I thank God for Leighton Flowers. As a former calvinist and one now impassioned to offer a counterfoil to the deluge of the Calvinist presence on the internet, he has a unique energy and patience to understand it and help us understand the sobering dangerous implications of it, bring scholars to bear in refuting it, and pick apart the logical fallacies and unfair misrepresenting rhetoric of defenders of it. Born for such a time as this.
ANY CALVINIST can be buried! MY RANT: their weak, corrupted, self-contradictory theology simply cannot be rationally defended. every supposed "learned" calvinist (piper, white, macarther, sproul) i heard expousing/debating calvinism/ tulip employs strawman attacks, smoke and mirrors, ad hominem accusations, finger shaking, pulpit pounding, etc. but worse, is when they employ arguments they KNOW and acknowledged to have been previously debunked against the ignorant; i can only assume they use duplicitous tactics is that the ends justifies the means. such universal irrationality among prominent calvinists i have heard is "proof" of the evil of calvinism. why should calvinists be upset at anti-calvinists rejecting TULIP when it was "God who ordained their anti-calvinism"? when strongly pressed, backed into a corner, i have heard on those very rare instances, calvinists admit that God ordains not just evil but in particular murders, rapes, child molestation, torture. but they hide inferences of their faith to the world at large; you will never hear them proclaiming tulip in hospitals, prisons, funerals (of the unsaved), and street corners. evil loves darkness
@@arkrainflood so why is there evil in the world It seems either God has a purpose. God powerless to prevent it. God allows it but for no reason whatsoever Or God does not exist Which do you hold to?
@@Michael-uk3pj why evil? God permits it, though with boundaries (think Job, The Restrainer). Man has free will. The enduring question: why does God permit any evil? I am reminded of God's reply to Job, which did not answer his questions, but only with questions "where were you when i made the earth?" etc
Thanks for the shout out Leighton! I must admit, I actually copied and pasted the summary from someone who commented it on Facebook. I am one of the ones who doesn’t have the time or patience to listen to Uncle Jimmy anymore. I trusted it was an accurate summation and by your reaction and others on the thread it seems to be dead on. I shared it on the video because I desperately want Calvinists to get a bit of light in their dark echo chamber. I was in a rush at the time of posting and have lost the original comment’s thread as well as the identity of the courageous martyr who endured the full dividing line episode but if you’re reading this I apologise, I wasn’t trying to steal your thunder, I merely wanted to get the word out, granted - I should have quoted you.
@@DansplainingTheBible If you’re spewing heresies as bad as this, you deserve nothing else but be destroyed. Jesus would not have been so kind to JW. Look how he treated the Pharisees.
Poor James White. He was out of his league. His verbal gymnastics didn’t play well vs a real scholar. When James returns to his flock to do his schtick he has to edit, straw man, and reframe. Sadly, his fans gobble it up.
James White is so childish and arrogant!! When I hear him, I just want to recoil !!Dr. Flowers you are always consistently kind and mature. You are truly a Godly man. I really appreciate you!
White has really begun to lose his mind I think. I suspect that as Calvinism grew in the past few years he did'nt think he would ever be expected to deal with the eventual questioning of its incoherence.
Bobby, I had this discussion with a friend who is a student of church history not too long ago. So many of the “Reformers” were “immoral” men. (Might better say Evil men). I know a truth is not false because an evil person believes it but I struggle to think that a godly person would own slaves or burn alive their critics. Now if you say George Washington owned slaves as many Fathers of the U.S did I would tell you I’m not getting my theology from him either. To me it’s so much easier learning from a Christian who is “walking in the light” than one who is just writing propositions.
As a former student of Baptist Calvinism, I am struck by the departure from Scripture that is necessary to think like a calvinist. Just this week, I was reading in 2 Corinthians in the New Living Translation where Paul praises them for generously giving money a) in their poverty, b) out of their own free will and c) most generously without coercion. It seems that Paul takes a dim view of coercion. I am also struck by the use of his language describing resistance to, and rejection of the good news. Paul describes how Israel, the chosen nation, rejected the prophets and the gospel, leading to the offer of salvation coming to the gentiles, the non-chosen. Calvinism likes to use Romans 9-11 to teach election, but ignores the implied and explicit teaching of freedom of the will in Paul’s writings. It seems that it would be a good idea to hit reset on Calvinism, lapsarianism, Dort, etc, and develop a biblical theology of salvation without the vocabulary of medieval monks that only confuse and divide the sheep. I need Jesus, not Molina or Calvin.
For accuracy of doctrine you should only use the King James Bible version. If you don't understand why you need to study the subject deeply from all sources and ask God to lead you.
More like: Some Guy: "The sky is blue." JW: "The Bible actually agrees with me that the οὐρανός is κύανος. As you can see from my many debates with Catholics, and I have stood toe to toe with the greatest Catholic thinkers and debated with them like the Apostle Paul did with the Greek apologists of his time, the Pope also believes that the sky is blue; therefore, you have to admit that my position is taught by the biblical text while yours is merely a philosophical system, a grid by which you interpret the Bible." Some Guy: "... but both of our views are taught by scripture. In fact, your view is just the Greek expression of the same propositional content in my sentence." JW: "Well, you are wrong, a Pelagian, and clearly wedded to philosophy while I am just giving the teaching of the Bible." Some Guy: "... Okay..." JW: /puts out an episode of Dividing Line explaining how Some Guy came to be so wrong.
And a purveyor of word salad. Listening to him talk is embarrassing. You can hear him desperately trying to form statements that make sense while doing everything that he can to avoid saying anything relevant to the debate.
The moment White brought up Leighton Flowers and his article with the quote from Calvin he lost all credibility. Literally NOTHING about Leighton writing an article quoting Calvin has anything to do with the point of contention, the argument that Tim was addressing. White can only assume that Tim was even using that article. He has zero proof of it at the time he makes his argument. Instead of dealing with the actual argument he focuses on someone who he knows his audience (mainly Calvinists) will look at and automatically start to question the quote of Calvin as being "taken out of context." It's a tactic and it's intellectually dishonest. And to make matters worse White then reads the quote in context but never even shows how it was taken out of context or how Calvin didn't believe God was the author of evil. He never even answers the question or deals with the argument. It's typical. And sadly many who follow him don't see it or are ignorant of it and end up doing the same. Calvinists are extremely weak in their arguments because they have a false system. It's unbiblical and untruthful and to defend it they have to be dishonest themselves. Calvinism really is a stain on the Christian faith.
Why does anyone ever listen to Dr. Diatribe? Ever? I know Tim has stated he "respects James White" but why? I don't see intellectual honesty in James but intellectual dishonesty, repeatedly. Whereas in Leighton all is see is intellectual honesty.
I saw the question, "Does anyone understand Calvinism?" I would say the answer is no, even among Calvinists. If you notice, a very scholarly man such as John MacArthur, when asked very difficult questions, falls back to 'that's just the way God said it is." He has no explanations. In other words, I don't think he fully understands Calvinism.
Amused at the number of Calvinists who apparently have no experience with writing. As they are creating a storyline, authors frequently change plot and subplot lines, they invent characters, delete characters, modify characters, make protagonists into antagonists and vice versa, etc. Some of the most famous fictional characters were not even conceived when the author made a first pass at his work, let alone given all the "character" they ended up with when the novel was shipped off for publication. And you're telling me the author is not responsible for the actions of the characters he created and modified? Puh-lease.
This one gets me too. I absolutely fault the authors/writers for bad characters and a bad storyline. It's not the characters fault. The author chose the words and actions for them. Characters in an authored story have no free will in any sense of the matter at all. No matter how you philosophically twist it. God declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) literally means that from the beginning of time, he declared what the end would be. And he will do as he pleases to see that it is accomplished no matter if us humans choose freely to do right or wrong. That is true sovereignty. That is true power. Literally nothing can stop the plan.
Exactly! They will never acknowledge you when asked “who created them doomed from the womb or who gave them their (nature)” Not only created these characters reprobate but they are unable to do anything but evil and will be eternally punished for being created this way??????? They claim EDD but act like evil people created themselves sinful and gave themselves a bad “nature” whatever that means?
@@georgemoncayo8313 Wrong, Jesus atoned for EVERY sin. “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” I John 2:2 Calvinism or “reformed theology” is nothing more than a false interpretation of scripture. Election is to serve Gods purpose not for forced salvation. God doesn’t force salvation and He NEVER shows partiality. Clear your mind from the lies of John Calvin and then read the Bible it will make more sense.
@@georgemoncayo8313 That’s not what those scriptures mean you have a false interpretation given to you by men like Augustine. It’s very naive. You can’t pervert “world” or “all” into “few.” There is NO world in which “world” means “not just the Jews.” It seems as though you are the one who needs to let the “scriptures say what they say.”It’s no presupposition to accurately describe calvinism. Reformed theology literally teaches God is the author of evil “meticulously predetermined EVERYTHING”
QUESTION FOR CALVINISTS: on an "emotional" basis, would you not want for everybody to have the intrinsic free will ability to choose Jesus? to answer NO, is to be callous, hard hearted, bordering on cruel.
They don’t care about that. I pined a well known Calvinist down on this and their answer was. God doesn’t love everyone so I don’t love everyone He hates some people so I hate some people. 😳
When the pharisees asked Jesus about divorce, he said Moses, who in subsequent books of the pentateuch, allowed divorce due to the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning in Genesis it wasn't so, that when God united Adam and Eve He also declared that no one should separate, (not that we can't choose to do so). In the beginning, in the book of Genesis 4:6-7, God told Cain he had choices that he could make and master. Free will was there at the beginning even after the fall of Cain's parents.
@Mark Patterson you’re right freewill was there right in the beginning and if you read the account of the fall carefully you will actually see satan taking away the word freely just like Calvinists do today. Take a close look in the Genesis account between Satan and Adam and Eve leading up to the Fall. Compare word-for-word exactly what God states in Genesis 2:16,17 with what Satan the great deceiver and father of lies states in Genesis 3:1-3. *If you look closely you will see that Satan the father of lies misquoted God and left out the word “FREELY” which God had originally said in Genesis 2:16 when He said, “...Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY eat.”* *SATAN first rebelled against the Sovereignty of God which gave man free will and took away the words God has said.”* Satan took away the word “FREELY” which God had said and reformers still do today. 👉Here’s God giving the initial statement: GENESIS 2:16-17 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest 👉FREELY👈 eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. A few verses later in Genesis 3 we see Satan TAKING AWAY from God’s word and QUESTIONING God when he MISQUOTES what God had actually said. 👉Here’s satan misquoting God 10 verses later: GENESIS 3:1 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, YEA, HATH GOD SAID, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 🔴 Notice how Satan conveniently left out the word “FREELY” in Genesis 3:1. 👉God said the word freely in Genesis 2:16 but satan left it out when quoting God in Genesis 3:1. I think this is very very interesting and quite telling. Satan TAKES AWAY God’s word. MATTHEW 13:18,19 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the WICKED one, and CATCHETH AWAY that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. Satan takes away God’s Word and he clearly took away the word FREELY the same as reformers do today.
@@apilkey Good points. What's also interesting is that even after the fall, free will remained as exemplified in the Cain and Abel story. Free will was not lost or totally depraved or lost as Calvinists would claim.
@@markpatterson2517 I agree literally right after the fall as if God was showing us it wasn’t lost, we see both Adam having the ability to hear and respond to God when He was walking in the garden, AND like you said the very next account is one of freewill with Cain and Abel and mankind still having the ability to respond positively to God.
@@markpatterson2517 May the truth of God's Word and the truth of God's character prevail. I do not agree with Craig in many points, but Calvinism is just dark.
The problem is not that Calvinism is an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, and failing miserably, it is Calvinists' insistance of adhering to their position for no apparent reason.
Tell me, what percentage of Dr Whites time is spent responding to Dr Flowers? And what percentage dealing with Islam Mormonism, Catholicism, skeptics, atheism? What percentage of Dr Flowers time is spent dealing with Dr White and what percentage dealing with anything but Calvinism?
@@Michael-uk3pj if you've been a subscriber for more than 5mins you would have heard Dr Flowers say (on many occasions) that he has his hands in many pies but this Channel (soteriology) is specifically addressing Calvinism. He not only refutes James White, but also RC Sproul, John Piper, John Macarthur and many more- including John Calvin himself. I've never heard him attack James Whites character, or call into question his salvation. He's always tried to be respectful and gracious.... can't say the same for James White. You can disagree on theology but you don't have to be rude.
19:50 JohnMac's evolution is simply demonstrating the logical progression of the Calvinist doctrine towards "hyperness' in as much as those conclusions are ultimately inescapable and inevitable to honest review by those who hold to Calvinism.
In a world where the Calvinist God is planning, authoring, ordaining, decreeing and predestining *EVERYTHING* that comes to pass it is axiomatically true that the Calvinist God *IS NOT* permitting *ANYTHING!*
@@swiftbear if everything happens because God planned authored, ordained, decreed and predestined literally all of it then it is self evident that he is not permitting anything. It's tantamount to saying "I aimed the gun at him and squeezed the trigger thereby permitting the bullet to strike him."
@@swiftbear basically “permitted” and “decreed” are mutually exclusive. If God decrees literally everything that comes to pass there’s nothing left to permit.
@@garyleemusic --- Exactly right, to go on with your thought, *SINCE* mans thoughts, beliefs and actions "come to pass" and since sin and evil "come to pass" then by definition it must be *IRREVOCABLY* true that the Calvinist God is bringing those things into existence through his planning and decree; since "all things" *MUST* logically include "all things".
Leighton, it’s clear that James is obsessed with you. Like in Mean Girls. You know? Of everything he could have focused on while watching Dr Stratton, he searched around for any evidence of Leighton.
How can I download that opening epic tune that utterly roasted the Calvinist bully boys! 😂🤩🤣 Hope the artist is on Apple tunes!🤞I Love Leighton’s channel that battles the horrifying heresy of Calvinism on a daily basis as he faithfully does the Lord’s work!
Leighton lives rent free in White’s head; too bad Jesus doesn’t. If, and it’s a big “IF,” James White ever sees and confesses the error and Satanic influence of Calvin’s ideas, he would be summarily dismissed as a fool by the next Calvinist, but he won’t because he will never admit he was wrong. He’s gone too far down that road and his pride won’t let him. But I guess God determined him to be so foolish.
I can't stand Bible teachers who act like you need to listen to Biblical scholars to interpret the Bible and that you normal people cannot understand the Bible by reading it yourself. It's arrogant, false and routed in pride.
Regarding the author analogy, the inconsistent Calvinist would have us believe that Shakespeare is not responsible for what we read in Hamlet. The analogy is a great description for Calvinism because the only reason why we see what we read in Hamlet is because of one person-Shakespeare.
I have a theory. I think when an idea is wrong, it is impossible for one defending it to not run into areas where they would be proven inconsistent. I honestly believe that in many of these instances, James White avoids what he says being falsified by saying nothing at all.
Every time I hear JW I can't help but think about how arrogant he sounds. I am thankful for Leighton and others that explain what I already know to be true in my head and heart by conviction.
I have tried to understand Calvinism but it doesn't matter who tries to explain it, it never adds up. It's like an atheist trying to explain God doesn't exist.
i totally agree with the comment below... You have inexhaustible patience with this man who has shown himself to be a mocker, who has stooped to ad hominem arguments, his go-to method.
I would put him in the “mocker” category and I have thought at times LF would be better off not replying but once I found out that many Calvinists have been “deCalvanized” by hearing LF on the Dividing Line I think the greater good demands LF just keeps being smooth as butter in his replies allowing honest folk to see through the arrogant error of JW.
I like the quote from Calvin; it says God is going to judge the evil on their merits:? Wouldn’t that mean on their works, not God predetermining them doing evil works??!
Leighton, I know you don’t like folks bashing James White’s Ph.D. My point isn’t necessarily to do so. But having listened to White for some time now, and knowing he did his graduate studies online, I wonder whether this is not what is (at least partly) responsible for both his lack of proper argumentation and his seeming lack of understanding of how correct scholarship works. His embarrassing clash with Ken Wilson is a case in point. Another is what you are demonstrating here, which is his inability to engage with the arguments themselves or to establish his viewpoints via proper argumentation. We see him time and time again begging the question-assuming his position is correct without demonstrating in actual argumentation that it is-and using strawmen arguments. Would he had gotten away with this in actual in-person graduate seminars or colloquia, where you are constrained to defend your positions properly, with fellow scholars ready to jump on you if you don’t?
@@Emper0rH0rde Agreed Ruben. Like JW assumes his position is correct, people assume JW is an honest Christian. Don’t assume anything about JW except what he shows, and dishonesty, aka LYING is his game. That should reveal who his father is. If it doesn’t, you’re a fool.
It must be threatening for someone raised in or a believer in Calvinism to question it. If they do so, then they fear they were not one of the elect in the first place. They are willing to believe the absurd as if they are being tested and must presevere in their original belief. If they don't persevere then they were not predetermined for salvation, but for damnation. Their perseverance or obstinacy becomes a choice or effort or work that psychologically gives them assurance for their salvation. It is freely chosen faith in the Father's grace through active trust in Christ's accomplished goodness that is the assurance for our hope of salvation. Fear not to believe something isn't faith. Faith is the antithesis of fear. Faith is more of a verb than a noun. Faith begins with good will towards the Father which proceeds in good faith in His Son which acts with good effort with His Spirit. The effort the faithful do may or may not accomplish the good anticipated due to circumstances out of the control of the faithful. Even if good is accomplished by the faithful, that good is still not enough to merit or earn the eternal good or bliss of heaven. The accomplished good of the faithful are temporal pennies relative to the eternal riches of heaven. There is no comparison. So the faithful do not boast of their works. They do not demand eternal due or payment as their just due. The faithful's incomplete good will to the Father, their struggling good faith toward the Son, and their unaccomplished good efforts with the Spirit are good gestures of faith in response to Christ's complete good will, triumphant good faith, and accomplished good work.
Brother Leighton, I agree with you in doctrine, but my question is this: why stoop to James White's level by responding to his arrogant behavior? Just preach the word brother, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. James White is unteachable. When people elevate themselves as James does, constantly boasting of how intelligent they are, well...pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. I thank the Lord for you and your ministry. God's best to you and yours. In Jesus name.
Calvinists address this by creating categories. They say there is the prescribed will of God and the decreed will of God. God prescribes to not do evil, but then decrees some to do evil, and it's just a mystery. This however has God's wills opposing one another. Under a provisionist view, God prescribes all to not do evil, however His decreed will is to allow some to do evil. This harmonizes to the two wills of God and has actual scriptural support as compared to the latter.
Under Calvinism yes. But God has only 1 will: it is good and perfect. If I sin, it is against His will. Not everything is His will, that is why Jesus told us to pray His will be done on earth as in heaven. If His will was already done on earth, why pray for it to be done?
It’s ridiculous for Calvinists to dismiss and denigrate scholars like Ken Wilson and William Lane Craig while they venerate James White. Does James White have a genuine doctorate? The degree is granted by an unaccredited correspondence school. There are no set course syllabi; students write their own syllabi. CES has no library, student services or bookstore. The school has no curriculum committees and no course review procedures. There appears to have been no committee and no thesis or dissertation defense; the only signature in James White's Masters Thesis is that of CES president, Rick Walston. White's "contract" was also with Rick Walston.
I’m a molonist because I can’t deny that God can know future free actions of creatures, and he also knows the possible outcomes from any one action, whether or not it’s actualized. It’s even in scripture! There’s no way around it. I used to think molonism was such a strange philosophical conclusion, but it makes so much more sense when you simplify and summarize its attributes. God can know all free choices, and he can also know possible outcomes of all possible choices. It’s really quite easy.
No I don't understand calvinism because it goes against the totality of scripture! Here's any easy one, a calvinist reading John 3:16. For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever God predetermined to give faith to shall not perish but have eternal life......WHAT?! HOW?
Master Fnog is at it again. But, you see, I have the will of the warrior. Therefore, the battle is already over. The winner? Me! Rematch? You lose again! Had enough? I thought so!
Perhaps James White is allowed to maintain his Calvinistic viewpoint so we can have good debates on the topic and the flaws in Calvinism can be exposed. Who is James White to question why his deterministic viewpoints are being used to train other apologists?
Well once the Lord returns and or takes them from the world, both Leighton and James will both heartfeltly apologize to each other for any wrongdoing and literally sing Kumbaya my Lord together for all eternity in God's lap. That day will be truly a sight I wanna be there, hopefully, I am truly saved by the Good Lord.
@Brando "Some Calvinists say 'God causes the human to do evil, but it’s the body of the human that is to blame, so the blame lies on the physical body of the human as that is what actually engaged.' " This is Gnostic philosophy, which is the origin of Augustine's error, then Calvin's error and now "Reformed" theology's error.
Main reason that I point out that we don't need Molinism, when we have Bible passages like Genesis 4. The Bible shows that God knows the alternate possibilities and their consequences. They can't complain that God is a Jesuit; He isn't. But someone always comes along to shame me for my anti-intellectualism.
@@lindajohnson4204 I think you make a valuable point. It is prudent to eschew labels, especially whenever superficial considerations might preclude a careful scrutiny of substantive claims or concepts.
That's much too strong an accusation. White and Piper have a misguided understanding of how God exercises His sovereignty, but a perfect theological understanding is not required to have a saving knowledge of God.
@@jameshayes211 You can't believe and teach that God is the cause of all the wickedness in the world and know God. Part of the Gospel is that Jesus died for all. They teach that he didn't. That's perverting the Gospel. Galatians 1:7-9 [7]Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9]As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
@@bobbyadkins6983 A person is saved by trusting in Christ---not by acing a theology exam. The difference between the Galatian Judaizers, whom Paul anathematizes, and Piper and White is that the Judaizers were trusting in their observance of Torah to justify them before God whereas Piper and White explicitly confess a trust exclusively in Christ for their justification before God.
Great point. He obviously would not. I’ve heard it said if you come across a child in a sandbox that is creating people in his image, then destroying them, that is abnormal, and you should keep your child away from them. How is the calvinist god any different?
James White shouldn't be taken seriously on this topic. He's proven that with Leighton Flowers, Tim Stratton/Tyson James, Ken Wilson, and William Lane Craig.
Around the 57:00 mark this here hit the Calvinists hardest. Brenton really flared up trying to say 'hey look over there!' by repeating over and over 'But where does the world come from?' Sorry Brenton Leighton's picking apart of the chain of determinism is exactly why no one should try and depict God as what a Calvinist defines him as... For me you are a blasphemer Brenton. Repent of your folly. You really sully your supposed Father's name with your system. Baffling stuff.
I dint understand why christians say that Calvinists are brothers and sisters in christ. We dont say mirmans and JW's are in christ and they don't have the evil teaching that nakes God the author of evil. If someone makes God evil, that seems to me that that would be one of the worst things to make God. Even worse than the cults. O dont want to judge. Only God knows their hearts but if i said that God is evil i dont think anyone would think i was a christian.
34:54 Asinine indeed. White is dug into his subjective beliefs. Sadly, my Southern Baptist church out of Jacksonville Florida had lost its strong influence for traditional conservatism in the Body of Christ, not long after Calvinism crept into it.
We have no right to even accuse God of being the author of evil, that is a foolhardy thing to even say. The idea that we, as created beings, would tell our creator what is right for Him to do and what is not, is the height of arrogance. Remember God's answer to Job, where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth.
Really because I listen to Dr White and he often doesn't mention Dr Flowers or provisionism for months on end Flowers on the other hand can't seem to go one week without a several hours long specifically on a 5 minute segment from Dr White. If I was struggling and doubting the existence of God or the reliability of scripture or considering converting to Islam could you point me to a single word from Dr Flowers that would help me? Is that balanced? Is that even healthy??
@@Michael-uk3pj It’s called John 3:16. He mentions it frequently and actually believes God loves everyone. Imagine my Muslim friend listing to JW and hearing that same verse and realizing he may not actually be loved by God as a matter of fact that most humans are in fact not loved by God. Yes that would definitely make him want to be a Christian. 👍
@@kevinkleinhenz6511 you think that listening to Dr Flowers saying the sovereignty of God in salvation is evil will help refute the arguments of Muslim apologists? So God loved Esau just the same as Jacob? Calvin and calvinists don't deny that God loves everyone just that also has a special love for his people - Israel in the OT the church in the NT... Calvinists also believe that the offer of the gospel is open to anyone as we don't know who the elect are... Do you believe everyone WILL go to heaven? Do you believe God knows and we don't who will be saved? Can he be wrong about that... It seems that regardless of the question of Calvinism there are people who will not be saved, we don't know who so we preach the gospel to all people. So none of what you said is at all meaningful...
@@kevinkleinhenz6511 interesting that you can't seem to defend anything positive about your own position I didn't ask you for another attack on Dr White or Calvinism I asked you to show the positive affect of provisionism for someone struggling in their faith If someone asked you "how I be sure Jesus is the son of God and how can I trust the bible?" Would your answer be "let me tell you how evil James White and Calvinism are?"
@@Michael-uk3pj What good is it to tell a Muslim that the Bible is True and the message is that God has already picked a few to save the rest He picked to burn forever. There are some groups of Muslims that are deterministic and so they might believe you. The message of the Gospel is whosoever will let him come and drink. God absolutely loved everyone and wants all to be saved but only those who accept his offer shall be saved. Calvinism offers zero hope or assurance because according to Calvin you may think you are saved but in the end find out you were not God just made you think you were. Determinism is non-livable and gives no hope because it’s not Biblical.
So is James White now running back from his previous position that God does ordain evil rather than it being purposelessness??? Wow talk about chameleons...
"Who are you to question God determining the evil actions of man?" I'm questioning YOU, not God. I KNOW God is good and I think the idea of EDD is serving to undermine that truth. Is God really so unknowable? Yes, in his actions, he proves to be so far greater than us that in our rebellion we are infinitely separate from him. But can we therefore not be confident in his good character? Can I not rightly say "God can't do evil?" God is not so unknowable that we can have no faith in his character. This is that "Omnipotent fiend" idea that I guess C.S. Lewis talks about and Leighton references.
In listening to 18 minutes of this video here's the thought that came to my mind, because I also have done (and will be tempted to do) this also. What do you think? "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" TItus 3:9 -11 KJV I know this verse refers to the law, but can't there also be an application to any type religious argument such as this? I think so. I"m not saying don't argue at all, Put forth your case and then let it be. No one is going to change Dr. White's mind. And he already has been admonished at least twice, actually way more than that. At some point, just let him be. Fight the temptation to be dragged by his responses back into the argument. I'm saying this in humility because I am also tempted to do the same! Continue to preach to your audience about the evils of TULIP. (Edit: because TULIP has been such a source of pain for those who try to understand it ias being true and then follow it to it's logical conclusion and find that no one can truly have enough assurance they are saved. JC Ryle is credited as saying: "Let us never be guilty of sacrificing any portion of the truth on the altar of peace." But does that mean to argue endlessly?)
White laughs, sneers, scoffs but does not answer objections. White's "defense" thus rests on an "Argument by Arrogance" which posits that "I know how to answer this question but, if I told you, you would not UNDERSTAND so it would not be worthwhile to explain" The basis of White's remarks is his purely imaginary idea of where the offending idea comes from, in other words, it is simply another expression of the genetic fallacy which is the: act of rejecting or accepting an argument on the basis of its ORIGIN rather than its content. Under the genetic fallacy, we judge a claim by paying too much attention to its source or history, even though this criticism is irrelevant to the truth of the claim.
God ordaining sin and evil is "impugning the character of God" and is " inexcusable" and should "tread very lightly doing".....but you still think such a god that the Calvinists believe in is the Christian God? Sooner or later, the laws of logic catch up to you.
Calvinists agree that God is triune, that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. They affirm the Nicene Creed. They’re far more orthodox than Islam or LDS.
I agree that Calvinism is unbiblical and theologically deficient. But, I cringe when Calvinists are accused of not being Christian, or when Calvinists accuse me or other non-Calvinists of not being Christian. Ad hominem arguments don't serve to promote rational discourse. And, it should be acknowledged that a perfect theological understanding is not required to have a genuine and saving knowledge of the living God.
@@ACTSVERSE No. Paul defines the gospel in 1 Cor 15: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. I affirm, with my Calvinist brethren, Paul's definition of the gospel. And, I strive to correct my Calvinist brothers' misguided understanding of how God exercises His sovereignty.
I thank God for Leighton Flowers. As a former calvinist and one now impassioned to offer a counterfoil to the deluge of the Calvinist presence on the internet, he has a unique energy and patience to understand it and help us understand the sobering dangerous implications of it, bring scholars to bear in refuting it, and pick apart the logical fallacies and unfair misrepresenting rhetoric of defenders of it. Born for such a time as this.
James White's arrogance is truly unsavory. How does he have any listeners?
His listeners all agree with him. They see the world, and non-Calvinists, the way he does.
Because it's a false doctrine full of pride. Very seldom do you meet one that's not full of it in my experience anyway
I've never witnessed someone burying James White like that before. 🤣
Welcome to the channel, tune in next week when Flowers does it again. :)
ANY CALVINIST can be buried!
MY RANT: their weak, corrupted, self-contradictory theology simply cannot be rationally defended. every supposed "learned" calvinist (piper, white, macarther, sproul) i heard expousing/debating calvinism/ tulip employs strawman attacks, smoke and mirrors, ad hominem accusations, finger shaking, pulpit pounding, etc. but worse, is when they employ arguments they KNOW and acknowledged to have been previously debunked against the ignorant; i can only assume they use duplicitous tactics is that the ends justifies the means.
such universal irrationality among prominent calvinists i have heard is "proof" of the evil of calvinism. why should calvinists be upset at anti-calvinists rejecting TULIP when it was "God who ordained their anti-calvinism"?
when strongly pressed, backed into a corner, i have heard on those very rare instances, calvinists admit that God ordains not just evil but in particular murders, rapes, child molestation, torture. but they hide inferences of their faith to the world at large; you will never hear them proclaiming tulip in hospitals, prisons, funerals (of the unsaved), and street corners. evil loves darkness
@@arkrainflood so why is there evil in the world
It seems either
God has a purpose.
God powerless to prevent it.
God allows it but for no reason whatsoever
Or God does not exist
Which do you hold to?
@@Michael-uk3pj why evil? God permits it, though with boundaries (think Job, The Restrainer). Man has free will.
The enduring question: why does God permit any evil? I am reminded of God's reply to Job, which did not answer his questions, but only with questions "where were you when i made the earth?" etc
@@arkrainflood so you don't have an answer...
Whoever does the songs on this channel, is brilliant.
Thanks for the shout out Leighton!
I must admit, I actually copied and pasted the summary from someone who commented it on Facebook.
I am one of the ones who doesn’t have the time or patience to listen to Uncle Jimmy anymore.
I trusted it was an accurate summation and by your reaction and others on the thread it seems to be dead on. I shared it on the video because I desperately want Calvinists to get a bit of light in their dark echo chamber.
I was in a rush at the time of posting and have lost the original comment’s thread as well as the identity of the courageous martyr who endured the full dividing line episode but if you’re reading this I apologise, I wasn’t trying to steal your thunder, I merely wanted to get the word out, granted - I should have quoted you.
Leighton, you’re relentless patience with James White is inspiring.
I don’t think he goes at him hard enough.
@@juaneato you’re right.
@@DansplainingTheBible If you’re spewing heresies as bad as this, you deserve nothing else but be destroyed. Jesus would not have been so kind to JW. Look how he treated the Pharisees.
@@DansplainingTheBible I would treat him as an unbeliever and just preach the Gospel. I wouldn’t argue with him anymore.
@@juaneato perhaps Ephesians 5:11 applies. Arguing with JW maybe fruitless, but arguing against him still seems to have value.
You have so much patience with Dr. White.
Poor James White. He was out of his league. His verbal gymnastics didn’t play well vs a real scholar. When James returns to his flock to do his schtick he has to edit, straw man, and reframe. Sadly, his fans gobble it up.
JW: "Well of course my position is the right one, beucause it's based on scripture"
That is such a rookie mistake
He was out of his league… it looked like Mayweather fighting MacGregor.
@@gingrai00 Even McGregor walked away with millions to get humiliated on television.
@@martytu20 but, I think you would agree, that he was exposed as not being in the same league as Mayweather.
@@gingrai00 no, he wasn’t, but still can boast he debated Bill like McGregor can boast he boxed Mayweather.
Regarding inconsistency, a wise teacher once taught me that "Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument" - James White
“Author of sin”, is neither a metaphor nor an analogy. One of the definitions of the word “author” is, “one that originates or creates something.”
James White is so childish and arrogant!! When I hear him, I just want to recoil !!Dr. Flowers you are always consistently kind and mature. You are truly a Godly man. I really appreciate you!
White has really begun to lose his mind I think.
I suspect that as Calvinism grew in the past few years he did'nt think he would ever be expected to deal with the eventual questioning of its incoherence.
Calvin was a very wicked man. How could any Christian have any desire to learn anything from someone like him????
@Bobby My thoughts exactly, brother.
Amen!
because the devil is the father of all lies, he is deceitful.
Bobby, I had this discussion with a friend who is a student of church history not too long ago. So many of the “Reformers” were “immoral” men. (Might better say Evil men). I know a truth is not false because an evil person believes it but I struggle to think that a godly person would own slaves or burn alive their critics. Now if you say George Washington owned slaves as many Fathers of the U.S did I would tell you I’m not getting my theology from him either. To me it’s so much easier learning from a Christian who is “walking in the light” than one who is just writing propositions.
@@kevinkleinhenz6511 Amen to that, brother!
As a former student of Baptist Calvinism, I am struck by the departure from Scripture that is necessary to think like a calvinist. Just this week, I was reading in 2 Corinthians in the New Living Translation where Paul praises them for generously giving money a) in their poverty, b) out of their own free will and c) most generously without coercion. It seems that Paul takes a dim view of coercion.
I am also struck by the use of his language describing resistance to, and rejection of the good news. Paul describes how Israel, the chosen nation, rejected the prophets and the gospel, leading to the offer of salvation coming to the gentiles, the non-chosen. Calvinism likes to use Romans 9-11 to teach election, but ignores the implied and explicit teaching of freedom of the will in Paul’s writings. It seems that it would be a good idea to hit reset on Calvinism, lapsarianism, Dort, etc, and develop a biblical theology of salvation without the vocabulary of medieval monks that only confuse and divide the sheep. I need Jesus, not Molina or Calvin.
For accuracy of doctrine you should only use the King James Bible version. If you don't understand why you need to study the subject deeply from all sources and ask God to lead you.
Some guy: "The sky is blue"
JW: "A bad guy also said that the sky is blue! Therefore you're wrong!"
More like:
Some Guy: "The sky is blue."
JW: "The Bible actually agrees with me that the οὐρανός is κύανος. As you can see from my many debates with Catholics, and I have stood toe to toe with the greatest Catholic thinkers and debated with them like the Apostle Paul did with the Greek apologists of his time, the Pope also believes that the sky is blue; therefore, you have to admit that my position is taught by the biblical text while yours is merely a philosophical system, a grid by which you interpret the Bible."
Some Guy: "... but both of our views are taught by scripture. In fact, your view is just the Greek expression of the same propositional content in my sentence."
JW: "Well, you are wrong, a Pelagian, and clearly wedded to philosophy while I am just giving the teaching of the Bible."
Some Guy: "... Okay..."
JW: /puts out an episode of Dividing Line explaining how Some Guy came to be so wrong.
@@Real_LiamOBryan straight on
When did Dr White say that?
@@Michael-uk3pj I'm just satirizing his way of reasoning that was shown in the beginning of this video
@@awesomefacepalm indeed
Adhomanim is so much easier than argument...
Dr White is the king of unsubstantiated claims
And a purveyor of word salad. Listening to him talk is embarrassing. You can hear him desperately trying to form statements that make sense while doing everything that he can to avoid saying anything relevant to the debate.
Agreed. He is masterful at burning down the strawmen he creates in his own mind.
The moment White brought up Leighton Flowers and his article with the quote from Calvin he lost all credibility. Literally NOTHING about Leighton writing an article quoting Calvin has anything to do with the point of contention, the argument that Tim was addressing. White can only assume that Tim was even using that article. He has zero proof of it at the time he makes his argument. Instead of dealing with the actual argument he focuses on someone who he knows his audience (mainly Calvinists) will look at and automatically start to question the quote of Calvin as being "taken out of context." It's a tactic and it's intellectually dishonest. And to make matters worse White then reads the quote in context but never even shows how it was taken out of context or how Calvin didn't believe God was the author of evil. He never even answers the question or deals with the argument. It's typical. And sadly many who follow him don't see it or are ignorant of it and end up doing the same. Calvinists are extremely weak in their arguments because they have a false system. It's unbiblical and untruthful and to defend it they have to be dishonest themselves. Calvinism really is a stain on the Christian faith.
Very well summarized.
Yes very well laid out
Forced love is not love. If I forced someone to love me they would be a slave against their will.
Why does anyone ever listen to Dr. Diatribe? Ever? I know Tim has stated he "respects James White" but why? I don't see intellectual honesty in James but intellectual dishonesty, repeatedly. Whereas in Leighton all is see is intellectual honesty.
One reason is to get examples of bad reasoning. Another is for examples of deceptive rhetoric.
@@DansplainingTheBible Lol true, I guess I should have added or used "believe" instead. Duly noted!
I saw the question, "Does anyone understand Calvinism?" I would say the answer is no, even among Calvinists. If you notice, a very scholarly man such as John MacArthur, when asked very difficult questions, falls back to 'that's just the way God said it is." He has no explanations. In other words, I don't think he fully understands Calvinism.
Amused at the number of Calvinists who apparently have no experience with writing. As they are creating a storyline, authors frequently change plot and subplot lines, they invent characters, delete characters, modify characters, make protagonists into antagonists and vice versa, etc. Some of the most famous fictional characters were not even conceived when the author made a first pass at his work, let alone given all the "character" they ended up with when the novel was shipped off for publication. And you're telling me the author is not responsible for the actions of the characters he created and modified? Puh-lease.
This one gets me too. I absolutely fault the authors/writers for bad characters and a bad storyline. It's not the characters fault. The author chose the words and actions for them.
Characters in an authored story have no free will in any sense of the matter at all. No matter how you philosophically twist it.
God declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) literally means that from the beginning of time, he declared what the end would be. And he will do as he pleases to see that it is accomplished no matter if us humans choose freely to do right or wrong. That is true sovereignty. That is true power. Literally nothing can stop the plan.
Exactly! They will never acknowledge you when asked “who created them doomed from the womb or who gave them their (nature)” Not only created these characters reprobate but they are unable to do anything but evil and will be eternally punished for being created this way??????? They claim EDD but act like evil people created themselves sinful and gave themselves a bad “nature” whatever that means?
@@georgemoncayo8313 Wrong, Jesus atoned for EVERY sin.
“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
I John 2:2
Calvinism or “reformed theology” is nothing more than a false interpretation of scripture. Election is to serve Gods purpose not for forced salvation. God doesn’t force salvation and He NEVER shows partiality. Clear your mind from the lies of John Calvin and then read the Bible it will make more sense.
@@georgemoncayo8313 That’s not what those scriptures mean you have a false interpretation given to you by men like Augustine. It’s very naive. You can’t pervert “world” or “all” into “few.” There is NO world in which “world” means “not just the Jews.” It seems as though you are the one who needs to let the “scriptures say what they say.”It’s no presupposition to accurately describe calvinism. Reformed theology literally teaches God is the author of evil “meticulously predetermined EVERYTHING”
@@georgemoncayo8313 The Word of God seems to know how to differentiate between Jew, gentile, and world so I’m not sure why you can’t.
It is very easy to James White to say that I win a debate or refute or explain something when you evade questions or points.
Uncle Jimmy, ..... a dishonest broker of intellectual honesty and civilized debate, *I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!!!???!!!*
🤣👍
QUESTION FOR CALVINISTS: on an "emotional" basis, would you not want for everybody to have the intrinsic free will ability to choose Jesus? to answer NO, is to be callous, hard hearted, bordering on cruel.
They don’t care about that. I pined a well known Calvinist down on this and their answer was. God doesn’t love everyone so I don’t love everyone He hates some people so I hate some people. 😳
Excellent question for all Calvnists.
@@John-lq7hs that’s terrifying.
When the pharisees asked Jesus about divorce, he said Moses, who in subsequent books of the pentateuch, allowed divorce due to the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning in Genesis it wasn't so, that when God united Adam and Eve He also declared that no one should separate, (not that we can't choose to do so).
In the beginning, in the book of Genesis 4:6-7, God told Cain he had choices that he could make and master. Free will was there at the beginning even after the fall of Cain's parents.
@Mark Patterson you’re right freewill was there right in the beginning and if you read the account of the fall carefully you will actually see satan taking away the word freely just like Calvinists do today.
Take a close look in the Genesis account between Satan and Adam and Eve leading up to the Fall.
Compare word-for-word exactly what God states in Genesis 2:16,17 with what Satan the great deceiver and father of lies states in Genesis 3:1-3.
*If you look closely you will see that Satan the father of lies misquoted God and left out the word “FREELY” which God had originally said in Genesis 2:16 when He said, “...Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY eat.”*
*SATAN first rebelled against the Sovereignty of God which gave man free will and took away the words God has said.”*
Satan took away the word “FREELY” which God had said and reformers still do today.
👉Here’s God giving the initial statement:
GENESIS 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest 👉FREELY👈 eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
A few verses later in Genesis 3 we see Satan TAKING AWAY from God’s word and QUESTIONING God when he MISQUOTES what God had actually said.
👉Here’s satan misquoting God 10 verses later:
GENESIS 3:1
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, YEA, HATH GOD SAID, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
🔴 Notice how Satan conveniently left out the word “FREELY” in Genesis 3:1.
👉God said the word freely in Genesis 2:16 but satan left it out when quoting God in Genesis 3:1.
I think this is very very interesting and quite telling.
Satan TAKES AWAY God’s word.
MATTHEW 13:18,19
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the WICKED one, and CATCHETH AWAY that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Satan takes away God’s Word and he clearly took away the word FREELY the same as reformers do today.
@@apilkey Good points. What's also interesting is that even after the fall, free will remained as exemplified in the Cain and Abel story. Free will was not lost or totally depraved or lost as Calvinists would claim.
@@markpatterson2517 I agree literally right after the fall as if God was showing us it wasn’t lost, we see both Adam having the ability to hear and respond to God when He was walking in the garden, AND like you said the very next account is one of freewill with Cain and Abel and mankind still having the ability to respond positively to God.
@@apilkey Together with Christ we will crush the head of Calvinism with our heels.
@@markpatterson2517 May the truth of God's Word and the truth of God's character prevail. I do not agree with Craig in many points, but Calvinism is just dark.
Ah yes the good old Golden chain of eisegetical pish posh.
I call it the chain of exemption, because it's the perfect excuse.
The Calvinist ought to weep over what they have done. Perhaps they have become too calloused.
One of my sisters turned her back on Christianity completely, and went full-blown pagan, because of the teachings of Calvinism.
The problem is not that Calvinism is an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, and failing miserably, it is Calvinists' insistance of adhering to their position for no apparent reason.
Calvinism is as messed up as a soup sandwich.
😂
I think James White has just got it in for the Leighton. Keep up the good work!
Tell me, what percentage of Dr Whites time is spent responding to Dr Flowers?
And what percentage dealing with Islam Mormonism, Catholicism, skeptics, atheism?
What percentage of Dr Flowers time is spent dealing with Dr White and what percentage dealing with anything but Calvinism?
@@Michael-uk3pj if you've been a subscriber for more than 5mins you would have heard Dr Flowers say (on many occasions) that he has his hands in many pies but this Channel (soteriology) is specifically addressing Calvinism. He not only refutes James White, but also RC Sproul, John Piper, John Macarthur and many more- including John Calvin himself. I've never heard him attack James Whites character, or call into question his salvation. He's always tried to be respectful and gracious.... can't say the same for James White. You can disagree on theology but you don't have to be rude.
@@sylviaa5785 can you to Dr Flowers answering Islam
Defending the trinity the diety of Christ or the reliability of scripture?
@@sylviaa5785 as for character attacks look no further than the title of this video calling Dr White a lair!
@@sylviaa5785 can you point to Dr Flowers other channel then where he does real apologitics?
19:50 JohnMac's evolution is simply demonstrating the logical progression of the Calvinist doctrine towards "hyperness' in as much as those conclusions are ultimately inescapable and inevitable to honest review by those who hold to Calvinism.
The Rude song slaps.
In a world where the Calvinist God is planning, authoring, ordaining, decreeing and predestining *EVERYTHING* that comes to pass it is axiomatically true that the Calvinist God *IS NOT* permitting *ANYTHING!*
Can you re-word this for a peasant? It sounds like you are on to something, cause I'd like to hit my reformed pastor with this.
@@swiftbear if everything happens because God planned authored, ordained, decreed and predestined literally all of it then it is self evident that he is not permitting anything. It's tantamount to saying "I aimed the gun at him and squeezed the trigger thereby permitting the bullet to strike him."
@@swiftbear on calvinism the terms "permitted" and "caused" are often used interchangeably in these kinds of conversations.
@@swiftbear basically “permitted” and “decreed” are mutually exclusive. If God decrees literally everything that comes to pass there’s nothing left to permit.
@@garyleemusic --- Exactly right, to go on with your thought, *SINCE* mans thoughts, beliefs and actions "come to pass" and since sin and evil "come to pass" then by definition it must be *IRREVOCABLY* true that the Calvinist God is bringing those things into existence through his planning and decree; since "all things" *MUST* logically include "all things".
Leighton, it’s clear that James is obsessed with you. Like in Mean Girls. You know?
Of everything he could have focused on while watching Dr Stratton, he searched around for any evidence of Leighton.
How can I download that opening epic tune that utterly roasted the Calvinist bully boys! 😂🤩🤣 Hope the artist is on Apple tunes!🤞I Love Leighton’s channel that battles the horrifying heresy of Calvinism on a daily basis as he faithfully does the Lord’s work!
Leighton lives rent free in White’s head; too bad Jesus doesn’t. If, and it’s a big “IF,” James White ever sees and confesses the error and Satanic influence of Calvin’s ideas, he would be summarily dismissed as a fool by the next Calvinist, but he won’t because he will never admit he was wrong. He’s gone too far down that road and his pride won’t let him.
But I guess God determined him to be so foolish.
I can't stand Bible teachers who act like you need to listen to Biblical scholars to interpret the Bible and that you normal people cannot understand the Bible by reading it yourself. It's arrogant, false and routed in pride.
So much for being a Berean...
Regarding the author analogy, the inconsistent Calvinist would have us believe that Shakespeare is not responsible for what we read in Hamlet. The analogy is a great description for Calvinism because the only reason why we see what we read in Hamlet is because of one person-Shakespeare.
Exactly 💯!
It's okay to call Calvinists crazy, Leighton.
I love the intro song
I feel so sad for calvinist who are focused on mans intellect and miss the God of the Bible.
I have a theory. I think when an idea is wrong, it is impossible for one defending it to not run into areas where they would be proven inconsistent. I honestly believe that in many of these instances, James White avoids what he says being falsified by saying nothing at all.
Every time I hear JW I can't help but think about how arrogant he sounds. I am thankful for Leighton and others that explain what I already know to be true in my head and heart by conviction.
I have tried to understand Calvinism but it doesn't matter who tries to explain it, it never adds up. It's like an atheist trying to explain God doesn't exist.
i totally agree with the comment below... You have inexhaustible patience with this man who has shown himself to be a mocker, who has stooped to ad hominem arguments, his go-to method.
I would put him in the “mocker” category and I have thought at times LF would be better off not replying but once I found out that many Calvinists have been “deCalvanized” by hearing LF on the Dividing Line I think the greater good demands LF just keeps being smooth as butter in his replies allowing honest folk to see through the arrogant error of JW.
I understand Calvinism perfectly! I can’t understand the confusion
I like the quote from Calvin; it says God is going to judge the evil on their merits:? Wouldn’t that mean on their works, not God predetermining them doing evil works??!
Yes
Leighton, I know you don’t like folks bashing James White’s Ph.D. My point isn’t necessarily to do so. But having listened to White for some time now, and knowing he did his graduate studies online, I wonder whether this is not what is (at least partly) responsible for both his lack of proper argumentation and his seeming lack of understanding of how correct scholarship works.
His embarrassing clash with Ken Wilson is a case in point. Another is what you are demonstrating here, which is his inability to engage with the arguments themselves or to establish his viewpoints via proper argumentation. We see him time and time again begging the question-assuming his position is correct without demonstrating in actual argumentation that it is-and using strawmen arguments.
Would he had gotten away with this in actual in-person graduate seminars or colloquia, where you are constrained to defend your positions properly, with fellow scholars ready to jump on you if you don’t?
White is not stupid. He's dishonest.
@@Emper0rH0rde Agreed Ruben. Like JW assumes his position is correct, people assume JW is an honest Christian. Don’t assume anything about JW except what he shows, and dishonesty, aka LYING is his game. That should reveal who his father is. If it doesn’t, you’re a fool.
That song is the best! 😂
Nice haircut, Dr. Flowers! Looks good!😘
It must be threatening for someone raised in or a believer in Calvinism to question it. If they do so, then they fear they were not one of the elect in the first place. They are willing to believe the absurd as if they are being tested and must presevere in their original belief. If they don't persevere then they were not predetermined for salvation, but for damnation. Their perseverance or obstinacy becomes a choice or effort or work that psychologically gives them assurance for their salvation.
It is freely chosen faith in the Father's grace through active trust in Christ's accomplished goodness that is the assurance for our hope of salvation. Fear not to believe something isn't faith. Faith is the antithesis of fear. Faith is more of a verb than a noun. Faith begins with good will towards the Father which proceeds in good faith in His Son which acts with good effort with His Spirit.
The effort the faithful do may or may not accomplish the good anticipated due to circumstances out of the control of the faithful. Even if good is accomplished by the faithful, that good is still not enough to merit or earn the eternal good or bliss of heaven. The accomplished good of the faithful are temporal pennies relative to the eternal riches of heaven. There is no comparison. So the faithful do not boast of their works. They do not demand eternal due or payment as their just due. The faithful's incomplete good will to the Father, their struggling good faith toward the Son, and their unaccomplished good efforts with the Spirit are good gestures of faith in response to Christ's complete good will, triumphant good faith, and accomplished good work.
I wonder if White actually KNOWS the diffrence between nuiance and contradiction?
If you can live a life of inconsistency, embrace Calvinism (TULIP).
The acronym tulip did not even come from John calvin, it came many years after his death
I find that Calvinist care more about what Calvin and other Calvinist leaders teach than what the Bible actually teaches.
Fully agree. They seem to worship the sovereignty of God and not God himself. It’s rather insane.
That is James whites debating style. He puts his head down and keeps pushing his position without answering questions.
Enough to know it's of the devil.
8:28 You've got your own equivocation of the leftists
"Orange man bad", Lol!!!
I bet many a Calvinist would hate that comparison >.
Love y’all
When you are so dishonest there can be only two options, 1 You must be dishonest to hide the truth 2. God preordained it
Brother Leighton,
I agree with you in doctrine, but my question is this: why stoop to James White's level by responding to his arrogant behavior? Just preach the word brother, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. James White is unteachable. When people elevate themselves as James does, constantly boasting of how intelligent they are, well...pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
I thank the Lord for you and your ministry. God's best to you and yours. In Jesus name.
That's the only weapon they got
James white is solid in explaining how we got the Bible, but when talking about Calvinism be turns into an absolute clown.
James White's photo is in the dictionary under the word "sophistry".
In Calvinism, if God wills some to do evil, then they are doing the will of the Father??
Calvinists address this by creating categories. They say there is the prescribed will of God and the decreed will of God. God prescribes to not do evil, but then decrees some to do evil, and it's just a mystery. This however has God's wills opposing one another.
Under a provisionist view, God prescribes all to not do evil, however His decreed will is to allow some to do evil. This harmonizes to the two wills of God and has actual scriptural support as compared to the latter.
Under Calvinism yes. But God has only 1 will: it is good and perfect. If I sin, it is against His will. Not everything is His will, that is why Jesus told us to pray His will be done on earth as in heaven. If His will was already done on earth, why pray for it to be done?
Loved the anology about the man pulling up a tree with a chain.
It’s ridiculous for Calvinists to dismiss and denigrate scholars like Ken Wilson and William Lane Craig while they venerate James White.
Does James White have a genuine doctorate? The degree is granted by an unaccredited correspondence school. There are no set course syllabi; students write their own syllabi. CES has no library, student services or bookstore. The school has no curriculum committees and no course review procedures. There appears to have been no committee and no thesis or dissertation defense; the only signature in James White's Masters Thesis is that of CES president, Rick Walston. White's "contract" was also with Rick Walston.
James White is just insufferable to listen to. He never gets to the point.
I’m a molonist because I can’t deny that God can know future free actions of creatures, and he also knows the possible outcomes from any one action, whether or not it’s actualized. It’s even in scripture!
There’s no way around it. I used to think molonism was such a strange philosophical conclusion, but it makes so much more sense when you simplify and summarize its attributes.
God can know all free choices, and he can also know possible outcomes of all possible choices. It’s really quite easy.
No I don't understand calvinism because it goes against the totality of scripture! Here's any easy one, a calvinist reading John 3:16. For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever God predetermined to give faith to shall not perish but have eternal life......WHAT?! HOW?
Master Fnog is at it again.
But, you see, I have the will of the warrior. Therefore, the battle is already over. The winner? Me! Rematch? You lose again! Had enough? I thought so!
Perhaps James White is allowed to maintain his Calvinistic viewpoint so we can have good debates on the topic and the flaws in Calvinism can be exposed. Who is James White to question why his deterministic viewpoints are being used to train other apologists?
Well once the Lord returns and or takes them from the world, both Leighton and James will both heartfeltly apologize to each other for any wrongdoing and literally sing Kumbaya my Lord together for all eternity in God's lap. That day will be truly a sight I wanna be there, hopefully, I am truly saved by the Good Lord.
@Brando "Some Calvinists say 'God causes the human to do evil, but it’s the body of the human that is to blame, so the blame lies on the physical body of the human as that is what actually engaged.' "
This is Gnostic philosophy, which is the origin of Augustine's error, then Calvin's error and now "Reformed" theology's error.
James White is just jealous because Leighton has all the Flowers, and all White has is a lousy TULIP!
James White ❤️ the genetic fallacy. It’s his favorite.
Yes! Especially when it comes to Molinism. How he loves to constantly point out that Molina was a Jesuit, as if that disproved Molinism.
Main reason that I point out that we don't need Molinism, when we have Bible passages like Genesis 4. The Bible shows that God knows the alternate possibilities and their consequences. They can't complain that God is a Jesuit; He isn't.
But someone always comes along to shame me for my anti-intellectualism.
@@lindajohnson4204 I think you make a valuable point. It is prudent to eschew labels, especially whenever superficial considerations might preclude a careful scrutiny of substantive claims or concepts.
Those like James White and John Piper don't know the true God of the Bible.
That's much too strong an accusation. White and Piper have a misguided understanding of how God exercises His sovereignty, but a perfect theological understanding is not required to have a saving knowledge of God.
@@jameshayes211 You must not know what they believe.
@@bobbyadkins6983 They believe the gospel. And, they have an inaccurate understanding of how God exercises His sovereignty.
@@jameshayes211 You can't believe and teach that God is the cause of all the wickedness in the world and know God. Part of the Gospel is that Jesus died for all. They teach that he didn't. That's perverting the Gospel.
Galatians 1:7-9
[7]Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9]As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
@@bobbyadkins6983 A person is saved by trusting in Christ---not by acing a theology exam. The difference between the Galatian Judaizers, whom Paul anathematizes, and Piper and White is that the Judaizers were trusting in their observance of Torah to justify them before God whereas Piper and White explicitly confess a trust exclusively in Christ for their justification before God.
Why would God repent for putting man on the earth if he determined their depravity?
He wouldn't. That's the first verse in the bible that does, in fact, refute determinism.
Great point. He obviously would not.
I’ve heard it said if you come across a child in a sandbox that is creating people in his image, then destroying them, that is abnormal, and you should keep your child away from them.
How is the calvinist god any different?
"turn the other cheek, unless you deem then a heretic, then burn them at the stake without mercy MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH"
Call James white for a debate again
Live we will listen
Leighton looks like he got a fresh cut! 💇🏻♂️ 💫 😎 👌🏻
I've seen this episode several times and the ending is a great one from 129:00 to 138:00 would be a good clip
Leighton, You left out the bits where Uncle Jimmy talks about the Calvinist God manipulating the mind of Satan to accomplish sin and evil.
😮. Where is that?
James White shouldn't be taken seriously on this topic. He's proven that with Leighton Flowers, Tim Stratton/Tyson James, Ken Wilson, and William Lane Craig.
Didnt check all my mistakes
I believe what this theological argument is leading to is there is Calvinism and there is James White.
Around the 57:00 mark this here hit the Calvinists hardest. Brenton really flared up trying to say 'hey look over there!' by repeating over and over 'But where does the world come from?' Sorry Brenton Leighton's picking apart of the chain of determinism is exactly why no one should try and depict God as what a Calvinist defines him as... For me you are a blasphemer Brenton. Repent of your folly. You really sully your supposed Father's name with your system. Baffling stuff.
I dint understand why christians say that Calvinists are brothers and sisters in christ. We dont say mirmans and JW's are in christ and they don't have the evil teaching that nakes God the author of evil. If someone makes God evil, that seems to me that that would be one of the worst things to make God. Even worse than the cults. O dont want to judge. Only God knows their hearts but if i said that God is evil i dont think anyone would think i was a christian.
34:54 Asinine indeed. White is dug into his subjective beliefs. Sadly, my Southern Baptist church out of Jacksonville Florida had lost its strong influence for traditional conservatism in the Body of Christ, not long after Calvinism crept into it.
49:38, 50:08
51:10, 51:49 - Flowers addressing secondary causes, links in the chain analogy
Fitting song! Love intro
I would like to hear a Calvinist explain what the moral differences are between a human and an animal.
I agree with James White on KJV Onlyism, but I disagree with his theology.
We have no right to even accuse God of being the author of evil, that is a foolhardy thing to even say. The idea that we, as created beings, would tell our creator what is right for Him to do and what is not, is the height of arrogance. Remember God's answer to Job, where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth.
Proof that Uncle Jimmy tosses and turns at night because he can’t get Dr. Flowers out of his head! 😂
Really because I listen to Dr White and he often doesn't mention Dr Flowers or provisionism for months on end
Flowers on the other hand can't seem to go one week without a several hours long specifically on a 5 minute segment from Dr White.
If I was struggling and doubting the existence of God or the reliability of scripture or considering converting to Islam could you point me to a single word from Dr Flowers that would help me?
Is that balanced?
Is that even healthy??
@@Michael-uk3pj It’s called John 3:16. He mentions it frequently and actually believes God loves everyone. Imagine my Muslim friend listing to JW and hearing that same verse and realizing he may not actually be loved by God as a matter of fact that most humans are in fact not loved by God. Yes that would definitely make him want to be a Christian. 👍
@@kevinkleinhenz6511 you think that listening to Dr Flowers saying the sovereignty of God in salvation is evil will help refute the arguments of Muslim apologists?
So God loved Esau just the same as Jacob?
Calvin and calvinists don't deny that God loves everyone just that also has a special love for his people - Israel in the OT the church in the NT...
Calvinists also believe that the offer of the gospel is open to anyone as we don't know who the elect are...
Do you believe everyone WILL go to heaven?
Do you believe God knows and we don't who will be saved?
Can he be wrong about that...
It seems that regardless of the question of Calvinism there are people who will not be saved, we don't know who so we preach the gospel to all people.
So none of what you said is at all meaningful...
@@kevinkleinhenz6511 interesting that you can't seem to defend anything positive about your own position
I didn't ask you for another attack on Dr White or Calvinism
I asked you to show the positive affect of provisionism for someone struggling in their faith
If someone asked you "how I be sure Jesus is the son of God and how can I trust the bible?" Would your answer be "let me tell you how evil James White and Calvinism are?"
@@Michael-uk3pj What good is it to tell a Muslim that the Bible is True and the message is that God has already picked a few to save the rest He picked to burn forever. There are some groups of Muslims that are deterministic and so they might believe you. The message of the Gospel is whosoever will let him come and drink. God absolutely loved everyone and wants all to be saved but only those who accept his offer shall be saved. Calvinism offers zero hope or assurance because according to Calvin you may think you are saved but in the end find out you were not God just made you think you were. Determinism is non-livable and gives no hope because it’s not Biblical.
So is James White now running back from his previous position that God does ordain evil rather than it being purposelessness??? Wow talk about chameleons...
We need a playlist with the decalvinized intro songs
"Who are you to question God determining the evil actions of man?" I'm questioning YOU, not God. I KNOW God is good and I think the idea of EDD is serving to undermine that truth.
Is God really so unknowable? Yes, in his actions, he proves to be so far greater than us that in our rebellion we are infinitely separate from him. But can we therefore not be confident in his good character? Can I not rightly say "God can't do evil?" God is not so unknowable that we can have no faith in his character. This is that "Omnipotent fiend" idea that I guess C.S. Lewis talks about and Leighton references.
In listening to 18 minutes of this video here's the thought that came to my mind, because I also have done (and will be tempted to do) this also. What do you think?
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" TItus 3:9 -11 KJV
I know this verse refers to the law, but can't there also be an application to any type religious argument such as this? I think so. I"m not saying don't argue at all, Put forth your case and then let it be. No one is going to change Dr. White's mind. And he already has been admonished at least twice, actually way more than that. At some point, just let him be. Fight the temptation to be dragged by his responses back into the argument. I'm saying this in humility because I am also tempted to do the same! Continue to preach to your audience about the evils of TULIP. (Edit: because TULIP has been such a source of pain for those who try to understand it ias being true and then follow it to it's logical conclusion and find that no one can truly have enough assurance they are saved. JC Ryle is credited as saying: "Let us never be guilty of sacrificing any portion of the truth on the altar of peace." But does that mean to argue endlessly?)
White laughs, sneers, scoffs but does not answer objections. White's "defense" thus rests on an "Argument by Arrogance" which posits that "I know how to answer this question but, if I told you, you would not UNDERSTAND so it would not be worthwhile to explain"
The basis of White's remarks is his purely imaginary idea of where the offending idea comes from, in other words, it is simply another expression of the genetic fallacy which is the:
act of rejecting or accepting an argument on the basis of its ORIGIN rather than its content. Under the genetic fallacy, we judge a claim by paying too much attention to its source or history, even though this criticism is irrelevant to the truth of the claim.
God ordaining sin and evil is "impugning the character of God" and is " inexcusable" and should "tread very lightly doing".....but you still think such a god that the Calvinists believe in is the Christian God? Sooner or later, the laws of logic catch up to you.
Calvinists agree that God is triune, that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. They affirm the Nicene Creed.
They’re far more orthodox than Islam or LDS.
I agree that Calvinism is unbiblical and theologically deficient. But, I cringe when Calvinists are accused of not being Christian, or when Calvinists accuse me or other non-Calvinists of not being Christian. Ad hominem arguments don't serve to promote rational discourse. And, it should be acknowledged that a perfect theological understanding is not required to have a genuine and saving knowledge of the living God.
@@jameshayes211 Different gospel.
@@ACTSVERSE No. Paul defines the gospel in 1 Cor 15: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
I affirm, with my Calvinist brethren, Paul's definition of the gospel. And, I strive to correct my Calvinist brothers' misguided understanding of how God exercises His sovereignty.