@@jonismiff Unfortunately I think it doesnt works with Remover but does with Unstoppable since it can be cast before starting. One cool thing is that since Haze can now cast during Ult Debuff Remover can be used.
As soon as Vindictas realise this is a CORE item, Deadlock will forever change and they'll need to buff Silence item ranges to compensate, it will be a never ending balance war.
The one problem is that usually multiple people on a team buy knockdowns, especially later in the game. The recent phantom strike changes is exactly this, should stop the frequent fliers haha
Debuff remover is so underrated for countering silence seen so many people die to silences countering their kit and then saying "wait you can debuff remover silence?" Also some quick notes on your list since you seem very thorough, any ability that places a negative effect can be cleansed including attack rate and slows, like technically while it's completely useless information outside of maybe using for a speed boost to escape if you already bought remover to counter something else, Lash ult does a 5s slow after cast which can be removered, his whip does fire rate which can be removered Also some notes like Fire scarabs while giving you your health back it actually also removes the negative bullet resist as well as BRS which most mirages are building. though obviously BRS is not that hard to reapply. Basically there's plenty of extremely minor things you can remover. Oh and also the famous Reducer/remover reduces parry time which is a cool effect.
You are absolutely right here. The one problem that I thought heavily about when making this list is if it's worth using Debuff remover's active which depending on cooldown reduction is 30-48 sec. This is of course situational, and it gets even more complicated to calculate 'worth' once you start stacking effects. My brain started to hurt as I thought about all of it. Thank for your insight, Cheers!
This is a super helpful video, thank you! I'm somewhat of a new player with 40 hours into this game and its taken me too long to realize how strong these active items are.
Don’t worry I think that is normal, until I felt really comfortable with Actives I just bought passives, now I have probably 2-3 a game. The good thing about most Actives (Debuff remover included) is they also have some stat buffs or resists so it’s not all a loss if you don’t use it often. Glad it was helpful, cheers!
Vs Abrams, it is true that both rebuff remover and reducer will allow you to parry a fully charged melee after a shoulder charge stun. However, if the Abrams buys duration extender, the Abrams will again be able to fully hit a charged melee after the shoulder charge stun. Silly interaction, definitely check Abrams items before committing to a parry if it’s mid-late game :) Also wonderful video btw
Good points, someone said this in the discord when I posted. Funny to mention, I spent way too much time testing this interaction after the video and with the most recent buff to debuff removers passive. This is what I found: Base Abrams beats out reducer every time if its frame perfect and I mean literally 1 tick on the server perfect. Now with remover granting 40% resist it allows parrying against duration extender but not Superior duration. All really interesting stuff to me, thanks for the comment, Cheers!
@@arrowplunge ooh, that's very good to know then, that seems to swing the interaction much further in remover's side now (assuming you were also testing with level 2 shoulder charge?)
@@arrowplunge Ah that’s great to know, thanks for testing it! To get a frame perfect parry, you can buffer a heavy melee by holding q before the charge finishes its animation. That way, you will heavy melee as soon as possible. Good to know that you need superior duration in order to guarantee punch vs debuff reducer, thanks for testing it!
@@adamcoolcat2684 That's a frame perfect melee. I was wondering if you can get a frame perfect parry by holding F as you are getting charged on. I've always mashed it :D
duration extender actually CAN beat debuff reducer if u are litearly inside the target's hitbox and hold melee before the charge ends, since heavy melee animation is longer the further u are from an enemy, even if ur just a little farther than that a parry will always connect, but since u need to be so close, it is very inconsistent
This is a good one! I kind of already knew many these, but its good to have a list, especially for any newer players. Thanks for putting it all together!
I would argue that Toxic Bullets shouldn't be at D tier since after cleansing they need more time to re-apply. Also you often cleanse it alongside other effects such as Infernus' afterbur, catalyst and Escalating exposure
I could agree with that, although my list was mainly focused on how worthwhile it is to use a 30-48 sec active on an individual item's debuff. Late game you are gonna have 10 debuff on you at a time and purging then is gonna be at a tier above S because of stacking impact. Of course, this changes also if you are a Shiv or infernus who needs to heal meaning it would be worth cleansing Toxic bullets for a moment. Thanks for your comment!
Great video! Ive been buying it on vindicta almost exclusively for knockdown and warden but this gives me tons of ideas for new uses!! Im wondering what your thoughts are on debuff remover vs unstoppable? Remover is cheaper but only getting rid if things currently on you feels awful when the enemy team throws 3 knockdowns at you
Glad I could help show it's uses especially if you are already buying it. To answer your question: Unstoppable is something people generally buy to activate before doing something like an ult or a maneuver. Example: a lash or seven will activate unstoppable before their ult because while they are in their ult they can't activate remover. An exception now with the recent update is Haze can use Remover during Ult against a knockdown so maybe a Haze buys Remover first in Mid game before switching to Unstoppable late game. (fyi I am not a Haze main so take that with a grain of salt). It's hard to give general advice here because it will change if for instance the enemy team has an abrams or a Ivy. To the knockdown point, even Unstoppable isnt going to stop a team full of knockdowns because they will time after it expires. Thanks for the comment, hope that helps! If you have any others lmk :)
That’s a good point, I just learned that recently from ottr’s video. The passive is interesting because it applies to so much in this game, every stun, debuff, or ult that has a duration and gets applied directly to you will be reduced. Appreciate your comment, cheers!
Love the list. As an infernus main, I’m not sure debuff remover is s tier for escalating exposure because I can reapply my burn as soon as I see you again and debuff remover will be on cooldown. Youll have to run from the match up if it is in cooldown.
The reason I put it so high is although you can apply it again right after, your stack get reset back to zero. So if you are in a fight and get 10-20 stacks that is a 40-80% dmg amp that gets returned to 0. That many stacks is a death sentence so resetting could save the 1v1. I could see the argument for it not being S tier but that was my rationale. Cheers!
@@someonefromsomewhere1009 glad it was helpful, I felt the same way tbh. Now after taking the time to understand what it can be used I can look that the opponent team comp and know whether it’s even worth it. Cheers!
True, I mainly focused on the Active but if I had time I would have gone through the hundreds of passive interactions which I think is the strongest part of the item. Cheers!
9:04 - just wanna add that Debuff reducer loses out (in shoulder charge/melee combo) if he has Duration extender, and the passive on Debuff remover loses out if he has Superior Duration
@@ralphzilla the debuff reducer vs duration extender is actualy both loses and wins, since melee animation length depends on how far u are from the target if u are very close it will melee, if u are jist a little further it will parry it basiclg depends on which object u stun them on, so its inconsistent
@@mindblow4248 if youre in shoulder charge, u can start your melee already, so it comes out a few frames sooner, so on a standard shoulder charge, it shouldnt matter. If somehow you get put a few feet away, or u end up moving upwards or downwards, sure, but 90% of the time youre fine to buffer the imput without risk of being parried
Good call out, I should have skipped abrams since this is mainly about the Active. After the most recent patch I decided to look further into this and spent way too much time testing. Thanks for the comment :). I need to test a bit more but here is the comment I put on reddit: Plain Abrams beats out reducer if its frame perfect and I mean literally 1 tick on the server perfect (holding melee throughout charge + not having to move at all to punch). Now with remover granting 40% resist it allows parrying against duration extender but not Superior duration. Duration extender vs the 40% resist of remover makes it so you can parry every time even with a perfect punch. Superior vs remover is a guarantee heavy melee unless you mess up the charge and are too far. Here are the numbers, let me know if I did anything wrong here. My guess is the time an abrams can queue a punch is somewhere between the first two. without extender vs Debuff reducer's 30% resist: .85 sec stun x .7 (30% resist) = .595 sec stun duration extender vs Remover: .97 sec stun x .6 (40% resist) = .582 sec stun Superior vs Remover: 1.08 sec stun x .6 (40% resist) = .648 sec stun footage: discord.com/channels/1231286446472691825/1303150381282623490/1304562878329782435
Something I noticed right away is that the Wiki did not include Bebop's hook as removable by Debuff Remover. I added it to the Wiki & just wanted to let you know that it's possible as well! Debuff Remover is GOATED :D
Am I missing the timing on this? I don't think it can stop you from getting hooked, although it does cleanse the bullet damage buff given after. Appreciate the comment :)
im pretty sure debuff remover doesnt actually remove debuffs it just sets their duration to something that would count as "expired" so thats why mirage marks are popped instead of "removed" wouldnt be suprised if mirage 3-s active portion was just debuff remover code rewritten lol
@gilbertallen9868 no because afaik bebops bomb doesnt work off of duration like mirage's mark does. Its just a debuff that does damage with a delay. Mark works off of duration and can be extended by shooting, and does its damage when the debuff expires or when mirage presses 3, which (if im correct) just sets the duration to 0 and therefore procs the damage, which ends up being the case as well with debuff remover so in short mirage mark does damage on duration end, while bebop bomb is a debuff that does damage with a delay. If you skip the timer forward on bomb its never going to hit that trigger point where it does damage rather it just jumps to the next step in its function which is to remove the bomb model, effect and sound from the world at least thats my theory hope its understandable enough lol
Ya know I need to think more about this but it does seem plausible that the underlying coding would do that. Maybe that is why it can stop the upward throw from abilities like Bebop uppercut, dyno pulse, lash slam. That's interesting, thanks for commenting.
You are 100% correct. I would argue the passive is stronger than the active. This video is mainly focused on the Active portion though. It would be 30 minutes long if I included all of the passive interactions haha. Cheers!
I didn't end up including the footage for paradox but when I tested I felt it didn't actually allow you to avoid the ult unless you were pretty far and knew it was coming. I could be wrong here but just what I felt. Cheers!
@arrowplunge in my experience it is pretty consistent because they'll want to ult you from far away, but I do usually play vindicta and you're a real sitting duck for the ult while in the air. You're right that it is situational though
@@aust117 That's what matters, if it works in game for you then it's end of story. I should try it out, especially as a talon main. Appreciate you taking the time to share that.
It's a hard item to balance because it could quickly be too strong. Maybe an immunity to having more debuffs from items applied to you or the ability to see through veils.
item is still underpowered. They even buffed it as i predicted, but only it's stats. It really is weak of an effect to purge once every 48 sec. There should be something like debuff immunity for 2-4sec after use
It's pretty good but is a boring pick. I think it would be annoying if it was much stronger, imagine a 20 sec cooldown that would make many hero abilities feel useless. It does scale with Cooldown reduction so it can get to ~30 sec. Ya know 40% resist is crazy but it works in the background so it's easy to not attribute surviving to it. Also 20% weapon damage is punching above it's tier since most 6300 soul Vitality items give the same amount of Weapon damage. I'm not a game developer so we'll see what Yoshi and team decide on. I like the idea of adding more positive effects to a successful cleanse. Thanks for the comment!
I already know that Knockdown can be removed with Debuff Remover, but I've yet to see a Vindicta or Grey Talon build it over the many many games I just spam that shit on them every time I see them take flight.
Valid point, we'll see how the meta changes. I often find that unless I am ahead or super fed spending that much for a vitality active when I could get more spirit items is a hard sell. Also, many teams buy multiple knockdowns. Keep using it until it doesn't haha
@arrowplunge I think of it the opposite. When I'm ahead, I'm usually thinking about the few options the enemy team has to turn the game around. I've seen many games where a Grey Talon or Vindicta are massively ahead in souls coming out of laning phase, but when mid-game hits and my team builds 1-2 knockdowns they become completely useless by the end of the game. EDIT: I will preface and say this is team dependent. I've also had games where a Vindicta is massively ahead and I buy knockdown, except I never get to use it in a favorable fight because my team keeps walking into her instead of playing for a safer engagement. It's the same issue I have with curse where I get it for the Haze ult except that doesn't matter if I'm trying to shove waves off our shrines while the team dies to the haze ult somewhere else on the map.
@@SadFace201 I see what you mean. It depends on the build also right. With my Spirit Talon build every expensive early purchase will just delay me from getting boundless so it would have to be super worth it (many knockdowns or certain team comps in game). Compare that with an Abrams who is strong usually right out of lane and already usually build reducer. Appreciate your perspective
Wraith has Siphon here so talon's bullets are just hitting the stolen health that Siphon is taking. Talon is only shooting because i am using the mimic feature. Little bit confusing I know but I didn't want to drag someone else into sandbox to record everything haha
agreed, I think counters in the meta will adapt with time and boring picks like Debuff Remover will become more popular as people figure out it's interactions. If Remover becomes too buffed though it might make the game not fun.
Theoreticly debuff remover is op.but practicly it holds down your own power Spike pretty significant and hard to time it in real Games. It would be super nice if you could cast it also on teammates
I think it's a mid-late game item that you buy after you get your build semi-set. Buying reducer early makes remover more palatable once you get more souls, 4250 just feels so close to a Tier 4 item but 3000 seems far to me haha. I think this item will have a higher pickrate once all of its interaction become known after the game has been out for a while, especially if they keep buffing it. The teammate one would mean the support builders would buy it along with rescue beam, and carry the game. Would be fun though
This is a fantastic guide but you never mentioned how to activate the item? Every time I buy an active I can't seem to remember them until after I'm already dead. Valve please fix my lack of object permanence.
Same, because I don't come from a Moba background having more than 2 Active items feels like mental work haha. It's all practice I guess, maybe hop into a bot game with 4 actives and see if you can track their activations and cooldowns.
The two sites I referenced are tracklock.gg and deadlocktracker.gg but like another commenter mentioned their data quality might be behind or inaccurate since I don't think they are using an official Api that theoretically would give them access to the full picture when it comes to pickrate. I use the second for elo stats. Cheers!
Wow, just tested this. I didn't know that! Thanks for mentioning this, really interesting that there is a window before it activates the stun. In-game I think I would only be able to react to it in time if she slept me in the middle of a fight, not if she ganks from invis. Cheers!
Bro did not feel like talking about Paradox or even acknowledging Ivy and Calvin. With Paradox you can remove pulsebomb's damage amp, wall's slowing effects (and level 3 silence) and kinetic carbine's time stop so i'd probably put her around B tier. With Ivy you can only really cleanse some of the ult stuff, namely the level 3 silence and the slow, but not the decreased bullet resist. AAAND if you use debuff remover too early you'll get knocked up and debuffed again. So Ivy might be D or bottom of C tier (Because Ivy with Duration increase makes that slow and silence last about 6 seconds) With Calvin you can remove the slows from his grenade, beam and dome, but he'll just reapply beam and dome back again. So he's probably bottom of C tier as well.
I'll be honest, this video was taking forever so i just decided not to include some of the lower impact ones. I don't think i would ever buy remover for Kelvin over Enduring Speed. Paradox is interesting but in game I don't usually get many stack against me from pulse and her silence is pretty short, although now that it doesn't have multiple charges it might be worth cleansing situationally after you get ulted. For Ivy, I would just take advantage of the passive rather than purging most times since it would also help against stone form. Good catches, thanks for the comment :)
I like you can fully counter bebop with a single item. Dont say just go gun build most other heroes does it better. I am ascendant 6 and its real hard for bebop on higher ranks. Lower ranks againts noobs and new players he is a beast.
Nope, because unlike regular silence which only stops hero abilities, curse stops you from activating your Active items as well. From a balance perspective this makes sense because it's an expensive item. That being said the passive does lower the duration by 40% which is significant so even if the Active portion doesn't work the passive has your back.
I don't think it's intended. Wraiths ult seems to have some unique mechanics coded in like it holding you there which probably makes it exempt. I couldn't find a timing that canceled it. At least the passive will lower it's duration.
Hold tab, aim at a bot, and click a command like Mimic or Puppet. Also if you are in mimic and buy an item or upgrade an ability it replicates to the bot. Hope that helps!
Technically you can purge successfully while standing on the puddle but it's not worth it because of three reasons: - Doesn't have a high percentage of effectiveness (35%) -Doesn't have a long duration (it's 0 sec actually) -Its a movement slow which I would just say to buy Enduring Speed for most the slow in the game and save the souls (like for Kelvin, mirage, paradox, etc) Hope that helps, Cheers!
Yup I didn't include because it doesn't work. I wish :P. It cleanses the visual entity but not the grab. You can purge the slow that comes after you land but not sure how much that will save your life lol
Your data is also 2 months out of date, it even states august 30th patch. This is due to valve shutting down the data harvesting from deadlock's matches.
You meant the pick rate data? That's true, it's the best we got though outside of anecdotal experience. I would guess it's still low comparatively to other items, since it requires lots of game knowledge to use effectively. Hopefully we will get updated data soon.
@@arrowplunge Probably true, but I also just never upgrade to debuff remover because debuff reducer + improved spirit armor generally does most of the things you need to all the time, but it is super useful when you meet 2-3 of the characters that its important against.
Correct, the separation is that when someone says stun it generally includes a debuff that prevents ability activation during it's duration like a mini Curse. In this game we have things like Silence, Disarm, and curse which are all forms of debuffs. If something has a negative effect on you and has a duration then the passive probably applies to it: like Ivy Stone, wraith ult, etc even when the Active cannot be used. Thanks for the comment!
Your list is missing Curse. While you cannot cleanse a Curse (prevents items), the -40% duration still applies, effectively countering it. This means e.g. Bebop cannot counter DR with Curse because Curse duration will be reduced from 3.25 to 1.95 seconds and bombs take 3s to explode. So you can still cleanse double bomb before or after Curse anyway. Debuff remover is just that good vs Bebop that you can just never attach a bomb again. Only thing Bebop can do is self bomb + leap/warp/phantom or self bomb into hook.
You make some good points. My lists and video overall was for active portion of the item (Abram’s being the only exception). I would have had to include everything that has a negative effect with a duration if I included the passive such as curse, ivy stone, wraith ult etc. That being said with the most recent update making it 40% I do think the passive is stronger than the active because of how much it applies to. Bebop’s could delay applying curse to prevent remover but you’re right it would make the timing tighter. Thanks for the comment, Cheers!
@@arrowplunge Technically you can delay Curse, but depending on the enemy's reaction time, he can still cleanse the bombs right away before you apply Curse. Basically assuming enemy is just spamming DR as soon as he gets attached, he WILL remove the bombs either before or after the Curse. This is besides the main topic, but all I wanted to say is that Curse is a bad item purchase for Bebop because DR also counters Curse even if on surface it seems that preventing item usage is the perfect counter to DR. Unlike Silence Glyph which is a good Bebop purchase because it still counters ability immunities and costs just 3k and can be sold once enemies buy DR's in mass for e.g. Warp Stone or Phantom strike.
@@madkirby823 That's true I rarely see bebop/curse, if a bebop is gonna spend that much on an item it should be more impactful than a curse that is 60% long.
Its status resist from Dota which is an absolutely busted stat, don’t let ppl know. I’m buying this or at least debuff reducer most games and went up a full badge last week
@@pknova88 true and it’s currently the only way to get it. 40% is also really high, I mean that’s almost half everything’s duration. For krill and wraith ults that’s life or death.
Ya, most ults are immune to the active but are impacted by the passive. A few exceptions that come to mind are pockets ult can be cleansed and Dyno's ult isn't impacted by Debuff resist I believe.
😂 Ya that's why Rapid Recharge is so common. Don't worry I just learned today after many hundreds of games what can prevent you from getting shot off zip. lol Apparently I am late to the party on that one haha
True haha. I could have included her but I don't think her ult is that strong with the active of remover. The passive applies to her stun and ult though.
You are right, I think bomb Bebop is one of Debuff Remover best uses but it doesn't mean it full counters the hero. They could also just buy curse or something to stop the cleanse. Good call out.
All ya'll are so kind! Thank you for your comments. If you have any topic or item you would like a video or short on in the future lmk! Cheers guys
You can (or at least could a few patches ago I’m not sure if it got removed) remove the Debuff on Mcginus’s ult to run around af normal speed with it.
@@jonismiff Unfortunately I think it doesnt works with Remover but does with Unstoppable since it can be cast before starting. One cool thing is that since Haze can now cast during Ult Debuff Remover can be used.
@@arrowplunge ohhhhh! I think I must have mistaken the two. 😅
Thorough without being boring. Great guide here, thanks for your work
ty ty 🙏🙏
As soon as Vindictas realise this is a CORE item, Deadlock will forever change and they'll need to buff Silence item ranges to compensate, it will be a never ending balance war.
its not a core item lol and spirit vindicta damage comes from spirit+ on bullets in the air, not from crows.
The one problem is that usually multiple people on a team buy knockdowns, especially later in the game. The recent phantom strike changes is exactly this, should stop the frequent fliers haha
Keep these niche videos coming? Really appreciate the time you took to give us all this information man!
Appreciate that, I'll start looking for my next topic :)
Debuff remover is so underrated for countering silence seen so many people die to silences countering their kit and then saying "wait you can debuff remover silence?"
Also some quick notes on your list since you seem very thorough, any ability that places a negative effect can be cleansed including attack rate and slows, like technically while it's completely useless information outside of maybe using for a speed boost to escape if you already bought remover to counter something else,
Lash ult does a 5s slow after cast which can be removered, his whip does fire rate which can be removered
Also some notes like Fire scarabs while giving you your health back it actually also removes the negative bullet resist as well as BRS which most mirages are building. though obviously BRS is not that hard to reapply.
Basically there's plenty of extremely minor things you can remover.
Oh and also the famous Reducer/remover reduces parry time which is a cool effect.
You are absolutely right here. The one problem that I thought heavily about when making this list is if it's worth using Debuff remover's active which depending on cooldown reduction is 30-48 sec. This is of course situational, and it gets even more complicated to calculate 'worth' once you start stacking effects. My brain started to hurt as I thought about all of it. Thank for your insight, Cheers!
I mean, it depends. It's useless against silencer which is a pretty common item for Haze
A patch the other day made debuff removers debuff resist 40% up from 35. Great vid
This is a super helpful video, thank you! I'm somewhat of a new player with 40 hours into this game and its taken me too long to realize how strong these active items are.
Don’t worry I think that is normal, until I felt really comfortable with Actives I just bought passives, now I have probably 2-3 a game. The good thing about most Actives (Debuff remover included) is they also have some stat buffs or resists so it’s not all a loss if you don’t use it often. Glad it was helpful, cheers!
Very informative and well done video, thanks for taking the time to make this one!
np! I learned a ton making it, glad you liked it :)
I always have massive issues with many abilities in this video so it’s great to know this one item can help me deal with a lot of them
Glad it was helpful! It can be a bit pricey depending on your build but it works great against the S/A tiers I mentioned. Cheers!
Vs Abrams, it is true that both rebuff remover and reducer will allow you to parry a fully charged melee after a shoulder charge stun.
However, if the Abrams buys duration extender, the Abrams will again be able to fully hit a charged melee after the shoulder charge stun.
Silly interaction, definitely check Abrams items before committing to a parry if it’s mid-late game :)
Also wonderful video btw
Good points, someone said this in the discord when I posted. Funny to mention, I spent way too much time testing this interaction after the video and with the most recent buff to debuff removers passive. This is what I found: Base Abrams beats out reducer every time if its frame perfect and I mean literally 1 tick on the server perfect. Now with remover granting 40% resist it allows parrying against duration extender but not Superior duration. All really interesting stuff to me, thanks for the comment, Cheers!
@@arrowplunge ooh, that's very good to know then, that seems to swing the interaction much further in remover's side now (assuming you were also testing with level 2 shoulder charge?)
@@arrowplunge Ah that’s great to know, thanks for testing it!
To get a frame perfect parry, you can buffer a heavy melee by holding q before the charge finishes its animation. That way, you will heavy melee as soon as possible.
Good to know that you need superior duration in order to guarantee punch vs debuff reducer, thanks for testing it!
@@adamcoolcat2684 That's a frame perfect melee. I was wondering if you can get a frame perfect parry by holding F as you are getting charged on. I've always mashed it :D
duration extender actually CAN beat debuff reducer if u are litearly inside the target's hitbox and hold melee before the charge ends, since heavy melee animation is longer the further u are from an enemy, even if ur just a little farther than that a parry will always connect, but since u need to be so close, it is very inconsistent
love your editing, hope you make more technical and breakdown videos like this
This was such an awesome video! :)) I appreciate learning new things about items I didn't know much about.
Glad it was helpful! That's all I was going for :)
This is sweet work man. Thank you.
Great guide, looking forward to seeing your future videos
I gotta decide what I should cover next, ya'll are so nice! Cheers!
This is a good one! I kind of already knew many these, but its good to have a list, especially for any newer players. Thanks for putting it all together!
figured if someone wanted a full list it would be helpful to have all the footage. This way they don’t need to sit in sandbox like me haha, Cheers!
good video, happy this is popping off for you!
I didn't expect it to pop this hard haha. I'm just glad it's helping people out. Appreciate you
goat vid, easy to listen to, good visuals, subbed
Excellent video! Would love to see more like this!
Thanks! I gotta think of what I should do next, appreciate you!
you have the voice that could read me true crime or horror stories for hours on end 😂
😆😂 Didn't expect that. Thanks haha
Fascinating. I like the item tier list. VERY useful.
Thanks! Appreciate it :)
Good video 👍🏼 i hope to see more like this from you in the future!
Thanks! With how nice everyone is being, I have to figure out what I should make next :)
I would argue that Toxic Bullets shouldn't be at D tier since after cleansing they need more time to re-apply. Also you often cleanse it alongside other effects such as Infernus' afterbur, catalyst and Escalating exposure
Some heroes can reapply it with 4-6 bullets because they have 25% per bullet
@@Duck1en Still better than 1 bullet that most other items are applied with
This is a good point. In team fights you might have a bunch of these effects applied
I could agree with that, although my list was mainly focused on how worthwhile it is to use a 30-48 sec active on an individual item's debuff. Late game you are gonna have 10 debuff on you at a time and purging then is gonna be at a tier above S because of stacking impact. Of course, this changes also if you are a Shiv or infernus who needs to heal meaning it would be worth cleansing Toxic bullets for a moment. Thanks for your comment!
Great work man! Subbed and updated! You rock
You're so kind! Cheers
Great video! Ive been buying it on vindicta almost exclusively for knockdown and warden but this gives me tons of ideas for new uses!!
Im wondering what your thoughts are on debuff remover vs unstoppable? Remover is cheaper but only getting rid if things currently on you feels awful when the enemy team throws 3 knockdowns at you
Glad I could help show it's uses especially if you are already buying it. To answer your question: Unstoppable is something people generally buy to activate before doing something like an ult or a maneuver. Example: a lash or seven will activate unstoppable before their ult because while they are in their ult they can't activate remover. An exception now with the recent update is Haze can use Remover during Ult against a knockdown so maybe a Haze buys Remover first in Mid game before switching to Unstoppable late game. (fyi I am not a Haze main so take that with a grain of salt). It's hard to give general advice here because it will change if for instance the enemy team has an abrams or a Ivy. To the knockdown point, even Unstoppable isnt going to stop a team full of knockdowns because they will time after it expires. Thanks for the comment, hope that helps! If you have any others lmk :)
very detailed
You may know it, but I didnt noticed in a video or u didnt add it. However, Debuff Remover could make shorter a stun duration after being parried
Btw, good video, it was really helpful, thank you😊
That’s a good point, I just learned that recently from ottr’s video. The passive is interesting because it applies to so much in this game, every stun, debuff, or ult that has a duration and gets applied directly to you will be reduced. Appreciate your comment, cheers!
Thank you for the video, montage and voice goes very well !!
Thanks so much :)
Love the list. As an infernus main, I’m not sure debuff remover is s tier for escalating exposure because I can reapply my burn as soon as I see you again and debuff remover will be on cooldown. Youll have to run from the match up if it is in cooldown.
The reason I put it so high is although you can apply it again right after, your stack get reset back to zero. So if you are in a fight and get 10-20 stacks that is a 40-80% dmg amp that gets returned to 0. That many stacks is a death sentence so resetting could save the 1v1. I could see the argument for it not being S tier but that was my rationale. Cheers!
Deserve more subs.Great content.
Godsend video, I remember tryong to get debuff remover to work but it felt like it had no effect. Probably will pick it up again after this
@@someonefromsomewhere1009 glad it was helpful, I felt the same way tbh. Now after taking the time to understand what it can be used I can look that the opponent team comp and know whether it’s even worth it. Cheers!
Debuff reducer/remover also reduces duration of Wraith and Mo&Krill's ult.
True, I mainly focused on the Active but if I had time I would have gone through the hundreds of passive interactions which I think is the strongest part of the item. Cheers!
9:04 - just wanna add that Debuff reducer loses out (in shoulder charge/melee combo) if he has Duration extender, and the passive on Debuff remover loses out if he has Superior Duration
@@ralphzilla the debuff reducer vs duration extender is actualy both loses and wins, since melee animation length depends on how far u are from the target
if u are very close it will melee, if u are jist a little further it will parry
it basiclg depends on which object u stun them on, so its inconsistent
@@mindblow4248 if youre in shoulder charge, u can start your melee already, so it comes out a few frames sooner, so on a standard shoulder charge, it shouldnt matter. If somehow you get put a few feet away, or u end up moving upwards or downwards, sure, but 90% of the time youre fine to buffer the imput without risk of being parried
Good call out, I should have skipped abrams since this is mainly about the Active. After the most recent patch I decided to look further into this and spent way too much time testing. Thanks for the comment :).
I need to test a bit more but here is the comment I put on reddit:
Plain Abrams beats out reducer if its frame perfect and I mean literally 1 tick on the server perfect (holding melee throughout charge + not having to move at all to punch). Now with remover granting 40% resist it allows parrying against duration extender but not Superior duration. Duration extender vs the 40% resist of remover makes it so you can parry every time even with a perfect punch. Superior vs remover is a guarantee heavy melee unless you mess up the charge and are too far.
Here are the numbers, let me know if I did anything wrong here. My guess is the time an abrams can queue a punch is somewhere between the first two.
without extender vs Debuff reducer's 30% resist: .85 sec stun x .7 (30% resist) = .595 sec stun
duration extender vs Remover: .97 sec stun x .6 (40% resist) = .582 sec stun
Superior vs Remover: 1.08 sec stun x .6 (40% resist) = .648 sec stun
footage: discord.com/channels/1231286446472691825/1303150381282623490/1304562878329782435
Something I noticed right away is that the Wiki did not include Bebop's hook as removable by Debuff Remover. I added it to the Wiki & just wanted to let you know that it's possible as well! Debuff Remover is GOATED :D
Am I missing the timing on this? I don't think it can stop you from getting hooked, although it does cleanse the bullet damage buff given after. Appreciate the comment :)
sandbox sally or my unemployed friend on a weekday
You understood the assignment :)
well put video man! keep up great work ^^
Thanks for taking the time to comment that, Cheers!
I think that debuff remover not cleaning Mirage's marks is a bug and is not the intended behavior
We'll see if they patch it. If it does end up removing the damage I think Mirage mains would be mad lol
Great video broski
Appreciate it!
im pretty sure debuff remover doesnt actually remove debuffs it just sets their duration to something that would count as "expired" so thats why mirage marks are popped instead of "removed"
wouldnt be suprised if mirage 3-s active portion was just debuff remover code rewritten lol
Wouldn't bebop's bomb explode if that was the case?
@gilbertallen9868 no because afaik bebops bomb doesnt work off of duration like mirage's mark does. Its just a debuff that does damage with a delay.
Mark works off of duration and can be extended by shooting, and does its damage when the debuff expires or when mirage presses 3, which (if im correct) just sets the duration to 0 and therefore procs the damage, which ends up being the case as well with debuff remover
so in short mirage mark does damage on duration end, while bebop bomb is a debuff that does damage with a delay. If you skip the timer forward on bomb its never going to hit that trigger point where it does damage rather it just jumps to the next step in its function which is to remove the bomb model, effect and sound from the world
at least thats my theory hope its understandable enough lol
Ya know I need to think more about this but it does seem plausible that the underlying coding would do that. Maybe that is why it can stop the upward throw from abilities like Bebop uppercut, dyno pulse, lash slam. That's interesting, thanks for commenting.
great video, keep up the good work
Appreciate it!
Debuff Remover is really good versus Curse and Silence Glyph. Curse goes from 3.25s by default to 1.95s.
You are 100% correct. I would argue the passive is stronger than the active. This video is mainly focused on the Active portion though. It would be 30 minutes long if I included all of the passive interactions haha. Cheers!
Another good use is on Paradox's carbine. It stops the time slow effect and can often make the paradox whiff their ult, def not a D tier effect
I didn't end up including the footage for paradox but when I tested I felt it didn't actually allow you to avoid the ult unless you were pretty far and knew it was coming. I could be wrong here but just what I felt. Cheers!
@arrowplunge in my experience it is pretty consistent because they'll want to ult you from far away, but I do usually play vindicta and you're a real sitting duck for the ult while in the air. You're right that it is situational though
@@aust117 That's what matters, if it works in game for you then it's end of story. I should try it out, especially as a talon main. Appreciate you taking the time to share that.
@@arrowplunge Hope it helps you as well brother!
Warp Stone may counter it better
I think this item should have 1-2 second immunity to debuff application to make it more pickable
It's a hard item to balance because it could quickly be too strong. Maybe an immunity to having more debuffs from items applied to you or the ability to see through veils.
item is still underpowered. They even buffed it as i predicted, but only it's stats. It really is weak of an effect to purge once every 48 sec. There should be something like debuff immunity for 2-4sec after use
The pick rate will instantly skyrocket from that alone
It's pretty good but is a boring pick. I think it would be annoying if it was much stronger, imagine a 20 sec cooldown that would make many hero abilities feel useless. It does scale with Cooldown reduction so it can get to ~30 sec. Ya know 40% resist is crazy but it works in the background so it's easy to not attribute surviving to it. Also 20% weapon damage is punching above it's tier since most 6300 soul Vitality items give the same amount of Weapon damage. I'm not a game developer so we'll see what Yoshi and team decide on. I like the idea of adding more positive effects to a successful cleanse. Thanks for the comment!
I already know that Knockdown can be removed with Debuff Remover, but I've yet to see a Vindicta or Grey Talon build it over the many many games I just spam that shit on them every time I see them take flight.
Valid point, we'll see how the meta changes. I often find that unless I am ahead or super fed spending that much for a vitality active when I could get more spirit items is a hard sell. Also, many teams buy multiple knockdowns. Keep using it until it doesn't haha
@arrowplunge I think of it the opposite. When I'm ahead, I'm usually thinking about the few options the enemy team has to turn the game around. I've seen many games where a Grey Talon or Vindicta are massively ahead in souls coming out of laning phase, but when mid-game hits and my team builds 1-2 knockdowns they become completely useless by the end of the game.
EDIT: I will preface and say this is team dependent. I've also had games where a Vindicta is massively ahead and I buy knockdown, except I never get to use it in a favorable fight because my team keeps walking into her instead of playing for a safer engagement. It's the same issue I have with curse where I get it for the Haze ult except that doesn't matter if I'm trying to shove waves off our shrines while the team dies to the haze ult somewhere else on the map.
@@SadFace201 I see what you mean. It depends on the build also right. With my Spirit Talon build every expensive early purchase will just delay me from getting boundless so it would have to be super worth it (many knockdowns or certain team comps in game). Compare that with an Abrams who is strong usually right out of lane and already usually build reducer. Appreciate your perspective
This sandbox sally makes the game what it is!
15:30 How in the world are you shooting without Siphon Bullets and LOOSING HP? What happened there?
Wraith has Siphon here so talon's bullets are just hitting the stolen health that Siphon is taking. Talon is only shooting because i am using the mimic feature. Little bit confusing I know but I didn't want to drag someone else into sandbox to record everything haha
It's hugely slept on. I get it almost every match, im kinda scared to see it getting traction though lol
agreed, I think counters in the meta will adapt with time and boring picks like Debuff Remover will become more popular as people figure out it's interactions. If Remover becomes too buffed though it might make the game not fun.
Theoreticly debuff remover is op.but practicly it holds down your own power Spike pretty significant and hard to time it in real Games. It would be super nice if you could cast it also on teammates
I think it's a mid-late game item that you buy after you get your build semi-set. Buying reducer early makes remover more palatable once you get more souls, 4250 just feels so close to a Tier 4 item but 3000 seems far to me haha. I think this item will have a higher pickrate once all of its interaction become known after the game has been out for a while, especially if they keep buffing it. The teammate one would mean the support builders would buy it along with rescue beam, and carry the game. Would be fun though
w talon player, stay strong oomfie
Spirit Talon ftw 👊
Did not know what Geist’s ult could trigger mystic reverb. 😮
Great content. Add some music and your videos will get much more enjoyable to watch
I was going back and forth, I need to figure out where I can get decent backround music without copyright. Thanks for the suggestion, Cheers!
sandbox sally 😂 nah for real i learned a lot, im still very new to the game, thank you
That's me :) Glad i could be a help! It can be alot to learn fast when there are so many heroes. np, cheers!
My unemployed friend on a weekday. Great video.
😄you're the best
This is a fantastic guide but you never mentioned how to activate the item? Every time I buy an active I can't seem to remember them until after I'm already dead. Valve please fix my lack of object permanence.
Same, because I don't come from a Moba background having more than 2 Active items feels like mental work haha. It's all practice I guess, maybe hop into a bot game with 4 actives and see if you can track their activations and cooldowns.
great video keep it coming g
Ty ty 🙏
Loved the vid plz more
underrated
hey bro nic vid, which site is that at 0:50
The two sites I referenced are tracklock.gg and deadlocktracker.gg but like another commenter mentioned their data quality might be behind or inaccurate since I don't think they are using an official Api that theoretically would give them access to the full picture when it comes to pickrate. I use the second for elo stats. Cheers!
haze sleep is able to be cleansed with remover as there is a .2s window between the damage and the sleep debuff where it cant be cleansed
Wow, just tested this. I didn't know that! Thanks for mentioning this, really interesting that there is a window before it activates the stun. In-game I think I would only be able to react to it in time if she slept me in the middle of a fight, not if she ganks from invis. Cheers!
6:26 vindicta stake does not have silence. rank 3 is a disarm.
Good catch. Not sure why i said silence meant disarm.
Thank you for the video good work
I learned a lot :D
Great vid
Bro did not feel like talking about Paradox or even acknowledging Ivy and Calvin.
With Paradox you can remove pulsebomb's damage amp, wall's slowing effects (and level 3 silence) and kinetic carbine's time stop so i'd probably put her around B tier.
With Ivy you can only really cleanse some of the ult stuff, namely the level 3 silence and the slow, but not the decreased bullet resist. AAAND if you use debuff remover too early you'll get knocked up and debuffed again. So Ivy might be D or bottom of C tier (Because Ivy with Duration increase makes that slow and silence last about 6 seconds)
With Calvin you can remove the slows from his grenade, beam and dome, but he'll just reapply beam and dome back again. So he's probably bottom of C tier as well.
I'll be honest, this video was taking forever so i just decided not to include some of the lower impact ones. I don't think i would ever buy remover for Kelvin over Enduring Speed. Paradox is interesting but in game I don't usually get many stack against me from pulse and her silence is pretty short, although now that it doesn't have multiple charges it might be worth cleansing situationally after you get ulted. For Ivy, I would just take advantage of the passive rather than purging most times since it would also help against stone form. Good catches, thanks for the comment :)
good video my unuemp[loyed friend on a weekday sandbox alley
I like you can fully counter bebop with a single item. Dont say just go gun build most other heroes does it better. I am ascendant 6 and its real hard for bebop on higher ranks. Lower ranks againts noobs and new players he is a beast.
11:31 I think you ment super gliding here since super jumping is pretty easy using mouse wheel
Sweet! Subed
this gave my brain more wrinkles
Does it counter curse?
Nah curse denies item usage
Nope, because unlike regular silence which only stops hero abilities, curse stops you from activating your Active items as well. From a balance perspective this makes sense because it's an expensive item. That being said the passive does lower the duration by 40% which is significant so even if the Active portion doesn't work the passive has your back.
Good shit, ty
Hope you will do good on YT
appreciate it 🙏
I find it weird that u can cleanse some knockups but not all. Would there be a frame that allows to cleanse wraith ult ?
I don't think it's intended. Wraiths ult seems to have some unique mechanics coded in like it holding you there which probably makes it exempt. I couldn't find a timing that canceled it. At least the passive will lower it's duration.
Question cuz i always wanted to test abilities in sandbox, how do you make a bot shoot at you or use a specific ability on you ?
Hold tab, aim at a bot, and click a command like Mimic or Puppet. Also if you are in mimic and buy an item or upgrade an ability it replicates to the bot. Hope that helps!
@ thanks a lot man
Does debuff reducer/remover affect the movement slow and debuff a from Viscous’ puddle punch?
Technically you can purge successfully while standing on the puddle but it's not worth it because of three reasons:
- Doesn't have a high percentage of effectiveness (35%)
-Doesn't have a long duration (it's 0 sec actually)
-Its a movement slow which I would just say to buy Enduring Speed for most the slow in the game and save the souls (like for Kelvin, mirage, paradox, etc)
Hope that helps, Cheers!
Good vid
I came for lash ulti and u skipped it 😅
Does it cancel the tether in the channeling phase of the ulti
Yup I didn't include because it doesn't work. I wish :P. It cleanses the visual entity but not the grab. You can purge the slow that comes after you land but not sure how much that will save your life lol
Your data is also 2 months out of date, it even states august 30th patch. This is due to valve shutting down the data harvesting from deadlock's matches.
You meant the pick rate data? That's true, it's the best we got though outside of anecdotal experience. I would guess it's still low comparatively to other items, since it requires lots of game knowledge to use effectively. Hopefully we will get updated data soon.
@@arrowplunge Probably true, but I also just never upgrade to debuff remover because debuff reducer + improved spirit armor generally does most of the things you need to all the time, but it is super useful when you meet 2-3 of the characters that its important against.
The API is public now
@@FairwellNoob The official one?
Gud video
And now the item got buffed in the last patch.
The timing is hilarious, 40% is beefy.
Isn't stun a debuff, and can be removed with debuff remover? im only saying this due to debuff reducer reducing it.
Correct, the separation is that when someone says stun it generally includes a debuff that prevents ability activation during it's duration like a mini Curse. In this game we have things like Silence, Disarm, and curse which are all forms of debuffs. If something has a negative effect on you and has a duration then the passive probably applies to it: like Ivy Stone, wraith ult, etc even when the Active cannot be used. Thanks for the comment!
Your list is missing Curse. While you cannot cleanse a Curse (prevents items), the -40% duration still applies, effectively countering it.
This means e.g. Bebop cannot counter DR with Curse because Curse duration will be reduced from 3.25 to 1.95 seconds and bombs take 3s to explode.
So you can still cleanse double bomb before or after Curse anyway. Debuff remover is just that good vs Bebop that you can just never attach a bomb again.
Only thing Bebop can do is self bomb + leap/warp/phantom or self bomb into hook.
You make some good points. My lists and video overall was for active portion of the item (Abram’s being the only exception). I would have had to include everything that has a negative effect with a duration if I included the passive such as curse, ivy stone, wraith ult etc. That being said with the most recent update making it 40% I do think the passive is stronger than the active because of how much it applies to. Bebop’s could delay applying curse to prevent remover but you’re right it would make the timing tighter. Thanks for the comment, Cheers!
@@arrowplunge Technically you can delay Curse, but depending on the enemy's reaction time, he can still cleanse the bombs right away before you apply Curse.
Basically assuming enemy is just spamming DR as soon as he gets attached, he WILL remove the bombs either before or after the Curse.
This is besides the main topic, but all I wanted to say is that Curse is a bad item purchase for Bebop because DR also counters Curse even if on surface it seems that preventing item usage is the perfect counter to DR.
Unlike Silence Glyph which is a good Bebop purchase because it still counters ability immunities and costs just 3k and can be sold once enemies buy DR's in mass for e.g. Warp Stone or Phantom strike.
@@madkirby823 That's true I rarely see bebop/curse, if a bebop is gonna spend that much on an item it should be more impactful than a curse that is 60% long.
Its status resist from Dota which is an absolutely busted stat, don’t let ppl know. I’m buying this or at least debuff reducer most games and went up a full badge last week
@@pknova88 true and it’s currently the only way to get it. 40% is also really high, I mean that’s almost half everything’s duration. For krill and wraith ults that’s life or death.
Does it reduce the length of curse?
The passive does, my lists were only for the Active part of it though. Now with the buff to Removers passive being at 40% it's very strong.
Just learned that you cant use debuff remover on wraith ult
Ya, most ults are immune to the active but are impacted by the passive. A few exceptions that come to mind are pockets ult can be cleansed and Dyno's ult isn't impacted by Debuff resist I believe.
Imo both debuff reducer and remover are mandatory
man who made these captions?
Do wraith ult count?
The active doesn't stop wraith Ult but the Passive reduces the duration by 40% which is huge.
great video. i would only recommend to make the video a bit shorter
Dynamo’ black hole ?
Nope, not even the passive works sadly
I didn't knew that shiv's knives stack, bro😭😭😭(I am shiv main)
😂 Ya that's why Rapid Recharge is so common. Don't worry I just learned today after many hundreds of games what can prevent you from getting shot off zip. lol Apparently I am late to the party on that one haha
sandbox sally, do a grey talon video UwU
Good video. I enjoy content like this
You forgot about ivy!!! 😂
True haha. I could have included her but I don't think her ult is that strong with the active of remover. The passive applies to her stun and ult though.
Mic's a bit quiet
Seems fine to me
Have you tried turning up the volume?
I thought this is datohleong
Sandbox Sally
Daddy give me more videos
Bebop can double bomb himself
You are right, I think bomb Bebop is one of Debuff Remover best uses but it doesn't mean it full counters the hero. They could also just buy curse or something to stop the cleanse. Good call out.
sandbox sally
👋that's mee :)