own power amp with active cross over. The effect of this is I had to buy matching woofers and tweeters to make my own speakers….
Yeah I had to specify the cross over point based on the woofer/ tweeter combination.
Try measuring current instead of voltage and see what happens.
As I denote in the text/graphics starting at 14:10, there is indeed a change in the current AFTER the Y-split in BOTH scenarios, but why should it matter if the equivalent Y-splits where this happens is either inside, versus outside, of a wooden cabinet? It just doesn't matter. This measuring "methodology" you mention is, however, a common ploy the bi-wire marketers use to confuse consumers: What they do is (unfairly) measure the current BEFORE the split in the top diagram and then compare/contrast that to the current measured AFTER the split in the second diagram. That is, they measure the electrical signals externally to the speaker cabinet in both of their measurements. This is an invalid comparison because it is not "apples to apples". The only valid comparisons of current are either both done pre-split, or both done post split. Here is where we see there is no difference.
The “signal” on the output of the amplifier is clearly full range, 20-20,000 Hz, as stated. Your oscilloscope picture of the two traces is calibrated in db, not current, however, it demonstrates that, obviously, the filters are doing their jobs and that the current flowing to the cones decreases the further away you are from the crossover point.
The current is drawn from the amplifier at different rates depending on the frequency as a result of the filter, that is to say the effective impedance of the circuit varies with the frequency. As the impedance rises, due to the filter, the current drawn at that frequency is reduced. It doesn’t matter that the “signal” is full range, if no current is drawn, it will not be able to drive the cone.
This is not intuitive until you consider that current is drawn by the circuit, not pushed by the amplifier. Speaker manufacturers are not charlatans, they know their claims will stand up to scientific scrutiny or they face potential legal action. There is no incentive for speaker manufacturers to make bogus claims as, to my knowledge, very few if any actually make cables. It costs more to fit two sets of binding posts than one, so again, pointless if their claims were false.
@@markcarrington8565 Q Acoustics, a speaker maker and promoter of the bi-wiring myth, is an example that do sell (over priced) speaker wires: QED Supremus Speaker Cables
$1,499.00 USD. Most don't though, true. I'll grant you that.
It is not clear to me what percentage of speaker makers are aware bi-wiring is worthless (other than the doubling of copper strands which poses a lower resistance, just as easily accomplished by dual wiring as I discuss in the video), but both myself and Stereophile reviewer Kal Rubinson in several forum discussions have related conversations with high-end speaker reps where we've been told, off the record, they knew it was worthless but provided it anyway, perhaps to be dealer friendly, i.e, to help in their endevours to push customers to BUY wire, twice as much as they need to buy! [Also keep in mind this variety of terminal cup also allows for OTHER things, like bi-amping, or perhaps using alternate tweeters, such as pairing an electrostatic tweeter to the main woofer, popular in the 1960's with the AR-1.]. If you'd like to discuss this further I would suggest doing so at the dedicated AVS thread which includes at least one EE, Don: www.avsforum.com/threads/bi-wiring-the-secret-truth-revealed.3252879/
@@m.zillch3841 I don’t see the point of pursuing this. Having read the “offending” Q Acoustics article, which is exactly in line with my comments, I give up attempting to convince those who choose believe it’s all snake oil.
I will be interested to hear your explanation of bi-amping, which even more people have claimed makes a sonic improvement than bi-wiring does. Remember, the split is between the preamp and the power amps but the filter circuits are still there inside the speakers, doing their jobs.
Next you’ll be telling me that upgrading my cables, including power, swapping out components such as opamps for component types, electrolytic caps for better ones and fitting R-C snubbers on my bridge rectifiers was pointless too.
@@markcarrington8565 "Next you’ll be telling me that upgrading my cables, including power, swapping out components such as opamps for component types, electrolytic caps for better ones and fitting R-C snubbers on my bridge rectifiers was pointless too." This is you putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that and stay on topic: bi-wiring.
I was always perplexed by the double terminal sets, to me the only use is to bi-amp using an active crossover before the amps, however none of the speakers I saw had the ability to disable the internal crossover to allow this to work, so it just left me confused.
Delightfully clear explanation
Thanks! I did my best to make this easy to understand for all people regardless of their audio electronics background.
Bi-wiring = Buy wire
Bi-wiring does have benefits. . . for the dealer selling twice as much wire as the customer needs:
selling bi-wiring = bi-profits.
Bi wiring marketing B.S -
There is big difference and that is when you have 2 or more amps and an active crossover, you can control each driver, this is done in pro audio, while this is not the same as bi-wiring it allows this option, you can even protect each driver from clipping damage separately. You don't even need a passive crossover, but can use a bi wire speaker with its internal passive crossover with an active crossover together. No point sending bass to a tweeter where the passive crossover filters it out anyway but by removing it from the amp as well means more power margin and headroom for the tweeter and mids. Clipping on the bass with no tweeter damage for example.
Great Job! There is some will say their ears hear something and that it sounds way better. 🙂
i did it both ways and Nickelback still sounds like crap !!
At last, someone who knows what his talking about, great video.
Very clear video. Thanks Thumbs up
i have system amplifier onkyo a9010 and speaker sb acoustic eka. experiment with various cable for biwire ; best result with qed cable for low and vandenhul cable for high. smooth treble, open midrange, and tight bass. i think the vandenhul somehow smoothing the treble. i can hear difference by switching cable, with only youtube source on android tv. since then, i only buy speaker with biwire
@12:00 There's a concept in ham radio whereby the signal you transmit goes to the end of the antenna and then out into the air. However, some of that signal bounces from the end of the antenna back to the transmitter. I forgot what that's called, but it's a real problem especially for high power of 100 watts or more (to a max of 1500 watts per FCC rules). So, ham radio operators are often instructed to construct baluns. You're supposed to install them as near to the base of the antenna as possible - I think. That balun acts as a shield of sorts. It's really a filter that stops most if not all of the backward signal so it doesn't go back into the transmitter and blow up your rig.
I wonder if a similar phenomenon occurs in consumer audio. Does some of the signal bounce back from the tweeter and woofer back to the amplifier? Even if that were the case, I don't see how that bounce-back signal would affect the sound. I'm just wondering if the bounce back occurs in consumer audio systems.
Thank you for the video! We need more people like you and like the guy in @Audioholics!
A common tactic of snake oil wire vendors is to invoke transmission line theory and RF principles to the *audio* frequencies and wire distances we typically use in home audio. In truth these things don't usually matter, at least at any significant level, but they rely on the fact that most people won't know this. Here's an analogy of how their scam works: "Science such as this paper published in a prestigious journal [cited and actually true] has shown that a car's mass largely determines its acceleration with a given engine. The lower the mass, the faster the car's acceleration. Our research team has devised a floor mat vacuum cleaner that pulls out 50% more dirt than the competitor's, so your car weighs less so you will have better, faster acceleration". Sneaky huh? What they claim is actually theoretically true but it's just that it has no meaningful impact. See, it's not that signal reflections in wires don't exist; its that in audio applications over the distances/frequencies we use in home settings these "reflections" don't amount to anything significant we'd need to worry about. People devising transatlantic phone line distances, on the other hand, might have to worry, but we don't.
@@m.zillch3841Ok, that answers my questions. Thank you! I've always wondered that. As for the vacuum cleaner example, it would in fact affect the car's acceleration, by .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. Too bad races don't measure to that accuracy. Jajajajajajajaja
So pleased with this video, saved me from the inconvenience of bi-wiring with common sense and electrical science - thank you!
Normal and bi-wiring are electrically the same, you are correct. However, speaker guage is effectively doubled and this accounts for audible differences, if any.
It's not exactly the same as using a dual (parallel run) of wire to a single binding post speaker though, it is inferior. For example, consider the section of the speaker which draws the most current, the woofer in the case of a 2-way speaker: bi-wiring has no increase in strand count to the woofer. [Off the top of my head. . . and I just woke up so still sleepy :) ]
@@m.zillch3841 I appreciate your work but I've had this hobby for a long time too. Think of it this way, only difference between bi-wire and double run is the jumper. Same deal. I support what you're doing.
Excellent. Thanks for all your diligence.
Thanks. Part 2 is even better and should be released within a couple of days or so.
th-cam.com/video/NJhFxuymlCI/w-d-xo.html
So, after viewing this, I’d like to ask a question.
I have a pair of Klipsch Quartets, driven by a Rogue Audio ST100 power amp. The speakers have one binding post set each whereas the amp has 2 options. 4 and 8 ohm. The speakers say 8 ohm is required. Now, it’s my understanding that bass kann dip lower in the impedance than, let’s say, a tweeter. And lower than the 8 Ohm by quite a bit. Many tube amp users ask use 4 Ohm when 8 is what the speaker requires, saying it sounds better.
Would it make sense to modify the crossover to biwire so the bass runs on 4 Ohm and the rest on 8?
Just a thought.
That is an incredibly good explanation, sir. Thank you for that
Just one question if I may
The receiver usually have 1 RCA pre-out for a channel right?
So if from the receivers single pre-out (eg front left), with Y RCA splitter we split the signal to 2 amplified channels on the external amplifier and connect 1 speaker (Klipsch rp6000f) is this a PASSIVE BI-AMP or ACTIVE?
(next week I expect my Marantz MM8077 to help my Denon X3700h so I was wondering if to bi-amp or not)
If you bi-amp with the exact same, normal, full frequency range signal going to both amps it is called "passive bi-amping". I do not recommend it and often the reason people hear a difference is because the two amps are not precisely calibrated to be sure they boost the signals by exactly the same amount. What happens is one plays a tad louder than the other and this artificially drives one half of the speaker, lets say for example the tweeter section, too hot. This may make the music seem "brighter" or "more brilliant" but it is simply because the speaker has received what is essentially an EQ'd signal. It has nothing to do with the use of two amps instead of one.
Active bi-amping is completely different but requires the use of an extra stage of electronics called an electronic crossover. This box both divides the sound going to the two amps into two frequency ranges, high and low, and allows you to precisely set the levels so they match, EVEN if the outboard amps you connect actually boost by different amounts. It requires a lot more work, this extra electronic crossover may add a little additional background hiss, and to use it all properly you really need to consider using microphones and analyzing gear to set it up properly and accurately. I have done it myself but usually it is not worth the added effort and complexity, in my view.
@@m.zillch3841 Thank you so much for your reply.
You just spare me 2 amp channels :)
I have 5.2.2 and my idea was to attach my 5-bed layers to 7 channel external amp (front bi-amp) and let the receiver run my 2-atmos speaker.
But thanks to you I will attach all my speakers to the ext amp. and will use my receiver as a pre-amp.
Thank you again.
I think most of the speakers in the market are the passive bi-wiring as you mentioned, both high and low are still going through the crossover.
I sold dozens of different speakers with double binging posts and only one had a switch on the back so that you could optionally bypass the internal crossover (and this was decades ago). It is quite rare.
I've triwired loudspeakers. Testing the input wires from souce your bound to get full signal. The xover slits it down so that tweeters aren't blown and delivery is to that area of rel frequency.
I tried wired speakers too. They sounded much better than the un-wired speakers!
Excellent. Makes everything very clear (no pun intended). I always use large gauge wire. I just subscribed. Thank You & Best Regards.
I have a dual mono power amp, that, if I understand correctly, separately manages power for the two channels. This power amp allows to connect up to 4 speakers. I wanted to try biwiring so I uesed speaker set A to feed the trebles, and set Be to feed the lows. I see your point about the sent signal being full range, but isn't there any benefit at all in separately feeding power this way? I had the impression to hear some better clarity overall, even if I admit that since it's messy for me to change wires (not a lot of free space in the room unfortunately) I couldn't test multiple times going back and forth from single to mono wiring and so I just sat with my first impressions. A slightly better transient response, definitely nothing like a night and day diffrence.
I didn't want to spend a fortune for wires so I used 2 sets I already had at home: a silver laminated set for the trebles, and copper for the lows. Can it be that the sound difference I hear is fust the product of this (weird...?) arrangement?
I also see your point about studio gear not being bi wired, but limiters, compressors and mixers are not speakers. Studio monitors with active design are usually bi-amplified internally, but this (I believe) happens by means of an active crossover and this is a different story.
I don't have any fancy super hi end stuff at home, but there is a clear sonic difference between my studio monitors (ADAM F7) and my hi fi speakers (Indiana Line TESI 561).
I my view passive bi-amping is a waste of amps, electricity, wires, and time to set up. Active bi-amping, on the other hand, can potentially have subtle advantages but it requires an active (electronic) crossover and the "benefits" are small, plus it requires proper measurement gear to be sure any differences heard aren't simply because the tweeter is accidentally being run at a slightly higher (or lower) level than the woofer, which would be a primitive but audible form of EQ [too much treble or too much bass], which listeners could quite easily mistake as "sound benefits".
@m.zillch3841 ----- I employ Bi-Amping and the differences are Huge in my Case. I have 115db Horns with a Mid Range Driver and Concentric tweeter. I have SET amps that provide 1.5 watts to each Horn. I also have Class 'D' amps that are bridged and provide 500 watts to each Bass Bin. - That is how this Horn System is designed and it sounds spectacular. The Horn amplifier receives the Full Signal from the Pre-amp to a Passive Crossover that provides the Hi Pass Filter above 270 Hz. to the Horns themselves (1.5 watts is a Huge amount of power to a Horn that measures 115db). The Bass amplifiers are provided the full signal from the Pre-Amp and have an active electronic Crossover in them that provides the Low Pass Filter to the Bass Bins below 270 Hz. --- The speaker system must be Bi-Amped because that is the way it is designed by the Manufacturer. The benefits are not subtle nor small. It is necessary for those that enjoy the sound of Low power of SET amps. --- Agree that Buy-Wiring is a complete Joke.
Yeah, I have always just assumed that bi-wiring (that is, speakers with separate high and low inputs) was only useful if combined with a bi-amp setup. Otherwise, no difference. Thanks for confirming this.
I did tri-wire my 3way towers (which got very good review from Peter Aczel, BTW) many, many years ago and with the 10ga, instead of 14ga single wire I used before, the bass and lower mids were slightly more pronounced, and tonality a bit warmer. Today when I design my own xovers, I can see in simulations that there is some difference, usually around 0.5dB or less for a 4ohm woofer, when the wire+inductor coil resistance is reduced say from 0.5ohm to 0.25ohm in lower part frequency range where the drivers impedance at the lowest. Other than that there's no magic in bi-wiring a loudspeaker when used with stable amplifier.
"I did tri-wire my 3way towers (which got very good review from Peter Aczel, BTW) many, many years ago and with the 10ga, instead of 14ga single wire I used before, the bass and lower mids were slightly more pronounced, and tonality a bit warmer." .. . . and your test was sighted, plus your transition time was not via an immediate A/B switch so you weren't relying on your echoic memory, but instead your mind's short term memory of the sound you heard minutes ago. What model was the speaker?
Yes I do know what you're talking about. We, a few of enthusiast in Ottawa (famous for NRC Anechoic Chamber) which don't believe in voodoo magic and magical audio components, did a test A/B and difference of less than 0.5dB in parts of frequency response with familiar equipment and source material are clearly audible. I can hear that my BD player has distinctive sonic signature from my CD, DVD player and DAC connected to my PC (other than the BD, all of them sound pretty much the same. That is also true when they are connected to the receivers DAC via optical connection or coax, the BD always stands out as being different. I measured the output level/freq response using CLIO and they are all the same. Even my neighbour, who isn't particularly interested in audio, says the BD player sounds different.
When I play with my crossovers I use a set of switches to change particular parts in the network so there's immediate change, say the inductor, capacitor or resistor will cause a small change frequency response, phase, etc. Most people notice the same change that I hear even though some of them are very minute, and some might say too small for ear to be noticed.
You need *two* separate amps (or two mono-blocks) to really benefit from bi-wiring your speakers. This is also why all *studio monitors* have *two* amplifiers built in (say 70W for the mid/low driver, and 30W for the tweeter). Not all higher end speakers are a bi-wire design (or tri-wire for that matter), but if they are you should deffo make use of it. Dynaudio, for example, uses single binding posts on most of their speakers (such is the design of their crossover).
When you use two amps it is no longer called "bi-wiring"; it is called "bi-amping" (and it's not the topic of this video).
Bi-amping with active crossovers used to be a thing, especially because you eliminated the passive lossy crossover parts in the speakers, and gives the flexibility of selecting crossover frequencies and slopes to what you think is best. I got my speakers biwired simply because I got two runs of same brand cables to play with. Not making any claims but one type of cable sounds slightly different from the other a bit so I utilized the difference to my advantage I think. But it is subtle and debatable and I don't invest in wire stocks.
Wires are just like amplifiers: they have an input signal and an output signal. The only distinction is amps can boost the signal level; wires don't. If either a wire or an amp modifies the sound passing through, rather than faithfully reproducing the sound accurately without audible modification, there's a term for that: poor fidelity. Me? My goal is to only use wires and amps that provide high fidelity. Luckily many, if not most, very affordable ones easily attain this goal despite lies from some marketers to the contrary.
I understand the premise of the video.
If your source give you a certain noise that mean its comming from the amplifier..and more wires = more noise. Maybe if possible see how to eliminate noise the amp produce like those noise cancelation power adapters that Ifi makes that greatly reduce incoming signal interference.
Crossover boards are like Dac..well no but i mean there is a lot of different quality.
The difference which is that analog signals really do depend a lot on Hardware quality material.
On digital variant it does not matter that much because what goes in is just a bunch of 0 and 1.
So yes the bi wiring does nake a huge difference when using higher quality q
Wires specificaly for the frequency range.
Low frequency wires will require pretty solid sheilding compared to hf signals one.
'keep the highs & the lows seperated' via seperate cables to the same amp outputs defies the laws of physics, or less generously exemplifies audiophile snake oil bullshit. good vid well done
Thanks. Thing is, nearly all consumer owners' manuals back up this baloney so how is an average consumer to know if they can't even trust the manufacturer of their gear? (without watching my video, that is)
Great video chap and well put ....thanks for the info
Thanks. Help me spread the good word by sharing a link to this with your friends.