Hey leighton, we are christians from belgium and we thank you for your effort to expose calvinism...we are blessed by your arguments and teachings and your christian attitude...God bless you for your ministry...
Ps Durbin I hold you in high esteem as I've benefited from your ministry at large.I find it strange scolding Dr Flowers for acting childish when you never take time to talk to your mentor Dr White who has a very condescending retorts about Dr Flowers at a time I wasn't even following the man yet his demeaning dismissal of his position compelled me to go listen to Dr Flowers and I was unchained from the Calvinism prison.
Good word, brother. Very clear explanation of both views. Letting both sides speak for themselves leaves nothing to wonder about. God is good and so loving to have provided salvation for every sinner and draw all men to come. Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Sad that many resist His drawing.
A-You miss represented me. B-Could you tell me how? A-Stop being dishonest. B-I'm playing your words. A-You're unwilling to engage with me. B-You're welcome to explain yourself. Is person A or person B more likely to be a good faith interlocutor.
@@michaelnewswanger2409 - A saying comes to mind, something along the lines of -It Is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends on his not understanding It...
Hey, Dr. Flowers, I just brought your new book. I also bought it in the audio format so I can listen on the go. I love your content. Keep up the great work.
I can't understand why some Calvinists paint you as being a jerk. You are very respectful and considerate the vast majority of the time (no one is perfect). They are triggered by you for some reason so they have to try to make you look bad. Probably because you bring up valid flaws in their beloved systematic that they cant defend.
Thank you, Dr. Flowers for your wonderful work! I truly appreciate this video. You have allowed me to CLEARLY understand the error from Apologia Studios related to your defense of John 6. Please keep up the great work because there are many of us out here who depend on it. God bless!!!
I would argue that part of the reason you may have been blocked from Apologia was not only because they don't want to hear anything other than what they already believe, but also, and perhaps more importantly, they don't want any of their followers to hear what you have to say.
@flynnhuseby3431: Absolutely spot on! Durbin does not want his followers to hear Leighton's position/argument. The "why," is obvious. There will never be a cordial and casual lunch with Leighton. Setting doctrinal beliefs aside, emotional maturity matters. I walk away from any preacher teacher who repeatedly behaves poorly toward others.....even if we share identical beliefs.
Jeff Durbin won’t come on your show or invite you to his, because you would expose them in real time. They know you can hold your own, and are scared you will enlighten their listeners. They only invite people who they know are no real threat to their followers.
Who Can't? If you're a Calvinist show where it says before the foundation of the world in Romans 9? Because I read it 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” In the womb she was told “The older will serve the younger.” that's God's sovereign election that the older brother Esau will serve Jacob. Has nothing to do with salvation. Esau never did serve Jacob either so much for the sovereign election of God. Time to come home God's knocking @@Davian_James
Mr. Flowers, Thank you for all your content! I find great encouragement in your videos. I too have had these kind of back and forths with orher Christians who behave similar to Durbin and White. The way you handle it is refreshing. I have accepted that I can't win over everyone and not all people can be rational and reasonable. If this was going on in your personal life I would suggest you part ways or get some breathing room between you and these discussions. But in your case, this is a public discourse, and your response videos are helping others and exposing errors. Keep up the good work!! Blessings!!
Leighton i could listen to you almost all day😉 because I believe what you are doing is so important. I have learned so much and continue to learn. Thank you!
When I first started to listen to you I couldn’t last more than thirty minutes before my mind would just go blank now I enjoy listening all day to your videos, keep fighting the good fight brother leighton
You have encouraged me so much Leighton!! You are not unfair or contentious at all. It never ceases to amaze me how people interpret things. Jeff Durban and James White and even John MacArthur can really get me discouraged by some of the way they say things. If I didn’t know better, I would get the impression God is a nasty control Freak!! I just cannot imagine our loving eternal God being like that!! If God was actually like that, Christianity just contradicts itself all over the place. To say these things add confusion is an understatement. This is why I love your ministry. Your like a drink of fresh water in a Calvinistic desert.🌵I think a lot of this comes down to intellectual honesty. They have to resort to logical fallacies because their position isn’t theologically defensible in the end…
Jeff blocked you on twitter because he was predestined to block you. Joking! He blocked you in order to ignore your points of contention. Great video Dr Flowers ❤
I am loving your channel! Thank you for the detailed responses to the ongoing Calvinist debate. I'm learning so much from you! So disappointing how many people I once respected have turned out to be subscribers/peddlers of this messed up theology!
It's a logical fallacy to think that mankind is "morally culpable" for sin, If he was already rejected by his God before time began and never given the chance to repent.
I have thought about Calvinism alot in the last couple of years, because I was trying to figure out where a church that I attended during covid (which turned out to be engaging in stealth calvinism) was coming from. My understanding is owed in part to Leighton Flowers and his guests, but mainly looking at favorite calvinist proof texts. My reaction to the John 6 debate is as follows. It is a mishandling of scripture, to take a passage, such as Jo 6:44-45, that is not exhaustive in its explanation, even in its immediate context, and that does not explicitly state a doctrine to which you hold, and press that passage into service as a proof text for your doctrine. With such texts it is necessary to, as Leighton did, take into consideration all of scripture, in making an interpretation of the ambiguous one. This is one of the first lessons you learn in bible college. Interpret scripture with scripture. Also White and other Calvinists have a propensity of shoehorning proof texts into their systematic theology. In so doing they often completely ignore the first century rabbinical/Judaic means of teaching that Jesus obviously employs. Anyone who is familiar with the Gospels, will understand that Jesus circles around with various parables and statements taking another pass at the concepts for his rather slow disciples, so that eventually they get a cumulative understanding of what he's teaching. This is well understood as a rabbinical style of teaching. Calvinists tend to think in greek, categorical, and post enlightenment ways that are wooden and quite frankly, self serving. Though they argue that expositional teaching is a big deal for them, calvinists routinely display ignorance of, or choose to ignore such cultural-historical understandings that would aid interpretation. This is not surprising, given that they are completely committed to a French lawyer of the 16th century (Calvin) who, in turn, is devoted to a 5th century bishop ignorant of the original languages and had deep gnostic influences (Augustine). Calvinists are also committed to various European confessions, codified doctrine, which they frequently quote and teach systematically in catechisms. Presuppositions determining Bible interpretation? ... ill-advised.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura I'm sure you're probably aware of it but Dr. Ken Wilson, an expert on Augustine and the patristic Fathers, would beg to differ. See his interviews on Soteriology 101. Very interesting. Trigger warning; it will make you uncomfortable.
“And here just in, you were listening to ‘the college mind in effect’ where you find out new information, and act as though your mind has superior levels of intelligence, yet say silly causal phrases”
@@ZachFish- incorrect. Years of ministry experience. Dealt with Calvinists trying to convert me from a long way back. I have experienced stealth Calvinism firsthand. I have experienced the smug sense of superiority of people who think they are deeper thinkers with knowledge of deeper doctrines. Oh... just wait a minute... I'm experiencing it right now! ... PS I think you meant casual not causal.
@@martinfroelich7193 Being experienced with reformed soteriology doesn’t really mean much, seeing as humans have all sorts of backgrounds and end up believing different things. The whole “Calvinist just take a verse and twist it out of context” point, along with the whole last section, and the end of your comment, I would say there’s definitely an emotional block toward Calvinism. (Couldn’t care less if you’re convinced of an Arminian, Calvinist, Catholic, or Provisionist view tho).
@@ZachFish- No emotional block man. What are you my shrink? Just noting the tendency of Calvinists to be cagy and puffed up. I'm ready to believe what the scriptures teac, and they don't teach Calvinism. Determinism makes God a monster. And double predestination is not only something the God revealed in scripture would ever do, it is despicable. It renders all of the thousands divine calls for man to repent, to obey, to love to believe and to trust -at best nonsensical, at worst You can tell Calvinists by and large have surrendered their own sense-making to various authorities, and wrapped it in a guise of piety and claims that they have the highest view of God. They invent their own nonbiblical definitions of God's sovereignty, predestination and election. They could care less about the justice and love of God if they are hardcore hyper Calvinists, or they have resigned themselves to living in the cognitive dissonance of "Compatiblism".
@Veltresworld Impossible to do with a Calvinist sophist because they're married to emotionally impactful language for rhetorical purposes rather than the concepts the language is describing. To "understand Calvinism" is to recite their exact rhetoric, not to lay out a concept. This is because they're afraid of how monstrous the concept is to most people removed from their favorable presentation of it. It's a meta form of question begging.
@@Mikey11001 buddy there is no monstrous concept within calvinism☠️. every single concept within calvinism is backed up by hundreds of verses. it’s been around since before the early Church Fathers. every video i see of flowers he appeals to his feelings instead of the actual debate at hand. for example look at the debate over john 6. Flowers brought up babies dying when it had nothing to do with the debate. flowers is still a brother in Christ but man i cannot stand this guy…
@Veltresworld Most people view the idea of God creating most humans for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever with nothing they can do about it to be monsterous. Your response to this will be either I don't understand Calvinism, which really means you want it framed in a more positive way for rhetorical purposes, which proves my first post correct. Or, your response will be that I am dependent on my emotions. Which is nonsense because if our moral intuitions are not on some level a reflection of God's character, then the Bible makes no sense when it uses terms like love, hate, or justice without defining them. It presupposes an intuitive understanding of these concepts within humans. How do you know when the Bible talks about love, it isn't talking about doing things like torturing a puppy 8 hours a day? Because of your moral intuitions. For the same reason, the reflexive outrage people have at the idea of determinism is a valid objection to Calvinism; humans simply understand it isn't just.
@@Mikey11001 Very wrong misrepresentation again!!! Clearly you have not read any church fathers writings or any creeds and confessions LOL. We calvinists don’t believe God created most humans to get tortured 😭. Most humans go to hell because they have all SINNED against God. you know the verse, “the wages of sin is death”. We humans DESERVE death. Lam 3:39, “why should a living man complain about the punishment of his sin?” Who are you to complain about the sin that nonbelievers and as-well as believers deserve? Literally read John 6:44. nobody can come to the Father unless he draws(or chooses) him. all who are chosen will be raised up on the last day. If God drew every single person to him every single person would be saved (universalism) (heresy). Obviously not everyone is Christian which means God has not drawn every single person. there’s no way around John 6:44. Unless your willing to admit that all who are drawn to God are saved you have to admit not everyone is drawn. It’s VERY unjust for God to send some people to hell. it would only be just if God sent us ALL TO HELL. we all deserve to go to hell. That’s why God has mercy on some of us. And chooses us even though we don’t choose him(John 15:16)
So with what theology do you hold regarding salvation? I myself think the term "provisionist" is quite cringe. I would prefer "orthodox", as that is the way the church unanimously agreed on for salvation for 1500 years (even after the great schism of 1054 AD). With both the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believing that it is a combination of both God drawing us, and us choosing Him, which is continued on today with the baptists, methodists, RC, EO, etc etc
I do believe the logic of an all powerful God doing His will as a Calvinists does but I believe He wishes none to perish so I don't believe in an Eternal Hell. I say believe but my beliefs shift I just pursue truth and listen to all sides and am hopefully my research in Total Reconciliation (aka Christian Universalism) is correct. I actually think LF has more holes in his theology scripturally and logically but his behavior is consistent and the other sides mocking and mischaracterizations is lame. That part about the thumbnail... Lol... Wow... Jeff lost me on that one. One example from history on my current beliefs. Frank Schwedes Patristic Apocatastasis (from Acts 3:21) believes Jesus will win all people back, come Hell or high-water. God, through Jesus Christ, will ultimately rescue and convince ALL to receive their rebirth, even if it is after, as the church father Origen described, much "gnashing of teeth," prolonged emotional anguish, and stubborn mental resistance. Many will hold out for extended periods of time in this "outer darkness," but all will eventually experience "coals of cathartic conviction" and repent. They will finally see that against an irresistibly virtuous God there is no eternal defense. As the lies are burned away, every soul will come to itself and behold this champion truth-- Jesus Christ is God's rescuing love.
@@kevinjypiter6445 "So with what theology do you hold regarding salvation?" I think St. Clement said it well in 1 Clement 32, "And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever." Too often, I think we start thinking it is our wisdom and understanding that save us. It is not." The Gospel is not Calvinism, nor Provisioning, nor Orthodox, nor Catholic, nor Lutheran, nor any other man-made tradition. It is in Christ and through Chist and for Christ, alone. Jesus, "How will they know you are MY disciples?" If you LOVE one another. Yet, we call each other the most horrid things in the name of defending man's best attempts of trying to understand "how" and "when" God saves us.
When it comes to Calvinist these two guys Jeff and James are very arrogant when it comes to their Calvinist views. Jeff isn’t as bad as James but when Calvinism comes into play he is. Neither of them can prove Calvinism without twisting scripture and leaving out scripture. They love to make out like those who oppose Calvinism just don’t know scripture and they dismiss any other view.
The most amazing thing about this is man is unable to do anything without grace. Until you can humble yourself to believe that, you are kicking against the goads.. I know it sounds like a treacherous painful thing.. But do it with an open heart and see with new eyes.
@@koraegis correct, no one can come to Christ without grace. God showed us that Grace when Jesus died and was raised for the sins of the world. That is our Grace. We in turn must, as Ephesians 1:13 says, hear the gospel that Grace and believe. When we do, it states just like in several places in scripture, we will be saved.
Listening to Durbin “respectfully” mock the provisionist view grieves me. I’m newer coming out of Calvinism and there are still days I have doubts especially being a member at my reformed church. All that to say, it grieves me to think of when we all enter eternity and meet each other there, stand face to face with our savior, if Calvinism is false, the things they are making fun of will feel dreadful if they find out they were wrong and held so strongly to such an opposing view of God’s love and provision to all people. I can only imagine the sorrow. It’s days like today where I long for the day we all know the truth and there’s no more division between brothers.
Check out JA Medder's book Humble Calvinism. He's a Calvinist, writing to Calvinists about Calvinists and how they should be MORE humble and respectful.
@@bwc6520 Because it's just part of debating. Leighton questions their integrity all the time. For the record, I think Leighton is awesome. I just don't Jeff was some huge ass here.
@@luthlexor123 I haven't heard Leighton question their integrity, at least not in the way his was questioned. I don't agree that what Jeff said (about Leighton's integrity) has anything to do with the topic they're disputing; which was what the early "Church Fathers" supported in their writings. I think Leighton was earnest in his critique.
Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Well, Leighton has never said “I refuse to respond, listen or give them the time of day, to White or Durban because they are mean and have no integrity.”
I haven't seen Leighton before, but I stopped wanting to really watch Apologia because it seemed he was quick to be the judge of someone being not on the faith and just writing them off.
That would actually be better, But it’s much worse, they claim their belief system actually justifies their personal attacks and condescending attitudes.
@@atyt11 that's true, it is a scary thing to use the Scriptures in such a way to tear people down. Seems like Jesus had some strong words for Pharisees doing this in the New Testament
The more I listen to Jeff Durbin the less I am impressed with his ability to have original thought. At least as far as Calvinism goes, he seems to simply regurgitate all of the Calvinists talking points without giving any real logical or exegetical reason for it. He just reads and listens to his Calvinists mentors and then never seems to think critically about what he's taught.
All Calvinists theologians want you to pretend their immutable decree is passive, while men committing these decreed sins of God, are active. They argue that man is 100% at fault for their sins and worthy of damnation, while simultaneously teaching that man has 0% ability to do anything outside God's immutable decree. When you expose them and show them their logical flaws, that man can do nothing outside God's immutable decree, including sinning-- therefore God is 100% at fault for these sins -- Calvinists immediately blameshift, gaslight, label, belittle, scoff & claim intellectual superiority because you REFUSE TO PRETEND their immutable decree should be ignored. You have too much Biblical, theological ammunition for Jeff Durbin -- "he's appealing to emotion!!!" while ignoring your Biblical & logical arguments is all he can mustard.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura - I do not see the initial comment of this thread as an "objection", but as a series of observations. (Rather astute and apropos observations it seems to me, if a bit presumptuous in some places.) I suspect you see it as an objection, because you don't want to see it as an accurate reflection of a pointless belief system, that serves no useful purpose in service of our Lord.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura - "... I think it's safe to say it's an objection." Me too! That's just what I was trying to say that "I suspect" . . Apparently too clumsily, my apologies. "I affirm God is causally responsible for human decisions, but that is not a problem from "inside calvinism"." I've noticed, trust me, but it's a problem for me (and others it seems clear). "If you have an argument for why libertarian (self-determined, categorical) free will is necessary and biblical, I am happy to hear it.)" I take it you mean you 'would be' happy to hear such an argument. And I can believe you would be, because it would allow you to continue to avoid addressing the observations this thread is based on. (Which is to say you would be happy to change the subject ; )
It seems so clear that what you’re saying is obvious with no contradictions and they’re the ones who have to run roughshod all through the text to come to a conclusion. Just listening to you I clearly understand what you’re conveying, and what you say they’re doing is exactly what they’re doing.
I'm fifteen minutes into this. I'm just now watching. I was busy doing something which prevented my watching those first fifteen minutes, but I was listening. I have zero previous knowledge of Jeff Durban. My impression of him based on those first fifteen minutes is that he is consumed with anger. He sounds as if he has a level of anger which one finds characteristic of people who have Cluster B personality disorder. I'm not a doctor, and if I were, I couldn't make a diagnosis based on those fifteen minutes, but man, that guy is just being eaten alive by his anger.
I've never heard a proper response to these arguments from calvinists. All I hear is them restating calvinism by making two conflicting claims at the same time, and gaslighting the audience into thinking that the blatant contradiction is Biblical.
Augustine and Calvin had to eliminate ANY voluntary, autonomous action of humans.....except bad human actions, those actions are not voluntary. "Come, let us reason together."
It seems like a lot of Calvanists have a deep sense of pride in thinking that they are chosen by God, arbitrarily. I, too, believe Christ's atonement is for all (the world), it's just a matter of those repenting and believing in Christ thus becoming born again. Leighton, I love what you do in sharing and defending your Christian views and represent well those who aren't Calvanist. I think you are mature in your ways and it is a shame Jeff Durbin seems to have taken offense by you and doesn't want to debate/discuss with you. I, too, think Jeff is a cool, dude!!
I never understood presuppositional apologetics. It always sounded like circular reasoning to me. When I was doubting my faith, it was evidential apologetics that helped strengthen my faith. Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell were atheists trying to disprove Jesus and in the process became Christians. Yes, the Holy Spirit was also working on them, but I believe he works on all people. He may use our minds to bring us to faith. For others, through miracles. For others, from Christ like love from Christians.
There is a serious problem in modern discourse where people seem to think that if they say words in response to someone's point that equals a refutation. Refutation is only refutation where it disqualifies the basis for the belief. Refutation take time and effort, it is not simply restating what you believe.
Jeff Durbin is well aware of that. He likes the rhetorical impact of calling responses refutations. Emotional manipulation and dishonest rhetoric are common among Calvinists.
Who is at fault when a Christian FAILS to read? Often, Romans 3: 10-18 is cited as proof of Total Depravity. Paul is quoting O.T. to his audience, jews familiar with the O.T. Do Christians then read, Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53: 1-3? No. They read, "There is none who does good," and assume it means all human beings, when the passages specifically states, "the fool." Who is the fool? "The fool says in his heart, there is no God." Whether it's Flowers, Durbin or White, or our pastor, WE are responsible to read and study scripture.....and not expect the Cliff Notes of the bible be delivered to us.
A Calvinists accusing you of misrep is the best example of a gaslighter. The bottomline why they don’t accept the free will stance is because they misrep FW proponents to be claiming salvation because of their effort. Not one true FW believing Christian will ever say it is because of him why he was saved. The flipside of this is the Calvinists misrep that we don’t give glory to God, and they alone do.
Leighton, you are so very clear and easy to understand. I am not sure why these Calvinists keep stating things you clearly don't believe. Jeff is a smart guy, It makes you wonder how he can believe such nonsense. You Leighton were once a Calvinist, but you wanted to know the truth even if it went against your current beliefs. Does this mean God decided to decreed you from being a reprobate into a Calvinist. Then some years later decided to decree you back to a reprobate as a provisionalist to expose calvinism?!
Jeff from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I find it so interesting that Jeff Durban is more concerned about his looks than the actual disagreement ,pretty sad. But he looks like someone who's very concerned about his looks. I guess I just need some extra strength Calvinal for Jeff!!!😂
There is nothing consistent in Calvinism. Calvinism is STUPID. I just find it laughable that Durbin suggests that it is Leighton that is lacking in integrity. The guy needs to go look in a mirror. I'm now more and more inclined to go beyond what Leighton is saying, and don't take Calvinistic leaders as even offering the same gospel. It is a cult, and not even a consistent cult. If the god of Calvinism is in charge of everything, then it is even his fault when the saints don't persevere to the end. But the way perseverance often gets put is as though it is the person who has failed, which couldn't be true if the god of Calvinism were the real God.
@@truthseeker5698 Exactly. St Paul in Romans contrasts faith and works but Calvinists want to pretend that if we exercise faith that would be the same as a work of righteousness - they end up teaching a different gospel.
HOW STUPID IS CALVINISM? S - Sovereignty of God - This is the point that is usually missed out in the Calvinist's 5 points. Calvinism teaches that god has to micromanage every tiny detail of existence and cannot allow any real agency to any other being human or spiritual. T - Total Depravity/Inability - This teaches that not even God himself could enable man (a human being) to understand and accept God's offer of grace and salvation for themselves. Either God makes them believers or they are damned from before they were born. U - Unconditional election - This is the idea that God has chosen those who will be saved, made them elect, from before they were born and that God chooses them regardless of any faith that they have of themselves or receive from God. Basically this teaches that you do not receive grace and express faith to be saved but that God must regenerate and save you before you can experience faith. This goes against Sola Fide or faith alone. P - Perseverance of the Saints - In Calvinism again God can only give assurance of eternal life to the saints (believers) by controling every detail of existence. to use a chess analogy God has to play both sides of the table to win. He cannot assure His will by being the chess champion but only by being a chess cheat. I - Irresistible Grace - this is saying that God never allows his grace to be resisted. So when Jesus could not do great works in places where people did not believe in Him it was because God didn't want to, despite what the text may infer. In fact we can choose to accept or resist the grace that God gives to us. D - Delimited Atonement - God has already chosen those who will be saved and those who will be lost and nothing humans can do or neglect doing can make any difference to the eternal destinies that God has already chosen for people from before they have done anything right or wrong. Even worse, the way some Calvinists use Perseverance of the Saints means that there is no real assurance of salvation in the Calvinist system either. Only if you manage to persevere to the very end, without backsliding can you be sure of salvation, or anyone else be sue of your salvation. In the end, it depends on your WORKS to the end to prove that you are saved at all.
While talking to a friend about this video, he stated this. "Flowers just told Jeff, that if Jeff didn't like something Leighton had stated, that Jeff should take it up with God since God predetermined everything. I call that game, set, match." I call it game-set-match x 1000.
Looks like durbin is James White jr. They sound like the same person. What gives them away, besides their ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture, is that they run from confrontation. They call names, they misrepresent, they dismiss and demean, but they refuse to defend their views face to face, one on one, in real time. LF has a standing invitation and practically begs them to debate their viewpoints in real time with him, but they refuse. Do they ever extend the same invitation to him? Of course not. That is how you know unequivocally that they are frightened. They are afraid of Leighton, and they are afraid that he is right. Because if he is, they are out of business so to speak. They have built their christian existence around Calvinism rather than around Christ.
I’m not a Calvinist but I do believe that our flesh came from the same flesh that Adam and Eve had and their flesh was condemned to die. Therefore we are living with a flesh that is condemned. We need Jesus Christ to save us. If not there could be people that died never sinning and would got to Heaven and they would never call Jesus their Savior. Am I wrong, Dr Flowers? 🤔
Wow!!!! It is astonishing how inconsistent even some of the most “credible” Calvinists are. Then they criticize us for pointing out their inconsistency.
24:00 Look at how muted the vibe in that studio is. No energy or joy there. Your argumentation is on point and you can see it. It seems that what bothers them most is the effectiveness of your argument, which isn't because of 'emotions' but because of our intuition for justice. WE don't have to nuance THEIR position. Ultimately the most effective statements are like this CS Lewis quote: "The doctrine of Total Depravity - when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing - may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship." Or this one by Roger E Olson: “Only a moral monster would refuse to save persons when salvation is absolutely unconditional and solely an act of God that does not depend on free will.” And let's not forget effective questions. We need a Provisionist version of the 'what is a woman' question. Leighton, keep going on the offensive. Together with IdolKiller and ProvisionistPerspective and ChurchSplit and others, you are finding out in realtime what works best. And that inspires us to be more effective in the discussion in our own circles!
That’s got to be one of the best points I’ve seen . Leighton said why is God in Calvinism holding out his hands to people has determined to be a reprobate . He’s right . That has to be the biggest contradiction ever .
I, also, deny the false doctrine of "original sin" where a newborn is condemned to eternal punishment because he/she inherits Adam's sin (of serving his wife instead of God.) A newborn inherits a cursed world (locked away from the tree of life) and physical death. We also inherit an eternal soul, which is clean and pure, in the image of God. In time, we too, like Adam, make a decision to sin and separate our soul from God. Spiritual death is a consequence of our personal rebellion against God. Alas, we need a Messiah! And His immersion in water for a clean soul AND His Gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 and all instances of conversion in the Acts of the Apostles.)
White - "Can cows fly?". Flowers - "No, of course not!". White - "What if cows actually do fly? What would that do to your belief that cows can't fly?". Flowers - "Well, if cows could fly then I would be wrong and you would be right." White - "Debate over! My opponent just agreed with me that cows can fly!"
After watching the debate, and several discussions/critiques of the debate; regarding John 6:44, I’m wondering nobody voices that the most you can say about the verse is that those who come were drawn. The verse says nothing about those who don’t come. So, at least the possibility exists that those who don’t come might also have been drawn but chose not to come. You can’t get any further within the verse.
A discussion would be better than a debate. James White is protected by the rules of engagement in a debate format. He I don't think would ever be willing to sit down at a roundtable discussion with you.
Notice how jeff does the James white tap dance Greek acrobatics when he has no argument,jeff says we are made in the "amogo dayee" as if someone how him quoting latin makes is argument win, when the greek has nothing to do with whether he's right or wrong but the clavinist will be like "he sounds so smart" did you hear that latin
Their critique among their own James W club is so obviously dishonest and one sided that Dr. Flowers simple rebuttal of his claims are super easy to follow and true to honest biblical reasoning. It’s absolutely clear as to why they don’t want a live discussion or debate. 🤦🏻♂️
As far as I am aware, a “rebellion” acts on its own will. If God, under Calvinism, decreed man’s rebellion, it isn’t such. They’re like soldiers following an order/decree that was given.
Leighton regardless of the Calvanism debate I think your view on presuppositonal apologetics is unfortunately mistaken because even people like Jay Dyer who is an Orthodox apologist (he has a soteriology very similar to yours) uses the transcendental argument for God. We all are presuposing basic things in order to function in the world. For example, you presuppose language has meaning in order to debate against Calvanists because if it didn't, what would the point be? If we then argue that there is something that we must presuppose to get things like language having meaning and regularity, ect, then that means that thing must exist, and we would call that thing God. Personally, I think that's a really strong argument.
The reason why Dr.White should have never debated Flowers is because he now has 10 more years of content to go off of like the Romans 9 Debate ..... all we did was add fuel to this fire
Why does all of scripture repeat God's directive that we act/behave in a specific ways, if humans are unable to do so? The Calvinist fix for this is to claim God will intervene to cause humans to believe.
What I don't understand is per their systematic other really trying to debate is God's determinism, remember it's God who determined you to come against Calvinism but yet they all act like it's a free will decision
Dr. Flowers I love almost all your videos including this one, and I mean no disrespect, but I just thought it was funny... Around 45:40 you mention the "new hamster confession". I would love to hear a new hamster confession of faith. Honestly those hamsters really need to update their confession.
I wish Calvinists would stop clouding the reasoning space with presupposed Calvinistic lingo distinctives when confronted with basic theological implications on their system.
I'm from the Jeff Durbin, James white, calvinist camp and I came here after watching Durbins video. I gotta be fair, regarding the thumbnail, it's clear this wasnt done to make Durbin look silly or anything like that. You do have plenty of cool thumbnails of Durbin for sure. 😎 I agree this isn't a good reason to write you off or anything like that and I hope Durbin pulls back from that statement. Anyways, God bless you all over here.
@@Spartanthermopylae yup. These guys are not dumb. Yet, somehow they say they believe such conflicting tenets. God controls every thought and deed and you are responsible for the sinful choices God makes for you......?!?!??? Whaaaah?😦😦😦😦
I do like a lot of Jeff’s work and ministry (specifically his work on abortion). However, on his view isn’t every aborted baby killed by the decree and will of God? I’m sorry if the is “feel-a-Jesus” but Jeff should follow his Calvinistic presuppositions to their natural conclusion.
You are correct - the death of aborted babies is not even as evil as the most evil event in history - the torture and murder of God's own sinless son for the redemption of sinners. God the Father, Son and Spirit planned the death of God the Son as the most evil event in human history at the hands of sinful humanity so that sinners could be redeemed. God explicitly tells us he takes full responsibility for people's suffering in Exodus 4:11-13. "Who makes blind or deaf or lame - is it not I the Lord?" (paraphrase). Reading provisionist arguments feels like reading people who rail against the God of the Bible who does whatever he pleases in heaven and on earth, and no one can talk back to him or ask "What are you doing" or call him unjust (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9 Esau/Jacob). We are told to conform our thinking to the Bible - be transformed by renewing our minds. Provisionist arguments sound like human moral arguments, "But that would be wrong or unjust!" "But then God would be responsible for evil!", all the while ignoring that God takes responsibility for evil and these arguments presuppose that God owes us good, rather than us deserving punishment.
@beaZ136 calvinism makes God out to be pure evil. God is the author of sin in calvinism. You can't blame the puppets. You have a religion that makes God out to be the wicked thing one could imagine. Every evil, that was thought up and done was all caused by God according to calvinism. How can you follow this perverted demonic doctrine. Calvinism is contradictory satanic doctrine.
I ask the Elect; how do you know you’re Elect? What if you are one of those that try knowing God, but you were not chosen before birth, and in the end you hear “Depart, I never knew you?” Or rather; I never CHOSE you.
nicely played, John Calvin on John 3.16 ... that's just funny, if it wasn't so tragic comic... 😅 the main problem is that Jeff Durbin does not like that you point out the implications of his Calvinism, they are offended by their own systematic... that's funny....
I am not a Calvinist and I'm perfectly "comfortable" with a God who does all that He pleases. Here's something that pleases God: "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was WELL-PLEASED through the foolishness of the message preached to SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE." (1 Corinthians 1:21) Sounds like Calvinism wants to have its "cake" and eat it too. There is a failing within the system to recognize that the presupposition of divine determinism (which is a philosophy) ACTUALLY teaches "against" Calvinism, if I'm to believe what brother Jeff is saying. If God has predestined whatsoever things that come to pass then that's either true or it isn't. If it is, it doesn't matter what ANYBODY does because ultimately God has His way and ONLY those things that He predestined come to pass. It is a failure to take this presuppositional philosophy out to it's logical conclusions. When this is done, when one stretches out and tests this PHILOSOPHY and takes it out to its logical conclusions, that one can see how inconsistent it is with Scripture.
Hey leighton, we are christians from belgium and we thank you for your effort to expose calvinism...we are blessed by your arguments and teachings and your christian attitude...God bless you for your ministry...
LF is eye opening for all Christians,i admire him.🎉❤
A Christian who emphasises God's good and caring love for the whole world. How sad that LF is a breath of fresh air. May we all do better!
@@luthlexor123 and yet most of the whole world ends up in hell. 💯 🙂 Flee from Lf
Ps Durbin I hold you in high esteem as I've benefited from your ministry at large.I find it strange scolding Dr Flowers for acting childish when you never take time to talk to your mentor Dr White who has a very condescending retorts about Dr Flowers at a time I wasn't even following the man yet his demeaning dismissal of his position compelled me to go listen to Dr Flowers and I was unchained from the Calvinism prison.
Also check out William lane craig and Mathematician John Lennox. Great minds.
Good word, brother. Very clear explanation of both views. Letting both sides speak for themselves leaves nothing to wonder about.
God is good and so loving to have provided salvation for every sinner and draw all men to come.
Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Sad that many resist His drawing.
Jeff and James have lost so much respect because they can't engage others without misrepresenting or presupposing. More and more people are seeing it.
A-You miss represented me. B-Could you tell me how?
A-Stop being dishonest. B-I'm playing your words.
A-You're unwilling to engage with me. B-You're welcome to explain yourself.
Is person A or person B more likely to be a good faith interlocutor.
It is absolutely ridiculous how both him and JW does this to LF. They are master projectors
Isn't it so obvious?
@@Manban-ed2ic Apparently it's not so obvious to everyone.
@@michaelnewswanger2409 - A saying comes to mind, something along the lines of -It Is difficult to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends on his not understanding It...
@@johnknight3529 it doesn't need to be his livelihood it could also be his pride.
"Mary had a little lamb. That sounds like Calvinism." - Jeff D.
"Twinkle, twinkle, little star. That sounds like Calvinism." - Jeff D.
Excellent theological exegesis of the nursery rhyme Mr Durbin. Thank you, I know, I am the "I can" of calvinism. I CAN find calvinism in ANYTHING!
Thank you for your ministry Dr. Flowers!
Hey, Dr. Flowers, I just brought your new book. I also bought it in the audio format so I can listen on the go. I love your content. Keep up the great work.
I can't understand why some Calvinists paint you as being a jerk. You are very respectful and considerate the vast majority of the time (no one is perfect). They are triggered by you for some reason so they have to try to make you look bad. Probably because you bring up valid flaws in their beloved systematic that they cant defend.
Thank you, Dr. Flowers for your wonderful work! I truly appreciate this video. You have allowed me to CLEARLY understand the error from Apologia Studios related to your defense of John 6.
Please keep up the great work because there are many of us out here who depend on it. God bless!!!
I would argue that part of the reason you may have been blocked from Apologia was not only because they don't want to hear anything other than what they already believe, but also, and perhaps more importantly, they don't want any of their followers to hear what you have to say.
@flynnhuseby3431: Absolutely spot on! Durbin does not want his followers to hear Leighton's position/argument. The "why," is obvious.
There will never be a cordial and casual lunch with Leighton.
Setting doctrinal beliefs aside, emotional maturity matters.
I walk away from any preacher teacher who repeatedly behaves poorly toward others.....even if we share identical beliefs.
@@sheilasmith7779 Sheila, this is the cult of Calvinism at work. For Calvinism, think Scientology.
I was irresistibly drawn to this channel . Your ministry is appreciated. I'm following this channel for life, so so good 👍
Jeff Durbin won’t come on your show or invite you to his, because you would expose them in real time. They know you can hold your own, and are scared you will enlighten their listeners. They only invite people who they know are no real threat to their followers.
Bingo
100%.
Who Can't? If you're a Calvinist show where it says before the foundation of the world in Romans 9? Because I read it
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
In the womb she was told “The older will serve the younger.” that's God's sovereign election that the older brother Esau will serve Jacob. Has nothing to do with salvation. Esau never did serve Jacob either so much for the sovereign election of God. Time to come home God's knocking
@@Davian_James
Kind of like what a cult does. " Don't read any literature unless it's from us!"🤢
@@jolookstothestars6358 what's sad is they actually attack Leighton personally when he offers them an invite to discuss it.
Best line @ 1:05:38
"Yes, the man Jesus Christ, who didn't step on His enemies in order to glorify Himself, but laid down his life for His enemies..."
I feel so sorry for durbin I remember when he use to teach the Gospel. Now he mocks those going to Hell instead of loving them.
Let’s get Jeff and Leighton on a podcast. Would love to see it!!
And Leighton would love to participate. And don't hold you're breath.
@@williammarinelli2363 William, could Durbin get through the podcast without 90% of his comments being insults and snarky sarcasm?
Mr. Flowers,
Thank you for all your content! I find great encouragement in your videos. I too have had these kind of back and forths with orher Christians who behave similar to Durbin and White. The way you handle it is refreshing. I have accepted that I can't win over everyone and not all people can be rational and reasonable. If this was going on in your personal life I would suggest you part ways or get some breathing room between you and these discussions. But in your case, this is a public discourse, and your response videos are helping others and exposing errors. Keep up the good work!! Blessings!!
Leighton i could listen to you almost all day😉 because I believe what you are doing is so important. I have learned so much and continue to learn. Thank you!
I love you, man. Father God bless & keep you & your loved ones always, Dr. Flowers!!!
When I first started to listen to you I couldn’t last more than thirty minutes before my mind would just go blank now I enjoy listening all day to your videos, keep fighting the good fight brother leighton
You have encouraged me so much Leighton!! You are not unfair or contentious at all. It never ceases to amaze me how people interpret things. Jeff Durban and James White and even John MacArthur can really get me discouraged by some of the way they say things. If I didn’t know better, I would get the impression God is a nasty control Freak!! I just cannot imagine our loving eternal God being like that!! If God was actually like that, Christianity just contradicts itself all over the place. To say these things add confusion is an understatement. This is why I love your ministry. Your like a drink of fresh water in a Calvinistic desert.🌵I think a lot of this comes down to intellectual honesty. They have to resort to logical fallacies because their position isn’t theologically defensible in the end…
Dr. Flowers you have messed with his hero James white so he is hurt.
"I am of James White." - Jeff Durbin
I think the correct term is idol.
I think the "human shield" might be most apropos . .
06:27 Also known as he doesn't agree with me.Therefore he must be misrepresenting me
how sad to have JW as a hero. LOL
Jeff blocked you on twitter because he was predestined to block you. Joking! He blocked you in order to ignore your points of contention. Great video Dr Flowers ❤
I am loving your channel!
Thank you for the detailed responses to the ongoing Calvinist debate.
I'm learning so much from you!
So disappointing how many people I once respected have turned out to be subscribers/peddlers of this messed up theology!
It's a logical fallacy to think that mankind is "morally culpable" for sin, If he was already rejected by his God before time began and never given the chance to repent.
I have thought about Calvinism alot in the last couple of years, because I was trying to figure out where a church that I attended during covid (which turned out to be engaging in stealth calvinism) was coming from. My understanding is owed in part to Leighton Flowers and his guests, but mainly looking at favorite calvinist proof texts. My reaction to the John 6 debate is as follows.
It is a mishandling of scripture, to take a passage, such as Jo 6:44-45, that is not exhaustive in its explanation, even in its immediate context, and that does not explicitly state a doctrine to which you hold, and press that passage into service as a proof text for your doctrine. With such texts it is necessary to, as Leighton did, take into consideration all of scripture, in making an interpretation of the ambiguous one. This is one of the first lessons you learn in bible college. Interpret scripture with scripture.
Also White and other Calvinists have a propensity of shoehorning proof texts into their systematic theology. In so doing they often completely ignore the first century rabbinical/Judaic means of teaching that Jesus obviously employs. Anyone who is familiar with the Gospels, will understand that Jesus circles around with various parables and statements taking another pass at the concepts for his rather slow disciples, so that eventually they get a cumulative understanding of what he's teaching. This is well understood as a rabbinical style of teaching.
Calvinists tend to think in greek, categorical, and post enlightenment ways that are wooden and quite frankly, self serving. Though they argue that expositional teaching is a big deal for them, calvinists routinely display ignorance of, or choose to ignore such cultural-historical understandings that would aid interpretation.
This is not surprising, given that they are completely committed to a French lawyer of the 16th century (Calvin) who, in turn, is devoted to a 5th century bishop ignorant of the original languages and had deep gnostic influences (Augustine). Calvinists are also committed to various European confessions, codified doctrine, which they frequently quote and teach systematically in catechisms. Presuppositions determining Bible interpretation? ... ill-advised.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura I'm sure you're probably aware of it but Dr. Ken Wilson, an expert on Augustine and the patristic Fathers, would beg to differ. See his interviews on Soteriology 101. Very interesting. Trigger warning; it will make you uncomfortable.
“And here just in, you were listening to ‘the college mind in effect’ where you find out new information, and act as though your mind has superior levels of intelligence, yet say silly causal phrases”
@@ZachFish- incorrect. Years of ministry experience. Dealt with Calvinists trying to convert me from a long way back. I have experienced stealth Calvinism firsthand. I have experienced the smug sense of superiority of people who think they are deeper thinkers with knowledge of deeper doctrines. Oh... just wait a minute... I'm experiencing it right now! ... PS I think you meant casual not causal.
@@martinfroelich7193 Being experienced with reformed soteriology doesn’t really mean much, seeing as humans have all sorts of backgrounds and end up believing different things.
The whole “Calvinist just take a verse and twist it out of context” point, along with the whole last section, and the end of your comment, I would say there’s definitely an emotional block toward Calvinism. (Couldn’t care less if you’re convinced of an Arminian, Calvinist, Catholic, or Provisionist view tho).
@@ZachFish- No emotional block man. What are you my shrink? Just noting the tendency of Calvinists to be cagy and puffed up. I'm ready to believe what the scriptures teac, and they don't teach Calvinism. Determinism makes God a monster. And double predestination is not only something the God revealed in scripture would ever do, it is despicable. It renders all of the thousands divine calls for man to repent, to obey, to love to believe and to trust -at best nonsensical, at worst
You can tell Calvinists by and large have surrendered their own sense-making to various authorities, and wrapped it in a guise of piety and claims that they have the highest view of God.
They invent their own nonbiblical definitions of God's sovereignty, predestination and election.
They could care less about the justice and love of God if they are hardcore hyper Calvinists, or they have resigned themselves to living in the cognitive dissonance of "Compatiblism".
Whenever someone resorts to this logic it reveals their lack of argument.
"And they shall all be taught of God. That sounds like Calvinism." - James W.
The only way to accurately represent Jeff Durbin is to agree with him. Convenient.
no it’s to actually learn and speak about what Calvinism is… which flowers can’t do
@Veltresworld Impossible to do with a Calvinist sophist because they're married to emotionally impactful language for rhetorical purposes rather than the concepts the language is describing. To "understand Calvinism" is to recite their exact rhetoric, not to lay out a concept. This is because they're afraid of how monstrous the concept is to most people removed from their favorable presentation of it. It's a meta form of question begging.
@@Mikey11001 buddy there is no monstrous concept within calvinism☠️. every single concept within calvinism is backed up by hundreds of verses. it’s been around since before the early Church Fathers. every video i see of flowers he appeals to his feelings instead of the actual debate at hand. for example look at the debate over john 6. Flowers brought up babies dying when it had nothing to do with the debate. flowers is still a brother in Christ but man i cannot stand this guy…
@Veltresworld Most people view the idea of God creating most humans for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever with nothing they can do about it to be monsterous. Your response to this will be either I don't understand Calvinism, which really means you want it framed in a more positive way for rhetorical purposes, which proves my first post correct. Or, your response will be that I am dependent on my emotions. Which is nonsense because if our moral intuitions are not on some level a reflection of God's character, then the Bible makes no sense when it uses terms like love, hate, or justice without defining them. It presupposes an intuitive understanding of these concepts within humans. How do you know when the Bible talks about love, it isn't talking about doing things like torturing a puppy 8 hours a day? Because of your moral intuitions. For the same reason, the reflexive outrage people have at the idea of determinism is a valid objection to Calvinism; humans simply understand it isn't just.
@@Mikey11001 Very wrong misrepresentation again!!! Clearly you have not read any church fathers writings or any creeds and confessions LOL. We calvinists don’t believe God created most humans to get tortured 😭. Most humans go to hell because they have all SINNED against God. you know the verse, “the wages of sin is death”. We humans DESERVE death. Lam 3:39, “why should a living man complain about the punishment of his sin?” Who are you to complain about the sin that nonbelievers and as-well as believers deserve? Literally read John 6:44. nobody can come to the Father unless he draws(or chooses) him. all who are chosen will be raised up on the last day. If God drew every single person to him every single person would be saved (universalism) (heresy). Obviously not everyone is Christian which means God has not drawn every single person. there’s no way around John 6:44. Unless your willing to admit that all who are drawn to God are saved you have to admit not everyone is drawn. It’s VERY unjust for God to send some people to hell. it would only be just if God sent us ALL TO HELL. we all deserve to go to hell. That’s why God has mercy on some of us. And chooses us even though we don’t choose him(John 15:16)
Disagree with both theologies but it is clear that LF is more consistent in his approach and behavior.
So with what theology do you hold regarding salvation? I myself think the term "provisionist" is quite cringe. I would prefer "orthodox", as that is the way the church unanimously agreed on for salvation for 1500 years (even after the great schism of 1054 AD). With both the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believing that it is a combination of both God drawing us, and us choosing Him, which is continued on today with the baptists, methodists, RC, EO, etc etc
I do believe the logic of an all powerful God doing His will as a Calvinists does but I believe He wishes none to perish so I don't believe in an Eternal Hell. I say believe but my beliefs shift I just pursue truth and listen to all sides and am hopefully my research in Total Reconciliation (aka Christian Universalism) is correct. I actually think LF has more holes in his theology scripturally and logically but his behavior is consistent and the other sides mocking and mischaracterizations is lame. That part about the thumbnail... Lol... Wow... Jeff lost me on that one.
One example from history on my current beliefs.
Frank Schwedes Patristic Apocatastasis (from Acts 3:21) believes Jesus will win all people back, come Hell or high-water. God, through Jesus Christ, will ultimately rescue and convince ALL to receive their rebirth, even if it is after, as the church father Origen described, much "gnashing of teeth," prolonged emotional anguish, and stubborn mental resistance. Many will hold out for extended periods of time in this "outer darkness," but all will eventually experience "coals of cathartic conviction" and repent. They will finally see that against an irresistibly virtuous God there is no eternal defense. As the lies are burned away, every soul will come to itself and behold this champion truth-- Jesus Christ is God's rescuing love.
@@kevinjypiter6445 "So with what theology do you hold regarding salvation?" I think St. Clement said it well in 1 Clement 32, "And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever." Too often, I think we start thinking it is our wisdom and understanding that save us. It is not." The Gospel is not Calvinism, nor Provisioning, nor Orthodox, nor Catholic, nor Lutheran, nor any other man-made tradition. It is in Christ and through Chist and for Christ, alone. Jesus, "How will they know you are MY disciples?" If you LOVE one another. Yet, we call each other the most horrid things in the name of defending man's best attempts of trying to understand "how" and "when" God saves us.
No sir
When it comes to Calvinist these two guys Jeff and James are very arrogant when it comes to their Calvinist views.
Jeff isn’t as bad as James but when Calvinism comes into play he is.
Neither of them can prove Calvinism without twisting scripture and leaving out scripture.
They love to make out like those who oppose Calvinism just don’t know scripture and they dismiss any other view.
The most amazing thing about this is man is unable to do anything without grace.
Until you can humble yourself to believe that, you are kicking against the goads..
I know it sounds like a treacherous painful thing..
But do it with an open heart and see with new eyes.
@@koraegis correct, no one can come to Christ without grace.
God showed us that Grace when Jesus died and was raised for the sins of the world.
That is our Grace. We in turn must, as Ephesians 1:13 says, hear the gospel that Grace and believe. When we do, it states just like in several places in scripture, we will be saved.
Listening to Durbin “respectfully” mock the provisionist view grieves me. I’m newer coming out of Calvinism and there are still days I have doubts especially being a member at my reformed church. All that to say, it grieves me to think of when we all enter eternity and meet each other there, stand face to face with our savior, if Calvinism is false, the things they are making fun of will feel dreadful if they find out they were wrong and held so strongly to such an opposing view of God’s love and provision to all people. I can only imagine the sorrow. It’s days like today where I long for the day we all know the truth and there’s no more division between brothers.
Check out JA Medder's book Humble Calvinism. He's a Calvinist, writing to Calvinists about Calvinists and how they should be MORE humble and respectful.
Durbin is your typical arrogant calvinist...really thinks he's a big deal
Eh. I think he was pretty charitable. He's at least trying to treat Leighton like a brother in Christ.
@@luthlexor123how is questioning Leighton's integrity charitable?
@@bwc6520 Because it's just part of debating. Leighton questions their integrity all the time.
For the record, I think Leighton is awesome. I just don't Jeff was some huge ass here.
@@luthlexor123 I haven't heard Leighton question their integrity, at least not in the way his was questioned. I don't agree that what Jeff said (about Leighton's integrity) has anything to do with the topic they're disputing; which was what the early "Church Fathers" supported in their writings. I think Leighton was earnest in his critique.
The attitude and arrogance of Calvinists is like that of your typical leftist.
Durbin is such a disappointment. So much courage. So little understanding.
he doesn't have the courage to come on the show.
Pretty sure he has invited dr flowers before at least I’ve seen clips of it
Absolutely, my thoughts exactly. I admire Jeff's courage and dedication, especially on abortion, but he is so wrong on soteriology.
@@zzevonplant Yes. some of the strongest people against abortion are Roman Catholic.
Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Cults like Calvinism only survive in echo chambers, that's why Dustbin will never allow you on his program to correct his religious beliefs.
Well, Leighton has never said “I refuse to respond, listen or give them the time of day, to White or Durban because they are mean and have no integrity.”
I haven't seen Leighton before, but I stopped wanting to really watch Apologia because it seemed he was quick to be the judge of someone being not on the faith and just writing them off.
They both definitely lack basic integral functioning.
That would actually be better, But it’s much worse, they claim their belief system actually justifies their personal attacks and condescending attitudes.
@@atyt11 that's true, it is a scary thing to use the Scriptures in such a way to tear people down. Seems like Jesus had some strong words for Pharisees doing this in the New Testament
The more I listen to Jeff Durbin the less I am impressed with his ability to have original thought. At least as far as Calvinism goes, he seems to simply regurgitate all of the Calvinists talking points without giving any real logical or exegetical reason for it. He just reads and listens to his Calvinists mentors and then never seems to think critically about what he's taught.
Great video Dr Flowers, you expose these false teachings
All Calvinists theologians want you to pretend their immutable decree is passive, while men committing these decreed sins of God, are active.
They argue that man is 100% at fault for their sins and worthy of damnation, while simultaneously teaching that man has 0% ability to do anything outside God's immutable decree.
When you expose them and show them their logical flaws, that man can do nothing outside God's immutable decree, including sinning-- therefore God is 100% at fault for these sins -- Calvinists immediately blameshift, gaslight, label, belittle, scoff & claim intellectual superiority because you REFUSE TO PRETEND their immutable decree should be ignored.
You have too much Biblical, theological ammunition for Jeff Durbin -- "he's appealing to emotion!!!" while ignoring your Biblical & logical arguments is all he can mustard.
well said. Thank you.
You left out 'doublespeak' . . (but I love the misspelling of muster at the end ; )
Yes the TULIP merry go-round.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura - I do not see the initial comment of this thread as an "objection", but as a series of observations. (Rather astute and apropos observations it seems to me, if a bit presumptuous in some places.)
I suspect you see it as an objection, because you don't want to see it as an accurate reflection of a pointless belief system, that serves no useful purpose in service of our Lord.
@SolaAndTotaScriptura - "... I think it's safe to say it's an objection."
Me too! That's just what I was trying to say that "I suspect" . . Apparently too clumsily, my apologies.
"I affirm God is causally responsible for human decisions, but that is not a problem from "inside calvinism"."
I've noticed, trust me, but it's a problem for me (and others it seems clear).
"If you have an argument for why libertarian (self-determined, categorical) free will is necessary and biblical, I am happy to hear it.)"
I take it you mean you 'would be' happy to hear such an argument. And I can believe you would be, because it would allow you to continue to avoid addressing the observations this thread is based on. (Which is to say you would be happy to change the subject ; )
It seems so clear that what you’re saying is obvious with no contradictions and they’re the ones who have to run roughshod all through the text to come to a conclusion. Just listening to you I clearly understand what you’re conveying, and what you say they’re doing is exactly what they’re doing.
I'm fifteen minutes into this. I'm just now watching. I was busy doing something which prevented my watching those first fifteen minutes, but I was listening.
I have zero previous knowledge of Jeff Durban. My impression of him based on those first fifteen minutes is that he is consumed with anger. He sounds as if he has a level of anger which one finds characteristic of people who have Cluster B personality disorder. I'm not a doctor, and if I were, I couldn't make a diagnosis based on those fifteen minutes, but man, that guy is just being eaten alive by his anger.
A cluster what personality?
@@lonelyguyofficial8335 Cluster B. That's the official term. Search it.
I've never heard a proper response to these arguments from calvinists. All I hear is them restating calvinism by making two conflicting claims at the same time, and gaslighting the audience into thinking that the blatant contradiction is Biblical.
Augustine and Calvin had to eliminate ANY voluntary, autonomous action of humans.....except bad human actions, those actions are not voluntary.
"Come, let us reason together."
it's extremely sad that people who claim to be a Christian even entertain Calvinism for 1 second as a viable Biblical doctrine.
It seems like a lot of Calvanists have a deep sense of pride in thinking that they are chosen by God, arbitrarily. I, too, believe Christ's atonement is for all (the world), it's just a matter of those repenting and believing in Christ thus becoming born again. Leighton, I love what you do in sharing and defending your Christian views and represent well those who aren't Calvanist. I think you are mature in your ways and it is a shame Jeff Durbin seems to have taken offense by you and doesn't want to debate/discuss with you. I, too, think Jeff is a cool, dude!!
I never understood presuppositional apologetics. It always sounded like circular reasoning to me. When I was doubting my faith, it was evidential apologetics that helped strengthen my faith. Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell were atheists trying to disprove Jesus and in the process became Christians. Yes, the Holy Spirit was also working on them, but I believe he works on all people. He may use our minds to bring us to faith. For others, through miracles. For others, from Christ like love from Christians.
There is a serious problem in modern discourse where people seem to think that if they say words in response to someone's point that equals a refutation. Refutation is only refutation where it disqualifies the basis for the belief. Refutation take time and effort, it is not simply restating what you believe.
agreed and....Mocking, personally attacking, straw-manning and being just downright mean is a sign of ignorance and/or immaturity.
@@atyt11And evidence of a weak argument.
Jeff Durbin is well aware of that. He likes the rhetorical impact of calling responses refutations. Emotional manipulation and dishonest rhetoric are common among Calvinists.
Who is at fault when a Christian FAILS to read?
Often, Romans 3: 10-18 is cited as proof of Total Depravity. Paul is quoting O.T. to his audience, jews familiar with the O.T. Do Christians then read, Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53: 1-3? No.
They read, "There is none who does good," and assume it means all human beings, when the passages specifically states, "the fool." Who is the fool? "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."
Whether it's Flowers, Durbin or White, or our pastor, WE are responsible to read and study scripture.....and not expect the Cliff Notes of the bible be delivered to us.
Calvinism wants to always win; REAL Christians want to establish the TRUTH. That's the difference.
One of my favorite writers said it this way: THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE; SO GOD GAVE THEM UP, AND NOW THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE.
God blinds and hardens because men blind and harden.
A Calvinists accusing you of misrep is the best example of a gaslighter. The bottomline why they don’t accept the free will stance is because they misrep FW proponents to be claiming salvation because of their effort.
Not one true FW believing Christian will ever say it is because of him why he was saved.
The flipside of this is the Calvinists misrep that we don’t give glory to God, and they alone do.
Leighton, you are so very clear and easy to understand. I am not sure why these Calvinists keep stating things you clearly don't believe. Jeff is a smart guy, It makes you wonder how he can believe such nonsense. You Leighton were once a Calvinist, but you wanted to know the truth even if it went against your current beliefs. Does this mean God decided to decreed you from being a reprobate into a Calvinist. Then some years later decided to decree you back to a reprobate as a provisionalist to expose calvinism?!
The bit where they poke fun at Flowers for paraphrasing John 3:16 is extremely cring. Bad look for Durban and very disingenuous.
Jeff from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I find it so interesting that Jeff Durban is more concerned about his looks than the actual disagreement ,pretty sad. But he looks like someone who's very concerned about his looks.
I guess I just need some extra strength Calvinal for Jeff!!!😂
There is nothing consistent in Calvinism. Calvinism is STUPID. I just find it laughable that Durbin suggests that it is Leighton that is lacking in integrity. The guy needs to go look in a mirror.
I'm now more and more inclined to go beyond what Leighton is saying, and don't take Calvinistic leaders as even offering the same gospel. It is a cult, and not even a consistent cult.
If the god of Calvinism is in charge of everything, then it is even his fault when the saints don't persevere to the end. But the way perseverance often gets put is as though it is the person who has failed, which couldn't be true if the god of Calvinism were the real God.
Amen, one body many parts. Calvinists reformers need called out , most especially their leaders and propagators.
@@truthseeker5698 Exactly. St Paul in Romans contrasts faith and works but Calvinists want to pretend that if we exercise faith that would be the same as a work of righteousness - they end up teaching a different gospel.
Jesus says he will lose none of those the Father gives him as the Good Shepherd. Praise God that he saves us and keeps us.
@@beaZ136 by those who place their faith in Him. Stewardship/belief matters.
HOW STUPID IS CALVINISM?
S - Sovereignty of God - This is the point that is usually missed out in the Calvinist's 5 points. Calvinism teaches that god has to micromanage every tiny detail of existence and cannot allow any real agency to any other being human or spiritual.
T - Total Depravity/Inability - This teaches that not even God himself could enable man (a human being) to understand and accept God's offer of grace and salvation for themselves. Either God makes them believers or they are damned from before they were born.
U - Unconditional election - This is the idea that God has chosen those who will be saved, made them elect, from before they were born and that God chooses them regardless of any faith that they have of themselves or receive from God. Basically this teaches that you do not receive grace and express faith to be saved but that God must regenerate and save you before you can experience faith. This goes against Sola Fide or faith alone.
P - Perseverance of the Saints - In Calvinism again God can only give assurance of eternal life to the saints (believers) by controling every detail of existence. to use a chess analogy God has to play both sides of the table to win. He cannot assure His will by being the chess champion but only by being a chess cheat.
I - Irresistible Grace - this is saying that God never allows his grace to be resisted. So when Jesus could not do great works in places where people did not believe in Him it was because God didn't want to, despite what the text may infer. In fact we can choose to accept or resist the grace that God gives to us.
D - Delimited Atonement - God has already chosen those who will be saved and those who will be lost and nothing humans can do or neglect doing can make any difference to the eternal destinies that God has already chosen for people from before they have done anything right or wrong.
Even worse, the way some Calvinists use Perseverance of the Saints means that there is no real assurance of salvation in the Calvinist system either. Only if you manage to persevere to the very end, without backsliding can you be sure of salvation, or anyone else be sue of your salvation. In the end, it depends on your WORKS to the end to prove that you are saved at all.
Jeff Durbin is hiding because he cannot handle the truth...Amazing work Mr Flowers
While talking to a friend about this video, he stated this. "Flowers just told Jeff, that if Jeff didn't like something Leighton had stated, that Jeff should take it up with God since God predetermined everything. I call that game, set, match." I call it game-set-match x 1000.
Looks like durbin is James White jr. They sound like the same person. What gives them away, besides their ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture, is that they run from confrontation. They call names, they misrepresent, they dismiss and demean, but they refuse to defend their views face to face, one on one, in real time. LF has a standing invitation and practically begs them to debate their viewpoints in real time with him, but they refuse. Do they ever extend the same invitation to him? Of course not. That is how you know unequivocally that they are frightened. They are afraid of Leighton, and they are afraid that he is right. Because if he is, they are out of business so to speak. They have built their christian existence around Calvinism rather than around Christ.
Your doing great Leighton
I’m not a Calvinist but I do believe that our flesh came from the same flesh that Adam and Eve had and their flesh was condemned to die. Therefore we are living with a flesh that is condemned. We need Jesus Christ to save us. If not there could be people that died never sinning and would got to Heaven and they would never call Jesus their Savior. Am I wrong, Dr Flowers? 🤔
Durbin is anything but correct and fair . He's ridiculous and I'm seriously biting my tongue . He's a blind ideologue and proves it constantly.
My experience with Calvinists and those who are reformed is that they have an arrogance about themselves, and essentially act as a “brain on a stick.“
The way Durbin laughs about Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world is really sad... it says a lot.
Wow!!!! It is astonishing how inconsistent even some of the most “credible” Calvinists are. Then they criticize us for pointing out their inconsistency.
24:00 Look at how muted the vibe in that studio is. No energy or joy there. Your argumentation is on point and you can see it.
It seems that what bothers them most is the effectiveness of your argument, which isn't because of 'emotions' but because of our intuition for justice.
WE don't have to nuance THEIR position. Ultimately the most effective statements are like this CS Lewis quote:
"The doctrine of Total Depravity - when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing - may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship."
Or this one by Roger E Olson:
“Only a moral monster would refuse to save persons when salvation is absolutely unconditional and solely an act of God that does not depend on free will.”
And let's not forget effective questions. We need a Provisionist version of the 'what is a woman' question.
Leighton, keep going on the offensive. Together with IdolKiller and ProvisionistPerspective and ChurchSplit and others, you are finding out in realtime what works best. And that inspires us to be more effective in the discussion in our own circles!
God is pleased with those that promote sound doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.. God is using flowers to flip tables...
That’s got to be one of the best points I’ve seen .
Leighton said why is God in Calvinism holding out his hands to people has determined to be a reprobate . He’s right . That has to be the biggest contradiction ever .
I, also, deny the false doctrine of "original sin" where a newborn is condemned to eternal punishment because he/she inherits Adam's sin (of serving his wife instead of God.)
A newborn inherits a cursed world (locked away from the tree of life) and physical death.
We also inherit an eternal soul, which is clean and pure, in the image of God. In time, we too, like Adam, make a decision to sin and separate our soul from God.
Spiritual death is a consequence of our personal rebellion against God.
Alas, we need a Messiah! And His immersion in water for a clean soul AND His Gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 and all instances of conversion in the Acts of the Apostles.)
So much bullying when you try to demean another brother! Christians should live a quite life.
Very disappointed in Jeff Durban
It dawned on me that if Calvinism is right then the lgbtlmnop mafia is right, they were born immutably that way and unable to do anything else
Wow what a good point
Jeff and his friend are just telling lies. It is as simple as that.
He takes misrepresentation to a completeky different level.
I like Jeff but I'm disappointed he won't see the truth.
because he's under a harden heart and been given over to his false gospel for not heeding hopefully he repents
White - "Can cows fly?". Flowers - "No, of course not!". White - "What if cows actually do fly? What would that do to your belief that cows can't fly?". Flowers - "Well, if cows could fly then I would be wrong and you would be right." White - "Debate over! My opponent just agreed with me that cows can fly!"
Jeff Durbin is even more arrogant & whiny than his mentor, James White. Sigh...
Apparently these people like White and Durbin hate Gods Love….
After watching the debate, and several discussions/critiques of the debate; regarding John 6:44, I’m wondering nobody voices that the most you can say about the verse is that those who come were drawn. The verse says nothing about those who don’t come. So, at least the possibility exists that those who don’t come might also have been drawn but chose not to come. You can’t get any further within the verse.
God's will is that none should perish. God's will is thwarted by the free will of man. Man will pay, but is free to choose.
Yup 👍 it’s that simple but calvies can’t see that
I don’t care if you’re talking about politics, religion or family matters….the one who blocks and runs has something to hide
We all know why they don’t come on your show. It’s really clear. Kinda like the scriptures.
At 1:03:00 - "He's not like us."
"Let us make man in our image and likeness."
A discussion would be better than a debate. James White is protected by the rules of engagement in a debate format. He I don't think would ever be willing to sit down at a roundtable discussion with you.
Notice how jeff does the James white tap dance Greek acrobatics when he has no argument,jeff says we are made in the "amogo dayee" as if someone how him quoting latin makes is argument win, when the greek has nothing to do with whether he's right or wrong but the clavinist will be like "he sounds so smart" did you hear that latin
What's ironic is that "imago dei" is Latin. 😆 not greek.
Flowers is 💯 right!
Their critique among their own James W club is so obviously dishonest and one sided that Dr. Flowers simple rebuttal of his claims are super easy to follow and true to honest biblical reasoning.
It’s absolutely clear as to why they don’t want a live discussion or debate. 🤦🏻♂️
As far as I am aware, a “rebellion” acts on its own will. If God, under Calvinism, decreed man’s rebellion, it isn’t such. They’re like soldiers following an order/decree that was given.
Leighton regardless of the Calvanism debate I think your view on presuppositonal apologetics is unfortunately mistaken because even people like Jay Dyer who is an Orthodox apologist (he has a soteriology very similar to yours) uses the transcendental argument for God. We all are presuposing basic things in order to function in the world. For example, you presuppose language has meaning in order to debate against Calvanists because if it didn't, what would the point be? If we then argue that there is something that we must presuppose to get things like language having meaning and regularity, ect, then that means that thing must exist, and we would call that thing God. Personally, I think that's a really strong argument.
The reason why Dr.White should have never debated Flowers is because he now has 10 more years of content to go off of like the Romans 9 Debate ..... all we did was add fuel to this fire
30:46 I agree the sin of Adam is conditional upon committing sin, however committing sin is inevitable if you live long enough 😅
Why does all of scripture repeat God's directive that we act/behave in a specific ways, if humans are unable to do so?
The Calvinist fix for this is to claim God will intervene to cause humans to believe.
Dr Flowers, a good point you may have brought up is, when did Esau ever serve Jacob? He never did, it was Israel and Edom.
What I don't understand is per their systematic other really trying to debate is God's determinism, remember it's God who determined you to come against Calvinism but yet they all act like it's a free will decision
Dr. Flowers I love almost all your videos including this one, and I mean no disrespect, but I just thought it was funny...
Around 45:40 you mention the "new hamster confession". I would love to hear a new hamster confession of faith. Honestly those hamsters really need to update their confession.
I still do not understand how and why Calvinists such as Dr. James White and Jeff Durbin are so arrogant!
I wish Calvinists would stop clouding the reasoning space with presupposed Calvinistic lingo distinctives when confronted with basic theological implications on their system.
I'm from the Jeff Durbin, James white, calvinist camp and I came here after watching Durbins video. I gotta be fair, regarding the thumbnail, it's clear this wasnt done to make Durbin look silly or anything like that. You do have plenty of cool thumbnails of Durbin for sure. 😎 I agree this isn't a good reason to write you off or anything like that and I hope Durbin pulls back from that statement.
Anyways, God bless you all over here.
Durbin, as White's 'sidekick' henchman, does what Durbin does best...Gaslighting, Ad Hominem Character assassination and Psycho-social Vampirism.
Why so nice?🤣👊🏼
@@atyt11 Let's hope Durbin hasn't traded one addiction to excitement (ecstasy addiction, martial arts, partying) for another.
@@Spartanthermopylae yup. These guys are not dumb. Yet, somehow they say they believe such conflicting tenets. God controls every thought and deed and you are responsible for the sinful choices God makes for you......?!?!??? Whaaaah?😦😦😦😦
@@atyt11 The world of the Calvinistic Cyborgs.
@@atyt11 Exactly!
I do like a lot of Jeff’s work and ministry (specifically his work on abortion). However, on his view isn’t every aborted baby killed by the decree and will of God?
I’m sorry if the is “feel-a-Jesus” but Jeff should follow his Calvinistic presuppositions to their natural conclusion.
You are correct - the death of aborted babies is not even as evil as the most evil event in history - the torture and murder of God's own sinless son for the redemption of sinners. God the Father, Son and Spirit planned the death of God the Son as the most evil event in human history at the hands of sinful humanity so that sinners could be redeemed.
God explicitly tells us he takes full responsibility for people's suffering in Exodus 4:11-13. "Who makes blind or deaf or lame - is it not I the Lord?" (paraphrase).
Reading provisionist arguments feels like reading people who rail against the God of the Bible who does whatever he pleases in heaven and on earth, and no one can talk back to him or ask "What are you doing" or call him unjust (Daniel 4:35, Romans 9 Esau/Jacob).
We are told to conform our thinking to the Bible - be transformed by renewing our minds. Provisionist arguments sound like human moral arguments, "But that would be wrong or unjust!" "But then God would be responsible for evil!", all the while ignoring that God takes responsibility for evil and these arguments presuppose that God owes us good, rather than us deserving punishment.
@beaZ136 calvinism makes God out to be pure evil. God is the author of sin in calvinism. You can't blame the puppets. You have a religion that makes God out to be the wicked thing one could imagine. Every evil, that was thought up and done was all caused by God according to calvinism. How can you follow this perverted demonic doctrine. Calvinism is contradictory satanic doctrine.
I ask the Elect; how do you know you’re Elect? What if you are one of those that try knowing God, but you were not chosen before birth, and in the end you hear “Depart, I never knew you?” Or rather; I never CHOSE you.
nicely played, John Calvin on John 3.16 ... that's just funny, if it wasn't so tragic comic... 😅 the main problem is that Jeff Durbin does not like that you point out the implications of his Calvinism, they are offended by their own systematic... that's funny....
I am not a Calvinist and I'm perfectly "comfortable" with a God who does all that He pleases. Here's something that pleases God: "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was WELL-PLEASED through the foolishness of the message preached to SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE." (1 Corinthians 1:21)
Sounds like Calvinism wants to have its "cake" and eat it too. There is a failing within the system to recognize that the presupposition of divine determinism (which is a philosophy) ACTUALLY teaches "against" Calvinism, if I'm to believe what brother Jeff is saying. If God has predestined whatsoever things that come to pass then that's either true or it isn't. If it is, it doesn't matter what ANYBODY does because ultimately God has His way and ONLY those things that He predestined come to pass. It is a failure to take this presuppositional philosophy out to it's logical conclusions. When this is done, when one stretches out and tests this PHILOSOPHY and takes it out to its logical conclusions, that one can see how inconsistent it is with Scripture.