Did Quaid-e-Azam want Pakistan to be a secular or an Islamic state? - Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed - TPE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2020
- Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed comes back The Pakistan Experience to discuss Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the creation of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, and the history of the country.
We discuss the perennial question, did Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah want Pakistan to be a secular or an Islamic ideological state?
The Pakistan Experience is a podcast looking to tell stories about Pakistan, and Pakistanis, through the lost art of conversation. - บันเทิง
This was the first-ever episode of "The Pakistan Experience" I listened to - and this happened to be the audio-podcast version. As a 75 years old Pakistani living abroad, I simply loved it and remained riveted listening to it right through to the end.
So why do I rate this discussion so high? These two words describe that best: it was honest & unbiased.
Ordinarily, we tend to exalt our leaders to a level that we start to think of them as super-human, which they are not. For whatever reasons, we have transformed and catapulted Quaid-e-Azam to a level that mentioning a shortfall in his character or actions is construed as blasphemy. Thank you, Dr. Ishtiaq, for your honesty in portraying the Quaid as a human - the way Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre have done in "The Freedom at Midnight".
And lest I forget, the young-looking host (I apologize for not knowing your name) surprised me pleasantly with his knowledge, intriguing questions and indeed a very smiling demeanour. Young man! You have a great future ahead: just don't hope and predict, remain focused creating it.
PS. Goes without saying that I'm now subscribed to your channel. ❤️
Ma Sha Allah Great to see the admiration coming from someone who saw the initial years of freedom closely. 👌💯🤝
P.s. The host name is Shehzad Ghias Sheikh, a lawyer, a Comedian and a Lums grad. 🎓
Ditto! Old and impressed by Shahzad!
any one can tell me the name of book which he is referring
@@aashirkhanjadoon1499 The book is "Jinnah: His Successes, Failures and Role in History". by Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed
as a paxtani, I hope you are **not** doing dawah abroad as otherwise in a few years you will have to find a new kafirum mulk to move to
Good informatic and intellectual discussion..... Love from India 🇮🇳
Yub
Jinnah created an Islamic country that no muslim wants to visit. Noone lining for their citizenship. No muslim wants to migrate to Pakistan
He is the first balanced intellectual in subcontinent i have come across. I like the dispassionate way he deals with history. Very competent. His courage , awe inspiring
u forgot "hats off"
@@brachisaurous HATS OFF!
Just because he fits your narrative of bashing Pakistan you guys find him balanced intellectual
Lets see if you feel the same if he shows the true mirror of India too
@@Hassan-ki4un if he is bashing Pakistan,so what's the harm. Its truth he is saying. We also criticise India when govt. Do wrong things.. its been 75 years that u guys hvnt realised your mistakes. And thats why Pakistan has never been developed
@@Hassan-ki4un I would love to hear your counter points.
One of the best discussions on your channel. It was a treat to listen to Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed.
Prof. Dr. Ishtiaq is not only a genuine scholar but also a remarkable human being. May he live long happily.
@2107Slash no history book in India talk much about jinnah ,
I'll start with pointing out the positives of this podcast:
A) Highly enlightening.
B) Based on facts and evidences, hence, scientific in nature.
C) Unbiased interpretation and its elucidation of facts.
D) Dr. Ahmed a man of very high intellectual prowess.
E) Thodi si taareef host ki bhi karni banti hai jisne itna patiently anchor kiya. And more importantly he had courage to accept the things that went wrong on Jinnah's end.
I am an Indian from Bengal and I follow pakistani politics for past couple of years very closely. Very interesting discussion. Keep up the good work borther and hats off to professor 🙏
And never forget Bengal was one of key conspirators for dividing India & mass killings of Hindus by then head Sohrawardi.
@@sanjayshrivastava8671 I agree.
Thanks for sharing your valuable thoughts and knowledge related to history.
Every Pakistani should follow and study Isthiaq Ahmed, then ALL doubts will be Cleared .
He is very objective.
I often listen from people of other countries and even in India that India was a secular state and now it is moving towards becoming Hindu Rastra. This is not the case. India was never a secular state. It is propaganda form all the political parties of India for the outside people.
Yes, India does not have any state religion but that does not imply that a country that does not have any state religion is a secular state. A truly secular state is a state which does not give any kind of religious preference to any community.
In India for Muslims there is a Muslim personal law which is based on Sharia law, Muslim can legally follow polygamy, Triple talaq (only instant Triple talaq is banned in 2017), and others Sharia law. For Non-muslim there is the Hindu Code Bill, Which is based on modern society values and does not allow any kind of religious preference.
In my opinion, India will become a truly secular state when India implements the Uniform civil code which I don't see it in the near future.
@Praful Patel That's why he was cunning.
@nwfp nwfp By 2030 PK shall become largest Muslim country (presently it is 2nd), may be then you shall start claiming that 'Islam originated in PK'.
Good luck with your fictional - history about India.
@nwfp nwfp Indian National Congress (b. 1885), RSS (b. 1925). Since when have these political parties have become fount of history? Or may be in PK you don't get to read 'history' as a standalone subject, everything is studied through the prism of religion or politics.
Your statement is contradicting ,when we said india is not secular we talking about discrimination not about muslims laws .second your point about uniform civil code is clearly against democratic values and norms ,government run state on behalf of public ,how any government impose some laws on minority on the the basis of majority .
@@AliHassan-nz1eq In 1946 elections Muslim league won 87% seats reserved for Muslims all over India. In democracy as you know with 51% is simple majority but here Muslims supported overwhelming supported the creation of Pakistan.
In 1941, Muslim population was 24.08% while Muslims got 26% land (PK + BD) from United India.
1951, Muslims in India = 9.8%
2011, Muslims in India = 14.2%.
Pakistan (1941) = non-muslim = 20%, now 2-3%.
Bangladesh (1941) = non-muslim = 28%, now 9%.
You cannot have both way. I want Pakistan, get more than your population then stay in India, increase your population & demand all Islamic rights. If you have problem in India, you are free to leave as migration is nothing new.
Remember Islam is 2nd largest religion with 58 countries & 1.9Billion population.
While Hindus have just 2 countries with 1.15B population.
So Muslims are in majority not 'minority', which you claim
Thank you so much, DOCTOR SAHIB JEE.
I like Dr.Sahib. reminds me of my old Uncle.inspires respect and affection. Though I am a punjabi Hindu.🙏 But.muslims can't have it both ways.cant have its cake and eat it too..
👍👍👍👍 another great discussion!! always feel much more aware about our history and reality!! after watching ur shows.!
So much of learning by Professor Ishtiaq Ahmed! Astonishing!!!
Great scholor. Thanks for uploading
@@ThePakistanExperience your videos and interview questions are superb!! Must watch material for those who 🧡 history. Keep it up
Excellent interview very grateful to dr sb for bring out his prospective of history.
I love Dr Ishtiyaq sb. My favourite. Such encyclopedic knowledge and such humility.
Excellent program... well conducted and truly informative. Keep it up.
Jinnah had no vision of india or Pakistan. He was not capable of vision or thought. He had no thinking about future of Pakistan. British had plans for Pakistan. To control it for tacking Russia. Used, left, discarded. Thats the story of Pakistan. They are clueless about future now. They are trying to use China. But not succeeeding
Mr Ishtiaq, where can I buy your book Jinnah from. I live in USA and Amazon says this book is currently not available.
I must admit the interest and knowledge of Mr. Shahzad Ghias and also for hosting this show.
Very informative show man, keep it up.
1 of Best dialogues that ever happened in Pakistan. Dear professor sir is as usual ocean of wisdom. Here more impressive is this young bloke . U r daamn professional dude Man@ 12👌👌
I splendidly listen Prof. Saab's words. I am from Nepal and have a great interest in Partition History and Prof. Saab is a great help in this regard.
I have learnt to read Urdu script with great labor without any teacher. This is my third Script after Devnagari and Roman .
Much respect. Good luck on your journey, and I hope you inspire other youth to follow in your footsteps.
Amazing bro. All of South Asia should be together ❤
Great
Excellent......professor is very knowledgeable and unbiased......❤️
thanks for arranging this important lecture
Hi Shezad,
I am writing midway through this podcast, writing now so that I dont forget later. It would be really nice to have a list of the book references Dr. Ishtiaq mentioned here, if feasible. I may not be able to read all the books but a few might be possible.
Btw excellent and informative session this with Dr. Ishtiaq, quite a myth buster. Many thanks for that!
More power to you!
kindly tell the book name plz
Jinnah's daughter's claim on his Bombay house in court is based on the argument that jinnah was khoja Ismaili and therefore his inheritance should be in accordance of Hindu personal law and not muslim personal law in India.
Khoja ismailis are muslims as well thus his inheritance should be in accordance with Islamic law
@@aminahshahid8878 According to indian personal law, It isn't.
@@aminahshahid8878 What she was saying that Jinnah followed Hindu laws in the property.
Lo ji ... kya pagalpan hai
@@aminahshahid8878 Bhai Ismailis are indeed Muslims but they don't abide by 7th century discriminatory laws, they abide by the law of the land wherever they live, based on that she should get her inheritance, do they deserve that is a different issue. And my suggestion to all Muslims is to abandon 7th century laws, in this age and time these laws are inhumane, and discriminatory, you being a woman should be against it.
Subscribed as discussion looked informative.
Cheers from India 🇮🇳
Such a clarity of thoughts , depth of knowledge and a straight talker
I always learn something new, every time I listen to professor sahab. And i feel good to see that you have a meaningful podcast, and you are a bell read man. Bravo
PAKISTAN will become worse than Afghanistan soon
Thanks a lot. I learnt so much about partition.
This is so informative
When the book is going to be published? Publisher name?
01:00:00
The spirit of islam by syed ameer ali
One summer day doesn't make a summer
I can’t find the first interview with Dr sahib. Can you share the link please.
Sir which book from KL Gauba are you quoting as reference ?
Very instructive and informative.
Love from Dhong ,Gujerkhan,Pakistan.
DR Sb is one of the greatest political Scientists of Subcontinent
Excellent discussion that deserves to be widely heard. It would help if you could break it down into smaller parts to facilitate easier sharing and ensure listening by the less patient.
such a pleasant , humble and knowledgeable person. 👏👏👏
I was waiting for dr saab s new interview
A great teacher a great resercher a great writer......thank you Dr Ishtiaq Sb.
I enjoy Dr. Ahmed due to his deep knowledge and his disproportionate modesty.
Very balanced discussion by prof sab
I love to listen him . He is soo honest and truthful. He tells about the Pakistan history soo well . My very favorite historian. Stay blessed 🙏🙏
Can’t get enough of this.
Are your book available in net mean audiobook
I admire Dr Ishtiyaq Ahmed Knowledge
sirji .enlightenment and Jinnah discovery ..good work !
Dr. Ishtyaq ahmed saab jaisa insaan aur koi nahi dekha maine..... Hairani hoti he ke wo kitne unbiased hain..... God bless him🎉
Hard to defend a man like jinnah... you tried well...
Please share the link for this book!
What is the name of the book?
Good analysis, proffessor ahmed is gud intellectual.
For me this interview is informative regarding knowledge of history
Shehzad is a very sharp and informed guy and I admire Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed. An excellent discussion.
Dr. Ishtiaq is always encouraging to his juniors. Wish I could have more opportunities to learn from him.
If Jinnah was secular,then why did he create Pakistan? If he was so kind to minority why did hindu Sikhs were driven out of their homes which went to Pakistan. If Jinnah was secular then who are iskamists. Who are radicals,fanatics? Which leader provokes them? Jinnah was the leader of secular Muslims or radical fundamentalists?
Or,he was simply used by the British? To again divide,India like Bengal. Where was hatred when bengal was divided? Where was a jinnah? No. Because British has a divide and rule policy.
Great program as always, but the last one with dr sb was more didactic, informative, and perhaps inclusive. But great effort. Keep it up. Pakistan needs voices like you, now more than ever.
Didactic? How so?
SIr very informative and amazing
Thank you so much Dear Doctor Sahib and Shezad for this brilliant and eyeopener chat. Cleared to some extent THE ENIGMATIC AND THE PRAGMATIC approach of THE QAUID. Thanks again.
I have read extensively about the Quaid of Pakistan. Have come across certain articles which state that he was a Thakkar gujarati. His father was born hindu and they decided to embrace Islam in their lifetime around the time the Quaid was born. This was because they were maritime traders and also traded in fish, which was not approved of by the Thakkar community. Need to know how true this is.
Its true. Thats why jinnah was hateful of hindus. He was hindu earlier..he had a grudge. He sold fish. His village was vegetarian
In the grand scheme of things, how does it matter? Your shit don't smell??
Pleasing. Nice 👍
بہت خوب
Dr Saheb, you have opened the gate-way of knowledge towards understanding creation of Pakistan and the developments since 14th August 1947. Dr. Saheb, I will be grateful if you tell me how the members of the first Assembly/ Constituent Assembly were elected or selected.
Pakistan will never by friendly to India because then they loose their victim card,and begging bowl and how will they sell India hate. They only sell India hate. We have to go for one India or break Pakistan and make sindhudesh. Noother option. If India has to live,Pakistan has to die. More it lives,more it will hamper indias growth and create roadblocks. India should end their story..look at Germany. So progressive, strong now. This is what India should copy. Increase freedom,economic prosperity, standard of living here. Pakistan will die like East Germany.
He's BACK! Been waiting ❤️
Jinnah was influenced by his law education in England and was indeed secular. There were Hindus in the constituent assembly and Jogendra Nath Mandal was his Minister of Justice
and Jagannath Azad wrote the national anthem of Pakistan.
The mixing of religion and politics began immediately with the " Objectives Resolution ".
Neither Mohammed Ali Jinnah or Kemal Ataturk can sustain secularism in Muslim dominated countries.
Hundreds of thousands of Mumtaz Qadris exist ( millions, really!!) in Muslim societies who ferverently believe that ALLAH has given them the brief of keeping a noxious political ideology of secularism should should be kept away from the Islam-sanitized lands.🙂🙂🙂
Jogendranth Mondal was a mere figurehead. There is no record of him having done anything substantive during his time as a Central Minister. He could see the Islamisation of Pakistan, came to India, completely disillusioned and died in obscurity.
Jinnah was neither secular or fundemental.
He was an opportunist.
A proper policitian who craved power and would do anything to get it.
Jinnah wasn't secular. He converted his parsy wife into Islam, and he laer cut ties with his daughter when she decided to marry a parsy. I wouldn't call such a person secular.
What happened at 25:50? The audio and video quality got worse, never to return to what it once was.
Dr Saab is a fine human
Just like to share one thing that , King of Afghanistan Amir abdur Rehman also talked about the partition of Sub continent in his book which was published in 1904 . This book was written by the king itself with the help of katib ( Official writer of government )
Thank you
Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed is unbelievably honest man. Doesn't mince his words!!! Kudos to you Sir. Amazing podcast @Shehzad GS.
🙌
This channel actually does represent the modern Pakistani generation people
Sir, We need NOBLE PERSON LIKE DR. ISHTIAQ SAHIB in Pakistan, Unfortunately We are full of Religious FANATICS, ROGUE ARMY GENERALS AND DISHONEST HISTORIANS in our SOCIETY. We need a Honest, logical and Greedless people like DR. ISHTIAQ.
IN PAKISTAN OUR SOCIETY IS DYING AND THIRSTY FOR REAL AND HONEST PEOPLE.
tera naam hi religious fanatic h
Congratulations Shehzad for excellent show. Please do a show with Doctor Mubarik Ali and Ayesha Jalal too.
Tum sab aapas mei ek dusre ko maar daalo.........Jihad kr lo aapas mei............Mar Jao....
Bomb blast kro ek dusre par........ rape kro aapas mei ek dusre ki bahen betiyo k saath........fir Jannat M chale Jao.......osama.Laden, khadim rizvi k paas.......72 hooro ki bund chodo jaake.....mauj lo....m allla allla khair salla.....
Sir mai shimla se hu or wo train ajj b chalti hai kalka-shimla. Sun k bda acha lga itne bde-2 log yaha aye hai...
Why no time stamps for this video?
Dr. Ahmed's book on Mr. Jinnah is an objective, dispassionate and a balanced study,even though one does disagree with certain conclusions that he has drawn.
Worth and recommended reading.
Very inspiring way of elaborating forgotten history of indo pak
Cannot hear anything audio quality quality is very low
Wow great learning from learneds
The shia sunni debate is similar to how both Buddhists and jains claim Ajatshatru the 2nd great Haryanka ruler of the Maghad Empire.
great informative program
also professor sb have great knowledge
🙌
Dr Sahab, what is ur response to the statement that Hinduism is inherently secular and Islam does not provide space to other religions in similar way.
The way he debunk conspiracies is awsome. Great academic.
ڈاکٹر اشتیاق کی باتیں بڑی قابل غور ہیں
I am listening "The Pakistan Experience" from last two weeks consistently and I have to say Hats off to you Shahzad Sheikh for giving us these beautiful intellectual conversations. Hats off brother👋👋👋
Dear Dr Sahab, please read my question.
Oppression of Muslims in Kashmir
Oppression of Muslims in Balochistan
Oppression of Muslims in Sindh
Oppression of Muslims in KPK
Oppression of Muslims in Punjab (west)
How should one must decide which and where to fight the oppression of Muslims?
1:09:14 just nailed it man!!
Behind that mosque 🕌 also
Always lahore is and will be famous bcz of two special monuments but will develop & shine only after deserving recognition of that “behind structure”….❤❤
Lahore is unluckiest lucky city to not identifying gem 💎 it had produced…
Undoubtedly dr. Ishtiaq ahamad is unreservedly & unparalleled best historian & knowledge provided of contemporary..
Thanks to u as well for inviting him for detailed discussions without any hassle
What is this "behind the mosque" structure?
Lov pur . Lov ki city. Now Islamic. How long. Ram kuch karega. Lov hamara tha ,hai rahega.
Nice 👍
Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed sir thank you for your wisdom.
The interviewer have lake of knowledge about India and Modi/BJP also about RSS. He just talked liked another guy from facebook keyboard warrior. When you ask question with allegations on someone you should also have to quote proof.
If modi is butcher n Does RSS is a murderer
Good effort Shehzad.
Congratulations sir
Good discussion.. But Pakistan has already killed it's minority, and now they are going after Shia. Please do not compare Pak with India..
With respect and India isn’t
Great discussion, however, as time progresses, so do ideas, Quaid's own views changed with time, therefor if he was with us today, he would have progressed from what he said 70 years ago, what matters today is that what is better for the people today.
In India Secularism is synonymous with Muslim appeasement.
No...lol
Parties appease all communities for votes
@@anshuraj4277 I am talking about secularism not about which party appease whom. The secular parties are at the fore front of bowing down to Islamists and their demands.
And bjp always appease hindus like karsewak would not be punished even after he has done a crime
May God bless country with good relations with India......
Assalam O alaikum Dr. Ishtiaq sb and Shehzad sb.
Listening to you answers so many of our questions and confusions and affirms so many of our guesses. Marhaba.
My question is about the role of USA in partition and creation of Pakistani establishment, during and post world war II and early cold war days. As the world power role shifted from the British to the US, its asserted that US was anti colonialism and encouraged early British drawdown to create new relations with ex-colonies or newly established states. US role in suez crisis can be one example, Shahs Iran another. How transfer of Power from British to US helped in making of pakistan and cold war realignments helped create the military establishment. The state model that ultimately dominated Pakistan seems to be a reflection of saudi king-clergy model when augmented by the rising role of US in middle east influenced rise of islamic state model as a counter to soviet expansion?
Your British, Congress and muslims three node model fits so well, forgive me throwing a spanner in the works by adding US role as a another determinant in creation and evolution of Pakistan.
Dr. Sb sir heard your recent interview with aftab iqbal an and you mentioned the American role in the making of Pakistan. Your rendering of this role was very well put and based on sound historical evidence. My question was answered, Thank you
Sorry Sir, he was Ahson not Ahsan, who later became Admiral Ahson, C-in-C, Pakistan Navy.
The host is quite well-read and mature .
" Afsos Ki Hum Doodh Se Bhi Jal Jaatey Hain "
We were hoping for a very open relationship between Pakistan and India. It was a divine experience to see Pakistani cricketers play in joint teams in IPL 20 :20 matches.
Pakistan and India have so much in common. With due respect to their proud national identities, both countries have the closest historical, cultural, geographic,social, religious and linguistic bonds .
Still, we treat each other with so much suspicion . We may place our trusts in very distinct people but we do not have confidence in each other.
THIS IS SAD.
We are reminded of a famous dialogue from the blockbuster Indian film " Pakeezah" when the bold and fearless Raj Kumar faces the ire of a cautious Hakim Sahib ( Sapru ) for giving shelter to Meena Kumari.
Hakim Sahib : Doodh Ka Jala Chhachh Bhi Phook Phook Kar Pita Hai
Raj Kumar : AFSOS KI LOG DOODH SE BHI JAL JATEY HAIN
We need to spread love and build trust!
Jenab @@alizawasimkhan1324 Sahib Adaab
Indeed
Allah ki gaand me lulli aur gando Nabi laudakhor tattikhor Muhammad ki badboodar ghazi haji namazi aashiq gay rasool pichwada me lulla ho Akbar 🐖🕋💩
Bahut Khub....
Jenab @@rayzimmerman6740 Sahib.Adaab Thanks
i am your huge fan... love you bro