I feel it's more accurate to say that Leighton participated in the debate, because Dr White (as is standard for him) just assumed that his position was true and didn't bother to prove it. Saying Leighton won is accurate, but I think he was the only one actually participating in the debate.
This is exactly how I felt he didn't really respond to what Layton said he just wanted to argue about how late and didn't give him the textbook answer that he would expect from a calvinist instead of it made the debate actually kind of sad
You're probably right. The fact that White started saying Flowers conceded the debate because he said "If your presuppositions were true, then they would be true" is a pretty good indication that the guy is not interested at all in engaging in any sort of debate. He wants to *shut down* debate.
I love your passion and I love your point at 54:00. Yes, that is exactly right and you should be passionate and not back down when fellow believers soil the glory and good name of our king. They may think they are bringing Him honor but they do no such thing when they lay the filth of sin at His feet and His responsibility. Please, keep pushing back, I love to see it!
@@Willy_jackson9 but they won't flat out say that. In fact, if you tell them what calvinism implies with its logical ends. They call you a demon spawn, and say you believe in lies from hell. Not even kidding. That happened to me.
@kgar5String I will tell jokes no matter what if something is funny. For example, do you think waterboarding is a fun beach activity? And if you are wrong, proud about it, and cannot even debate in good faith (White), then how can someone take you seriously? The guy has been spewing the ad hominem fallacy for decades... not a great commercial for getting a doctorate (and yes, I have one). Seriously... I mean that literally.
The biggest thing about that debate that bothered me was that James didn't want to deal with any other texts and he didn't want to deal with the the propositional idea of Rob the reprobate so why was he debating
Brother Leighton, I need to say thank you for all that you do in defending against Calvinism. Your passion and consistency is inspiring to so many of us that aspire to also defend against these doctrines.
White didn’t miss the point. He played dodgeball and avoided the point(s). Your problem is you’re too nice a guy. With someone like White you have to learn to do what trial attorneys do when a witness dodges a question. You come back. Again. And again. And you highlight and emphasize the dodging. And when a witness falsifies testimony, or says something to mislead, you NEVER let him forget it. You play that sound bite again and again. You have a great and gracious spirit, Bro Flowers. It’s one of the reasons I watch you. Don’t let a throat cutting, hard-hearted lawyer get you off track. 😊
Love you Leighton! ❤️ Your determination to step up to James White means more to the Church than you realize. This past debate, the baalgate, etc, and following responses have really showcased James White's constant condescending attitude from a place of ignorance. I honestly think James White CANNOT even hypothetically consider the possibility that his presupposition could be incorrect. "My view MUST be true, therefore I'm right." Not a good look. 😮💨
I grew up hard 5 point calvinist. I also couldn't see the opposing view because of presuppositions. The only reason I was able to escape was because I purposely started looking at the issue with the intent to understand the opposing view. In order to do that you seen to drop your presuppositions. JW doesn't seem to be able to do that.
Exactly bro , Mr White can say all day long he is not using his cálvanist prepositions, but he is , and if he is not , well bye bye tulip , that’s what Mr White was trying to do with Mr Flowers, to make him drop provisionism , that’s where he was aiming at . Mr White knows that if he drops tulip the same way Mr Flowers should be expected of him, he’s a goner. Plain and simple . In the other hand Provision , God making a way through Christ is enough provision. But Mr White loves his tulip,he believes that is true . He’s holding on to this crap for dear life .
Why in the world would God make a way for unbelievers, for the sick as Jesus stated , it doesn’t make any sense in tulip , Mr White view is the opposite, God made a way for the righteous , all though they can sin all they long , they were born that way somehow , they were born righteous. In the calvanist view , Why did he heal the leopard? And outsider , separated from his own people , does it ring the bell, wouldn’t that make you think that is how Jesus felt and understood and then heal him? In the calvanist view well Jesus would of been justified if he did not heal the leopard either way, but this is really what they believe, they would of love for Jesus to do the opposite in healing the leopard.
Fortunely God predestined me to be repulsed by Calvinism. No matter how much I listen to the Calvinist proof text, God just doesn't want to make me understand Calvinism
I have to admit I’ve lost a little of respect for Dr. White after this. He has shown more respect for many of his opponents but treats Dr. Flowers with utter contempt and disrespect.
@@mrgrossism yes. It’s sad. Really sad because I have admired him. His work in Catholicism and in scriptural criticism is great. His debate with folks like Trent Horn and Dr. Ehrman were very good. Stuff like this just makes him look like he just wants to win instead of getting the truth out and even antagonizing Dr. Flowers.
I'm in strong agreement. I watch the Dividing Line and have seen a great many debates James White took part in. He has developed some very bad habits in debating. He holds his opponents to standards he doesn't follow. He quoted other scripture in his opening, but when Leighton brings in other verses to support his view White acts like some great sin has been committed against him and pleads with the moderator to rule for him. It's not a good look for White.
White reviewed the debate and realizes how terribly he did and how utterly he got spanked by brother Leighton and he's throwing everything negative tactic he can at Leighton to try n save face but it's not working obviously .
Leighton, several times you had mentioned in defense of the attacks of White about context. It's ironic that he in previous debates, including the one you and he did years ago, he kept barking " Context, context." Way to go, Flowers. Keep defending God's incredible love for us in spite of our choice to turn away from Him.
Dr Flowers, You are the best. You totally nail it every time.. You are rational, cordial and biblical. No wonder why Dr White can't answer your questions. Thank you for all your work and your passion for God who wants all men to be saved. ❤
He can’t go back on this out of pride and all the content he has put out on the topic. He has a natural fear of being “wrong” publicly and having to concede to a person.
Even if I agrees with White on every point....I dont....if I did his delivery is so disgusting and disturbingly unloving it would be a discouraging message for any non believer or young/new Christian . Satan loves this behavior. Completely ashamed of the behavior of many of us Christian Brothers
to be fair, IF the Calvinist are correct, what they are doing trying to convince people is a good virtue. Its unfortunate TULIP is just not supported biblically. Thats also why Dr Flowers and others are also within their right to present correctly scripture in context. Trying to find the correct interpretation of the text should be our goal as Christians
@h2s142 What do you mean? Are you trying to say no one should have the right to correct doctrine if you think its wrong? Titus 1:9 (speaking about the qualification of an elder) He must be devoted to the trustworthy message that agrees with what we teach, so that he may be able to encourage others with healthy doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
@h2s142 by that logic do you think its wrong to critique the roman catholic church for their wrong doctrine due to “scoring carnal points”? they at least hold to the core doctrines do we not address the additional doctrines added due to traditions?
Did anyone else notice that JW is doing this new thing with the big screen projector probably because of the awesome exposition Leighton Flowers did with slides and visual elements on the debate? I was impressed! 🤩😝😉
@@RenardGarzaro thank you o high authority on the bible! if my eyes and ears are closed to the scriptures, its because GOD ORDAINED IT. dont you people get it? you're wasting your time condemning heathen like me. go out and preach the word! oh wait that wouldn't benefit anyone, because the elect will be saved no matter what, the reprobate will be damned no matter what. fools
@@RenardGarzaro Smh... This is another exmaple of Calvinism blaming God for Christians' supposed "blindness" to the scriptures. Thus another reason to reject Calvinism.
@@gk.4102brother, we will be labelled as either sovereignly blinded by God for His glory or not believers at all. Or maybe there are other reasons why true believers disagree on positions?
@@botbydblud _"...sovereignly blinded by God for His glory..."_ Then Calvinism would be insinuating that God is a diety of deception who deceives His own children just like Satan does, and a liar who leads us into falsehood when He promised to do the opposite (John 16:13a) "...or not believers at all."_ Few Calvinists do this, but most know how devastating it'll be for them to treat all non-Calvinists Christians as unsaved. _"...Or maybe there are other reasons why true believers disagree on positions?"_ Yep freewill.
You know I wish I had seen this earlier because I was rather angry when I saw that he didn't have comments there because if he's not open to hear other people why should I listen to him. I mean that's what a reprobate would do right in a calvinistic view They Are Walled off and they are turned off to God and absent God doing something they're not going to listen. I stopped following his channel because I realized there was no point. If the stuff he's putting up is just for his church to consume One Direction and they interact another way that's fine but it's obviously not for those of us who don't participate in his congregation
Didn't God predetermine before the foundation of the world that you would do all this stuff to annoy James White? So why is he complaining -- he should praise God that his will is being done, and thank you for being God's tool to accomplish his will.
Honestly this debate was an example of how James has the potential of taking a single verse from the bible and ignoring all the other supporting verses from the same chapter and create a totally different theology that the bible doesn't support.
I commented on several videos: “How can infant damnation not be a key issue in Unconditional Election?” Everyone just said he’s said in the past he won’t debate it, or it’s uncouth to bring it up… but nobody actually addressed the actual issue. Seems like they won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole
Love your heart for the character of God! Declaring the character of God biblically, lovingly, boldly, and truthfully truly is glorifying Him! Amen and Amen!
It's starting to remind me of Juror #3 in '12 Angry Men.' At the climax of the story, he realizes he's starting to understand, but he doesn't want to understand, so he goes into denial and rails even angrier in favor of the guilty verdict. Except White has a lot more at stake; if he's wrong, his entire life's work has been for nothing. He'll die on this hill.
“Provisionists”hate the decree” “ no we love the decree, we just hate the idea God is decreeing evil things , that’s why we love the decree” . Still my favourite moment ..
Elephant in the room: White is the definition of a Pharisee. He thinks he knows God, doesn’t. Argues with God after making up rules he, himself, doesn’t apply to himself. Why are we treating White as a brother in Christ? He’s got a different god, a different Christ, a different method of salvation, therefore a different gospel. Please, someone, explain why we need to extend him the grace we extend to siblings.
This is REALLY interesting. I've debated many calvinists online and a lot of them cannot say they have an interpretation. They will say something like,"We have the truth." James White seems to be doing the exact same thing. They have an interpretation but don't want to admit it. Its crazy and not logical. The day that James white admits that he has an interpretation is the day that he might switch his interpretation.👍
So what White's actually arguing is that he can find a way to interpret this passage so that it fits the system he's already completely committed to. Big deal. That's not exegesis, bro.
I watched White’s video in its entirety, and it just seems like he has to do such mental gymnastics to get to his conclusions. Also, never trust someone who has their comments turned off. (They don’t do it because they were having too many positive comments, they do it because they can’t handle the negative ones)
James White has to do mental gymnastics just to pray. "I pray so that I can be changed by the prayer!" In other words, 'I pray not to make a request but to witness how my own words that God already knows I'm going to say will transform me." This man has such a sad view of what it is to have a relationship with God.
@@truthseeker1532 Yeah, I didn't mean to put the last part but it kind of just hit me at the end. To be fair, that's all of his choosing. He literally has Leighton constantly appealing to him for the last few years to come to his senses but he refuses. I've never wept for the Pharisees. If someone wants to stubbornly stick to their traditions because it makes them feel superior, that's fine. And that's how it is with James. He's in a pit but that's his own fault. Hopefully he wakes up one day. He'll just need to do it himself instead of waiting for God to do it for him.
@@RenardGarzaro Well that is pretty ignorant to say while offering absolutely nothing of substance as to why. Are you a TULIP Calvinist? I hope not because that false doctrine is the dumbest collection of unbiblical doctrine to come along. The sad thing about it is the very foundation of history, sin, and the main reason for mankind to exist is ignored to make the sovereignty argument. Study the root of sin very carefully, it happened before Genesis ch1:2. 👉Isaiah 14 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, 👉I will👈ascend into heaven, 👉I will👈 exalt my throne above the stars of God: 👉I will👈 sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 👉I will👈 ascend above the heights of the clouds; 👉I will👈 be like the most High. 5 times Lucifer conspired to defy the 👉WILL👈 of God. 5 is the number of death in the scriptures. God's 👉WILL👈 for Lucifer is Ezekiel 28 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and 👉I have set thee so👈: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till 👉iniquity was found in thee.👈 loop back up to Isaiah. Freewill alone justifies the future judgements, God is not 👉Willing👈 that any should perish, let alone create vessels for damnation.🙄 Do you know what the main theme of the Bible is?
I just want to remind everyone as a fellow Christian that both Dr. Flowers and Dr. White are godly men who love Jesus, have a deep jealousy for God's Word, and a love for His people. Both of these men work hard to share the truths of God's Scriptures with us and desire to see everyone come to repentance and faith in Jesus. We can argue over who won the debate, who's right or wrong, whose not understanding what, but at the end of the day, we need to embrace each other as brothers in Christ because we will all be spending eternity together in fellowship with God and one another. "By this they will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - Jesus
The only reason he brought out the board with the Greek this time is because his skills were questioned by a real scholar in the language. He is so insecure. 🤦
This verse proves that the Calvinist interpretation of John 6:44 is false: “Then He began to reprimand the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.” Matthew 11:20-21 ““Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.” Luke 10:13 If Calvinism is true, then the only thing that can result in anyone repenting is if God effectually draws them/regenerates them (John 6:44 the Calvinistic interpretation). Calvinism teaches that seeing miracles isn’t sufficient to cause unelect people to repent - but in these verses Jesus says they would have caused repentance in Tyre and Sidon. There are only 3 options for Calvinists: 1 Those miracles would NOT have caused repentance in Tyre and Sidon - which would mean: JESUS WAS WRONG because he said they would. 2 The miracles Jesus is talking about would have been the effectual means God used to cause the people in Tyre and Sidon to repent - but since Jesus said these exact same repentance-effectually-causing miracles had happened in Chorazin and Bethsaida AND we also know the people in Chorazin and Bethsaida didn’t repent, that means: JESUS WAS WRONG about the miracles happening in Chorazin and Bethsaida. The repentance causing miracles can’t have happened there, because those people didn’t repent. 3 Calvinists are wrong about John 6:44.
Because at their root they disagree = on original sin , they will never agree on any soteriological topic , period. It’s a senseless debate that they will never settle …
@@jackjumper4231People equate sovereignty with micromanaging, which I believe is wrong. God is the highest power, ultimate authority and final judge, but he's not interested in directing every possible event, idea, or action his way. God doesn't always get his way as revealed in scripture and, yes, he has the power to push our heads permanently down upon the grindstone, but does he do that? He has a better method of behaviour, in kindness, patience, faith, love and such. Strict Calvinism is really Augustinianism which is Manichaeism which is a blend of Gnosticism and Stoicism.
You ought to put the comment on Jhn 6:45 in your opening, him getting the Greek grammar completely wrong, i.e. the Aorist participle of negation. After all, the man has hung his entire reputation on knowing Greek, it'll be an endless source of fun.
I'm sure he has some silly excuse. He probably thinks people are just generally nasty and spiteful without realizing it's his behavior that riles people up.
Totally planned by God...to test James. Wait til James is told he was destined to be a vessel of wrath....😂🤣😅 Just kidding.. also God told me to say that! Gotta love Calvinism...permission to do everything...... Doesn't the Bible say to not use grace as a license to sin?.....unless of course you have Augustinian grace.....cuz then it is irresistible grace!
How the Calvinist says it's our burden to show how listening, learning, believing etc are abilities we possess is beyond me. These are things that God himself spoke of as if we have the ability to do them. It's all over the Bible. I've collected hundreds of verses where God/Jesus speaks and acts as though we have the ability to obey/learn/believe. If God speaks this way, then it's safe to assume that's how it works. Every command and warning in Scripture bears the implication that it can be heeded. If that's not enough, our daily human experience testifies to the fact that we are free to choose to obey/listen/believe. This is something we observe as true every minute of every day. Why is it suddenly our job to show we aren't capable of these things? It's actually insane... I feel like we've gotten so deep into the debate that we forget how crazy it is the things they're trying to convince us of lol. It's like if I found myself 10 minutes into an argument with a three year old about whether or not unicorns exist
"All scripture is for you but not all scripture is about you" idk who said this but Calvinists really do read themselves into things that have nothing to do with modern day man.
This issue I have observed and have named this issue as a description as a diagnosis of most calvinists I call an "elect complex" and unfortunately on judgment day God almighty will tell all the calvinists your freewill your using your saying I eternally decreed your actions and understanding before the foumdation of the world. Is wrong all those who think they are elect the irony is the thing they deny "freewill" is what they use to deny freewill and call it God's divine sovereignty. Just like atheists who are smart turn very ignorant when God comes up, James white is very smart but his Calvinism makes james very ignorant his 180+ debates have gone to his head and he has had this "elect complex" is very harmfull for all reformed/calvinists today.
@@joshuawoodin to be honest I want to become an Eastern Orthodox catechumen but I am currently attending a Methodist. However previously to being convinced of Eastern Orthodoxy they have not only lived and breathed the Greek language but have never come to the conclusion that Calvinists hold to for 2000+ years. Either Luther and Calvin are some new prophets or reformed theology is a sham. I'll leave anyone reading this to come to their own conclusion.
@@jhonayo4887 well their are no new prophets for the last 2k years, however historically I see the most accurate is eastern orthadoxy, and calvinism is very wrong and correct me if I am wrong the EO did not catechise martin luther or John calvin and the EO has no issues with calvinism which is great. I see the reformation as needed in the 1.500's also out of the reformation most cults since the 1.500's did come out of the protestant branch. But as all the bad things luther has done he was 100% correct in protesting the teachings of the time with the 95 theeses about mostly indulgences and purgatory but the reformers are not prophets and alot that came from them the last 500 years has been a sham like jehovas witnesses and mormons and so many cults today, and calvinism is extremely harmful. Yes God is sovereign, but the calvinist who sees God as divine sovereignty does not mean the same thing when we say God is sovereign, their wrong view of God makes God the author of all evil that has ever happened and that will happen in the future.
@@RenardGarzaro 99%? Try again. Did you know even some Old Testament prophets such as Jonah spoke to GENTILES? What you said about the 99% is ridiculous and not true at all.
Well said Dr. Leighton. You are correct in your analysis of James White in the most gracious manner possible, and your position is correct, as you did verify by Scripture your position regarding "drawing" and what it means. James White is reading his own presupposed Calvinist doctrine into "drawing" and -- except for his *fallacious argument* about Greek Grammar as if, by grammar, he can verify his position and prove you wrong. He failed on that miserably; but in the debate, you could not effectively debate him on the Greek grammar he was using because of his presumed experience and credibility with Greek grammar. James White never proved his contention that "drawing" is an effectual call; and so, he never proved the main contention that "Unconditional Election" is taught in "John 6:44-45." However, in the debate, since you know that the burden of proof is on James White, then it is my opinion that you put too much effort into proving your position, and attempting to prove James White wrong about how you interpret the text. I think that, in my opinion, you could have constructed your opening statement, rebuttle, and debate questions, in a way that makes James White do the work to prove his position from the context of "John 6:44-45," which is impossible to do without introducing other Scriptures. But that is the work that James White was supposed to do in my opinion. If that were done, then he could not keep accusing you of sticking to the text of debate: "John 6:44-45." Instead, the tables were turned; in that, you were obliged to let James White make you prove the contention for your understanding of "John 6:44-45," and trying to prove that his Calvinist views are wrong, all of which is not your job in this debate. I will say though that Lord Jesus plainly addressed and explained his position in John 6, including what "drawing" means in "John 6:45." Since it was up to James White to prove his contention that unconditional election is taught in John 6:44-45, then I would have kept pounding home to James White in rebuttle and questioning that he must prove, by Scripture, what he claims "drawing," "having heard," and "having learned" means to win the debate. Therefore, whenever he does try to prove his position, but fails to show this by the Scriptures, then you keep pounding home why his evidence does not prove his contention, which is much easier to do than you trying to prove your position to James White to prove him wrong. There is nothing to prove him wrong on, because he never actually gave credible evidence for his contention. The only fault you have in the debate is that you are not a Greek scholar. However, you had months to prepare to study the Greek grammar of only two verses: John 6:44-45. That is not a daunting task by any stretch of the imagination. Knowing how James White debates, you would have done well to study the Greek grammar of John 6:44-45 as well, to prepare for James White's tactics in debate. So, by default, you won the debate, because James White did not prove that unconditional election is actually what Lord Jesus was teaching in "John 6:44-45." All he did was presuppose what he feels "draw" means, and he gave fallacious Greek grammar arguments to try to prove that "having listened" and "having learned" support his contention as being "passive," and are aorist participles. You were the objective and most knowledgeable (Scripturally) in the debate, but James White did stick to the context, and was attempting to debate on the key Scripture: "John 6:44-45." Since the burden of proof was on him, you should have made him stick to "John 6:44-45" to prove his contention, instead of him keep directing you to stick to those verses. That is my opinion. And I am by no means experienced in debates, but I have watched many of them.
If God was like the Calvinists claim... He'd be like a man who created a house and put people inside it and ordained and caused them to mess it all up and closed the windows so they couldn't see outside and locked the door so it couldn't be opened from the inside and made them all fight each other as it was slowly ignited by him. In order to first go in and rescue any of them, first he had to send his son into the house to be burned to death because he was so enraged about the disaster that the people inside the house were causing (even though he caused them to be like it) and he needed to judge and condemn someone else first in order to get his anger sorted out before even thinking about actually getting their attention and rescuing anyone in the fire (he did plan this all before creating and has actually planned an even worse fire than this in the end, but of course this mission of his son has much more to do with sorting his wrath / anger out that he has for the imbeciles than creating a safe space for them with himself, righting all wrongs, restoring order, showing his righteousness, defeating death and their real enemies so that they wouldn't end up in that fire - because of what they had - largely - brought upon themselves. But actually before building the house he had chosen to rescue only a couple out of the many dozen in the house. He could have saved them all of course but he just didn't feel like it; and of course this all goes to glorify him in the end for being so gracious for creating such a setup in the first place and saving at least one or two of them. Great 🚫😉😂
How does this fraud get 'made to be the taught ones" out of the adjective Did-ak-toi in Jhn 6:45? There is *nothing* in the Greek that suggests that an adjective be read as compulsory descriptor.
Hey Dr. Flowers, quick question and wondering if you can suggest a translation that is more of a pro provisionism version ? I have always liked the ESV and noticed why the joke (but accurate) acronym of ESV is the elect sovereign version the ESV looks more and more like it pushes calvinism and less of an accurate bible translation, Thanks!
@@SaintPatrick33 if I may ask, why the KJV ? I see everyone has presuppositions some more than others and every translation has a lens that they see scripture through, and calvinists are wrong at the foundation (not saying your a KJV only) but also a wrong presup is the KJV only camp and so many presuppositions are wrong and others are much better, like provisionism.
Many of the Modern Translations are/ were produced by Calvinists, including the NIV, the ESV, the Legacy standard,( John MacArthur) ect. You can't go wrong with the KJV. For example, it doesn't use the word " Sovereign " even once!
This is why you cannot debate Calvinists scripturally. They are utterly incapable of entertaining other interpretations of scripture, let alone accepting the idea that other interpretations MIGHT be true. The only way to debate them is philosophically. Bring to light the logical conclusions of their worldview, like infant damnation.
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
If God predetermined all of this confusion among denominations, then He contradicts His own word when He said through the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:33 [33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I wasn't raised in a church or any particular denomination, I got saved at a random Bible study as a kid... I'm not saying I can't be biased, but I really do try to be fair... I followed Leighton's argument in the debate about people rejecting God, refusing to come, not believing etc... It made sense to me, the passages literally say that. James lost me, he never made an argument for his view, nor dealt with many of the arguments Leighton made. A bunch of making issues about not reading a verse back into it, or something the Greek says. None of it seemed solid to me... Not being able to follow it might be on me, but that was my takeaway.
Leighton is so gracious and doesn't assume White has bad motives, but after awhile, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. White is not stupid, he knows he is dishonest in his tactics by using character assassinations, red herrings, and malicious accusations to respond to believers who disagree with his presupposed Calvinism. Dr. White needs to be called out everytime he uses these tactics because it's sinful; he's prideful and not an honest debater who approaches discussions with godly character. I'm okay with Calvinists who are willing to defend their view by providing evidence for it, but not those who focus on attacking the person.
I think I got it: James White has two types of teaching and/or learning with relation to John 6:44 and salvation. One that is effectual by God (i.e. like a hybrid of a Jedi mind trick fused with Matrix Neo's "I know Kung Fu" kind), and one that is the normal meaning of the word. Now all we need is a biblical precedent for the former...
James White is an incompetent interlocutor. He legitimately doesn't understand his opponent's position, doesn't want to understand it, and can't read the passage literally before putting in his presuppositions.
The reason White does what he does is that he doesn't debate in good faith. Calling those verbs passive while they are clearly active means he either isn't very good with Greek or he was actively lying and hoping to slide it past everyone.
He explained later that what he meant by "passive" is they are actions where one is taking in something from outside themselves. They are learning something from outside themselves, hearing something from outside themselves. 3 things on that: 1) DUH! Of course you learn and hear things from outside yourself. Are you supposed to learn things from inside yourself? 2) What White described is called "external" not passive. Things from outside yourself are external. Use the right word, James. 3) James, as a Greek teacher, ought to know that passive is a grammatical term and should know better than to use it the way he did in the context of the debate.
It's not that White still isn't getting it. No, it's the fact that he's unwilling to admit he's wrong. It's a pride thing driven by the camp / church he's in. Face it, much of the attention, prominence and following James has owes much to his militant Calvinism and books. He has a huge Reformed audience. And he well knows that to back up now, admit he's wrong, that's he's distorted the clear meanings found across the New Testament that, God loves all and OFFERS His salvation to ALL. He's put all of his eggs in this Five Point logic box - but the box is leaking and stinks - and I think he knows it. So, despite considerable Scriptural-based theology redundantly shown and explained to him, White's stance is to simply double-down and act as if he's standing up for God's word. And just like so many others who have come to fame preaching a distorted or harmful version of the Gospel, he'd rather keep his career, following, and main source of income, than to repent of the harm he's doing to the cause of Christ. If Five Point teachings were true, a sincere desire to evangelize would seem highly suspect - I mean, if God had already decided FOR people whether they could come to Him, and He supposedly compels them irresistibly, then those saved would be saved no matter what influences, presentations or overtures Christians might make to unbelievers. I can imagine, many unbelievers, upon hearing the specifics as to what the Reformed believe about Salvation, might well conclude, "You know, IF that is true, I'm pretty sure that God hasn't chosen ME - as I have no inclination whatsoever towards Him anyway." I can just hear unbelievers further pondering the Reformed views about God, thinking that, "Wow, while this (Reformed) God COULD desire to save all so-willing, He's nonetheless orchestrated for the vast majority of mankind to have NO opportunity whatsoever to embrace Christ - what a brutal, unloving God, whom would abandon humanity in hopelessness now, and into terrible punishment thereafter." Yeah, like that's gonna draw people to Christ. Which is why many Reformed Churches don't do a lot of talking about those God has supposedly already prevented from Salvation - because THAT would be a MAJOR "pew emptier!" Further, one might surmise: "So, this God tells US to love EVERYONE - and one's neighbor as ourselves - and yet, HE hates those He has pre-empted from Heaven, to a certainty of Hell (in other words, Calvinism ultimately believes GOD caused their sin of rejection, great sin (Oh, but doesn't Scripture tell us that God NEVER causes anyone to sin?). And that, my friends, is how the Reformed are damaging the cause of Christ as well as maligning His Holy character! It's a terrible tragedy!
How does Genesis 6-6 make any sense if you are a Calvinist? The Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart Genesis6-6. If men only do what God makes them do and they have no free will, then why would God be sorry that he made them? That makes no sense at all under Calvinism.
What is telling of the glaring difference between White and Leighton (as if you couldn't tell already) is that both are criticized by a Greek scholar concerning their performance in the debate, but only one of them has their critic on their program for a discussion while the other raves on endlessly about how uninformed and unworthy this literal scholar is to dare criticize him!! What really shows his arrogance is when White said "Its obvious he hasn't read any of MY books on the matter! " no joke? Im guessing James White books aren't required reading to become a Greek scholar? Of course, that's news to James!
"So you have one twin who is fallen in Adam and he will receive justice and you have another twin who is also fallen in Adam and he will receive grace. And what's being said is , 'God can't do that.'" Correct. GOD CANNOT DO THAT! Not for lack of power, but because he cannot lie and no baby is a soul that HAS SINNED! God has said that the soul that sinneth shal perish.
So if God predestines someone to hell to demonstrate his justice and one to heaven to demonstrate his grace, one cannot ignore the implication that God then demonstrates that he prioritizes justice over grace since so many more reject him than repents.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Can't wait for the new channel.
He didn't miss the main point
He AVOIDED IT!!!!!!!!!
This is the truth!
leave it to good ol Saint Patrick@@SaintPatrick33
Not
Amen
Given the dispute at hand, this is such a deep cut 😂😭
The reason James White doesn't need notes for a debate is because he has memorized the acronym DEBATE... Deny, Evade, Blame, And TULIP Everything. ;)
Obviously
Nice.
Clever
That is, by far, the best and most effective summary of James White's debate style. Well done!
😂
Good for you, keep it up, you’re exposing the falsehoods of Calvinism!
White has a doctorate in missing the point.
I feel it's more accurate to say that Leighton participated in the debate, because Dr White (as is standard for him) just assumed that his position was true and didn't bother to prove it. Saying Leighton won is accurate, but I think he was the only one actually participating in the debate.
This is exactly how I felt he didn't really respond to what Layton said he just wanted to argue about how late and didn't give him the textbook answer that he would expect from a calvinist instead of it made the debate actually kind of sad
Totally agree
You're probably right. The fact that White started saying Flowers conceded the debate because he said "If your presuppositions were true, then they would be true" is a pretty good indication that the guy is not interested at all in engaging in any sort of debate. He wants to *shut down* debate.
I love your passion and I love your point at 54:00. Yes, that is exactly right and you should be passionate and not back down when fellow believers soil the glory and good name of our king. They may think they are bringing Him honor but they do no such thing when they lay the filth of sin at His feet and His responsibility. Please, keep pushing back, I love to see it!
Thank you Dr. Flowers! I'm glad you r doing this more full time
"You cheated!" -James White's best compliment.
known concession speech lingo
He didn’t miss it. He dodged it.
"I would gladly debate you again. I had FUN." 😂 you're the best Leighton. Praying you never lose that fire for this most important spiritual battle
Great job defending the character of God and exposing Calvinism.
@@RenardGarzaro Love and all the virtues that flow from it.
@@RenardGarzaro Calvinism attributes evil to God as an example.
@@Willy_jackson9 but they won't flat out say that. In fact, if you tell them what calvinism implies with its logical ends. They call you a demon spawn, and say you believe in lies from hell. Not even kidding. That happened to me.
@@knxcholx yes. I agree with you
I’m predestined to say Leighton Flowers won the debate.
Me too!
And Flowers is predestined to disagree with James White, so what is White complaining about? 😄
@@mannyedwards2820
Even more glory for God!
Who says Leighton Flowers won the debate¿ l don’t think so…
@kgar5String I will tell jokes no matter what if something is funny. For example, do you think waterboarding is a fun beach activity?
And if you are wrong, proud about it, and cannot even debate in good faith (White), then how can someone take you seriously? The guy has been spewing the ad hominem fallacy for decades... not a great commercial for getting a doctorate (and yes, I have one).
Seriously... I mean that literally.
A new teaching channel! I hope it is Christology 101 but I am excited about anything. I love Soteriology 101. Thank you for all you do.
The biggest thing about that debate that bothered me was that James didn't want to deal with any other texts and he didn't want to deal with the the propositional idea of Rob the reprobate so why was he debating
Brother Leighton, I need to say thank you for all that you do in defending against Calvinism. Your passion and consistency is inspiring to so many of us that aspire to also defend against these doctrines.
White didn’t miss the point. He played dodgeball and avoided the point(s). Your problem is you’re too nice a guy. With someone like White you have to learn to do what trial attorneys do when a witness dodges a question. You come back. Again. And again. And you highlight and emphasize the dodging. And when a witness falsifies testimony, or says something to mislead, you NEVER let him forget it. You play that sound bite again and again. You have a great and gracious spirit, Bro Flowers. It’s one of the reasons I watch you. Don’t let a throat cutting, hard-hearted lawyer get you off track. 😊
Go Leighton! We support your work dismantle Calvinism. Hope someday you come to Malaysia
Love you Leighton! ❤️
Your determination to step up to James White means more to the Church than you realize.
This past debate, the baalgate, etc, and following responses have really showcased James White's constant condescending attitude from a place of ignorance.
I honestly think James White CANNOT even hypothetically consider the possibility that his presupposition could be incorrect.
"My view MUST be true, therefore I'm right."
Not a good look. 😮💨
I grew up hard 5 point calvinist. I also couldn't see the opposing view because of presuppositions. The only reason I was able to escape was because I purposely started looking at the issue with the intent to understand the opposing view. In order to do that you seen to drop your presuppositions. JW doesn't seem to be able to do that.
Exactly bro , Mr White can say all day long he is not using his cálvanist prepositions, but he is , and if he is not , well bye bye tulip , that’s what Mr White was trying to do with
Mr Flowers, to make him drop provisionism , that’s where he was aiming at .
Mr White knows that if he drops tulip the same way Mr Flowers should be expected of him, he’s a goner. Plain and simple .
In the other hand Provision , God making a way through Christ is enough provision.
But Mr White loves his tulip,he believes that is true . He’s holding on to this crap for dear life .
Why in the world would God make a way for unbelievers, for the sick as Jesus stated , it doesn’t make any sense in tulip ,
Mr White view is the opposite, God made a way for the righteous , all though they can sin all they long , they were born that way somehow , they were born righteous.
In the calvanist view , Why did he heal the leopard? And outsider , separated from his own people , does it ring the bell, wouldn’t that make you think that is how Jesus felt and understood and then heal him?
In the calvanist view well Jesus would of been justified if he did not heal the leopard either way, but this is really what they believe, they would of love for Jesus to do the opposite in healing the leopard.
Every time I hear White extol his knowledge of Greek, I think, "Yeah, and 'casa' in Spanish means 'house'."
See that's where you're wrong. "Casa" is a passive participle. So it means "home".
@@daltonbrasier5491😂😂😂
@@daltonbrasier5491😂
🤣🤣🤣
Exactly.😂
Fortunely God predestined me to be repulsed by Calvinism. No matter how much I listen to the Calvinist proof text, God just doesn't want to make me understand Calvinism
I have to admit I’ve lost a little of respect for Dr. White after this. He has shown more respect for many of his opponents but treats Dr. Flowers with utter contempt and disrespect.
His arrogance is off-putting in the extreme.
@@mrgrossism yes. It’s sad. Really sad because I have admired him. His work in Catholicism and in scriptural criticism is great. His debate with folks like Trent Horn and Dr. Ehrman were very good. Stuff like this just makes him look like he just wants to win instead of getting the truth out and even antagonizing Dr. Flowers.
I'm in strong agreement. I watch the Dividing Line and have seen a great many debates James White took part in. He has developed some very bad habits in debating. He holds his opponents to standards he doesn't follow. He quoted other scripture in his opening, but when Leighton brings in other verses to support his view White acts like some great sin has been committed against him and pleads with the moderator to rule for him. It's not a good look for White.
@@mrgrossism that's exactly why I couldn't finish watching the debate
@@EmptyDisc1 he has a legit degree and teaches history (at least).
White reviewed the debate and realizes how terribly he did and how utterly he got spanked by brother Leighton and he's throwing everything negative tactic he can at Leighton to try n save face but it's not working obviously .
Leighton, several times you had mentioned in defense of the attacks of White about context. It's ironic that he in previous debates, including the one you and he did years ago, he kept barking " Context, context." Way to go, Flowers. Keep defending God's incredible love for us in spite of our choice to turn away from Him.
It was grace that taught my heart to fear.
Dr Flowers, You are the best.
You totally nail it every time.. You are rational, cordial and biblical.
No wonder why Dr White can't answer your questions.
Thank you for all your work and your passion for God who wants all men to be saved.
❤
Preach preach it brother preach out God is good.👍
He can’t go back on this out of pride and all the content he has put out on the topic. He has a natural fear of being “wrong” publicly and having to concede to a person.
Even if I agrees with White on every point....I dont....if I did his delivery is so disgusting and disturbingly unloving it would be a discouraging message for any non believer or young/new Christian . Satan loves this behavior. Completely ashamed of the behavior of many of us Christian Brothers
Leighton should have broken out in Spanish for no reason
😂😂
Calvinist's are the only Christians I know that get out of bed everyday for the sole purpose of arguing.
A calvinist once fell down the stairs.
Upon getting himself up and seeing he wasn't injured replied,
"Glad that's over with!"😅
to be fair, IF the Calvinist are correct, what they are doing trying to convince people is a good virtue. Its unfortunate TULIP is just not supported biblically. Thats also why Dr Flowers and others are also within their right to present correctly scripture in context. Trying to find the correct interpretation of the text should be our goal as Christians
@@RenardGarzaro Let us know how that goes for you. I've seen your other comments.
@h2s142 What do you mean? Are you trying to say no one should have the right to correct doctrine if you think its wrong?
Titus 1:9 (speaking about the qualification of an elder)
He must be devoted to the trustworthy message that agrees with what we teach, so that he may be able to encourage others with healthy doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
@h2s142 by that logic do you think its wrong to critique the roman catholic church for their wrong doctrine due to “scoring carnal points”?
they at least hold to the core doctrines do we not address the additional doctrines added due to traditions?
Did anyone else notice that JW is doing this new thing with the big screen projector probably because of the awesome exposition Leighton Flowers did with slides and visual elements on the debate? I was impressed! 🤩😝😉
He's had that TV for a long time.
@@MineStrongth oh ok. I haven’t seen him using it at all, and it’s interesting that he got to use it after the debate. 😉
According to the doctrine of unconditional winning, I declared you to be the winner of the debate.
They Always miss the point that’s why this debate has been going on forever
@@RenardGarzaro thank you o high authority on the bible! if my eyes and ears are closed to the scriptures, its because GOD ORDAINED IT. dont you people get it? you're wasting your time condemning heathen like me. go out and preach the word! oh wait that wouldn't benefit anyone, because the elect will be saved no matter what, the reprobate will be damned no matter what. fools
@@RenardGarzaro Smh... This is another exmaple of Calvinism blaming God for Christians' supposed "blindness" to the scriptures. Thus another reason to reject Calvinism.
@@gk.4102brother, we will be labelled as either sovereignly blinded by God for His glory or not believers at all. Or maybe there are other reasons why true believers disagree on positions?
@@botbydblud _"...sovereignly blinded by God for His glory..."_
Then Calvinism would be insinuating that God is a diety of deception who deceives His own children just like Satan does, and a liar who leads us into falsehood when He promised to do the opposite (John 16:13a)
"...or not believers at all."_
Few Calvinists do this, but most know how devastating it'll be for them to treat all non-Calvinists Christians as unsaved.
_"...Or maybe there are other reasons why true believers disagree on positions?"_
Yep freewill.
Question: Has Dr. White's channel ever allowed comments? How do people interact with him?
You know I wish I had seen this earlier because I was rather angry when I saw that he didn't have comments there because if he's not open to hear other people why should I listen to him. I mean that's what a reprobate would do right in a calvinistic view They Are Walled off and they are turned off to God and absent God doing something they're not going to listen. I stopped following his channel because I realized there was no point. If the stuff he's putting up is just for his church to consume One Direction and they interact another way that's fine but it's obviously not for those of us who don't participate in his congregation
Calvinists pray to him.
I engaged him on Twitter, I was ways respectful, he Muted me, and made some offhanded comments.
he typically burns them upon green wood in Geneva
@@kevinjypiter6445 LOL. OK, thanks.
Didn't God predetermine before the foundation of the world that you would do all this stuff to annoy James White? So why is he complaining -- he should praise God that his will is being done, and thank you for being God's tool to accomplish his will.
Keep doing this, Dr. Flowers! Amen amen amen, God loves & draws all 🙌🏻 It’s not His fault when people reject Him.
Get Joel back on! 🎉🎉🎉
I second this.
Honestly this debate was an example of how James has the potential of taking a single verse from the bible and ignoring all the other supporting verses from the same chapter and create a totally different theology that the bible doesn't support.
I commented on several videos: “How can infant damnation not be a key issue in Unconditional Election?”
Everyone just said he’s said in the past he won’t debate it, or it’s uncouth to bring it up… but nobody actually addressed the actual issue. Seems like they won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole
Why would they?
There's no from or back to go. It's the death of calvinism
They won't touch it because, of all the evil fruits of Calvinism, this one is,perhaps, the ugliest!!
This has been very educational!
Love your heart for the character of God! Declaring the character of God biblically, lovingly, boldly, and truthfully truly is glorifying Him! Amen and Amen!
What we have here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach....
James white understands the point of contention but he is avoiding it.
It's starting to remind me of Juror #3 in '12 Angry Men.' At the climax of the story, he realizes he's starting to understand, but he doesn't want to understand, so he goes into denial and rails even angrier in favor of the guilty verdict. Except White has a lot more at stake; if he's wrong, his entire life's work has been for nothing. He'll die on this hill.
“Provisionists”hate the decree” “ no we love the decree, we just hate the idea God is decreeing evil things , that’s why we love the decree” . Still my favourite moment ..
Elephant in the room: White is the definition of a Pharisee. He thinks he knows God, doesn’t. Argues with God after making up rules he, himself, doesn’t apply to himself.
Why are we treating White as a brother in Christ? He’s got a different god, a different Christ, a different method of salvation, therefore a different gospel.
Please, someone, explain why we need to extend him the grace we extend to siblings.
For a while now every time I read about the Pharisees I automatically imagine one that looks James White standing at the front.
This is REALLY interesting. I've debated many calvinists online and a lot of them cannot say they have an interpretation. They will say something like,"We have the truth." James White seems to be doing the exact same thing. They have an interpretation but don't want to admit it. Its crazy and not logical. The day that James white admits that he has an interpretation is the day that he might switch his interpretation.👍
So what White's actually arguing is that he can find a way to interpret this passage so that it fits the system he's already completely committed to. Big deal. That's not exegesis, bro.
I watched White’s video in its entirety, and it just seems like he has to do such mental gymnastics to get to his conclusions. Also, never trust someone who has their comments turned off. (They don’t do it because they were having too many positive comments, they do it because they can’t handle the negative ones)
James White has to do mental gymnastics just to pray.
"I pray so that I can be changed by the prayer!"
In other words, 'I pray not to make a request but to witness how my own words that God already knows I'm going to say will transform me."
This man has such a sad view of what it is to have a relationship with God.
@@r.rodriguez4991 I laughed at first, but I guess that’s not really funny. It is truly sad
@@truthseeker1532 Yeah, I didn't mean to put the last part but it kind of just hit me at the end.
To be fair, that's all of his choosing. He literally has Leighton constantly appealing to him for the last few years to come to his senses but he refuses. I've never wept for the Pharisees. If someone wants to stubbornly stick to their traditions because it makes them feel superior, that's fine.
And that's how it is with James. He's in a pit but that's his own fault. Hopefully he wakes up one day. He'll just need to do it himself instead of waiting for God to do it for him.
Leighton won the debate 😊👍
@@RenardGarzaroand White is STILL wrong... not to mention a bad faith debater.
@@RenardGarzaro Well that is pretty ignorant to say while offering absolutely nothing of substance as to why. Are you a TULIP Calvinist? I hope not because that false doctrine is the dumbest collection of unbiblical doctrine to come along. The sad thing about it is the very foundation of history, sin, and the main reason for mankind to exist is ignored to make the sovereignty argument.
Study the root of sin very carefully, it happened before Genesis ch1:2.
👉Isaiah 14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, 👉I will👈ascend into heaven, 👉I will👈 exalt my throne above the stars of God: 👉I will👈 sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 👉I will👈 ascend above the heights of the clouds; 👉I will👈 be like the most High.
5 times Lucifer conspired to defy the 👉WILL👈 of God. 5 is the number of death in the scriptures.
God's 👉WILL👈 for Lucifer is
Ezekiel 28
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and 👉I have set thee so👈: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till 👉iniquity was found in thee.👈 loop back up to Isaiah.
Freewill alone justifies the future judgements, God is not 👉Willing👈 that any should perish, let alone create vessels for damnation.🙄
Do you know what the main theme of the Bible is?
Calvinism all boils down to a spirit of error that corrupts and blinds people to the truth of God's word.
Can't wait to hear your teaching on other topics!
I just want to remind everyone as a fellow Christian that both Dr. Flowers and Dr. White are godly men who love Jesus, have a deep jealousy for God's Word, and a love for His people. Both of these men work hard to share the truths of God's Scriptures with us and desire to see everyone come to repentance and faith in Jesus.
We can argue over who won the debate, who's right or wrong, whose not understanding what, but at the end of the day, we need to embrace each other as brothers in Christ because we will all be spending eternity together in fellowship with God and one another.
"By this they will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - Jesus
The only reason he brought out the board with the Greek this time is because his skills were questioned by a real scholar in the language. He is so insecure. 🤦
@-the_dark_knight, I have to agree with you there. Gotta show the homies that he's still up on his Greek game!
This verse proves that the Calvinist interpretation of John 6:44 is false:
“Then He began to reprimand the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”
Matthew 11:20-21
““Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.”
Luke 10:13
If Calvinism is true, then the only thing that can result in anyone repenting is if God effectually draws them/regenerates them (John 6:44 the Calvinistic interpretation).
Calvinism teaches that seeing miracles isn’t sufficient to cause unelect people to repent - but in these verses Jesus says they would have caused repentance in Tyre and Sidon.
There are only 3 options for Calvinists:
1
Those miracles would NOT have caused repentance in Tyre and Sidon - which would mean: JESUS WAS WRONG because he said they would.
2
The miracles Jesus is talking about would have been the effectual means God used to cause the people in Tyre and Sidon to repent - but since Jesus said these exact same repentance-effectually-causing miracles had happened in Chorazin and Bethsaida AND we also know the people in Chorazin and Bethsaida didn’t repent, that means: JESUS WAS WRONG about the miracles happening in Chorazin and Bethsaida. The repentance causing miracles can’t have happened there, because those people didn’t repent.
3
Calvinists are wrong about John 6:44.
When will James white debate this text with Leighton Flowers?
Love you Brother. Im not even sorry anymore for James. I think God himself is saying enough James. ❤
@@RenardGarzaro James 3:15-16. Anything else?
Because at their root they disagree = on original sin , they will never agree on any soteriological topic , period. It’s a senseless debate that they will never settle …
@@jackjumper4231People equate sovereignty with micromanaging, which I believe is wrong.
God is the highest power, ultimate authority and final judge, but he's not interested in directing every possible event, idea, or action his way.
God doesn't always get his way as revealed in scripture and, yes, he has the power to push our heads permanently down upon the grindstone, but does he do that? He has a better method of behaviour, in kindness, patience, faith, love and such.
Strict Calvinism is really Augustinianism which is Manichaeism which is a blend of Gnosticism and Stoicism.
Calvinists are nearly always presupposing their false theology in the text. It’s really annoying and truly deceptive, scripture twisting at its worst.
You ought to put the comment on Jhn 6:45 in your opening, him getting the Greek grammar completely wrong, i.e. the Aorist participle of negation. After all, the man has hung his entire reputation on knowing Greek, it'll be an endless source of fun.
I noticed James White blocks all of his comments on TH-cam? Hmmm…
I'm sure he has some silly excuse. He probably thinks people are just generally nasty and spiteful without realizing it's his behavior that riles people up.
Totally planned by God...to test James. Wait til James is told he was destined to be a vessel of wrath....😂🤣😅 Just kidding.. also God told me to say that! Gotta love Calvinism...permission to do everything......
Doesn't the Bible say to not use grace as a license to sin?.....unless of course you have Augustinian grace.....cuz then it is irresistible grace!
How the Calvinist says it's our burden to show how listening, learning, believing etc are abilities we possess is beyond me. These are things that God himself spoke of as if we have the ability to do them. It's all over the Bible. I've collected hundreds of verses where God/Jesus speaks and acts as though we have the ability to obey/learn/believe. If God speaks this way, then it's safe to assume that's how it works. Every command and warning in Scripture bears the implication that it can be heeded. If that's not enough, our daily human experience testifies to the fact that we are free to choose to obey/listen/believe. This is something we observe as true every minute of every day. Why is it suddenly our job to show we aren't capable of these things? It's actually insane... I feel like we've gotten so deep into the debate that we forget how crazy it is the things they're trying to convince us of lol. It's like if I found myself 10 minutes into an argument with a three year old about whether or not unicorns exist
20:47 As a presuppositionalist he has "jaundis colored glasses clamped firmly on his face".
"All scripture is for you but not all scripture is about you" idk who said this but Calvinists really do read themselves into things that have nothing to do with modern day man.
This issue I have observed and have named this issue as a description as a diagnosis of most calvinists I call an "elect complex" and unfortunately on judgment day God almighty will tell all the calvinists your freewill your using your saying I eternally decreed your actions and understanding before the foumdation of the world. Is wrong all those who think they are elect the irony is the thing they deny "freewill" is what they use to deny freewill and call it God's divine sovereignty. Just like atheists who are smart turn very ignorant when God comes up, James white is very smart but his Calvinism makes james very ignorant his 180+ debates have gone to his head and he has had this "elect complex" is very harmfull for all reformed/calvinists today.
@@joshuawoodin to be honest I want to become an Eastern Orthodox catechumen but I am currently attending a Methodist. However previously to being convinced of Eastern Orthodoxy they have not only lived and breathed the Greek language but have never come to the conclusion that Calvinists hold to for 2000+ years. Either Luther and Calvin are some new prophets or reformed theology is a sham. I'll leave anyone reading this to come to their own conclusion.
@@jhonayo4887 well their are no new prophets for the last 2k years, however historically I see the most accurate is eastern orthadoxy, and calvinism is very wrong and correct me if I am wrong the EO did not catechise martin luther or John calvin and the EO has no issues with calvinism which is great. I see the reformation as needed in the 1.500's also out of the reformation most cults since the 1.500's did come out of the protestant branch. But as all the bad things luther has done he was 100% correct in protesting the teachings of the time with the 95 theeses about mostly indulgences and purgatory but the reformers are not prophets and alot that came from them the last 500 years has been a sham like jehovas witnesses and mormons and so many cults today, and calvinism is extremely harmful. Yes God is sovereign, but the calvinist who sees God as divine sovereignty does not mean the same thing when we say God is sovereign, their wrong view of God makes God the author of all evil that has ever happened and that will happen in the future.
@@RenardGarzaro 99%? Try again. Did you know even some Old Testament prophets such as Jonah spoke to GENTILES? What you said about the 99% is ridiculous and not true at all.
@@RenardGarzaro what do you mean ? The new testament is not for us ?
God didn't determine Leighton to let things go.😂
That's predestination humor in case you missed it. Lol
Well said Dr. Leighton. You are correct in your analysis of James White in the most gracious manner possible, and your position is correct, as you did verify by Scripture your position regarding "drawing" and what it means. James White is reading his own presupposed Calvinist doctrine into "drawing" and -- except for his *fallacious argument* about Greek Grammar as if, by grammar, he can verify his position and prove you wrong. He failed on that miserably; but in the debate, you could not effectively debate him on the Greek grammar he was using because of his presumed experience and credibility with Greek grammar. James White never proved his contention that "drawing" is an effectual call; and so, he never proved the main contention that "Unconditional Election" is taught in "John 6:44-45."
However, in the debate, since you know that the burden of proof is on James White, then it is my opinion that you put too much effort into proving your position, and attempting to prove James White wrong about how you interpret the text. I think that, in my opinion, you could have constructed your opening statement, rebuttle, and debate questions, in a way that makes James White do the work to prove his position from the context of "John 6:44-45," which is impossible to do without introducing other Scriptures. But that is the work that James White was supposed to do in my opinion. If that were done, then he could not keep accusing you of sticking to the text of debate: "John 6:44-45." Instead, the tables were turned; in that, you were obliged to let James White make you prove the contention for your understanding of "John 6:44-45," and trying to prove that his Calvinist views are wrong, all of which is not your job in this debate.
I will say though that Lord Jesus plainly addressed and explained his position in John 6, including what "drawing" means in "John 6:45." Since it was up to James White to prove his contention that unconditional election is taught in John 6:44-45, then I would have kept pounding home to James White in rebuttle and questioning that he must prove, by Scripture, what he claims "drawing," "having heard," and "having learned" means to win the debate. Therefore, whenever he does try to prove his position, but fails to show this by the Scriptures, then you keep pounding home why his evidence does not prove his contention, which is much easier to do than you trying to prove your position to James White to prove him wrong. There is nothing to prove him wrong on, because he never actually gave credible evidence for his contention.
The only fault you have in the debate is that you are not a Greek scholar. However, you had months to prepare to study the Greek grammar of only two verses: John 6:44-45. That is not a daunting task by any stretch of the imagination. Knowing how James White debates, you would have done well to study the Greek grammar of John 6:44-45 as well, to prepare for James White's tactics in debate.
So, by default, you won the debate, because James White did not prove that unconditional election is actually what Lord Jesus was teaching in "John 6:44-45." All he did was presuppose what he feels "draw" means, and he gave fallacious Greek grammar arguments to try to prove that "having listened" and "having learned" support his contention as being "passive," and are aorist participles. You were the objective and most knowledgeable (Scripturally) in the debate, but James White did stick to the context, and was attempting to debate on the key Scripture: "John 6:44-45." Since the burden of proof was on him, you should have made him stick to "John 6:44-45" to prove his contention, instead of him keep directing you to stick to those verses. That is my opinion. And I am by no means experienced in debates, but I have watched many of them.
Calvinist "compatibalistic" free will deniers are on par with Flat Earthers...
but even more frustrating 👌😂
The Flowers of the field destroys the faux Tulip.
We are all predestined to recognize that Dr. Flowers won the debate, again.
If God was like the Calvinists claim...
He'd be like a man who created a house and put people inside it and ordained and caused them to mess it all up and closed the windows so they couldn't see outside and locked the door so it couldn't be opened from the inside and made them all fight each other as it was slowly ignited by him.
In order to first go in and rescue any of them, first he had to send his son into the house to be burned to death because he was so enraged about the disaster that the people inside the house were causing (even though he caused them to be like it) and he needed to judge and condemn someone else first in order to get his anger sorted out before even thinking about actually getting their attention and rescuing anyone in the fire (he did plan this all before creating and has actually planned an even worse fire than this in the end, but of course this mission of his son has much more to do with sorting his wrath / anger out that he has for the imbeciles than creating a safe space for them with himself, righting all wrongs, restoring order, showing his righteousness, defeating death and their real enemies so that they wouldn't end up in that fire - because of what they had - largely - brought upon themselves.
But actually before building the house he had chosen to rescue only a couple out of the many dozen in the house. He could have saved them all of course but he just didn't feel like it; and of course this all goes to glorify him in the end for being so gracious for creating such a setup in the first place and saving at least one or two of them.
Great 🚫😉😂
It seems that the crux of issue is whether one can respond freely to the "drawing."
Salvation is of the LORD
JW does not miss it. He ignores it. He won't ever admit to being wrong. I bet his wife would say that about him too.
How does this fraud get 'made to be the taught ones" out of the adjective Did-ak-toi in Jhn 6:45? There is *nothing* in the Greek that suggests that an adjective be read as compulsory descriptor.
🔥 Amen, amen, amen!
Hey Dr. Flowers, quick question and wondering if you can suggest a translation that is more of a pro provisionism version ? I have always liked the ESV and noticed why the joke (but accurate) acronym of ESV is the elect sovereign version the ESV looks more and more like it pushes calvinism and less of an accurate bible translation, Thanks!
I would like to know as well! I have the MacGaurther ESV, you're so right! I need a suggestion for a good KJV study Bible (not NKJV)
@@SaintPatrick33 if I may ask, why the KJV ? I see everyone has presuppositions some more than others and every translation has a lens that they see scripture through, and calvinists are wrong at the foundation (not saying your a KJV only) but also a wrong presup is the KJV only camp and so many presuppositions are wrong and others are much better, like provisionism.
Nasb95, LSB, CSB, NKJV
Many of the Modern Translations are/ were produced by Calvinists, including the NIV, the ESV, the Legacy standard,( John MacArthur) ect. You can't go wrong with the KJV. For example, it doesn't use the word " Sovereign " even once!
I pray for a divine decree from God to humble Mr. White.
This is why you cannot debate Calvinists scripturally. They are utterly incapable of entertaining other interpretations of scripture, let alone accepting the idea that other interpretations MIGHT be true. The only way to debate them is philosophically. Bring to light the logical conclusions of their worldview, like infant damnation.
JW doesn't seem to be interested in admitting he made mistakes with the Greek .
"Made to be taught ones" 😂
JW. "maybe if I read the text one more time you will believe me"
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
If God predetermined all of this confusion among denominations, then He contradicts His own word when He said through the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:33
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I wasn't raised in a church or any particular denomination, I got saved at a random Bible study as a kid... I'm not saying I can't be biased, but I really do try to be fair... I followed Leighton's argument in the debate about people rejecting God, refusing to come, not believing etc... It made sense to me, the passages literally say that.
James lost me, he never made an argument for his view, nor dealt with many of the arguments Leighton made.
A bunch of making issues about not reading a verse back into it, or something the Greek says. None of it seemed solid to me...
Not being able to follow it might be on me, but that was my takeaway.
James's view creates a contradiction in the Bible.
Leighton is so gracious and doesn't assume White has bad motives, but after awhile, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. White is not stupid, he knows he is dishonest in his tactics by using character assassinations, red herrings, and malicious accusations to respond to believers who disagree with his presupposed Calvinism. Dr. White needs to be called out everytime he uses these tactics because it's sinful; he's prideful and not an honest debater who approaches discussions with godly character. I'm okay with Calvinists who are willing to defend their view by providing evidence for it, but not those who focus on attacking the person.
James Fight - wisdom of the world - bad faith debater.
I think I got it: James White has two types of teaching and/or learning with relation to John 6:44 and salvation. One that is effectual by God (i.e. like a hybrid of a Jedi mind trick fused with Matrix Neo's "I know Kung Fu" kind), and one that is the normal meaning of the word. Now all we need is a biblical precedent for the former...
James White is an incompetent interlocutor. He legitimately doesn't understand his opponent's position, doesn't want to understand it, and can't read the passage literally before putting in his presuppositions.
Make your book available on audio.!!!!!
Who is the 5th century person that introduced the determinism that Dr Flowers referenced around 55:55 mark? St. Augustine?
Yes
55:05 + Preach it, Bro Leighton!
PREACH!
The reason White does what he does is that he doesn't debate in good faith. Calling those verbs passive while they are clearly active means he either isn't very good with Greek or he was actively lying and hoping to slide it past everyone.
He explained later that what he meant by "passive" is they are actions where one is taking in something from outside themselves. They are learning something from outside themselves, hearing something from outside themselves. 3 things on that:
1) DUH! Of course you learn and hear things from outside yourself. Are you supposed to learn things from inside yourself?
2) What White described is called "external" not passive. Things from outside yourself are external. Use the right word, James.
3) James, as a Greek teacher, ought to know that passive is a grammatical term and should know better than to use it the way he did in the context of the debate.
It's not that White still isn't getting it. No, it's the fact that he's unwilling to admit he's wrong. It's a pride thing driven by the camp / church he's in. Face it, much of the attention, prominence and following James has owes much to his militant Calvinism and books. He has a huge Reformed audience. And he well knows that to back up now, admit he's wrong, that's he's distorted the clear meanings found across the New Testament that, God loves all and OFFERS His salvation to ALL. He's put all of his eggs in this Five Point logic box - but the box is leaking and stinks - and I think he knows it. So, despite considerable Scriptural-based theology redundantly shown and explained to him, White's stance is to simply double-down and act as if he's standing up for God's word. And just like so many others who have come to fame preaching a distorted or harmful version of the Gospel, he'd rather keep his career, following, and main source of income, than to repent of the harm he's doing to the cause of Christ. If Five Point teachings were true, a sincere desire to evangelize would seem highly suspect - I mean, if God had already decided FOR people whether they could come to Him, and He supposedly compels them irresistibly, then those saved would be saved no matter what influences, presentations or overtures Christians might make to unbelievers.
I can imagine, many unbelievers, upon hearing the specifics as to what the Reformed believe about Salvation, might well conclude, "You know, IF that is true, I'm pretty sure that God hasn't chosen ME - as I have no inclination whatsoever towards Him anyway." I can just hear unbelievers further pondering the Reformed views about God, thinking that, "Wow, while this (Reformed) God COULD desire to save all so-willing, He's nonetheless orchestrated for the vast majority of mankind to have NO opportunity whatsoever to embrace Christ - what a brutal, unloving God, whom would abandon humanity in hopelessness now, and into terrible punishment thereafter." Yeah, like that's gonna draw people to Christ. Which is why many Reformed Churches don't do a lot of talking about those God has supposedly already prevented from Salvation - because THAT would be a MAJOR "pew emptier!" Further, one might surmise: "So, this God tells US to love EVERYONE - and one's neighbor as ourselves - and yet, HE hates those He has pre-empted from Heaven, to a certainty of Hell (in other words, Calvinism ultimately believes GOD caused their sin of rejection, great sin (Oh, but doesn't Scripture tell us that God NEVER causes anyone to sin?). And that, my friends, is how the Reformed are damaging the cause of Christ as well as maligning His Holy character! It's a terrible tragedy!
How does Genesis 6-6 make any sense if you are a Calvinist? The Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart Genesis6-6. If men only do what God makes them do and they have no free will, then why would God be sorry that he made them? That makes no sense at all under Calvinism.
What is telling of the glaring difference between White and Leighton (as if you couldn't tell already) is that both are criticized by a Greek scholar concerning their performance in the debate, but only one of them has their critic on their program for a discussion while the other raves on endlessly about how uninformed and unworthy this literal scholar is to dare criticize him!! What really shows his arrogance is when White said "Its obvious he hasn't read any of MY books on the matter! " no joke? Im guessing James White books aren't required reading to become a Greek scholar? Of course, that's news to James!
So wait, he doesn’t use his presuppositions for verses 15 and 16, but he brought it back in for the rest of it?
Who sing the so rude song ? Does anyone know?
"So you have one twin who is fallen in Adam and he will receive justice and you have another twin who is also fallen in Adam and he will receive grace. And what's being said is , 'God can't do that.'"
Correct.
GOD CANNOT DO THAT!
Not for lack of power, but because he cannot lie and no baby is a soul that HAS SINNED! God has said that the soul that sinneth shal perish.
So if God predestines someone to hell to demonstrate his justice and one to heaven to demonstrate his grace, one cannot ignore the implication that God then demonstrates that he prioritizes justice over grace since so many more reject him than repents.
no no no, GOD rejected them first
@@CosmicalChrist that's right, so it all becomes even more senseless