after playing kh3... I miss kh2 combat so much. I agree with you kh2 had a much better sense of control with combat. I still had fun in kh3 but thats because there is just tons of different ways of dishing out damage .
Pretty much this. 3 was. Fun because it was constantly so flashy. 2's system was fun because it was very solid and legit. 3 is .. Solid and legit. It's just extremely disappointing.
@@pn2294 Even KH1 and KH Re:Com, of all games, had more satisfying air combos. In fact, in the latter, while air combos may not do as much damage as ground combos, they do have a shorter amount of time to execute, which means you can kill heartless before they break your cards in the middle of your combo
(Not remind) Kh3 secret boss vs (not final mix) kh2 secret boss, I say kh2 is better because it's fun and the combat is better, kh3 the heartless name idk he's annoying because you attack to slow, because I really like kh2 combat because its fun
The final argument posed by this video - "If KH2 can provide a positive experience for hardcore and casual fans alike, why can't 3?" is sooooooooooooooo sososo important. So important. People gloss over this so much! KH2 was brilliant because its fluid combos made the game open up at the high-end but also feel every bit as flashy as 0.2 and KH3. It sacrificed none of the flash and gave us all the functionality we could dream of resulting in a game that made literally everyone happy (gameplay wise). I don't understand why people lobby so hard against the combat being designed more tightly when accomplishing this would only add more depth and polish to elevate the game one step closer to being a total masterpiece. It wouldn't even compromise the flash and pizazz you've gotten used to with BBS, because at worst you wouldn't even notice the difference and at best you're able to play it on standard and come back to play on critical mode and find that there was so much more to the game you previously played before. It's a win-win on every account!
Agreed, as he mentioned, there's a line between an action that floats(Aerial Finish) and generalized "floaty" combat, and alongside the animations being god awful long, I think a point thats been missed is that Osaka Combos lack... focus, if you look at KH1 or 2 Sora's basic air and ground combos, you'll notice that every action tends to overlap as a centered strike zone, with combo-mods having motions more suited to dragging or shoving(Explosion, Magnet Splash), Osaka Combos tend to look and feel more like you're just flailing blindly forward, which combined with the wretched speed, leaves you whiffing and getting counter-hit a lot
Most people aren't lobbying hard against the idea of the combat being better. We're lobbying hard about everyone calling the game shit because of what it currently is.
@@GrammerPancreas Most people that actually have an argument against floaty combat arent calling the game shit. Theyre calling the game dissappointing, because it is.
yup. i loved kh2, played on proud because it was arguably more challenging that critical due to not getting front loaded skills making early game force the basics on you before you get better defensive options. Played kh3 on proud mode... died twice, once to my first pirate encounter being the boss ship when i was fresh out of port royal, and it 2 shot me, and once from my own mistake in an early fight. after that, no challenge until end game. Might try 0exp proud and see if its any better, but will likely feel terrible to play due to the odds i will never want to combo outside of 1 on 1 fights.
I would argue that KH2 felt more flashy than KH3 and it's for one simple reason: In Kingdom Hearts 2, outside of most reaction commands, when something cool happens in combat, it's because I know that it's me who made it happen. In Kingdom Hearts 3, however, I don't feel like I'm doing anything when I kill enemies. I don't feel special, I don't feel good, I feel like I was patted on the back for being able to press X and use attractions that require me to press X.
After beating KH3 today I fully agree that the floaty combat hurts gameplay, in the final battle against Xehanort your forced to be in the air and can’t even finish combos or else you eat a million attacks you have to hit then dash constantly or abuse the op magic
TheJblu I died because of floaty combat. I couldn’t tell his attacks were combo finishers so i can Arial Recover and heal or more combo hit so I don’t use arial recover while he’s whaling on me. I’m glad we can guard and use items on air but there’s some enemies that doesn’t stop attack you
@Groisu The combat is not balanced so a higher difficulty just means what bloody said about KH bbs misterious figure and KH 0.2, you will only use a few attacks and avoid most of the time, leaving you feel limited and frustrated rather than challenged. I don't think there's a fix to KH3, unfortunately.
I haven’t played kh3 yet so no spoilers please but is there at least a zero exp ability so I can’t make the game challenging for myself when I do play it?
When you ride a bike, drive a car, or do pretty much anything involving motorskills, the most joy you have with those things is when you completely forget about them. When the vehicle is so responsive to what you do that it feels like it's a part of you and your brain can more or less ignore that it's even there. This is the design philosophy that went into KH2. Sora being badass felt like you being badass because you had perfect control over him. Sora getting hit felt like you getting hit. Osaka team gameplay? "NOTICE ME!"
@@mistertagomago7974 The simple version is the game is unsatisfying because there's no space for spontaneity or unpredictability anymore. Your attacks are so sluggish and the enemies are so slippery that if you beat them it's either because you were overleveled and arbitrarily overwhelmed them or refused to treat the scenario as an action game at all: you scrubbed your way to victory with cheap tactics. What people want from a game is the same thing they want from life: unpredictability. When you're highly skilled at something -- even something completely sedentary, like writing -- it's like there's two yous going on. One you playing the game and another you watching the first you play the game. Unexpected things happen and you get a little anxious because your conscious mind can't process things fast enough to counter the threat. But by the time you even know what's happened, this mysterious other you who is at once in your control and yet non in your control, like you're riding a horse or something, has already reacted to and superseded the problem. And every time one of these splitsecond brushes with failure/death happens, you get a rush of exhilaration. The other you is there, but there's always the fear that they he'll fall asleep and won't intervene. As you continue to improve, the thrill dies down and you just accept that your skills don't really belong to your conscious mind and that you don't really know or control anything at all until you consciously remember it. That's the feeling of 身勝手の極意. Roxas himself is an allegory for this phenomenon. He represents Sora's higher self; the mediator between his conscious and unconscious being, but at the same time, Roxas -- in his roles as Ventus, I.E spirit -- can't discern anything without the light of Sora's awareness. The two need each other. Where Sora is absent, Vanitas encroaches and the contents of the unconscious become inter-contaminated, as expressed by his desire to "become one" with Ventus. Like the imagery of a psychedelic trip or schizophrenia. ...Shit... That was orders of magnitude more complicated that what I started with! Well anyway, the point is that Osaka team's gameplay completely disintegrates this feeling of stakes and unpredictability by breaking down this complex space of threats and opportunities that the player has to navigate. You want to feel in control and that means reducing the amount of time between an input and a response as possible. But at the same time, the extent to which an experience is outside your control is the extent to which it really feels alive to you. Randomized retaliations isn't the answer to this because it's so unpredictable the other way that risks of dealing with are eclipsed by the rewards of circumventing it; it encroaches upon the player's ability to respond to the situation. The happy medium is reached when the controls are tight, the enemy is predictable, but the pattern of their predictability is complex and difficult to master. And that's just Lingering Will in a nutshell.
@@lavaxtris If that's what you think of what I have to say, then you shouldn't have any difficulty in coming up with a counterargument. Or don't you have one?
Fighting games and action games aren't as vastly different as some people make them out to be, one of the most acclaimed action games, Devil May Cry 3 was directed by a guy who was a lead designer/director on several classic 90s fighting games like Street Fighter Alpha, the people making these arguments don't know much about action games or fighting games
Fighting games are a type of action game. Action games can be considered reflex challenges, or primarily so. But fighting games are of a smaller scope which is fine to specialize in one on one combat.
Dude I 100% agree. A silly example is I was playing FighterZ with my brother as his house for a whole weekend, went home and booted up bayonetta 1 and I understood it a lot better just from my time with a different 2D Fighting game I love when people are like "fighting games and action RPGs are so different why do people compare them"
i know what you mean one thing i hate the most in any game is that my characters feels unresponsive period but you have to remember that many of the people that will buy this game will be weeboo, that like to be more flashy and cool than to have a solid gameplay, and this is the mentality of many anime fan in general since this type of game are cater to them
It’s not that people don’t want to have full control of their character. It’s just that this person is telling us that the game we’ve been waiting so long for will be bad. People are lashing out because the last thing they want is to be disappointed. I also understand where people like the guy from the video are coming from. They want the game to be better. They probably believe that if enough people begin to care about these problems, then maybe the Osaka team will listen. However, we do not have a direct voice. This makes us, the fans, feel powerless in changing the outcome of the game. All this video has done is make me feel sad. I hope that the game isn’t bad. I’ve been waiting too long for that.
@@sablen1319 And yet, if we stop denying and start accepting it, if everyone who turns a deaf ear to these problems actually points them out, maybe they might actually change something.
@@sablen1319 you're hoping that the game is not bad but this guy is literally telling you right now that the game will be bad and that you should stop denying it you will have a greater enjoyment of the game if you accept that is not gonna be a masterpiece and lower your expectations
I thought keyblade wielders were supposed to develop godlike powers once they reached a certain point in their power. Osaka games make them look like they're barely any more powerful than normals
Gotta love how attacked this fandom can feel when someone addresses legitimate issues based on factual evidence and a faulty track record of team osaka. These are important flaws that need to be spoken about, we’ve waited for this game for many years, that doesn’t mean we should just accept whatever is given to us, if anything we should expect for it to be great and not have the same restrictive feelings that 0.2 had. Stop being butthurt idiots and learn to understand constructive criticism and expect better from the developers that you support. And this is coming from a LIFETIME kingdom hearts fan who already pre ordered KH3. It’s natural to have concerns, it’s not being cynical or toxic it’s being realistic and rightfully critical of something that seemingly isn’t meeting expectations, and yes, those criticisms SHOULD be made before the games release because it gives developers time to FIX the issues before they put it out.
I know this is 3 years late, but brah I’m saying, the fanbase is defending this shit with their life!! They will attack you if you don’t think kh3 and everything about it is perfect, they accept no legit criticism and now because their isn’t enough backlash we’re gonna be stuck with this going forward
@@Coldoroki Putting that aside, now that the DLC and Limit Cut are out, do you still think KH2 is better? I think after the DLC KH3 outperformed KH2. Both when it comes to controlling Sora and when it comes to boss design.
@@mitigamespro8757 I think the control still poor, sora still feels weightless and not as fluid as 2. The boss design is almost perfect if there weren't for block fail and some bosses that can get retaliated back from an invisible wall.
The, "you're just nitpicking because you want faster times when you speedrun it," argument is stupid, because in that case, every single speedrunner would be equally affected by the problem and it wouldn't end up making a difference either way with regards to speedrun times across individuals. Even if you don't consciously notice small things like input lag and drawn-out animations when they happen, you subconsciously _feel_ it, and it feels worse. That's the problem. It's a matter of enjoyment, not competition.
@Andrew Pyle that and speedrunners exploit bugs and such that would get you to the credits screen faster, but removes some of the fun (if not most) to a casual player
@Andrew Pyle It's not just about speed. People are not asking for lightning fast attacks. Just a more satisfying speed as opposed to the combat animations we've got in KH the last ca. 10 years.
KH diehards will find any excuse to invalidate criticism. The dumbest I've heard was them getting mad at people for the audacity that people skip cutscenes they've seen before because it ruins the experience of KHs dumb story.
This was a good video. To be honest, especially on Reddit (where the closer to release you get the more defensive people get), it feels as if the term "floaty" has turned into a meme: most would consider anyone using the word as a sheep who's just repeating what their heard others say. The issue, as you said, isn't just the floatiness of the combat: it's how slow combos are and how they keep putting you in danger. I'm planning to play KH3 on Standard the first time, just in case there's some dumb boss that would prevent me from playing through the game, but even then I care *immensely* about combos and how they feel. I'm going to be pressing X to see those animations for 30+ hours on my playthrough, they better be satisfying and fast. I want to feel like I am controlling the game, not the game controlling me. I wouldn't consider 0.2 as a game with a bad combat system (there's much worse out there), but it *IS* heavily flawed in a way that may ruin the fun of higher difficulties. I want another Kingdom Hearts game where it feels like I'm controlling Sora, if I die it's my fault, if I win it's because I was able to read and counter the enemy. While anyone saying the combat system is a disaster is straight up lying, so is anybody who straight up worships it as a flawless masterpiece that shouldn't be improved. Thanks for the food for thought, I truly do hope they refined the combat system as well as they could (especially in these 2 months after the game went golden).
It definitely a meme, but out of context and even in, this scenario is a bit silly. Although most people do acknowledge the problem stated by BB and others. old.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/ac04g8/media_the_consequences_of_floaty_combat_in/ed4ajnc/
KH's sub is one of the worst sub on Reddit. You can't literally express an unpopular opinion without getting bashed and downvoted by blind fans who think the game is flawless. Of course there are some exceptions, but that's the general trend imo. EDIT: typo
@@jareddrake8656 I loved following the subreddit, but the closer we get to KH3's release, the worse it gets. Surprisingly, this video's reception was more positive than I expected. The issue is that outside of this, it's very hard to even go with the assumption that KH3 won't be flawless in every regard. I've seen many, many general worries and criticisms downvoted, criticized or hell, even insulted, despite the usual excuse being "so far we've seen older builds", which does not hold up anymore that well, given the recent leaks that give us actual release game footage to back up claims with (not going into leaks for spoiler reasons, of course). I like places where Kingdom Hearts fans can discuss. I hate where everyone is forced into blind fanboyism (on the subreddit, I've even seen many agree that if you don't adore everything about KH3 you're not a true fan, which is... A very bad way to think.)
I play kingdom hearts casually and I was able to feel a difference between the two games, I just couldn't put my finger on what it was till I randomly found this video on my recommended list.
The real tragedy is that Mitsunori Takahashi, who is responsible for making KH2’s combat so intricate, was appointed to work on FF7R. Nomura expressed that he wanted certain devs from KH2 to help but were split working on FFXV for Business Division 2. Tai Yasue who has been working on all the handheld titles (specifically BBS/DDD) is co-directing and presumably laying out the battle concepts. Seeing how Osaka/BD3 has never formally worked on a mainline console ported title aside from 0.2, I never once expected them to emulate the feelings of KH2. I’m glad you’re bringing this video up prior to release since expectations are definitely inflated. Though most core fans won’t really see it this way and still enjoy the game for what it is. We always have KH4 to improve upon the shortcomings as a positive.
Kingdom Hearts 4? PFFFFFFFF. See you in 20 more years (although I guess it'll depend on sales for 3). At least FF7 Remake is looking to be fast and fluid. Mitsunori Takahashi knows what's up
@@fazeamber9123 Omg what? What's your fucking problem? You're on a fucking video discussing the combat gameplay of KH3. What's your problem with people expressing their opinion of what we've seen of the game thusfar? A lot of people like to act like you can't get anything out of gameplay trailers because you gotta *feel* it. Gtfoh with that bullshit. A lot of people can pick up on these details and if we relay this feedback back to Square it's all to our collective benefit. We don't need to sing every single one of this video game series' entries praises. KH is to us as much our baby as it is to Square so of course we try to take care of it, so why do you guys need to interfere? Nobody's saying the game is shit. We're just arguing about how to improve it. How is that an issue?
@@dominokos Look at how triggered you are. Yikes, man. That's embarrassing. First, I want addressing the creator of the video. I was addressing the person who left the comment. There is no "we" involved here. As the creator of the video said, I am doing all I can do: hope for the best. That being said, you cannot make gameplay judgements based on what we have. The original commentor was acting as if the game has already failed. They even went so far as to reference the next kingdom hearts game. This is false. The game has not failed. It is too early to think about the next kingdom hearts game. We will not know about the third game's quality until it is actually released. And yes. You do need to play it, in order to judge it. You cannot judge game PLAY without playing a game. Bloody bizkitz has had the privilege to do so
yeah, it really frustrates me when people look at pro kh players or speed runners and write them off for understanding the game to a mechanical level. Like of course someone who spends more time understanding the game is going to know what flaws the game has and what can be improved upon. I just don't understand kh fans sometimes
I think the problem is that there are a lot of casual fans who will only look at the game on standard difficulty. In doing so, they don't realize how amplified these things become on proud/crit mode and just wrote it off as a difficulty spike rather than the issues that they are. These are also the same people who don't bother to learn game mechanics and believe they should be able to get through the game button mashing and looking cool, and also that the right controls might impact how cool they look.
I understand. I just don’t care as much. Although I do personally believe Square Enix should take note of this. As much as I enjoyed games like Birth by Sleep and Dream Drop Distance, I won’t deny that I preferred KH2 in terms of gameplay. But even then, It’s not like KH3 will be ruined if it’s not as good or better than KH2.
i'm also worried about is player downtime, rather, how much of the game i'm not playing versus how much i am. KH1 got this beautifully where outside of cutscenes you were always playing the game, barring summoning animations. In KH2 you had reaction commands on top of that. These unlocked flashy attacks that usually didn't take too long, would do a lot of damage or gain you an upper hand in some fashion. In addition many are entirely optional. i'm worried that KH3 will overdevelop flashy combos where the best way to take out enemies will be akin to watching flashy cinematics play out rather than a test of player skill
lol, you were right. I almost never use Attractions and team attacks for this reason. Maybe once in a while to switch up the gameplay if it's one of the good ones. But goofy bombard? donald flare/meteor? magic carouselle? fucking pirate ship!? Pirate ship has to be the single most stupid thing in KH3... I think I used it 4 times, one to see, and the rest by accident.
@@mangomariel: pirate ship sucks yeah, i remember disliking that too, i tend to not use attractions at all, and if i do i just go into the finisher instantly to get it over with i use team commands since they do decent damage
@@SessmaruKusanagiGaming: well, the game is still fun, despite what could've been. instead of being disappointed this isn't the next KH2 but better i'm just going to enjoy it for what it is; a good and for the most part, well-designed action RPG. -which i still need to get back to-
Reading the comments section In here is immensely frustrating. How hard is it for people to take a step back and try and understand the point being made here instead of immediately jumping to defensive things like "Well I like it so who cares." Or "It doesnt matter kingdom hearts isnt about the combat." Or just attacking people. This is absurd.
If Kingdom Hearts isn't about the combat, then is it about the "story?" Cause I'd place all my chips on the former. At least the KH2 gameplay was great.
Dolphinboi KH was always about the combat, no one really gave a fuck about the convoluted shonen-esque story tbh. KH2 did excel in both gameplay and story though, it has one of the best prologues in gaming I've ever seen.
PerrySport the story is pretty bad though. Everything after the first game just muddled up the entire plot to seem smart when it’s not. The combat was its saving grace and that’s been bad ever since 2 so unless square gets their shit together there’s no saving KH.
you know ever since I join the kh reddit last year i keep hearing the term floaty but kept disregarding it glad that I watched this video cause i can now notice the differences in combat
This man saw the future. I have a ton of gripes with the battle mechanics in KH3. Its so sad because they’re all extremely easy fixes to already unnecessary elements.
@MisAnthro Pony pacing in story wasnt great, no middle section of the game to pace out the story, not many keyblades, not much enemy diversity even for an osaka game just look at bbs. On top of the fact that attraction commands are just a nuisance and you cant turn it off at all throughout the game. Just few of the many problems of kh3.
@MisAnthro Pony the attraction are constant in every battle and you cant turn it off at all. The keyblades are very few and the argument of using a keyblade for stats isnt a good point as the effects of a keyblade are important especially in kh2, in kh3 only like a handful of keyblades are good such as the tangled keyblade, big hero 6 and the pirates of the carribean keyblades. Once you get the ultimate keyblade there is nothing left to kill as you can kill the secret boss with the heros origin formchange finish easily. In kh2 only 1 keyblade isn't useful and that is hidden dragon but every other keyblade has uses in many situations in the game but in kh3 that kind of flexibility with keybladrs isnt present.
@MisAnthro Pony the abilities on keyblades dont lose its effectiveness once sora learns it, they stack especially on higher difficulties such as critical mode due to the fact that you get extra abilities that other modes do not provide to you such as an extra reaction boost which when stacked with guardian soul and when sora has the ability learnd can be devastatingly powerful in many fights that have a reaction command such as the Data organization fights, lexeaus is especially easy due to having 3 reaction boosts on sora. The keyblades in kh2 are useful due to the abilities and stats behind it except hidden dragon as that keyblade isnt good at strength nor magic even when compared to sweet memories which is a 0 strength keyblade but due to the ability of drive converter in kh2fm make leveling up summons and master form very easy on top of the fact that decisive pumpkin's combo boost is especially useful when stack with the ability and can really help with hard fights such as lingering will, sephiroth, data org again, hell even mysterious abyss can help due to blizzard boost which can help with axel as hes weak to ice but it goes even further when you also consider drive forms on top of your keyblade abilities such as final form with ultima and bound by flame with 4 full bloom + accessories, firaga loop without finisher is incredibly powerful and useful for bosses such as vexen and demyx but not the only way to beat them. Kh3's attraction flow can be ignored however the main problem with it in kh3 is due to the frequency of how often a attraction command spawns in a fight. in kh3 each fight is a mob fight with the exception of bossfights, meaning you will be spamming magic which will lead to grand magic or a formchange which will lead to a AOE finisher. This by in itself isnt bad however it begins to become stale and not really fun nor challenging even in proud mode. Enemy variety is lacking a lot as there aren't many unversed nor a whole lot of nobodies but a plethera of heartless. What gives? They could resuse old models of unversed and spiced it up with new moves or just have different properties like with the sorcerer and berserker in kh3 or just add in even more unversed and nobodies to expand the enemy roster. This could have been accomplished by having a middle point within the story to flesh out the whole cast and pace out the story by tieing up loose ends by the previous entries such as kairi being a former resident of radient garden as an example as thats a plot point that never was explained within kh 1 nor kh2 and uncovering the main reason as to why xehanort wanted to uncover the X-blade and start another keyblade war, the motivation behind his ambition to start a war as well as the events in his childhood that sparked his innate curiosity into weilding darkness and light in equal shares, instead of its a chess game gg well played my guy and somehow im a good guy and you gotta believe it bullshit.
@MisAnthro Pony stacking abilities in kh2 is indeed useful due to the effectiveness it has in fight but not every ability must be equipped such as combo plus and air combo plus as each ability has usefulness in different situations, an example of how the abilities can be ineffective can be is during boss fights as bosses have revenge value and can punish you with a counter attack, good example for this is dark inferno, the organisation fights near the end of kh3, lingering will, every boss in kh 1, kh2 and kh bbs (although you can argue with bbs that RV was implemented very horribly as the bosses counter regardless of revenge value) as well as other superbosses within the kingdom Hearts series except with birth by sleep bosses due to how frequent the bosses counterattacks regardless of revenge value. On top of the fact that a majority of the time players dont equip every ability for every fight, examples being negative combo, auto abilities, dodge slash, combo plus. With your regards towards the keyblades in kingdom hearts 2, every keyblade has a use some are more useful than others and the fact that sweet memories is only used for leveling masterform is indeed a valid arguement but that can also be said about the monochrome keyblade and follow the wind as those 2 keyblades also have only one use same with the Gullwing keyblade however i counter this with the fact that each of these keyblsdes serves a purpose regardless of how big or small it but it serves a purpose regardless. In kh3 the only keyblades you mainly would use is tangled, heros origin, kingdom key, pirates and big hero 6. Even though the stats are pale in comparison to ultima they get the job done just as quick an example is the countershield finisher with heros origin wrathful fury and tangleds fuck off lazers. You kinda didnt understand the problem with attraction flow commands, yes they are optional, but the ISSUE with these commands is the sole fact that it is too frequent and the game forces these command option to the player which overall sucks and needs to be changed to be less frequent and or the option to be turned off. When i was talking about the staleness of kh3 it was due to each mob fight being just cast magic to formchange to cast op finisher and grand magic which can auto track, example being firaza, thunderza, waterza hell not even just the za spells just any grand magic in genral. Form changes do indeed modify the spells in ways such as highwind making every spell aoe but thats like the only one which kinda blows. Kh2 has indeed broken stuff in the game such as firaga loop final form, limits in general like duck flare and trinity limit. Limits are balanced in a smart way as each limit regardless drains ALL OF YOUR MP. This can be argued that you can bring items thus nullify this drawback which is indeed true but there are only a limited amout of item slots your going to have even when compared to kh1 and kh3. Limit are incredibly powerful when used correctly in fights, example being demyx with trinity limit or duck flare with larxene and demyx, Firaga loop final form is indeed comically busted however the driveforms drain quick even with 2 drive boosts and oathkeepeer equipped as each attack deplets the drive guage very quickly especially with final form on top of the fact that each form has a required amount of drive guage in order to be used as well as a condition to be met such as donald and goofy being alive with the exception of limit form. Now limit form is really powerful but is balanced in a way thats smart as you cant use magic to regain your hp so in order to regain hp you use your limits to regain it, 3 of your limits dont have invincibility frames the whole way through especially Ragnarok, strike raid has full invincibility frames but the finisher and the attacks of strike raid are slow and if used in fights that are challenging such as lingering will, the strike raid limit will be your downfall as the finisher has very little invincibility frames to cover you from an attack and you cant act out of a limit immediately thus making it very risky. This can also be said with the other limits within limit form just varying in degree. With the nobodies in kh2 although not many, there were still more than what we got in kh3 same goes with the unversed in bbs, there way more and each had a unique way of fighting it an example being dragoon, these nobodies telegraph their attacks with audio and visual ques so you the player can counter their movements with either the RC or just anything like a attack or magic this design of incorporating both audio and visual effects to attacks with the enemies in kh2 gave players signs on what attack is coming and incentives players to properly punish with the RC and or attack when appropriate, even in mob fights within kh2, even though your focused on an enemy you can see but know there are other enemies within the room, you can still hear the other movements of enemies and act accordingly by dodging or using RC and get rewarded due to listening.
You put this perfectly. Theres a reason KH2 was easily the best. I must admit that i did actually like Flowmotion a bit because it did make it a bit faster with the ground spike but still KH2 best gameplay mechanics.
Hey I totally agree with everything but I try to keep in mind from my experience working in game development (quality assurance) for a AAA title that trailers are usually made from old builds. The newest up to date builds with all the new changes have a lot of bugs that come from those new changes and are being worked out. So usually any trailer you see is on an older build of the game. That's why I'm hoping that they did make stuff less floaty after people got their hands on the demos.
This is kind of what I was thinking too. I had just assumed that all the newer footage was actually still just old footage that they've had for months, probably before any of that testing actually happened where they brought people in, since there's so much time associated with prepping a new trailer and releasing it.
I've been really tempted to look at the KH3 leaks to see how the combat is but I just can't do it. I thought about them having older builds as well. Idk, it's going to be a long month.
@@MyCloudGaming unfortunately not. The BH6 world trailer even got slated by Nomura saying "We dont have enough of it done to show a trailer but when we do, we will." So by that logic when the BH6 trailer came out, one of the later ones, it was closer to a current build, and like BB said, the combat still looks mighty floaty.
Why are Kingdom Hearts fans so defensive? If you don’t agree, argue the premise or the arguments. Not the person Bloody is stating an understandable concern for all the people that actually got into kh2’s combat. You don’t hear people saying: “It’s an ARPG, not a fighting game” about Nioh, right? Even though it sticks to many if those design philosophies in its combat. What kind if comment is that? Great video Bloody. I pray to god, they fix osaka’s previous combat in kh3
It'd be cool if these nitpickers made their games. I mean, they clearly know game design despite never making a video game. Screw thpse professional developers that made millions off of KH. Making video games is so easy. I wish Japanese people thousands of miles away from me would listen to a non native to Japan person like myself.
@@frogglen6350 It doesn't matter how hard something is to make. If you're making a product and want people to buy it, it's very open to criticism. Regardless of whether or not the customers have experience in that craft. Hell, even using the "making video games is hard" excuse doesn't even when certain video games turn out to be bad products
@@frogglen6350 just because it isn't easy doesn't excuse the devs when they make a substandard product. we've waited this long already, why not take the time to actually make it an improvement over 2?
@@bevvvy1374 I really wish we could ride on horseback. I mean, mounted combat with keyblades would've made for a great concept! And why don't the games let us just punch heartless and nobodies with our bare hands? I'm sure they'd be far quicker than using keyblades despite doing less damage than most. Or really, why can't we use any weapons other than keyblades? I mean, it's not like most keyblade wielders are able to fight effectively without their keyblades. Just ask Sora. He'll tell you about that time in Hollow Bastion where he lost the ability to use the keyblade (man, I'm using the word "keyblade" almost as much as many KH characters, including in this sentence). Unless for whatever reason, his memory was tampered with again
@@linkskywalker5417 If you don't fight heartless with the keyblade they just keep coming back because their hearts are never set free or something like that. Was covered in the first game. Personally I already hate the more open worlds so I don't want vehicles but you do you
The reason they should cater to the small portion of players who notice these things is because in truth *everyone* notices it to some extent. It's just that these more pro-players are conciously aware of it. While these other players only notice it subconciously. In the back of their mind there will still be an unsatisfying feeling of something being "off". They aren't able to pinpoint what exactly it is but even they will all know that something feels "worse" than it did in the second game (at least for those that have played it).
This exactly; I'm a casual player, and a bad one at that, since I too "mash X and heal to win", and I didn't like how in 0.2 Aqua kept missing airbone enemies I was trying to aim for, and didn't like how unsatisfyingly laggy air slide felt (to the point that I just used cartwheel to move faster, or doubleflight to jump a far distance; I do the same in 3D)... but I wrote it off as just me being not a good player. And I also haven't played KH2 in such a long time, so comparisons are never at the forefront of my mind. But watching this video has made me consciously aware of this difference, and thinking back to KH2, I did really like how fast you could move in it, and how the drive forms felt, and the invincibility some of the moves gave, even if I wasn't taking advantage of everything as a whole like pro players can do. I definitely have watched KH3's combat in the trailers and not liked how many flashy special moves there are, with keyblade transformations and being able to switch keyblades and whatnot, just because it feels..... unnecessary and overwhelming? I don't like the command system in BBS and 3D either, because there's so much to choose from and 95% of them I don't even use, because I don't know _what_ to use. I'd rather just go back to KH2's gameplay..... less is more, I think is what the devs aren't getting anymore.
@@ProPinkist The reason less is more, especially in game development, is because when you do less you can go further in-depth with it. If you keep making more and more and add more on top of it it *has* to be shallow, because you *have* to work less on each gameplay component to allow for more of the "shallow" gameplay components and gimmicks to be added.
Mash X player here, and I can confirm. I never finished actually playing bbs bc it felt stiff and wrong and I was able to play a demo of kh3 and my biggest take away was that it was very smooth. Too smooth. I wish there was more snap in it. It all feels a big one noted with very little weightiness. I don’t quite feel like my hits have impact
This. BBS was my first KH game and I STILL had that feeling in the back of my head saying "Something's a bit off about the combat and movement. But oh well, it's fun overall".
Main reason why KH2 is the best in the franchise is purely because of amazing gameplay. Compare Lingering Will fight to Mysterious Figure, the game feels like an downgrade instead of upgrade, and that's because the gameplay in KHBBS sucks. I always thought that it's the gameplay what makes Kingdom Hearts good, and without it, it's dead.
And then it comes the final upgrade... I mean, downgrade Kingdom Hearts 3D where the totality of the moves are useless and are going to get yourself killed oh yeah, balloon, at least we have that huh..
Gotta agree. Although even if the gameplay isn’t as good as KH2, it’s not like that means KH3 is gonna be bad. I personally believe KH3 isn’t going to surpass KH2 in terms of its gameplay. I’ve thought that for a long time. But again, it’s not like KH3 is ruined if it’s not as good or better than KH2’s combat.
KH2 would not still be played 13 years after it came out, cared about, or aged very well if it didn't feel so damn good to play. I play it again every year because I have fun doing it no matter how many times it's been. I force myself to play ALL Osaka games, they are not terrible but they're not *that* fun so what good is a game if it doesn't entertain you.
I force myself to do kh3 (not remind) secret boss it takes me 2 days and I hate myself do it, I don't feel happy about myself defending him, not like kh2 (not final mix) it take me alot of days to master that fight and once I beat sephiroth I feel happy like yea I beat that guy
It's a bit disingenuous when you mention *all* Osaka games, even though the vast majority of them are removed from standard KH comabt due to command decks and other gameplay and stylistic differences compared to the difference between 2 and 3. 2 and 3 are the same game in terms of combat, with 3 simply being the polished version of 2. People keep playing 2 brcuase they're simps for nostalgia, it's just that simple. It's the same reason people keep playing melee after multiple iterations of Smash, despite it being massively outdated. It's the same reason people keep insisting that Raimi's Spider-Man movies were great when they really truly weren't. Nostalgia governs all of these decisions, and it governs 2 as well. A lot of the same criticisms i hear directed at 3 were directed at 2 once upon a time. Everyone just forgets that fact. The combat in 2 is the worst thing to ever happen to KH combat throughout the series. It's what changed the game from a slower and more focused game to an X masher.
You know when I was seven years old playing Kingdom hearts 2 for the first time I quickly concluded that my new action ability dodge slash was garbage. I figured that Sora doing a little dance leaving him open to take damage was a bad thing. I then of course unequipped the ability. If I can see why being animation locked for minimal or no compensation (dodge slash is only useful against specific bosses after all) at the age of SEVEN I simply can not see why anyone much older than that can not see floaty combat as a problem. As has been proven time and time again there is a LOT we can complain about floaty combat ruining. But I have yet to hear how non-floaty combat in any way ruins the game for a low difficulty player.
@@Shemegory To be fair Dodge Slash is an ability more useful for mob fights than bosses. His little dance has hitboxes all around which can snag enemies behind you trying hit you. It can also parry projectiles fairly well. Not saying it's amazing but that might be the intended use...
I am not sure what you are trying to say to whom but if you are accusing me of being nostalgia blind you are remarkably stupid. If I was nostalgia blind why the hell would I be so critical about flaws in KH combat? If more specifically you mean nostalgia blind for KH2 then you are just full of shit now. The only other game in the KH series that could compete for the spot of objective best is KH1 and I personally don't really like KH1. I would rather play Re:Coded. Does that make Re:Coded a better game? Hell no. KH2's combat is objectively more fluid than the likes of BBS and DDD. You can still have BBS or DDD be your favorite but that does not invalidate the glaring issues they have in their combat issues. If anyone is nostalgia blind it is the pro-floaty crowd that doesn't want their fragile little feelings hurt at the idea of KH3 doing something worse than KH2 so they attack the anti-floaty crowd telling them they aren't allowed to compare KH3 to KH2 or just calling them toxic. ProdigyxCD is the pinnacle of fragile feelings regarding KH3. His first video on the subject he tried to invalidate the fact that the Osaka team has a floaty combat problem with KH by saying different things in BBS and DDD are also broken. Which is stupid because more broken garbage does not make basic combos less trash. And his second video on the subject (his most recent. I don't care if he made more he's a rude dumbass) he called the anti-floaty crowd toxic and that he was disappointed in our behavior. Fuck that asshole. ProdigyxCD is full of shit. I think his body if made up of 99% shit considering that is all that comes out of his mouth when he gives his opinion.
Yeah KH3 was floaty. Every move has extreme end lag and it essentially forces you into the air as much as possible. The last 1/4 of the game is literally a series of boss battles fought almost entirely in the air. You're forced to either run and use magic or spam attack and air dodge arbitrarily until you need to run away and heal, and it incentivizes using your cinematic moves because they mostly grant you a brief lull of invincibility despite their relatively ineffective use as actual attacks. Hardly any of the cinematic action prompts do substantial damage. It's just a series of getting caught in unnecessarily flashy animations until you get interrupted by far more responsive enemies. I miss KH2 combat mechanics.
@MisAnthro Pony He didn’t bring up Kingdom hearts 2 even once dude. You just don’t want to admit that the game you like could be better. (Edit) Okay apparently I can’t read.
At this point, I don't even care if the game is more fluid or as fluid as KH2, I just want it to be better than all the other Osaka Team games so far. And while thankfully it doesn't QUITE seem like the MF or Julius problems of only having one solution that consistently works... I don't know. Maybe most of the flashier comboes and finishers have invincibility frames now. I can't possibly know until it comes out.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say the combos and finishers won't have s. The demo people played showed people even taking damage during summons. During. Fucking. Summons. If Sora doesn't get s on summon attacks, I doubt they thought to give him s in many other...~ahem~ situations of command.
Hot take, but I think KH1's combat was pretty darn good. Yeah, lots of people say 'basic hack & slash', but I think the difficulty curve was in that most bosses literally had 0 hitstun, making it all about timing (also the reason why Riku and Sephiroth are so notoriously hard is because they're the only bosses that have revenge values, as revenge values do exist in this game but are very few). Combined with rolls, guards, and the tech points system, and well... pretty solid, I would say. The camera helps, too.
I came back to this video after playing KH3 and omfg... No dodge cancelling, no block cancelling, so many frames on block that it's actually punishable, and no invincibility frames on all these god damn flashy close outs. I realized I just debased myself to exactly what you said... mash X and Triangle, heal when low, and go back to mashing X and Triangle. No learning enemy patterns and telegraphs and adapting. If it wasn't for the nostalgia, I'd have put the controller down.
Exactly. So many people I know when getting into debates or analysis discussions just go "I dunno, I liked it and didn't see anything wrong. Why put that much thought into it?"
@@chunkymonkeychunky The same people that are all for "positivity" Get extremely aggressive and angry when you say something negative about a game they like. They try and shame you into thinking like them.
This discussion has always baffled me in general. How is it in any way, shape, or form a negative to critique and analyze a games' systems? If anything, it shows that you give a shit. If you just praise every single aspect of a project without question, none of your statements actually have any meaning to them at all. In the case of the KH series I find this particularly confusing. I mean KH2 is a game with a huge, incredibly dedicated fanbase. Not to mention the fact that this fanbase is entirely capable of articulating and conveying every strength of KH2's design and gameplay. Should that fact not show that there is at least a modicum of substance to these claims, even if you yourself don't care enough to actually think about game feel, design, etc.? Objectively, I mean. Oh and regarding your analysis - I wholeheartedly agree. EDIT: Also, holy shit this comment section is fascinating!
This was a very well written and well spoken video. I truly feel that game developers can benefit by watching videos on TH-cam such as these as they're some of the best to help out the community. Stellar job, man.
This helps me understand why the combat in KH3 felt a little "off" to me, and my mind kept going back to KH2. Wasn't sure why until watching this. Just makes me realize how impressive KH2 still is.
This is why I say that Re:Coded is BBS done right, and why I think that Re:Coded is one of the most fun games to play in the series. Attacks and other animations are fast and responsive, basic attacks can be chained into commands and vice versa allowing for combos to be extended and varied, ground-based commands can be used in midair to bring you immediately back down to the ground, and every attack feels like it's viable and can be used to create your own unique playstyle. It's all of the good parts about the Command Deck system without any of the bs that make the Osaka games monotonous by forcing the player into picking 3 or 4 commands that can cheese the game into actually being playable (especially where boss fights are concerned).
Bizkit, I notice a staggering resemblance to the Core-A Gaming channel's own series regarding various topics on fighting games, and I want to say that your interpretation of the topic + the style you have adopted makes it incredibly clear on what you are trying to convey. Your editing was sharp and clean, much unlike Air Slide, and made your points clear through visuals and strong, assertive points. Looking forward to seeing a followup of some sort once you get your hands on the international version of KH3. Great content!
That's actually an interesting way to appeal to a wider audience. Making the game approachable on lower difficulties while putting enough effort into the actual gameplay and underlying systems that more hardcore players have something to appreciate on higher difficulties, as opposed to only making the enemies hit harder and tank more damage, thus giving both parties something to enjoy. Much better than striving to make something bland and inoffensive to the point that it simultaneously appeals to everyone and no one.
I'm not sure this will affect me as much as it'll affect Bl00dyBizkitz. But i understand where he comes from, and it's a place full of good intentions. We are both fans that just want a good game that feels good to play. He isn't here to spit on the next upcoming installment of a beloved serie, but on the contrary, this is as "fan" as a fan gets, or at least should. Mindless fanatism shouldn't be viewed in a good light. There is ALWAYS room for improvement in any game, even the best (and upcoming) ones, and KH3 is no exception. Even KH2 isn't, but it's a finished game, released game. People that are dismissive simply because "it doesn't matter durrrrr!!!" are, if not a downright threat to good game making and intellectual honesty, at the very least very irritating and shortsighted to stay polite, and of questionable intelligence to be less polite. If you don't want to care about it, then don't care, but you should do what you do best with this video aswell: not care. If you are gonna get on his back for suggesting improvements and voicing complaints/concerns, just stop. Yeah i'll play KH3. Yeah i'll probably enjoy it. Yeah the issue addressed might not bother me. But what's the harm in wanting and getting an EVEN BETTER GAME? Besides, you'd be surprised how much those little details can change. It's the difference between "yeah, this feel like an average hack and slash/ARPG" and "damn, this is so satisfying to play!".
@@blakelyready5980 What's wrong with more of them? After all, KH1 had the lower end lag and more air combos than KH2 did. KH2 is the one that changed the script, but people treat it like it's the gold standard. Aerial combos used to be the preference in KH1 because you could get through them faster than ground combos. KH2 broke that up, so that's the one that needs to be defended. Kh3 simply improved the combat standard that KH2 set. It's literally just an improved version of the same combat system. The only ones that disagree are those blinded by nostalgia and the cringe sweatlords that try to turn the series into a fighting game when it isn't.
I think another issue is that people hear "poor gameplay design" and interpret it as someone saying the game isn't fun at all. I had fun playing through BBS and 0.2 and DDD, but the gameplay is still booty. It doesn't make it not a fun game, it makes it so that trying to dive deep into the mechanics and master them isn't satisfying. KH2 has so much replayability because of the depth of its combat. It's the same reason people who play competitive pokemon don't like Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee. The depth in the gameplay isn't there so there's not as much replayability.
That's your opinion not everyone is going to ignore bad gameplay and say it's still good. Lots of games have good story out there why would you settle for bad gameplay when you can play a game with both a good story and gameplay.
I'm super late to this discussion but I wanted to say that this month I started a full franchise marathon in my free time for my girlfriend, who just likes watching me play games, so I figure that perhaps the introspection of an adult who has 0 nostalgia for KH might be interesting. Playing in release order on the highest difficulty each time absolutely blind. I found this video because after beating BBS and starting DDD something just isn't hitting for me with these games and I couldn't place exactly why. But you hit the nail on the head exactly
@@goodguytongue7159 The kind of gamer that ruins every game experience using cheats and codes, glitching the whole thing up just to finish the game in less then 20 seconds and even basically mocking at game developers by saying "Your game is too easy and it sucks".
As a person who plays on Standard, I can say agree with what you said about my play style. Button mash and heal. Button mash and heal. However, even I noticed that there was something in the gameplay in BBS and KH3 that just didn’t live up to the gold standard of KH2. I never was able to pinpoint what it was, but I think you just did. So, thanks.
People are defensive about this because they feel like you’re attacking something they’ve put all their hope into. They are upset because they feel powerless to change anything.
Also, why is nobody addressing the keyblade wielders' overreliance on their keyblades? There are only two games in the series that even remotely addressed that if for whatever reason, a keyblade wielder is stripped of his ability to use his keyblade, he's toast unless he relies on others and/or uses magic
Why do people object to looking at fighting games for good combat design? Those games are played exclusively for their combat. Analyzing them can give insight to what makes a combat feel satisfying. Even when making a game from a different genre, you can try to copy the fundamental aspects of a fighting game and replicate them in your genre.
As a fellow FGC member I have to agree with you, whether you end up reading this or not: goddamn are animations hard to cancel in the Osaka Team games. DDD doesn't seem to have as many animation issues as these other games had (at least in my personal run in the PS4), mostly because you can cancel the stuff more often and Balloonra is a fire-and-forget godsend that helps you do whatever you want while dealing high damage. My main problem with the game is that BOSSES NEVER TAKE ANY HITSTUN AND IT BOTHERS ME TO NO END. I always felt like I had to cheese out the bosses, and that was only exacerbated by the Drop gauge and the Command cooldowns. When I got into young Xehanort, I had the most fun ever in the game, because he took hitstun - quite a hefty amount of it, actually; and it was so cool to experiment with all the ways I could extend a combo. Grounded Sliding Sidewinder (the attack after slide) worked wonders as a combo starter, it's possible to combo out of *Blizzara* of all things, and there was so much cool shit to do that I really didn't even mind when I was killed and stuff because I didn't feel any need or want for a campy, safe strategy. Which is more than I have to say about _Super_ Armored Ventus
I'm terrible at kh games, can barely stomach the first half of kh2 on proud, but in a vacuum even I had similar concerns when watching the trailers. I hate pressing a button and seeing my character enter their own world for a few seconds, ignoring any other button I want to press. It's not even just about dealing with higher difficulties or balancing the game in a competitive sense, it's just more fun when you feel in control.
On the flipside, calling someone a "blind rabid fanboy who can't take criticism" when he/she presents a logical counterargument to you is also not a counterargument in itself.
I used to think people like BB were being nitpicky, but then I actually analyzed kh2fm's gameplay and see why it's so fun and now I really want kh3 to have the same kind of quick and satisfying combat as kh2fm. I believe That kh2fm is the best in terms of gameplay and just the most solid game overall. Minus some story things like the Disney worlds not really being important to the plot, or not really feeling important But i agree pretty much 100% with you BB. Excellent video and you're my fav speedrunner. Besides Vinesauce Vinny with his "speedruns" of zelda and monkey ball games
Even though I have never played any of the Kingdom Hearts games at all, I completely understand where you are coming from when it comes to gameplay changes. This whole video gives me an eerily similiar vibe towards how I feel about the changes that were made to Bayonetta 2 compared to part 1 and how many people don't seem to notice it and that I'm just being a huge nitpicker. High risk/high reward gameplay is definitely one of the best aspects of action combo gameplay, whether its Bayo or Kingdom Hearts, and now I feel like I should play the KH series soon so I can see what makes that series special to everyone.
Imagine going to your favorite restaurant, ordering your favorite dish, but this time, the chef hops on your table, squats down, and lays coils all over it. That's what they did to Kingdom Hearts. They shit all over it, if you need a clearer explanation.
I think to really drive the point home you should’ve talked about/shown footage of people fighting the data organization members with restrictions (ex. only using the basic keyblade combos, no abilities, items, etc.) and compared it to how it’s impossible to do that in Osaka Team KH games
You reignited my passion for making videos. Don't know if you'll see this comment but been a fan of your for a while man. And honestly I've said a lot of similar things about KH2 to some friends but it kinda fell on deaf ears to some of them. I remember playing KH2 and DMC3 around the same time back in the day and I was like these are really expressive but when I tried out BBS I was like it feels so... Slow and my keyblade never felt like it had weight to it. But keep up the great work man!
Thank you for this interesting analysis. You have put into words and disected an issue that I had being sensing but couldn't explain myself. BBS felt slower to me but it wasn't that much of a deal (I don't do speedruns like you but i have played all of the games in the highest difficulty), but playing KH3 I have felt many many times that while fighting I couldn't control or predict the direction of Sora's attacks, specially during combo finishes. This never happened to me in KH2, and after some hours playing it was very satisfying to feel such a level of control even while executing complex combos.
Thank you for this video. Without it, I would never be able to place exactly why the combat in KH3 annoyed and pissed me off in some places. Great video.
Seeing the fighting game comparison is fitting, cause I sorta view KH2FM as the Super Smash Bros. Melee of the franchise. Both are highly regarded second entries of their respective franchises that continue to have loyal followings who openly take issue with the combat in the games that have released since.
I noticed that myself in the gameplay I saw of Arendelle a few months back (when they showed the Sora vs. Aqua battle). The combos looked snappier to my eye and it looked like Sora was able to get to the ground more rapidly.
I feel KH3's Combat, particularly after the updates, DID at least try and fix the problems not by removing the floatiness problem entirely but by mitigating the risks of being Midair. You still want to be on the ground at points, but Aerial combat is much more balanced since many of the options you lost in older games-- Blocking and dodging-- are now readily available in the air, and made far better than what 0.2 attempted. Your combos are also the same on ground and air with the exception of the basic combo finishers. Airstep in particular helps IMMENSELY for Aerial control and Gapclosing, allowing for more interesting Aerial combat scenarios than what 0.2 offered. The trade off becomes the fact that Aerial dodges and blocks have a bit more endlag, but the fact you HAVE those options rewards smarter play, especially in Critical mode where perfect blocks allow for more damage. This becomes apparent in the Remind Superbosses, which heavily incentivize this and often punish grounded dodge spam. The ReMind update also removed a huge gripe from the game; Combo finishers can now be cancelled faster. Base Game allowed you to cancel basic combos into a dodge, but for some reason finishers were animation-locked. Fixing that, alongside adding faster attack modifiers, made the clunky-ish base game combat feel much smoother, even as far as being as smooth as KH2's combat. Also, the New combo finisher made using the finisher actually fucking viable for base-form. What a concept. But Base game, especially Pre-Patch KH3? Yeah, screw that.
This is so insanely true, I'm playing kh bbs for the first time and the animations do not flow at all, using a finisher in the air while juggling an enemy it'll put me down on the ground as ventus.....very frustrating. I've been using command modes to just juggle enemies like I would normally in an air combo. And on top of that, the combos are very slow unless in a command mode. Using short hop doesn't even work, the animation MUST finish before you hit the ground, frustrating, but not game breaking.
In a way, kh3 did respond to this problem. However instead of making the combat tight, they made the whole game easy to make floaty combat work. Did you all try the singular post game boss? I beat him at lvl 54 with base game gear.
The super-bosses are what make the KH games truly spectacular in my opinion and with BBS, 3D and FP the super fights were not fun because of the mechanics. I never felt like I was actually learning the boss strategy. With LW, I've now memorised every way to counter his abilities and when in his attacks to dodge and counter to follow up with a combo to deal the maximum damage before the revenge frame kicks in. With the other games there was no reason to learn those strategies, because their was usually only one opening and everything else was dodged the exact same way. Basically when you compare the best super-boss (Lingering Will) to the worst (Mysterious Figure) their really is no competition between the two and I'm worried that the super-bosses and even some of the main bosses in 3 will lean more towards the latter than the former. For casual play (which I will be doing for my first play through of 3) I don't see this being an huge issue but when I want to explore all the harder stuff in the game I see it demolishing my interest in continuing. I really want KH3 to be everything we've been waiting for and I hope that the new trailer footage is just some recycled stuff for the old model but I'm still concerend
This is fantastic. I personally don’t mind floaty gameplay, but definitely prefer the tighter because of all the points you bring up. I totally get frustrated with the floaty combat due to the lack of i-frames and how some finishers are too flashy with bombastic animations-essentially cutscenes. That said, because I enjoy the story and characters, I don’t mind suffering through those faults of the floaty combat. I don’t think any game has or could live up to how perfect KH2’s combat is.
So we've gone from simple, lovable story and awkward but usable combat, to overly complex story and exquisite combat, and now to overdrawn out mess of a story and overdrawn out laggy combat. The fuck did I wait all this time for? Good thing I didn't buy the game. Fuck that noise. Maybe if it goes on sale for like $20
not a fighting game person, but playing BBS was absolutely one of the most frustrating things I'd done in a long time, and I'd just finished playing chain of memories on ps4. Thanks for explaining the weird feeling I kept getting while trying to deal with things in that game otl. KH3's cinematic scenes are half of why I didn't use the didney rides and the olympus special pegasus attack just straight up blinded me half the time. The triangle button got super cluttered REAL fast. fortunately, I think they did better on the literal aerial combat part, since when combined w glide you basically can use your ground moves in the air it feels like, and during keyblade transformations you're fully immune to things. Which,,,, I exploited,,, a whole lot whenever i got caught in an enemy combo otl
Im currently replaying the 1st game after years and forgot how much the camera can screw you over. I found myself backed into corners unable to see shit and hoping whatever attack i unleashed hit the target i was aiming for. The autolock can screw you over, too. I'm constantly reminded why i never replayed KH1, but loved replaying 2
The people who complain about the points Bl00dy's making here have no concept of how action games like Devil May Cry 1, 3, and 4, Wonderful 101, God Hand, Anarchy Reigns/ Max Anarchy, Metal Gear Rising: Revenagnce, or either of the Bayonetta games work, nor any other high quality action game worth its salt, and no concept of why they feel so good and fun to play. Maybe they've just never touched a good action game other than KH2, so they don't understand the distinction. You keep on telling them, Bl00dyBizkitz; those of us who give a shit about game feel and mechanics understand your point. In the future, I'd compare Kingdom Hearts 2 and beyond against games in the 'character action'/ 'spectacle fighter' subgenre of action games, not fighting games, as they're a closer parallel and thus make your point for you a lot easier, but it's alright if you're not too familiar with those franchises. No idea if you play those or not. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, look up Rudicorn's "What is the Character Action Genre?" video. It gives a good rundown of what I'm describing and it intuitively expands on Bl00dy's points in this video, even though it's completely unrelated. Frame data, invincibility frames, animation canceling, the option to cancel a combo string early in general, and so on are all very important to defining the difference between a 'good, serviceable' action game (including an action RPG like Kingdom Hearts) and a great one like those I namedropped above, as well as KH2, but not any other game in the franchise, even if Birth By Sleep is mechanically fun in its own, lesser way. To see a good example of the risk vs. reward of air combat that Bl00dy's discussing, look up【DMC4SE】Vergil Combo Mad - Endless Power by TensaZangetsx. Aqua in 0.2 'A Fragmentary Passage' feels like the polar opposite of everything Vergil does in that video.
Absolutely this. I have so much fun playing critical mode normally, and the whenever I get to a boss it's suddenly just dodge until I can get a single hit in. It's so lame
Thanks for this video Bl00dy. I'm glad you still are adamant on this and have the intelligence to tell it like it is. This is THE hill to die on. It's not about "only speedrunners care" it's about it being downright broken to respond. Even in 60FPS bad balance is bad and it's a problem for everyone to play. It makes you fail more miss more and die more in game. For a unfair disadvantage.
I'm far from a hardcore player. As a kid I probably played KH1 & 2 on either easy or standard, I don't remember specifically since it was so long ago. But when I first picked up KH2FM, playing KH2 for the first time in years, I was intrigued by critical mode seeing as it gave extra abilities from the start, so on a whim decided to try it. I literally almost never choose to play on the hardest difficulty and found KH2FM on critical to be a big struggle, but bar a few sections that I just plain didn't enjoy, it never felt like it was frustratingly difficult because the deaths never felt like "bullshit!" moments where there was nothing I could have done better or that I was being punished for simply playing the game. I went into BBSFM and picked critical mode again, thinking I'd have the same experience. I was mistaken. Still haven't to this day finished that game and doubt I ever will, admittedly partially because I absolutely detest the command deck style of gameplay. KH3 seems to have tried to eliminate the problemswhen choosing a higher difficulty not by fixing the actual issue, but by removing the challenge almost entirely excluding an extremely frustrating final boss fight where an entire section of the fight is aerial combat exclusively. It does this by giving you nearly endless free power moves that either include long invincibility frames or which make it extremely easy to avoid enemy attacks, or in the case of magic, just do huge amounts of damage to pretty much every enemy on screen. So the only way to have any sort of challenge is to not use these options at all, which is both boring as hell, and unbelievably frustrating because it's like "well what the fuck else am I supposed to do?" If a player on my level can only be challenged by intentionally not using half of the combat mechanics, there's a problem. If a player like Bl00dy can only avoid frustrating enemies by playing defensively and spamming magic that's a problem. It's not just the hardcore players that are missing out here by any stretch of the imagination.
Saying the combat don't matter when it's gameplay is saying gameplay doesn't matter. True gamers and not dumb people know that the entire game is the gameplay and are suggesting it stays bad. Do you not want you game to get better.
DMC is a good example of risk and reward with jumping, but rewards jumping heavily with giving you a lot of options to maneuver through the air, and you even have a dive kick that has a crap ton of priority and is good for finishing combos or escaping.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
after playing kh3... I miss kh2 combat so much. I agree with you kh2 had a much better sense of control with combat.
I still had fun in kh3 but thats because there is just tons of different ways of dishing out damage .
Pretty much this. 3 was. Fun because it was constantly so flashy. 2's system was fun because it was very solid and legit.
3 is .. Solid and legit. It's just extremely disappointing.
KH2 was was like doing a math test while KH3 was like drawing a picture
Sessmaru Kusanagi Gaming extremely disappointing is a big stretch there lol chill
@@pn2294 Even KH1 and KH Re:Com, of all games, had more satisfying air combos. In fact, in the latter, while air combos may not do as much damage as ground combos, they do have a shorter amount of time to execute, which means you can kill heartless before they break your cards in the middle of your combo
(Not remind) Kh3 secret boss vs (not final mix) kh2 secret boss, I say kh2 is better because it's fun and the combat is better, kh3 the heartless name idk he's annoying because you attack to slow, because I really like kh2 combat because its fun
The final argument posed by this video - "If KH2 can provide a positive experience for hardcore and casual fans alike, why can't 3?" is sooooooooooooooo sososo important. So important.
People gloss over this so much! KH2 was brilliant because its fluid combos made the game open up at the high-end but also feel every bit as flashy as 0.2 and KH3. It sacrificed none of the flash and gave us all the functionality we could dream of resulting in a game that made literally everyone happy (gameplay wise).
I don't understand why people lobby so hard against the combat being designed more tightly when accomplishing this would only add more depth and polish to elevate the game one step closer to being a total masterpiece. It wouldn't even compromise the flash and pizazz you've gotten used to with BBS, because at worst you wouldn't even notice the difference and at best you're able to play it on standard and come back to play on critical mode and find that there was so much more to the game you previously played before. It's a win-win on every account!
Agreed, as he mentioned, there's a line between an action that floats(Aerial Finish) and generalized "floaty" combat, and alongside the animations being god awful long, I think a point thats been missed is that Osaka Combos lack... focus, if you look at KH1 or 2 Sora's basic air and ground combos, you'll notice that every action tends to overlap as a centered strike zone, with combo-mods having motions more suited to dragging or shoving(Explosion, Magnet Splash), Osaka Combos tend to look and feel more like you're just flailing blindly forward, which combined with the wretched speed, leaves you whiffing and getting counter-hit a lot
Most people aren't lobbying hard against the idea of the combat being better. We're lobbying hard about everyone calling the game shit because of what it currently is.
@@GrammerPancreas Most people that actually have an argument against floaty combat arent calling the game shit. Theyre calling the game dissappointing, because it is.
yup. i loved kh2, played on proud because it was arguably more challenging that critical due to not getting front loaded skills making early game force the basics on you before you get better defensive options. Played kh3 on proud mode... died twice, once to my first pirate encounter being the boss ship when i was fresh out of port royal, and it 2 shot me, and once from my own mistake in an early fight. after that, no challenge until end game. Might try 0exp proud and see if its any better, but will likely feel terrible to play due to the odds i will never want to combo outside of 1 on 1 fights.
I would argue that KH2 felt more flashy than KH3 and it's for one simple reason:
In Kingdom Hearts 2, outside of most reaction commands, when something cool happens in combat, it's because I know that it's me who made it happen.
In Kingdom Hearts 3, however, I don't feel like I'm doing anything when I kill enemies. I don't feel special, I don't feel good, I feel like I was patted on the back for being able to press X and use attractions that require me to press X.
After beating KH3 today I fully agree that the floaty combat hurts gameplay, in the final battle against Xehanort your forced to be in the air and can’t even finish combos or else you eat a million attacks you have to hit then dash constantly or abuse the op magic
TheJblu I died because of floaty combat. I couldn’t tell his attacks were combo finishers so i can Arial Recover and heal or more combo hit so I don’t use arial recover while he’s whaling on me. I’m glad we can guard and use items on air but there’s some enemies that doesn’t stop attack you
i killed him just fine without having to use any magic, the games difficulty just isnt there
the game wasnt really difficult at all, proud mode felt like normal mode for most games
@@theredevil47
Agreed. Way too easy.
@@buddasteedy3937 I will enjoyed my time, it's definitely my favorite KH game but they need to add critical mode
Can we talk about how right you were?
It's really depressing, but he was *very* right in this video.
@Groisu The combat is not balanced so a higher difficulty just means what bloody said about KH bbs misterious figure and KH 0.2, you will only use a few attacks and avoid most of the time, leaving you feel limited and frustrated rather than challenged. I don't think there's a fix to KH3, unfortunately.
@MisAnthro Pony kh3 was not perfectly fine xD
@MisAnthro Pony no
I haven’t played kh3 yet so no spoilers please but is there at least a zero exp ability so I can’t make the game challenging for myself when I do play it?
When you ride a bike, drive a car, or do pretty much anything involving motorskills, the most joy you have with those things is when you completely forget about them. When the vehicle is so responsive to what you do that it feels like it's a part of you and your brain can more or less ignore that it's even there.
This is the design philosophy that went into KH2. Sora being badass felt like you being badass because you had perfect control over him. Sora getting hit felt like you getting hit.
Osaka team gameplay?
"NOTICE ME!"
I have no idea what you guys are talking about I found the combat dreadfully unsatsfying .
@@mistertagomago7974 The simple version is the game is unsatisfying because there's no space for spontaneity or unpredictability anymore.
Your attacks are so sluggish and the enemies are so slippery that if you beat them it's either because you were overleveled and arbitrarily overwhelmed them or refused to treat the scenario as an action game at all: you scrubbed your way to victory with cheap tactics.
What people want from a game is the same thing they want from life: unpredictability.
When you're highly skilled at something -- even something completely sedentary, like writing -- it's like there's two yous going on. One you playing the game and another you watching the first you play the game. Unexpected things happen and you get a little anxious because your conscious mind can't process things fast enough to counter the threat. But by the time you even know what's happened, this mysterious other you who is at once in your control and yet non in your control, like you're riding a horse or something, has already reacted to and superseded the problem.
And every time one of these splitsecond brushes with failure/death happens, you get a rush of exhilaration.
The other you is there, but there's always the fear that they he'll fall asleep and won't intervene.
As you continue to improve, the thrill dies down and you just accept that your skills don't really belong to your conscious mind and that you don't really know or control anything at all until you consciously remember it.
That's the feeling of 身勝手の極意. Roxas himself is an allegory for this phenomenon. He represents Sora's higher self; the mediator between his conscious and unconscious being, but at the same time, Roxas -- in his roles as Ventus, I.E spirit -- can't discern anything without the light of Sora's awareness. The two need each other.
Where Sora is absent, Vanitas encroaches and the contents of the unconscious become inter-contaminated, as expressed by his desire to "become one" with Ventus. Like the imagery of a psychedelic trip or schizophrenia.
...Shit... That was orders of magnitude more complicated that what I started with!
Well anyway, the point is that Osaka team's gameplay completely disintegrates this feeling of stakes and unpredictability by breaking down this complex space of threats and opportunities that the player has to navigate. You want to feel in control and that means reducing the amount of time between an input and a response as possible. But at the same time, the extent to which an experience is outside your control is the extent to which it really feels alive to you.
Randomized retaliations isn't the answer to this because it's so unpredictable the other way that risks of dealing with are eclipsed by the rewards of circumventing it; it encroaches upon the player's ability to respond to the situation.
The happy medium is reached when the controls are tight, the enemy is predictable, but the pattern of their predictability is complex and difficult to master. And that's just Lingering Will in a nutshell.
Sir, I applause your intelligence..
@@lavaxtris If that's what you think of what I have to say, then you shouldn't have any difficulty in coming up with a counterargument.
Or don't you have one?
@@lavaxtris To convince me that my comments are as autistic as you assert.
Otherwise you look rather spasmodic yourself. Not to mention hypocritical.
Fighting games and action games aren't as vastly different as some people make them out to be, one of the most acclaimed action games, Devil May Cry 3 was directed by a guy who was a lead designer/director on several classic 90s fighting games like Street Fighter Alpha, the people making these arguments don't know much about action games or fighting games
Coming from a Smash Bros fan, I can completely understand.
Fighting games are a type of action game. Action games can be considered reflex challenges, or primarily so. But fighting games are of a smaller scope which is fine to specialize in one on one combat.
Dude I 100% agree. A silly example is I was playing FighterZ with my brother as his house for a whole weekend, went home and booted up bayonetta 1 and I understood it a lot better just from my time with a different
2D
Fighting game
I love when people are like "fighting games and action RPGs are so different why do people compare them"
Dude dmc4 is just street fighter in an open world
Knave Da Great Street Fighter combos never get that in depth, it's more like 3D Melty Blood than Street Fighter
It's weird how people don't want to have full control of their character just because it's an ARPG. Great video!
i know what you mean one thing i hate the most in any game is that my characters feels unresponsive period but you have to remember that many of the people that will buy this game will be weeboo, that like to be more flashy and cool than to have a solid gameplay, and this is the mentality of many anime fan in general since this type of game are cater to them
It’s not that people don’t want to have full control of their character. It’s just that this person is telling us that the game we’ve been waiting so long for will be bad. People are lashing out because the last thing they want is to be disappointed. I also understand where people like the guy from the video are coming from. They want the game to be better. They probably believe that if enough people begin to care about these problems, then maybe the Osaka team will listen. However, we do not have a direct voice. This makes us, the fans, feel powerless in changing the outcome of the game. All this video has done is make me feel sad. I hope that the game isn’t bad. I’ve been waiting too long for that.
Sablen 1 I checked out gameplay leaks. My hopes are even lower
@@sablen1319 And yet, if we stop denying and start accepting it, if everyone who turns a deaf ear to these problems actually points them out, maybe they might actually change something.
@@sablen1319 you're hoping that the game is not bad but this guy is literally telling you right now that the game will be bad and that you should stop denying it
you will have a greater enjoyment of the game if you accept that is not gonna be a masterpiece and lower your expectations
Osaka games doesn't make you *feel* like Sora.
I love dunkey comments
I thought keyblade wielders were supposed to develop godlike powers once they reached a certain point in their power. Osaka games make them look like they're barely any more powerful than normals
Gotta love how attacked this fandom can feel when someone addresses legitimate issues based on factual evidence and a faulty track record of team osaka. These are important flaws that need to be spoken about, we’ve waited for this game for many years, that doesn’t mean we should just accept whatever is given to us, if anything we should expect for it to be great and not have the same restrictive feelings that 0.2 had. Stop being butthurt idiots and learn to understand constructive criticism and expect better from the developers that you support. And this is coming from a LIFETIME kingdom hearts fan who already pre ordered KH3. It’s natural to have concerns, it’s not being cynical or toxic it’s being realistic and rightfully critical of something that seemingly isn’t meeting expectations, and yes, those criticisms SHOULD be made before the games release because it gives developers time to FIX the issues before they put it out.
At least BBS and DDD you could always rely upon probably the most scrub strategy of all time: *All Heal Commands*
@@torondin I'm sorry, I believe you spelt "the same command over and over again" incorrectly. All I know is Thunder Surge and Balloonga.
I know this is 3 years late, but brah I’m saying, the fanbase is defending this shit with their life!! They will attack you if you don’t think kh3 and everything about it is perfect, they accept no legit criticism and now because their isn’t enough backlash we’re gonna be stuck with this going forward
@@Coldoroki Putting that aside, now that the DLC and Limit Cut are out, do you still think KH2 is better? I think after the DLC KH3 outperformed KH2. Both when it comes to controlling Sora and when it comes to boss design.
@@mitigamespro8757 I think the control still poor, sora still feels weightless and not as fluid as 2. The boss design is almost perfect if there weren't for block fail and some bosses that can get retaliated back from an invisible wall.
The, "you're just nitpicking because you want faster times when you speedrun it," argument is stupid, because in that case, every single speedrunner would be equally affected by the problem and it wouldn't end up making a difference either way with regards to speedrun times across individuals.
Even if you don't consciously notice small things like input lag and drawn-out animations when they happen, you subconsciously _feel_ it, and it feels worse. That's the problem. It's a matter of enjoyment, not competition.
@Andrew Pyle that and speedrunners exploit bugs and such that would get you to the credits screen faster, but removes some of the fun (if not most) to a casual player
@Andrew Pyle It's not just about speed. People are not asking for lightning fast attacks. Just a more satisfying speed as opposed to the combat animations we've got in KH the last ca. 10 years.
Meh. I've never had a problem. *shrugs*
KH diehards will find any excuse to invalidate criticism. The dumbest I've heard was them getting mad at people for the audacity that people skip cutscenes they've seen before because it ruins the experience of KHs dumb story.
@Andrew Pyle You dont get it at all. They don't care how fast it takes, its about how enjoyable the combat is.
This was a good video. To be honest, especially on Reddit (where the closer to release you get the more defensive people get), it feels as if the term "floaty" has turned into a meme: most would consider anyone using the word as a sheep who's just repeating what their heard others say. The issue, as you said, isn't just the floatiness of the combat: it's how slow combos are and how they keep putting you in danger. I'm planning to play KH3 on Standard the first time, just in case there's some dumb boss that would prevent me from playing through the game, but even then I care *immensely* about combos and how they feel. I'm going to be pressing X to see those animations for 30+ hours on my playthrough, they better be satisfying and fast. I want to feel like I am controlling the game, not the game controlling me.
I wouldn't consider 0.2 as a game with a bad combat system (there's much worse out there), but it *IS* heavily flawed in a way that may ruin the fun of higher difficulties. I want another Kingdom Hearts game where it feels like I'm controlling Sora, if I die it's my fault, if I win it's because I was able to read and counter the enemy. While anyone saying the combat system is a disaster is straight up lying, so is anybody who straight up worships it as a flawless masterpiece that shouldn't be improved.
Thanks for the food for thought, I truly do hope they refined the combat system as well as they could (especially in these 2 months after the game went golden).
It definitely a meme, but out of context and even in, this scenario is a bit silly. Although most people do acknowledge the problem stated by BB and others. old.reddit.com/r/KingdomHearts/comments/ac04g8/media_the_consequences_of_floaty_combat_in/ed4ajnc/
5kyLegend same as well, if it's the same 3-hit combo for 3, I will be extremely disappointed.
That comment about Reddit wasn't very fair. I saw the post about this video and people do agree with BB.
KH's sub is one of the worst sub on Reddit. You can't literally express an unpopular opinion without getting bashed and downvoted by blind fans who think the game is flawless. Of course there are some exceptions, but that's the general trend imo.
EDIT: typo
@@jareddrake8656 I loved following the subreddit, but the closer we get to KH3's release, the worse it gets. Surprisingly, this video's reception was more positive than I expected. The issue is that outside of this, it's very hard to even go with the assumption that KH3 won't be flawless in every regard. I've seen many, many general worries and criticisms downvoted, criticized or hell, even insulted, despite the usual excuse being "so far we've seen older builds", which does not hold up anymore that well, given the recent leaks that give us actual release game footage to back up claims with (not going into leaks for spoiler reasons, of course).
I like places where Kingdom Hearts fans can discuss. I hate where everyone is forced into blind fanboyism (on the subreddit, I've even seen many agree that if you don't adore everything about KH3 you're not a true fan, which is... A very bad way to think.)
*sees video length* i see what u did there xD
I swear he did it on purpose.
Explain
@@Rivexd 13 07
13 darkness 7 lights
@@hunterz25 but its only 13:06
I play kingdom hearts casually and I was able to feel a difference between the two games, I just couldn't put my finger on what it was till I randomly found this video on my recommended list.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on KH3 now because they didn't change shit
kh2 is the melee of kh games
This is facts man
That's a pretty damn good alegory.
Sadly kh3 is looking like smash4
Except it's fun.
I'm hoping 3 is like smash ultimate
The real tragedy is that Mitsunori Takahashi, who is responsible for making KH2’s combat so intricate, was appointed to work on FF7R. Nomura expressed that he wanted certain devs from KH2 to help but were split working on FFXV for Business Division 2. Tai Yasue who has been working on all the handheld titles (specifically BBS/DDD) is co-directing and presumably laying out the battle concepts. Seeing how Osaka/BD3 has never formally worked on a mainline console ported title aside from 0.2, I never once expected them to emulate the feelings of KH2. I’m glad you’re bringing this video up prior to release since expectations are definitely inflated. Though most core fans won’t really see it this way and still enjoy the game for what it is. We always have KH4 to improve upon the shortcomings as a positive.
So sad...
Kingdom Hearts 4? PFFFFFFFF. See you in 20 more years (although I guess it'll depend on sales for 3). At least FF7 Remake is looking to be fast and fluid. Mitsunori Takahashi knows what's up
The game hasn't even fucking come out yet. Jesus christ. Let it release before you be so negative about it
@@fazeamber9123 Omg what? What's your fucking problem? You're on a fucking video discussing the combat gameplay of KH3. What's your problem with people expressing their opinion of what we've seen of the game thusfar? A lot of people like to act like you can't get anything out of gameplay trailers because you gotta *feel* it. Gtfoh with that bullshit. A lot of people can pick up on these details and if we relay this feedback back to Square it's all to our collective benefit. We don't need to sing every single one of this video game series' entries praises. KH is to us as much our baby as it is to Square so of course we try to take care of it, so why do you guys need to interfere? Nobody's saying the game is shit. We're just arguing about how to improve it. How is that an issue?
@@dominokos Look at how triggered you are. Yikes, man. That's embarrassing. First, I want addressing the creator of the video. I was addressing the person who left the comment. There is no "we" involved here. As the creator of the video said, I am doing all I can do: hope for the best. That being said, you cannot make gameplay judgements based on what we have. The original commentor was acting as if the game has already failed. They even went so far as to reference the next kingdom hearts game. This is false. The game has not failed. It is too early to think about the next kingdom hearts game. We will not know about the third game's quality until it is actually released. And yes. You do need to play it, in order to judge it. You cannot judge game PLAY without playing a game. Bloody bizkitz has had the privilege to do so
Why can’t most fans understand this?
yeah, it really frustrates me when people look at pro kh players or speed runners and write them off for understanding the game to a mechanical level. Like of course someone who spends more time understanding the game is going to know what flaws the game has and what can be improved upon. I just don't understand kh fans sometimes
I think the problem is that there are a lot of casual fans who will only look at the game on standard difficulty. In doing so, they don't realize how amplified these things become on proud/crit mode and just wrote it off as a difficulty spike rather than the issues that they are.
These are also the same people who don't bother to learn game mechanics and believe they should be able to get through the game button mashing and looking cool, and also that the right controls might impact how cool they look.
Too busy looking at Disney to care.
Most understand, they just don't care. Which is fine.
I understand. I just don’t care as much.
Although I do personally believe Square Enix should take note of this. As much as I enjoyed games like Birth by Sleep and Dream Drop Distance, I won’t deny that I preferred KH2 in terms of gameplay. But even then, It’s not like KH3 will be ruined if it’s not as good or better than KH2.
i'm also worried about is player downtime, rather, how much of the game i'm not playing versus how much i am. KH1 got this beautifully where outside of cutscenes you were always playing the game, barring summoning animations. In KH2 you had reaction commands on top of that. These unlocked flashy attacks that usually didn't take too long, would do a lot of damage or gain you an upper hand in some fashion. In addition many are entirely optional.
i'm worried that KH3 will overdevelop flashy combos where the best way to take out enemies will be akin to watching flashy cinematics play out rather than a test of player skill
lol, you were right.
I almost never use Attractions and team attacks for this reason. Maybe once in a while to switch up the gameplay if it's one of the good ones. But goofy bombard? donald flare/meteor? magic carouselle? fucking pirate ship!?
Pirate ship has to be the single most stupid thing in KH3... I think I used it 4 times, one to see, and the rest by accident.
This is literally what happened.. -sigh-
@@mangomariel: pirate ship sucks yeah, i remember disliking that too, i tend to not use attractions at all, and if i do i just go into the finisher instantly to get it over with
i use team commands since they do decent damage
@@SessmaruKusanagiGaming: well, the game is still fun, despite what could've been. instead of being disappointed this isn't the next KH2 but better i'm just going to enjoy it for what it is; a good and for the most part, well-designed action RPG. -which i still need to get back to-
@@dmas7749 Yeah, but the game is so easy. So decent damage for me doesn't have any meaning xD
Good thing it was hard in the end tho.
Reading the comments section In here is immensely frustrating. How hard is it for people to take a step back and try and understand the point being made here instead of immediately jumping to defensive things like
"Well I like it so who cares."
Or
"It doesnt matter kingdom hearts isnt about the combat." Or just attacking people.
This is absurd.
I guarentee you they either didn't pay attention to the whole video or are kids, most toxic comments are from kids imo lol
If Kingdom Hearts isn't about the combat, then is it about the "story?"
Cause I'd place all my chips on the former. At least the KH2 gameplay was great.
Dolphinboi KH was always about the combat, no one really gave a fuck about the convoluted shonen-esque story tbh. KH2 did excel in both gameplay and story though, it has one of the best prologues in gaming I've ever seen.
PerrySport the story is pretty bad though. Everything after the first game just muddled up the entire plot to seem smart when it’s not. The combat was its saving grace and that’s been bad ever since 2 so unless square gets their shit together there’s no saving KH.
A very well written, well informed and well edited video. Great job!
you know ever since I join the kh reddit last year i keep hearing the term floaty but kept disregarding it glad that I watched this video cause i can now notice the differences in combat
Jman27 Joestar thank you for learning about something you don’t understand instead of bashing the video creator.
Always glad to have people with open minds around
This man saw the future. I have a ton of gripes with the battle mechanics in KH3. Its so sad because they’re all extremely easy fixes to already unnecessary elements.
Inferno is a budget Lingering Will with an endless dumb combo if you don't reprisal a certain move.
I hate that boss.
@MisAnthro Pony pacing in story wasnt great, no middle section of the game to pace out the story, not many keyblades, not much enemy diversity even for an osaka game just look at bbs. On top of the fact that attraction commands are just a nuisance and you cant turn it off at all throughout the game. Just few of the many problems of kh3.
@MisAnthro Pony the attraction are constant in every battle and you cant turn it off at all. The keyblades are very few and the argument of using a keyblade for stats isnt a good point as the effects of a keyblade are important especially in kh2, in kh3 only like a handful of keyblades are good such as the tangled keyblade, big hero 6 and the pirates of the carribean keyblades. Once you get the ultimate keyblade there is nothing left to kill as you can kill the secret boss with the heros origin formchange finish easily. In kh2 only 1 keyblade isn't useful and that is hidden dragon but every other keyblade has uses in many situations in the game but in kh3 that kind of flexibility with keybladrs isnt present.
@MisAnthro Pony the abilities on keyblades dont lose its effectiveness once sora learns it, they stack especially on higher difficulties such as critical mode due to the fact that you get extra abilities that other modes do not provide to you such as an extra reaction boost which when stacked with guardian soul and when sora has the ability learnd can be devastatingly powerful in many fights that have a reaction command such as the Data organization fights, lexeaus is especially easy due to having 3 reaction boosts on sora.
The keyblades in kh2 are useful due to the abilities and stats behind it except hidden dragon as that keyblade isnt good at strength nor magic even when compared to sweet memories which is a 0 strength keyblade but due to the ability of drive converter in kh2fm make leveling up summons and master form very easy on top of the fact that decisive pumpkin's combo boost is especially useful when stack with the ability and can really help with hard fights such as lingering will, sephiroth, data org again, hell even mysterious abyss can help due to blizzard boost which can help with axel as hes weak to ice but it goes even further when you also consider drive forms on top of your keyblade abilities such as final form with ultima and bound by flame with 4 full bloom + accessories, firaga loop without finisher is incredibly powerful and useful for bosses such as vexen and demyx but not the only way to beat them.
Kh3's attraction flow can be ignored however the main problem with it in kh3 is due to the frequency of how often a attraction command spawns in a fight. in kh3 each fight is a mob fight with the exception of bossfights, meaning you will be spamming magic which will lead to grand magic or a formchange which will lead to a AOE finisher. This by in itself isnt bad however it begins to become stale and not really fun nor challenging even in proud mode.
Enemy variety is lacking a lot as there aren't many unversed nor a whole lot of nobodies but a plethera of heartless. What gives? They could resuse old models of unversed and spiced it up with new moves or just have different properties like with the sorcerer and berserker in kh3 or just add in even more unversed and nobodies to expand the enemy roster. This could have been accomplished by having a middle point within the story to flesh out the whole cast and pace out the story by tieing up loose ends by the previous entries such as kairi being a former resident of radient garden as an example as thats a plot point that never was explained within kh 1 nor kh2 and uncovering the main reason as to why xehanort wanted to uncover the X-blade and start another keyblade war, the motivation behind his ambition to start a war as well as the events in his childhood that sparked his innate curiosity into weilding darkness and light in equal shares, instead of its a chess game gg well played my guy and somehow im a good guy and you gotta believe it bullshit.
@MisAnthro Pony stacking abilities in kh2 is indeed useful due to the effectiveness it has in fight but not every ability must be equipped such as combo plus and air combo plus as each ability has usefulness in different situations, an example of how the abilities can be ineffective can be is during boss fights as bosses have revenge value and can punish you with a counter attack, good example for this is dark inferno, the organisation fights near the end of kh3, lingering will, every boss in kh 1, kh2 and kh bbs (although you can argue with bbs that RV was implemented very horribly as the bosses counter regardless of revenge value) as well as other superbosses within the kingdom Hearts series except with birth by sleep bosses due to how frequent the bosses counterattacks regardless of revenge value.
On top of the fact that a majority of the time players dont equip every ability for every fight, examples being negative combo, auto abilities, dodge slash, combo plus.
With your regards towards the keyblades in kingdom hearts 2, every keyblade has a use some are more useful than others and the fact that sweet memories is only used for leveling masterform is indeed a valid arguement but that can also be said about the monochrome keyblade and follow the wind as those 2 keyblades also have only one use same with the Gullwing keyblade however i counter this with the fact that each of these keyblsdes serves a purpose regardless of how big or small it but it serves a purpose regardless. In kh3 the only keyblades you mainly would use is tangled, heros origin, kingdom key, pirates and big hero 6. Even though the stats are pale in comparison to ultima they get the job done just as quick an example is the countershield finisher with heros origin wrathful fury and tangleds fuck off lazers.
You kinda didnt understand the problem with attraction flow commands, yes they are optional, but the ISSUE with these commands is the sole fact that it is too frequent and the game forces these command option to the player which overall sucks and needs to be changed to be less frequent and or the option to be turned off.
When i was talking about the staleness of kh3 it was due to each mob fight being just cast magic to formchange to cast op finisher and grand magic which can auto track, example being firaza, thunderza, waterza hell not even just the za spells just any grand magic in genral. Form changes do indeed modify the spells in ways such as highwind making every spell aoe but thats like the only one which kinda blows.
Kh2 has indeed broken stuff in the game such as firaga loop final form, limits in general like duck flare and trinity limit. Limits are balanced in a smart way as each limit regardless drains ALL OF YOUR MP. This can be argued that you can bring items thus nullify this drawback which is indeed true but there are only a limited amout of item slots your going to have even when compared to kh1 and kh3. Limit are incredibly powerful when used correctly in fights, example being demyx with trinity limit or duck flare with larxene and demyx,
Firaga loop final form is indeed comically busted however the driveforms drain quick even with 2 drive boosts and oathkeepeer equipped as each attack deplets the drive guage very quickly especially with final form on top of the fact that each form has a required amount of drive guage in order to be used as well as a condition to be met such as donald and goofy being alive with the exception of limit form. Now limit form is really powerful but is balanced in a way thats smart as you cant use magic to regain your hp so in order to regain hp you use your limits to regain it, 3 of your limits dont have invincibility frames the whole way through especially Ragnarok, strike raid has full invincibility frames but the finisher and the attacks of strike raid are slow and if used in fights that are challenging such as lingering will, the strike raid limit will be your downfall as the finisher has very little invincibility frames to cover you from an attack and you cant act out of a limit immediately thus making it very risky. This can also be said with the other limits within limit form just varying in degree.
With the nobodies in kh2 although not many, there were still more than what we got in kh3 same goes with the unversed in bbs, there way more and each had a unique way of fighting it an example being dragoon, these nobodies telegraph their attacks with audio and visual ques so you the player can counter their movements with either the RC or just anything like a attack or magic this design of incorporating both audio and visual effects to attacks with the enemies in kh2 gave players signs on what attack is coming and incentives players to properly punish with the RC and or attack when appropriate, even in mob fights within kh2, even though your focused on an enemy you can see but know there are other enemies within the room, you can still hear the other movements of enemies and act accordingly by dodging or using RC and get rewarded due to listening.
BB actually uploading content
Waaaaaaaaaaaat
I see that vid time
You put this perfectly. Theres a reason KH2 was easily the best. I must admit that i did actually like Flowmotion a bit because it did make it a bit faster with the ground spike but still KH2 best gameplay mechanics.
Wow I never saw this game analysed this way.
Completely opened my eyes and made me realise mechanic differences. Great vid!
Hey I totally agree with everything but I try to keep in mind from my experience working in game development (quality assurance) for a AAA title that trailers are usually made from old builds. The newest up to date builds with all the new changes have a lot of bugs that come from those new changes and are being worked out. So usually any trailer you see is on an older build of the game. That's why I'm hoping that they did make stuff less floaty after people got their hands on the demos.
This is kind of what I was thinking too. I had just assumed that all the newer footage was actually still just old footage that they've had for months, probably before any of that testing actually happened where they brought people in, since there's so much time associated with prepping a new trailer and releasing it.
I've been really tempted to look at the KH3 leaks to see how the combat is but I just can't do it. I thought about them having older builds as well. Idk, it's going to be a long month.
@@MyCloudGaming unfortunately not. The BH6 world trailer even got slated by Nomura saying "We dont have enough of it done to show a trailer but when we do, we will."
So by that logic when the BH6 trailer came out, one of the later ones, it was closer to a current build, and like BB said, the combat still looks mighty floaty.
look at the leaked gameplay
it has not changed
@@NoobsUnited9000 Seriously? I though the leaked gameplay looked a smoother and tighter than the trailers
I’m happy you did this video because it lowered my expectations so if the game is good I’ll enjoy it more but if it is bad I won’t be as disappointed
Why are Kingdom Hearts fans so defensive?
If you don’t agree, argue the premise or the arguments. Not the person
Bloody is stating an understandable concern for all the people that actually got into kh2’s combat.
You don’t hear people saying:
“It’s an ARPG, not a fighting game”
about Nioh, right? Even though it sticks to many if those design philosophies in its combat.
What kind if comment is that?
Great video Bloody. I pray to god, they fix osaka’s previous combat in kh3
It'd be cool if these nitpickers made their games. I mean, they clearly know game design despite never making a video game. Screw thpse professional developers that made millions off of KH.
Making video games is so easy. I wish Japanese people thousands of miles away from me would listen to a non native to Japan person like myself.
@@frogglen6350 "You've never cooked food before so you can't tell me you don't like how my meal tastes"
That's what you sound like
@@kholdkhaos64ray11
Yeah. Making food is way harder than making a video game. Good comparison.
@@frogglen6350 It doesn't matter how hard something is to make. If you're making a product and want people to buy it, it's very open to criticism. Regardless of whether or not the customers have experience in that craft.
Hell, even using the "making video games is hard" excuse doesn't even when certain video games turn out to be bad products
@@frogglen6350 just because it isn't easy doesn't excuse the devs when they make a substandard product. we've waited this long already, why not take the time to actually make it an improvement over 2?
what's sad is even simply walking in this game feels like I'm not in total control. sora moves so fast that i feel like he's gonna trip
*taps stick in a direction ever so slightly*
Sora then proceeds to take off like a fucking formula one car
@@bevvvy1374 Speaking of which, do we ever use vehicles or mounts? I really found that idea interesting
@@linkskywalker5417 Only one that I know of are the skateboards in 2.
@@bevvvy1374 I really wish we could ride on horseback. I mean, mounted combat with keyblades would've made for a great concept! And why don't the games let us just punch heartless and nobodies with our bare hands? I'm sure they'd be far quicker than using keyblades despite doing less damage than most. Or really, why can't we use any weapons other than keyblades? I mean, it's not like most keyblade wielders are able to fight effectively without their keyblades. Just ask Sora. He'll tell you about that time in Hollow Bastion where he lost the ability to use the keyblade (man, I'm using the word "keyblade" almost as much as many KH characters, including in this sentence). Unless for whatever reason, his memory was tampered with again
@@linkskywalker5417 If you don't fight heartless with the keyblade they just keep coming back because their hearts are never set free or something like that. Was covered in the first game.
Personally I already hate the more open worlds so I don't want vehicles but you do you
The reason they should cater to the small portion of players who notice these things is because in truth *everyone* notices it to some extent. It's just that these more pro-players are conciously aware of it. While these other players only notice it subconciously. In the back of their mind there will still be an unsatisfying feeling of something being "off". They aren't able to pinpoint what exactly it is but even they will all know that something feels "worse" than it did in the second game (at least for those that have played it).
This exactly; I'm a casual player, and a bad one at that, since I too "mash X and heal to win", and I didn't like how in 0.2 Aqua kept missing airbone enemies I was trying to aim for, and didn't like how unsatisfyingly laggy air slide felt (to the point that I just used cartwheel to move faster, or doubleflight to jump a far distance; I do the same in 3D)... but I wrote it off as just me being not a good player. And I also haven't played KH2 in such a long time, so comparisons are never at the forefront of my mind. But watching this video has made me consciously aware of this difference, and thinking back to KH2, I did really like how fast you could move in it, and how the drive forms felt, and the invincibility some of the moves gave, even if I wasn't taking advantage of everything as a whole like pro players can do. I definitely have watched KH3's combat in the trailers and not liked how many flashy special moves there are, with keyblade transformations and being able to switch keyblades and whatnot, just because it feels..... unnecessary and overwhelming? I don't like the command system in BBS and 3D either, because there's so much to choose from and 95% of them I don't even use, because I don't know _what_ to use. I'd rather just go back to KH2's gameplay..... less is more, I think is what the devs aren't getting anymore.
@@ProPinkist The reason less is more, especially in game development, is because when you do less you can go further in-depth with it. If you keep making more and more and add more on top of it it *has* to be shallow, because you *have* to work less on each gameplay component to allow for more of the "shallow" gameplay components and gimmicks to be added.
Mash X player here, and I can confirm. I never finished actually playing bbs bc it felt stiff and wrong and I was able to play a demo of kh3 and my biggest take away was that it was very smooth. Too smooth. I wish there was more snap in it. It all feels a big one noted with very little weightiness. I don’t quite feel like my hits have impact
This. BBS was my first KH game and I STILL had that feeling in the back of my head saying "Something's a bit off about the combat and movement. But oh well, it's fun overall".
Main reason why KH2 is the best in the franchise is purely because of amazing gameplay. Compare Lingering Will fight to Mysterious Figure, the game feels like an downgrade instead of upgrade, and that's because the gameplay in KHBBS sucks. I always thought that it's the gameplay what makes Kingdom Hearts good, and without it, it's dead.
And then it comes the final upgrade... I mean, downgrade
Kingdom Hearts 3D where the totality of the moves are useless and are going to get yourself killed
oh yeah, balloon, at least we have that huh..
I don't know about dead, I would still love the story and characters, but yeah KH3 is worrying.
Gotta agree.
Although even if the gameplay isn’t as good as KH2, it’s not like that means KH3 is gonna be bad. I personally believe KH3 isn’t going to surpass KH2 in terms of its gameplay. I’ve thought that for a long time. But again, it’s not like KH3 is ruined if it’s not as good or better than KH2’s combat.
The mysterious figure fight is probably the worst fight in any kingdom hearts game
@surpreme at least it has one of the best songs in the series.
As a casual player, I couldn't get really far in BBS without wishing it played like KH2. My main complaint is that it felt slow and unsatisfying.
KH2 would not still be played 13 years after it came out, cared about, or aged very well if it didn't feel so damn good to play. I play it again every year because I have fun doing it no matter how many times it's been. I force myself to play ALL Osaka games, they are not terrible but they're not *that* fun so what good is a game if it doesn't entertain you.
I force myself to do kh3 (not remind) secret boss it takes me 2 days and I hate myself do it, I don't feel happy about myself defending him, not like kh2 (not final mix) it take me alot of days to master that fight and once I beat sephiroth I feel happy like yea I beat that guy
It's a bit disingenuous when you mention *all* Osaka games, even though the vast majority of them are removed from standard KH comabt due to command decks and other gameplay and stylistic differences compared to the difference between 2 and 3. 2 and 3 are the same game in terms of combat, with 3 simply being the polished version of 2. People keep playing 2 brcuase they're simps for nostalgia, it's just that simple. It's the same reason people keep playing melee after multiple iterations of Smash, despite it being massively outdated. It's the same reason people keep insisting that Raimi's Spider-Man movies were great when they really truly weren't.
Nostalgia governs all of these decisions, and it governs 2 as well. A lot of the same criticisms i hear directed at 3 were directed at 2 once upon a time. Everyone just forgets that fact. The combat in 2 is the worst thing to ever happen to KH combat throughout the series. It's what changed the game from a slower and more focused game to an X masher.
You know when I was seven years old playing Kingdom hearts 2 for the first time I quickly concluded that my new action ability dodge slash was garbage. I figured that Sora doing a little dance leaving him open to take damage was a bad thing. I then of course unequipped the ability. If I can see why being animation locked for minimal or no compensation (dodge slash is only useful against specific bosses after all) at the age of SEVEN I simply can not see why anyone much older than that can not see floaty combat as a problem. As has been proven time and time again there is a LOT we can complain about floaty combat ruining. But I have yet to hear how non-floaty combat in any way ruins the game for a low difficulty player.
100%.
@@Shemegory To be fair Dodge Slash is an ability more useful for mob fights than bosses. His little dance has hitboxes all around which can snag enemies behind you trying hit you. It can also parry projectiles fairly well. Not saying it's amazing but that might be the intended use...
Young you wasn't blinded by nostalgia
I am not sure what you are trying to say to whom but if you are accusing me of being nostalgia blind you are remarkably stupid. If I was nostalgia blind why the hell would I be so critical about flaws in KH combat? If more specifically you mean nostalgia blind for KH2 then you are just full of shit now. The only other game in the KH series that could compete for the spot of objective best is KH1 and I personally don't really like KH1. I would rather play Re:Coded. Does that make Re:Coded a better game? Hell no. KH2's combat is objectively more fluid than the likes of BBS and DDD. You can still have BBS or DDD be your favorite but that does not invalidate the glaring issues they have in their combat issues.
If anyone is nostalgia blind it is the pro-floaty crowd that doesn't want their fragile little feelings hurt at the idea of KH3 doing something worse than KH2 so they attack the anti-floaty crowd telling them they aren't allowed to compare KH3 to KH2 or just calling them toxic. ProdigyxCD is the pinnacle of fragile feelings regarding KH3. His first video on the subject he tried to invalidate the fact that the Osaka team has a floaty combat problem with KH by saying different things in BBS and DDD are also broken. Which is stupid because more broken garbage does not make basic combos less trash. And his second video on the subject (his most recent. I don't care if he made more he's a rude dumbass) he called the anti-floaty crowd toxic and that he was disappointed in our behavior. Fuck that asshole. ProdigyxCD is full of shit. I think his body if made up of 99% shit considering that is all that comes out of his mouth when he gives his opinion.
@@terrariku2010 lol relax. He just compared young you to others. He didn't say you were nostalgia blind now.
Yeah KH3 was floaty. Every move has extreme end lag and it essentially forces you into the air as much as possible. The last 1/4 of the game is literally a series of boss battles fought almost entirely in the air. You're forced to either run and use magic or spam attack and air dodge arbitrarily until you need to run away and heal, and it incentivizes using your cinematic moves because they mostly grant you a brief lull of invincibility despite their relatively ineffective use as actual attacks. Hardly any of the cinematic action prompts do substantial damage. It's just a series of getting caught in unnecessarily flashy animations until you get interrupted by far more responsive enemies. I miss KH2 combat mechanics.
@MisAnthro Pony
He didn’t bring up Kingdom hearts 2 even once dude. You just don’t want to admit that the game you like could be better.
(Edit) Okay apparently I can’t read.
It really just sounds like you suck at the game dude.
At this point, I don't even care if the game is more fluid or as fluid as KH2, I just want it to be better than all the other Osaka Team games so far. And while thankfully it doesn't QUITE seem like the MF or Julius problems of only having one solution that consistently works... I don't know. Maybe most of the flashier comboes and finishers have invincibility frames now. I can't possibly know until it comes out.
nahnah390 I def think it'll be between the Osaka games and KH2 at the end of the day.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say the combos and finishers won't have s. The demo people played showed people even taking damage during summons. During. Fucking. Summons. If Sora doesn't get s on summon attacks, I doubt they thought to give him s in many other...~ahem~ situations of command.
The Cosmonaut Variety Hour sent me here
Pls upload more videos, you are a great analytic
Hot take, but I think KH1's combat was pretty darn good.
Yeah, lots of people say 'basic hack & slash', but I think the difficulty curve was in that most bosses literally had 0 hitstun, making it all about timing (also the reason why Riku and Sephiroth are so notoriously hard is because they're the only bosses that have revenge values, as revenge values do exist in this game but are very few).
Combined with rolls, guards, and the tech points system, and well... pretty solid, I would say.
The camera helps, too.
attacks feel good and connect well. 1 and 2 was simply developed by veterans. Osaka team were not veterans when they started working on KH.
I came back to this video after playing KH3 and omfg... No dodge cancelling, no block cancelling, so many frames on block that it's actually punishable, and no invincibility frames on all these god damn flashy close outs. I realized I just debased myself to exactly what you said... mash X and Triangle, heal when low, and go back to mashing X and Triangle. No learning enemy patterns and telegraphs and adapting. If it wasn't for the nostalgia, I'd have put the controller down.
Bro the love for Sonic Unleashed is real
Best Sonic game.
@jordanholloman5907 Most polished game actually.
The world needs more critically minded people like you BB.
The gaming industry desperatley needs people that are more critically minded. YT reviewers and mainstream reviewers are just shills now.
Exactly. So many people I know when getting into debates or analysis discussions just go "I dunno, I liked it and didn't see anything wrong. Why put that much thought into it?"
@@chunkymonkeychunky The same people that are all for "positivity" Get extremely aggressive and angry when you say something negative about a game they like. They try and shame you into thinking like them.
Unfortunately, people like BB would rather complain about games rather than *create* 👏😏
@@frogglen6350 What is wrong with complaining
This discussion has always baffled me in general. How is it in any way, shape, or form a negative to critique and analyze a games' systems? If anything, it shows that you give a shit. If you just praise every single aspect of a project without question, none of your statements actually have any meaning to them at all.
In the case of the KH series I find this particularly confusing. I mean KH2 is a game with a huge, incredibly dedicated fanbase. Not to mention the fact that this fanbase is entirely capable of articulating and conveying every strength of KH2's design and gameplay.
Should that fact not show that there is at least a modicum of substance to these claims, even if you yourself don't care enough to actually think about game feel, design, etc.? Objectively, I mean.
Oh and regarding your analysis - I wholeheartedly agree.
EDIT: Also, holy shit this comment section is fascinating!
Thanks, Gerald from Core-A Gaming. Very cool.
I thought the exact same thing as soon as the music got muffled and he started talking about fighting games.
Bro screw dem haters,
Your In-depth analysis was eye-opening and leads to a greater discussion on the KH3.
This was a very well written and well spoken video. I truly feel that game developers can benefit by watching videos on TH-cam such as these as they're some of the best to help out the community. Stellar job, man.
This helps me understand why the combat in KH3 felt a little "off" to me, and my mind kept going back to KH2. Wasn't sure why until watching this. Just makes me realize how impressive KH2 still is.
This is why I say that Re:Coded is BBS done right, and why I think that Re:Coded is one of the most fun games to play in the series. Attacks and other animations are fast and responsive, basic attacks can be chained into commands and vice versa allowing for combos to be extended and varied, ground-based commands can be used in midair to bring you immediately back down to the ground, and every attack feels like it's viable and can be used to create your own unique playstyle. It's all of the good parts about the Command Deck system without any of the bs that make the Osaka games monotonous by forcing the player into picking 3 or 4 commands that can cheese the game into actually being playable (especially where boss fights are concerned).
Bizkit, I notice a staggering resemblance to the Core-A Gaming channel's own series regarding various topics on fighting games, and I want to say that your interpretation of the topic + the style you have adopted makes it incredibly clear on what you are trying to convey. Your editing was sharp and clean, much unlike Air Slide, and made your points clear through visuals and strong, assertive points. Looking forward to seeing a followup of some sort once you get your hands on the international version of KH3. Great content!
That's actually an interesting way to appeal to a wider audience. Making the game approachable on lower difficulties while putting enough effort into the actual gameplay and underlying systems that more hardcore players have something to appreciate on higher difficulties, as opposed to only making the enemies hit harder and tank more damage, thus giving both parties something to enjoy. Much better than striving to make something bland and inoffensive to the point that it simultaneously appeals to everyone and no one.
I'm not sure this will affect me as much as it'll affect Bl00dyBizkitz. But i understand where he comes from, and it's a place full of good intentions. We are both fans that just want a good game that feels good to play. He isn't here to spit on the next upcoming installment of a beloved serie, but on the contrary, this is as "fan" as a fan gets, or at least should. Mindless fanatism shouldn't be viewed in a good light.
There is ALWAYS room for improvement in any game, even the best (and upcoming) ones, and KH3 is no exception. Even KH2 isn't, but it's a finished game, released game. People that are dismissive simply because "it doesn't matter durrrrr!!!" are, if not a downright threat to good game making and intellectual honesty, at the very least very irritating and shortsighted to stay polite, and of questionable intelligence to be less polite.
If you don't want to care about it, then don't care, but you should do what you do best with this video aswell: not care. If you are gonna get on his back for suggesting improvements and voicing complaints/concerns, just stop.
Yeah i'll play KH3. Yeah i'll probably enjoy it. Yeah the issue addressed might not bother me. But what's the harm in wanting and getting an EVEN BETTER GAME?
Besides, you'd be surprised how much those little details can change. It's the difference between "yeah, this feel like an average hack and slash/ARPG" and "damn, this is so satisfying to play!".
If only these guys can let go of their kh2 fanboyism
@@danieltinsleykhvsff9622 I mean, what's wrong with less endlag and faster air combos?
@@blakelyready5980 What's wrong with more of them? After all, KH1 had the lower end lag and more air combos than KH2 did. KH2 is the one that changed the script, but people treat it like it's the gold standard. Aerial combos used to be the preference in KH1 because you could get through them faster than ground combos. KH2 broke that up, so that's the one that needs to be defended. Kh3 simply improved the combat standard that KH2 set. It's literally just an improved version of the same combat system. The only ones that disagree are those blinded by nostalgia and the cringe sweatlords that try to turn the series into a fighting game when it isn't.
Man, KH2 really is the Melee of the series haha. It just is so good mechanically with freedom of movement.
I think another issue is that people hear "poor gameplay design" and interpret it as someone saying the game isn't fun at all. I had fun playing through BBS and 0.2 and DDD, but the gameplay is still booty. It doesn't make it not a fun game, it makes it so that trying to dive deep into the mechanics and master them isn't satisfying. KH2 has so much replayability because of the depth of its combat.
It's the same reason people who play competitive pokemon don't like Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee. The depth in the gameplay isn't there so there's not as much replayability.
Ha, dive deep
That's your opinion not everyone is going to ignore bad gameplay and say it's still good. Lots of games have good story out there why would you settle for bad gameplay when you can play a game with both a good story and gameplay.
You hit all of this right on the nose. This is what leave KHIII combat leaving something to be desired.
I'm super late to this discussion but I wanted to say that this month I started a full franchise marathon in my free time for my girlfriend, who just likes watching me play games, so I figure that perhaps the introspection of an adult who has 0 nostalgia for KH might be interesting. Playing in release order on the highest difficulty each time absolutely blind. I found this video because after beating BBS and starting DDD something just isn't hitting for me with these games and I couldn't place exactly why. But you hit the nail on the head exactly
The Sonic Unleashed music had me in my feels a bit.
People don't appreciaete Sonic music enough
Stoked on the Sonic Unleashed OST. That game has an amazing soundtrack which is supremely underrated.
“But that only affects speedrunners” LOLLL
Aaron Baumer XD
Speedruners sucks. The worse kind of player
Victor Rocha why though
@@goodguytongue7159 The kind of gamer that ruins every game experience using cheats and codes, glitching the whole thing up just to finish the game in less then 20 seconds and even basically mocking at game developers by saying "Your game is too easy and it sucks".
@@victorrocha5755 speedrunning doesn't allow cheat codes. Try again. You've been cancelled, next!
As a person who plays on Standard, I can say agree with what you said about my play style. Button mash and heal. Button mash and heal. However, even I noticed that there was something in the gameplay in BBS and KH3 that just didn’t live up to the gold standard of KH2. I never was able to pinpoint what it was, but I think you just did. So, thanks.
People are defensive about this because they feel like you’re attacking something they’ve put all their hope into. They are upset because they feel powerless to change anything.
Also, why is nobody addressing the keyblade wielders' overreliance on their keyblades? There are only two games in the series that even remotely addressed that if for whatever reason, a keyblade wielder is stripped of his ability to use his keyblade, he's toast unless he relies on others and/or uses magic
@@linkskywalker5417 Mysterious figure and Axel seemed fine.
Bl00dy, you're god damn beautiful and I love you.
Second this comment
this video is literally perfect. KH3 does not feel the same as KH2
Why do people object to looking at fighting games for good combat design? Those games are played exclusively for their combat. Analyzing them can give insight to what makes a combat feel satisfying. Even when making a game from a different genre, you can try to copy the fundamental aspects of a fighting game and replicate them in your genre.
As a fellow FGC member I have to agree with you, whether you end up reading this or not: goddamn are animations hard to cancel in the Osaka Team games.
DDD doesn't seem to have as many animation issues as these other games had (at least in my personal run in the PS4), mostly because you can cancel the stuff more often and Balloonra is a fire-and-forget godsend that helps you do whatever you want while dealing high damage. My main problem with the game is that BOSSES NEVER TAKE ANY HITSTUN AND IT BOTHERS ME TO NO END. I always felt like I had to cheese out the bosses, and that was only exacerbated by the Drop gauge and the Command cooldowns.
When I got into young Xehanort, I had the most fun ever in the game, because he took hitstun - quite a hefty amount of it, actually; and it was so cool to experiment with all the ways I could extend a combo. Grounded Sliding Sidewinder (the attack after slide) worked wonders as a combo starter, it's possible to combo out of *Blizzara* of all things, and there was so much cool shit to do that I really didn't even mind when I was killed and stuff because I didn't feel any need or want for a campy, safe strategy.
Which is more than I have to say about _Super_ Armored Ventus
I'm terrible at kh games, can barely stomach the first half of kh2 on proud, but in a vacuum even I had similar concerns when watching the trailers. I hate pressing a button and seeing my character enter their own world for a few seconds, ignoring any other button I want to press. It's not even just about dealing with higher difficulties or balancing the game in a competitive sense, it's just more fun when you feel in control.
Alright let me get this out of here...
Calling something "nitpicky" is NOT a good counter-argument.
On the flipside, calling someone a "blind rabid fanboy who can't take criticism" when he/she presents a logical counterargument to you is also not a counterargument in itself.
Jason Matthews Spot on
@@jasonmatthews52 That's true, IF they indeed *do* present a logical counterargument. "I don't care" isn't one of them.
That sounds more of an opinion really. Which people are allowed to have
@@butterbean804 And if we are to be nitpicky, so be it then
I used to think people like BB were being nitpicky, but then I actually analyzed kh2fm's gameplay and see why it's so fun and now I really want kh3 to have the same kind of quick and satisfying combat as kh2fm. I believe That kh2fm is the best in terms of gameplay and just the most solid game overall. Minus some story things like the Disney worlds not really being important to the plot, or not really feeling important
But i agree pretty much 100% with you BB. Excellent video and you're my fav speedrunner. Besides Vinesauce Vinny with his "speedruns" of zelda and monkey ball games
Even though I have never played any of the Kingdom Hearts games at all, I completely understand where you are coming from when it comes to gameplay changes. This whole video gives me an eerily similiar vibe towards how I feel about the changes that were made to Bayonetta 2 compared to part 1 and how many people don't seem to notice it and that I'm just being a huge nitpicker.
High risk/high reward gameplay is definitely one of the best aspects of action combo gameplay, whether its Bayo or Kingdom Hearts, and now I feel like I should play the KH series soon so I can see what makes that series special to everyone.
Imagine going to your favorite restaurant, ordering your favorite dish, but this time, the chef hops on your table, squats down, and lays coils all over it. That's what they did to Kingdom Hearts.
They shit all over it, if you need a clearer explanation.
This video combined with the Sonic Unleashed soundtrack in the background gives me major nostalgia.
KH2 Critical Mode is the most fun I've had with a Kingdom Hearts game
I think to really drive the point home you should’ve talked about/shown footage of people fighting the data organization members with restrictions (ex. only using the basic keyblade combos, no abilities, items, etc.) and compared it to how it’s impossible to do that in Osaka Team KH games
I'm not saying Kingdom Hearts needs to be the next Devil May Cry, but Osaka Team could learn a thing or two from DMC
You reignited my passion for making videos. Don't know if you'll see this comment but been a fan of your for a while man. And honestly I've said a lot of similar things about KH2 to some friends but it kinda fell on deaf ears to some of them. I remember playing KH2 and DMC3 around the same time back in the day and I was like these are really expressive but when I tried out BBS I was like it feels so... Slow and my keyblade never felt like it had weight to it. But keep up the great work man!
Thank you for this interesting analysis. You have put into words and disected an issue that I had being sensing but couldn't explain myself. BBS felt slower to me but it wasn't that much of a deal (I don't do speedruns like you but i have played all of the games in the highest difficulty), but playing KH3 I have felt many many times that while fighting I couldn't control or predict the direction of Sora's attacks, specially during combo finishes. This never happened to me in KH2, and after some hours playing it was very satisfying to feel such a level of control even while executing complex combos.
Thank you for this video. Without it, I would never be able to place exactly why the combat in KH3 annoyed and pissed me off in some places. Great video.
@MisAnthro Pony If you enjoyed it then dude, hats off to you. I just think KH3 missed the mark.
Seeing the fighting game comparison is fitting, cause I sorta view KH2FM as the Super Smash Bros. Melee of the franchise. Both are highly regarded second entries of their respective franchises that continue to have loyal followings who openly take issue with the combat in the games that have released since.
Looks like they tightened it up a bit. The leaked gameplay looked smooth and quick. You can also skip the attractions
You have any links to leaked gameplay without Story spoilers?
I noticed that myself in the gameplay I saw of Arendelle a few months back (when they showed the Sora vs. Aqua battle). The combos looked snappier to my eye and it looked like Sora was able to get to the ground more rapidly.
@@PathBeyondTheDark it's on reddit. I forgot the guys name
@@vincentvictorero4747 Alright, appreciate the response.
I really hope that's true..
I feel KH3's Combat, particularly after the updates, DID at least try and fix the problems not by removing the floatiness problem entirely but by mitigating the risks of being Midair.
You still want to be on the ground at points, but Aerial combat is much more balanced since many of the options you lost in older games-- Blocking and dodging-- are now readily available in the air, and made far better than what 0.2 attempted. Your combos are also the same on ground and air with the exception of the basic combo finishers. Airstep in particular helps IMMENSELY for Aerial control and Gapclosing, allowing for more interesting Aerial combat scenarios than what 0.2 offered.
The trade off becomes the fact that Aerial dodges and blocks have a bit more endlag, but the fact you HAVE those options rewards smarter play, especially in Critical mode where perfect blocks allow for more damage. This becomes apparent in the Remind Superbosses, which heavily incentivize this and often punish grounded dodge spam.
The ReMind update also removed a huge gripe from the game; Combo finishers can now be cancelled faster. Base Game allowed you to cancel basic combos into a dodge, but for some reason finishers were animation-locked. Fixing that, alongside adding faster attack modifiers, made the clunky-ish base game combat feel much smoother, even as far as being as smooth as KH2's combat.
Also, the New combo finisher made using the finisher actually fucking viable for base-form. What a concept.
But Base game, especially Pre-Patch KH3? Yeah, screw that.
This is so insanely true, I'm playing kh bbs for the first time and the animations do not flow at all, using a finisher in the air while juggling an enemy it'll put me down on the ground as ventus.....very frustrating. I've been using command modes to just juggle enemies like I would normally in an air combo. And on top of that, the combos are very slow unless in a command mode.
Using short hop doesn't even work, the animation MUST finish before you hit the ground, frustrating, but not game breaking.
In a way, kh3 did respond to this problem. However instead of making the combat tight, they made the whole game easy to make floaty combat work. Did you all try the singular post game boss? I beat him at lvl 54 with base game gear.
For the first few seconds, I thought I was watching a Core-A Gaming video
I found the gameplay of 0.2 and 3 was fun, but ultimately it wasn't as *satisfying* as KH 2. This video helped me find out why.
The super-bosses are what make the KH games truly spectacular in my opinion and with BBS, 3D and FP the super fights were not fun because of the mechanics. I never felt like I was actually learning the boss strategy. With LW, I've now memorised every way to counter his abilities and when in his attacks to dodge and counter to follow up with a combo to deal the maximum damage before the revenge frame kicks in. With the other games there was no reason to learn those strategies, because their was usually only one opening and everything else was dodged the exact same way. Basically when you compare the best super-boss (Lingering Will) to the worst (Mysterious Figure) their really is no competition between the two and I'm worried that the super-bosses and even some of the main bosses in 3 will lean more towards the latter than the former. For casual play (which I will be doing for my first play through of 3) I don't see this being an huge issue but when I want to explore all the harder stuff in the game I see it demolishing my interest in continuing. I really want KH3 to be everything we've been waiting for and I hope that the new trailer footage is just some recycled stuff for the old model but I'm still concerend
This is fantastic.
I personally don’t mind floaty gameplay, but definitely prefer the tighter because of all the points you bring up.
I totally get frustrated with the floaty combat due to the lack of i-frames and how some finishers are too flashy with bombastic animations-essentially cutscenes.
That said, because I enjoy the story and characters, I don’t mind suffering through those faults of the floaty combat.
I don’t think any game has or could live up to how perfect KH2’s combat is.
Never played much KH, but as someone who enjoys mechanics and movement in games this was a good watch.
People out here talking about floaty combat, all I want is a coherent story and less pauses between character dialogue.
Who.....................................are... you?
But it wouldn't be Japanese without it being over the top
"all I want is a coherent story"
then you're playing the wrong series family man.
Less pauses? Please. Give me laughter that doesn’t sound awkward and then we’ll talk
So we've gone from simple, lovable story and awkward but usable combat, to overly complex story and exquisite combat, and now to overdrawn out mess of a story and overdrawn out laggy combat. The fuck did I wait all this time for? Good thing I didn't buy the game. Fuck that noise. Maybe if it goes on sale for like $20
The more I play KH3, the more it makes me want to go back to KH2...
I'd suggest updating the game--the january patch fixed many issues with KH3's slow combos by introducing kh2-esque abilities back
Even going from DDD to 0.2, I was still disappointed at how clunky it felt. And that’s really saying something.
not a fighting game person, but playing BBS was absolutely one of the most frustrating things I'd done in a long time, and I'd just finished playing chain of memories on ps4. Thanks for explaining the weird feeling I kept getting while trying to deal with things in that game otl. KH3's cinematic scenes are half of why I didn't use the didney rides and the olympus special pegasus attack just straight up blinded me half the time. The triangle button got super cluttered REAL fast. fortunately, I think they did better on the literal aerial combat part, since when combined w glide you basically can use your ground moves in the air it feels like, and during keyblade transformations you're fully immune to things. Which,,,, I exploited,,, a whole lot whenever i got caught in an enemy combo otl
Im currently replaying the 1st game after years and forgot how much the camera can screw you over. I found myself backed into corners unable to see shit and hoping whatever attack i unleashed hit the target i was aiming for. The autolock can screw you over, too. I'm constantly reminded why i never replayed KH1, but loved replaying 2
Sorry Biscuit but you are wrong because of "Muh waiting my whole life for KH3".
What even?
@@BlazingAl he's joking
@@AaronGarrison I doubt it. Check his channel and look at his videos.....
@@BlazingAl it's a bunch of gag videos with none about kingdom hearts, he's joking.
@@BlazingAl
The fact that he says "Muh" implies that he's joking.
The people who complain about the points Bl00dy's making here have no concept of how action games like Devil May Cry 1, 3, and 4, Wonderful 101, God Hand, Anarchy Reigns/ Max Anarchy, Metal Gear Rising: Revenagnce, or either of the Bayonetta games work, nor any other high quality action game worth its salt, and no concept of why they feel so good and fun to play. Maybe they've just never touched a good action game other than KH2, so they don't understand the distinction. You keep on telling them, Bl00dyBizkitz; those of us who give a shit about game feel and mechanics understand your point. In the future, I'd compare Kingdom Hearts 2 and beyond against games in the 'character action'/ 'spectacle fighter' subgenre of action games, not fighting games, as they're a closer parallel and thus make your point for you a lot easier, but it's alright if you're not too familiar with those franchises. No idea if you play those or not. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, look up Rudicorn's "What is the Character Action Genre?" video. It gives a good rundown of what I'm describing and it intuitively expands on Bl00dy's points in this video, even though it's completely unrelated. Frame data, invincibility frames, animation canceling, the option to cancel a combo string early in general, and so on are all very important to defining the difference between a 'good, serviceable' action game (including an action RPG like Kingdom Hearts) and a great one like those I namedropped above, as well as KH2, but not any other game in the franchise, even if Birth By Sleep is mechanically fun in its own, lesser way. To see a good example of the risk vs. reward of air combat that Bl00dy's discussing, look up【DMC4SE】Vergil Combo Mad - Endless Power by TensaZangetsx. Aqua in 0.2 'A Fragmentary Passage' feels like the polar opposite of everything Vergil does in that video.
Many thanks for the detailed information, im reading plenty of comments but those 2 videos you mentioned are a must-watch after this video!
FishSkeleton Don't forget to mention games God of War, and Onimusha. Both have great and fun gameplay.
Now I'm really scared to play KH2. Because I'm gonna notice how bad the controls could be in KH3.
Absolutely this. I have so much fun playing critical mode normally, and the whenever I get to a boss it's suddenly just dodge until I can get a single hit in. It's so lame
Thanks for this video Bl00dy. I'm glad you still are adamant on this and have the intelligence to tell it like it is. This is THE hill to die on. It's not about "only speedrunners care" it's about it being downright broken to respond. Even in 60FPS bad balance is bad and it's a problem for everyone to play. It makes you fail more miss more and die more in game. For a unfair disadvantage.
I'm far from a hardcore player. As a kid I probably played KH1 & 2 on either easy or standard, I don't remember specifically since it was so long ago. But when I first picked up KH2FM, playing KH2 for the first time in years, I was intrigued by critical mode seeing as it gave extra abilities from the start, so on a whim decided to try it. I literally almost never choose to play on the hardest difficulty and found KH2FM on critical to be a big struggle, but bar a few sections that I just plain didn't enjoy, it never felt like it was frustratingly difficult because the deaths never felt like "bullshit!" moments where there was nothing I could have done better or that I was being punished for simply playing the game.
I went into BBSFM and picked critical mode again, thinking I'd have the same experience. I was mistaken. Still haven't to this day finished that game and doubt I ever will, admittedly partially because I absolutely detest the command deck style of gameplay.
KH3 seems to have tried to eliminate the problemswhen choosing a higher difficulty not by fixing the actual issue, but by removing the challenge almost entirely excluding an extremely frustrating final boss fight where an entire section of the fight is aerial combat exclusively. It does this by giving you nearly endless free power moves that either include long invincibility frames or which make it extremely easy to avoid enemy attacks, or in the case of magic, just do huge amounts of damage to pretty much every enemy on screen. So the only way to have any sort of challenge is to not use these options at all, which is both boring as hell, and unbelievably frustrating because it's like "well what the fuck else am I supposed to do?"
If a player on my level can only be challenged by intentionally not using half of the combat mechanics, there's a problem. If a player like Bl00dy can only avoid frustrating enemies by playing defensively and spamming magic that's a problem. It's not just the hardcore players that are missing out here by any stretch of the imagination.
10:19 I’m glad you mentioned the finisher. The animation just looks so stiff and horrible, I thought I was the only one who was bothered by that.
Look what they did to explosion in Second Form ... THEY KILLED IT !
Saying the combat don't matter when it's gameplay is saying gameplay doesn't matter. True gamers and not dumb people know that the entire game is the gameplay and are suggesting it stays bad. Do you not want you game to get better.
DMC is a good example of risk and reward with jumping, but rewards jumping heavily with giving you a lot of options to maneuver through the air, and you even have a dive kick that has a crap ton of priority and is good for finishing combos or escaping.